[00:00] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: hi
[00:01] <TheMuso> Hey rickspencer3.
[00:01] <TheMuso> And good morning robert_ancell.
[00:01] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: just in time
[00:01] <rickspencer3> you are one minute late
[00:01] <robert_ancell> networking problems...
[00:01]  * rickspencer3 slaps ruler against palm
[00:01] <TheMuso> lol
[00:01]  * robert_ancell begins the revolution
[00:01] <rickspencer3> lol
[00:02] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: long time no see
[00:02] <rickspencer3> hope all is well
[00:02] <TheMuso> All is very well thanks. Hope you both had a good trip.
[00:02] <rickspencer3> I did
[00:02] <TheMuso> Great.
[00:02] <rickspencer3> and it was cool seeing robert_ancell and everyone
[00:03] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: before we start "the meeting" ...
[00:03] <robert_ancell> it was good to see all the big GNOME people
[00:03] <rickspencer3> are you interested in attending Linux Plumbers?
[00:04] <rickspencer3> Lennart will be there
[00:04] <rickspencer3> hmm
[00:04] <rickspencer3> http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/
[00:04] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: Robbie suggested I attend previously, but I must admit I am not really that interested, since I don't deal with that level of detail in terms of implementatino, I just package.
[00:04] <rickspencer3> I guess it's kind of soon, actually
[00:05] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: prolly too late to get you there anyway
[00:05] <TheMuso> I understand concepts, but not at any great detail in terms of pulseaudio/alsa's code base.
[00:05] <rickspencer3> I could pop down for a day if there was something useful I could do
[00:05] <TheMuso> However if people believe that me going is a good idea, then I will.
[00:05] <rickspencer3> it's a long trup
[00:06] <rickspencer3> trip even
[00:06] <TheMuso> lol
[00:06] <rickspencer3> so we should only arrange it if you think it's going to really be worth it
[00:06]  * TheMuso thought rickspencer3 was going all New Zealand on us.
[00:06] <TheMuso> I don't, but if others do, then I'll go.
[00:06] <rickspencer3> so, think about it, and let me know in a couple of days if you change your mind
[00:06] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: I wanted to ask you about your gdm config spec
[00:06] <robert_ancell> yes
[00:07] <rickspencer3> the blueprint is a little *ahem* think right now
[00:07] <rickspencer3> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-gdmconfig
[00:07] <robert_ancell> thin?
[00:07] <rickspencer3> understanding that you just got from desktop summit
[00:07] <rickspencer3> thin even
[00:07]  * rickspencer3 too much typing today
[00:07] <rickspencer3> I was wondering when you thought you might get to a spec and have work items?
[00:08] <robert_ancell> OK, can add those
[00:08] <robert_ancell> where do I add a spec?
[00:09] <rickspencer3> you just create a wiki page, then on the blueprint you click the link to "set the url for the specification" or whatever
[00:09] <rickspencer3> there is a spec template
[00:09] <rickspencer3> since this is a pretty well defined feature, it would probably be good for you to use the template
[00:10] <rickspencer3> I'd like to get the work items added to the burndown chart as soon as is reasonable
[00:10] <rickspencer3> enough of my whip cracking ...
[00:10] <rickspencer3> do either of you guys have any agenda items?
[00:10] <robert_ancell> no
[00:10] <TheMuso> No
[00:10] <rickspencer3> okay
[00:11] <rickspencer3> I wrote up the Western Edition meeting notes:
[00:11] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-14#preview
[00:11] <rickspencer3> instead of just reviewing them, shall I though on highlights that impact you, and let you read the notes at your leisure?
[00:11] <TheMuso> thats a good idea
[00:12] <robert_ancell> +1
[00:12] <rickspencer3> so first is an action item:
[00:12] <rickspencer3> # ACTION: everyone try both bluetooth front ends, report experience to asac next team meeting
[00:12] <rickspencer3> we need to help asac with choosing the bluetooth front end
[00:12] <robert_ancell> no bluetooth hw for me
[00:13] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: not even a phone?
[00:13] <robert_ancell> nope :)
[00:13]  * TheMuso has 2 notebooks, plus a dongle he can plug into his desktop for bluetooth testing.
[00:13] <rickspencer3> okay
[00:13] <rickspencer3> so next week, give asac feedback
[00:13]  * TheMuso has a phone and a headset
[00:13] <robert_ancell> TheMuso, perhaps I'll have to drop over for a day
[00:13] <rickspencer3> I thought there was another action item to set up the mozilla security ppa as well
[00:13] <TheMuso> Thats certainly feesable.
[00:13] <rickspencer3> but I seem to have "lost" it
[00:14] <rickspencer3> that sounds fun, actually
[00:14] <rickspencer3> do you guys ever get together?
[00:14] <TheMuso> No, but I have been thinking of organising something actually
[00:14]  * rickspencer3 invites himself to TheMuso house in Australia
[00:14] <TheMuso> heh
[00:14] <robert_ancell> :)
[00:14] <TheMuso> I was thinking of inviting all sydney guys up for a day of work/hacking.
[00:14] <TheMuso> regardless of team etc
[00:14] <rickspencer3> The Portland Posse does that like every month
[00:15] <robert_ancell> /drinking /w
[00:15] <robert_ancell> ^W
[00:15] <rickspencer3> okay, moving on :)
[00:15] <rickspencer3> the other item I wanted to mention was Empathy for alpha 3
[00:15] <rickspencer3> It's being built with webkit ...
[00:15] <TheMuso> ooo no good
[00:15] <TheMuso> not for a11y anyway
[00:16] <rickspencer3> now I am woefully uneducated about this, but I fear that perhaps this makes it inaccessible
[00:16] <TheMuso> i am already getting asked questions about empathy for accessibility stuff
[00:16] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: could we ask you to test that out for us?
[00:16] <TheMuso> Sure thintg.
[00:16] <TheMuso> thing
[00:16] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:17] <rickspencer3> other than that, there was just a bunch of status updates and what not
[00:17] <TheMuso> Yep. Whats the file syncing stuff that is waiting for an MIR?
[00:17] <rickspencer3> I put the irc log at the bottom of the wiki to make it easier for you guys to read through it
[00:17] <TheMuso> is that ubuntuone?
[00:17] <rickspencer3> yes
[00:17] <TheMuso> ah ok.
[00:17] <TheMuso> Nice to see that another db for evolution is being looked into.
[00:18] <rickspencer3> is there anything that you guys know of that is in a PPA, but is meant to be in universe or main for Karmic?
[00:18] <robert_ancell> no
[00:18] <rickspencer3> ACTION: TheMuso to test accessibility of empathy built with webkit
[00:19] <TheMuso> Only a newer version of pulse, and that awaits an rtkit MIR competion which I need to talk to upstrea about some stuff for
[00:19] <TheMuso> gah typing
[00:19] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: you may want to check with kenvandine to ensure that you test the correct version
[00:19] <rickspencer3> (of empathy I mean)
[00:19] <TheMuso> ah ok.
[00:20] <rickspencer3> ok guys, it was a short meeting this morning
[00:20] <rickspencer3> in general, how are you guys finding Karmic?
[00:20] <robert_ancell> Good since the last kernel update. Video seems better quality.  Still issues with changing to compiz though
[00:20] <TheMuso> Better than expected, and plenty to do. :)
[00:21] <rickspencer3> lol
[00:21]  * TheMuso has never run a dev release this early in a cycle
[00:21] <TheMuso> due to a11y concerns, but all seems ok.
[00:21] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: there is still a lot of scepticism about pulse audio
[00:21] <rickspencer3> I mean "out in the world among the users"
[00:21] <rickspencer3> so you have your work cut out for you on that front, indeed
[00:21] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: To be honest, I am starting to feel that myself. I feel it changes too much from release to release, making things difficult to track.
[00:22]  * rickspencer3 nods
[00:22] <rickspencer3> is there anything we should be doing to help you?
[00:22] <TheMuso> I need more help from those who understand whats going on and how things work basically.
[00:22] <TheMuso> I do feel a little bogged down with audio stuff atm.
[00:22] <rickspencer3> when you say "those who understand" are you thinking of anyone specifically?
[00:23] <TheMuso> People like Daniel Chen who have knowledge of the audio architecture, how thigns fit together, and can help work out where bugs may lie, re triaging, and stuff like pulse muting volume bugs etc
[00:24] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[00:24] <TheMuso> see #distro for a sec, Canonical only stuff.
[00:25] <TheMuso> Other than that, things are ok. I am on top of a11y stuff, which is good.
[00:26] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: good
[00:26] <rickspencer3> does the new gdm greeter work perfectly from an accessibility point of view?
[00:26] <TheMuso> Have to look into how accessible login is enabled with it. I actually hope to do that today.
[00:27] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:27] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: TheMuso: thanks for your time this morning
[00:27] <rickspencer3> I appreciate you guys taking the time to connect with me and the rest of the team in your mornings
[00:27]  * rickspencer3 smells coffee?
[00:27] <robert_ancell> no prob
[00:27] <TheMuso> No problem.
[00:28] <rickspencer3> ok then, see you guys tomorrow
[00:28] <TheMuso> Till tomorrow.
[00:30] <bryce> cya rickspencer3
[00:31] <rickspencer3> heya bryce
[00:31] <rickspencer3> going to plumbers?
[00:34] <bryce> rickspencer3, yeah planning to
[00:35] <rickspencer3> I was thinking about popping down for a day
[00:35] <bryce> sounds like I missed a fun trip in the canaries, although sounds like there wasn't much X.org specific anyway
[00:35] <rickspencer3> bryce: there was less than zero xorg stuff
[00:35] <rickspencer3> though it was fun, and would have been great to have you there
[00:36] <rickspencer3> bryce: x seems to be working well for me
[00:36] <bryce> fortunately it's been a productive week getting our intel bug reports cleaned up
[00:36] <bryce> (and lots and lots of baby prep stuff)
[00:37] <rickspencer3> :)
[00:37] <rickspencer3> baby prep is fun ... like buying a little keyboard so she can triage x bugs while nursing?
[00:38] <bryce> heh
[00:38] <rickspencer3> so sometimes my screen turns black, for maybe one or two seconds, and then comes back
[00:38] <rickspencer3> is that Jesse's feature of x reconstituting itself rather than freezing?
[00:38] <rickspencer3> happens once per day or less
[00:39] <bryce> rickspencer3, yeah I realized I'm like in a real sweet-spot for -intel; all the versions and configuration settings in Ubuntu and upstream are consistent and we've got new enough snapshots that I can get people to test stuff easily and push it up with little retesting hassle.  So I figured I should take advantage of this rare moment and push as many bugs up as I can.
[00:39] <rickspencer3> I saw that list
[00:39] <rickspencer3> it was impressive indeed
[00:39] <rickspencer3> I hope Yingying didn't blow a gasket ;)
[00:39] <bryce> yeah I get the periodic screen blanking myself on -ati.  Haven't sorted it out, but it sure is irritating
[00:40] <bryce> hehe, yeah haven't heard a peep from her
[00:40] <bryce> but the bugs themselves are getting attention so that's nice
[00:40]  * TheMuso gets the occasional blanking her eon nvidia as well.
[00:40] <rickspencer3> screen blanking is annoying, but far better than crashing
[00:40] <TheMuso> here
[00:40] <rickspencer3> lol
[00:40] <TheMuso> with proprietary nvidia drivers
[00:41] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: in terms of bug 372132
[00:41] <bryce> interesting; I've assumed it to be an -ati bug, but maybe it's something more fundamental
[00:41] <rickspencer3> does it seem that people might be over-analyzing a bit?
[00:41] <rickspencer3> bryce: is there something I could do to get you debug data when it happens (which is pretty rare)
[00:41] <bryce> my current guess with the blanking bug is that it is something in the power management system
[00:41] <rickspencer3> hmm
[00:42] <rickspencer3> so my guess that it was Jesse's feature doesn't ring true, huh?
[00:42] <TheMuso> makes sense
[00:42] <bryce> rickspencer3, yeah I think what needs done is to look at the power management state... maybe have it log to a file and see if something changes
[00:42] <bryce> I'm not familiar enough with pmutils and such to know what specifically to do
[00:42] <rickspencer3> it happens so rarely, but I'll try
[00:42] <rickspencer3> I'll talk to robbiew, see what they suggest
[00:43] <bryce> I've noticed sort of a pattern to it, like it happens N minutes after powering on my monitors (where N is something like 30 or 60)
[00:43] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[00:43] <rickspencer3> powering on your monitor, but not your computer?
[00:43] <bryce> right
[00:43] <rickspencer3> interesting
[00:43] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, I guess people are a bit worried that that menu will become full of stuff
[00:44] <TheMuso> It happens randomly for me, I can go several days without it occurring, and then it happens all of a sudden, then nothing for a while again.
[00:44] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: but can't we just drop three templates in the ~/Template directory for the user?
[00:45] <rickspencer3> we have "examples"
[00:45] <robert_ancell> As the default profile. Makes sense to me...
[00:45] <rickspencer3> would that be hard to do?
[00:46]  * rickspencer3 is simple minded, but the fix seems simple
[00:46] <bryce> rickspencer3, anyway with -intel it feels like we've turned a sharp corner.  There's still bugs, but they seem less severe and upstream seems to be smashing them much more definitively than in the past.
[00:46] <rickspencer3> bryce: that is awesome
[00:46] <rickspencer3> it does seem like it's all come together in Karmic
[00:46] <rickspencer3> and in no small part thanks to your tireless efforts
[00:47] <rickspencer3> as pitti mentioned this morning, you can play tux racer for hours now
[00:47] <rickspencer3> :)
[00:48] <bryce> well, I certainly feel motivated to hammer on it since I feel so bad at all the trouble it was in jaunty
[00:48] <rickspencer3> well ... it was trouble, indeed
[00:48] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, I think I agree the whole concept of a "new" menu is not necessarily good but it needs some user testing to back up that idea
[00:48] <bryce> I just wish more of the fixes could be backported
[00:49] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: it just seems like the users need something simple, and the concerns about the menu growing and stuff seem academic to me
[00:49] <rickspencer3> bryce: well ... we're moving on to a new release
[00:49] <TheMuso> bryce: I feel the same way re audio. With karmic, a lot is changing and cannot be backported due to core infrastructure requirements.
[00:49] <rickspencer3> users have lots of choice
[00:49]  * rickspencer3 nods
[00:49] <rickspencer3> seems that TheMuso and bryce work in domains that have some similarities
[00:49] <bryce> yup
[00:50] <TheMuso> Yeah, although there is many more combinations of hda implementations, compared to intel/other video chips.
[00:50] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, well we can add a few defaults.  I think the menu should have a link to the ~/Templates dir so the user can easily add/remove templates
[00:50] <rickspencer3> Jaunty was actually a very good release ... and I think it's making Karmic a better release, because the foundation is solid
[00:50] <bryce> lots more bugs than devs to fix them, and what devs there are seem to be predisposed to rewriting the architecture every other year ;-)
[00:51] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: but that sounds hard to implement ... and the user just needs something simple ... couldn't we just add the templates now, and change it later if there is user demand?
[00:53] <rickspencer3> djsiegel: welcome, I was just discussing the paper cut bug 372132 with robert_ancell
[00:54] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: I think the Example folder works by a sym link to /usr/share/something
[00:54] <rickspencer3> could we not use a similar system for Templates?
[00:54] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, yes it does
[00:54] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, I'd expect so
[00:55] <rickspencer3> funny how this UI stuff can create so much discussion
[00:55] <rickspencer3> I'd like to get that paper cut fixed this week, in a simple way
[00:55] <robert_ancell> that's the point of the papercuts project right? scratching those scars :)
[00:56] <rickspencer3> yeah, but as we said this morning, some of the paper cuts turn out to really be more like knife wounds ;)
[00:56] <rickspencer3> though not this one
[00:56] <rickspencer3> thanks guys
[00:56] <rickspencer3> I'll catch you all tomorrow
[00:56] <robert_ancell> bye
[01:00] <TheMuso> bryce: Its not quite like that with audi, but pulse for example is still undergoing rapid development.
[01:00] <chrisccoulson> is gnome-session crashing for anyone here on shutdown?
[01:00] <TheMuso> audio
[01:01] <bryce> TheMuso, yeah neither with xorg, but that's how it's viewed from the outside sometimes
[01:01] <TheMuso> chrisccoulson: I restarted earlier, and when I went to shut down, I didn't get the dialog box as I normally would. I just dropped back to gdm.
[01:01] <TheMuso> bryce: yeah same with audio
[01:01] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - looks like the same symptom
[01:01] <chrisccoulson> gnome-session crashes before showing the dialog
[01:02] <TheMuso> hrm and no crash file either.
[01:03] <TheMuso> And then gdm wouldn't let me restart. I clicked restart, and nothing happened, so I had to go back to a VT and press ctrl + alt + del.
[01:03] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, wierd. not sure if the gdm issue is related
[01:03] <chrisccoulson> it could be actually - they both use gnome-session
[01:06] <TheMuso> thats true.
[01:09] <chrisccoulson> seems someone already reported it - bug 399531
[01:14]  * TheMuso looks.
[01:21] <chrisccoulson> right
[01:22] <chrisccoulson> there is a bug in one of our patches which causes it to crash when shutdown is not available
[01:22] <chrisccoulson> so there are 2 bugs
[01:29] <TheMuso> right
[01:33] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - i commented on the bug. there seems to be a bug with consolekit too
[01:34] <TheMuso> oh fun.
[06:44] <pitti> Good morning
[06:45] <pitti> bryce: upstream intel> I agree, they responed/fixed all my upstream bugs that I sent against uxa/dri2
[06:48] <TheMuso> Hey pitti.
[06:49] <pitti> hey TheMuso
[06:51] <bryce> pitti, :-)
[06:57] <pitti> bryce: hm, seems https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingXorg#Debugging%20Hangs%20/%20Freezes%20/%20Lockups is not the current documentation for debugging freezes; where does that live nowadays? (I'm following up on a bug)
[06:58] <pitti> ah, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Freeze
[06:59] <pitti> bryce: perhaps the old DebuggingXorg page should redirect to X/Troubleshooting
[06:59] <bryce> oh yeah that page really ought to be deprecated in favor of stuff in the wiki.ubuntu.com/X namespace
[07:00] <bryce> pitti, some of the info on that page is useful and should be merged in
[07:01] <bryce> it's on my todo list to mrge that page, but kind of lower down in the list
[07:01] <pitti> bryce: not that urgent, was just a little confusing
[07:02] <bryce> yeah.  also it needs to be done with some care since a variety of !X pages link to that page
[07:02] <bryce> so whatever the new landing page needs to match what visitors are going to be expecting
[07:05] <pitti> bryce: the redirect can stay for an indefinite time, to not break old links
[08:20] <seb128> good morning there
[08:21] <pitti> hey seb128
[08:22] <seb128> hey pitti
[08:22] <JonDoe297> seb128: good morning :)
[08:22] <seb128> hi JonDoe297
[08:22] <seb128> hey mvo
[08:40] <pitti> ugh, yesterday's empathy switch made the CDs overflow
[08:40] <pitti> why does it still ship pidgin? hm
[08:41] <mvo> hey seb128
[08:42] <seb128> pitti, you still have pidgin-libnotify seeded maybe?
[08:43] <pitti> seb128: ah, that would be it, thanks
[08:43] <seb128> that's just a guess I didn't look at your changes but it depends on pidgin
[08:43] <pitti> seb128: won't help a lot
[08:43] <pitti> but half an MB
[08:43] <pitti> unfortunately libpurple pulls in pidgin-data
[08:43] <seb128> how much space change did it make
[08:43] <pitti> about 10 MB
[08:44] <pitti> I guess it's time to remove gimp docs and add bck two langpacks
[08:47] <seb128> hey robert_ancell
[08:47] <robert_ancell> hey seb128
[08:48] <robert_ancell> seb128, can you pill the latest versions.py?  It has a few small fixes
[08:50] <seb128> robert_ancell, updated and page update done too
[08:51] <seb128> didrocks, are you still working on your gnome-python-desktop update?
[08:54] <didrocks> lut seb128
[08:54] <didrocks> seb128: I was planning to do it tonight (I'm almost free for working in the evening until next week)
[08:55] <seb128> didrocks, 'lut, ok cool
[08:55] <didrocks> and as I have made the last split of this package, I prefer to make the first update :)
[08:55] <seb128> yeah, it's just on your plates for some 3 weeks now
[08:56] <seb128> so I was wondering if you were still working on it
[08:56] <didrocks> RMLL and quickly stuff had higher priority at this time :)
[08:58] <robert_ancell> hey who updated the menu so it now uses categories? My games menu is now browsable
[08:58] <crevette> hello
[08:58] <seb128> didrocks, understandable that's why I was asking if the update should be unassigned so somebody else can claim it
[08:59] <didrocks> seb128: fine, but I keep it ;) (and I'm also planning in working on the dynamic association this week-end \o/)
[08:59] <seb128> robert_ancell, that's a merge error from Laney, the patch comes from debian but is buggy and we didn't use it before
[08:59] <seb128> didrocks, be careful to not overwork yourself though
[09:00] <didrocks> seb128: I just want to do as much as I can before my real holidays (mid-August)
[09:00] <seb128> hehe
[09:00] <seb128> everybody is taking holidays mid-august apparently
[09:00] <seb128> we can close the channel for 2 weeks or so ;-)
[09:00] <didrocks> :-)
[09:01] <seb128> robert_ancell, does it still break the alphabetic ordering?
[09:02] <robert_ancell> the submenus are before menu items but everything is in alphabetical order otherwise
[09:02] <pitti> ArneGoetje: oh, update-support doesn't build l-s-translations-* any more?
[09:03] <seb128> robert_ancell, hum, maybe debian updated it but it used to break alphabetic ordering, at least when you don't have enough items to get categories
[09:04] <robert_ancell> seb128, checked all the other menus, everything is correct
[09:04] <seb128> ok good
[09:05] <seb128> robert_ancell, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543078 in fact
[09:05] <Laney> hmm I didn't notice
[09:05] <seb128> "the games won’t be sorted anymore and will sometimes be duplicated. "
[09:05] <seb128> good news is that the other bug has been fixed in git now
[09:06] <robert_ancell> cool, it is a huge improvement!!
[09:07] <seb128> Laney, that's ok we didn't merge for a while and there is quite some changes, easy to overlook one, I just know I dropped the debian patch in intrepid
[09:07] <seb128> it was breaking the ordering for some users
[09:08] <Laney> ah well we can roll another revision with the new patch if we need to I guess now
[09:08] <seb128> Laney, we can wait as long as it's fixed for karmic
[09:09] <seb128> brb
[09:09] <robert_ancell> Can anyone explain to me why gnome-games has a dependency like this? gnome-games-data (>= ${gnome:Version}), gnome-games-data (<< ${gnome:NextVersion})
[09:11] <pitti> robert_ancell: looks like it would work with any 2.26.x, but not with a 2.25 or 2.27
[09:12] <robert_ancell> pitti, but why not just depend on the same version as the gnome-games package? It doesn't seem safe to me
[09:12] <pitti> robert_ancell: sure
[09:12] <pitti> that's in fact the usual approach
[09:13] <seb128> what would work with 2.26 only?
[09:14] <robert_ancell> pitti, so if I change to to = ${binary:Version} would anyone complain?
[09:14] <seb128> hum, got the gnome-session crash when opening dialog too
[09:15] <pitti> robert_ancell: fine for me
[09:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, what is the issue?
[09:15] <robert_ancell> seb128, the gnome-games package has an odd dependency that appears to make it use any one the data packages in that series.  But that doesn't seem safe to me and the user will end up downloading a new package for every upgrade anyway
[09:16] <robert_ancell> "any of the"
[09:18] <seb128> robert_ancell, using binary:Version breaks installability on other archs during some time
[09:18] <seb128> ie the package will build on i386 first so you will get the -data to the new versions but the arch any binaries not matching yet
[09:19] <robert_ancell> seb128, but in that case won't the packages be held back until both the gnome-games and gnome-games-data packages are built with the same versions?
[09:19] <seb128> installability is an issue for new installs, CD builds, etc
[09:19] <seb128> not really for upgrades which can be hold as you said
[09:21] <robert_ancell> seb128, a CD build by definition requires all it's dependencies to be built right?  And a new install is from a CD image?
[09:21] <seb128> both require to be able to install everything which is on the CD
[09:21] <seb128> the desktop CD is basically a compressed installed and the install is copying things from the CD to the disk
[09:22] <robert_ancell> seb128, I don't see the problem.
[09:23] <seb128> well, apt-get install gnome-games will not work
[09:23] <seb128> it will say "gnome-games on amd64 is 2.26.1 but -data is 2.26.2 they don't match"
[09:23] <robert_ancell> why not?
[09:23] <seb128> since gnome-games 2.26.1 will depends on -data 2.26.1
[09:24] <seb128> but since i386 already built 2.26.2 -data is 2.26.2 since it's arch all
[09:24] <seb128> and the amd64 arch any didn't build yet so gnome-games is still 2.26.1
[09:24] <robert_ancell> So what do all the other packages do about this?
[09:25] <pitti> mvo: ok, so apport test suite failure isn't your fault, seems something changed in toolchain/gdb/whereever; will investigate
[09:25] <seb128> they don't depends on binary:Version in a strict way
[09:26] <robert_ancell> seb128, ok, does it make sense to just depend on gnome-games-data (no version).  It's about as safe as assuming the data wont change between minor versions
[09:26] <seb128> robert_ancell, either use source:Version or a >= at least
[09:27] <seb128> I would use >= ${source:Version}
[09:27] <robert_ancell> seb128, oh, ok, can I use = ${source:Version} ?
[09:27] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[09:28] <mvo> pitti: thanks
[09:28] <pitti> mvo: merged now, thanks for your work there!
[09:28] <pitti> I'll fix the gdb tests, merge the kernel crash bits to trunk as well, and then upload
[09:28] <mvo> pitti: great :)
[09:29] <seb128> robert_ancell, I would use >= to avoid the installability issue I described before but yet
[09:30] <seb128> robert_ancell, you think the datas change in an incompatible way between minor versions?
[09:30] <robert_ancell> seb128, there's no guarantee.  For instance I just moved the location of a data file so in that case it would not be compatible
[09:31] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok, so use = ${source:Version}
[09:31] <seb128> robert_ancell, that doesn't make a real difference with binary:Version for us since we don't have binary rebuilds
[09:32] <seb128> that's a slight tradeoff between installability issues and non compatible datas issues
[09:33] <robert_ancell> seb128, sure.  I guess the archive needs to know which older versions to keep back for new installs
[09:33] <seb128> right, that would be the best way to address that
[09:34] <robert_ancell> seb128, and I guess apt doesn't handle picking and older version when multiple are available?
[09:34] <seb128> I'm not sure but usually the issue is rather than the old deb doesn't stay on the mirror once it's deprecated by a new build
[09:36] <robert_ancell> well, there is a fundamental problem there.  I guess the current solution is to get everything to build on all archs!
[09:37] <seb128> yes, the issue is not new, it's less of an issue in ubuntu since we have regular mirror updates
[09:37] <seb128> ie you retry one hour later and that's ok
[09:37] <robert_ancell> sure
[09:37] <seb128> if you miss the run in debian you have to wait half of a day
[09:52] <ArneGoetje> pitti: correct
[10:54] <chrisccoulson> pitti - regarding bug 399531 - if you're working on the consolekit part of it, do you want me to look at the gnome-session part? that will be a relatively low priority issue when consolekit works anyway, as the code path that triggers the crash won't be executed anymore.
[10:54] <pitti> chrisccoulson: would be good for robustness, since in theory one coudll change the d-bus policy
[10:54] <pitti> chrisccoulson: or call it from an inactive session, or os
[10:54] <pitti> s/os/so
[10:54] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, definately.
[10:54] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yes, I'm fixing CK now, and clean up patches along the way
[10:55] <chrisccoulson> thanks:)
[11:02] <pitti> thanks to you!
[11:02] <seb128> re
[11:31] <asac> any friendly archive admin around who could take a quick look at the modemmanager package and complain before i upload this? ;)
[11:34] <pitti> seb128: hm, since yesterday's updates, nautilus always destroys my icon arranging on my desktop
[11:34] <pitti> known bug, or shall I file it?
[11:36] <seb128> pitti, did you update gvfs too? does rebuilding nautilus with the new gvfs makes a difference?
[11:36] <pitti> seb128: yes and unknown
[11:38] <seb128> pitti, somebody mentioned the bug on #nautilus yesterday and I asked to open an upstream bug dunno if there is one now though
[11:38] <seb128> pitti, that's due to the gvfs charges
[11:38] <pitti> ok, I'll try a rebuild then
[11:39] <seb128> thanks
[11:39]  * seb128 can see Keybuk reassigning all the dbus bugs to the softwares
[11:39] <rodrigo_> what provides libgconf2.0-cil in jaunty?
[11:40] <seb128> rodrigo_, http://packages.ubuntu.com/
[11:40] <pitti> rodrigo_: it was temporarily renamed to libgconf2.24-cil for some reason
[11:41] <rodrigo_> ah ok, thanks
[11:41] <Keybuk> seb128: not all of them ;)
[11:41] <Keybuk> just those that really look like invalid data being passed to libdbus functions
[11:41] <seb128> Keybuk, bug #335284 for example what sort of code error is the application doing?
[11:42] <seb128> ie http://launchpadlibrarian.net/23191024/Stacktrace.txt
[11:42] <seb128> Keybuk, should libdbus handle a transport=0x0 without crashing?
[11:43] <Keybuk> seb128: the entire struct being passed in looks like it was free()'d previously
[11:43] <Keybuk> ie. gnome-keyring is passing in random pointers
[11:43] <seb128> Keybuk, where do you see that from the stacktrace?
[11:44] <Keybuk> I suspect gnome-keyring is keeping a pointer to the connection, and hasn't ref()d it
[11:44] <Keybuk> so the connection has been freed
[11:44] <Keybuk> seb128: it's the only way that transport can be 0
[11:44] <seb128> ok
[11:44] <Keybuk> it's one of the last things that dbus_connection_last_unref does before calling free()
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: shall I look at libgnomekbd/g-c-c sponsoring?
[11:45] <seb128> my question still stand, should libdbus handle 0x0 without crashing?
[11:45] <Keybuk> seb128: no
[11:45] <rodrigo_> seb128, pitti: about the 0ubuntu1 suffix in versions, which one should be incremented when doing revisions?
[11:45] <seb128> rodrigo_, 0ubuntu<n>
[11:45] <Keybuk> seb128: the problem is that the pointer connection=0x15d04a0 is invalid
[11:45] <Keybuk> you can't just pass free()d objects to a function and expect things to work out
[11:45] <rodrigo_> seb128: ok, got it right then this time :)
[11:45] <seb128> Keybuk, right, I'm just trying to figure how you know that the address is not valid
[11:46]  * seb128 learns every day
[11:46] <Keybuk> seb128: because it has the tell-tale signs of having been freed
[11:46] <Keybuk> I just recognise the symptoms having crashed D-Bus a few times that way myself
[11:46] <Keybuk> you really have to keep your refs in order
[11:46] <seb128> ok, seems rather guessing work that something I can apply in a rational way when triaging bugs
[11:46] <seb128> thanks anyway ;-)
[11:47] <Keybuk> not guess work
[11:47] <Keybuk> I just know the code well enough to read the stack trace and understand what happened
[11:47] <seb128> well, deep knowledge of the library if you want
[11:47] <Keybuk> something in gnome-keyring's main loop got the dispatch status of a free'd connection
[11:47] <seb128> I was trying if there is something a bug triager without coding skills could use to triage those bugs correctly
[11:47] <pitti> seb128: could you please have a look at bug 399508, my last comment?
[11:47] <seb128> +to figure
[11:48] <pitti> seb128: just checking whether the approach is okay with you
[11:48] <pitti> seb128: I would really like the two to be co-installable
[11:48] <seb128> pitti, sorry got sidetracked in this discussion, looking
[11:48] <seb128> pitti, yes I think that's fine
[11:49] <seb128> that's only a schemas and translations
[11:49] <pitti> seb128: the new version just adds a new key schema, so it should work fine with lib 3
[11:49] <seb128> right
[11:50] <pitti> doing then, thanks
[11:56] <Keybuk> pitti: I'm doing some serious gardening on the dbus bugs list
[11:56] <Keybuk> I think a lot of the crashes were the same bug I found a while back with Upstart, and I fixed that
[11:56] <Keybuk> filing everything else back upstream, or bouncing back to the package that caused it
[11:56] <pitti> nice
[12:08] <seb128> re
[12:08] <seb128> ok, new linux version doesn't boot on my laptop apparently
[12:08] <davmor2> meh weird.  does anyone use salut on karmic's empathy and have a jaunty box with bonjour on it?  Empathy seems to be able to see the jaunty box but not talk to bonjour, bonjour just doesn't see the karmic box :(
[12:09] <davmor2> bonjour in pidgin
[12:12] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i didn't know about bzr mv before. that's useful to know though. thanks;)
[12:21] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - any idea how i can attach gdb to gnome-session when it crashes at the start of the session?
[12:21] <chrisccoulson> it was easy with the old GDM, but doesn't seem possible with the new one
[12:23] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, i suppose i don't need to do that actually. i could just get it to leave a coredump and analyse it after
[12:24] <pitti> seb128: so, rebuilding nautilus doesn't change anything
[12:25] <pitti> chrisccoulson: by and large, g-c-c still seems to work
[12:25] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks. i didn't have a chance to test it last night with the libgnomekbd issue. i wasn't sure whether those dependencies could be relaxed or not, and it got quite late in the end
[12:26] <pitti> chrisccoulson: should be fine, new -common just adds a new gconf key schema, should work fine with 3
[12:26] <pitti> chrisccoulson: I added a new keyboard layout, etc., works fine
[12:26] <pitti> chrisccoulson: now I jsut wonder what g-c-c uses policykit for, to test that
[12:26] <chrisccoulson> thanks, thats good to know
[12:26] <pitti> there's a "set system-wide" button in keyboard capplet, but it doesn't seem to do anything
[12:27] <pitti> might that need the gconf polkit-1 migration?
[12:27] <pitti> either way, I'd upload the lot now, seems to work fine, and depwait will sort it out
[12:27] <chrisccoulson> upstream g-c-c only uses policykit or something in gnome-about-me. the "set system wide" button is an ubuntu patch, which mvo ported yesterday
[12:27] <chrisccoulson> the rest of the fedora patch was actually to patch an existing fedora patch, to add a "set system wide" button in gnome-appearance-properties
[12:28] <mvo> pitti: it needs the new ubuntu-system-service (that is not uploaded yet)
[12:28] <pitti> chrisccoulson: many thanks for that mega-update
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> and we don't have that patch
[12:28] <pitti> mvo: ah
[12:28] <pitti> nice
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> pitti - you're welcome
[12:28] <mvo> pitti: it should be uploaded when g-c-c is ready, then it should function again
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> i'm wondering if we should look at the fedora patch for changing system theme? it would mean users could theme GDM then
[12:29] <pitti> I'd wait with that until DX has done their works on new gdm
[12:29] <chrisccoulson> yeah, no problem
[12:30] <chrisccoulson> pitti - does the display capplet work ok? i had to change the screen-resolution-extra patch to work with the new version
[12:31] <pitti> chrisccoulson: by and large, yes
[12:31] <chrisccoulson> cool, thanks:)
[12:32] <pitti> enabling my internal LVDS switches down the resolution, and unusably rearranges the desktop
[12:32] <pitti> but that doesn't sound like a capplet problem
[12:32] <chrisccoulson> that bits difficult for me to test anyway, as i have nvidia hardware and use evil proprietary drivers;)
[12:32] <pitti> chrisccoulson, mvo: g-c-c 2.27.3 uploaded
[12:33] <chrisccoulson> yay \o/
[12:33] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/PolicyKitOneMigration updated
[12:34] <fta> seb128, evolution crashes or freezes each time i try to view or save an attachement, or when i ask the spell checker to correct a typo, is that known?
[12:35] <mvo> ubuntu-system-service uploaded now too
[12:35] <pitti> chrisccoulson: so it should now be gnome-{settings-daemon,screensaver,applets?, moblin-applets which need that soname transition, not too bad
[12:35] <pitti> mvo: \o/
[12:36] <seb128> chrisccoulson, start a non GNOME session and run gdb gnome-session there?
[12:37] <seb128> fta, where does it crash? did you update dbus and gvfs? did you reboot since?
[12:38] <fta> started a few weeks ago, and i see that on several boxes, so yes, updated and rebooted
[12:39] <fta> i can capture traces if it doesn't ring a bell
[12:40] <seb128_> re
[12:40] <seb128_> chrisccoulson, start a non GNOME session and run gdb gnome-session there?
[12:40] <seb128_> fta, where does it crash? did you update dbus and gvfs? did you reboot since?
[12:40] <seb128_> Keybuk, would some recent dbus changes make libdbus clients crashes in some cases until the dbus daemon restart?
 started a few weeks ago, and i see that on several boxes, so yes, updated and rebooted
 i can capture traces if it doesn't ring a bell
[12:41] <seb128_> fta, spell checker rings a bell not the file viewing or opening
[12:41] <Keybuk> seb128_: I can't think of anything that would, no
[12:42] <Keybuk> if there were protocol bugs, you'd get disconnected
[12:42] <seb128_> ok, weird, I will keep an eye on that
[12:43] <seb128_> I got some things crashing this morning and that has been fixed after a reboot
[12:43] <Keybuk> though remember that after an upgrade, both the clients and daemon are *still* using the old libdbus anyway
[12:43] <seb128_> right, I did restart some applications though
[12:44] <seb128_> in fact I restart my session but didn't reboot
[12:44] <fta> seb128, view/save seems to be a freeze /w 100% cpu, not a crash
[12:45] <Keybuk> that's odd
[12:45] <Keybuk> if you restarted your session, you'd be using both the new dbus daemon and new library ;-)
[12:46] <seb128_> Keybuk, the system daemon wouldn't be restarted would it?
[12:46] <Keybuk> seb128_: no, but that depends on which clients
[12:46] <seb128_> I will try to see if I can get the issue again
[12:47] <seb128_> the crashed where in dbus call made by gvfs
[12:47] <seb128_> the crashes were
[12:47] <seb128_> fta, bug #389101 is the spell checking bug
[12:48] <seb128_> fta, 100% cpu are you sure you are not just opening something which takes a while to download or process?
[12:50] <fta> seb128_, it's a brand new quadcore, i doubt 1h of 100% cpu is normal to open a pdf or a ppt/doc
[12:50] <seb128_> fta, ok, so I don't know, works fine here
[12:51] <pitti> james_w: halp plz
[12:51] <james_w> hi pitti
[13:10] <chrisccoulson> Keybuk - a long time ago, you made a change to procps to increase the maximum number of inotify watches, due to tracker (and the change was eventually moved to tracker). Was that change in response to any specific issues?
[13:11] <Keybuk> chrisccoulson: yes
[13:11] <chrisccoulson> the only reason i ask, is because the tracker developers tell me that it limits the number of inotify watches to (MAX - 512), although it is not clear how long that has been the case
[13:12] <Keybuk> chrisccoulson: "MAX" ?
[13:12] <Keybuk> chrisccoulson: the simple answer is that each directory watched costs one inotify watch
[13:12] <Keybuk> if you have 100,000 directories, you need 100,000 watches
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> it gets the maximum from somewhere in /proc apparently, and then self limits
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> ah, ok. so the change is probably still needed then
[13:13] <Keybuk> quest scott% cat /proc/sys/fs/inotify/max_user_watches
[13:13] <Keybuk> 8192
[13:13] <seb128> ok, I had to use a livecd to fix my karmic
[13:13] <Keybuk> that would mean you can watch no more than 8,192 directories
[13:13] <seb128> thanks to Keybuk
[13:13] <Keybuk> if you had more, tracker would exhaust all inotify watches leaving none for anybody else
[13:13] <Keybuk> that's probably why it limits itself to MAX-512
[13:13] <Keybuk> but something still needs to increase the MAX
[13:13] <Keybuk> seb128: what did I do?! :p
[13:13] <chrisccoulson> keybuk - thanks. so it looks like the change still needs to remain even though tracker self-limits
[13:14] <Keybuk> chrisccoulson: tracker should probably use fanotify() rather than inotify() anyway
[13:14] <Keybuk> given it's design
[13:14] <chrisccoulson> Keybuk - there's already talk about going to that
[13:15] <seb128> Keybuk, sudo dpkg -i *.deb let me downgrade libdbus and next reboot gave a init undefined symbol: dbus_message_iter_abandon_container
[13:17] <Keybuk> seb128: you downgraded libdbus too far?
[13:17] <seb128> Keybuk, 1.2.14-2ubuntu3
[13:17] <Keybuk> yeah
[13:17] <Keybuk> that's too far ;)
[13:17] <seb128> Keybuk, what I don't get it why dpkg didn't tell me that things are depending on >= 1.2.14-2ubuntu7
[13:17] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - just saw your earlier comment. is it possible to start a non-Gnome session from the new GDM (I didn't think it was, although I can't check that at the moment). With the old GDM, i just started a failsafe terminal
[13:17] <Keybuk> seb128: dunno, shlibs just didn't work for some reason
[13:18] <seb128> ok
[13:18] <Keybuk> it looks like it worked for the 1.2.16 upload
[13:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop: echo "somecommand" > .xsession; startx?
[13:18] <Keybuk> maybe I haven't quite figured out how all this symbols stuff works yet
[13:18] <Keybuk> seb128: why did you need to downgrade dbus?
[13:19] <seb128> Keybuk, I wanted to see if I was getting those apps crashing again after upgrading
[13:19] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - thanks, i'll try that
[13:19] <Keybuk> seb128: also remember that dpkg doesn't warn you when downgrading about breaking >= rules
[13:19] <Keybuk> it's one of the dpkg "annoyances"
[13:19] <Keybuk> it only ensures the dependencies of the set you're installing are correct
[13:20] <Keybuk> it doesn't check that you're not violating any dependencies of things already installed
[13:20] <seb128> right
[13:20] <Keybuk> (which is why dpkg -i can leave a system needed apt-get -f install)
[13:20] <seb128> anyway fixed by copying the new libdbus from a livecd ;-)
[13:22] <seb128> chrisccoulson, btw http://download.gnome.org/sources/libgnomekbd/2.27/libgnomekbd-2.27.4.tar.gz
[13:23] <seb128> some GNOME guy noticed the issue while trying to build GNOME 2.27.4 and rolled a tarball
[13:23] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - thanks. right after i prepared the GIT version ;)
[13:23] <seb128> chrisccoulson, yeah, sorry about that, svu who is the maintainer is not around but somebody else took the liberty to roll a tarball now
[13:24] <chrisccoulson> thanks. i suspect nothing has changed though, so there's probably no win in uploading this version
[13:26] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i just had a look in GIT, and 2.27.4 is the same as the one we just uploaded
[13:26] <seb128> right
[13:27] <Keybuk> seb128: obviously NoReply, Timeout and AccessDenied D-Bus errors are not dbus bugs - they're bugs of clients or services
[13:28] <seb128> Keybuk, right, I'm not the one who reassigned those
[13:28] <Keybuk> I saw lots of crashes inside dbus_connection_dispatch which I think I've fixed
[13:28] <Keybuk> but I'll keep an eye out to see whether they come back
[13:28] <Keybuk> there may actually be some dbus-glib bugs
[13:28] <Keybuk> since a lot of the GNOME apps use that instead of libdbus
[13:28] <seb128> Keybuk, I've rather issue with things similar to bug #397109
[13:28] <seb128> bug #397109
[13:29] <Keybuk> seb128: again, that's one of those things that looks like it's passing a free'd connection
[13:29] <seb128> lot of applications seem to be doing that
[13:29] <Keybuk> yeah
[13:29] <seb128> do you have any tip on how to debug those?
[13:29] <Keybuk> I think there might be a dbus-glib bug there somewhere
[13:29] <Keybuk> I had a similar bug in nih-dbus where I'd iterate a loop of watches
[13:30] <Keybuk> the first one would free the connection
[13:30] <Keybuk> but I'd still visit the connection in the second watch because the connection had more than one
[13:30] <Keybuk> valgrind should help
[13:30] <Keybuk> if it's doing what I think it's doing, it'll show up as accessing free'd memory
[13:31] <seb128> ok
[13:31] <seb128> the issue is that most people get the issue only once randomly which doesn't make debugging easy
[13:32] <seb128> chrisccoulson, did you say you had a fix for the gdm greeter registration warning issue?
[13:33] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - not for the GDM side, but i was going to disable the dialog in metacity. that was going to be my next task, although i need to debug this gnome-session crash first
[13:33] <seb128> ok
[13:36] <seb128> is any gnome-session work pending?
[13:36] <seb128> brb
[13:38] <seb128> I need to do an upload to fix gnome-session-bin not using Replaces on gnome-session
[13:39] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - there is an outstanding change in bzr to not call gtk-window-decorator from gnome-wm
[13:40] <seb128> ok
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> hmm, at least i thought there was
[13:41] <seb128> chrisccoulson, it's not indeed
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> perhaps i didn't push the change
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> which one is not needed?
[13:41] <seb128> can you push it now?
[13:41] <chrisccoulson> i can't now, as the branch is at home
[13:42]  * chrisccoulson really should get a job where he can work on ubuntu during the day without people noticing
[13:43] <seb128> hehe
[13:43] <seb128> ok, I will do the Replaces change now we can merge your change later
[13:43] <chrisccoulson> yeah, no problem. it will hopefully come with 2 crasher fixes too
[13:44] <crevette> chrisccoulson, I thought you were working for cano
[13:44] <crevette> in regards of the things you do
[13:44] <chrisccoulson> crevette - no, i don't ;)
[13:44] <chrisccoulson> i work in an entirely unrelated industry
[13:44] <chrisccoulson> ;)
[13:55] <seb128> asac, is there any way to import rdf bookmarks in firefox?
[13:56] <seb128> asac, ignore that epiphany can export in html too
[13:57] <asac> seb128: i wouldnt think so at first, but what rdf standard is epiphany using?
[13:59] <seb128> asac, that's ok I used html and that worked
[13:59]  * seb128 gives a try to firefox
[13:59] <asac> seb128: now that you asked, could you please paste the rdf exported thing? ;)
[13:59] <asac> or at least a few examples so i can figure what they use ;)
[14:00] <seb128> asac,
[14:00] <seb128> <?xml version="1.0"?>
[14:00] <seb128> <rdf:RDF xmlns="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:ephy="http://gnome.org/ns/epiphany#" xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
[14:10] <asac> seb128: using Shiretoko?
[14:10] <asac> s/using/trying/
[14:10] <seb128> asac, no, using whatever is in karmic
[14:10] <seb128> 3.0.11
[14:10] <seb128> and I already hate firefox
[14:10] <asac> use firefox-3.5 ;)
[14:10] <asac> thats what will be in karmic
[14:10] <asac> seb128: be open minded
[14:11] <asac> i dont hate epiphany either ;)
[14:11] <seb128> the damn thing use a cached version of a greasemonkey script and no way to update
[14:11] <seb128> asac, well I'm fighting for 10 minutes to get a greasmonkey script working now
[14:11] <asac> nor do i hate kazehase ;) ... its just that i hate konqueror :-P
[14:11] <asac> seb128: click on it after installing greasmonkey extension
[14:11] <asac> if it doesnt work then its a bug in the greasemonkey script ;)
[14:11] <seb128> asac, I opened http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/bugtriage.user.js but that was an outdated version
[14:11] <seb128> I deleted it in firefox
[14:12] <seb128> scped a new version there
[14:12] <seb128> and did add it again
[14:12] <seb128> and it's still using the outdated version
[14:12] <seb128> sshing on rookery show the right version is on disk
[14:12] <asac> maybe the http headers are messed up
[14:12] <asac> and ffox thinks the file hasnt changed
[14:12] <seb128> right
[14:12] <asac> i would restart firefox if thats the case
[14:13] <seb128> it tries to be too smart
[14:13] <asac> no
[14:13] <asac> if webserver is really buggy its not really a bug ;)
[14:13] <asac> but that first needs to be confirmed
[14:13] <asac> obviously
[14:13] <seb128> still not
[14:13] <seb128> asac, can you open http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/bugtriage.user.js and tell me if you have a GNOME stock reply if you do view source
[14:14] <asac> seb128: whats the diff of the two files ;)
[14:14] <seb128> in the prevalues list
[14:14] <seb128> the new file has a prevalues GNOME
[14:14] <asac> ok
[14:14] <asac> seb128: using our greasmonkey package or downloaded from AMO?
[14:15] <seb128> ii  greasemonkey                               0.8.20090123.1-0ubuntu2                    firefox extension that enables customization
[14:15] <seb128> I've that installed
[14:15] <seb128> I didn't download anything
[14:16] <asac> yeah. havent heard of such a bug though
[14:17] <seb128> asac, it's a caching issue if I rename the script on the server it's fine
[14:17] <seb128> hate hate hate
[14:17] <asac> good. then the questio is if the http headers are broken
[14:17] <asac> which i would think for now
[14:18] <asac> otherwise its greasmonkey trying to be too smart on its own
[14:18] <seb128> I didn't ask it to cache anything for me
[14:18] <walters> Keybuk: so these are some older crashes?
[14:18] <asac> firefox caching definitly works
[14:18] <asac> seb128: you did, because the default is to cache http stuff
[14:18] <seb128> how do I clean the cache?
[14:18] <asac> on disk and in mem
[14:18] <seb128> that's ridiculous
[14:19] <asac> not honouring http headers would be stupid
[14:19] <seb128> I'm probably not lucky but I'm running it for 15 minutes and I spent 10 minutes to try to make a thing which should be trivial work
[14:21] <asac> seb128: tols -> clear private data
[14:21] <Keybuk> walters: I think the ones I cleared out were - the ones I've filed upstream I think have not been fixed
[14:21] <seb128> asac, I don't want to clear my private data I just want to tell it to not try to play smart on this one since apparently that's a fail
[14:21] <asac> seb128: can you tell epiphany to not be smart about any operation?
[14:22] <asac> no. so if its really the cache then its to clear private data
[14:22] <asac> you caan select which private data you want to clear
[14:22] <seb128> asac, no, but epiphany doesn't fail to get my update greasmonkey version either
[14:22] <walters> Keybuk: are these all single crashes?  i'm not seeing a duplicate thing in the lp bug view
[14:22] <asac> yes, maybe because its stupid. or maybe because our greasmonkey extension is buggy
[14:22] <asac> but definitly not because firefox is smart ;)
[14:23] <asac> its stupid == our http server is broken and doesnt do proper timestamps
[14:23] <Keybuk> walters: which?
[14:23] <seb128> asac: well, forget about that, I've work to do I go back to epiphany if I can't get my greasmonkey to work with firefox
[14:23] <walters> Keybuk: say like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/395216
[14:24] <walters> Keybuk: oh wait, i do see a duplicate thing on the right, need to log in though.
[14:24] <Keybuk> walters: that has one duplicate, the link is on the RHS
[14:28] <walters> Keybuk: ok logged in, but i don't have permission
[14:29] <Keybuk> walters: what are you trying to do?
[14:29] <walters> Keybuk: click on the "Duplicates of this bug" link on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/395216
[14:29] <Keybuk> ahh
[14:29] <walters> i guess one of the duplicates is private maybe?
[14:29] <Keybuk> yeah
[14:29] <Keybuk> fixed that
[14:29] <Keybuk> you should be able to see it now
[14:30] <seb128> mvo, the xapian synaptic thing is really suboptimal
[14:30] <seb128> mvo, typing firefox-3.5 doesn't list firefox-3.5 on the first screen
[14:31] <seb128> it's some 3 screen further on the list
[14:32] <mvo> seb128: hm, I can confirm that
[14:32]  * mvo scratches his head
[14:33] <seb128> hey rickspencer3
[14:33] <seb128> mvo, I would expect the exact matches to be listed first
[14:33] <rickspencer3> hi seb128
[14:34] <mvo> seb128: it does that for most stuff (or should do it)
[14:34] <seb128> mvo, my experience is that it mostly doesn't
[14:34] <mvo> seb128: xapian is sometimes too clever, I'm having a look
[14:34] <seb128> mvo, ie "nautilus" gives some python-nautilus first
[14:35] <seb128> libgtk2.0-0 gives lot of dbgsym and libgtk2.0-0 is very far down the list
[14:36] <seb128> update-notifier lists update-manager before
[14:36] <seb128> mvo, in fact it's hard to find a case where it works ;-)
[14:38] <mvo> seb128: hrm
[14:39] <mpt> mvo, what would it take for Update Manager to be able to detect, ahead of time, which updates require a restart?
[14:39] <mpt> (Instead of springing the "oh, btw, you need to restart" surprise on you afterwards)
[14:40] <seb128> mpt, something in the package informations I guess
[14:40] <seb128> mpt, right now it's done my having packages dumping a file somewhere on the disk after install
[14:40] <seb128> my -> by
[14:41] <mvo> mpt: next to impossible unfortunately in the general case. we can add a heurisitic of course that should get ~90%
[14:41] <mpt> mvo, Mac OS X manages it, so it can't be impossible :-P
[14:42] <seb128> mvo, well we could have an extra control field for that ...
[14:42] <seb128> assuming that something requires a reboot in a consistent way after any upgrade
[14:43] <mvo> mpt: sorry, I meant with the current way its next to impossible. if we change the game (as seb128 suggested) then its certainly doable
[14:43] <mpt> ok
[14:44] <mvo> how far head? I assume before actual packages have been downloaded?
[14:44] <mpt> mvo, yes
[14:44] <mpt> So that it could be shown in the list of updates, for example, which ones will require a restart and which won't
[14:47] <mvo> mpt: we will have to add it to the packages list then
[14:47] <mpt> ok
[14:57] <mvo> seb128: I think I figured how to make it better now
[14:59] <seb128> mvo, you really rock!
[14:59] <seb128> mvo, let me know if you want some user testing ;-)
[14:59]  * mvo mubbles something about black art
[14:59] <seb128> lol
[14:59] <mvo> seb128: I will polish it a bit more and upload in some minutes, then feedback is welcome
[15:05]  * mvo adds a "Debug::Synaptic::xapian" option
[15:06] <hyperair> huh for some reason notify-osd stopped displaying notifications O_o
[15:06] <seb128> mvo, are all those debug options listed somewhere?
[15:06] <seb128> hyperair, dbus upgrade?
[15:06] <seb128> works here
[15:06] <seb128> but I rebooted after upgrade
[15:07] <mvo> seb128: not all, I add them to the README
[15:08] <seb128> mvo,
[15:08] <seb128> $ dpkg -L apt | grep README
[15:08] <seb128> $
[15:08] <mvo> seb128: oh, the apt ones are in configure-index
[15:08] <mvo> seb128: the synaptic ones are not
[15:08] <seb128> configure index?
[15:09] <mvo> /usr/share/doc/apt/example/configure-index.gz
[15:09] <fta> seb128, evolution-data-server-2.28 just crashed (a few minutes after a reboot with a fully synched karmic 32), that's in dbus.. but i see a new dbus that just appeared...
[15:09] <seb128> oh
[15:09] <seb128> thanks
[15:09] <seb128> fta, talk to Keybuk about dbus issues ;-)
[15:10] <seb128> mvo, danke, I usually try the manpages and then google, good to know ;-)
[15:10] <fta> i'm waiting for the dbus -dbgsym.. too bad there's no -dbg
[15:13] <hyperair> seb128: no, notify-osd seems to be complaining about not being able to find a panel.
[15:13] <hyperair> seb128: but i do have a panel.
[15:13] <seb128> hyperair, notify-osd bug then
[15:13] <seb128> fta, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/395216 could be?
[15:13] <hyperair> but what could suddenly cause it i wonder =\
[15:15] <seb128> hyperair, did you do any change to your gnome-panel config?
[15:15] <hyperair> seb128: nope.
[15:15] <hyperair> seb128: not recently, in any case.
[15:15] <seb128> dunno then
[15:15] <walters> i'm analyzing that bug now
[15:15] <walters> it's a fun one
[15:16] <hyperair> ** (notify-osd:11961): DEBUG: selecting monitor 0 at (0,0) - 1280x1024
[15:16] <hyperair> ** (notify-osd:11961): DEBUG: no panel detetected; using workarea fallback
[15:16] <hyperair> ** (notify-osd:11961): DEBUG: top corner at: 2295, 23
[15:16]  * hyperair scratches head
[15:17] <hyperair> lemme try and turn off one monitor
[15:17] <hyperair> aha. it works now.
[15:18] <hyperair> so basically it fails at detecting a panel on a dual head setup
[15:18] <fta> seb128, not sure, the (unresolved) StacktraceTop is slightly different, http://paste.ubuntu.com/218970//top
[15:19] <fta> seb128, btw, after by last reboot, all my menus are sorted (all separators gone too) and my desktop has been fully re-organized, which huge spaces everywhere
[15:19] <fta> it's the 2nd time
[15:20] <seb128> fta, "sorted"?
[15:20] <seb128> fta, nautilus not storing positions correctly is a known issue
[15:20] <fta> alphabetically
[15:20] <fta> i had my own organization for years :P
[15:21] <fta> *sigh*
[15:21] <seb128> weird
[15:21] <seb128> could be one of the debian changes
[15:21] <seb128> need debugging by somebody having the issue
[15:27] <seb128> asac, how do I do the "lp: 123 open launchpad.net/123" in firefox?
[15:27] <seb128> or whatever equivalent there is to having text entries for website/%s in epiphany
[15:28] <hyperair> seb128: create a bookmark and add a keyword to it
[15:28] <seb128> how do I tell it what url part the 123 should replace?
[15:28] <asac> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=%s
[15:28] <asac> %s
[15:29] <asac> http://www.mozilla.org/docs/end-user/keywords.html
[15:29] <pitti> seb128: oh, gnome-shell in karmic now
[15:29] <seb128> pitti, autofinger error
[15:30] <pitti> it wasn't meant to be?
[15:30] <seb128> pitti, and somebody did NEW it by mistake, it was supposed to be a ppa upload
[15:30] <pitti> heh
[15:30] <seb128> pitti, well it doesn't hurt but some depends are not in karmic yet so it will not build
[15:30] <pitti> seb128: and I wanted to commend you for being aggressive about reaching karmic goals :)
[15:30] <seb128> lol
[15:30] <seb128> well I don't plan to get git snapshots in universe
[15:31] <seb128> and they didn't roll tarballs yet
[15:31] <seb128> asac, thanks
[15:31] <seb128> ok, that's a space to use
[15:31] <seb128> I was doing "lp123" and "lp:123"
[15:31] <asac> yeah
[15:34] <asac> 16:27 < gnomefreak> did my menu redo its self? things i removed from it came back
[15:34] <asac> seb128: ^^
[15:34] <asac> i think its the gnome-panel he talks about
[15:34] <asac> fta had the same problem as it seems
[15:35] <seb128> Laney, ^
[15:35] <stgraber> hello, anyone also has its gconfd in some kind of inifinte loop eating all CPU looking for /schemas/desktop/gnome/interface (on Karmic of course) ?
[15:35]  * asac doesnt want to upgrade if that happens :)
[15:35] <stgraber> started this morning and reduced the battery life of my laptop by half :)
[15:35] <seb128> stgraber, did you try enable desktop effects?
[15:35] <gnomefreak> asac: seiflotfy1 the preferences/admin menus re populated itself with things i removed from menus
[15:36] <gnomefreak> also happened to fta
[15:36] <seb128> gnomefreak, no need to repeat that again that has just been said
[15:36] <stgraber> seb128: I have compiz running
[15:36] <asac> ah ... so really the menu. thats not that bad at least
[15:36] <rickspencer3> seb128: I wasn't able to reproduce Steve's screen saver issue eitehr
[15:36] <rickspencer3> is it ok for me to close it as invalid?
[15:37] <rickspencer3> by "ok" I mean "customary"
[15:37] <seb128> rickspencer3, well if that happens for steve that's a bug, I would just not mark it high priority if that's config specific
[15:37] <rickspencer3> ok, I'll leave it as is, but unassign it from the desktop team
[15:37] <seb128> rickspencer3, sounds good
[15:38] <stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/218991/ small part of what strace shows me though it's always the same thing repeating over and over
[15:38] <seb128> gnomefreak, fta: are your changes in .local/share/applications?
[15:38] <seb128> stgraber, is metacity running?
[15:39] <stgraber> seb128: I just turned off compiz so now it does yeah
[15:39] <Laney> hm
[15:39] <seb128> stgraber, there is a known issue about it using cpu
[15:39] <Laney> there was a file rename, maybe that causes it
[15:39] <seb128> chriscoulson knows about it
[15:39] <seb128> Laney, which one?
[15:40] <Laney> 	mv debian/gnome-menus/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu debian/gnome-menus/etc/xdg/menus/gnome-applications.menu
[15:41] <Laney> 	mv debian/gnome-menus/etc/xdg/menus/settings.menu debian/gnome-menus/etc/xdg/menus/gnome-settings.menu
[15:41] <seb128> Laney, arg, another debian change we undo usually
[15:42] <Laney> yeah I guess I didn't see the problem because I was only testing on new users
[15:42] <Laney> and it didn't break my normal user actually
[15:42] <seb128> well, when we do something usually keep doing it when merging
[15:42] <seb128> when it's done that's for a reason
[15:43] <fta> seb128, I have 77 files in my .local/share/applications, some years old, it looks like my changes are in there, but ignored, or something
[15:44] <gnomefreak> seb128: no but i have already changed the settings back to what i had
[15:44] <Laney> I'll fix it and grab that patch from git if you want
[15:44] <gnomefreak> i only have 12 in mine
[15:44] <seb128> fta, does doing a mv symetric to what Laney describe fixes the issue?
[15:44] <seb128> Laney, that would be nice thank you
[15:45] <seb128> fta, ie going in /etx/xdg/menus and drop the gnome- prefixes there
[15:45] <seb128> brb
[15:49] <Laney> is there something like svn-do for our packaging branches?
[15:49] <james_w> bzr bd-do
[15:50] <james_w> a tongue-twister command
[15:50] <kenvandine> what does that do?
[15:50] <kenvandine> oh
[15:50] <kenvandine> interesting
[15:51] <Laney> james_w: what package?
[15:51] <Laney> oh
[15:51] <james_w> bzr-builddeb
[15:51] <Laney> maybe I don't have builddeb on this box
[15:51] <Laney> thought I did, silly me
[15:51] <kenvandine> james_w, that looks very useful!
[15:52] <james_w> thank the person that wrote svn-do, I just stole the idea :0)
[15:52] <Laney> having debian/ only branches without it is a major headache
[15:53] <fta> er.. it's already called /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu and settings.menu here
[15:53] <fta> seb128, ^^
[15:53] <seb128> fta, does moving the gnome-* away makes a difference?
[15:54] <pitti> mvo: congrats, the "support kernel crashes" trunk commit is r1500
[15:54] <mvo> yeah!
[15:54] <pitti> I added a "except OSError:" for the calling of "crash" (if it's not installed) and did some stylistic cleanups, otherwise looks fine
[15:55] <fta> seb128, http://paste.ubuntu.com/219009/ (without any rename)
[15:55] <seb128> fta, right, mv gnome-* ..
[15:55] <seb128> fta, and see if that makes a difference
[15:55] <Laney> no
[15:55] <fta> seb128, then restart?
[15:56] <fta> Laney, no?
[15:56] <Laney> I don't think that will work
[15:56] <seb128> restart gnome-panel
[15:56] <seb128> Laney, any idea what else broke menus?
[15:56] <Laney> it's reading gnome-* right now
[15:56] <Laney> there's a patch
[15:56] <seb128> ah ok
[15:56] <seb128> fta, wait for the update rather than
[15:56] <fta> ok
[15:56] <Laney> if you move the other way then you will get your settings back
[15:56] <seb128> there is a patch which should not be applied which has been used
[15:56] <Laney> but we'll revert this change
[15:56] <seb128> neither Laney nor pitti noticed
[15:56] <Laney> so just hold tight
[15:56] <fta> i'll wait
[15:57] <pitti> hm?
[15:57] <Laney> sorry
[15:57] <seb128> pitti, gnome-menus got some merge errors but no big deal going to sort that
[15:57] <Laney> shouldn't have applied 06_menus_rename.patch
[15:57] <Laney> naughty us
[15:57] <pitti> sorry
[15:58] <seb128> lol
[15:58] <seb128> no need to be sorry guys that happens to anybody
[15:59] <Laney> just pulling the patches for menu merging
[15:59] <Laney> then the split should work well too
[16:00] <james_w> mpt: have you seen http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnomecc-list/2009-July/msg00007.html ?
[16:00] <mpt> james_w, no
[16:00]  * mpt looks
[16:01] <mvo> pitti: thanks a lot!
[16:01] <mpt> thanks james_w
[16:09] <pitti> rickspencer3: gnome-power-manager is desktop team (bug 135548)
[16:10] <rickspencer3> pitti: yeah, Keybuk let me know like 2 minutes after I reassigned it :)
[16:10] <pitti> assigned back to us
[16:10] <rickspencer3> could you please assign it to an engineer, rather than the team?
[16:10] <Keybuk> 2 minutes?
[16:10] <Keybuk> I was that slow? :p
[16:10] <rickspencer3> lol
[16:13] <Laney> the git patch is already in by Debian
[16:21] <seb128> Laney, which might explain why the sorting issue was fixed ;-)
[16:23] <Laney> yep
[16:23] <Laney> seb128: lp:~laney/+junk/gnome-menus
[16:23] <Laney> (built but not tested, on osx right now)
[16:25] <seb128> Laney, thanks, building now to test and uploading
[16:26] <seb128> Laney, we might need to add a postinst snippet to clean the new .menus since those are conffiles
[16:27] <Laney> yeah there is already some logic in gnome-menus.postinst if you want to do that
[16:27] <Laney> preinst sorry
[16:48] <mclasen> pitti: hey, I think I saw you file a bug about CK dbus permissions earlier today, but I've lost it in bug spam...
[16:51] <pitti> mclasen: hey
[16:51] <pitti> mclasen: I sent it to https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22178
[16:51] <pitti> (comment 1)
[16:52] <mclasen> thanks
[16:53] <seb128> Laney, uploaded with the preinst change
[16:53] <Laney> cool, nice work
[16:55] <mclasen> pitti: ah, turns out we had that change hidden in some other patch...
[16:56] <pitti> mclasen: I reviewed our CK package today, and we also have tons of patches
[16:56] <pitti> half of them are in git now, though
[16:56] <pitti> but last release is a while ago, so understandable :)
[16:57] <mclasen> pitti: I think we'll need a new ConsoleKit release soon, together with a new gdm release
[16:57] <seb128> mclasen, does gdm let out log out on fedora when you use autologin?
[16:58] <seb128> mclasen, I'm surprised that nobody noticed or opened a bug upstream before, I'm wondering if that's ubuntu specific for some reason
[16:58] <mclasen> let out ?
[16:59] <seb128> set autologin, start the computer, try to close the session
[16:59] <seb128> it autolog you again
[16:59] <pitti> i. e. no timed login?
[16:59] <seb128> where you would expect it to stay on the greeter and let an another user to log in
[16:59] <seb128> pitti, I'm not sure now if it used to time login the same user or just to stay on the greeter
[17:00] <mclasen> not sure what the latest status about that is, it sure has been complained about before
[17:00] <seb128> ok
[17:00] <seb128> I might better try asking on #gdm maybe
[17:14] <seb128> arg
[17:14]  * seb128 fixes gnome-menus again
[17:15] <seb128> Laney, 08_menus_prefix.patch need to be commented too
[17:57] <chrisccoulson> gdm requires gnome-settings-daemon doesn't it?
[18:06] <seb128> chrisccoulson, yes
[18:06] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i thought so.
[18:06] <chrisccoulson> thanks:)
[18:06] <seb128> chrisccoulson, it requires gnome-session which requires gnome-settings-daemon if you want things working correctly
[18:06] <seb128> ie have a theme, etc
[18:07] <chrisccoulson> yeah. did you see cody-somerville proposed a merge in to GDM, which changes the dependency from gnome-session to gnome-session-bin?
[18:07] <chrisccoulson> that will mean that GDM no longer gets the gnome-settings-daemon dependency
[18:16] <Laney> seb128: hehe
[18:16] <seb128> chrisccoulson, no
[18:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson, those merge requests go whoever knows
[18:32] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i think i've spotted the gnome-session problem ;)
[18:32] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yay!
[18:33] <chrisccoulson> the dbus_g_proxy_call_with_timeout used to call CanStop is missing a G_TYPE_BOOLEAN
[18:33] <chrisccoulson> its crashing after calling that function anyway
[18:34] <pitti> chrisccoulson: ah, that explains why it still broke even if it's allowed to call this
[18:34] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it seems something in the session calls CanShutdown on the gnome-session interface, then that makes it crash
[18:35] <chrisccoulson> its not actually crashing or leaving a core dump though. it actually catches the SIGSEGV, then freezes :-/
[18:36] <chrisccoulson> it freezes in the signal handler somewhere
[18:36] <chrisccoulson> but that is better for me because it means i can attach gdb too it ;)
[18:53] <chrisccoulson> yay! gnome-session doesn't crash anymore \o/
[18:53] <chrisccoulson> and the shutdown dialog works:)
[18:54] <didrocks> seb128: gnome-python-desktop ready for review
[18:55] <seb128> chrisccoulson, didrocks: good work ;-)
[18:56] <chrisccoulson> i'll push the changes shortly seb128. there is still one crash bug to fix, but users won't experience that unless their dbus policy is messed up or consolekit disappears
[18:56] <chrisccoulson> do you want me to push the changes and then look at the other crash later on? it's less urgent than the one i've just fixed
[18:57] <seb128> whatever you prefer, I'm about to go for dinner I will do sponsoring in 1.5 hour
[18:57] <chrisccoulson> ok, i'll catty on working on it for now. i might have the other one fixed by the time you finish dinner hopefully
[18:57] <chrisccoulson> catty -> carry
[18:58] <chrisccoulson> (my fingers must be too big)
[20:00] <asac> superm1: hey. re bluez upgrade issue. i think its ok to not do any complicated recovery stuff for the ubuntu1/2 packages
[20:01] <superm1> asac, so just ignore them?
[20:01] <asac> superm1: we are just having brekage for 24h in karmic alpha ... so i think if it helps we dont need to fix it.
[20:02] <asac> yes ... if the fix is really tricky, just ignore it (assuming its really not a problem if users go to ubuntu3 directly)
[20:02] <superm1> yeah it's fine if you go to ubuntu3 directly
[20:02] <superm1> the fix is really tricky to get right it seems after looking at a few different options
[20:02] <asac> thats what i thought
[20:02] <superm1> i'll mark the bug as 'Won't Fix' then and put the workarounds in the description then
[20:02] <asac> i think < 24h not-recovered brekage is ok in alpha2 stage
[20:03] <asac> superm1: right. thats good approach
[20:04] <superm1> okay thanks :)
[20:04] <chrisccoulson> it does seem like breakage is increasing now ;)
[20:04] <asac> chrisccoulson: in ubuntu3?
[20:04] <chrisccoulson> in general
[20:04] <asac> or in general ;)
[20:05] <geser> superm1: I don't have any detailed analysis, but to it looks like the old prerm tries to stop the daemon (and the initscript fails). If that's the only thing the prerm does, the new prerm just need to catch this ("failed-upgrade") and do nothing (the daemon is stopped else the bug won't occur) and the upgrade should proceed.
[20:05] <asac> ah. hehe. yes, i always felt like that at some point everything will blow up completely ;)
[20:05] <chrisccoulson> it wouldn't be as much fun if things didn't break ;)
[20:06] <chrisccoulson> i'd have nothing to do in the evenings!
[20:06] <asac> no complains, no rants. that would be bad indeed
[20:06] <chrisccoulson> heh. well, i'm sure everyone could do without the rants
[20:07] <chrisccoulson> breakage && !rants = good ;)
[20:08] <superm1> geser, okay i'll try, if that doesn't work out, i'll plan on just "Won't Fix"
[20:11] <geser> superm1: see also comment #8 and #9 for a prerm and postrm
[20:11] <geser> in that bug
[20:14] <chrisccoulson> hi seb128
[20:14] <chrisccoulson> nice dinner?
[20:14] <seb128> hello chrisccoulson
[20:14] <seb128> yes!
[20:14] <chrisccoulson> i just finished fixing the second crash now \o/
[20:14] <didrocks> seb128: I'm looking at updating empathy. Upstream seems to have API incompatibility (some symbols removed) without bumping the soname. I looked at what the DM does to achieve the same thing. But probably tomorrow :)
[20:14] <seb128> ready for some sponsoring now if anybody has something ready ;-)
[20:15] <seb128> didrocks, ask bigon if he's around*
[20:16] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i'll push the changes, but the second patch is quite hard to review with it being a patch on a patch. it looks much bigger than it really is
[20:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I usually apply patches to both versions and diff those for reviewing
[20:17] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i can do that
[20:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, don't bother I will do that while reviewing
[20:18] <seb128> but did you add a patch changing an another one?
[20:18] <seb128> or did you update a patch?
[20:18] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i just updated an existing patch
[20:19] <seb128> ok so don't bother I know how to review those ;-)
[20:19] <chrisccoulson> thanks:)
[20:21] <seb128> chrisccoulson, there is a new gnome-session version available btw if you want to do the update
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i could do
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> i also notice theres a new g-c-c available ;)
[20:23] <seb128> g-c-c is going to be challenging whoever takes it should be ready
[20:23] <seb128> they switched things to gtkbuilder and we have glade patches that will be fun
[20:24] <didrocks> how to have some funny time  \o/
[20:25] <didrocks> seb128: the easier way for regenerating a .symbols file, is to empty the existing one, and then run dpkg-gensymbols? or is there something else I'm missing?
[20:25] <seb128> didrocks, updating you mean?
[20:26] <didrocks> seb128: yes
[20:26] <seb128> didrocks, well usually build breaks and give you the diff to apply
[20:27] <seb128> at least for the packages which use .symbols I've worked on
[20:27] <didrocks> ok, so copy the diff and apply the patch.
[20:27] <Laney> there is a good guide somewhere on the wiki
[20:27] <Laney> google for dpkg-gensymbols or so
[20:27] <didrocks> Laney: thanks. let's try this
[20:28] <seb128> didrocks, that's what I do
[20:28] <didrocks> ok, thanks :)
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i've pushed the gnome-session fixes. i'm not sure if you want to sponsor them as they are, and i'll prepare the new upstream version later this evening after i've had some dinner
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> or whether you want to wait for me to do the new version update
[20:30] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I will sponsor the fix first and then you can do the update easier this way
[20:30] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - thanks:)
[20:30] <seb128> thank you!
[20:31] <chrisccoulson> if you test gnome-session, you will notice that the shutdown and restart options in the session dialog will be inactive. that will go away when pitti uploads his consolekit fix
[20:32] <seb128> ok
[20:38] <didrocks> seb128: do we have to keep the #MISSING in the .symbol file so that dh_shlibsdeps knows when a public symbol was removed?
[20:38] <seb128> didrocks, no idea, I've no clue about .symbols
[20:38] <didrocks> seb128: ok, let's google if dh_shlibsdeps is smarter enough and detect this case
[20:48] <superm1> geser, gave it a shot, but still fails
[20:48] <seb128> chrisccoulson, could you change the .install in the next upload to not move the desktop to usr?
[20:49] <geser> superm1: :(
[20:50] <superm1> will mark it as won't fix then.  no use investing too much time into this with other breakage going on right now outside of bluez
[20:51] <geser> superm1: will look myself later at it
[20:51] <superm1> well i only changed the prerm
[20:51] <superm1> that poster seems to  think if i change both it will be fine
[20:51] <superm1> ill do that just for santities sake
[20:56] <seb128> didrocks, you use "2.27.2" as package version?
[20:56] <seb128> didrocks, don't bother changing I will fix that while I change the upload target to karmic too
[20:56] <seb128> ;-)
[20:58] <didrocks> seb128: oupsss, sorry, too tired apparently :)
[20:58] <seb128> didrocks, no worry ;-)
[20:58] <chrisccoulson> gi seb128 - does the current version move desktop files to /usr?
[20:58] <Laney> oh
[20:58] <Laney> tomboy got done already
[20:58] <seb128> chrisccoulson, yes, debian doing
[20:59] <chrisccoulson> ah
[20:59] <seb128> chrisccoulson, but conffiles are not moved on upgrades so we got duplicates desktop files shipped
[20:59] <chrisccoulson> it's not installing any at all
[20:59] <seb128> what?
[20:59] <chrisccoulson> i made the debian/rules change to not move the desktop files
[20:59] <seb128> Laney, yes, robert_ancell did that, better to open a bug to claim work nowadays
[20:59] <chrisccoulson> but i must have forgotten to change the install file when i did the merge too
[20:59] <Laney> seb128: ok since you asked me to do it I thought it wasnt necessary
[21:00] <chrisccoulson> so i doubt it's installing any desktop files at all
[21:00] <seb128> chrisccoulson, debian/tmp/etc/xdg/autostart usr/share/gnome
[21:00] <seb128> in gnome-session.install
[21:00] <chrisccoulson> oh, ok. that must have changed in debian then. they moved them in debian/rules before
[21:00] <seb128> Laney, sorry about that, it come as a surprise that robert_ancell did it but he picks things on versions.html so better to open bugs nowadays
[21:00] <Laney> alright
[21:00] <Laney> its no worry
[21:01] <seb128> Laney, doing the jaunty sru would still be appreciated
[21:01] <Laney> yeah I got that version into sid yesterday
[21:01] <Laney> will do
[21:01] <Laney> did you get sru ack?
[21:01] <jbailey> seb128!
[21:02] <seb128> hey jbailey
[21:02] <jbailey> seb128, Got time for a silly Gnome coding question?  I'm trying to figure out how to make Chrome an option on the Preferred Browser option.  I figured out how to make it show up on right-click, but can't for the life of me find docs for preferred apps.
[21:02] <seb128> Laney, no but it's getting political with upstream and I told jcastro we will do it
[21:03] <Laney> ok
[21:03] <Laney> i'll do it tonight
[21:03] <seb128> jbailey, gconf /desktop/gnome/applications/browser
[21:04] <jbailey> Ah, okay.  I was looking through fd.o stuff, since I noticed that Konq adds itself there.
[21:04] <jbailey> Thanks. =)
[21:04] <seb128> you're welcome
[21:06] <seb128> james_w, did you get any bug about bzr-buildpackage failing to untar the orig tarball?
[21:06] <james_w> seb128: fixed in karmic today
[21:07] <seb128> james_w, I've 2.2~ubuntu1
[21:07] <seb128> I don't see a newer version uploaded
[21:08] <james_w> hmm
[21:08] <james_w> file a bug with the log then please
[21:08] <seb128> it doesn't do it on any source but I get the issue on gnome-desktop
[21:08] <seb128> "gzip: stdout: Broken pipe"
[21:09] <seb128> james_w, ok, will do
[21:09] <james_w> sounds like that bug
[21:09] <james_w> perhaps there's a case I missed
[21:12] <seb128> jbailey, sorry I misread your question before, I though you wanted to change the default browser
[21:14] <jbailey> seb128, Ah, right.
[21:14] <jbailey> No, I mean from a package's point of view of how to make itself an option.
[21:14] <seb128> jbailey, add a .xml in /usr/share/gnome-control-center/default-apps
[21:14] <seb128> jbailey, see bug #357675 there is an example
[21:15] <seb128> jbailey, the pastebin url has a browser example
[21:15] <jbailey> D'oh!  It looks liek someone beat me to this in the latest devchannel release.
[21:15] <jbailey> The new update at the end of last week seems to have added itself there.
[21:16] <jbailey> Thanks. =)
[21:18] <seb128> james_w, bug #https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bzr-builddeb/+bug/399938
[21:18] <james_w> thanks
[21:19] <seb128> np
[21:19] <seb128> let me know if you need extra details
[21:20] <Laney> woah
[21:20] <Laney> really close to 400000 now
[21:21] <seb128> indeed we will probably get there over night
[21:32] <Laney> I wish we could sync to -proposed
[21:34] <seb128> you don't want extra package changes for a sru
[21:34] <seb128> in not sync on debian just do the update
[21:35] <Laney> I know :)
[21:35] <Laney> just that it would be easier
[21:40] <chrisccoulson> Laney - i'm sure we'll hit 400000 in an hour or so with our enthusiastic users ;)
[21:40] <Laney> I told ubuntu-uk and a couple of people said it was so bug-free that they had nothing to report...
[21:41] <chrisccoulson> really? i'm surprised!
[21:42] <james_w> seb128: wfm
[21:42] <james_w> seb128: what does "bzr plugins -v" say?
[21:42] <seb128_> james_w, hum, ok
[21:42] <seb128_> james_w, http://paste.ubuntu.com/219273/
[21:43] <james_w> seb128: weird
[21:43] <didrocks> I had this error once with a package (maybe gnome-python too)
[21:43] <james_w> ah "dpkg-source"
[21:43] <james_w> not "tar"
[21:43] <james_w> oops
[21:43] <james_w> sorry :-)
[21:44] <seb128_> james_w, the steps are not clear enough?
[21:44] <james_w> they were
[21:44] <james_w> I just killed it too early I think
[21:44] <james_w> I saw it download the tarball and extract it
[21:44] <seb128_> james_w, btw is there a way to tell to bzr-buildpackage to not clear the build dir after signing?
[21:45] <james_w>   --dont-purge          Don't purge the build directory after building.
[21:45] <seb128_> james_w, I'm used to run dh_install --missing and some other things there
[21:45] <seb128_> james_w, right but can I set that as default somewhere?
[21:45] <seb128_> sorry the question was not clear
[21:45] <james_w> nope
[21:45] <seb128_> I'm lazy to type the option every time ;-)
[21:46] <seb128_> ok, I will do an alias then I guess
[21:46] <seb128_> thanks
[21:46] <james_w> you could "bzr alias bd 'bd --dont-purge'"
[21:46] <james_w> and then use "bzr bd" instead of bzr-buildpackage
[21:46] <james_w> or a shell alias
[21:46] <james_w> or send a patch to add the config option
[21:46] <seb128_> lot of options ;-)
[21:46] <james_w> should be easy
[21:46] <seb128_> I will figure something thanks
[21:47] <seb128_> I just didn't want to duplicate something existent
[21:49] <james_w> seb128: do you know why I don't get a gpg agent on karmic?
[21:49] <james_w> and perhaps relatedly why the ssh-agent doesn't always come up?
[21:49] <seb128_> james_w, is seahorse-plugins installed?
[21:49] <james_w> ah, no
[21:49] <james_w> must have been removed on upgrade
[21:49] <james_w> thanks
[21:49] <seb128_> that would be why
[21:50] <seb128_> there is a bug opened about that
[21:50] <seb128_> the current way it works it take start time
[21:50] <seb128_> and most users don't need a gpg agent
[21:50] <seb128_> there has been discussing on whether it should still be installed by default or not
[21:51] <james_w> seb128: upload on the way to fix you problem, thanks for the report
[21:52] <seb128_> james_w, you rock as usual thanks for the quick fixing ;-)
[21:52] <james_w> should have noticed that problem when I fixed the same thing elsewhere
[21:58] <seb128> asac, is pagedown not working in firefox on launchpad sometime a known issue?
[22:11] <asac> seb128: yeah. that came back up today ... http://identi.ca/notice/6505092
[22:11] <asac> is that caret mode thing what you experience?
[22:12] <asac> e.g. suddenly having a caret like in the editor moving around?
[22:13] <seb128> asac, yes, I had the same issue in epiphany that's one of the things which made me try firefox in fact since I though that was a GNOME bug ;-)
[22:14] <seb128> asac, though epiphany doesn't annoy me with a dialog when I do f7 twice quickly to workaround the bug
[22:14] <seb128> (though I think it's a good idea that firefox display a warning that confuses quite some users)
[22:14] <seb128> anyway thanks for the bug reference
[22:15] <seb128> I'm getting used to firefox though the quick bookmark thing is less efficient
[22:15] <seb128> you have to type things and remember keywords
[22:16] <didrocks> ok, time to get some reste. Just noticed that upstream forgot to generate the configure from last configure.ac (was wondering why the old librairie named version was still built)… That will be for tomorrow evening :-)
[22:16] <asac> seb128: its an odd bug. i am not sure, but it was never raised since the last comment was made
[22:16] <seb128> didrocks, 'night
[22:16] <asac> today it sprang up again
[22:16] <chrisccoulson> good night didrocks
[22:16] <seb128> asac, I started getting the issue one week ago or so
[22:16] <asac> was about to get that upstream soon
[22:16] <didrocks> seb128, chrisccoulson: thanks, good night to both of you too :)
[22:17] <asac> seb128: yeah. but its not like ffox/xul changed then
[22:17] <seb128> asac, I think there is still a xulrunner bug there, the carret should not turn on whatever the page is doing
[22:17] <asac> so its either launchpad retriggering this somehow
[22:17] <asac> or its somewhere else
[22:17] <asac> right
[22:17] <asac> i agree ;)
[22:17] <seb128> launchpad is a good testcase right now ;-)
[22:24] <seb128> chrisccoulson, btw open a bug if you intend to work on the gnome-session updates
[22:24] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, i'll do that
[22:24] <chrisccoulson> in case someone else takes it ;)
[22:24] <seb128> chrisccoulson, robert_ancell basically start when everybody else go to bed and he uses the versions page to see what is to update
[22:25] <chrisccoulson> i need to set up port forwarding on my router tonight so i can ssh in to my desktop and work on updates from work ;)
[22:25] <Laney> tomboy is good
[22:25] <seb128> Laney, the jaunty update you mean?
[22:25] <Laney> yeah
[22:25] <Laney> just updated changelog
[22:26] <Laney> no other changes
[22:26] <seb128> Laney, good, I will review and upload that tomorrow morning
[22:26] <seb128> no bug to close?
[22:26] <Laney> yeah looking at those now
[22:26] <seb128> good
[22:31] <Laney> is bug 201231 right?
[22:32] <chrisccoulson> Laney - you can run it in the notification area though
[22:32] <chrisccoulson> it doesn't have to be used as an applet does it?
[22:32] <seb128> no, you have way
[22:33] <seb128> +both
[22:33] <Laney> yeah
[22:33] <seb128> ie the menu entry is useful, I would let upstream decide about that or just close the bug if it's not open there
[22:35] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - do you know anyone i can speak to upstream about a patch in gnome-settings-daemon?
[22:36] <chrisccoulson> i attached one to the bugzilla some time ago but noone has given any feedback yet
[22:47] <walters> chrisccoulson: what bug?
[22:47] <chrisccoulson> hey walters. i'll just find it
[22:47] <seb128> chrisccoulson, try asking rodrigo_ maybe when he's around
[22:47] <chrisccoulson> walters - gnome bug #573980
[22:48] <walters> chrisccoulson: i know gnome as a whole isn't always as responsive to patches as it should be, but if you make a bit of noise and/or poke people directly it helps
[22:48] <chrisccoulson> it's quite a big patch, and i wouldn't mind some feedback on it soon :)
[22:48] <chrisccoulson> thanks walters + seb128
[22:52] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - the gnome-session update probably won't be finished tonight. we carry a patch that makes some changes to the capplet, which has been completely re-written in the new version, so it will reauire some porting
[22:54] <seb128> chrisccoulson, right the change is coming from debian
[22:55] <chrisccoulson> yeah, thats the one. it adds the button to save the session back to the capplet
[22:56] <seb128> we should try to get that upstream this cycle
[22:57] <seb128> chrisccoulson, btw did you send your previous fix to bugzilla, the patch we used for the polkit1 use comes from there I think
[22:57] <chrisccoulson> i think the patch came from upstream. i'm sure someone (perhaps vuntz?) said that when i talked about the patch in here before
[22:57] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, i sent that one to the bugzilla
[22:57] <seb128> chrisccoulson, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=575544
[22:57] <chrisccoulson> no feedback yet though
[22:58] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, that looks like the one
[22:58] <chrisccoulson> we have quite a bit of stuff using the gnome-session dbus interface now btw;)
[22:58] <chrisccoulson> the installer uses it and i think update-notifier does now as well
[22:59] <walters> chrisccoulson: i took a quick look and commented, but i'm not a g-s-d maintainer
[22:59] <seb128> chrisccoulson, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585614 seems to not have the bug you fixed, maybe pitti got an outdated version or something
[23:00] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - perhaps. the one pitti got was from the redhat bugzilla. i was going to leave a comment there ;)
[23:00] <seb128> yeah
[23:01] <chrisccoulson> walters - thanks for the comment. i'll check the patch again and see if i'm leaking that data
[23:01] <seb128> chrisccoulson, he left
[23:01] <chrisccoulson> ah
[23:01] <chrisccoulson> lol
[23:07] <Laney> what's the proper version for a new upstream in SRU
[23:07] <Laney> 0ubuntu0.1?
[23:14] <seb128_> Laney, you can use 0ubuntu1 karmic has a newer version
[23:14] <Laney> ok just didn't want AA to reject
[23:15] <seb128_> you just need something which will not conflict with next uploads in unstable
[23:15] <seb128_> unstable = unstable version = karmic now
[23:15] <Laney> bug 345166
[23:16] <Laney> diff is exceptionally trivial
[23:16] <seb128_> excellent
[23:18] <seb128_> Laney, can you open a new bug for the update and add the diff.gz and the debdiff there?
[23:18] <seb128_> that will make review easier for the sru team I think
[23:18] <Laney> i can do
[23:18] <seb128_> thanks
[23:20] <Laney> bug 399982
[23:21] <Laney> jaunty task needs approving
[23:22] <seb128_> Laney, thanks, time to go to bed now but I will talk to pitti about that and sponsor the upload tomorrow morning
[23:22] <seb128_> 'night everybody
[23:22] <Laney> ok, sleep well
[23:59] <rickspencer3> hi robert_ancell