[09:08] <Keybuk> mbiebl: which debian packages?
[11:35] <Keybuk> the speed difference between "initctl list" and "sudo initctl list" is kinda interesting
[14:12] <mbiebl> Keybuk: the packages you uploaded to karmic
[14:20] <Keybuk> mbiebl: of upstart?
[14:20] <mbiebl> yeah
[14:20] <Keybuk> I didn't look in the Debian package
[14:20] <Keybuk> was there something I missed?
[14:22] <mbiebl> Keybuk: for one, there was upstart-job already in their
[14:22] <mbiebl> and you merged the debs into one
[14:22] <mbiebl> (and some smaller stuff)
[14:23] <Keybuk> oh, I didn't know you'd done the upstart-job thing yet
[14:23] <Keybuk> I just stuck a quick-and-dirty shell script in there for now, until you did :)
[14:25] <mbiebl> maybe we should communicate better then ;-)
[14:26] <mbiebl> why the merge of the packages?
[14:27] <mbiebl> imho keeping e.g. the tty job files and the core upstart package separat made sense
[14:44] <Keybuk> the separation we had didn't make much sense
[14:44] <Keybuk> it was kinda arbitrary
[14:47] <Keybuk> ok, I'm confused ;)
[14:48] <Keybuk> you were saying I merged the Debian packages
[14:48] <Keybuk> did you mean that I merged the binary debs together
[14:48] <Keybuk> or merged with the Debian package (compared to the Ubuntu one)
[14:48] <mbiebl> I meant, merged the debs
[14:48] <Keybuk> ahh
[14:48] <Keybuk> right, yeah
[14:48] <Keybuk> we talked about doing that in Ubuntu a while back
[14:49] <Keybuk> since most things will ship their own upstart jobs, and we'll try and push them upstream
[14:49] <Keybuk> even util-linux will ship the jobs for the gettys
[14:49] <Keybuk> nothing would end up in those two packages
[14:49] <mbiebl> so it would be much easier to just drop system-services when util-linux does that
[14:50] <Keybuk> and with merging upstart-compat-sysv back into upstart (since shutdown, etc. are "native" now), they kinda all went away
[14:50] <Keybuk> really?  doesn't make much difference surely?
[14:50] <Keybuk> util-linux will ship /etc/init/getty.conf
[14:51] <Keybuk> you don't have to follow that in Debian of course ;)
[14:51] <Keybuk> that's up to you
[14:51] <Keybuk> what did you mean about upstart-job btw?
[14:54] <mbiebl> Keybuk: my point is not so much about the merge itself but having known beforehand what you are planning
[14:55] <Keybuk> you were in the room at UDS when we talked about it ;)
[14:55] <mbiebl> sorry, then I completely missed that part
[14:55] <mbiebl> when was this discussed, the the binary packages will be merged?
[14:55] <Keybuk> in the packaging policy session I think
[14:55] <Keybuk> the room with the glass wall
[14:56] <Keybuk> the getty bit specifically was in the karmic kms console one though
[14:56] <mbiebl> I honestly can't remember that
[14:56] <Keybuk> rationale:
[14:56] <Keybuk> system-services, currently only contains getty
[14:56] <Keybuk> we want to merge those into one instance job
[14:57] <Keybuk> now we've discovered that we probably need to dynamically create ttys anyway
[14:57] <Keybuk> so it all makes sense to move to util-linux
[14:57] <Keybuk> (leaving that package empty)
[14:57] <Keybuk> startup-tasks is already empty
[14:57] <mbiebl> there is no point arguing about that ;-)
[14:57] <Keybuk> things like running udev belong in udev, setting hostname belongs in util-linux, etc.
[14:58] <Keybuk> upstart-compat-sysv, we discussed here ages ago that it didn't make sense to hang those tools out to dry
[14:58] <mbiebl> arguing about startup-tasks, I mean 
[14:58] <Keybuk> they got moved from compat/sysv to util in the main source package (pre 0.5 iirc)
[14:58] <Keybuk> and now the default recommended jobs are shipped in the source package as well
[14:58] <Keybuk> especially when upstart gains native lsb jobs, it becomes increasingly blurry
[14:59] <Keybuk> having everything in one binary package makes the migration easier too
[14:59] <Keybuk> the missing piece is something to migrate custom changes from /etc/event.d to /etc/init
[14:59] <Keybuk> and clean up after
[14:59] <Keybuk> if all the resulting files are in one package, that's easier :p
[15:01] <sadmac2> Keybuk: slightly off topic: you said 0.10/1.0 will continue to support 0.6 job definitions, right?
[15:02] <Keybuk> right
[15:03] <sadmac2> ah. that'll make life easier.
[15:03] <sadmac2> much as I'd love to delete all that code :)
[15:03] <mbiebl> my preliminary packages on http://debs.michaelbiebl.de/upstart/
[15:03] <Keybuk> the idea being that people should feel safe about updating to 0.6 now
[15:03] <Keybuk> and using it as a stable release
[15:04] <Keybuk> while 0.10 is a development release that they can experiment with without worrying
[15:04] <mbiebl> had the maintainer scripts updated to support the conffile migration
[15:04] <Keybuk> mbiebl: ah, I deliberately didn't do that because 0.3 and 0.6 job files aren't directly compatible
[15:05] <mbiebl> Keybuk: hehe, I only migrated the ttyS
[15:05] <Keybuk> you need to do more than just copy them
[15:05] <mbiebl> for the same reason I on rm the old if unmodified
[15:05] <Keybuk> what do you if modified?
[15:05] <mbiebl> keep a copy
[15:05] <Keybuk> in /etc/event.d ?
[15:06] <mbiebl> yeah
[15:06] <sadmac2> Keybuk: did we ever increase the strictness of the 0.6 job format? does having two start stanzas still just silently take the second one?
[15:06] <Keybuk> sadmac2: yes
[15:07] <sadmac2> Keybuk: yes to which question :P
[15:07] <Keybuk> sadmac2: what you said is true; the last of all dup stanzas is used
[15:07] <sadmac2> Keybuk: unfortunate, but not much to be done about it.
[15:08] <mbiebl> Keybuk: regarding the merge: I guess you should also add Conflicts
[15:08] <Keybuk> why unfortunate?
[15:08] <Keybuk> mbiebl: already did that ;)
[15:08] <mbiebl> oh, not in -1
[15:08] <mbiebl> which I looked at
[15:08] <sadmac2> Keybuk: it should at least give a warning. That behavior is almost certainly not reflecting what the user intended when they wrote the job definition.
[15:09] <mbiebl> And why the Provides?
[15:09] <Keybuk> sadmac2: it followed what most other configs do
[15:09] <Keybuk> e.g.
[15:09] <Keybuk>   SomeOption on
[15:09] <Keybuk>   SomeOption off
[15:09] <Keybuk>   SomeOption on
[15:09] <sadmac2> Keybuk: if most other configs jumped off a bridge... :P
[15:11] <Keybuk> sadmac2: I'd push you off ;)
[15:12] <sadmac2> Keybuk: touche
[15:12] <Keybuk> I'd give you a portal gun first
[15:13] <sadmac2> Keybuk: potential release name: "Thank you for helping us help you help us all."
[15:13]  * sadmac2 <3 GlaDoS
[15:23] <mbiebl> Keybuk: about upstart-job
[15:24] <mbiebl> imho it makes sense to map force-reload to restart
[15:25] <mbiebl> I also strip away any leading SK?? from the basename
[15:26] <mbiebl> so it can be started e.g. by /etc/rc2.d/S50cups
[15:27] <mbiebl> Keybuk: Idea is, that packages can potentially start now to ship upstart job files
[15:27] <mbiebl> without strictly having to got from bottom up
[15:28] <mbiebl> e.g. cups could ship a job file today
[15:28] <mbiebl> which then is not started by events
[15:28] <mbiebl> but by sysv
[15:29] <mbiebl> which imho is pretty neat, as we don't to strictly synchronize when to convert which packages
[15:33] <sadmac2> Keybuk: did you look at the state transfer patch?
[17:16] <mbiebl> Keybuk: I think you can drop the Provides from the Ubuntu package
[17:16] <mbiebl> and I also think it doesn't make sense to ship the nih-dbus-binding tool man page
[17:17] <Keybuk> mbiebl: we need those in Ubuntu the way that ubuntu-meta works
[17:17] <mbiebl> how's that?
[17:18] <Keybuk> ubuntu is installed by packages that depend on others
[17:18] <Keybuk> ubuntu-minimal depends on those packages provided
[17:18] <mbiebl> hm, doesn't the latest ubuntu-minimal not only depend on upstart?
[17:19] <Keybuk> latest yes, but not when upgrading from jaunty to karmic when released
[17:19] <Keybuk> the installed one will still depend on upstart-compat-sysv
[17:19] <Keybuk> providing it makes upgrade ordering easier :)
[17:20] <mbiebl> so update-manager will fall over if those provides are not there?
[17:20] <Keybuk> no
[17:20] <Keybuk> it'll just get pessimal ordering
[17:22] <mbiebl> what's pessimal?
[17:24] <mbiebl> ok, seems to be the opposite of optimal ;-)
[18:36] <ion> keybuk: I’m thinking of fixing some typos etc. in the 0.6.0 manpages. How are the lines wrapped? I don’t seem to find a consistent maximum line width or equivalent.