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jdobrienHello Ubuntu One'eers!13:42
* jdobrien hides13:43
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* cjwatson waves15:58
cjwatsonI guess this'll be a relatively short release meeting, since the US is celebrating some kind of rebellious colony thing :)15:59
MootBotMeeting started at 10:00. The chair is cjwatson.16:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:00
cjwatson[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-07-0316:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-07-0316:00
dholbachcjwatson: that's really unfair... I mean the UK have much more experience with rebellious colonies! :-P16:00
* dholbach shuts up and leaves :-)16:00
* charlie-tca sends a happy 4th of July to you too16:00
cjwatsondholbach: yeah, *we* should celebrate US independence day ;-)16:00
cjwatsonhi, just getting started, I guess folks will drift in16:01
cjwatson[TOPIC] Actions from previous meeting16:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Actions from previous meeting16:01
pittiat least those who are still working today :)16:01
cjwatsonthere are two kubuntu-netbook items in here16:01
cjwatsonthere's been some progress on kubuntu-netbook (debian-cd merged), but at the moment we're waiting on an RT ticket in order to be able to progress further16:01
cjwatson[LINK] https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=3485216:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=3485216:02
cjwatsonfor those with access16:02
cjwatsonrgreening: did you do anything about test case documentation?16:02
rgreeningcjwatson: no. been busy porting usb-creator for kde16:03
cjwatsonok, I'll just carry those items over then16:04
cjwatsonhopefully we'll have working images by next week16:04
rgreeningthis was something ScottK volunteered me for right?16:04
cjwatsonor images anyway :)16:04
cjwatsonrgreening: I forget16:04
cjwatsonI think it may have been, yeah16:04
rgreening:) Im sure it was16:04
cjwatson[TOPIC] QA Team16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Team16:04
cjwatsonmy agenda was a bit incomplete for you guys, feel free to elaborate :)16:05
henoNot much to report, most people are off16:05
heno8.04.3 SRU testing is on-going. We have been testing ISOs but there have been rebuilds of course. We expect to step that up on Monday16:05
henoThe last automated installs in the HW lab of 8.04.3 were from 20090624.116:05
cr3for both alternate and server (20090624)16:06
cjwatsonfader reported that the bnx2 issue from earlier was resolved now - have we had a full automated install run for karmic since that? I understood it was taking out quite a few machines16:06
henoWe have an intern starting who will help with manual testing of laptops every Friday.  That's been a weak spot earlier.16:06
cr3pending hr, the intern should start as early as next week16:06
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
henolast karmic results are from 20090702.116:06
cr3we're still having problems with bandwidth just to rsync images quickly enough to test. this should be resolved as of July 10th16:07
cjwatson100mb internal links or something?16:08
henoI understand there was some confusion around image version numbers16:08
cjwatsonI think what happened was that the CD image was being synced but the netboot initrd wasn't16:08
henothat we were caching an old image for a week16:08
cr3cjwatson: I've had to compose with a T1 for a long time, it's just not enough16:08
henocr3: was the synching issue resolved?16:09
cr3heno: worked around by not testing desktkop (live cd) images anymore16:09
cr3heno: but the lab is just finally catching up from the backlog today at 4h00 AM16:10
henoalso, the work on metrics-based testing continues16:10
cr3cjwatson: rest assured that everything was being synced properly in the automated environment, both images and initrd. the problem is that some patched manual scripts weren't doing the right thing16:11
cjwatsoncr3: well, synced, used, something like that :-)16:11
cr3cjwatson: so the problem was only encountered when performing ad-hoc manual tests, not otherwise, which should've only affected a few corner cases16:11
cr3for metrics-based testing, we're working on making attachments available to users as a very simple zip file16:12
cjwatsonis karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption still on track for alpha 3? I noted that it seemed to involve some Launchpad changes, and was wondering if those were in16:12
cr3the current users targetted for this feature are Keybuk for bootchart information and kirkland for acpi information.16:12
henocjwatson: I believe the code is ready, but I need to nudge them16:13
heno(the LP team)16:13
cjwatsonright, I imagine they're pretty busy with the open-sourcing16:14
cjwatsonok, thanks16:14
cjwatson[TOPIC] Desktop Team16:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop Team16:14
pittietailled info about RC bug status, planned Karmic changes, and done/planned changes for alpha-3 are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:14
pittiAgain, this week we did not really focus on bugs, but on urgent feature development which other teams depend o16:14
pittiIn particular:16:14
pitti- we got the new gdm into karmic; sorting out some fallout now, but necessary for DX and artwork to provide th16:15
pittiemes and customizations, and for porting fusa and guest session16:15
pitti- packaged gnome-shell in PPA16:15
pitti- finished a working version of automagic-python-builds (dependency of "Application Layer Cake")16:15
pitti- got UbuntuOne file sync packages into karmic16:15
pitti- sorted out gstreamer package dependencies for empathy16:15
pitti- more porting work for Halsectomy16:15
pittiI tested the current desktop CD, and fixed a couple of warts, but by and large it's working; some major bugs remain, of course.16:15
cjwatsongdm: I just heard something today about no more shutdown available without logging out first ...?16:15
pittithat was fixed in a followup gnome-panel upload16:15
cjwatsonah, good16:15
pittisystem menu has these things back for now16:16
pittiit's not the final solution, of course16:16
cjwatsontell amitk before he panics too much :)16:16
pittibut porting our fusa to new gdm will take a bit16:16
pittited's on that16:16
pitticjwatson: done :)16:16
pittiI updated casper for autologin, too16:16
pittiit still breaks keyboard layouts, will tackle that soon16:17
cjwatsonoh, the installer will need updates if autologin has changed16:17
pittiand it has some nasty "greeter gnome-session saving yadayada" dialog, but it's just cosmetical16:17
cjwatson[ACTION] cjwatson to update installer for gdm autologin changes16:17
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to update installer for gdm autologin changes16:17
pitticjwatson: shall I file a bug against ubiquity with the necessary changes?16:17
cjwatsonit's ok, I'll pick it up from casper16:18
cjwatson(it's oem-config too)16:18
pittiI tested the current desktop CD, and fixed a couple of warts, but by and large it's working; some major bugs remain, of course.16:18
pittioops, sorry16:18
pittihttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/casper/trunk/revision/647 I mean16:18
MootBotLINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/casper/trunk/revision/647 I mean16:18
pitti(papercut: two cut/paste areas are confusing)16:19
pittiso, for alpha 3 we still plan to push empathy16:19
pittithe other a3 planned changes are in16:19
cjwatsonI put quite a lot of bugs on your team's list from regressions and the targeted list and such16:19
pittiwe'll get into space issues, but we have some plans for that16:19
pittithat's fine, I'd rather err on the side of caution16:20
cjwatsonbut I don't think many of them were OHMYGODURGENT16:20
pittifortunately we have been spared of total breakers so far16:20
pittierm, of course I mean, our careful planning and engineering avoided them :-P16:21
cjwatsonok, thanks16:22
cjwatsonis anyone here for the mobile team?16:22
cjwatsonlool is at GUADEC16:22
cjwatsonand I assume that davidm is on holiday16:22
cjwatsonwell, the only real thing I had was to nag lool about the toolchain changes, so I guess that can wait16:23
cjwatsonPete said by e-mail that there would be no kernel team representation this week16:23
cjwatsonbug 392709 was the only particular argh item I had there, and I believe that's getting fixed16:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 392709 in linux "[karmic] linux-image 2.6.31-1.13 crashes on boot" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39270916:24
cjwatson[TOPIC] Foundations Team16:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations Team16:24
* cjwatson switches hats16:24
ograif there is anything urgent for mobile, i am here16:24
cjwatsonogra: oh, do you have anything particular you want to report? there's nothing urgent as far as I can see except checking up on the toolchain changes for v616:25
ograwell, the rest of arm is waiting for kernel ...16:25
ograUNR is ongoing properly afaik16:25
ogranothing special16:25
cjwatsonis UNR actually working yet?16:26
* ogra just notes that cjwatsons remark from the beginning isnt true, they cheat and pretend its the 4th today16:26
ograas far as i heard it is16:26
cjwatsonit was waiting for a soyuz cherry-pick, I hadn't checked whether that had happened16:26
ograi dont test it myself, being busy preparing arm for A316:26
ogracurrently i go over the ftbfs list16:27
ograbut gruemaster sounded like UNR would be roughly in shape atm16:27
ograhe is testing it daily16:28
cjwatsonbug 39196416:28
ubottuLaunchpad bug 391964 in soyuz "cron.germinate change for unr seed branch" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39196416:28
cjwatsonI think that might actually have been CPed though, I seem to remember StevenK saying that16:28
ograwell, thats it from my side16:29
cjwatsonas far as the foundations team goes, our list of bugs is a little shorter than usual since I took the opportunity while preparing the agenda to fix some of the things on it ;-)16:30
cjwatsonI need to scare up somebody willing to tackle bug 27706916:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 277069 in libxcb "Slow performance with remote X applications (java, firefox/xul, etc.)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27706916:30
cjwatsonand we have the usual list on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:30
cjwatsonquite a lot of features planned to land for alpha 3 still, none of which I have reason to be concerned about right now16:31
cjwatsonone other thing to mention is that it looks as if we may be making a slightly late move to eglibc16:31
pittioh, so we do16:31
pittiwe all know the discussions, but how much of a "delta" is that actually nowadays?16:31
pittimore like "20 patches" or "rewriting half of it"?16:32
cjwatsonfrom the investigations I've made I don't consider it any riskier than any other merge of glibc from Debian16:32
cjwatsonthe biggest delta is basically #ifdefs, all of which we'll be leaving in their current configuration to the best of my knowledge16:32
cjwatsonthe reason to change is not that it gets us anything particular but that it saves us from having to maintain the glibc packaging ourselves; not following Debian would constitute going it alone16:32
pittiright, full ack, I was just curious how big of an impact that actually is16:33
cjwatsonthere are still a few conversations to be had and a shedload of testing, of course16:33
pittiin debian it seems to have gone virtually unnoticed by many unstable users16:33
cjwatsonright, when I looked that's basically the conclusion I came to as well16:33
cjwatsonlots of heat but very little actual difficulty16:34
pittijust a single 'e' in debian/changelog :-P16:34
cjwatsonI just don't want to be faced with having to do that as well as other routine merges at the start of an LTS cycle ...16:34
cjwatsonhell, if that bothers people we can call it glibc with a larger than usual patch :P16:34
cjwatson2.10 (e or otherwise) is more of a change, particularly with this single-request stuff in resolv.conf16:35
cjwatson(ipv4/ipv6 mungery)16:35
cjwatsonoh, heh, that's already been backported to Debian (e)glibc ;-)16:35
cjwatsonanyway, more news on that as it happens16:36
pitticjwatson: btw, is a dpkg merge still on the plan?16:36
cjwatsonoh, yes, that's rising up my guiltmeter16:36
cjwatsonaiming that for first thing next week16:36
pittiI was just wondering if I should sponsor that dpkg build-dep fix (the correct one from Debian), or whether that'd be moot16:37
cjwatsonsorry that's late16:37
cjwatsonmoot, I think16:37
cjwatsonassign it to me if you want :-)16:37
cjwatsonRick said there'd be no server team representation here today due to the holiday16:37
cjwatsonScottK said he'd be on holiday and that there was no significant news on the universe front so he didn't intend to find a replacement to attend; he also mentioned that KDE 4.3rc1 is now in karmic (and jaunty ppa)16:38
cjwatsonthat said if there are any MOTUs around with stuff to discuss at the release-team level, feel free :-)16:38
cjwatson[TOPIC] Known regressions16:41
MootBotNew Topic:  Known regressions16:41
cjwatsonI put most things that looked interesting from that list on individual team agendas16:41
cjwatsondesktop and kernel for the most part, though I hoovered up a few other bits and pieces16:41
cjwatsonanything else people think is being missed?16:42
pittifine for me16:43
cjwatsonhttp://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2#Known%20issues only had one unfixed bug, which I put on the server team's agenda and have now release-targeted too (the likewise-open5 thing)16:43
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2#Known%20issues only had one unfixed bug, which I put on the server team's agenda and have now release-targeted too (the likewise-open5 thing)16:43
cjwatson[TOPIC] ISO size16:44
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO size16:44
pittiI expect a3 to get more, with all the new crack we put in :)16:44
cjwatsonmostly we're good here, but the DVD is HUMUNGOUSLY oversized16:44
cjwatsonas in .5GB16:44
pittiwell, desktop CDs are only within limit because they have 0 langpacks16:44
cjwatsonmm, there's 8MB or so free on i386; but yes16:45
pittithe plan from my side is (1) split gnome help to langpacks (Julien says it should work in ~ 2 weeks)16:45
cjwatsonoh, that's actually going to happen this LP cycle?16:45
pittiand (2) drop gimp help if we need more space16:45
* artir suggest a LivePen by default \0/16:45
cjwatsonthat sounds like a good plan of record16:45
pittiwe need more space for all the U1 stuff, empathy, couchdb, etc.16:45
pittiand of course some langpacks16:46
cjwatsonartir: let's just say this has been discussed ad infinitum :)16:46
pittiso I guess gimp help is first against the wall (and 20 MB win)16:46
artircjwatson: it'll happen! it's just matter of time :P16:46
pittiit falls back to online help with no effort16:46
cjwatsonkeeping within size is good for our users16:46
pittiand enforces a good and non-crufty design16:46
cjwatsonit removes the temptation for bloat16:46
artirand what about replacing gimp with nathive...16:46
cjwatsonwhich is ever-present16:47
pittiartir: -> ubuntu-devel-discuss@16:47
pittiany idea about the Kubuntu CDs?16:47
cjwatsonin terms of size?16:48
pittithey seem to have plenty of size16:48
pitti(no langpacks right now)16:48
cjwatsonthey have oodles free, yes16:48
pittiI meant, are there plans for adding large new stuff?16:48
cjwatsonoh, that I don't know16:48
cjwatsonyou would know better than I :)16:48
pittiok, nevermind16:48
cjwatsonwant an action to check that up with Riddell?16:48
pittiI hoped rgreening or other Kubuntu folks would know16:48
pittiI'll ask him16:49
cjwatson[TOPIC] pitti to check with Riddell whether any Kubuntu ISO size events are in the offingg16:49
MootBotNew Topic:  pitti to check with Riddell whether any Kubuntu ISO size events are in the offingg16:49
cjwatson[TOPIC] ISO size16:49
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO size16:49
cjwatson[ACTION] pitti to check with Riddell whether any Kubuntu ISO size events are in the offing16:49
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to check with Riddell whether any Kubuntu ISO size events are in the offing16:49
cjwatsonthe DVD seems to be oversized largely due to an enormous squashfs16:49
pittiso we need to unseed stuff?16:49
cjwatsonso we may have to rethink the language-support policy there; this will be easier once language-support is reorged16:50
pittiso far we used to pretty much rename "supported" to "dvd"16:50
cjwatsonwell, no, supported has more than that, we split the dvd seed down a while back16:50
cjwatson[ACTION] cjwatson to investigate DVD size explosion16:51
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to investigate DVD size explosion16:51
cjwatson[TOPIC] AOB16:51
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB16:51
cjwatsonok, I guess we're done with the quietest release meeting ever, then :)16:54
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:54.16:54
pittithanks everyone16:54
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== nxvl_ is now known as nxvl
* Pricey waves21:56
* jussi01 waves21:56
* nalioth copycats21:57
jussi01Doing well so far...21:57
jussi01Just waiting on Pici now21:59
Tm_Tjussi01: pikku pici21:59
naliothok, folks. welcome to the meeting.22:00
Tm_TConan, this, Conan, urrrgh, decisions22:00
PiciI'm here, but my connection is a bit flaky22:00
* Tm_T shuts up22:00
naliothelky, care to begin?22:00
PiciSo I f I take a few monites to respond, thats why.22:01
Piciminutes even.22:01
boredandbloggingdo we want to use mootbot?22:03
boredandbloggingnot that I know how it works22:03
Priceyelky: Are you here? :)22:03
elkyi am, yes22:04
elkywell, as here as i can be at 7am on a saturday22:05
Seeker`Mootbot is great *cough*22:05
PriceyTop of the agenda is "Change description of the offtopic channels on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat to help dispel misconceptions that they are no-rules channels "22:06
naliothelky: you have the first item on the agenda.  would you like to lead the discussion?22:06
elkyum. some people are trying to use the current description of the offtopic channels in specific as an excuse to be foul and ignore the rules. if they could be changed to null this hurdle to common decency, it'd be great.22:08
elkynalioth's point covers this too, fwiw, so maybe we s hould merge the two22:08
PriceyI don't like that description, "where everything is on-topic"... it isn't...22:08
PriceyHas that always been there?22:08
FlannelPricey: yes22:09
elkyPricey, yes, but misinterpreting/abusing it has become far more popular than it used to be22:10
naliothok, the 2nd item is to get rid of some obsolete channels.  #kubuntu-kde4 has been defunct for a couple of releases now22:10
jussi01nalioth: yeah, that is forwarded, no?22:11
jussi01that can definately be droppedd22:11
naliothit doesn't need to be on the page22:11
naliothforwarded or not22:11
jussi01Ahh, yes, I mustve forgotten to nix it, go ahead, no issues from me22:11
nalioth#ubuntu-powerpc is not an "official" channel, either (and i don't think it needs to be on the page)22:11
PriceyI don't think we need to go through every single channel on that list in this meeting?22:12
elkynalioth, is it used by people?22:12
jussi01I think its useful to be ther22:12
PriceyBut yes, it would be useful for us to clean it up.22:12
naliothas far as the -offtopic descriptions, they do NOT need to say "where anything is on topic"22:12
naliothno, i just wanted to touch on those two in particular22:12
PriceyYep, I really think that should change.22:12
naliothnot saying to get rid of the channels, just to remove their presence from the page22:12
naliothso vote to remove #kubuntu-kde4 and #ubuntu-powerpc from the listing?22:13
PiciIs -powerpc defuct as well?22:13
elkycan we please vote on those individually?22:13
naliothsure.  vote to remove #kubuntu-kde4 from the page ?22:14
nalioththere are 10 people in #ubuntu-powerpc.  vote to remove it's listing from the page?22:14
PriceyIs it still a community supported port?22:14
jussi01yes afaik22:14
naliothyes, it is.22:15
Pricey-1 I say keep it then.22:15
Pici-1, its not hurting anything to keep it available.22:15
jussi01boredandblogging: you still here?22:15
naliothwe're not closing channels here - just removing them from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat22:16
boredandbloggingsorry, desktop on karmic keeps restarting on me22:16
jussi01nalioth: I know, but I still think it should be there22:16
jussi01anyway, how about the wording?22:16
naliothok, keep #ubuntu-powerpc and remove #kubuntu-kde4.  on to the -offtopic wording22:16
Priceyjussi01: on the -offtopic's?22:16
jussi01Pricey: yeps22:17
Pricey"for non-support chatter"?22:17
jussi01sounds good to me22:17
Tm_TPricey: sounds good22:17
naliothas far as i'm concerned, NO #ubuntu-* is a 'general chat zone'22:17
boredandbloggingthats good22:17
nalioth"for Ubuntu-related non-support chatter"22:17
naliothotw, we're back to where we are now22:17
jussi01nalioth: but you can talk non ubuntu related in there22:18
naliothPricey: otherwise22:18
elkyPricey, may i suggest a link to the guidelines somehow? it's the channel that requires the most frequent quoting of it22:18
Priceyelky: a link in that list?22:18
jussi01Maybe something referencing the CoC?22:19
boredandbloggingmaybe put the link right above the table?22:19
elkyPricey, yes, so they lose the logic of 'i didn't scroll down so i didn't read it and hence i should be exempt'22:19
naliothit's already there. in the first paragraph22:19
PiciWould having a separate -offtopic wiki page be useful?22:20
elkynalioth, a reminder wont hurt. i want it to be painfully obvious22:20
PiciSort of like #defocus has one?22:20
naliothno, because we'd end up writing a book, Pici22:20
PriceyThe guideliens are in #ubuntu-offtopic's /topic22:20
PriceyI think that's sufficient.22:20
PriceyAnywhere else is just handy.22:20
elkyPricey, nobody reads topics though22:20
PriceyNot our fault22:20
Priceyand really... all the guidelines are, are common decency, politeness and smiling22:21
elkyPricey, no, but it is our problem.22:21
Priceythere's nothing restrictive in there22:21
Priceyelky: the /topic is the first thing you get when you join a channel... if you don't read that... what else are you going to read?!22:21
naliothyep.  nobody can say they didn't see it.22:21
PriceyShould we be getting ubottu to randomly insert !guidelines during the day?22:21
nixternalquestion: why are you guys voting to remove #kubuntu-kde4 w/o first checking with the Kubuntu crowd on if it is still being used or what not?22:22
jussi01nixternal: I am the channel contact22:22
Priceynixternal: 21:22:48 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Mode lock  : +imntf #kubuntu22:23
Priceynixternal: It is well and truly closed.22:23
naliothnixternal: #kubuntu-kde4 was being used 3 releases ago when kde4 was optional22:23
elkynixternal, we're not deleing the channel, just it's presence in a directory on a wiki page22:23
naliothnixternal: kde4 is now mainstream and support is in #kubuntu22:23
nixternalgotcha, but from now on, please communicate with the respective project for voting on removing anything related to it22:24
Priceyits already closed?22:24
elky...from our team wiki pages?22:24
Tm_Tnixternal: I thought jussi01 covers that?22:24
naliothPricey: evidently since kde4 went mainstream22:24
jussi01nixternal: yes, of course, but as I said, Im the contact, and quite clear on the situation22:24
Priceynixternal: There is no point in it being on our wiki page when the channel is closed? Do we really need to consult with anyone still?22:24
naliothbut yes, nixternal we're discussing https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat22:25
nixternalthat's fine, thought you were voting on removing the channel, didn't realize it was from a "team wiki page"22:25
naliothnixternal: scrollback is wonderful  :)22:25
nixternalya, I was looking at that the other day, it gave me a headache so I quit looking :)22:25
elkyit gives us headaches too22:25
naliothback to the wording of the -offtopic channel listings?22:25
nixternalnalioth: have better things to do than scroll back, just skimmed...i hate tasting the cool aid :p22:25
Tm_T-offtopic indeed needs explanation more than just "non-support"22:26
jussi01Ok, can we move on?22:26
elkyTm_T, do you have a suggestion?22:26
naliothperhaps we can separate out the -offtopic channels and have an explantory lead-in paragraph ?22:27
jussi01nalioth: that is a very good idea, IMHO22:27
Tm_Telky: for quick thinking, "non-support chat around ubuntu and community" perhaps?22:27
naliothone that covers them all22:27
jussi01I propose both nalioth's and Tm_T's suggestions!22:27
nalioth"non support chat involving Ubuntu and the community"22:28
boredandbloggingnalioth: what would the lead in say besides following the CoC and guidelines?22:28
Priceyboredandblogging: 'besides...'?22:28
nalioththat there are no "free for all chat rooms" in the #ubuntu #kubuntu #xubuntu etc namespaces22:28
boredandbloggingis the lead in to reiterate to follow the CoC and guidelines?22:29
naliothif you're not getting direct help in #ubuntu, you're asking "which music player is best on a Pentium II?" in #ubuntu-offtopic22:29
naliothboredandblogging: that would be part of it22:29
boredandbloggingok, cool22:30
elkyboredandblogging, it'd be nice to explain what 'non-support' means22:30
jussi01and add a Use your common sense part... maybe?22:30
Tm_Tjussi01: problem, trolls can claim "this is my common sense" ? ):22:31
PiciI've found that even asking that #ubuntu-offtopic is not a support channel isn't even enough.  I've been constantly asking people to take their support questions (and answers) to #ubuntu lately.22:31
elkyTm_T, thanks, i was wondering how to phrase that :P22:31
naliothPici: that is a by-product of the current bug on LP, and I personally don't see any issues with providing help there22:32
Tm_Tnalioth: well, as long as it's not the main support source for people22:33
naliothof course not22:33
Tm_Tin #k sometimes support questions leads to chit chat about it, which then (hopefully) continue in -ot22:33
PiciAye, the same in #u+122:34
Tm_Tbut chit chat can lead to support, so cannot be strict22:34
jussi01SO how are we going to do this, we need a lead in paragraph for the page, maybe we decide to take it to the ML and create something, bring it back next meeting?22:36
elkythe participants tend to be able to differentiate between a continued discusson and someone coming in and announcing '#u ignored me so now i'm goign to ask here'22:36
elky(when they only waited in #u for like 30 seconds)22:36
Tm_Telky: aye, that could be the line of policy22:37
naliothbasically the lead-in paragraph needs to state two things:  "offtopic channels aren't a "free-for-all"" and "please follow the !CoC and !guidelines"22:37
boredandbloggingthen the question will be what isn't allowed22:38
Tm_T"offtopic is for chat involving ubuntu and community, support in #u, please follow ..."22:38
elkycan we compose the exact text later?22:39
naliothright now, can we change the existing description to "community related non-support discussion" ?22:40
Pici+1 sounds good22:40
jussi01nalioth: are you making these changes?22:40
naliothok, is jono around?22:40
naliothjussi01: i will make the changes, yes22:41
jussi01Jono isnt around22:41
Tm_Tnalioth: is not, gcds travel I guess22:41
naliothanyone want to discuss item 3? Resolving the quantity of traffic in #ubuntu22:41
PriceyIs it really that bad?22:41
naliothi don't think it is, no.22:41
jussi01I think the bug has gone the way it should, and people are looking into reviving /using -meta22:42
Tm_Tnot for everyone22:42
naliothlast call for item #3 discussion . . .22:42
PriceyHas anyone involved in that bug come here?22:42
elkyTm_T, the same people who find it too fast would probably find being turned into a number just as bad.22:42
Tm_Tbut yeah, I was about to say that maybe we old folks could push meta more to people who might benefit from it22:42
PriceyI think I put a comment on inviting people to...22:42
Tm_Telky: agree22:43
Priceyugh there are some lovely things on there...22:43
PiciI don't think there are any other good solutions that don't involve trying to turn IRC into something its not.22:43
ubottuUbuntu bug 392799 in ubuntu-community "#ubuntu too noisy to be useful" [Medium,Confirmed]22:43
jussi01Pricey: read through a bit22:44
Priceykicking because you are idle? (because that will make it a quieter channel)22:44
Tm_Tsplitting is nogo, but meta can be useful, really22:44
Priceyjussi01: Yep, I got to the meta bit... but really?!22:44
jussi01Pricey: he does apologise later on22:44
Pricey#ubuntu-hu does that and I didn't like it. Asked the channel contact about it and I think they discussed it at a meeting. Might go see what they came to.22:45
PiciI thought #winehq did it for a while too22:45
elkyit strikes me that the bot opping up and removing people would only add to the perception of traffic22:45
PiciI think it would just create a mess in -ops. People constantly coming in 'Why was I kicked??'22:45
naliothlots of channels do it, it only creates more chaos22:46
PiciOr 'why was soandso kicked?'22:46
naliothi vote we wait for jono and discuss this at the next meeting22:46
jussi01yeah, and not to mention those ops trying to idle there...22:46
elkynalioth, yes, it'd be good to watch and see where the 'bug' ends up22:47
PriceyI would love to see people putting their cases to us for discussion.22:47
PiciI'd like to see more suggestions on fixing the issue22:47
naliothimho, "auto kick on idle" is NOT any kind of option22:47
PiciI agree.22:47
jussi01yes, thats the main issue for me also, I want people involved to be at the meeting telling us why.22:47
jussi01nalioth: +1 on that22:47
naliothPici: the mailing list awaits.  again, we can use the mailing list to get the word out to everyone interested of the next meeting22:48
Pricey(if it is an issue)22:48
elkyok, so let's leave this for now and move to item 422:49
jussi01ok,  thats mine22:49
naliothjussi01: please enlighten us of item 422:49
PiciI'm fine with that22:49
jussi01We have talked about previously the need to clarify the correct procedure to get +v in #ubuntu-ops - AFAIK it was that you were part of the IRC team, although that has not been followed strictly. So how does it work and if not the IRC team, what is its function?22:51
elkyjussi01, i was initially under the impression it was supposed to be for the people that someone would go there to talk to.22:52
jussi01Well the thing is we need to define the correct procedure, and stick to it.22:53
naliothi would think the +v'd folks in -ops would be from the channels -ops services, and the +v'd folks in -irc would be the ops from the channels -irc services22:54
jussi01nalioth: that is what I would think also22:55
jussi01can we write it down somewhere?22:55
PriceyYou lose me.22:55
PriceyOh wait no, back with you.22:55
jussi01Pricey: WB :D22:56
Priceyi don't think that's clear enough22:56
Priceydoes #kubuntu come under -ops?22:57
elkythey could if they wished to cooperate22:57
jussi01it should, but thats a whole other matter altogether22:57
Picijussi01: +122:57
PriceyAs far as I'm concerned, it does as much as #kubuntu.22:57
elkyPricey, except #kubuntu* cooperates with the ops team.22:58
nalioth#xubuntu is served by -ops, whether they want the service or not22:58
PriceyThings need to be made clearer.22:58
jussi01Pricey: EXACTLY, which is why I want this written down somewhere22:59
PiciThe loco teams get -irc, the team main and team channels get -ops22:59
Priceyjussi01: just saying that "+v'd folks in -ops would be from the channels -ops services" isn't anywhere near it22:59
elkyPici, s/loco/team channels/22:59
jussi01Pricey: we would also need to define which channels they are23:00
naliothjussi01: Pici got it23:00
PiciI just mangled my words a bit.23:01
PriceyI don't understand it?23:01
naliothprimary and team channels are served by -ops.  loco teams get -irc23:01
elkycan we have a more solidified proposal for next meeting?23:01
Priceynalioth: I don't agree with that.23:01
jussi01and what about channels that dont fit either of those?23:01
Seeker`jussi01: such as?23:01
=== Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan
jussi01Seeker`: #ubuntu-powerpc,  #ubuntu-podcast etc23:02
PriceyI see the split as being... we have a group of operators who manage a very small number of channels, <10. That is what -ops is for. (So talking ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, offtopics, +1, meeting, etc.)23:02
PriceyEverything else, goes into -irc.23:02
Seeker`I say -powerpc, -podcast are closer to loco channels than main channels23:02
Pricey-ops is where we run that small number of main channels, probably quite concentrated on bans etc.23:02
Pricey-irc is for general ubuntu irc things23:03
jussi01Pricey: how does that follow with loco's that have their own -ops channels?23:03
Priceyjussi01: i don't think it conflicts23:03
jussi01and where does #ubuntuforums fit in?23:03
naliothyou guys are forgetting that some #ubuntu-* channels are not "official" but are just there23:03
Priceyi don't think the initial idea for -irc was a broader scoped -ops, it was for operators to mingle23:03
Priceynalioth: and as long as they abide by the guidelines, they can manage themselves?23:04
nalioththe vast majority of "official team channels" do manage themselves23:04
naliothbut that doesn't mean that -ops doesn't serve them23:04
Priceyah right23:05
jussi01nalioth: thats a good point23:05
Pricey-ops in general doesn't serve them through 'access' etc. though does it?23:05
Priceyits either help solving a problem, or a GC?23:05
naliothwe have had "troll alerts" in -ops before23:06
jussi01boredandblogging: Ive not seen any input from you yet...?23:08
PriceyI think it is best we differentiate between the tasks performed by someone with flag +o in a channel like #ubuntu, and the way we serve other channels.23:09
PriceyI think it gets confusing too often.23:09
elkyi'm confused as to what i'm inputting on. i'd much rather this be solidified into a proposal on the wiki or something first23:09
naliothyes, i think it needs to be written up as well and not hashed about here23:09
PriceyDoes anyone really have a proposal?23:09
PriceyI think that one of the things we could try and target with sorting out -ops and +v, is the way people see us as wanting to try to take over their channels.23:11
naliothjussi01: would you care to write something up?23:12
jussi01Pricey: yes, I agree.23:12
PiciI'm not sure I understood that Pricey23:12
naliothPici: some channels/teams in the #ubuntu namespace do not want anything to do with the council because they are under the impression we'd "take over and run their channel"23:12
elkyi'll rephrase, can we get something put into writing by next meeting so it's possible to follow what is being proposed?23:13
PriceyPici: if we clarify #ubuntu-ops, what hte people in there do... we won't get scaremongering at team meetings telling councils we're going to take over their channels.23:13
naliothjussi01: can you start a gobby doc or something on this?23:13
jussi01nalioth: If someone else can host it for now, can you pop something up on your gobby elky?23:14
=== Adri2000_ is now known as Adri2000
PriceyI don't think we've had any real proposals?23:15
naliothok, jussi01 is going to write a proposal, and put it somewhere for perusal before the next meeting - where we'll discuss it23:15
jussi01Well the idea wasnt that we had a real proposal, it was that we needed to discuss the subject I put up...23:15
elkyjussi01, i'm not opening my gobby up to the entire ops team though. what's wrong with a wiki page?23:16
PriceyWe could at least throw some quick proposals around here now, while we're here, meeting?23:16
jussi01exactly my point Pricey :)23:16
naliothPricey: we're running over.23:16
PiciI think a wiki page would work fine for this, we don't need gobby since we aren't going to be modifying this real-time together23:17
naliothjussi01: please let us know where you post your document.23:17
naliothany other input?23:17
jussi01OK, well that looks like end of meeting to me.23:19
naliothok, everybody take care.  see you next time.23:19

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