=== asac_ is now known as asac === Moon_Wolf is now known as lukjad007 === swoody_ is now known as swoody === asac_ is now known as asac === Igorot is now known as Knightlust === mdz_ is now known as mdz === lukjad007 is now known as Moon_Wolf === Moon_Wolf is now known as lukjad007 [16:59] cody-somerville: heya ? [17:02] knome: we're waiting for you then D: [17:02] ok, give me a few minutes :) [17:03] do you know how to use the meeting bot ? :p [17:03] yeo, [17:03] #startmeeting [17:03] Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is knome. [17:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:03] okay, let's start [17:04] Can I just toss something in before I have to run? [17:04] sure. :)? [17:05] Hi [17:05] hello cody [17:05] We had a conversation yesterday in #ubuntu-x about the dontzap package. It's not needed for Ubuntu/Kubuntu since upstream provides a GUI for the change. We didn't think Xubuntu needed it either, but I thought I mention it. [17:05] Heya cody-somerville [17:05] Hi [17:05] I'll be gone in ten minutes or so, dinner, and return after that :) [17:05] dontzap is currently not working in karmic anyway, so the intent is to just remove it. [17:05] okay [17:05] ScottK: its the package that allows reenabling Ctrl+Alt+Backspace ? [17:05] SiDi: Yes. [17:05] ok, thanks ScottK :) [17:05] No problem here with that [17:06] ScottK: err, then we have to modify xorg.conf on our own ? :/ [17:06] is there somebody who volunteers putting the minutes online? i can send the mootbot log once we're finished. [17:06] SiDi: No. Apparently there's a lib that supports this that xfce uses too. [17:07] ScottK: i think this should be confirmed with xfce devs. i've never seen a gui for that thing [17:07] It's xklavier that they were mentioning [17:07] SiDi: but you can still enable it with xorg, right [17:08] ? [17:08] You've now exhausted my knowledge of the topic. [17:08] I think actually you can't do it in xorg anymore. [17:08] You have to use xklavier or whatever. [17:08] it can be done with xorg indeed charlie-tca, but dontzap is more typo-proof :) [17:08] oh [17:08] hey ochosi [17:08] hey everyone [17:09] sorry for being late [17:09] no problem [17:09] we were just starting [17:09] ok, good [17:09] SiDi: If I understand the discussion in #ubuntu-x yesterday, I think xorg doesn't work anymore in Karmic. [17:09] ScottK: ok then maybe we should keep dontzap :D [17:09] SiDi: I'd talk to tseliot about it. [17:09] i think we have to investigate this anyway [17:09] ScottK: thanks [17:09] SiDi: then the question also has to be asked, who will maintain it? [17:10] does it need to be maintained ? :/ [17:10] SiDi, are you willing to investigate further? [17:10] Will it be useable as other stuff changes ? [17:11] If we want it kept, any bugs filed will have to be fixed by us, won't they? [17:11] knome: as long as it doesnt involve coding / packaging it should be ok [17:11] okay [17:11] Anyhow [17:11] [ACT] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:11] oops [17:12] [ACTION] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:12] ACTION received: SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:12] Lets move forward with the agenda [17:12] cody-somerville, i started the meeting as you didn't show up early enough. :) [17:12] I can't stay too long [17:12] [TOPIC] Review last meetings action items [17:12] New Topic: Review last meetings action items [17:12] Dinner, if I'm needed for anything please push it to the back of the agenda :P [17:12] [TOPIC] .. Team reports [17:12] New Topic: .. Team reports [17:13] has everyone updated the team reports? :) [17:13] I forgot. I'll do my part later today [17:13] okay [17:13] not really [17:13] [ACTION] Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS. [17:13] ACTION received: Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS. [17:14] What is a team report ? :| [17:14] [TOPIC] .. Documentation and artwork for documentation [17:14] New Topic: .. Documentation and artwork for documentation [17:14] SiDi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports [17:15] j1mc doesn't seem to be available [17:15] there's not much progress [17:15] so let's move on [17:15] [TOPIC] .. Testing wiki pages [17:15] New Topic: .. Testing wiki pages [17:16] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short [17:16] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short [17:16] charlie-tca, how are they coming along? [17:16] ouch [17:16] forgot to do that [17:16] the action item: # [17:16] * [17:16] the action item: Charlie to work on the Testing wiki pages and split them to be shorter and readable. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short) [17:16] no problem. [17:16] :) [17:16] Yeah, I will have to work that one [17:16] [ACTION] charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff [17:16] ACTION received: charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff [17:16] [TOPIC] .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs [17:16] New Topic: .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs [17:16] is there anything to this? [17:17] I thought we beat that to death [17:17] We lack funds for this. [17:17] okay. [17:17] We can't ship privately due to customs and international laws [17:17] okay :) [17:17] We can ship in our own countries, though [17:17] okay [17:17] so there's *no* way to ship internationally? [17:17] not even single discs? [17:18] not even randomly? [17:18] :) [17:18] We can use relays nationally (locos / xubuntu community / whatever) [17:18] where'd the funds come from for this? [17:18] but still, printing the CDs is costy [17:18] ochosi, personal funding. [17:18] ochosi: from us i suppose [17:18] If you can deal with the customs and the ability to insure the disc is not drm/viruses/malware/etc [17:18] SiDi, a *CD* is a lot for somebody [17:18] not everybody can download the iso and burn it [17:18] it doesn't need to be "official" [17:18] i know that [17:19] but knome, if people are unable to download and burn an iso, will they be able to online order a cd? [17:19] ochosi: canonical sponsors shipit service for Ubuntu and Kubuntu cd's [17:19] Well, if we burn them ourselves they're gonna have to be error-proof [17:19] charlie-tca, i suppose that sending from states is as easy as filling a green customs sticker :) [17:19] ochosi, NO, they are not. [17:19] ochosi, that's why we are discussing. [17:19] no, it isn't, Knightlust [17:19] knome [17:19] charlie-tca, right... [17:19] knome, ok [17:19] it's easier to get some CD in each LUG but again people wont go to LUGs [17:19] charlie-tca, well at least i have no problems in shipping to EU countries. [17:19] I looked into it, and can't actually provide all the **P*J: they want [17:19] so we still could ship them in walmart but i doubt they let us do ! [17:20] it's just a cd... :) [17:20] it's not that many people *really* need the cd [17:20] It is the government [17:20] about 1-2 per month maybe [17:20] knome, i see now, i thought this was only about shipping in your own country or the eu [17:20] But many people will order them knome [17:20] SiDi, we're not opening an *ordering* page === clive is now known as Guest78263 [17:21] if somebody really needs the cd, they come asking for it [17:21] Got a lot of forms to file here to prove it is safe and allowed [17:21] then how do you want people to know they can order CD s ? [17:21] and maybe we can ship on to them [17:21] They can not order a cd for xubuntu, SiDi [17:21] SiDi, they have to undestand they have to ask. [17:21] SiDi, i've seen a few people almost *crying* for a cd [17:21] ok so you'd advertise the possibility to negociate an officious CD on irc ? [17:21] so you want to put some kind of message on xubuntu.org saying: if you're in real trouble donwloading/burning the image, contact us, we'll try to ship a disc? [17:22] no, we wouldn't advertise [17:22] and we send a burnt CD with a hand-draw mouse on it ? :) [17:22] no, no advertising [17:22] hehe [17:22] SiDi, yes! :] [17:22] * charlie-tca nods [17:22] basically, if somebody asks for a cd and really can't d/l it, we should be able to ship one to him/her [17:22] as our personal investment in open source [17:22] that's the core thing [17:23] and that's been discussed, right, charlie-tca ? [17:23] knome: you know I have been trying to. At this point, I can not ship outside of the USA [17:23] charlie-tca, well you can ship to usa. we at EU can ship to EU. [17:23] charlie-tca: anyway i doubt anyone can ship easily outside of europe / usa [17:23] correct, discussion has taken place. [17:23] well within the eu this wouldn't be a problem [17:23] what countries are we talking about here anyway? *the world*? [17:23] I can't even get them to Mexico [17:24] ochosi, the world, yes. [17:24] That is correct, ochosi [17:24] problem is that for an individual its extremely expensive [17:24] we should better in this case find some contacts in every official LoCo [17:24] that's fine as well. [17:24] Costs me about 1.25 american dollars anywhere in the world [17:24] is there a list of loco-teams for xubuntu (or do they even exist at all?) [17:24] ochosi, there are. [17:24] people just need to be ready to talk to a loco [17:24] ochosi: we are part of the Ubuntu loco teams, normally [17:25] charlie-tca: costs me about ~20 dollars outside of Europe [17:25] k [17:25] SiDi, you live in FRANCE. [17:25] SiDi, you are forgiven [17:25] * cody-somerville has to go, bbl [17:25] SiDi, and damned :P [17:25] cody-somerville, see you [17:25] i think he knows that :) knome [17:25] cody-somerville: bye [17:25] \o_ [17:25] anyway [17:25] cody-somerville, bye [17:25] brb [17:25] if somebody asks a cd, we should either mail them one or point them to loco's, everybody agree? [17:26] agreed [17:26] okay [17:26] or we can get one mailed by the LoCo [17:26] cheaper [17:26] thats what i meant by LoCo contacts [17:26] SiDi, exactly - point the asking person to loco.. [17:26] oh i mean we could give the address to the loco guy and ask him/her to send it [17:26] [ACTION] For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves. [17:27] ACTION received: For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves. [17:27] NEXT ITEM. [17:27] we'd have to decide who pays though [17:27] [TOPIC] Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues [17:27] New Topic: Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues [17:27] SiDi, we pay or the loco pays. [17:27] * SiDi disconnects [17:27] Ok so [17:27] SiDi, it's not *that* expensive. if you can't then don't ship one and point them to loco. [17:27] NotifyOsd is still under heavy development as you may know [17:27] Some issues got fixed, others appear [17:28] I'm gonna begin with the current issues as it's the main focus of development if we want to be able to ship n-o in good conditions for Karmic [17:28] [TOPIC] .. Current issues [17:28] New Topic: .. Current issues [17:28] So among minor problems, there are some lacking icons in n-o [17:28] SiDi, is somebody working on them? [17:29] we're not very concerned as we have Human installed as far as i know [17:29] knome: no but at worse i suppose it's all about pinging kwwii and asking gently [17:29] okay, i can try to help as well [17:29] The main problems at the moment are a11y issues [17:29] First, we can't theme n-o bubbles, which causes problems to some users [17:30] This is gonna be solved by MacSlow according to our last discussion. We will have some gconf keys for it [17:30] so we can ship different defaults or add a little GUI for it [17:30] The most worrying thing is that n-o uses custom fonts / DPI settings from ... GNOME [17:30] rly? didn't know that [17:30] MacSlow is ok with adding XFCE-specific stuff but he wants n-o to be compilable without this code by default [17:31] So i'm gonna patch n-o to use xfconf for this, and by the meanwhile i'll see if i can reallistically make n-o use xfconf everywhere gconf is used, so that we could ship a gconf-free n-o package [17:31] SiDi, so do you need how to proceed or you need some help with it? :) [17:31] (from the xubuntu team) [17:31] And of course this requires the authorization to upload a notify-osd-xfce package [17:32] i think that's not a problem, you'd have to ask cody-somerville, though [17:32] I need an official developer to sponsor the package if i write the needed changes [17:32] I think it can fall under "fix bugs" though so it should be ok if im not done before the FeatureFreeze [17:32] [ACTION] SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package. [17:32] ACTION received: SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package. [17:32] Apart from that, we still have apps that misbehave with notify-osd [17:33] SiDi, cody-somerville can push anything through even after ff ;>> [17:33] I spotted thunar-volman and xfce4-places-plugin [17:33] SiDi, are they obvious to fix? [17:33] I'll patch them soon if everything goes fine, the patch is easy to write [17:33] okay [17:33] making a proper .patch file for the package and repackaging and uploading is less [17:33] [ACTION] SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly [17:33] ACTION received: SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly [17:33] thunar-volman and xfce4-places are both about mounting notifications? [17:33] I know how to write code but it stops there, so i'll need guidance from real devs again [17:33] ochosi: yes [17:33] they use actions in it [17:34] [ACTION] SiDi needs help from "real" developers [17:34] ACTION received: SiDi needs help from "real" developers [17:34] and would that change if say thunar/gio was ready for karmic? [17:34] it won't [17:34] SiDi, do you specifically mean the xubuntu devs or the original app devs here? [17:34] Apart from that, xfce4-volumed is implemented and working. [17:34] knome: ours [17:34] okay. [17:34] i just need to be explained how to make a proper patch for a deb package [17:34] Well, we do have cody-somerville and mr_pouit to help when needed, SiDi [17:35] [ACTION] xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report. [17:35] ACTION received: xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report. [17:35] My volume daemon works nicely, but it still uses ram : 2.9 MB on my 64bits install, so i think it should be easy to unset it from autostart [17:35] [ACTION] mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;] [17:35] ACTION received: mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;] [17:36] I also want to patch gnome-settings-daemon in order to make its notifications easier to read. If you spot apps that use long and hard to read notifications, please file a bug and add me to subscribers (and mail me ;p ) [17:36] SiDi, anything else you'd like to add? [17:36] Finally, i'll also see with the xfce4-power-manager dev if he can add support for the XF86Power key so that i could patch xfce4-power-manager to use more simple notifications too [17:36] [ACTION] If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him [17:36] ACTION received: If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him [17:36] (but he's already made an awesome work patching xf-p-m to use notify-osd !) [17:37] * charlie-tca thinks that he won't be filing bugs for every notice he can't read. [17:37] I'm done with this topic, but there are other topics i'd like to speak about [17:37] [AGREED] SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :) [17:37] AGREED received: SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :) [17:37] And i think ochosi may have a word to say about mail clients :p [17:37] charlie-tca, lol ;) [17:37] knome: come on Q.Q [17:37] ochosi, ? [17:37] well, SiDi and me had quite a few discussions about whether we prefer claws or tb [17:37] * SiDi is actually ABSOLUTELY NOT humble. [17:38] specifically for karmic [17:38] oh right [17:38] ochosi, can you wait a bit? [17:38] np [17:38] let's go through the other items quickly [17:38] [TOPIC] Karmic Artwork Brainstorm [17:38] New Topic: Karmic Artwork Brainstorm [17:38] mm, i like that :) [17:38] [AGREED] knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork. [17:38] AGREED received: knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork. [17:39] knome: ! [17:39] [IDEA] Something sky/clouds-related [17:39] IDEA received: Something sky/clouds-related [17:39] [IDEA] PINK mice [17:39] IDEA received: PINK mice [17:39] Pink ? [17:39] +1 for pink mice [17:39] Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:39] PINK??? [17:40] [IDEA] Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:40] IDEA received: Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:40] [IDEA] PINK??? [17:40] IDEA received: PINK??? [17:40] ;] [17:40] i think you're the master of blue, knome. xubuntu should stay blue [17:40] [IDEA] Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork? [17:40] IDEA received: Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork? [17:40] [IDEA] Xubuntu should stay blue. [17:40] IDEA received: Xubuntu should stay blue. [17:40] Kill that pink idea [17:40] some hues of violet go very very well with blue [17:40] [IDEA] Dark GTK theme. [17:40] IDEA received: Dark GTK theme. [17:41] but pink is a bit hardcore [17:41] [IDEA] knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha. [17:41] IDEA received: knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha. [17:41] i'm for dark panels with bright icons (especially for stuff like volume-icon etc) [17:41] SiDi, charlie-tca: it was a joke.. :) [17:41] [IDEA] Dark panels with bright icons. [17:41] IDEA received: Dark panels with bright icons. [17:41] charlie-tca: on a a11y point of view, is dark panels ok ? [17:41] [IDEA] Black panels with black and black icons. [17:41] IDEA received: Black panels with black and black icons. [17:42] i'm for dark panels, no matter what gtk-theme is used for the rest tbh [17:42] As long as panels and icons and text are all black, I guess so. [17:42] That would fit in well with notify-osd for me ;-) [17:43] hehe [17:43] charlie-tca, remember when i worked with my dark theme? was that ok? [17:43] charlie-tca, a11y-wise? [17:43] i would also say that a theme joining the menu-bar and xfwm4 color-wise is nice (like the dust-theme) [17:43] I think so. I just change it to something I can read anyway [17:43] but i know that knome will beg to differ [17:43] i don't like it personally. [17:44] ochosi: like my last theme ? :D [17:44] but if we decide to go that way... well i can change it to something i lie. :P [17:44] http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046 [17:44] LINK received: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046 [17:44] oh crap, mootbot [17:44] [IDEA] Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4? [17:44] IDEA received: Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4? [17:44] yay SiDi, nice theme btw [17:44] okay, anybody has something for the artwork brainstorm? [17:44] ochosi: it has a few (lots) of problems and work needed [17:45] knome: you need to register to ubuntu-devel [17:45] the icon theme will stay gnome-brave, knome ? [17:45] SiDi, why? [17:45] and watch what goes on with usplash ! [17:45] They're gonna use a custom X server apparently [17:45] ochosi, if no better theme will show up [17:45] SiDi, right [17:45] maybe asking kwwii and mat_t to keep you in touch about any official ubuntu artwork infrastructure changes may help too [17:45] SiDi: we still it to be able to use a Xubuntu usplash, please. [17:45] [ACTION] knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash [17:45] ACTION received: knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash [17:45] knome, i'm fine with gnome-brave, only one general question: i assume you'll try to build on top of the most recent version of the theme..? [17:45] charlie-tca: usplash would make us lose some boot time probably [17:46] We are using theirs now, and I want ours back [17:46] it's gonna be dropped, and plymouth too, in profit of faster / lighter solutions [17:46] ochosi, can you be more specific, please?:) [17:46] [IDEA] Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also? [17:46] IDEA received: Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also? [17:46] * SiDi very dislikes some icons in gnome-brave [17:46] knome, well, victor has been working on the theme quite a bit on gnome-brave since you took it for jaunty [17:46] [AGREED] Some icons are not as good as they could be [17:46] AGREED received: Some icons are not as good as they could be [17:47] i'm more for a recolored version of Human/Humanity/Breathe, even if it takes _more_ time to setup [17:47] ochosi, oh right. yes, if the newest version is in the repos, we'll use it. [17:47] knome, i see [17:47] we're not going anywhere here and we're almost used all of our time [17:47] We get good comments every release for not using Human, why would we go to it? [17:47] so if there is nothing *reallY* important, let's go on [17:47] if we keep gnome-brave, is it possible to get more Humanish media icons ? [17:47] SiDi, so making a list of icons we don't like in gnome-brave wouldn't be enough? [17:47] k [17:47] especially _not colored_ icons [17:48] ochosi: it'd be ok for me [17:48] i just prefer humanity / breathe's style :p but at least g-b is very complete [17:48] [IDEA] Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons? [17:48] IDEA received: Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons? [17:48] SiDi, cause i think it's mainly some icons like folders that are crucial [17:48] so a list of icons we dont like could do it [17:48] [IDEA] Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave? [17:48] IDEA received: Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave? [17:48] important: All images today are working. This is the time to grab them for testing karmic. [17:48] :]]] [17:48] We haven't actually had any images since alpha2 that worked [17:49] ok, enough of artwork... [17:49] [TOPIC] Other items/ free word [17:49] New Topic: Other items/ free word [17:49] ok, i let you begin ochosi [17:49] and, gnumeric is broken again [17:49] [ACTION] Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today! [17:49] ACTION received: Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today! [17:49] [AGREED] Gnumeric is broken again [17:49] AGREED received: Gnumeric is broken again [17:49] [TOPIC] .. Default mail client for Karmic [17:49] ok, so we had a few discussions about tb versus claws [17:49] New Topic: .. Default mail client for Karmic [17:50] i'll try to keep this as short as possible [17:50] np, just tell everything you need to [17:50] i think we can go a bit over 1 hour so absolutely *NO PANIC* :) [17:50] i'm not entirely sure anymore, which is the best default mail client any more. in the beginning i was quite convinced that claws is amazing [17:50] i still think it's amazing, but SiDi convinced me that it really has some usability issues [17:51] thunderbird is great featurewise and many people would like to use it regardless if it's the default or not. [17:51] *evil grin* [17:51] the menus, the filtering, the settings dialog, most things are too cluttered [17:51] yeah, i don't mind anymore if tb is the default [17:51] hehe [17:51] even though i'm not sure what you brought forward is a good argument, knome ;) [17:51] i think we can afford to adopt it now as its not a LTS cycle [17:52]