[00:00] TheMuso: hi [00:01] Hey rickspencer3. [00:01] And good morning robert_ancell. [00:01] robert_ancell: just in time [00:01] you are one minute late [00:01] networking problems... [00:01] * rickspencer3 slaps ruler against palm [00:01] lol [00:01] * robert_ancell begins the revolution [00:01] lol [00:02] TheMuso: long time no see [00:02] hope all is well [00:02] All is very well thanks. Hope you both had a good trip. [00:02] I did [00:02] Great. [00:02] and it was cool seeing robert_ancell and everyone [00:03] TheMuso: before we start "the meeting" ... [00:03] it was good to see all the big GNOME people === asac_ is now known as asac [00:03] are you interested in attending Linux Plumbers? [00:04] Lennart will be there [00:04] hmm [00:04] http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/ [00:04] rickspencer3: Robbie suggested I attend previously, but I must admit I am not really that interested, since I don't deal with that level of detail in terms of implementatino, I just package. [00:04] I guess it's kind of soon, actually [00:05] TheMuso: prolly too late to get you there anyway [00:05] I understand concepts, but not at any great detail in terms of pulseaudio/alsa's code base. [00:05] I could pop down for a day if there was something useful I could do [00:05] However if people believe that me going is a good idea, then I will. [00:05] it's a long trup [00:06] trip even [00:06] lol [00:06] so we should only arrange it if you think it's going to really be worth it [00:06] * TheMuso thought rickspencer3 was going all New Zealand on us. [00:06] I don't, but if others do, then I'll go. [00:06] so, think about it, and let me know in a couple of days if you change your mind [00:06] robert_ancell: I wanted to ask you about your gdm config spec [00:06] yes [00:07] the blueprint is a little *ahem* think right now [00:07] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-gdmconfig [00:07] thin? [00:07] understanding that you just got from desktop summit [00:07] thin even [00:07] * rickspencer3 too much typing today [00:07] I was wondering when you thought you might get to a spec and have work items? [00:08] OK, can add those [00:08] where do I add a spec? [00:09] you just create a wiki page, then on the blueprint you click the link to "set the url for the specification" or whatever [00:09] there is a spec template [00:09] since this is a pretty well defined feature, it would probably be good for you to use the template [00:10] I'd like to get the work items added to the burndown chart as soon as is reasonable [00:10] enough of my whip cracking ... [00:10] do either of you guys have any agenda items? [00:10] no [00:10] No [00:10] okay [00:11] I wrote up the Western Edition meeting notes: [00:11] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-14#preview [00:11] instead of just reviewing them, shall I though on highlights that impact you, and let you read the notes at your leisure? [00:11] thats a good idea [00:12] +1 [00:12] so first is an action item: [00:12] # ACTION: everyone try both bluetooth front ends, report experience to asac next team meeting [00:12] we need to help asac with choosing the bluetooth front end [00:12] no bluetooth hw for me [00:13] robert_ancell: not even a phone? [00:13] nope :) [00:13] * TheMuso has 2 notebooks, plus a dongle he can plug into his desktop for bluetooth testing. [00:13] okay [00:13] so next week, give asac feedback [00:13] * TheMuso has a phone and a headset [00:13] TheMuso, perhaps I'll have to drop over for a day [00:13] I thought there was another action item to set up the mozilla security ppa as well [00:13] Thats certainly feesable. [00:13] but I seem to have "lost" it [00:14] that sounds fun, actually [00:14] do you guys ever get together? [00:14] No, but I have been thinking of organising something actually [00:14] * rickspencer3 invites himself to TheMuso house in Australia [00:14] heh [00:14] :) [00:14] I was thinking of inviting all sydney guys up for a day of work/hacking. [00:14] regardless of team etc [00:14] The Portland Posse does that like every month [00:15] /drinking /w [00:15] ^W [00:15] okay, moving on :) [00:15] the other item I wanted to mention was Empathy for alpha 3 [00:15] It's being built with webkit ... [00:15] ooo no good [00:15] not for a11y anyway [00:16] now I am woefully uneducated about this, but I fear that perhaps this makes it inaccessible [00:16] i am already getting asked questions about empathy for accessibility stuff [00:16] TheMuso: could we ask you to test that out for us? [00:16] Sure thintg. [00:16] thing [00:16] ok [00:17] other than that, there was just a bunch of status updates and what not [00:17] Yep. Whats the file syncing stuff that is waiting for an MIR? [00:17] I put the irc log at the bottom of the wiki to make it easier for you guys to read through it [00:17] is that ubuntuone? [00:17] yes [00:17] ah ok. [00:17] Nice to see that another db for evolution is being looked into. [00:18] is there anything that you guys know of that is in a PPA, but is meant to be in universe or main for Karmic? [00:18] no [00:18] ACTION: TheMuso to test accessibility of empathy built with webkit [00:19] Only a newer version of pulse, and that awaits an rtkit MIR competion which I need to talk to upstrea about some stuff for [00:19] gah typing [00:19] TheMuso: you may want to check with kenvandine to ensure that you test the correct version [00:19] (of empathy I mean) [00:19] ah ok. [00:20] ok guys, it was a short meeting this morning [00:20] in general, how are you guys finding Karmic? [00:20] Good since the last kernel update. Video seems better quality. Still issues with changing to compiz though [00:20] Better than expected, and plenty to do. :) [00:21] lol [00:21] * TheMuso has never run a dev release this early in a cycle [00:21] due to a11y concerns, but all seems ok. [00:21] TheMuso: there is still a lot of scepticism about pulse audio [00:21] I mean "out in the world among the users" [00:21] so you have your work cut out for you on that front, indeed [00:21] rickspencer3: To be honest, I am starting to feel that myself. I feel it changes too much from release to release, making things difficult to track. [00:22] * rickspencer3 nods [00:22] is there anything we should be doing to help you? [00:22] I need more help from those who understand whats going on and how things work basically. [00:22] I do feel a little bogged down with audio stuff atm. [00:22] when you say "those who understand" are you thinking of anyone specifically? [00:23] People like Daniel Chen who have knowledge of the audio architecture, how thigns fit together, and can help work out where bugs may lie, re triaging, and stuff like pulse muting volume bugs etc [00:24] hmmm [00:24] see #distro for a sec, Canonical only stuff. [00:25] Other than that, things are ok. I am on top of a11y stuff, which is good. [00:26] TheMuso: good [00:26] does the new gdm greeter work perfectly from an accessibility point of view? [00:26] Have to look into how accessible login is enabled with it. I actually hope to do that today. [00:27] ok [00:27] robert_ancell: TheMuso: thanks for your time this morning [00:27] I appreciate you guys taking the time to connect with me and the rest of the team in your mornings [00:27] * rickspencer3 smells coffee? [00:27] no prob [00:27] No problem. === pace_t_zulu_ is now known as pace_t_zulu [00:28] ok then, see you guys tomorrow [00:28] Till tomorrow. [00:30] cya rickspencer3 [00:31] heya bryce [00:31] going to plumbers? [00:34] rickspencer3, yeah planning to [00:35] I was thinking about popping down for a day [00:35] sounds like I missed a fun trip in the canaries, although sounds like there wasn't much X.org specific anyway [00:35] bryce: there was less than zero xorg stuff [00:35] though it was fun, and would have been great to have you there [00:36] bryce: x seems to be working well for me [00:36] fortunately it's been a productive week getting our intel bug reports cleaned up [00:36] (and lots and lots of baby prep stuff) [00:37] :) [00:37] baby prep is fun ... like buying a little keyboard so she can triage x bugs while nursing? [00:38] heh [00:38] so sometimes my screen turns black, for maybe one or two seconds, and then comes back [00:38] is that Jesse's feature of x reconstituting itself rather than freezing? [00:38] happens once per day or less [00:39] rickspencer3, yeah I realized I'm like in a real sweet-spot for -intel; all the versions and configuration settings in Ubuntu and upstream are consistent and we've got new enough snapshots that I can get people to test stuff easily and push it up with little retesting hassle. So I figured I should take advantage of this rare moment and push as many bugs up as I can. [00:39] I saw that list [00:39] it was impressive indeed [00:39] I hope Yingying didn't blow a gasket ;) [00:39] yeah I get the periodic screen blanking myself on -ati. Haven't sorted it out, but it sure is irritating [00:40] hehe, yeah haven't heard a peep from her [00:40] but the bugs themselves are getting attention so that's nice [00:40] * TheMuso gets the occasional blanking her eon nvidia as well. [00:40] screen blanking is annoying, but far better than crashing [00:40] here [00:40] lol [00:40] with proprietary nvidia drivers [00:41] robert_ancell: in terms of bug 372132 [00:41] Launchpad bug 372132 in nautilus ""Create Document" Templates difficult to use" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/372132 [00:41] interesting; I've assumed it to be an -ati bug, but maybe it's something more fundamental [00:41] does it seem that people might be over-analyzing a bit? [00:41] bryce: is there something I could do to get you debug data when it happens (which is pretty rare) [00:41] my current guess with the blanking bug is that it is something in the power management system [00:41] hmm [00:42] so my guess that it was Jesse's feature doesn't ring true, huh? [00:42] makes sense [00:42] rickspencer3, yeah I think what needs done is to look at the power management state... maybe have it log to a file and see if something changes [00:42] I'm not familiar enough with pmutils and such to know what specifically to do [00:42] it happens so rarely, but I'll try [00:42] I'll talk to robbiew, see what they suggest [00:43] I've noticed sort of a pattern to it, like it happens N minutes after powering on my monitors (where N is something like 30 or 60) [00:43] hmmm [00:43] powering on your monitor, but not your computer? [00:43] right [00:43] interesting [00:43] rickspencer3, I guess people are a bit worried that that menu will become full of stuff [00:44] It happens randomly for me, I can go several days without it occurring, and then it happens all of a sudden, then nothing for a while again. [00:44] robert_ancell: but can't we just drop three templates in the ~/Template directory for the user? [00:45] we have "examples" [00:45] As the default profile. Makes sense to me... [00:45] would that be hard to do? [00:46] * rickspencer3 is simple minded, but the fix seems simple [00:46] rickspencer3, anyway with -intel it feels like we've turned a sharp corner. There's still bugs, but they seem less severe and upstream seems to be smashing them much more definitively than in the past. [00:46] bryce: that is awesome [00:46] it does seem like it's all come together in Karmic [00:46] and in no small part thanks to your tireless efforts [00:47] as pitti mentioned this morning, you can play tux racer for hours now [00:47] :) [00:48] well, I certainly feel motivated to hammer on it since I feel so bad at all the trouble it was in jaunty [00:48] well ... it was trouble, indeed [00:48] rickspencer3, I think I agree the whole concept of a "new" menu is not necessarily good but it needs some user testing to back up that idea [00:48] I just wish more of the fixes could be backported [00:49] robert_ancell: it just seems like the users need something simple, and the concerns about the menu growing and stuff seem academic to me [00:49] bryce: well ... we're moving on to a new release [00:49] bryce: I feel the same way re audio. With karmic, a lot is changing and cannot be backported due to core infrastructure requirements. [00:49] users have lots of choice [00:49] * rickspencer3 nods [00:49] seems that TheMuso and bryce work in domains that have some similarities [00:49] yup [00:50] Yeah, although there is many more combinations of hda implementations, compared to intel/other video chips. [00:50] rickspencer3, well we can add a few defaults. I think the menu should have a link to the ~/Templates dir so the user can easily add/remove templates [00:50] Jaunty was actually a very good release ... and I think it's making Karmic a better release, because the foundation is solid [00:50] lots more bugs than devs to fix them, and what devs there are seem to be predisposed to rewriting the architecture every other year ;-) [00:51] robert_ancell: but that sounds hard to implement ... and the user just needs something simple ... couldn't we just add the templates now, and change it later if there is user demand? [00:53] djsiegel: welcome, I was just discussing the paper cut bug 372132 with robert_ancell [00:53] Launchpad bug 372132 in nautilus ""Create Document" Templates difficult to use" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/372132 [00:54] robert_ancell: I think the Example folder works by a sym link to /usr/share/something [00:54] could we not use a similar system for Templates? [00:54] rickspencer3, yes it does [00:54] rickspencer3, I'd expect so [00:55] funny how this UI stuff can create so much discussion [00:55] I'd like to get that paper cut fixed this week, in a simple way [00:55] that's the point of the papercuts project right? scratching those scars :) [00:56] yeah, but as we said this morning, some of the paper cuts turn out to really be more like knife wounds ;) [00:56] though not this one [00:56] thanks guys [00:56] I'll catch you all tomorrow [00:56] bye [01:00] bryce: Its not quite like that with audi, but pulse for example is still undergoing rapid development. [01:00] is gnome-session crashing for anyone here on shutdown? [01:00] audio [01:01] TheMuso, yeah neither with xorg, but that's how it's viewed from the outside sometimes [01:01] chrisccoulson: I restarted earlier, and when I went to shut down, I didn't get the dialog box as I normally would. I just dropped back to gdm. [01:01] bryce: yeah same with audio [01:01] TheMuso - looks like the same symptom [01:01] gnome-session crashes before showing the dialog [01:02] hrm and no crash file either. [01:03] And then gdm wouldn't let me restart. I clicked restart, and nothing happened, so I had to go back to a VT and press ctrl + alt + del. [01:03] hmmm, wierd. not sure if the gdm issue is related [01:03] it could be actually - they both use gnome-session [01:06] thats true. [01:09] seems someone already reported it - bug 399531 [01:09] Launchpad bug 399531 in gnome-session "[karmic] shutdown menu immediately logs out" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/399531 [01:14] * TheMuso looks. [01:21] right [01:22] there is a bug in one of our patches which causes it to crash when shutdown is not available [01:22] so there are 2 bugs [01:29] right [01:33] TheMuso - i commented on the bug. there seems to be a bug with consolekit too [01:34] oh fun. [06:44] Good morning [06:45] bryce: upstream intel> I agree, they responed/fixed all my upstream bugs that I sent against uxa/dri2 [06:48] Hey pitti. [06:49] hey TheMuso [06:51] pitti, :-) [06:57] bryce: hm, seems https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingXorg#Debugging%20Hangs%20/%20Freezes%20/%20Lockups is not the current documentation for debugging freezes; where does that live nowadays? (I'm following up on a bug) [06:58] ah, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Freeze [06:59] bryce: perhaps the old DebuggingXorg page should redirect to X/Troubleshooting [06:59] oh yeah that page really ought to be deprecated in favor of stuff in the wiki.ubuntu.com/X namespace [07:00] pitti, some of the info on that page is useful and should be merged in [07:01] it's on my todo list to mrge that page, but kind of lower down in the list [07:01] bryce: not that urgent, was just a little confusing [07:02] yeah. also it needs to be done with some care since a variety of !X pages link to that page [07:02] so whatever the new landing page needs to match what visitors are going to be expecting [07:05] bryce: the redirect can stay for an indefinite time, to not break old links [08:20] good morning there [08:21] hey seb128 [08:22] hey pitti [08:22] seb128: good morning :) [08:22] hi JonDoe297 [08:22] hey mvo [08:40] ugh, yesterday's empathy switch made the CDs overflow [08:40] why does it still ship pidgin? hm [08:41] hey seb128 [08:42] pitti, you still have pidgin-libnotify seeded maybe? [08:43] seb128: ah, that would be it, thanks [08:43] that's just a guess I didn't look at your changes but it depends on pidgin [08:43] seb128: won't help a lot [08:43] but half an MB [08:43] unfortunately libpurple pulls in pidgin-data [08:43] how much space change did it make [08:43] about 10 MB [08:44] I guess it's time to remove gimp docs and add bck two langpacks [08:47] hey robert_ancell [08:47] hey seb128 [08:48] seb128, can you pill the latest versions.py? It has a few small fixes [08:50] robert_ancell, updated and page update done too [08:51] didrocks, are you still working on your gnome-python-desktop update? [08:54] lut seb128 [08:54] seb128: I was planning to do it tonight (I'm almost free for working in the evening until next week) [08:55] didrocks, 'lut, ok cool [08:55] and as I have made the last split of this package, I prefer to make the first update :) [08:55] yeah, it's just on your plates for some 3 weeks now [08:56] so I was wondering if you were still working on it [08:56] RMLL and quickly stuff had higher priority at this time :) [08:58] hey who updated the menu so it now uses categories? My games menu is now browsable [08:58] hello [08:58] didrocks, understandable that's why I was asking if the update should be unassigned so somebody else can claim it [08:59] seb128: fine, but I keep it ;) (and I'm also planning in working on the dynamic association this week-end \o/) [08:59] robert_ancell, that's a merge error from Laney, the patch comes from debian but is buggy and we didn't use it before [08:59] didrocks, be careful to not overwork yourself though [09:00] seb128: I just want to do as much as I can before my real holidays (mid-August) [09:00] hehe [09:00] everybody is taking holidays mid-august apparently [09:00] we can close the channel for 2 weeks or so ;-) [09:00] :-) [09:01] robert_ancell, does it still break the alphabetic ordering? [09:02] the submenus are before menu items but everything is in alphabetical order otherwise [09:02] ArneGoetje: oh, update-support doesn't build l-s-translations-* any more? [09:03] robert_ancell, hum, maybe debian updated it but it used to break alphabetic ordering, at least when you don't have enough items to get categories [09:04] seb128, checked all the other menus, everything is correct [09:04] ok good [09:05] robert_ancell, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543078 in fact [09:05] hmm I didn't notice [09:05] Gnome bug 543078 in layout "Split games menu when too many games are installed" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed] [09:05] "the games won’t be sorted anymore and will sometimes be duplicated. " [09:05] good news is that the other bug has been fixed in git now [09:06] cool, it is a huge improvement!! [09:07] Laney, that's ok we didn't merge for a while and there is quite some changes, easy to overlook one, I just know I dropped the debian patch in intrepid [09:07] it was breaking the ordering for some users [09:08] ah well we can roll another revision with the new patch if we need to I guess now [09:08] Laney, we can wait as long as it's fixed for karmic [09:09] brb [09:09] Can anyone explain to me why gnome-games has a dependency like this? gnome-games-data (>= ${gnome:Version}), gnome-games-data (<< ${gnome:NextVersion}) [09:11] robert_ancell: looks like it would work with any 2.26.x, but not with a 2.25 or 2.27 [09:12] pitti, but why not just depend on the same version as the gnome-games package? It doesn't seem safe to me [09:12] robert_ancell: sure [09:12] that's in fact the usual approach === mdz_ is now known as mdz [09:13] what would work with 2.26 only? [09:14] pitti, so if I change to to = ${binary:Version} would anyone complain? [09:14] hum, got the gnome-session crash when opening dialog too [09:15] robert_ancell: fine for me [09:15] robert_ancell, what is the issue? [09:15] seb128, the gnome-games package has an odd dependency that appears to make it use any one the data packages in that series. But that doesn't seem safe to me and the user will end up downloading a new package for every upgrade anyway [09:16] "any of the" [09:18] robert_ancell, using binary:Version breaks installability on other archs during some time [09:18] ie the package will build on i386 first so you will get the -data to the new versions but the arch any binaries not matching yet [09:19] seb128, but in that case won't the packages be held back until both the gnome-games and gnome-games-data packages are built with the same versions? [09:19] installability is an issue for new installs, CD builds, etc [09:19] not really for upgrades which can be hold as you said [09:21] seb128, a CD build by definition requires all it's dependencies to be built right? And a new install is from a CD image? [09:21] both require to be able to install everything which is on the CD [09:21] the desktop CD is basically a compressed installed and the install is copying things from the CD to the disk [09:22] seb128, I don't see the problem. [09:23] well, apt-get install gnome-games will not work [09:23] it will say "gnome-games on amd64 is 2.26.1 but -data is 2.26.2 they don't match" [09:23] why not? [09:23] since gnome-games 2.26.1 will depends on -data 2.26.1 [09:24] but since i386 already built 2.26.2 -data is 2.26.2 since it's arch all [09:24] and the amd64 arch any didn't build yet so gnome-games is still 2.26.1 [09:24] So what do all the other packages do about this? [09:25] mvo: ok, so apport test suite failure isn't your fault, seems something changed in toolchain/gdb/whereever; will investigate [09:25] they don't depends on binary:Version in a strict way [09:26] seb128, ok, does it make sense to just depend on gnome-games-data (no version). It's about as safe as assuming the data wont change between minor versions [09:26] robert_ancell, either use source:Version or a >= at least [09:27] I would use >= ${source:Version} [09:27] seb128, oh, ok, can I use = ${source:Version} ? [09:27] good morning everyone [09:28] pitti: thanks [09:28] mvo: merged now, thanks for your work there! [09:28] I'll fix the gdb tests, merge the kernel crash bits to trunk as well, and then upload [09:28] pitti: great :) [09:29] robert_ancell, I would use >= to avoid the installability issue I described before but yet [09:30] robert_ancell, you think the datas change in an incompatible way between minor versions? [09:30] seb128, there's no guarantee. For instance I just moved the location of a data file so in that case it would not be compatible [09:31] robert_ancell, ok, so use = ${source:Version} [09:31] robert_ancell, that doesn't make a real difference with binary:Version for us since we don't have binary rebuilds [09:32] that's a slight tradeoff between installability issues and non compatible datas issues [09:33] seb128, sure. I guess the archive needs to know which older versions to keep back for new installs [09:33] right, that would be the best way to address that [09:34] seb128, and I guess apt doesn't handle picking and older version when multiple are available? [09:34] I'm not sure but usually the issue is rather than the old deb doesn't stay on the mirror once it's deprecated by a new build [09:36] well, there is a fundamental problem there. I guess the current solution is to get everything to build on all archs! [09:37] yes, the issue is not new, it's less of an issue in ubuntu since we have regular mirror updates [09:37] ie you retry one hour later and that's ok [09:37] sure [09:37] if you miss the run in debian you have to wait half of a day [09:52] pitti: correct [10:54] pitti - regarding bug 399531 - if you're working on the consolekit part of it, do you want me to look at the gnome-session part? that will be a relatively low priority issue when consolekit works anyway, as the code path that triggers the crash won't be executed anymore. [10:54] Launchpad bug 399531 in consolekit "shutdown menu immediately logs out" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/399531 [10:54] chrisccoulson: would be good for robustness, since in theory one coudll change the d-bus policy [10:54] chrisccoulson: or call it from an inactive session, or os [10:54] s/os/so [10:54] pitti - yeah, definately. [10:54] chrisccoulson: yes, I'm fixing CK now, and clean up patches along the way [10:55] thanks:) [11:02] thanks to you! [11:02] re === ember_ is now known as ember [11:31] any friendly archive admin around who could take a quick look at the modemmanager package and complain before i upload this? ;) [11:34] seb128: hm, since yesterday's updates, nautilus always destroys my icon arranging on my desktop [11:34] known bug, or shall I file it? [11:36] pitti, did you update gvfs too? does rebuilding nautilus with the new gvfs makes a difference? [11:36] seb128: yes and unknown [11:38] pitti, somebody mentioned the bug on #nautilus yesterday and I asked to open an upstream bug dunno if there is one now though [11:38] pitti, that's due to the gvfs charges [11:38] ok, I'll try a rebuild then [11:39] thanks [11:39] * seb128 can see Keybuk reassigning all the dbus bugs to the softwares [11:39] what provides libgconf2.0-cil in jaunty? [11:40] rodrigo_, http://packages.ubuntu.com/ [11:40] rodrigo_: it was temporarily renamed to libgconf2.24-cil for some reason [11:41] ah ok, thanks [11:41] seb128: not all of them ;) [11:41] just those that really look like invalid data being passed to libdbus functions [11:41] Keybuk, bug #335284 for example what sort of code error is the application doing? [11:41] Launchpad bug 335284 in gnome-keyring "gnome-keyring-daemon crashed with SIGSEGV in dbus_connection_get_dispatch_status()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/335284 [11:42] ie http://launchpadlibrarian.net/23191024/Stacktrace.txt [11:42] Keybuk, should libdbus handle a transport=0x0 without crashing? [11:43] seb128: the entire struct being passed in looks like it was free()'d previously [11:43] ie. gnome-keyring is passing in random pointers [11:43] Keybuk, where do you see that from the stacktrace? [11:44]