[16:59] <SiDi> cody-somerville: heya ?
[17:02] <SiDi> knome: we're waiting for you then D:
[17:02] <knome> ok, give me a few minutes :)
[17:03] <SiDi> do you know how to use the meeting bot ? :p
[17:03] <knome> yeo,
[17:03] <knome> #startmeeting
[17:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is knome.
[17:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:03] <knome> okay, let's start
[17:04] <ScottK> Can I just toss something in before I have to run?
[17:04] <knome> sure. :)?
[17:05] <cody-somerville> Hi
[17:05] <knome> hello cody
[17:05] <ScottK> We had a conversation yesterday in #ubuntu-x about the dontzap package.  It's not needed for Ubuntu/Kubuntu since upstream provides a GUI for the change.  We didn't think Xubuntu needed it either, but I thought I mention it.
[17:05] <SiDi> Heya cody-somerville
[17:05] <vinnl> Hi
[17:05] <vinnl> I'll be gone in ten minutes or so, dinner, and return after that :)
[17:05] <ScottK> dontzap is currently not working in karmic anyway, so the intent is to just remove it.
[17:05] <knome> okay
[17:05] <SiDi> ScottK: its the package that allows reenabling Ctrl+Alt+Backspace ?
[17:05] <ScottK> SiDi: Yes.
[17:05] <knome> ok, thanks ScottK :)
[17:05] <charlie-tca> No problem here with that
[17:06] <SiDi> ScottK: err, then we have to modify xorg.conf on our own ? :/
[17:06] <knome> is there somebody who volunteers putting the minutes online? i can send the mootbot log once we're finished.
[17:06] <ScottK> SiDi: No.  Apparently there's a lib that supports this that xfce uses too.
[17:07] <SiDi> ScottK: i think this should be confirmed with xfce devs. i've never seen a gui for that thing
[17:07] <ScottK> It's xklavier that they were mentioning
[17:07] <charlie-tca> SiDi: but you can still enable it with xorg, right
[17:08] <charlie-tca> ?
[17:08] <ScottK> You've now exhausted my knowledge of the topic.
[17:08] <ScottK> I think actually you can't do it in xorg anymore.
[17:08] <ScottK> You have to use xklavier or whatever.
[17:08] <SiDi> it can be done with xorg indeed charlie-tca, but dontzap is more typo-proof :)
[17:08] <SiDi> oh
[17:08] <SiDi> hey ochosi
[17:08] <ochosi> hey everyone
[17:09] <ochosi> sorry for being late
[17:09] <knome> no problem
[17:09] <knome> we were just starting
[17:09] <ochosi> ok, good
[17:09] <ScottK> SiDi: If I understand the discussion in #ubuntu-x yesterday, I think xorg doesn't work anymore in Karmic.
[17:09] <SiDi> ScottK: ok then maybe we should keep dontzap :D
[17:09] <ScottK> SiDi: I'd talk to tseliot about it.
[17:09] <knome> i think we have to investigate this anyway
[17:09] <SiDi> ScottK: thanks
[17:09] <charlie-tca> SiDi: then the question also has to be asked, who will maintain it?
[17:10] <SiDi> does it need to be maintained ? :/
[17:10] <knome> SiDi, are you willing to investigate further?
[17:10] <charlie-tca> Will it be useable as other stuff changes ?
[17:11] <charlie-tca> If we want it kept, any bugs filed will have to be fixed by us, won't they?
[17:11] <SiDi> knome: as long as it doesnt involve coding / packaging it should be ok
[17:11] <knome> okay
[17:11] <cody-somerville> Anyhow
[17:11] <knome> [ACT] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff
[17:11] <knome> oops
[17:12] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff
[17:12] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff
[17:12] <cody-somerville> Lets move forward with the agenda
[17:12] <knome> cody-somerville, i started the meeting as you didn't show up early enough. :)
[17:12] <cody-somerville> I can't stay too long
[17:12] <knome> [TOPIC] Review last meetings action items
[17:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review last meetings action items
[17:12] <vinnl> Dinner, if I'm needed for anything please push it to the back of the agenda :P
[17:12] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Team reports
[17:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Team reports
[17:13] <knome> has everyone updated the team reports? :)
[17:13] <cody-somerville> I forgot. I'll do my part later today
[17:13] <knome> okay
[17:13] <charlie-tca> not really
[17:13] <knome> [ACTION] Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS.
[17:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS.
[17:14] <SiDi> What is a team report ? :|
[17:14] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Documentation and artwork for documentation
[17:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Documentation and artwork for documentation
[17:14] <cody-somerville> SiDi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
[17:15] <knome> j1mc doesn't seem to be available
[17:15] <knome> there's not much progress
[17:15] <knome> so let's move on
[17:15] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Testing wiki pages
[17:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Testing wiki pages
[17:16] <knome> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short
[17:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short
[17:16] <knome> charlie-tca, how are they coming along?
[17:16] <charlie-tca> ouch
[17:16] <charlie-tca> forgot to do that
[17:16] <knome> the action item: #
[17:16] <knome>     *
[17:16] <knome> the action item:       Charlie to work on the Testing wiki pages and split them to be shorter and readable. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short)
[17:16] <knome> no problem.
[17:16] <knome> :)
[17:16] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I will have to work that one
[17:16] <knome> [ACTION] charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff
[17:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff
[17:16] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs
[17:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs
[17:16] <knome> is there anything to this?
[17:17] <charlie-tca> I thought we beat that to death
[17:17] <SiDi> We lack funds for this.
[17:17] <knome> okay.
[17:17] <charlie-tca> We can't ship privately due to customs and international laws
[17:17] <knome> okay :)
[17:17] <charlie-tca> We can ship in our own countries, though
[17:17] <knome> okay
[17:17] <knome> so there's *no* way to ship internationally?
[17:17] <knome> not even single discs?
[17:18] <knome> not even randomly?
[17:18] <knome> :)
[17:18] <SiDi> We can use relays nationally (locos / xubuntu community / whatever)
[17:18] <ochosi> where'd the funds come from for this?
[17:18] <SiDi> but still, printing the CDs is costy
[17:18] <knome> ochosi, personal funding.
[17:18] <SiDi> ochosi: from us i suppose
[17:18] <charlie-tca> If you can deal with the customs and the ability to insure the disc is not drm/viruses/malware/etc
[17:18] <knome> SiDi, a *CD* is a lot for somebody
[17:18] <knome> not everybody can download the iso and burn it
[17:18] <knome> it doesn't need to be "official"
[17:18] <SiDi> i know that
[17:19] <ochosi> but knome, if people are unable to download and burn an iso, will they be able to online order a cd?
[17:19] <charlie-tca> ochosi: canonical sponsors shipit service for Ubuntu and Kubuntu cd's
[17:19] <SiDi> Well, if we burn them ourselves they're gonna have to be error-proof
[17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, i suppose that sending from states is as easy as filling a green customs sticker :)
[17:19] <knome> ochosi, NO, they are not.
[17:19] <knome> ochosi, that's why we are discussing.
[17:19] <charlie-tca> no, it isn't, Knightlust
[17:19] <charlie-tca> knome
[17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, right...
[17:19] <ochosi> knome, ok
[17:19] <SiDi> it's easier to get some CD in each LUG but again people wont go to LUGs
[17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, well at least i have no problems in shipping to EU countries.
[17:19] <charlie-tca> I looked into it, and can't actually provide all the **P*J: they want
[17:19] <SiDi> so we still could ship them in walmart but i doubt they let us do !
[17:20] <knome> it's just a cd... :)
[17:20] <knome> it's not that many people *really* need the cd
[17:20] <charlie-tca> It is the government
[17:20] <knome> about 1-2 per month maybe
[17:20] <ochosi> knome, i see now, i thought this was only about shipping in your own country or the eu
[17:20] <SiDi> But many people will order them knome
[17:20] <knome> SiDi, we're not opening an *ordering* page
[17:21] <knome> if somebody really needs the cd, they come asking for it
[17:21] <charlie-tca> Got a lot of forms to file here to prove it is safe and allowed
[17:21] <SiDi> then how do you want people to know they can order CD s ?
[17:21] <knome> and maybe we can ship on to them
[17:21] <charlie-tca> They can not order a cd for xubuntu, SiDi
[17:21] <knome> SiDi, they have to undestand they have to ask.
[17:21] <knome> SiDi, i've seen a few people almost *crying* for a cd
[17:21] <SiDi> ok so you'd advertise the possibility to negociate an officious CD on irc ?
[17:21] <ochosi> so you want to put some kind of message on xubuntu.org saying: if you're in real trouble donwloading/burning the image, contact us, we'll try to ship a disc?
[17:22] <knome> no, we wouldn't advertise
[17:22] <SiDi> and we send a burnt CD with a hand-draw mouse on it ? :)
[17:22] <knome> no, no advertising
[17:22] <ochosi> hehe
[17:22] <knome> SiDi, yes! :]
[17:22]  * charlie-tca nods
[17:22] <knome> basically, if somebody asks for a cd and really can't d/l it, we should be able to ship one to him/her
[17:22] <knome> as our personal investment in open source
[17:22] <knome> that's the core thing
[17:23] <knome> and that's been discussed, right, charlie-tca ?
[17:23] <charlie-tca> knome: you know I have been trying to. At this point, I can not ship outside of the USA
[17:23] <knome> charlie-tca, well you can ship to usa. we at EU can ship to EU.
[17:23] <SiDi> charlie-tca: anyway i doubt anyone can ship easily outside of europe / usa
[17:23] <charlie-tca> correct, discussion has taken place.
[17:23] <ochosi> well within the eu this wouldn't be a problem
[17:23] <ochosi> what countries are we talking about here anyway? *the world*?
[17:23] <charlie-tca> I can't even get them to Mexico
[17:24] <knome> ochosi, the world, yes.
[17:24] <charlie-tca> That is correct, ochosi
[17:24] <SiDi> problem is that for an individual its extremely expensive
[17:24] <SiDi> we should better in this case find some contacts in every official LoCo
[17:24] <knome> that's fine as well.
[17:24] <charlie-tca> Costs me about 1.25 american dollars anywhere in the world
[17:24] <ochosi> is there a list of loco-teams for xubuntu (or do they even exist at all?)
[17:24] <knome> ochosi, there are.
[17:24] <knome> people just need to be ready to talk to a loco
[17:24] <charlie-tca> ochosi: we are part of the Ubuntu loco teams, normally
[17:25] <SiDi> charlie-tca: costs me about ~20 dollars outside of Europe
[17:25] <ochosi> k
[17:25] <knome> SiDi, you live in FRANCE.
[17:25] <knome> SiDi, you are forgiven
[17:25]  * cody-somerville has to go, bbl
[17:25] <knome> SiDi, and damned :P
[17:25] <knome> cody-somerville, see you
[17:25] <ochosi> i think he knows that :) knome
[17:25] <SiDi> cody-somerville: bye
[17:25] <cody-somerville> \o_
[17:25] <knome> anyway
[17:25] <ochosi> cody-somerville, bye
[17:25] <charlie-tca> brb
[17:25] <knome> if somebody asks a cd, we should either mail them one or point them to loco's, everybody agree?
[17:26] <ochosi> agreed
[17:26] <knome> okay
[17:26] <SiDi> or we can get one mailed by the LoCo
[17:26] <SiDi> cheaper
[17:26] <SiDi> thats what i meant by LoCo contacts
[17:26] <knome> SiDi, exactly - point the asking person to loco..
[17:26] <SiDi> oh i mean we could give the address to the loco guy and ask him/her to send it
[17:26] <knome> [ACTION] For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves.
[17:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves.
[17:27] <knome> NEXT ITEM.
[17:27] <SiDi> we'd have to decide who pays though
[17:27] <knome> [TOPIC] Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues
[17:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues
[17:27] <knome> SiDi, we pay or the loco pays.
[17:27]  * SiDi disconnects
[17:27] <SiDi> Ok so
[17:27] <knome> SiDi, it's not *that* expensive. if you can't then don't ship one and point them to loco.
[17:27] <SiDi> NotifyOsd is still under heavy development as you may know
[17:27] <SiDi> Some issues got fixed, others appear
[17:28] <SiDi> I'm gonna begin with the current issues as it's the main focus of development if we want to be able to ship n-o in good conditions for Karmic
[17:28] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Current issues
[17:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Current issues
[17:28] <SiDi> So among minor problems, there are some lacking icons in n-o
[17:28] <knome> SiDi, is somebody working on them?
[17:29] <SiDi> we're not very concerned as we have Human installed as far as i know
[17:29] <SiDi> knome: no but at worse i suppose it's all about pinging kwwii and asking gently
[17:29] <knome> okay, i can try to help as well
[17:29] <SiDi> The main problems at the moment are a11y issues
[17:29] <SiDi> First, we can't theme n-o bubbles, which causes problems to some users
[17:30] <SiDi> This is gonna be solved by MacSlow according to our last discussion. We will have some gconf keys for it
[17:30] <SiDi> so we can ship different defaults or add a little GUI for it
[17:30] <SiDi> The most worrying thing is that n-o uses custom fonts / DPI settings from ... GNOME
[17:30] <ochosi> rly? didn't know that
[17:30] <SiDi> MacSlow is ok with adding XFCE-specific stuff but he wants n-o to be compilable without this code by default
[17:31] <SiDi> So i'm gonna patch n-o to use xfconf for this, and by the meanwhile i'll see if i can reallistically make n-o use xfconf everywhere gconf is used, so that we could ship a gconf-free n-o package
[17:31] <knome> SiDi, so do you need how to proceed or you need some help with it? :)
[17:31] <knome> (from the xubuntu team)
[17:31] <SiDi> And of course this requires the authorization to upload a notify-osd-xfce package
[17:32] <knome> i think that's not a problem, you'd have to ask cody-somerville, though
[17:32] <SiDi> I need an official developer to sponsor the package if i write the needed changes
[17:32] <SiDi> I think it can fall under "fix bugs" though so it should be ok if im not done before the FeatureFreeze
[17:32] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package.
[17:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package.
[17:32] <SiDi> Apart from that, we still have apps that misbehave with notify-osd
[17:33] <knome> SiDi, cody-somerville can push anything through even after ff ;>>
[17:33] <SiDi> I spotted thunar-volman and xfce4-places-plugin
[17:33] <knome> SiDi, are they obvious to fix?
[17:33] <SiDi> I'll patch them soon if everything goes fine, the patch is easy to write
[17:33] <knome> okay
[17:33] <SiDi> making a proper .patch file for the package and repackaging and uploading is less
[17:33] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly
[17:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly
[17:33] <ochosi> thunar-volman and xfce4-places are both about mounting notifications?
[17:33] <SiDi> I know how to write code but it stops there, so i'll need guidance from real devs again
[17:33] <SiDi> ochosi: yes
[17:33] <SiDi> they use actions in it
[17:34] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi needs help from "real" developers
[17:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SiDi needs help from "real" developers
[17:34] <ochosi> and would that change if say thunar/gio was ready for karmic?
[17:34] <SiDi> it won't
[17:34] <knome> SiDi, do you specifically mean the xubuntu devs or the original app devs here?
[17:34] <SiDi> Apart from that, xfce4-volumed is implemented and working.
[17:34] <SiDi> knome: ours
[17:34] <knome> okay.
[17:34] <SiDi> i just need to be explained how to make a proper patch for a deb package
[17:34] <charlie-tca> Well, we do have cody-somerville and mr_pouit  to help when needed, SiDi
[17:35] <knome> [ACTION] xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report.
[17:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report.
[17:35] <SiDi> My volume daemon works nicely, but it still uses ram : 2.9 MB on my 64bits install, so i think it should be easy to unset it from autostart
[17:35] <knome> [ACTION] mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;]
[17:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;]
[17:36] <SiDi> I also want to patch gnome-settings-daemon in order to make its notifications easier to read. If you spot apps that use long and hard to read notifications, please file a bug and add me to subscribers (and mail me ;p )
[17:36] <knome> SiDi, anything else you'd like to add?
[17:36] <SiDi> Finally, i'll also see with the xfce4-power-manager dev if he can add support for the XF86Power key so that i could patch xfce4-power-manager to use more simple notifications too
[17:36] <knome> [ACTION] If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him
[17:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him
[17:36] <SiDi> (but he's already made an awesome work patching xf-p-m to use notify-osd !)
[17:37]  * charlie-tca thinks that he won't be filing bugs for every notice he can't read.
[17:37] <SiDi> I'm done with this topic, but there are other topics i'd like to speak about
[17:37] <knome> [AGREED] SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :)
[17:37] <MootBot> AGREED received:  SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :)
[17:37] <SiDi> And i think ochosi may have a word to say about mail clients :p
[17:37] <knome> charlie-tca, lol ;)
[17:37] <SiDi> knome: come on Q.Q
[17:37] <knome> ochosi, ?
[17:37] <ochosi> well, SiDi and me had quite a few discussions about whether we prefer claws or tb
[17:37]  * SiDi is actually ABSOLUTELY NOT humble.
[17:38] <ochosi> specifically for karmic
[17:38] <knome> oh right
[17:38] <knome> ochosi, can you wait a bit?
[17:38] <ochosi> np
[17:38] <knome> let's go through the other items quickly
[17:38] <knome> [TOPIC] Karmic Artwork Brainstorm
[17:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Artwork Brainstorm
[17:38] <ochosi> mm, i like that :)
[17:38] <knome> [AGREED] knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork.
[17:38] <MootBot> AGREED received:  knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork.
[17:39] <SiDi> knome: !
[17:39] <knome> [IDEA] Something sky/clouds-related
[17:39] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Something sky/clouds-related
[17:39] <knome> [IDEA] PINK mice
[17:39] <MootBot> IDEA received:  PINK mice
[17:39] <SiDi> Pink ?
[17:39] <ochosi> +1 for pink mice
[17:39] <SiDi> Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?
[17:39] <charlie-tca> PINK???
[17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?
[17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ?
[17:40] <knome> [IDEA] PINK???
[17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received:  PINK???
[17:40] <knome> ;]
[17:40] <ochosi> i think you're the master of blue, knome. xubuntu should stay blue
[17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork?
[17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork?
[17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Xubuntu should stay blue.
[17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Xubuntu should stay blue.
[17:40] <charlie-tca> Kill that pink idea
[17:40] <SiDi> some hues of violet go very very well with blue
[17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Dark GTK theme.
[17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Dark GTK theme.
[17:41] <SiDi> but pink is a bit hardcore
[17:41] <knome> [IDEA] knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha.
[17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received:  knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha.
[17:41] <ochosi> i'm for dark panels with bright icons (especially for stuff like volume-icon etc)
[17:41] <knome> SiDi, charlie-tca: it was a joke.. :)
[17:41] <knome> [IDEA] Dark panels with bright icons.
[17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Dark panels with bright icons.
[17:41] <SiDi> charlie-tca: on a a11y point of view, is dark panels ok ?
[17:41] <knome> [IDEA] Black panels with black and black icons.
[17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Black panels with black and black icons.
[17:42] <ochosi> i'm for dark panels, no matter what gtk-theme is used for the rest tbh
[17:42] <charlie-tca> As long as panels and icons and text are all black, I guess so.
[17:42] <charlie-tca> That would fit in well with notify-osd for me ;-)
[17:43] <ochosi> hehe
[17:43] <knome> charlie-tca, remember when i worked with my dark theme? was that ok?
[17:43] <knome> charlie-tca, a11y-wise?
[17:43] <ochosi> i would also say that a theme joining the menu-bar and xfwm4 color-wise is nice (like the dust-theme)
[17:43] <charlie-tca> I think so. I just change it to something I can read anyway
[17:43] <ochosi> but i know that knome will beg to differ
[17:43] <knome> i don't like it personally.
[17:44] <SiDi> ochosi: like my last theme ? :D
[17:44] <knome> but if we decide to go that way... well i can change it to something i lie. :P
[17:44] <SiDi> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046
[17:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046
[17:44] <SiDi> oh crap, mootbot
[17:44] <knome> [IDEA] Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4?
[17:44] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4?
[17:44] <ochosi> yay SiDi, nice theme btw
[17:44] <knome> okay, anybody has something for the artwork brainstorm?
[17:44] <SiDi> ochosi: it has a few (lots) of problems and work needed
[17:45] <SiDi> knome: you need to register to ubuntu-devel
[17:45] <ochosi> the icon theme will stay gnome-brave, knome ?
[17:45] <knome> SiDi, why?
[17:45] <SiDi> and watch what goes on with usplash !
[17:45] <SiDi> They're gonna use a custom X server apparently
[17:45] <knome> ochosi, if no better theme will show up
[17:45] <knome> SiDi, right
[17:45] <SiDi> maybe asking kwwii and mat_t to keep you in touch about any official ubuntu artwork infrastructure changes may help too
[17:45] <charlie-tca> SiDi: we still it to be able to use a Xubuntu usplash, please.
[17:45] <knome> [ACTION] knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash
[17:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash
[17:45] <ochosi> knome, i'm fine with gnome-brave, only one general question: i assume you'll try to build on top of the most recent version of the theme..?
[17:45] <SiDi> charlie-tca: usplash would make us lose some boot time probably
[17:46] <charlie-tca> We are using theirs now, and I want ours back
[17:46] <SiDi> it's gonna be dropped, and plymouth too, in profit of faster / lighter solutions
[17:46] <knome> ochosi, can you be more specific, please?:)
[17:46] <knome> [IDEA] Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also?
[17:46] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also?
[17:46]  * SiDi very dislikes some icons in gnome-brave
[17:46] <ochosi> knome, well, victor has been working on the theme quite a bit on gnome-brave since you took it for jaunty
[17:46] <knome> [AGREED] Some icons are not as good as they could be
[17:46] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Some icons are not as good as they could be
[17:47] <SiDi> i'm more for a recolored version of Human/Humanity/Breathe, even if it takes _more_ time to setup
[17:47] <knome> ochosi, oh right. yes, if the newest version is in the repos, we'll use it.
[17:47] <ochosi> knome, i see
[17:47] <knome> we're not going anywhere here and we're almost used all of our time
[17:47] <charlie-tca> We get good comments every release for not using Human, why would we go to it?
[17:47] <knome> so if there is nothing *reallY* important, let's go on
[17:47] <SiDi> if we keep gnome-brave, is it possible to get more Humanish media icons ?
[17:47] <ochosi> SiDi, so making a list of icons we don't like in gnome-brave wouldn't be enough?
[17:47] <ochosi> k
[17:47] <SiDi> especially _not colored_ icons
[17:48] <SiDi> ochosi: it'd be ok for me
[17:48] <SiDi> i just prefer humanity / breathe's style :p but at least g-b is very complete
[17:48] <knome> [IDEA] Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons?
[17:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons?
[17:48] <ochosi> SiDi, cause i think it's mainly some icons like folders that are crucial
[17:48] <SiDi> so a list of icons we dont like could do it
[17:48] <knome> [IDEA] Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave?
[17:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave?
[17:48] <charlie-tca> important:  All images today are working. This is the time to grab them for testing karmic.
[17:48] <knome> :]]]
[17:48] <charlie-tca> We haven't actually had any images since alpha2 that worked
[17:49] <knome> ok, enough of artwork...
[17:49] <knome> [TOPIC] Other items/ free word
[17:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other items/ free word
[17:49] <SiDi> ok, i let you begin ochosi
[17:49] <charlie-tca> and, gnumeric is broken again
[17:49] <knome> [ACTION] Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today!
[17:49] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today!
[17:49] <knome> [AGREED] Gnumeric is broken again
[17:49] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Gnumeric is broken again
[17:49] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Default mail client for Karmic
[17:49] <ochosi> ok, so we had a few discussions about tb versus claws
[17:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Default mail client for Karmic
[17:50] <ochosi> i'll try to keep this as short as possible
[17:50] <knome> np, just tell everything you need to
[17:50] <knome> i think we can go a bit over 1 hour so absolutely *NO PANIC* :)
[17:50] <ochosi> i'm not entirely sure anymore, which is the best default mail client any more. in the beginning i was quite convinced that claws is amazing
[17:50] <ochosi> i still think it's amazing, but SiDi convinced me that it really has some usability issues
[17:51] <knome> thunderbird is great featurewise and many people would like to use it regardless if it's the default or not.
[17:51] <SiDi> *evil grin*
[17:51] <ochosi> the menus, the filtering, the settings dialog, most things are too cluttered
[17:51] <ochosi> yeah, i don't mind anymore if tb is the default
[17:51] <knome> hehe
[17:51] <ochosi> even though i'm not sure what you brought forward is a good argument, knome ;)
[17:51] <SiDi> i think we can afford to adopt it now as its not a LTS cycle
[17:52] <knome> [AGREED] TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise.
[17:52] <MootBot> AGREED received:  TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise.
[17:52] <knome> ;)
[17:52] <SiDi> knome: TB doesnt beat claws featurewise as far as i understood
[17:52] <ochosi> well, it's a question of usability versus lightweight
[17:52] <ochosi> yes, i disagree with that too. it's not a feature-question
[17:52] <knome> [AGREED] It's a question of usability VS. lightweight
[17:52] <MootBot> AGREED received:  It's a question of usability VS. lightweight
[17:52] <ochosi> you can do really *a lot* with claws
[17:52] <SiDi> If we go for claws though, we should expect to be able to greatly improve its flaws for the next release, and be ready to receive feedback (especially negative critique)
[17:53] <SiDi> in order to bring this feedback to the claws devs so they can improve it
[17:53] <knome> many people are not that familiar with claws.
[17:53] <ochosi> yes, i agree
[17:53] <knome> that's what makes TB look like as easier to use
[17:53] <ochosi> yeah, many people are not that familiar with thunar either ;)
[17:53] <SiDi> Also, do we believe that the users of xubuntu have the same profile than the users claws mail targets ?
[17:53] <ochosi> yes, that's a good question, SiDi
[17:53] <SiDi> ochosi: thunar is a piece of cake to use :)
[17:54] <ochosi> i never said anything else
[17:54] <ochosi> and i think that's what i think you devs have to decide
[17:54]  * ochosi goes to the doorbell. apologizes
[17:54] <SiDi> I'd like to add something not so related but it should be in the meeting logs
[17:55] <knome> SiDi, wait a sec.
[17:55] <SiDi> Someone _MUST_ get in touch with alacarte's developer to see if he's worked on an xfce compatible menu editor
[17:55] <knome> [AGREED] We need to decide on the default mail client
[17:55] <MootBot> AGREED received:  We need to decide on the default mail client
[17:55]  * SiDi waited a sec :P
[17:55] <SiDi> (technically i mean ~)
[17:55] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Menu editor for Xfce?!
[17:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Menu editor for Xfce?!
[17:55] <ochosi> ok, back
[17:55] <mr_pouit> for 4.8
[17:55] <SiDi> mr_pouit: so it will not be ready at all for Karmic ?
[17:56] <mr_pouit> no
[17:56] <SiDi> ok, i think its one of the biggest user expectations
[17:56] <SiDi> mr_pouit: its gonna be worked on by Jannis right ?
[17:56] <knome> [AGREED] No menu editor for 4.8 is bad.
[17:56] <mr_pouit> yes
[17:56] <MootBot> AGREED received:  No menu editor for 4.8 is bad.
[17:56] <SiDi> knome: for 9.10 ;p
[17:56] <ochosi> yes i agree, many people complain about it. even though i don't think so many people really edit their menu...
[17:56] <knome> right.. sorry
[17:57] <knome> [AGREED] EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad.
[17:57] <MootBot> AGREED received:  EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad.
[17:57] <SiDi> ochosi: usually you just remove half of it once, but doing it manually sucks for Xubuntu users
[17:57] <ochosi> SiDi, k
[17:57] <SiDi> ok so i suppose someone should take upon himself to grab alacarte's source and to make a fork out of it for XFCE ?
[17:57] <knome> [IDEA] Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app?
[17:57] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app?
[17:57] <SiDi> I think it was Jannis's plan anyway
[17:57] <knome> [IDEA] Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce
[17:57] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce
[17:57]  * SiDi is not gonna do it :p
[17:58] <mr_pouit> no
[17:58] <knome> [IDEA] SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not.
[17:58] <MootBot> IDEA received:  SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not.
[17:58] <mr_pouit> He's already working with Jannis
[17:58] <mr_pouit> there is no need to fork or whatever
[17:58] <SiDi> mr_pouit: but do you have recent news about it ?
[17:58] <knome> [ACTION] Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork.
[17:58] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork.
[17:58] <knome> ONLY A FEW MINUTES LEFT PEOPLE!!!
[17:59] <SiDi> afaik the alacarte dev will make a fork of it that works with XFCE
[17:59] <mr_pouit> SiDi: jannis has been working on thunar-gio recently
[17:59] <ochosi> what about the other default apps for karmic?
[17:59] <ochosi> i mean the ones where specs exist
[17:59] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Other default appsfor Karmic
[17:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. Other default appsfor Karmic
[17:59] <SiDi> mr_pouit: yeh, i follow xfce-dev, and i know hes gonna be busy for a while with thunar, so thats why i was wondering if it would be ok to replace him for the work on the menu editor
[17:59] <knome> like which?
[17:59] <mr_pouit> SiDi: but 'everything' should be in a git experimental branch somewehere
[18:00] <knome> ochosi, ?
[18:00] <SiDi> ok so i suppose its time to talk about the music player
[18:00] <ochosi> ok, so there's music app (SiDi)
[18:00] <knome> we are technically out of time so only quick comments please
[18:00] <SiDi> knome: is there any urgency ?
[18:00] <knome> [TOPIC] .... Media player?
[18:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  .... Media player?
[18:00] <knome> SiDi, i need to go soonish and i have to finish the meeting
[18:00] <ochosi> SiDi, did you have time to look into gmusicbrowser?
[18:00] <SiDi> Ok, so, i've had a look at the main media players for GTK
[18:01] <SiDi> ochosi: i launched it once or twice but i didnt look in details
[18:01] <SiDi> i didnt finish the spec actually
[18:01] <SiDi> i also had a look at parole
[18:01] <SiDi> and quod libet
[18:01] <knome> what about something mpd-powered? :}
[18:01] <SiDi> we're currently shipping Listen, so users dont expect to have something heavier with lesser features, sounds obvious
[18:01] <SiDi> knome: mpd is not adaptated at all for use with several users
[18:01] <ochosi> do you think that would be better in usability than claws, knome? :)
[18:01] <SiDi> and its a pain to configure
[18:02] <SiDi> i couldnt even get it to run with a GUI knome
[18:02] <knome> ochosi, there's no comparison between claws and mpd.. ;]
[18:02] <SiDi> and i didnt invest much more time that an average end user would
[18:02] <knome> SiDi, you suck.
[18:02] <SiDi> so thats quite bad
[18:02] <SiDi> knome: write me a tutorial then
[18:02] <knome> we would of course set that up.
[18:02] <knome> SiDi, right. i will when i have that 5mins time :P
[18:02] <SiDi> imo mpd is not adapted at all for per-user use
[18:03] <SiDi> so i looked in details at rb / exaile / banshee / listen as they were the most feature-rich
[18:03] <SiDi> i know there are lighter GUI ones, ie. parole and gmusicbrowser, but i think it's better to offer a complete media suite as default
[18:03] <knome> true.
[18:03] <SiDi> as users who need something really lighter will go for mpd anyway
[18:03] <charlie-tca> yes it is, but not one tied to pulseaudio
[18:03] <knome> \o/
[18:04] <SiDi> so i looked a tthe most obvious things. They all play music (yes they do), they work more or less the same in an xfce desktop
[18:04] <SiDi> listen became much much heavier than it used to be
[18:04] <SiDi> and it seems to be the one with the worse GUI and lesser features, so i think it can be safely dropped
[18:05] <SiDi> for dependencies, exaile may have a few more ones than listen (it puts more gstreamer plugins - needed anyway - into its recommanded deps)
[18:05] <SiDi> RB requires libgnome, brasero and other fancy stuff
[18:05] <SiDi> Banshee requires libgnome too, and ~100 MB of mono libs
[18:05] <knome> SiDi, what's your final outcome?
[18:05] <SiDi> knome: im far from final outcome :p
[18:05] <knome> sorry if i'm rushing you... :P
[18:05] <SiDi> rb is the lightest for RAM usage
[18:05] <knome> SiDi, what's your current feeling?
[18:05] <SiDi> but it has memory leaks (they all have ~ )
[18:05] <charlie-tca> Got to come up with one, though, if we drop listen
[18:05] <SiDi> the one with least memory leaks is exaile
[18:06] <SiDi> I'm for Exaile, personally
[18:06] <SiDi> but i cant take a decision on my own, it wouldnt be honnest ~ im too tied to exaile
[18:06] <knome> [IDEA] ATM SiDi is for Exaile
[18:06] <MootBot> IDEA received:  ATM SiDi is for Exaile
[18:06] <SiDi> thats why im exposing this to you now
[18:06] <knome> i don't disagree with that.
[18:06] <ochosi> i'm for exaile too
[18:06] <SiDi> Exaile is light, has decent dependencies, not many memory leaks
[18:06] <knome> it might be a good choice really.
[18:06] <ochosi> at least with the choice given
[18:06] <knome> [AGREED] Exaile might be just what we want.
[18:06] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Exaile might be just what we want.
[18:06] <SiDi> It has suffered from lack of development lately, but the 3 main devs are now extremely actively workingon it
[18:06] <charlie-tca> Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile, then, and try to get cody-somerville to make the changes
[18:06] <SiDi> and Exaile 0.3 should be ready for Feature Freeze
[18:07] <SiDi> And since i thought it would be the best choice, i began working a little on exaile :)
[18:07] <knome> [ACTION] Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile.
[18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile.
[18:07] <charlie-tca> We need to have cody-somerville seed exaile for testing
[18:07] <SiDi> ie. notification plugin (you can find vids of it in my youtube account)
[18:07] <knome> [ACTION] cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing
[18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing
[18:07] <charlie-tca> We can leave Listen there for now, and give exaile a chance to be tested
[18:07] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi has started working with Exaile already
[18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SiDi has started working with Exaile already
[18:07] <SiDi> and i'm working on some usability / GUI stuff, and also a plugin for better media keys support
[18:08] <SiDi> (so far NO player behaves correctly for the media keys outside of gnome)
[18:08] <knome> [AGREED] We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later.
[18:08] <MootBot> AGREED received:  We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later.
[18:08] <SiDi> (Exaile had a plugin but i have to port it to the latest version for it to work fine)
[18:08] <SiDi> Thats all
[18:08] <knome> okay.
[18:08] <knome> any other default apps we should discuss?
[18:08] <SiDi> Now i'd like to say a word about the "Slim session down" spec
[18:08] <knome> o.O
[18:08] <charlie-tca> Anything better than firefox?
[18:08] <SiDi> charlie-tca: not yet :)
[18:08] <knome> [TOPIC] .. "Slim session down" -spec
[18:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  .. "Slim session down" -spec
[18:09] <charlie-tca> In Karmic, it uses 3-10 percent of the cpu continuously
[18:09] <knome> charlie-tca, epiphany does not work, midori is too alpha.
[18:09] <SiDi> midori is lighter than it used to be
[18:09] <SiDi> it has support for flash and various basic things
[18:09] <knome> SiDi, but it is still too alpha.
[18:09] <charlie-tca> epiphany don't work?
[18:09] <SiDi> but i think its far from FF's features (of course since FF is heavily funded)
[18:09] <knome> epiphany/midori crash all the time
[18:09] <SiDi> yeh they're very unstable
[18:09] <knome> for me at least
[18:09] <charlie-tca> midori I have fought with. I need to do a bug report for it for xfce
[18:09] <knome> that's unacceptable.
[18:09] <SiDi> so is chromium (all webkit based ~ muaha)
[18:10] <knome> SiDi, see the topic :P
[18:10] <knome> SiDi, slim!
[18:10] <SiDi> knome: i know you switched too fast ~ :P
[18:10] <knome> SiDi, session! :P
[18:10] <SiDi> Ok so i had an idea
[18:10] <knome> [IDEA] ??
[18:10] <MootBot> IDEA received:  ??
[18:10] <SiDi> According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage
[18:10] <charlie-tca> SiDi: that one could be a good idea?
[18:10] <SiDi> thats quite logical : we ship update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM
[18:10] <knome> [AGREED] According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage
[18:10] <MootBot> AGREED received:  According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage
[18:11] <SiDi> now the bad news is that its not going to be better in karmic
[18:11] <knome> [AGREED] We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM
[18:11] <MootBot> AGREED received:  We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM
[18:11] <SiDi> of course, apps get more features so more RAM usage, and if we add notify-osd / xfce4-volumed we may lose a few megs too
[18:11] <SiDi> so my idea is the following !
[18:11] <knome> [AGREED] It's not going to be better in Karmic.
[18:11] <MootBot> AGREED received:  It's not going to be better in Karmic.
[18:11] <knome> ;)
[18:11] <SiDi> We should be able to check the user's RAM during the install
[18:11] <knome> [IDEA] ??!!
[18:11] <MootBot> IDEA received:  ??!!
[18:11] <charlie-tca> I disagree with that agreed thing
[18:12] <knome> [AGREED] charlie-tca disagrees...
[18:12] <MootBot> AGREED received:  charlie-tca disagrees...
[18:12] <SiDi> and if user has less than XXX RAM, we should disable some daemons from autostart
[18:12] <ochosi> sounds experimental
[18:12] <SiDi> till we estimate that the average ram usage would be under YYY
[18:12] <SiDi> ochosi: indeed. i dont know if its feasible
[18:12] <knome> [IDEA] Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically
[18:12] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically
[18:12] <charlie-tca> SiDi: if we can disable them for some users, why do we have them?
[18:12] <SiDi> the idea is that we disable all the non-vital userspace daemons for users with not enough RAM
[18:12] <SiDi> charlie-tca: because they're a good plus for usability
[18:12] <SiDi> but i mean, do you _really_ need them ? update-notifier is enhancement
[18:13] <SiDi> xfce4-volumed too
[18:13] <SiDi> you can useyour computer without them, even if its better when they run
[18:13] <knome> [IDEA] Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM?
[18:13] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM?
[18:13] <charlie-tca> If not everybody gets them, how do they decide Xubuntu is really worth using?
[18:13] <SiDi> but if we want users with 200 MB of ram to can use Xubuntu, we can save 30/40 MB ram this way
[18:13] <charlie-tca> Seems like everybody should have the same things running.
[18:13] <SiDi> charlie-tca: it would be only on critical RAM
[18:13] <knome> [IDEA] Users are able to disable services themselves...
[18:13] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Users are able to disable services themselves...
[18:13] <ochosi> i think this is difficult, you won't have consistent experiences of xubuntu anymore
[18:14] <charlie-tca> We can use Jaunty in 128MB, we should instead pare down karmic to use that
[18:14] <SiDi> What if we ship a checkbox "Disable userspace services by default" in the Advanced tab of the installer ?
[18:14] <knome> [AGREED] We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons
[18:14] <MootBot> AGREED received:  We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons
[18:14] <knome> [IDEA] Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default?
[18:14] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default?
[18:14] <SiDi> charlie-tca: im not sure you can get _Xubuntu_ running under 128 forever
[18:15] <knome> we don't need to get it running *under* 128
[18:15] <SiDi> Xfce is not so light, GDM takes a good 30 MB, and we add some ubuntu stuff that isnt light at all (including my own daemon)
[18:15] <knome> is that it?
[18:15] <charlie-tca> I have three systems using Xubuntu, they all need to be the same. They should never be different if they are using the same thing.
[18:16] <charlie-tca> SiDi: I don't think we can, but we need to maintain consistent interfaces and applications for all users
[18:16] <knome> [IDEA] ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu
[18:16] <MootBot> IDEA received:  ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu
[18:16] <SiDi> Well, thats all i had to say :)
[18:16] <ochosi> i think we should decide what "light" means. just ram usage?
[18:16] <charlie-tca> If Xubuntu can't be used, we should say so
[18:16] <knome> okay, anything else?
[18:16] <knome> phew
[18:16] <SiDi> knome: it requires a lot of work prior to working
[18:16] <SiDi> ochosi: yeh, ram usage here indeed
[18:16] <knome> he's willing to do it
[18:16] <ScottK> Note: neither Ubuntu nor Kubuntu disable compositing by default because some video hardware doesn't support it.
[18:17] <SiDi> ScottK: and some users cant boot :p
[18:17] <knome> SiDi, that might not be in for karmic, but the work can be started now.
[18:17] <knome> anything else about anything?
[18:17] <ScottK> SiDi: Sure, but the point is it's not at all unusual to treat different hardware configurations somewhat differently.
[18:17] <knome> i'm ending the meeting soon...
[18:17] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[18:18] <knome> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[18:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[18:18] <SiDi> Well i'm done then
[18:18] <charlie-tca> defines our strategy. Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where xubuntu is supposed to be going?
[18:18] <knome> PHEW! THANKS!
[18:18] <knome> charlie-tca, that is wonderfully said
[18:18] <SiDi> charlie-tca: i have the feeling that we want to be lightweight and feature ful at the same time :)
[18:19] <knome> [IDEA] Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going?
[18:19] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going?
[18:19] <charlie-tca> and we can be
[18:19] <knome> #endmeeting
[18:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:19.
[18:19] <SiDi> one day we will have to meet and define what we want to do, but now isnt the best time for it
[18:19] <knome> yep.
[18:19] <SiDi> okwell, thanks everyone for coming :p
[18:19] <charlie-tca> SiDi: the strategy docs do define that
[18:19] <knome> impromptu meetings are allowed as well about the smaller items
[18:19] <knome> thanks
[18:19] <knome> somebody want to set up the minutes?
[18:19] <charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, knome
[18:19] <knome> charlie-tca, no problem
[18:19] <knome> even if we took 20mins extra ;)
[18:20] <ochosi> yay, i think that's a good sign :)
[18:20] <SiDi> thats ok knome :p
[18:20] <ochosi> at least in some respect
[18:20] <knome> SiDi, i will sacrifice one kitten for every extra minute
[18:20] <SiDi> We didnt get shout at anyway
[18:20]  * SiDi kills knome instantly with a fireball
[18:21] <knome> :P
[18:21] <knome> ok, i'll put the minutes online then.
[18:21] <SiDi> okies :p
[18:21] <knome> it will take some time but i'll do it
[18:21] <knome> thanks, i'll go have some time with my *wife*
[18:21] <knome> ...
[18:21] <knome> SiDi, *I* got shouted at... :P
[18:21] <knome> ->
[18:22] <charlie-tca> \o/