/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/07/11/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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SiDicody-somerville: heya ?16:59
SiDiknome: we're waiting for you then D:17:02
knomeok, give me a few minutes :)17:02
SiDido you know how to use the meeting bot ? :p17:03
knomeyeo,17:03
knome#startmeeting17:03
MootBotMeeting started at 11:03. The chair is knome.17:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:03
knomeokay, let's start17:03
ScottKCan I just toss something in before I have to run?17:04
knomesure. :)?17:04
cody-somervilleHi17:05
knomehello cody17:05
ScottKWe had a conversation yesterday in #ubuntu-x about the dontzap package.  It's not needed for Ubuntu/Kubuntu since upstream provides a GUI for the change.  We didn't think Xubuntu needed it either, but I thought I mention it.17:05
SiDiHeya cody-somerville17:05
vinnlHi17:05
vinnlI'll be gone in ten minutes or so, dinner, and return after that :)17:05
ScottKdontzap is currently not working in karmic anyway, so the intent is to just remove it.17:05
knomeokay17:05
SiDiScottK: its the package that allows reenabling Ctrl+Alt+Backspace ?17:05
ScottKSiDi: Yes.17:05
knomeok, thanks ScottK :)17:05
charlie-tcaNo problem here with that17:05
SiDiScottK: err, then we have to modify xorg.conf on our own ? :/17:06
knomeis there somebody who volunteers putting the minutes online? i can send the mootbot log once we're finished.17:06
ScottKSiDi: No.  Apparently there's a lib that supports this that xfce uses too.17:06
SiDiScottK: i think this should be confirmed with xfce devs. i've never seen a gui for that thing17:07
ScottKIt's xklavier that they were mentioning17:07
charlie-tcaSiDi: but you can still enable it with xorg, right17:07
charlie-tca?17:08
ScottKYou've now exhausted my knowledge of the topic.17:08
ScottKI think actually you can't do it in xorg anymore.17:08
ScottKYou have to use xklavier or whatever.17:08
SiDiit can be done with xorg indeed charlie-tca, but dontzap is more typo-proof :)17:08
SiDioh17:08
SiDihey ochosi17:08
ochosihey everyone17:08
ochosisorry for being late17:09
knomeno problem17:09
knomewe were just starting17:09
ochosiok, good17:09
ScottKSiDi: If I understand the discussion in #ubuntu-x yesterday, I think xorg doesn't work anymore in Karmic.17:09
SiDiScottK: ok then maybe we should keep dontzap :D17:09
ScottKSiDi: I'd talk to tseliot about it.17:09
knomei think we have to investigate this anyway17:09
SiDiScottK: thanks17:09
charlie-tcaSiDi: then the question also has to be asked, who will maintain it?17:09
SiDidoes it need to be maintained ? :/17:10
knomeSiDi, are you willing to investigate further?17:10
charlie-tcaWill it be useable as other stuff changes ?17:10
charlie-tcaIf we want it kept, any bugs filed will have to be fixed by us, won't they?17:11
SiDiknome: as long as it doesnt involve coding / packaging it should be ok17:11
knomeokay17:11
cody-somervilleAnyhow17:11
knome[ACT] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff17:11
knomeoops17:11
knome[ACTION] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff17:12
MootBotACTION received:  SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff17:12
cody-somervilleLets move forward with the agenda17:12
knomecody-somerville, i started the meeting as you didn't show up early enough. :)17:12
cody-somervilleI can't stay too long17:12
knome[TOPIC] Review last meetings action items17:12
MootBotNew Topic:  Review last meetings action items17:12
vinnlDinner, if I'm needed for anything please push it to the back of the agenda :P17:12
knome[TOPIC] .. Team reports17:12
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Team reports17:12
knomehas everyone updated the team reports? :)17:13
cody-somervilleI forgot. I'll do my part later today17:13
knomeokay17:13
charlie-tcanot really17:13
knome[ACTION] Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS.17:13
MootBotACTION received:  Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS.17:13
SiDiWhat is a team report ? :|17:14
knome[TOPIC] .. Documentation and artwork for documentation17:14
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Documentation and artwork for documentation17:14
cody-somervilleSiDi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports17:14
knomej1mc doesn't seem to be available17:15
knomethere's not much progress17:15
knomeso let's move on17:15
knome[TOPIC] .. Testing wiki pages17:15
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Testing wiki pages17:15
knome[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short17:16
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short17:16
knomecharlie-tca, how are they coming along?17:16
charlie-tcaouch17:16
charlie-tcaforgot to do that17:16
knomethe action item: #17:16
knome    *17:16
knomethe action item:       Charlie to work on the Testing wiki pages and split them to be shorter and readable. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short)17:16
knomeno problem.17:16
knome:)17:16
charlie-tcaYeah, I will have to work that one17:16
knome[ACTION] charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff17:16
MootBotACTION received:  charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff17:16
knome[TOPIC] .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs17:16
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs17:16
knomeis there anything to this?17:16
charlie-tcaI thought we beat that to death17:17
SiDiWe lack funds for this.17:17
knomeokay.17:17
charlie-tcaWe can't ship privately due to customs and international laws17:17
knomeokay :)17:17
charlie-tcaWe can ship in our own countries, though17:17
knomeokay17:17
knomeso there's *no* way to ship internationally?17:17
knomenot even single discs?17:17
knomenot even randomly?17:18
knome:)17:18
SiDiWe can use relays nationally (locos / xubuntu community / whatever)17:18
ochosiwhere'd the funds come from for this?17:18
SiDibut still, printing the CDs is costy17:18
knomeochosi, personal funding.17:18
SiDiochosi: from us i suppose17:18
charlie-tcaIf you can deal with the customs and the ability to insure the disc is not drm/viruses/malware/etc17:18
knomeSiDi, a *CD* is a lot for somebody17:18
knomenot everybody can download the iso and burn it17:18
knomeit doesn't need to be "official"17:18
SiDii know that17:18
ochosibut knome, if people are unable to download and burn an iso, will they be able to online order a cd?17:19
charlie-tcaochosi: canonical sponsors shipit service for Ubuntu and Kubuntu cd's17:19
SiDiWell, if we burn them ourselves they're gonna have to be error-proof17:19
knomecharlie-tca, i suppose that sending from states is as easy as filling a green customs sticker :)17:19
knomeochosi, NO, they are not.17:19
knomeochosi, that's why we are discussing.17:19
charlie-tcano, it isn't, Knightlust17:19
charlie-tcaknome17:19
knomecharlie-tca, right...17:19
ochosiknome, ok17:19
SiDiit's easier to get some CD in each LUG but again people wont go to LUGs17:19
knomecharlie-tca, well at least i have no problems in shipping to EU countries.17:19
charlie-tcaI looked into it, and can't actually provide all the **P*J: they want17:19
SiDiso we still could ship them in walmart but i doubt they let us do !17:19
knomeit's just a cd... :)17:20
knomeit's not that many people *really* need the cd17:20
charlie-tcaIt is the government17:20
knomeabout 1-2 per month maybe17:20
ochosiknome, i see now, i thought this was only about shipping in your own country or the eu17:20
SiDiBut many people will order them knome17:20
knomeSiDi, we're not opening an *ordering* page17:20
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knomeif somebody really needs the cd, they come asking for it17:21
charlie-tcaGot a lot of forms to file here to prove it is safe and allowed17:21
SiDithen how do you want people to know they can order CD s ?17:21
knomeand maybe we can ship on to them17:21
charlie-tcaThey can not order a cd for xubuntu, SiDi17:21
knomeSiDi, they have to undestand they have to ask.17:21
knomeSiDi, i've seen a few people almost *crying* for a cd17:21
SiDiok so you'd advertise the possibility to negociate an officious CD on irc ?17:21
ochosiso you want to put some kind of message on xubuntu.org saying: if you're in real trouble donwloading/burning the image, contact us, we'll try to ship a disc?17:21
knomeno, we wouldn't advertise17:22
SiDiand we send a burnt CD with a hand-draw mouse on it ? :)17:22
knomeno, no advertising17:22
ochosihehe17:22
knomeSiDi, yes! :]17:22
* charlie-tca nods17:22
knomebasically, if somebody asks for a cd and really can't d/l it, we should be able to ship one to him/her17:22
knomeas our personal investment in open source17:22
knomethat's the core thing17:22
knomeand that's been discussed, right, charlie-tca ?17:23
charlie-tcaknome: you know I have been trying to. At this point, I can not ship outside of the USA17:23
knomecharlie-tca, well you can ship to usa. we at EU can ship to EU.17:23
SiDicharlie-tca: anyway i doubt anyone can ship easily outside of europe / usa17:23
charlie-tcacorrect, discussion has taken place.17:23
ochosiwell within the eu this wouldn't be a problem17:23
ochosiwhat countries are we talking about here anyway? *the world*?17:23
charlie-tcaI can't even get them to Mexico17:23
knomeochosi, the world, yes.17:24
charlie-tcaThat is correct, ochosi17:24
SiDiproblem is that for an individual its extremely expensive17:24
SiDiwe should better in this case find some contacts in every official LoCo17:24
knomethat's fine as well.17:24
charlie-tcaCosts me about 1.25 american dollars anywhere in the world17:24
ochosiis there a list of loco-teams for xubuntu (or do they even exist at all?)17:24
knomeochosi, there are.17:24
knomepeople just need to be ready to talk to a loco17:24
charlie-tcaochosi: we are part of the Ubuntu loco teams, normally17:24
SiDicharlie-tca: costs me about ~20 dollars outside of Europe17:25
ochosik17:25
knomeSiDi, you live in FRANCE.17:25
knomeSiDi, you are forgiven17:25
* cody-somerville has to go, bbl17:25
knomeSiDi, and damned :P17:25
knomecody-somerville, see you17:25
ochosii think he knows that :) knome17:25
SiDicody-somerville: bye17:25
cody-somerville\o_17:25
knomeanyway17:25
ochosicody-somerville, bye17:25
charlie-tcabrb17:25
knomeif somebody asks a cd, we should either mail them one or point them to loco's, everybody agree?17:25
ochosiagreed17:26
knomeokay17:26
SiDior we can get one mailed by the LoCo17:26
SiDicheaper17:26
SiDithats what i meant by LoCo contacts17:26
knomeSiDi, exactly - point the asking person to loco..17:26
SiDioh i mean we could give the address to the loco guy and ask him/her to send it17:26
knome[ACTION] For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves.17:26
MootBotACTION received:  For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves.17:27
knomeNEXT ITEM.17:27
SiDiwe'd have to decide who pays though17:27
knome[TOPIC] Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues17:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues17:27
knomeSiDi, we pay or the loco pays.17:27
* SiDi disconnects17:27
SiDiOk so17:27
knomeSiDi, it's not *that* expensive. if you can't then don't ship one and point them to loco.17:27
SiDiNotifyOsd is still under heavy development as you may know17:27
SiDiSome issues got fixed, others appear17:27
SiDiI'm gonna begin with the current issues as it's the main focus of development if we want to be able to ship n-o in good conditions for Karmic17:28
knome[TOPIC] .. Current issues17:28
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Current issues17:28
SiDiSo among minor problems, there are some lacking icons in n-o17:28
knomeSiDi, is somebody working on them?17:28
SiDiwe're not very concerned as we have Human installed as far as i know17:29
SiDiknome: no but at worse i suppose it's all about pinging kwwii and asking gently17:29
knomeokay, i can try to help as well17:29
SiDiThe main problems at the moment are a11y issues17:29
SiDiFirst, we can't theme n-o bubbles, which causes problems to some users17:29
SiDiThis is gonna be solved by MacSlow according to our last discussion. We will have some gconf keys for it17:30
SiDiso we can ship different defaults or add a little GUI for it17:30
SiDiThe most worrying thing is that n-o uses custom fonts / DPI settings from ... GNOME17:30
ochosirly? didn't know that17:30
SiDiMacSlow is ok with adding XFCE-specific stuff but he wants n-o to be compilable without this code by default17:30
SiDiSo i'm gonna patch n-o to use xfconf for this, and by the meanwhile i'll see if i can reallistically make n-o use xfconf everywhere gconf is used, so that we could ship a gconf-free n-o package17:31
knomeSiDi, so do you need how to proceed or you need some help with it? :)17:31
knome(from the xubuntu team)17:31
SiDiAnd of course this requires the authorization to upload a notify-osd-xfce package17:31
knomei think that's not a problem, you'd have to ask cody-somerville, though17:32
SiDiI need an official developer to sponsor the package if i write the needed changes17:32
SiDiI think it can fall under "fix bugs" though so it should be ok if im not done before the FeatureFreeze17:32
knome[ACTION] SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package.17:32
MootBotACTION received:  SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package.17:32
SiDiApart from that, we still have apps that misbehave with notify-osd17:32
knomeSiDi, cody-somerville can push anything through even after ff ;>>17:33
SiDiI spotted thunar-volman and xfce4-places-plugin17:33
knomeSiDi, are they obvious to fix?17:33
SiDiI'll patch them soon if everything goes fine, the patch is easy to write17:33
knomeokay17:33
SiDimaking a proper .patch file for the package and repackaging and uploading is less17:33
knome[ACTION] SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly17:33
MootBotACTION received:  SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly17:33
ochosithunar-volman and xfce4-places are both about mounting notifications?17:33
SiDiI know how to write code but it stops there, so i'll need guidance from real devs again17:33
SiDiochosi: yes17:33
SiDithey use actions in it17:33
knome[ACTION] SiDi needs help from "real" developers17:34
MootBotACTION received:  SiDi needs help from "real" developers17:34
ochosiand would that change if say thunar/gio was ready for karmic?17:34
SiDiit won't17:34
knomeSiDi, do you specifically mean the xubuntu devs or the original app devs here?17:34
SiDiApart from that, xfce4-volumed is implemented and working.17:34
SiDiknome: ours17:34
knomeokay.17:34
SiDii just need to be explained how to make a proper patch for a deb package17:34
charlie-tcaWell, we do have cody-somerville and mr_pouit  to help when needed, SiDi17:34
knome[ACTION] xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report.17:35
MootBotACTION received:  xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report.17:35
SiDiMy volume daemon works nicely, but it still uses ram : 2.9 MB on my 64bits install, so i think it should be easy to unset it from autostart17:35
knome[ACTION] mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;]17:35
MootBotACTION received:  mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;]17:35
SiDiI also want to patch gnome-settings-daemon in order to make its notifications easier to read. If you spot apps that use long and hard to read notifications, please file a bug and add me to subscribers (and mail me ;p )17:36
knomeSiDi, anything else you'd like to add?17:36
SiDiFinally, i'll also see with the xfce4-power-manager dev if he can add support for the XF86Power key so that i could patch xfce4-power-manager to use more simple notifications too17:36
knome[ACTION] If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him17:36
MootBotACTION received:  If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him17:36
SiDi(but he's already made an awesome work patching xf-p-m to use notify-osd !)17:36
* charlie-tca thinks that he won't be filing bugs for every notice he can't read.17:37
SiDiI'm done with this topic, but there are other topics i'd like to speak about17:37
knome[AGREED] SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :)17:37
MootBotAGREED received:  SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :)17:37
SiDiAnd i think ochosi may have a word to say about mail clients :p17:37
knomecharlie-tca, lol ;)17:37
SiDiknome: come on Q.Q17:37
knomeochosi, ?17:37
ochosiwell, SiDi and me had quite a few discussions about whether we prefer claws or tb17:37
* SiDi is actually ABSOLUTELY NOT humble.17:37
ochosispecifically for karmic17:38
knomeoh right17:38
knomeochosi, can you wait a bit?17:38
ochosinp17:38
knomelet's go through the other items quickly17:38
knome[TOPIC] Karmic Artwork Brainstorm17:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Karmic Artwork Brainstorm17:38
ochosimm, i like that :)17:38
knome[AGREED] knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork.17:38
MootBotAGREED received:  knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork.17:38
SiDiknome: !17:39
knome[IDEA] Something sky/clouds-related17:39
MootBotIDEA received:  Something sky/clouds-related17:39
knome[IDEA] PINK mice17:39
MootBotIDEA received:  PINK mice17:39
SiDiPink ?17:39
ochosi+1 for pink mice17:39
SiDiPurple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?17:39
charlie-tcaPINK???17:39
knome[IDEA] Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?17:40
MootBotIDEA received:  Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?17:40
knome[IDEA] PINK???17:40
MootBotIDEA received:  PINK???17:40
knome;]17:40
ochosii think you're the master of blue, knome. xubuntu should stay blue17:40
knome[IDEA] Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork?17:40
MootBotIDEA received:  Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork?17:40
knome[IDEA] Xubuntu should stay blue.17:40
MootBotIDEA received:  Xubuntu should stay blue.17:40
charlie-tcaKill that pink idea17:40
SiDisome hues of violet go very very well with blue17:40
knome[IDEA] Dark GTK theme.17:40
MootBotIDEA received:  Dark GTK theme.17:40
SiDibut pink is a bit hardcore17:41
knome[IDEA] knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha.17:41
MootBotIDEA received:  knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha.17:41
ochosii'm for dark panels with bright icons (especially for stuff like volume-icon etc)17:41
knomeSiDi, charlie-tca: it was a joke.. :)17:41
knome[IDEA] Dark panels with bright icons.17:41
MootBotIDEA received:  Dark panels with bright icons.17:41
SiDicharlie-tca: on a a11y point of view, is dark panels ok ?17:41
knome[IDEA] Black panels with black and black icons.17:41
MootBotIDEA received:  Black panels with black and black icons.17:41
ochosii'm for dark panels, no matter what gtk-theme is used for the rest tbh17:42
charlie-tcaAs long as panels and icons and text are all black, I guess so.17:42
charlie-tcaThat would fit in well with notify-osd for me ;-)17:42
ochosihehe17:43
knomecharlie-tca, remember when i worked with my dark theme? was that ok?17:43
knomecharlie-tca, a11y-wise?17:43
ochosii would also say that a theme joining the menu-bar and xfwm4 color-wise is nice (like the dust-theme)17:43
charlie-tcaI think so. I just change it to something I can read anyway17:43
ochosibut i know that knome will beg to differ17:43
knomei don't like it personally.17:43
SiDiochosi: like my last theme ? :D17:44
knomebut if we decide to go that way... well i can change it to something i lie. :P17:44
SiDihttp://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=10804617:44
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=10804617:44
SiDioh crap, mootbot17:44
knome[IDEA] Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4?17:44
MootBotIDEA received:  Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4?17:44
ochosiyay SiDi, nice theme btw17:44
knomeokay, anybody has something for the artwork brainstorm?17:44
SiDiochosi: it has a few (lots) of problems and work needed17:44
SiDiknome: you need to register to ubuntu-devel17:45
ochosithe icon theme will stay gnome-brave, knome ?17:45
knomeSiDi, why?17:45
SiDiand watch what goes on with usplash !17:45
SiDiThey're gonna use a custom X server apparently17:45
knomeochosi, if no better theme will show up17:45
knomeSiDi, right17:45
SiDimaybe asking kwwii and mat_t to keep you in touch about any official ubuntu artwork infrastructure changes may help too17:45
charlie-tcaSiDi: we still it to be able to use a Xubuntu usplash, please.17:45
knome[ACTION] knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash17:45
MootBotACTION received:  knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash17:45
ochosiknome, i'm fine with gnome-brave, only one general question: i assume you'll try to build on top of the most recent version of the theme..?17:45
SiDicharlie-tca: usplash would make us lose some boot time probably17:45
charlie-tcaWe are using theirs now, and I want ours back17:46
SiDiit's gonna be dropped, and plymouth too, in profit of faster / lighter solutions17:46
knomeochosi, can you be more specific, please?:)17:46
knome[IDEA] Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also?17:46
MootBotIDEA received:  Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also?17:46
* SiDi very dislikes some icons in gnome-brave17:46
ochosiknome, well, victor has been working on the theme quite a bit on gnome-brave since you took it for jaunty17:46
knome[AGREED] Some icons are not as good as they could be17:46
MootBotAGREED received:  Some icons are not as good as they could be17:46
SiDii'm more for a recolored version of Human/Humanity/Breathe, even if it takes _more_ time to setup17:47
knomeochosi, oh right. yes, if the newest version is in the repos, we'll use it.17:47
ochosiknome, i see17:47
knomewe're not going anywhere here and we're almost used all of our time17:47
charlie-tcaWe get good comments every release for not using Human, why would we go to it?17:47
knomeso if there is nothing *reallY* important, let's go on17:47
SiDiif we keep gnome-brave, is it possible to get more Humanish media icons ?17:47
ochosiSiDi, so making a list of icons we don't like in gnome-brave wouldn't be enough?17:47
ochosik17:47
SiDiespecially _not colored_ icons17:47
SiDiochosi: it'd be ok for me17:48
SiDii just prefer humanity / breathe's style :p but at least g-b is very complete17:48
knome[IDEA] Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons?17:48
MootBotIDEA received:  Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons?17:48
ochosiSiDi, cause i think it's mainly some icons like folders that are crucial17:48
SiDiso a list of icons we dont like could do it17:48
knome[IDEA] Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave?17:48
MootBotIDEA received:  Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave?17:48
charlie-tcaimportant:  All images today are working. This is the time to grab them for testing karmic.17:48
knome:]]]17:48
charlie-tcaWe haven't actually had any images since alpha2 that worked17:48
knomeok, enough of artwork...17:49
knome[TOPIC] Other items/ free word17:49
MootBotNew Topic:  Other items/ free word17:49
SiDiok, i let you begin ochosi17:49
charlie-tcaand, gnumeric is broken again17:49
knome[ACTION] Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today!17:49
MootBotACTION received:  Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today!17:49
knome[AGREED] Gnumeric is broken again17:49
MootBotAGREED received:  Gnumeric is broken again17:49
knome[TOPIC] .. Default mail client for Karmic17:49
ochosiok, so we had a few discussions about tb versus claws17:49
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Default mail client for Karmic17:49
ochosii'll try to keep this as short as possible17:50
knomenp, just tell everything you need to17:50
knomei think we can go a bit over 1 hour so absolutely *NO PANIC* :)17:50
ochosii'm not entirely sure anymore, which is the best default mail client any more. in the beginning i was quite convinced that claws is amazing17:50
ochosii still think it's amazing, but SiDi convinced me that it really has some usability issues17:50
knomethunderbird is great featurewise and many people would like to use it regardless if it's the default or not.17:51
SiDi*evil grin*17:51
ochosithe menus, the filtering, the settings dialog, most things are too cluttered17:51
ochosiyeah, i don't mind anymore if tb is the default17:51
knomehehe17:51
ochosieven though i'm not sure what you brought forward is a good argument, knome ;)17:51
SiDii think we can afford to adopt it now as its not a LTS cycle17:51
knome[AGREED] TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise.17:52
MootBotAGREED received:  TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise.17:52
knome;)17:52
SiDiknome: TB doesnt beat claws featurewise as far as i understood17:52
ochosiwell, it's a question of usability versus lightweight17:52
ochosiyes, i disagree with that too. it's not a feature-question17:52
knome[AGREED] It's a question of usability VS. lightweight17:52
MootBotAGREED received:  It's a question of usability VS. lightweight17:52
ochosiyou can do really *a lot* with claws17:52
SiDiIf we go for claws though, we should expect to be able to greatly improve its flaws for the next release, and be ready to receive feedback (especially negative critique)17:52
SiDiin order to bring this feedback to the claws devs so they can improve it17:53
knomemany people are not that familiar with claws.17:53
ochosiyes, i agree17:53
knomethat's what makes TB look like as easier to use17:53
ochosiyeah, many people are not that familiar with thunar either ;)17:53
SiDiAlso, do we believe that the users of xubuntu have the same profile than the users claws mail targets ?17:53
ochosiyes, that's a good question, SiDi17:53
SiDiochosi: thunar is a piece of cake to use :)17:53
ochosii never said anything else17:54
ochosiand i think that's what i think you devs have to decide17:54
* ochosi goes to the doorbell. apologizes17:54
SiDiI'd like to add something not so related but it should be in the meeting logs17:54
knomeSiDi, wait a sec.17:55
SiDiSomeone _MUST_ get in touch with alacarte's developer to see if he's worked on an xfce compatible menu editor17:55
knome[AGREED] We need to decide on the default mail client17:55
MootBotAGREED received:  We need to decide on the default mail client17:55
* SiDi waited a sec :P17:55
SiDi(technically i mean ~)17:55
knome[TOPIC] .. Menu editor for Xfce?!17:55
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Menu editor for Xfce?!17:55
ochosiok, back17:55
mr_pouitfor 4.817:55
SiDimr_pouit: so it will not be ready at all for Karmic ?17:55
mr_pouitno17:56
SiDiok, i think its one of the biggest user expectations17:56
SiDimr_pouit: its gonna be worked on by Jannis right ?17:56
knome[AGREED] No menu editor for 4.8 is bad.17:56
mr_pouityes17:56
MootBotAGREED received:  No menu editor for 4.8 is bad.17:56
SiDiknome: for 9.10 ;p17:56
ochosiyes i agree, many people complain about it. even though i don't think so many people really edit their menu...17:56
knomeright.. sorry17:56
knome[AGREED] EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad.17:57
MootBotAGREED received:  EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad.17:57
SiDiochosi: usually you just remove half of it once, but doing it manually sucks for Xubuntu users17:57
ochosiSiDi, k17:57
SiDiok so i suppose someone should take upon himself to grab alacarte's source and to make a fork out of it for XFCE ?17:57
knome[IDEA] Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app?17:57
MootBotIDEA received:  Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app?17:57
SiDiI think it was Jannis's plan anyway17:57
knome[IDEA] Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce17:57
MootBotIDEA received:  Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce17:57
* SiDi is not gonna do it :p17:57
mr_pouitno17:58
knome[IDEA] SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not.17:58
MootBotIDEA received:  SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not.17:58
mr_pouitHe's already working with Jannis17:58
mr_pouitthere is no need to fork or whatever17:58
SiDimr_pouit: but do you have recent news about it ?17:58
knome[ACTION] Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork.17:58
MootBotACTION received:  Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork.17:58
knomeONLY A FEW MINUTES LEFT PEOPLE!!!17:58
SiDiafaik the alacarte dev will make a fork of it that works with XFCE17:59
mr_pouitSiDi: jannis has been working on thunar-gio recently17:59
ochosiwhat about the other default apps for karmic?17:59
ochosii mean the ones where specs exist17:59
knome[TOPIC] .. Other default appsfor Karmic17:59
MootBotNew Topic:  .. Other default appsfor Karmic17:59
SiDimr_pouit: yeh, i follow xfce-dev, and i know hes gonna be busy for a while with thunar, so thats why i was wondering if it would be ok to replace him for the work on the menu editor17:59
knomelike which?17:59
mr_pouitSiDi: but 'everything' should be in a git experimental branch somewehere17:59
knomeochosi, ?18:00
SiDiok so i suppose its time to talk about the music player18:00
ochosiok, so there's music app (SiDi)18:00
knomewe are technically out of time so only quick comments please18:00
SiDiknome: is there any urgency ?18:00
knome[TOPIC] .... Media player?18:00
MootBotNew Topic:  .... Media player?18:00
knomeSiDi, i need to go soonish and i have to finish the meeting18:00
ochosiSiDi, did you have time to look into gmusicbrowser?18:00
SiDiOk, so, i've had a look at the main media players for GTK18:00
SiDiochosi: i launched it once or twice but i didnt look in details18:01
SiDii didnt finish the spec actually18:01
SiDii also had a look at parole18:01
SiDiand quod libet18:01
knomewhat about something mpd-powered? :}18:01
SiDiwe're currently shipping Listen, so users dont expect to have something heavier with lesser features, sounds obvious18:01
SiDiknome: mpd is not adaptated at all for use with several users18:01
ochosido you think that would be better in usability than claws, knome? :)18:01
SiDiand its a pain to configure18:01
SiDii couldnt even get it to run with a GUI knome18:02
knomeochosi, there's no comparison between claws and mpd.. ;]18:02
SiDiand i didnt invest much more time that an average end user would18:02
knomeSiDi, you suck.18:02
SiDiso thats quite bad18:02
SiDiknome: write me a tutorial then18:02
knomewe would of course set that up.18:02
knomeSiDi, right. i will when i have that 5mins time :P18:02
SiDiimo mpd is not adapted at all for per-user use18:02
=== WelshDragon is now known as YDdraigGoch
SiDiso i looked in details at rb / exaile / banshee / listen as they were the most feature-rich18:03
SiDii know there are lighter GUI ones, ie. parole and gmusicbrowser, but i think it's better to offer a complete media suite as default18:03
knometrue.18:03
SiDias users who need something really lighter will go for mpd anyway18:03
charlie-tcayes it is, but not one tied to pulseaudio18:03
knome\o/18:03
SiDiso i looked a tthe most obvious things. They all play music (yes they do), they work more or less the same in an xfce desktop18:04
SiDilisten became much much heavier than it used to be18:04
SiDiand it seems to be the one with the worse GUI and lesser features, so i think it can be safely dropped18:04
SiDifor dependencies, exaile may have a few more ones than listen (it puts more gstreamer plugins - needed anyway - into its recommanded deps)18:05
SiDiRB requires libgnome, brasero and other fancy stuff18:05
SiDiBanshee requires libgnome too, and ~100 MB of mono libs18:05
knomeSiDi, what's your final outcome?18:05
=== dharman is now known as dharman_away
SiDiknome: im far from final outcome :p18:05
knomesorry if i'm rushing you... :P18:05
SiDirb is the lightest for RAM usage18:05
knomeSiDi, what's your current feeling?18:05
SiDibut it has memory leaks (they all have ~ )18:05
charlie-tcaGot to come up with one, though, if we drop listen18:05
SiDithe one with least memory leaks is exaile18:05
SiDiI'm for Exaile, personally18:06
SiDibut i cant take a decision on my own, it wouldnt be honnest ~ im too tied to exaile18:06
knome[IDEA] ATM SiDi is for Exaile18:06
MootBotIDEA received:  ATM SiDi is for Exaile18:06
SiDithats why im exposing this to you now18:06
knomei don't disagree with that.18:06
ochosii'm for exaile too18:06
SiDiExaile is light, has decent dependencies, not many memory leaks18:06
knomeit might be a good choice really.18:06
ochosiat least with the choice given18:06
knome[AGREED] Exaile might be just what we want.18:06
MootBotAGREED received:  Exaile might be just what we want.18:06
SiDiIt has suffered from lack of development lately, but the 3 main devs are now extremely actively workingon it18:06
charlie-tcaLet's propose replacing Listen with Exaile, then, and try to get cody-somerville to make the changes18:06
SiDiand Exaile 0.3 should be ready for Feature Freeze18:06
SiDiAnd since i thought it would be the best choice, i began working a little on exaile :)18:07
knome[ACTION] Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile.18:07
MootBotACTION received:  Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile.18:07
charlie-tcaWe need to have cody-somerville seed exaile for testing18:07
SiDiie. notification plugin (you can find vids of it in my youtube account)18:07
knome[ACTION] cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing18:07
MootBotACTION received:  cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing18:07
charlie-tcaWe can leave Listen there for now, and give exaile a chance to be tested18:07
knome[ACTION] SiDi has started working with Exaile already18:07
MootBotACTION received:  SiDi has started working with Exaile already18:07
SiDiand i'm working on some usability / GUI stuff, and also a plugin for better media keys support18:07
SiDi(so far NO player behaves correctly for the media keys outside of gnome)18:08
knome[AGREED] We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later.18:08
MootBotAGREED received:  We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later.18:08
SiDi(Exaile had a plugin but i have to port it to the latest version for it to work fine)18:08
SiDiThats all18:08
knomeokay.18:08
knomeany other default apps we should discuss?18:08
SiDiNow i'd like to say a word about the "Slim session down" spec18:08
knomeo.O18:08
charlie-tcaAnything better than firefox?18:08
SiDicharlie-tca: not yet :)18:08
knome[TOPIC] .. "Slim session down" -spec18:08
MootBotNew Topic:  .. "Slim session down" -spec18:08
charlie-tcaIn Karmic, it uses 3-10 percent of the cpu continuously18:09
knomecharlie-tca, epiphany does not work, midori is too alpha.18:09
SiDimidori is lighter than it used to be18:09
SiDiit has support for flash and various basic things18:09
knomeSiDi, but it is still too alpha.18:09
charlie-tcaepiphany don't work?18:09
SiDibut i think its far from FF's features (of course since FF is heavily funded)18:09
knomeepiphany/midori crash all the time18:09
SiDiyeh they're very unstable18:09
knomefor me at least18:09
charlie-tcamidori I have fought with. I need to do a bug report for it for xfce18:09
knomethat's unacceptable.18:09
SiDiso is chromium (all webkit based ~ muaha)18:09
knomeSiDi, see the topic :P18:10
knomeSiDi, slim!18:10
SiDiknome: i know you switched too fast ~ :P18:10
knomeSiDi, session! :P18:10
SiDiOk so i had an idea18:10
knome[IDEA] ??18:10
MootBotIDEA received:  ??18:10
SiDiAccording to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage18:10
charlie-tcaSiDi: that one could be a good idea?18:10
SiDithats quite logical : we ship update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM18:10
knome[AGREED] According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage18:10
MootBotAGREED received:  According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage18:10
SiDinow the bad news is that its not going to be better in karmic18:11
knome[AGREED] We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM18:11
MootBotAGREED received:  We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM18:11
SiDiof course, apps get more features so more RAM usage, and if we add notify-osd / xfce4-volumed we may lose a few megs too18:11
SiDiso my idea is the following !18:11
knome[AGREED] It's not going to be better in Karmic.18:11
MootBotAGREED received:  It's not going to be better in Karmic.18:11
knome;)18:11
SiDiWe should be able to check the user's RAM during the install18:11
knome[IDEA] ??!!18:11
MootBotIDEA received:  ??!!18:11
charlie-tcaI disagree with that agreed thing18:11
knome[AGREED] charlie-tca disagrees...18:12
MootBotAGREED received:  charlie-tca disagrees...18:12
SiDiand if user has less than XXX RAM, we should disable some daemons from autostart18:12
ochosisounds experimental18:12
SiDitill we estimate that the average ram usage would be under YYY18:12
SiDiochosi: indeed. i dont know if its feasible18:12
knome[IDEA] Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically18:12
MootBotIDEA received:  Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically18:12
charlie-tcaSiDi: if we can disable them for some users, why do we have them?18:12
SiDithe idea is that we disable all the non-vital userspace daemons for users with not enough RAM18:12
SiDicharlie-tca: because they're a good plus for usability18:12
SiDibut i mean, do you _really_ need them ? update-notifier is enhancement18:12
SiDixfce4-volumed too18:13
SiDiyou can useyour computer without them, even if its better when they run18:13
knome[IDEA] Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM?18:13
MootBotIDEA received:  Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM?18:13
charlie-tcaIf not everybody gets them, how do they decide Xubuntu is really worth using?18:13
SiDibut if we want users with 200 MB of ram to can use Xubuntu, we can save 30/40 MB ram this way18:13
charlie-tcaSeems like everybody should have the same things running.18:13
SiDicharlie-tca: it would be only on critical RAM18:13
knome[IDEA] Users are able to disable services themselves...18:13
MootBotIDEA received:  Users are able to disable services themselves...18:13
ochosii think this is difficult, you won't have consistent experiences of xubuntu anymore18:13
charlie-tcaWe can use Jaunty in 128MB, we should instead pare down karmic to use that18:14
SiDiWhat if we ship a checkbox "Disable userspace services by default" in the Advanced tab of the installer ?18:14
knome[AGREED] We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons18:14
MootBotAGREED received:  We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons18:14
knome[IDEA] Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default?18:14
MootBotIDEA received:  Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default?18:14
SiDicharlie-tca: im not sure you can get _Xubuntu_ running under 128 forever18:14
knomewe don't need to get it running *under* 12818:15
SiDiXfce is not so light, GDM takes a good 30 MB, and we add some ubuntu stuff that isnt light at all (including my own daemon)18:15
knomeis that it?18:15
charlie-tcaI have three systems using Xubuntu, they all need to be the same. They should never be different if they are using the same thing.18:15
charlie-tcaSiDi: I don't think we can, but we need to maintain consistent interfaces and applications for all users18:16
knome[IDEA] ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu18:16
MootBotIDEA received:  ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu18:16
SiDiWell, thats all i had to say :)18:16
ochosii think we should decide what "light" means. just ram usage?18:16
charlie-tcaIf Xubuntu can't be used, we should say so18:16
knomeokay, anything else?18:16
knomephew18:16
SiDiknome: it requires a lot of work prior to working18:16
SiDiochosi: yeh, ram usage here indeed18:16
knomehe's willing to do it18:16
ScottKNote: neither Ubuntu nor Kubuntu disable compositing by default because some video hardware doesn't support it.18:16
SiDiScottK: and some users cant boot :p18:17
knomeSiDi, that might not be in for karmic, but the work can be started now.18:17
knomeanything else about anything?18:17
ScottKSiDi: Sure, but the point is it's not at all unusual to treat different hardware configurations somewhat differently.18:17
knomei'm ending the meeting soon...18:17
charlie-tcahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument18:17
knome[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument18:18
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument18:18
=== RainCT_ is now known as RainCT
SiDiWell i'm done then18:18
charlie-tcadefines our strategy. Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where xubuntu is supposed to be going?18:18
knomePHEW! THANKS!18:18
knomecharlie-tca, that is wonderfully said18:18
SiDicharlie-tca: i have the feeling that we want to be lightweight and feature ful at the same time :)18:18
knome[IDEA] Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going?18:19
MootBotIDEA received:  Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going?18:19
charlie-tcaand we can be18:19
knome#endmeeting18:19
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:19.18:19
SiDione day we will have to meet and define what we want to do, but now isnt the best time for it18:19
knomeyep.18:19
SiDiokwell, thanks everyone for coming :p18:19
charlie-tcaSiDi: the strategy docs do define that18:19
knomeimpromptu meetings are allowed as well about the smaller items18:19
knomethanks18:19
knomesomebody want to set up the minutes?18:19
charlie-tcaThanks for chairing, knome18:19
knomecharlie-tca, no problem18:19
knomeeven if we took 20mins extra ;)18:19
ochosiyay, i think that's a good sign :)18:20
SiDithats ok knome :p18:20
ochosiat least in some respect18:20
knomeSiDi, i will sacrifice one kitten for every extra minute18:20
SiDiWe didnt get shout at anyway18:20
* SiDi kills knome instantly with a fireball18:20
knome:P18:21
knomeok, i'll put the minutes online then.18:21
SiDiokies :p18:21
knomeit will take some time but i'll do it18:21
knomethanks, i'll go have some time with my *wife*18:21
knome...18:21
knomeSiDi, *I* got shouted at... :P18:21
knome->18:21
charlie-tca\o/18:22

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