[00:07] jelmer: did i tell you before about bzr-svn tests segfaulting with python 2.4 ? [00:16] mwhudson: no [00:16] mwhudson: please file a bug with gdb backtrace if possible [00:17] ok [00:17] doesn't happen with 2.5 [00:17] trying on hardy w/ec2 now [00:20] oh waht [00:20] jelmer: any ideas? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/210808/ [00:20] (haven't dug at all, maybe i'm doing something dumb) [00:31] hello [00:31] Hi [00:34] mwhudson: that one should be fixed now [00:34] jelmer: in bzr-svn? [00:34] (i was testing the release-0.6.3 tag) [00:44] poolie: did you get my email about the bzr licence? [00:44] hi [00:44] i did get it on friday [00:44] cool [00:44] i'll reply today [00:44] thanks [00:44] just wanted to make sure, been having a few problems sending emails recently [00:45] anyway time for bed for me, night [00:50] Hello. [00:50] hello spiv [01:14] oh hm, does happen on hardy too [01:18] lifeless: checking out grisbi, eh? saw your bug reports :) [01:19] mrooney: yah [01:19] mrooney: for 'easy to use' it seems harder than gnucash [01:19] >< [01:20] hello lifeless [01:20] hi poolie [01:20] is it better in some other way? [01:20] i think i tried it... [01:20] poolie: I think it may have saner defaults, but in my limited experiment it wasn't really better/worse [01:21] gnucash doesn't seem to be changing very fast [01:21] I was hoping for something like MS Money, which I used inthe late 90's, that was at least polished, for all its defects [01:21] lifeless: I popped in to ask if you had a minute to evaluate the personal finance software I am working on, wxBanker, and let me know what you think coming from grisib/gnucash. I am currently working on a newer version for Karmic [01:21] I've quite liked Homebank's interface, but I'm may well be looking for something a little bit different to you. [01:22] mrooney: what do you think is better than gnucash in wxbanker? [01:22] mrooney: karmic package is the thing to try? [01:22] there are some screenshots at wiki.ubuntu.com/wxBanker I do believe :) [01:22] nope bzr branch lp:wxbanker is the thing to try, it just needs python-wxgtk2.8 and python-numpy [01:23] poolie: gnucash is more featureful and advanced, I tried it and initially was overwhelmed and just wanted something simple to keep track of basic transactions in arbitrary accounts [01:23] RAOF: could be; I need to manage (today) a mortgage, bills that are paid by proxy, income in multiple currencies (pay + investments), and an utterly useless export facility from my bank [01:24] lifeless: oh no multiple currencies yet, although you can csv import [01:24] ah [01:24] yay Vanguard :) [01:24] Homebank manages the last criterion with reasonable applomb, and the rest are use-cases I've never tried. [01:24] vanguard? [01:24] the RMS of finance :) [01:24] s/^/John Bogle is/ [01:25] $ apt-cache search vanguard [01:25] $ [01:25] poolie: did you play with https://edge.launchpad.net/bzr-guess/trunk ? [01:25] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vanguard_Group [01:25] mwhudson: yeah, in bzr-svn [01:25] featured in his screenshots [01:25] mwhudson: it can be worked around by installing python-apt [01:25] s/python-apt/python-tdb/ [01:26] lifeless: nup, i only saw the mail so far [01:26] jelmer: oh [01:26] jelmer: ok, have gdb on a python2.4 segfault [01:26] anyway I was just poking around looking for UI / intuitiveness opinions / reviews so I can improve it for karmic, let me know if you have any :) [01:26] mrooney: i might try it too [01:26] i use gnucash quite a lot [01:26] hmm, I suspect you will find it lacking but, let me know what is most lacking [01:26] and can see many ways in which it could be improved up [01:27] upon [01:27] jelmer: this is the start of the traceback http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/210848/ [01:27] can it do the 'total for this financial period'? i use that a lot [01:27] poolie: my target audience is people overwhelmed by gnucash or people who want to start tracking finances, so people happy with gnucash will probably find features missing in wxbanker [01:27] I can tell you what I find most frustrating about most of these tools [01:27] and thats polish [01:28] I mean, I can run a double entry system on cards if I want to [01:28] Simple reports and data entry for that are *not a win* [01:28] poolie: hm, you can search by date regex, I could also add a start and end date control to the graph [01:30] I should just add a start and end option in the search, let me do that now :) [01:31] mrooney: to do my tax, i need to answer things like "how much did depreciation of the work-related fraction of my computer equipment cost between 1 jul 08 and 30 jun 09" [01:32] yeah, that isn't really possible to do in an automated way currently :) [01:32] it will be soon with recurring transactions, and then searching on those based on description / account [01:33] but these are already good things to write down :) [01:37] so, for me too, like lifeless [01:37] i am not at all overwhelmed by the double entry concept [01:37] i just wish there was more polish [01:37] oh maybe more speed wbn too [01:38] it takes about a minute to start [01:38] at this rate it would take years to [01:38] at this rate it would take weeks* to boot for Mark :) [01:41] I got a question about trees. [01:41] would probably be rewarding to try MYOB or some windows program [01:41] hello gary [01:41] Background: for qcommit, the user can select files to be added. [01:41] Hi poolie [01:42] This only happens when the ok is press, and is achived by running bzr add [01:43] We also have a diff button which show a diff of all selected changes. [01:44] But due to the design, it does not include the files that the user has selected to be added [01:44] Is there a way that I can temporally add files to the working tree without anything being written to disk? [01:45] no [01:46] trees don't have a transactional model [01:46] you could use a preview tree [01:46] lifeless: Hi [01:46] or you could just add the files, and unversion afterwards [01:46] * garyvdm looks at preview trees [01:57] mrooney: I want two key things: planning features: what-if on mortgage, debt management, investment management. And country specific glue - a chart of accounts that dumps everything into the right buckets for AU tax returns [01:59] lifeless: interesting, I have some budgeting stuff planned so you can add your own lines to the graph, like saying, I want my savings account to grow by 7% plus 10K a year, and see that in comparison to the actual balance [02:01] so that could work to set debt paying guides as well. the tax stuff sounds more complicated :) [02:16] budgets would be nice [02:16] you could do a lot there [02:17] like if i've budgeted to spend say $x on ugg boots per year [02:17] well, actually for a simpler example [02:17] $x on groceries [02:17] it could show if i'm running a bit high for this month [02:18] but some things are very lumpy, if they're only paid for once per year [02:18] and it could help take that into account too [02:18] for quoted investments i'd like to see the current value compared to what i spent on it [02:18] gnucash could do that, but doesn't [02:18] oh and then you could calculate the irr [02:34] * SamB wishes the daily PPA builds would now have versions of form bzr 1.16.1+XXXX [02:37] SamB: why not 1.17~ [02:38] lifeless: well, right now it's 1.16+XXXX [02:38] whereas the latest is "1.16.1" [02:38] i wonder what the trunk currently [02:38] say [02:38] says* [02:38] i noticed that the other day too [02:38] I mean, that's what aptitude thinks is the latest ;-) [02:39] what is it about GUI help that they all a) want to run a browser and b) want to *not run my default browser* [02:40] lifeless: it's because you aren't using Windows, maybe ;-P [02:41] where they probably have a simple API to run the default browser [02:47] jelmer: the subverpy tests pass for me, of course :) [02:51] kfogel: please put backtraces in bug reports [02:54] ok deepish hacking mode on; SMS me if you want my attention [03:09] poolie: install bzr-guess, would like to see what you think [03:32] lifeless: I did (or so I thought...?) [03:33] no, you linked to a pastebin site [03:33] totally useless for reviewing bugmail [03:34] what I mean is, it adds a lot of latency to the task of figuring out what the bug is [03:34] because I have to fire up a web page [03:35] this turns a 5-10 second operation into more like a minute [03:35] unless its an lp web page [03:35] in which case its a couple of minutes [03:36] lifeless: uh, did you see the attachment on the bug? [03:36] the one that my initial comment said I was attaching, and that I did attach? :-) [03:37] kfogel: launchpad doesn't forward attachments [03:37] lifeless: I would happily paste a backtrace directly into the bug desc/comment form *if* that form would give me any clue about what its formatting rules are. [03:37] kfogel: just paste them, it preserves CR [03:38] lifeless: CR only? [03:38] if you paste it will work [03:38] lifeless: I will try to remember that, but shouldn't have to :-). [03:39] kfogel: agreed [03:39] lp should have attached the attachment to the bug mail [03:39] but what it does is send a separate mail out with the url [03:39] its very frustrating [03:40] lifeless: also, not sure how, but your comment comes after a conversation between James and me in which we find out exactly what you said in your comment. [03:40] Is that because of the "lp bugs don't implement mid-air collision" thing? [03:41] kfogel: I do bugs via email [03:41] kfogel: I was replying to your 4:06 comment "This could be related to bug #120930, though I tend to think not, as no"... [03:41] Launchpad bug 120930 in bzr "commit of files with unicode names fails in 0.17rc1" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120930 [03:41] lifeless: While I appreciate the convenience of an email interface, I do think that makes you more likely to enter into a conversation without having heard what was most recently said. [03:42] kfogel: be generous in what you accept :) [03:42] kfogel: for all that you had both decided on bzr-search, I still needed to make the backtrace more visible for me, as i"ll need it when investigating the cause. [03:42] I had seen all the discussion when I replied [03:43] lifeless: I think you know all the things I might say at this point in the conversation, so I won't say them :-). [03:44] Thank you for looking into it, anyway. [03:44] I haven't yet, but I will [03:44] oh [03:44] what bzr-search revno do you have? [03:45] kfogel: ^ [03:45] lifeless: 70 [03:46] update [03:46] lifeless: I haven't fetched in a while [03:46] should I? [03:46] ok [03:47] lifeless: commit seems to work now [03:48] lifeless: closed bug as invalid, therefore [03:49] kfogel: fixreleased actually [03:49] kfogel: I've already done it [03:49] heh! [03:49] now, even though I'm using the web interface, I did the same thing you did -- I didn't see a previous comment, and therefore had a non-reported mid-air collision. [03:49] lifeless: ^^ [03:49] one of the things that makes the email interface frustrating actually, is latency [03:50] theres no good technical reason that smtp events should be any higher latency than http, for in or out. [03:50] kfogel: well, I closed it by email [03:50] lifeless: I think the method by which you closed it doesn't matter here -- even if you had done it via web, that problem still would have happened, b/c the bug tracker doesn't do conflict detection. [03:50] hm [03:51] (time to close, 3 seconds - 1/5th the time to close the web page) [03:51] kfogel: yes, and it doesn't do real-time update on open views either [03:51] i suspect, without strong evidence, that midair collisions actually do _worse_ than just taking the latest values [03:51] lifeless: as I said, no argument about the convenience (to that user) of email. [03:51] kfogel: I filed a couple of bugs last week about the webui in this regard [03:51] let alone taking the latest values of changed fields i [03:51] it's hard to see how that could be true [03:51] poolie: I've worked with both, and this way is worse. [03:52] poolie: mid-air collision just means notice the conflict, inform the user, and let them figure out what to do. [03:52] kfogel: both which? [03:52] the way I just described, and the current way [03:52] oh you mean you'd prefer it gives you an error [03:52] lifeless: I thought that was an old bug, though? [03:52] like um bugzilla does? [03:52] poolie: VASTLY [03:52] kfogel: which-was ? :) [03:52] poolie: or like every other tracker I've worked with, as far as I know? :-) [03:53] kfogel: debbugs doesn't. [03:53] lifeless: that the bug tracker not doing conflict detection is a bug [03:53] lifeless: ah, good example. okay, except debbugs (which could, though -- email interface vs web interface has nothing to do with this) [03:54] ok [03:54] kfogel: I didn't file bugs about c-d, rather about stale-pages. [03:54] kfogel: if you have a view on e.g. a list of bugs [03:54] and poolie closes one [03:54] it would be nice if the list updated [03:55] lifeless: oh, I see -- yes, great idea [03:55] yes [03:56] a real pony of an idea :) [03:56] btw Black Sheep A+ [03:58] i watched black sheep on the way back from allhands/uds [03:58] glad you like it [03:58] at one point i had half the cabin crew watching it over my shoulder, which was a bit of an odd experience [03:59] LOL [03:59] is this some movie? [04:00] poolie: black sheep isn't that funny [04:00] poolie: certainly a good b-grade movie, but A+? B+ maybe [04:02] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sheep_(2007_film) [04:04] jelmer: still awake? [04:05] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream wow. [04:05] (i hope not) [04:11] anyone know the bzr flag to ignore ~/.bazaar ? [04:11] bzr help hasn't turned it up yet, though I'm sure it's there somewhere [04:11] kfogel: are you versioning ~/ ? [04:11] kfogel: bzr ignore .bazaar [04:11] thumper: Yes. In Subversion :-). [04:12] thumper: no, not to ignore for vc [04:12] thumper: to ignore for running a command [04:12] kfogel: huh? [04:12] bzr --behave-as-if-i-had-no-.bazaar-dir [04:13] kfogel: ah [04:13] kfogel: something to do with $HOME or $BZR_DIR [04:14] * thumper thinks [04:16] kfogel: perhaps "BZR_HOME=/dev/null bzr ..." ? [04:17] spiv: will error [04:17] It generates a bit of "No handlers ..." noise on stderr probably due to being unable to initialise the .bzr.log trace file, though. [04:18] (I think this is a bug) - bzr writes a default ~/.bazaar/ignore on first use. [04:18] Ah, drat, so it does. [04:18] I tried 'bzr whoami', and that worked. [04:18] But actual working tree ops die as you say. [04:18] kfogel: why [04:20] I guess there's always "tmpdir=$(mktemp -d); BZR_HOME=$tmpdir bzr ... ; rm -r $tmpdir", although you'd need more complexity to preserve the exit code... [04:20] and still. why? [04:27] lifeless: I wanted to test some pulls over http and know for sure that my launchpad identity was not affecting them. I just moved the dir out of the way temporarily, it's no problem. [05:07] Oops, streaming is still generating more root records than IDS. I guess I need to more ruthlessly reuse more of the IDS logic... [05:33] spiv: did the test suite catch it? [05:34] lifeless: not directly, I found when digging into a inventory-parents/stacking related failure. [05:34] I'll certainly add a direct test. [05:34] could you add tests then ? [05:34] thanks [05:34] :) [05:34] spiv: direct-interface level would be my preference [05:36] lifeless: I was thinking interrepo test for any non-rr -> rr, with rev1:[] and rev2:[rev1], do a fetch, rev2's inv should have (root-id, rev1) (and corresponding text record). [05:37] spiv: there's one like that already [05:37] Yeah, I expect so. [05:37] spiv: rev2's inv should have (root-id, rev2) [05:37] i have a lightweight checkout that's bound to a bzr:// address, but that address has changed, how do I point the checkout to the new location? [05:37] Hmm. Really? [05:38] itistoday: switch [05:38] spiv: yes, the algorithm is meant to be identical in the presence of ghosts [05:38] itistoday: i think you have to edit the .bzr/branch/location file by hand :( [05:38] unless that bug has been fixed [05:38] mwhudson: --force [05:38] ah good [05:38] mwhudson: fixed about a year ago [05:39] Heck, who has time to keep THAT up to date? [05:39] fullermd: yeah, doesn't work :-( [05:39] mwhudson: hmmm... thanks i'll try that... odd that there isn't a command to do this [05:39] itistoday: there is a command [05:39] itistoday: bzr switch --force NEWURL [05:40] lifeless: it doesn't seem to work, i get a connection refused error for the old location [05:41] lifeless: ah, I see. So it's actually IDS that's wrong then, not the streaming. Hmm. [05:42] itistoday: oh, thats odd. [05:42] itistoday: what bzr version do you have? [05:42] spiv: look in log for a commit from me about this [05:42] spiv: and you'll find the test I wrote for it [05:42] lifeless: 1.16 [05:43] lifeless: will do [05:43] mwhudson: thanks, that seemed to have worked, although very odd, it will give an error if that file ends in a newline. [05:43] itistoday: what does 'bzr plugins' report? [05:44] itistoday: ah, could have warned you about that [05:44] we have a test that this works [05:44] itistoday: bzr switch --force worked for me though [05:44] so its being cause by something outside of bzr core, or something unusual [05:44] bzrlib.tests.blackbox.test_switch, test_switch_lightweight_after_branch_moved [05:44] lifeless: bzr_push_and_update (0.2dev), bzrtools 1.16, launchpad 1.16, netrc_credential_store 1.16 [05:46] perhaps it's a bug to do with switching from a URL that looks like this: bzr://foo/ => bzr://foo:9990/repo/trunk ? [05:46] itistoday: i guess it's too late now (maybe you could copy the tree and mangle the location file in the copy?) but if you can reproduce the problem, could you run with -Derror and pastebin the traceback? [05:47] mwhudson: it might be easy to turn things back... just by editing that file again, i'll try, one sec [05:47] looking at the code i can't see how --force isn't working [05:47] unless as lifeless says, switch is being entirely replaced somehow [05:47] itistoday: also if you can reproduce it, please try 'bzr switch --no-plugins --force NEWURL' [05:48] lifeless: ok [05:48] where does the -Derror go? [05:48] immediately after bzr? [05:48] or after the command? [05:48] anywhere [05:49] between bzr and the command normally [05:49] k, able to reproduce, 1 sec [05:49] what's a good pastie site? [05:49] rafb.net [05:49] or paste.ubuntu.com [05:49] or whatever [05:50] spiv: can reproduce the pyflakes problem btw [05:50] http://pastie.org/535315 [05:52] hope that's helpful [05:52] spiv: and fixed it [05:52] itistoday: it is thanks [05:52] itistoday: i'll turn it into a bug [05:53] lifeless: k cool [05:53] aaah [05:53] mwhudson: oh, great. Thanks! [05:53] spiv: r29 of my branch [05:53] itistoday: the code was expecting "not branch", not "connection refused" [05:54] mwhudson: sorry, don't really follow, but does that mean you know what the problem was? [05:55] itistoday: yes [05:55] mwhudson: cool :-) [05:55] btw, is 'cool' still in use today? [05:55] i come from the past you see... [05:57] so do i, in internet terms :) [05:57] I like living in the past. I know when to cringe. [05:57] mwhudson: aren't you still under 30? [05:58] thumper: no [05:58] well... at least I never used punch cards :) [05:59] My FORTRAN book instructs me to use punch cards in the exercises... [06:00] ... OK, now I have to go see if Google knows who makes a USB card reader... [06:00] good luck with that search term [06:01] haha [06:06] Whoah. I should know that doing a search like that is likely to give me even weirder results than what I'm looking for... [06:06] "Proposed solution: Construct an adapter that interfaces a standard PC USB port to the tape drive interface of the 1401." [06:06] http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/IBM_1401_to_PC_Interface_Adapter.html [06:06] So, just follow those instructions, feed your cards into the 1401, and write them to the tape [PC]. [06:07] All you need is a 1401... [07:27] hi all [07:31] go away vila , damn ghost mouse events ! I swear I didn't click... [07:35] Are ghost mice more or less frightening to elephants? [07:44] fullermd: far more ! Imagine mouse clicks occurring not even where your pointer is... [07:44] elephants just can't support that... === domas_ is now known as domas [08:12] night all [08:13] night lifeless [08:17] lifeless: are you still here? [08:18] can i now lazily register commands? [08:18] i can certainly be lazy by asking rather than digging more :) [08:19] vila, your comment "Turn test_non_ascii.py test_mv errors into failures." is interesting to me [08:19] poolie: hehe, command lazy registering is certainly a continuum :) [08:20] i wonder if at least getting to actual failures rather than other types of exception is a good intermediate step [08:20] good, the idea was to either start discussion during review or leave a starting point for a better diagnostic or bug filing [08:21] oops, message crossing [08:21] so you did find it useful? [08:21] we have the actual failures, but keeping them undiagnosed is counter-productive for the test farm [08:22] given that the failures date back to 1.6 .... [08:22] oh, you meant into known failures [08:22] i agree about that [08:22] yes, thinking more about it I should just turn the TestSkipped into a KnownFailure [08:23] I was thinking about doing that as a tweak during the week-end [08:26] i was thinking about something else which is whether a TestFailure (or whatever it's called) is better than say a TypeErorr [08:26] probably not enough better to be worth making a separate step for it [08:26] um [08:26] regarding TestSkipped etc [08:27] i'd like to overhaul that too [08:27] i think we're missing a couple of useful classes [08:27] I don't get it. What TypeError are you talking about ? [08:27] also, marc tardif(?) recently posted about the taxonomy of test failures used by different frameworks [08:27] it might be worth looking at that [08:27] um [08:27] it's just an abstract example- [08:28] i'm talking about the difference between tests that crash when run [08:28] and those that fail with in a specific test assertion [08:28] Oh ERROR instead of FAIL [08:28] some people think that failures of the first type are worse than the second type [08:28] right [08:28] i don't think that's that ERROR is worse, or even very different, in our case [08:29] (program over :P) [08:29] so I think there is a good concrete difference [08:29] say you break something [08:29] I view ERRORs as compilation issues as opposed to FAIL as run-time issues. The former should indeed occurs only during dev [08:29] things /testing/ the thing broken are more likely (one hopes) to FAIL, and all the ERRORS are fallout that one can ignore until the FAILures are fixed [08:29] and probably once the FAILures are fixed the errors will go away [08:30] lifeless: interesting counter-example :) I should try that next time, but I'm pretty sure I always try to address the ERRORs first... [08:32] this is kind of a beer question :) [08:32] poolie: so, re lazy - I don't think its good to have to manually maintain a cache [08:32] so i'm going back to your review then to my code [08:33] poolie: other than that its all open ;) [08:33] lifeless: i agree, once and only once is better [08:33] and, try bzr-guess :):) [08:33] ok [08:33] i'd rather have better zsh completion :) [08:33] fortunately its not an exclusive choice [08:34] anyhoo - see you all tomorrow [08:35] lifeless: ok, very cute [08:36] vila, +1 [08:36] to your osx patch [08:36] poolie: this might be something to put in core [08:36] which? [08:36] bzr-guess [08:36] :? maybe [08:36] um [08:36] it's an interesting test case [08:37] i don't know how many people will specifically go out and get it separately [08:37]