bodhi_zazenlooks like you are up nhandler00:00
nhandlerA while ago, we decided to make #ubuntu-beginners-council +mz00:00
nhandlerThis means that only voiced users can talk, and if you are unvoiced, only OPs can see what you say00:01
nhandlerThis also results in non-voiced users who idle in there being unable to change their nicks00:01
* bodhi_zazen recalls being over ruled on that one =)00:01
* Rocket2DMn wasnt there for that one00:01
nhandlerPersonally, I think +mz is not the best solution00:01
nhandlerI personally think we should make the channel invite only00:02
bodhi_zazenwell, unless the rest of the team wants to reconsider nhandler00:02
bodhi_zazenthat makes the vote00:02
bodhi_zazen2 against00:02
bodhi_zazenand 100 for =)00:02
Rocket2DMnI'm confused, how steep was the vote last time?00:03
bodhi_zazenI think the channel should be open all the time00:03
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Several BT members have complained over the last few weeks about being unable to change their nick if they idle there00:03
swoody+1 nhandler00:03
bodhi_zazenand we should +mz only for official business / meetings, if at all00:03
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: I disagree. Why should our discussions about other members be open to the public?00:03
Silver_Fox_+1 bodhi_zazen00:03
=== asac_ is now known as asac
Rocket2DMnShould anybody be idling in there other than counci lmembers?00:03
nhandlerMost other councils, the RMBs included have secret IRC channels and mailing lists that they use00:03
nhandlerRocket2DMn: IMO, no00:03
bodhi_zazenwhy should we have a closed channel at all =)00:04
bodhi_zazenI like open00:04
swoody+1 bodhi_zazen :)00:04
Rocket2DMnI don't think the channel should be closed, I just don't think people should be idling in there00:04
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Because one of our main purposes is to deal with user conflicts, which by nature should be done privately00:04
Silver_Fox_i have sat in on a council meeting.  i didn't say anything though it was nice to be there.00:04
nhandlerRocket2DMn: We could implement a policy similar to #ubuntu-ops, which is open, but there is a strict no idle policy00:04
nhandlerYou can go there to report an issue, but once the issue has been addressed, you are required to part00:05
bodhi_zazenI think the channel should be open, and closed as needed, which IMO is rare if at all00:05
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: What are your feelings about a no-idle policy?00:05
bodhi_zazenI feel I will be over ruled =)00:06
nhandlerThat would allow people to report issues, but would avoid turning the issues into a "show"00:06
bodhi_zazenWhatever you all wish is OK with me00:06
nhandlerAny other opinions on a no-idle policy?00:06
bodhi_zazenI think we can manage most of the issues via moderation00:06
bodhi_zazenask people to leave if needed00:07
bodhi_zazenor change teh channel to +m or what not if needed00:07
superbennyagreed, bodhi_zazen00:07
Rocket2DMnboth options sounds ok to me00:07
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: What is your reasoning behind wanting people to idle in the -council channel?00:07
bodhi_zazenfree as in freedom00:08
swoodyI agree bodhi_zazen. It doesn't seem like there's been enough 'wild action' in there to require it be closed all the time. I feel a nice open channel will be useful, but make it private the few times you're going to acutally need privacy.00:08
bodhi_zazenI want people to feel they can come and discuss be a part of team decisions / actions00:08
tronyxhmmm not enough people in here00:08
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: That is what the no-idle policy would allow. Users who have an issue would be able to go there, and work with the council to resolve it. However, once the issue is handled, they are required to /part00:09
Silver_Fox_i felt that when i attended bodhi_zazen00:09
bodhi_zazenWhy should it be closed all the time ? Just because we occasionally need privacy ?00:09
bodhi_zazenIt should be moderated if there is a problem or issue, not cloesd00:09
bodhi_zazenand it is hard to tell sometimes who is involved in an issue00:09
Silver_Fox_is full closure heavy handed?00:09
bodhi_zazenanyone who is interested can pipe in , witnesses if needed to behavior00:10
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: You can usually tell who is directly involved and should be involved in the discussion00:10
bodhi_zazenI think we loose something if the channel is closed00:10
nhandlerThey will usually be the ones coming to the council with the issue00:10
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: The channel would not be closed00:10
Rocket2DMnIt seems like most people are in favor of leaving the channel open00:10
dvz-o/ what channel?00:10
nhandlerIt would actually be more open than it is now00:10
paultagI think the Council channel should be Open. The issue is that we need a transparent leadership00:10
superbennyhonestly, what is really discussed that is so secretive? i feel like the whole point is an open discussion area where people who have something to contribute are able to00:10
paultag+1 superbenny00:10
paultagThe issue is really respect of someone who breaks the rules. We don't want to cause issues with reputation00:11
paultagThe best solution to that is to handle most matters over PM00:11
swoody+1 paultag00:11
paultagIf the issue is at the Council, it is a big issue and the team should be involved00:11
bodhi_zazenThe channel feel closed to me if it is +mz and I am an op =)00:11
nhandlerNobody is saying "secret". All decissions would be made public. But if we are discussing a user's actions, I don't think that non-involved people need to be watching00:11
paultagnhandler, ^00:11
superbennythis is true, but that's where moderation comes in. we have focus groups devoted to IRC, why not let them do their job?00:11
Silver_Fox_are the logs for the council meetings available?00:12
nhandlerpaultag: With the no-idle policy, people who are actively involved in the issue would be able to participate00:12
paultagnhandler, I understand that00:12
nhandlerThe whole idea is to get rid of the people who simply idle in there and watch00:12
paultagnhandler, but if it hits council, it's a team move. Any team member should be allowed to idle00:12
bodhi_zazenwhy do idlers bother you nhandler ?00:12
nhandlerThis would also be more in line with what almost all other Ubuntu councils do00:12
paultagnhandler, we are a small team. We can still involve everyone00:13
superbennynhandler, if its going to be made public anyway, why keep it secret for a couple extra minutes? if something sensitive is being discussed, +m so that only people involved can talk, but eventually, the logs are out there anyway.00:13
superbenny+1, paultag00:13
paultagWe don't need the  MOTU council00:13
paultagthat would hurt us a lot00:13
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Because the users there are watching for entertainment. A good number of them have no interest in working towards a solution00:13
Silver_Fox_unless the logs are edited via snips00:13
nhandlerpaultag: The MC is actually pretty open00:13
bodhi_zazenAh I see00:13
paultagnhandler, I take that back. Whatever councils you talk about then.00:14
swoody-1 on the idlers nhandler. There are a lot of team members who like to see what goes on behind the curtain. Having an open channel for council will show members who are curious just how the Council works, and if they feel that would be something they would like to pursue in the future.00:14
Rocket2DMnIt's an #ubuntu channel - doesn't that mean the logs are posted directly online?00:14
bodhi_zazenWell, I am not sure about that nhandler00:14
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: But for instance, the CC has a private mailing list, so does the TB00:14
nhandler#ubuntu-ops has a no-idle policy00:14
bodhi_zazenI think most of the idlers are interested in leadersip00:14
nhandlerthe RMBs have private lists and irc channels00:14
superbennyediting logs would go against the whole idea of open-source. nothing that we discuss is that life-changing, that it needs to be kept top-secret.00:14
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: If you look at the logs for our last few discussions, that is not the case00:14
bodhi_zazeneither learning by watching or wanting to be a part of the team, I could be wrong00:14
nhandlersuperbenny: Nobody mentioned editing logs00:14
Silver_Fox_are we #ubuntu-ops ?  why do we want to emulate them?00:14
bodhi_zazenand I have never seen anyone take an issue out of the channel and mis use the information00:15
superbennynhandler, <Silver_Fox_> unless the logs are edited via snips00:15
nhandlerSilver_Fox_: We are an Ubuntu Council, so we should be learning from councils like the CC00:15
nhandlersuperbenny: But nobody said that we would be ;)00:15
paultagI disagree. I think we need leadership that fits our model00:15
superbennyfair enough00:15
superbenny+1 paultag00:15
nhandlerpaultag: So if we were discussing your poor behavior, you would be fine with everyone watching?00:16
tronyxi agree with paultag00:16
paultagnhandler, any team member should be able to contribute to the discussion about my poor behavior, yes00:16
Rocket2DMnOk, I think this discussion is wearing out.  Are there written guidelines about how Ubuntu Councils should use their resources? If not, I think we can look at other councils, but we don't need to do what they do - we are capable of figuring out what is best for us specifically00:16
nhandlerpaultag: Contribute is one thing, but should they all be able to sit and watch00:16
paultagnhandler, sure00:16
tronyximho if it were my poor behavior or paultag's behavior and it is impacting the whole team, everyone is already effected so everyone should be aware of the resolution00:16
paultagnhandler, any team member is directly affected by my behavior00:16
superbennynhandler, honestly, thats part of the punishment.00:16
nhandlerpaultag: In that case, I don't think we should have a -council at all00:16
superbennybesides, the logs will be made public anyway00:16
nhandlerJust do it all in the main IRC channel00:16
paultagnhandler, I disagree with that00:16
paultagnhandler, I think the council is a quiet corner to do that in00:17
swoodynhandler:  I believe paultag mentioned about using PM's before. I feel that anything that is not severe enough should be public, and for those things which are too much for a public channel can be expressed via PM00:17
paultag+1 swoody00:17
superbenny+1 swoody00:17
paultagI always handle issues over PM before they hit council00:17
nhandlerswoody: PMs are only for 1 on 1, not a group chat00:17
superbennyright, but why make it a group chat if someone just needs a warning?00:18
nhandlerpaultag: If everyone is idling in there and "participating" it is not any more quiet than the main channel00:18
paultagI say we defer this00:18
bodhi_zazenI think nhandler has a point, but ...00:18
bodhi_zazenonly to a point00:18
swoodynhandler:  well as bodhi_zazen also suggested, maybe that would be the time to use moderation power to make the #council channel more private00:18
paultagOK, we have a lot to talk about. Lets do this later with the whole team00:18
nhandlerswoody: That doesn't make it any more private00:18
paultagthis is not the place to argue, this is the meeting. Let's hit the ML00:18
Rocket2DMnno paultag , lets settle this now00:18
bodhi_zazenI do believe there are times when the channel will need to be closed00:18
nhandlerpaultag: I am ok with that00:18
paultagRocket2DMn, I think we need to talk about it more00:18
Rocket2DMnthis is a team meeting00:18
paultagRocket2DMn, we are ill-prepared for it00:18
nhandlerI have to run to dinner anyway00:18
bodhi_zazenoutside of those times, unless there is a good reason, leave it open would be my 2c00:18
Rocket2DMnalright, whatever00:18
swoody+1 bodhi_zazen00:19
tronyxmay i interject? i never say much during the meetings00:19
Rocket2DMnshall we take off the +mc for now?00:19
bodhi_zazenyes tronyx00:19
* tronyx begins typing00:19
bodhi_zazenno Rocket2DMn00:19
bodhi_zazenI think we need to use the meeting time to discuss these issues00:19
bodhi_zazenwe are all here ;)00:19
bodhi_zazenml == borring00:19
tronyxthere is a lot to be said for the council channel and just who can be in there.  i know this isn't 'our' channel and the CoC applies but for those of you who know me, you know what i am getting at00:19
swoodyheh, +1 bodhi_zazen00:19
paultagbodhi_zazen, it's on the Wiki :P the Meetings are not for arguing about the issue00:19
swoodyit allows us to explore more ideas in a few seconds of real-time chat, that a few dozen emails spread out over days00:20
tronyxsimply put, if you are an asshole, it effects all users in ubuntuforums-beginners.  if your behavior effects the whole team, than you had better be prepared for everyone to know about it00:20
* bodhi_zazen edits the wiki00:20
Silver_Fox_can i make a request on a new topic?  if time allows00:20
tronyxand it may also provide incentive for people to act like adults and part of the communityh00:20
bodhi_zazenyes Silver_Fox_ :)00:20
tronyxlet's take montel for example, i am sure his expulsion was addressed in private, but before there, it effected us all00:20
paultagIt was00:20
paultagI talked in PM a lot00:20
paultagit was only a last resort to involve Council, and then the team00:21
tronyxeventually we all know/knew what happened and that is that.  but it effected everyone00:21
tronyxi think that if someone is going to contribute, be active and be productive, they have just as much of a place on the 'council' as anyone else00:21
bodhi_zazenLet us take a non-binding vote, to see what the consensus is, and move teh discussion to ML00:21
bodhi_zazenthen move to another topic ?00:21
Silver_Fox_sounds good to me bodhi_zazen00:22
superbenny+1 bodhi_zazen00:22
bodhi_zazen[VOTE]Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel00:22
MootBotPlease vote on: Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel.00:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:22
MootBot-1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -100:22
MootBot-1 received from paultag. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -200:22
MootBot-1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -300:22
MootBot-1 received from dvz-. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -400:22
MootBot-1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -500:22
MootBot-1 received from drs305. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -600:22
MootBotPrivate -1 vote received. 0 for, 7 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -700:22
MootBot-1 received from tronyx. 0 for, 8 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -800:23
MootBot-1 received from superbenny. 0 for, 9 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -900:23
MootBot-1 received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 10 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1000:23
bodhi_zazenAny additional votes ?00:23
* bodhi_zazen notes nhandler is probably +100:23
swoodywell I feel that about sums it up right there :)00:24
Silver_Fox_what about rocket?00:24
superbennyagreed, swoody00:24
Rocket2DMni vote privately00:24
MootBotFinal result is 0 for, 10 against. 0 abstained. Total: -1000:24
superbennymore -9 with nhandler00:24
bodhi_zazen[IDEA]No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council00:24
MootBotIDEA received: No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council00:24
bodhi_zazen[ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel00:25
MootBotACTION received: [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel00:25
bodhi_zazenSilver_Fox_: did you have a topic ?00:25
Silver_Fox_minor thing,  more of a request00:26
Silver_Fox_bodhi_zazen, ^00:26
bodhi_zazenOK, go for it ;)00:26
Silver_Fox_I would like to request that agenda items not go up less than 5 minutes prior to meeting starting00:26
Silver_Fox_it doesn't seem organised00:27
Rocket2DMnSilver_Fox_, items are supposed to be on the agenda in advance, but we didnt have many items today00:27
dvz-o/ bodhi_zazen i have a topic but i think it may have to wait..in luie of Silver_Fox_ topic00:27
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC]"Do something"00:27
MootBotNew Topic: "Do something"00:27
swoody+1 Silver_Fox_ although I feel that's more of a personal thing, and someone who has a topic they want to add should just wait to put it on the next meeting's agenda00:28
bodhi_zazenthis is sort of an old topic, from last time00:28
bodhi_zazenpaultag: poke =)00:28
paultagbodhi_zazen, hola00:28
bodhi_zazenthere was a discussion on the council / leadership / assigning tasks to those who need assignments00:28
bodhi_zazensomething like that00:28
paultagYes indeed00:28
bodhi_zazengo paultag =)00:28
* paultag starts00:29
superbennyreally sorry guys, i need to run and make dinner. i might be back by the end of the meeting.00:29
paultagThe idea here is really one from the ( now MIA ) JoshuaRL and myself00:29
paultagWe wanted to create a system, a "pipeline" if you will from the UBT to the wider community. We would have tasks that would help the wider community, and track them with new members, or members who would want to use the system. NOT required, just a helpful structure00:30
paultagAny ideas, questions, concerns>00:30
paultagThis system would work in tandem with the Focus Groups00:31
bodhi_zazenI think it would be a good idea, you willing to maintain such a list ?00:31
Silver_Fox_track them how paultag ?00:31
paultagbodhi_zazen, yes. I am undergoing the task of figuring out how to track them00:31
bodhi_zazenIf so, I would suggest we start it and see how it works out00:31
swoodypaultag:  How would this tracking system be setup? What exactly would you use to list the assingments that need to be done?00:31
paultagbodhi_zazen, We were using LP, but it is not proving fruitful00:31
bodhi_zazenWell, that may be a problem paultag :)00:32
paultagswoody, that is up to discussion by anyone who would like to contribute. I thought it like a bug tracking system00:32
paultagbodhi_zazen, Well, I Have a workaround00:32
bodhi_zazenlinky ?00:32
paultagbodhi_zazen, LP OpenID Auth'd homebrew tracker00:32
paultagbodhi_zazen, It's almost done. I was going to test it00:32
paultagbodhi_zazen, active version is here: http://whube.com00:33
paultagbodhi_zazen, it's not working well yet, and that is outdated.00:33
bodhi_zazenWell, let us see how it goes then00:33
paultagAnyone interested in helping?00:34
bodhi_zazenmay I suggest you start with either a forms thread or wiki page ?00:34
paultagbodhi_zazen, I'll start a Wiki00:34
bodhi_zazenand transition to whube.com when ready ?00:34
paultagbodhi_zazen, Sure. that is just my sandbox for now, perhaps a btdev subdomain down the line?00:34
bodhi_zazenalong these lines, paultag, ...00:34
Silver_Fox_paultag,  i will help00:34
paultagbodhi_zazen, I mean, ufbt*00:34
paultagSilver_Fox_, thank you :)00:34
bodhi_zazenAre there any suggestions on what the team would like to see in terms of leadership ?00:34
Silver_Fox_it is no trouble paultag ,  you know that ;)00:35
dvz-bodhi_zazen: leadership in what capacity and to what topic?00:35
bodhi_zazenyes paultag that domain is open00:35
paultagbodhi_zazen, ok, outstanding :)00:35
paultagbodhi_zazen, also, if I have the floor RE administration, I have a topic00:35
bodhi_zazendvz-: there has been some quite discussions in dark corners about having the leadership of this team 'do more"00:35
bodhi_zazenand I am looking for input / advice00:36
bodhi_zazenif it is on topic paultag , please00:36
paultagajmorris has been AFK for the last months -- Silver_Fox_ has stepped up on the IRC team to be an interm leader. I am looking for team advice on how we should handle a member who dropped off the face00:36
paultagI would like to see Silver_Fox_ take on aj's role, but I don't want to get rid of him without talking to him00:36
bodhi_zazenexactly as you said paultag00:36
bodhi_zazenfind a willing replacement00:36
dvz-paultag: I believe AJ had resigned from his roles and made mention of leaving prior to00:36
nhandlerpaultag: Members who let their membership on LP expire are de-voiced, and are technically not BT members until they show up again00:36
paultagdvz-, OK00:37
bodhi_zazenI would think council discussion / action00:37
paultagnhandler, ok, thank you00:37
Silver_Fox_i am a willing replacement00:37
paultagbodhi_zazen, OK, so then with the team's blessing, Moving Silver_Fox_ to IRC Co-Lead00:37
bodhi_zazenwhat nhandler said00:37
paultagbodhi_zazen, I am requesting it, and Silver_Fox_ is willing00:37
bodhi_zazenI have devoiced a few people in the past few days00:37
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Anyone other than st33med and ajmorris?00:37
bodhi_zazennot to me mean, but rather to keep team / voice membership "up to date" if you will00:38
bodhi_zazenyes nhandler00:38
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?00:38
MootBotPlease vote on:  Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?.00:38
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:38
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:38
MootBot+1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 100:38
MootBot+1 received from dvz-. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 200:38
MootBot+1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 300:38
MootBot+1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 400:38
MootBotAbstention received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 400:39
bodhi_zazenI think FG leads should if at all  possible be team decisions00:39
MootBot+1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 500:39
MootBotPrivate +1 vote received. 6 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 600:39
bodhi_zazenany additional votes ?00:39
MootBot+1 received from TuxPurple. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 700:40
MootBot+1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 800:40
MootBotFinal result is 8 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 800:40
bodhi_zazen[AGREED] Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group00:40
MootBotAGREED received:  Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group00:40
Silver_Fox_thank you everyone00:40
paultagthank you Silver_Fox_ :)00:40
bodhi_zazenI want to mention one thing b4 we move to new members00:41
bodhi_zazenThe YNU FG !!!00:41
bodhi_zazenI am very excited about this FG00:41
Silver_Fox_oh that ;)00:42
bodhi_zazenI was going to name the group immature brats , but YNU seems better00:42
dvz-i like immature brats.00:42
swoody+! dvz-00:42
paultagBut then I would have to join :(00:42
bodhi_zazenthank you to everyone for putting a team together00:42
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Are you fine with people just editing that page, or do you want changes to go through the YNU FG ?00:42
bodhi_zazenIt is a wiki00:43
bodhi_zazenwe can always blacklist their IP or undo changes if we need =)00:43
nhandlerJust making sure, I see a few things I would like to change00:43
dvz-speaking of teams...and before voting, bodhi_zazen - may i bring a last minute topic up for prediscussion?00:43
bodhi_zazensec dvz-00:43
bodhi_zazenthe idea of the YNU FG is to help immature people fit better into first our team and ultimately into the greater Ubuntu Community00:44
bodhi_zazenmany of these people require a little time an patience, but then are awesome00:44
jgoguennhandler: I threw that page together quickly using ESR's ramblings and my experience as references, please do clean it up :)00:44
bodhi_zazenIf not, root them out fast00:44
Silver_Fox_I like the term nurture00:45
bodhi_zazenlike he who shall remain nameless less we awaken his bot army00:45
bodhi_zazenOK dvz- you are up =)00:45
dvz-for IRC trend for the beginners team is currently #ubuntu-beginners(-FG).   we seem to have quite a few people going to -beginners for help questions..and then we redirect them to -beginners-help.   the team is, in fact, like a big fg - so why not create a channel #ubuntu-beginners-team  and use #ubuntu-beginners  as the new -help channel?  i think the current team channel is a tad misleading.00:46
bodhi_zazenAggg !00:47
Silver_Fox_can we not rename #ubuntu-beginners-help00:47
bodhi_zazenI would have to re-do all the access list, 70 something :)00:47
dvz-i first joined #ubuntuforums-beginners because i thought it was a channel for beginners to ask help questions in00:47
bodhi_zazenI am OK with moving, it is not a bad idea00:48
bodhi_zazenon the other hand, I am OK with new users wandering in as well, kind of makes the channel, well, interesting00:48
Rocket2DMn-1 on moving, a few people wandering in isnt bad00:48
Rocket2DMnbesides, they are finding people who know whats up00:48
bodhi_zazenif it is a huge support question, move the discussion to -help ?00:48
swoody+1 bodhi_zazen00:49
dvz-sure, but then why are we telling them to go to a help channel when we can keep the people who are currently in -beginners there and just almost duplicate it in -team...if members are so concerned about redirecting help questions00:49
bodhi_zazenshall we vote on that ?00:49
dvz-i like that idea bodhi_zazen00:49
bodhi_zazenWell dvz-00:49
nhandlerI think it is a good thing that users are landing in the main team channel.00:49
bodhi_zazenshort help questions are fine00:49
nhandlerWe can then point them to the correct location for their questions00:49
paultagI'll BRB. I am voting +000:49
swoodyI feel anyone who may wander into #u-b should be directed to #u-b-h00:50
Rocket2DMnthe same thing happens in every ubuntu channel ive ever been in, people inevitably wander in00:50
bodhi_zazenbut long discussions on iptables or other esoteric questions posting config files to pastebin deserve privacy =)00:50
dvz-wandering is fine...but rather than wandering into a channel you think is a help channel and then being redirected to another channel with less users...i think it's counterproductive at times.00:50
bodhi_zazen+1 dvz-00:51
Silver_Fox_it happened with Kangarooo earlier00:51
bodhi_zazenso if they ask or need support , dish it out ;)00:51
bodhi_zazenif the discussion is getting long, move it00:51
dvz-+1 bodhi_zazen00:51
swoody+1 bodhi_zazen00:51
bodhi_zazenif we get a ton of counter productive traffic we can move00:51
bodhi_zazenmost people do not mind moving to another channel for support, at least in my experience00:52
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] Should we move to -team ?00:52
MootBotPlease vote on:  Should we move to -team ?.00:52
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:52
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:52
MootBot-1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -100:52
MootBotAbstention received from dvz-. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -100:52
MootBot-1 received from Rocket2DMn. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -200:52
bodhi_zazenany more votes ?00:52
MootBot-1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -300:53
MootBot-1 received from Snova. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -400:53
MootBotAbstention received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -400:53
MootBot-1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -500:53
MootBotAbstention received from drs305. 0 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -500:53
MootBot-1 received from jgoguen. 0 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -600:53
bodhi_zazenany more votes ?00:53
MootBotFinal result is 0 for, 6 against. 3 abstained. Total: -600:54
bodhi_zazenshall we do00:54
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC]New Members00:54
MootBotNew Topic: New Members00:54
dvz-i don't know much of him to give much of a rundown00:54
paultagI am here, can we do Wiebelhaus quick?00:54
paultagI need to cook, and I am just about to get up00:54
paultag( sorry for breaking protocol here )00:55
bodhi_zazenyes paultag00:55
bodhi_zazenis Wiebelhaus here ?00:55
paultagWiebelhaus is not here right now, but most of you know him pretty well. I think he is a damn fine member, and worthy of the team :)00:55
jgoguenNot in here00:55
paultagbodhi_zazen, it's been about two meetings he has been up for it00:55
paultagbodhi_zazen, can we do a absentee vote?00:55
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] Wiebelhaus for membership00:56
MootBotPlease vote on:  Wiebelhaus for membership.00:56
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:56
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:56
MootBotAbstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 000:56
MootBot+1 received from dvz-. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 100:56
MootBot+1 received from drs305. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 200:56
MootBot+1 received from paultag. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 300:56
MootBot+1 received from jgoguen. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 400:56
MootBotAbstention received from Silver_Fox_. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 400:56
MootBotPrivate +1 vote received. 5 for, 0 against, 2 have abstained. Count is now 500:56
MootBot+1 received from Snova. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 600:57
bodhi_zazenany additional votes ?00:57
paultagI think that's it00:57
MootBotFinal result is 6 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 600:57
paultagbodhi_zazen, Thank you for making that exception -- and on that note I am off, time too cook :)00:57
bodhi_zazenanyone want to speak / vote on leoquant ?00:58
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=15515700:58
bodhi_zazenSilver_Fox_: you wish to speak ?00:58
bodhi_zazenI know leoquant from the forums00:59
Silver_Fox_bodhi_zazen,  no,  i am willing to vote00:59
bodhi_zazenAh , OK00:59
bodhi_zazenleoquant is an ubuntu member and seems quite knowledgeable, IMO01:00
bodhi_zazenlet us vote, abstain to vote later ;)01:00
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] leoquant for membership01:00
MootBotPlease vote on:  leoquant for membership.01:00
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot01:00
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting01:00
MootBotAbstention received from drs305. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 001:00
MootBotPrivate +1 vote received. 1 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 101:00
MootBot+1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 201:00
MootBot+1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 301:01
MootBot+1 received from Snova. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 401:01
MootBot+1 received from swoody. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 501:01
MootBot+1 received from TuxPurple. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 601:01
bodhi_zazenany additional votes ?01:02
MootBotFinal result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 601:02
bodhi_zazenwe are almost out of time01:02
bodhi_zazenI have a general announcement that should interest most of the team01:02
MootBotLINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/187601:03
bodhi_zazenAny other topics or shall we end the meeting ?01:04
Rocket2DMnWe're over an hour, better end01:04
bodhi_zazenThank you all for coming and your contributions to both the team and Ubuntu01:04
MootBotMeeting finished at 19:05.01:05
Silver_Fox_i wish it was 19:05...not 01:0501:05
superbennyaw shucks i just missed it01:05
Kangarooo!logs > superbenny01:08
ubottusuperbenny, please see my private message01:08
superbennythank your Kangarooo01:12
Kangarooosuperbenny: also use command /topic to see topic . and in topic will be link to wiki with this meetings irc logs. maybe they will be later added but all history of all meeting can be found in wiki.ubuntu.com in correct pages/groups/teams01:14
=== bazhang_ is now known as bazhang
Kangarooohello. now meeting yes ? now its 4.00 in latvia :) im gona go sleep after this02:00
bodhi_zazenshould be02:01
pleia2just gathering the interested parties :)02:02
MootBotMeeting started at 20:03. The chair is cprofitt.02:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]02:03
cprofittWelcome to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project meeting02:03
pleia2thanks for chairing, cprofitt :)02:04
cprofitt[TOPIC] Open Discussion02:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Open Discussion02:04
pleia2ok, we're still stalled on licensing and haven't heard from canonical legal, did we decide to move forward with doctormo's contacts with lawyer people?02:04
cprofittI am not familiar with this...02:05
cprofittdo you mean doctormo has lawyer people or will contact them directly?02:05
pleia223:09 < doctormo> cprofitt, pleia2, greg-g, Vantrax|Work: Is it worth contacting the SFLC given that I already have a contact there?02:05
cprofittthanks... I guess I missed that...02:06
cprofittI am fine with that... but I am concerned with bodhi_zazen being comfortable with things02:07
bodhi_zazenI have decided to remain neutral on licensing issues, so long as it is free, open, and not abused02:08
pleia2bodhi_zazen: I know you had some legal concerns which we want to make sure are address02:08
bodhi_zazenI would rather put my energy into building content, developing the team, etc02:08
* pleia2 nods02:08
cprofittbodhi_zazen, is the issue of CC-BY-SA vs. CC-BY-SA-NC no longer an issue then?02:09
bodhi_zazenI discussed my concerns outside of this team, thank you though pleia202:09
bodhi_zazencprofitt: what has the rest of the team decided ? are we waiting for an opinion from Canonical ?02:09
cprofittNo. Canonical was ok with what ever choice we made02:10
pleia2we pretty much decided CC-BY-SA02:10
cprofittthe rest of the team is settled on CC-BY-SA02:10
cprofittwith no transfer of ownership02:10
bodhi_zazenI do not have any problem with CC-BY-SA02:10
cprofittthen we are set to move forward with that02:11
pleia2great :)02:11
cprofitt[AGREED]license will be CC:BY-SA and authors will retain ownership of copyright02:11
MootBotAGREED received: license will be CC:BY-SA and authors will retain ownership of copyright02:11
pleia2if legal things do come up, it's nice to know we have avenues to get help :)02:12
bodhi_zazenHow is team structure going ?02:12
pleia2so this long stall was not entirely unproductive02:12
bodhi_zazenI saw a few requests to join the team in my in-box02:12
bodhi_zazendid not know how to respond and was spending last night at Myah's birthday :)02:13
pleia2I think we were supposed to add our thoughts to a wiki page and didn't :\02:13
cprofittwe are, at this time, not accepting new members.02:13
bodhi_zazensounds right02:13
cprofittI do not think anyone has added their thoughts on structure02:13
bodhi_zazenooo, why not cprofitt ?02:13
bodhi_zazenre: new members02:13
bodhi_zazenwe should at least invite them to our channel ?02:14
cprofittunder what parameters would we accept them?02:14
cprofittI do not mind doing so...02:14
cprofittVantrax, had wanted to be very selective02:14
cprofittI know we discussed the idea of making a 'beginners' level team02:14
cprofittand then having a 'advanced' or by invite only team02:14
cprofittbut do not think we came to consensus02:14
bodhi_zazenAh, well, I think for now we need to know people wanting to join02:15
bodhi_zazenand work on developing a team structure02:15
* pleia2 nods02:15
bodhi_zazenI would adapt much of the BT structure to this team, but I am not sure if that is what we want02:15
bodhi_zazenseems we need to define roles02:16
bodhi_zazenpeople who develop content02:16
bodhi_zazenpeople who teach02:16
cprofittI agree...02:16
cprofittperhaps we need a UCLP - Board02:16
cprofittUCLP - Instructors02:16
cprofittUCLP - Curriculum02:16
cprofittUCLP - Testers02:17
cprofittor some such02:17
bodhi_zazenwho is interested in developing a team structure ?02:17
cprofittshould we make those teams... I had made some teams similar to that and Vantrax objected02:17
cprofittso I had the team deleted02:17
cprofittforget what it was02:17
bodhi_zazenI suggest those interested discuss it in #ubuntu-learning and start on a wiki page02:18
pleia2bodhi_zazen: +102:18
cprofittthe wiki page is already there02:18
pleia2I forget :x02:18
cprofittbeen there for close to a month now02:18
pleia2right right02:18
bodhi_zazenwell, who is interested in developing a structure then ?02:18
bodhi_zazenI would suggest a small group discuss and develop details and bring it back02:19
pleia2I think cprofitt is on the right track02:19
bodhi_zazenI can do it alone02:19
bodhi_zazenif need be02:19
bodhi_zazenbut I did not want to take that task on without your blessing ;)02:19
cprofittI do not mind coming up with a structure either...02:20
pleia2bodhi_zazen: can you toss something together and then check back in channel in a couple days for input on progress?02:20
pleia2maybe you and cprofitt02:20
cprofittbut I still think we need to either have the board 'vote' on the structure or 'vote' on saying that what we do is 'it'02:20
bodhi_zazenI think that that will work02:20
bodhi_zazen-1 cprofitt02:20
cprofittwe actually have a quorom with just the three of us02:21
cprofittso we can do that tonight02:21
bodhi_zazenI do not think we need to vote on the need for structure, just start developing it02:21
cprofittI agree with that bodhi_zazen02:21
bodhi_zazenonce it is in place -> take comments -> adopt it02:21
cprofittso we develop... the board tweaks02:21
cprofittthen we vote02:21
cprofittI thought you were saying you would just develop it...02:21
cprofittsorry for my misunderstanding02:22
bodhi_zazenLet me work on at least an outline02:22
cprofittsounds good bodhi_zazen02:22
* pleia2 subscribes to that wiki page02:22
bodhi_zazenI need some assistance with the roles on a moodle site02:22
cprofittyou get the ball rolling...02:22
pleia2so I can follow along! :)02:22
cprofittand I will run along side02:22
bodhi_zazenI see Content contributors / theme , students, instructors, and admin as general categories02:23
cprofittnot sure if we have students as a 'group'02:24
cprofittbut other than that it looks good02:24
pleia2I kind of like the idea of an open group too02:24
bodhi_zazenOK, I will work on it02:24
cprofittdo we want an LP team for the board?02:24
bodhi_zazenpleia2: I think the general process would be02:24
bodhi_zazenopen group -> open to all.02:24
pleia2cprofitt: we have one, and I think it's good (admin mailing list, especially)02:25
cprofittwe have one...02:25
bodhi_zazenOnce we get to know people and their interests / strengths they can move to an appropriate group02:25
pleia2yes, you're in it!02:25
cprofittah... yes... we did make that...02:25
* cprofitt shakes head02:25
pleia2cprofitt: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning-board02:25
bodhi_zazenI think there is a consensus, misunderstanding, we are not trying to be exclusive at this point02:26
pleia2bodhi_zazen: right02:26
cprofittyes... I do not want to be exclusive02:26
bodhi_zazenthe idea is to provide structure and start developing team tasks02:26
cprofittI do think in the future there will be some teams similar to bug-control02:26
cprofittthat will be formed... and membership will be based on contribution02:27
cprofittbut not now...02:27
cprofittis that your feeling as well pleia2 ?02:28
cprofittbodhi_zazen, ?02:28
bodhi_zazenI personally like the general idea02:28
pleia2cprofitt: yes02:29
bodhi_zazenOpen membership -> meet & greet -> as long as they are not a mutant they can be a member and contribute as they wish02:29
* dantalizing feels excluded02:29
bodhi_zazenWe then identify strengths and interests and encourage them to join a more specific group02:29
* pleia2 nods02:30
* pleia2 hugs dantalizing02:30
cprofittsorry dantalizing you are indeed a mutant02:30
bodhi_zazenmore of a process, the goal of encouraging involvement rather then idling in the channel02:30
cprofittbut a warm and friendly mutant02:30
bodhi_zazenAGGGG Mutant02:30
cprofitt+1 bodhi_zazen encouraging02:31
cprofittany other topics?02:31
bodhi_zazenif I may02:32
* cprofitt nods02:32
bodhi_zazenAny thoughts on moving the server ?02:32
pleia2I think we should keep it hosted with you for now02:32
cprofittI think both have merits...02:33
pleia2we can develop the site, get a good idea about what we need, if canonical really needs us to move it in the future we'll have a very good idea of precisely what we need from them02:33
bodhi_zazenI like that plan pleia202:33
cprofittbut currently favor leaving it on your server... but want to keep the possibility of moving it to Canonical open02:33
cprofittif we feel we can get the content production to a stable state...02:33
cprofittmoving it does become easier02:33
* pleia2 nods02:33
bodhi_zazenOK, I would like to identify a second person to back me up on sys admin on the server02:34
bodhi_zazenIn the event I am say on vacation for example :)02:34
cprofittI am still too weak in the sys admin foo02:34
pleia2I could help, but I think others volunteered?02:34
cprofittI would nominate Vantrax but he is not here02:34
cprofittso I would nominate pleia2 because she is here02:35
bodhi_zazenyes, I can not recall who volunteered02:35
cprofittI thought Vantrax did02:35
Vantraxi is kinda here02:35
bodhi_zazenwe do not need to decide today02:35
bodhi_zazenbut it is OK if we do02:35
Vantraxits a bad week for me at work, we are deploying new hardware and lab images atm02:35
bodhi_zazenVantrax: would be ideal as he is in a different TZ and that helps with 24 / 7 / 365 coverage02:36
pleia2I agree02:36
Vantraxi dont mind doing it, just need to skill up a little:P Im sure bodhi can help02:37
bodhi_zazenyes, or pleia2 can help as well, or the BT if I am not available02:37
pleia2I can offer guidance too, due to time concerns I prefer offering help rather than being the actual sysadmin anyway ;)02:37
pleia2so one other thought - announcing our project02:38
pleia2do we hold off until after structure is decided?02:38
pleia2I think once that's in place we plow ahead02:38
bodhi_zazenWell, the good news, the server is set up and is for the most part on auto pilot02:38
cprofittI would wait until we have structure... better defined02:38
bodhi_zazen+1 pleia202:39
cprofittperhaps we can announce once it is fairly well laid out...02:39
cprofittand not wait for an official approval02:39
bodhi_zazenI think once we announce we will get an influx, and to be honest we look bad if we can not direct those who need guidance ;)02:39
cprofittbut my hope is that with bodhi_zazen's energy it will not take us that long to get it ironed out02:39
pleia2bodhi_zazen: right :)02:40
Vantraxyay bodhi02:40
bodhi_zazenHave you all seen doctormo's new venture ?02:40
MootBotLINK received:  http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/video-blog-entry-admin-introduction/02:41
pleia2yeah, very cool stuff :)02:41
pleia2I think we'll be doing a similar thing here in Philly02:41
Vantraxalso very good for our project02:41
pleia2actually an extension of our lug, teamed up with our loco02:41
pleia2ok, anything else on the table?02:42
* cprofitt nods to bodhi_zazen 02:43
bodhi_zazenI know we are a renegade band, but ...02:43
bodhi_zazenI think we might be able to draw from the BT02:44
Vantraxwere renegades?02:44
* Vantrax thinks its time to get some tats02:44
bodhi_zazenI have not really discussed it with the BT much02:44
cprofittI think we can draw from BT and other teams...02:44
bodhi_zazenjust a thought02:44
pleia2Vantrax: haha02:44
pleia2bodhi_zazen: yeah, once we get things announced I have some ideas for teams that can help (ubuntu-women for one, I know there are several women involved there who are interested in education)02:45
VantraxI think BT will be a resource we draw on, but also the wiki team/doc team, motu etc02:45
VantraxBT is just one you have pull over:P02:45
bodhi_zazenindeed cprofitt , but the BT has really grown and they are so big they are getting , well, bored :)02:45
cprofittI think Bug Control as well.02:45
cprofittare you saying that BT can get involved -- as it already is -- or that you want to draw structure from it?02:46
pleia2yeah, we have contacts on the main page of our wiki who I've already contacted02:46
cprofittI was still thinking along the lines of structure02:46
bodhi_zazenWe should work on establishing clear and consistent contacts with those teams as well02:46
bodhi_zazenpleia2: I think you were on that ?02:46
bodhi_zazenhow is that going ?02:46
pleia2bodhi_zazen: yep, I've contacted several teams and they're ready when we are for producing content02:47
bodhi_zazenthanks for the update pleia202:47
pleia2so once we have structure and themed site, we will have folks who need logins for development of courses02:47
bodhi_zazendo you have a contact list somewhere that I (and perhaps others) might be able to reference if needed ?02:47
bodhi_zazenfor contact people ?02:47
pleia2it's on the main page of our wiki02:47
pleia2"Affiliates & Key People"02:48
bodhi_zazenAnyone see our test site recently ?02:49
MootBotLINK received:  http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/02:49
cprofittit is looking good...02:49
cprofittjust need to get the menus redone and the mouse over worked out...02:49
cprofittVantrax, showed us this last week02:49
bodhi_zazenI believe we have Vantrax to thank for that ?02:49
Vantraxmenu's and links acutally02:50
Vantraxbut thats all easy stuff02:50
Vantraxwe just need to decide what we want there02:50
Vantraxthe hard bit was redoing graphics:P02:50
Vantraxand formatting02:50
Vantraxdoctormo is going to be helping work on finishing it up too02:51
Vantraxi should have enough time to completely finish it this weekend02:51
pleia2great :)02:51
* cprofitt nine minute check02:52
bodhi_zazenany problems with the test server ?02:52
Vantraxnot that I know of02:52
VantraxIve been trying to catch elmo to talk about what he was querying about the other day too02:53
Vantraxhes hard to catch...02:53
bodhi_zazenk thanks :)02:53
Vantraxnp bodhi_zazen02:53
Vantraxalso bodhi_zazen your nominated for CC02:54
bodhi_zazenYou have no idea how shocked I was to learn that Vantrax02:55
bodhi_zazenI wonder who nominated me ?02:55
bodhi_zazenI understand that there are some other well qualified candidated02:56
cprofittbodhi_zazen, who?02:56
bodhi_zazen*cough* pleia2 *cough*02:56
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about Vantrax02:57
cprofittwell congrats -- it is well deserved and you have my support02:57
bodhi_zazenVantrax: Careful with that e-mail02:57
cprofittis this something we can be present for... or vote for...?02:57
pleia2yeah Vantrax nominated both bodhi_zazen and myself02:57
pleia2cprofitt: it'll be a vote02:57
pleia2all ubuntu members can vote02:58
bodhi_zazencprofitt: no, pleia2 did not nominate me , pleia2 was nominated for the CC02:58
cprofittwell... you both have my support...02:58
bodhi_zazenby yet another infamous email from you know who02:58
cprofittI feel I am missing something...02:58
cprofittshall we end the meeting now?02:58
pleia2cprofitt: yes, I think so02:59
MootBotMeeting finished at 20:59.02:59
bodhi_zazenthank you cprofitt02:59
bodhi_zazenpleia2: gave me that link, lol02:59
cprofitthave a good night all03:00
=== mdz_ is now known as mdz
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
=== ember_ is now known as ember
=== sc is now known as sbc
=== fader|away is now known as fader_
=== beuno_ is now known as beuno
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== clive is now known as Guest92023
MootBotMeeting started at 09:59. The chair is robbiew.15:59
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:59
robbiewmvo: evand: Keybuk: here?16:01
robbiewslangasek: ^?16:01
evandrobbiew: ja16:01
Keybukrobbiew: yup, I'm distracted by my boss e-mailing me16:01
robbiewheh...because your boss was distracted by an employee irc'ing him ;)16:02
robbiew[TOPIC] i486/i586  for Karmic16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  i486/i586  for Karmic16:02
robbiewso...what's going on with this? Keybuk?16:03
Keybukso, I've completed the tests16:03
* mvo waves16:03
dokoas there is no difference because we tune for generic anyway ... we can go forward16:03
Keybukbasically, there's a big difference between -march=i486 and -march=i58616:04
Keybukbecause those on their own imply -mtune=i486 and -mtune=i586 respectively16:04
Keybukbut we don't build that way16:04
Keybukwe build (currently) -march=i486 -mtune=generic16:04
Keybukand we tested against -march=i586 -mtune=generic16:04
Keybukthe *only* difference between these sets of options is the enablement of one additional instruction16:04
Keybuk-mtune=generic is basically "Assume I have a 686"16:05
Keybukso there's no performance benefit to -march=i58616:05
Keybukthe separate question then is whether there's a sanity benefit16:05
Keybukor a support benefit16:05
Keybukwhat do people think?16:07
liwis there a performance penalty? is there a size difference?16:07
Keybuknope, the only difference is you get an extra instruction16:07
Keybuk"compare and exchange 8 bytes"16:07
Keybukthat might give some performance benefit maybe16:07
slangasekif the only difference is a single instruction, I can't see how it matters from a support or sanity POV16:08
liw(might have mattered if it had been the dwim instruction)16:08
robbiewI agree...not really worth the effort IMO16:08
dokowell, lets change and use it for marketing16:08
Keybukfwiw. the only thing that -march=i686 enables is cmov16:09
Keybukeverything else is -mtune16:09
Keybuk-mtune=core2 does change things compared to -mtune=generic16:09
doko-mtune=core2 was proposed for lpia in the past16:10
robbiewis it possible that more benefits from i586 will come in the future?..making it a good idea to move now?16:10
dokobut then again, it would require our build machines and live CD builds to support this16:10
cjwatsonseems sort of unlikely that i586 would change a whole lot16:10
dokorobbiew: doubtful16:10
Keybukrobbiew: from what I understand, nobody even cares about i586 now16:10
Keybukif there's a chance that staying on i486 would incur regressions16:11
Keybukthen there's probably just as an equal chance that staying on i586 would too16:11
Keybuksince gcc's i386 port is basically assuming 686 these days16:11
robbiewso then I think our plan of action is clear...don't change16:11
Keybukit wasn't a wasted effort16:12
robbiewany objections?16:12
Keybukwe proved that gcc 4.4 produces much faster executables16:12
robbiewKeybuk: agree16:12
Keybukso that's clearly a win ;)16:12
Keybukand we learned a lot about what -march and -mtune actually do16:12
cjwatsonshould we check some time before beta that we've actually rebuilt everything important with 4.4 over the course of the cycle?16:13
Keybukcjwatson: how would we tell?16:13
cjwatsonobviously the natural course of events will do that for most things but there are some packages that rarely change16:13
cjwatsonKeybuk: whether the package has the same versions in jaunty and karmic16:13
dokoKeybuk: by date of upload16:13
cjwatsonthat would be a decent first approximation16:13
Keybuksounds like a sensible idea16:13
cjwatsonand very easy to implement16:13
Keybukfwiw. I'd be vaguely interested in comparing -march=i486/-mtune=generic against -march=i486/-mtune=core2 to see if that makes a difference, but that's obviously $somemorework16:14
dokoKeybuk: in this case, maybe we should start thinking about not just -mtune, but sse2 math as well16:15
slangaseksse2 math rules out a whole swath of processors16:17
cjwatson-mtune=core2 is presumably not a compatibility break, just pipelining changes and the like?16:17
Keybukcjwatson: right16:17
cjwatson(in general I'm assuming that nobody has broken the assumption that -mtune doesn't break compatibility with older processors)16:17
Keybukcjwatson: given the things it fiddles with, it does not appear to16:18
dokoyes, but at some point we'll move forward with -march as well. when testing -mtune=core2, we should test on non core2 hw as well.16:18
* robbiew agrees16:18
Keybukdoko: I couldn't find the SSE-related options16:19
dokoKeybuk: -mfpmath=* -msse*16:20
Keybukdoko: ah, no I just found it16:20
Keybukalso implied by -march I see16:21
robbiewdoes the SSE stuff break compatibility for older archs?16:21
dokowe could use the lpia arch for experiments ...16:23
* doko hides16:23
Keybukdoko: could I get you to make a gcc with -mtune=core2 and put that in a PPA, and I'll get adam to build the archive snapshot based off that16:23
* robbiew reminds folks that doko is on OEM this cycle ;)16:23
dokoKeybuk: done16:23
liwis there a way to know if a binary uses sse instructions? could we run such executables under qemu if the host cpu doesn't support sse2? /me runs far, far away and hides really, really well16:23
robbiewso be careful on expectations16:23
Keybukliw: we do that for libraries already16:24
Keybukanyway, that's it for my topic ;)16:24
liwKeybuk, we run libraries under qmeu?16:24
Keybukliw: we have alternate versions installed16:25
robbiew[TOPIC] Karmic Alpha 3 deliverables16:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Karmic Alpha 3 deliverables16:25
dokoKeybuk: hmm, I currently don't see yet that -mfpmath=sse is implied by -march16:26
robbiewevand: usb-creator for windows still good?16:26
evandrobbiew: ja16:26
* robbiew can make davidm a little happier :)16:26
Keybuk      {"core2", PROCESSOR_CORE2, (PTA_64BIT16:27
Keybuk                                  | PTA_MMX | PTA_SSE | PTA_SSE2 | PTA_SSE316:27
Keybuk                                  | PTA_SSSE316:27
Keybuk                                  | PTA_CX16)},16:27
robbiewcjwatson: Server Installer improvements still good for Alpha 3?16:27
Keybukcjwatson: "teleport capable" ?! :p16:27
cjwatsonrobbiew: online help done, LVM config improvements committed though not uploaded, RAID config improvements nearly done (current object of blood sweat tears), crypto config improvements to come but I have a pattern to follow now16:28
cjwatsonso I think that's still on track16:28
robbiewok..sounds good to me, thanks :)16:28
cjwatson(I want to get all the config improvements done and upload them at once, otherwise the intermediate state is going to be really confusing for people)16:28
robbiew[TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue16:29
MootBotNew Topic:  Sponsorship Queue16:29
mterryrobbiew, rsyslog is going through MIR, there was a snag, I'm looking into it16:29
dokoKeybuk: imo still uses 387 math by default, will check later ...16:29
robbiewmterry: ok..thnx16:29
robbiewI sent the report...so folks should know where they stand16:30
robbiewKeybuk..ah hem...lol16:31
Keybukrobbiew: I sponsored the same amount as the majority of the kernel team ;)16:31
Keybuknot to mention the majority of the community team16:31
robbiewas a team..I'm not at all concerned with our level of sponsorship16:32
cjwatsonmajority of community team don't have upload rights, I ought to note ;)16:32
robbiew[TOPIC] Objectives16:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Objectives16:32
robbiewthe PDR tool is apparently broken (surprise!)16:32
robbiewnigelp is checking into it...but you can send them to me via email16:33
slangasekemail> drat, I was hoping for an extension :)16:33
robbiewit's already almost half way through the cycle16:34
slangasekwhat better way to set your objectives than by documenting what you've already done16:34
robbiew[TOPIC] Good news16:35
MootBotNew Topic:  Good news16:35
robbiewHardy/Jaunty are LSB 4.0 compliant16:35
Keybukrobbiew: I released Upstart 0.6.016:35
mvokernel-crashdump may make it for alpha-3 (depends on if the new apport gets uploaded before or not)16:35
cjwatsonmterry landed the oem-config/ubiquity merge16:35
mterryoh yeah!  rock on me16:36
dokoopenjdk-6 certification mail finally sent16:36
robbiewmvo: cool!16:37
robbiewmterry: suhweet!16:37
robbiewand big "hell yeah" for doko! :P16:37
robbiewKeybuk gets a "yay!" lol16:37
cjwatson... furthermore, people's systems largely still seem to boot with upstart 0.6.0 ;-)16:38
Keybuk"largely"? :)16:38
robbiewoh...I guess Good News for Keybuk is that I got one of two Mini 10vs for him16:38
robbiewIce Blue...ooooo16:38
Keybukrobbiew: that's not a computer game ;)16:39
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB16:40
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB16:40
robbiewanyone else have stuff ?16:40
robbiewgoing once....16:40
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:41.16:41
robbiewthanks! :)16:41
dokorobbiew, cjwatson: would you mind if I just upload eglibc-2.9 and some archive admin accepts it by chance?16:41
pedro_hola folks!17:58
* pedro_ hugs the qa team17:58
henohey folks17:59
* fader_ waves.18:00
henook, let's start18:01
MootBotMeeting started at 12:02. The chair is heno.18:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:02
henowe have various people back from travels and sprinting today18:02
henowelcome back pedro_, ara, eeejay, cr3, fader_18:02
araheno, thanks!18:03
* fader_ waves again :)18:03
eeejaythank you18:03
henoara: I hear your GCDS presentation went well!18:03
araheno, yes, people didn't fall asleep, at least :D18:04
henoand pedro_ gave some bugsquad talks I understand18:04
henoI think Ubuntu QA was well represented :)18:05
pedro_heno: yeap one at the Guadec and other at the Guadec-ES ;-)18:05
henolet's jump in:18:05
heno[TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro18:05
MootBotNew Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro18:05
pedro_I don't have highlights from previous weeks but...18:05
heno(from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings)18:06
pedro_tomorrow, yes tomorrow we're celebrating a hug day based on synaptic18:06
=== clive is now known as Guest37118
pedro_the product is a *bit* untidy right now18:06
pedro_we hope for the end of the hug day to have everything in a much better shape18:07
henosounds good!18:07
pedro_as you see some people started to work already, so if you have a few minutes during the day, please help us, mvo will give you an ice cream at next uds ;-)18:08
henohey mvo :)18:08
mvohey heno18:08
mvomuch ice cream!18:08
bdmurrayice cream in November?18:08
henowhile we have mvo here should we mention the package testing spec?18:09
davmor2bdmurray: it might be australia then you wouldn't mind :)18:09
henofader_, sbeattie ^18:09
fader_heno: From my perspective I think we are done with the qa package testing spec -- conflictchecker is running and producing results18:09
henoI understand conflict checker is running and it's ready for phase 218:10
fader_I believe at this point we can hand it off for more development18:10
sbeattieyes, output is at http://conflictchecker.ubuntu.com18:11
* mvo hugs sbeattie for making it work again18:11
henoOK, we'll let the foundations team work on it for a while18:11
henoI guess QA will end up running it in the end though18:11
heno[TOPIC] 8.04.3 testing status18:12
henoserver still has some missing tests18:12
sbeattieas davmor said, isos have been tested. I did a sanity dapper->hardy upgrade test.18:12
henodo we worry about those?18:13
fader_We've also seen pretty good results in the automated testing.  No failures yet, though some machines weren't tested.  I'm going through those and kicking off installs right now.18:13
sbeattietwo are jeos which didn't get respun18:13
henofader_: What did you say the status of ESX 8.04 testing was?18:13
davmor2heno: I think they weren't available options in hardy but are in latter versions18:13
fader_heno: We got a successful test on VMWare 32-bit.  I'm also going to run the test on 64-bit, both single and dual-proc machines.18:14
sbeattiedavmor2: hrm, tomcat wasn't, but you should still be able to raid and crypted lvm, iirc.18:14
fader_(I'm having some issues getting to the vmware environment right now so hopefully they Just Work.  Otherwise it will take me a while to troubleshoot.)18:14
henook, thanks18:14
davmor2sbeattie: I leave server to the server team :)18:14
sbeattiedavmor2: heh18:15
sbeattieoh right, virtualization host was another tasksel option that got added post hardy18:15
davmor2I just know it has more tests now than it did when hardy was out :)18:15
henothat's the end of the agenda18:16
henoany other topics?18:16
sbeattiethe remaining SRU for hardy is bug 32887418:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 328874 in samba "getent group crashes winbindd on domain controller" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32887418:16
davmor2I've been testing empathy as it is on todays cd18:16
davmor2I encourage everyone else to also it has faults :)18:17
sbeattieI've spent a large amount of time trying to setup an environment to reproduce it, but haven't been successful.18:17
bdmurraysbeattie: it's been tested thoroughly in a later release though right?18:17
pedro_davmor2: would be nice if you could test the msn support while using empathy, most of complains from users are coming from that side18:17
davmor2pedro_: biggest is the lack of file sharing from what I see18:18
davmor22.27.4 got released today and has some major fixes in18:18
sbeattiebdmurray: the later versions are significantly different, upstream okayed the fix for hardy, but didn't release a fix for it themselves, having moved on to newer code.18:19
bdmurraysbeattie: I've read slangasek's comments now and I'm squared away18:19
davmor2so it would be nice to get that version on the cd or ppa so we can see what's been fixed18:19
sbeattieOne last SRU item: thanks to  Aitor Moreno, ilya-almametov, Toby Collett, Kenyon Ralph, Jisakiel, Alex Muntada, pablomme, Miklos Juhasz, Garry Dolley, exe, and Lex Ross for testing SRUs this week.18:19
* heno makes note to add the regular SRU topic back in - not sure why that fell off18:21
henowhile I'm at it: bdmurray: any news on bug-control?18:21
bdmurrayYes, we've had one new member approved Bryan McLellan who is interested in server packages.  He'd applied a bit ago and his application was overlooked.18:22
henogreat, we should hook him up with a mentor on the server team18:24
=== Moot2 is now known as MootBot
henoany other business?18:25
aradaily testing?18:25
henocr3 has it on his todo list to deploy, but the metrics based attachment is ahead on the list18:26
henoI believe checkbox-cert needs some adjustments to run as user18:27
henocr3: correct?18:27
cr3heno: yep18:27
cr3ara: I believe I have already informed you about this in #ubuntu-testing, did you want to ask anything else about daily testing?18:28
aracr3, no, nothing really, just to know what were ahead18:28
henocr3: where are we on opening some cert pages to the public18:29
henofader_ would like some disk views at least for the release meeting18:29
henocr3: is it a fairly simple change?18:29
cr3heno: I haven't touched code in over a week, I feel like I've been on vacation and lost track of when things will be deployed18:29
henoThe Montreal test lab has moved house this week18:30
henofor everyone's info18:30
henoso lots of packing and un-packing for cr3 :)18:30
cr3heno: it is the ramifications of having some public pages potentially contain links to private pages which is where the complexity lies.18:31
cr3heno: technically speaking, opening up pages is just a matter of changing the acl's in the model and view layers which is rather trivial18:31
henofader_: can start by distributing screenshots :)18:32
fader_heno: roger wilco :)18:32
henoI think we're done18:32
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:32.18:32
davmor2cr3: can you not just lose the links on the public one and only have them visible on the canonical version?18:32
henothanks everyone!18:32
=== boshhead_ is now known as boshhead
=== dharman_ is now known as dharman
=== ajmitch_ is now known as ajmitch
=== RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAx
=== fader_ is now known as fader|away

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!