[00:00] looks like you are up nhandler [00:00] A while ago, we decided to make #ubuntu-beginners-council +mz [00:01] This means that only voiced users can talk, and if you are unvoiced, only OPs can see what you say [00:01] indeed [00:01] This also results in non-voiced users who idle in there being unable to change their nicks [00:01] * bodhi_zazen recalls being over ruled on that one =) [00:01] * Rocket2DMn wasnt there for that one [00:01] Personally, I think +mz is not the best solution [00:02] I personally think we should make the channel invite only [00:02] well, unless the rest of the team wants to reconsider nhandler [00:02] that makes the vote [00:02] 2 against [00:02] and 100 for =) [00:03] I'm confused, how steep was the vote last time? [00:03] I think the channel should be open all the time [00:03] bodhi_zazen: Several BT members have complained over the last few weeks about being unable to change their nick if they idle there [00:03] +1 nhandler [00:03] and we should +mz only for official business / meetings, if at all [00:03] bodhi_zazen: I disagree. Why should our discussions about other members be open to the public? [00:03] +1 bodhi_zazen === asac_ is now known as asac [00:03] Should anybody be idling in there other than counci lmembers? [00:03] Most other councils, the RMBs included have secret IRC channels and mailing lists that they use [00:03] Rocket2DMn: IMO, no [00:04] why should we have a closed channel at all =) [00:04] I like open [00:04] +1 bodhi_zazen :) [00:04] I don't think the channel should be closed, I just don't think people should be idling in there [00:04] bodhi_zazen: Because one of our main purposes is to deal with user conflicts, which by nature should be done privately [00:04] i have sat in on a council meeting. i didn't say anything though it was nice to be there. [00:04] Rocket2DMn: We could implement a policy similar to #ubuntu-ops, which is open, but there is a strict no idle policy [00:05] You can go there to report an issue, but once the issue has been addressed, you are required to part [00:05] I think the channel should be open, and closed as needed, which IMO is rare if at all [00:05] bodhi_zazen: What are your feelings about a no-idle policy? [00:06] I feel I will be over ruled =) [00:06] That would allow people to report issues, but would avoid turning the issues into a "show" [00:06] Whatever you all wish is OK with me [00:06] Any other opinions on a no-idle policy? [00:06] I think we can manage most of the issues via moderation [00:07] ask people to leave if needed [00:07] or change teh channel to +m or what not if needed [00:07] agreed, bodhi_zazen [00:07] both options sounds ok to me [00:07] bodhi_zazen: What is your reasoning behind wanting people to idle in the -council channel? [00:08] free as in freedom [00:08] I agree bodhi_zazen. It doesn't seem like there's been enough 'wild action' in there to require it be closed all the time. I feel a nice open channel will be useful, but make it private the few times you're going to acutally need privacy. [00:08] I want people to feel they can come and discuss be a part of team decisions / actions [00:08] hmmm not enough people in here [00:09] hehe [00:09] bodhi_zazen: That is what the no-idle policy would allow. Users who have an issue would be able to go there, and work with the council to resolve it. However, once the issue is handled, they are required to /part [00:09] i felt that when i attended bodhi_zazen [00:09] Why should it be closed all the time ? Just because we occasionally need privacy ? [00:09] It should be moderated if there is a problem or issue, not cloesd [00:09] and it is hard to tell sometimes who is involved in an issue [00:09] is full closure heavy handed? [00:10] anyone who is interested can pipe in , witnesses if needed to behavior [00:10] bodhi_zazen: You can usually tell who is directly involved and should be involved in the discussion [00:10] I think we loose something if the channel is closed [00:10] They will usually be the ones coming to the council with the issue [00:10] bodhi_zazen: The channel would not be closed [00:10] It seems like most people are in favor of leaving the channel open [00:10] o/ what channel? [00:10] It would actually be more open than it is now [00:10] #ubuntu-beginners-council [00:10] I think the Council channel should be Open. The issue is that we need a transparent leadership [00:10] honestly, what is really discussed that is so secretive? i feel like the whole point is an open discussion area where people who have something to contribute are able to [00:10] +1 superbenny [00:11] The issue is really respect of someone who breaks the rules. We don't want to cause issues with reputation [00:11] The best solution to that is to handle most matters over PM [00:11] +1 paultag [00:11] If the issue is at the Council, it is a big issue and the team should be involved [00:11] The channel feel closed to me if it is +mz and I am an op =) [00:11] Nobody is saying "secret". All decissions would be made public. But if we are discussing a user's actions, I don't think that non-involved people need to be watching [00:11] nhandler, ^ [00:11] this is true, but that's where moderation comes in. we have focus groups devoted to IRC, why not let them do their job? [00:12] are the logs for the council meetings available? [00:12] paultag: With the no-idle policy, people who are actively involved in the issue would be able to participate [00:12] nhandler, I understand that [00:12] The whole idea is to get rid of the people who simply idle in there and watch [00:12] nhandler, but if it hits council, it's a team move. Any team member should be allowed to idle [00:12] why do idlers bother you nhandler ? [00:12] This would also be more in line with what almost all other Ubuntu councils do [00:13] nhandler, we are a small team. We can still involve everyone [00:13] nhandler, if its going to be made public anyway, why keep it secret for a couple extra minutes? if something sensitive is being discussed, +m so that only people involved can talk, but eventually, the logs are out there anyway. [00:13] +1, paultag [00:13] We don't need the MOTU council [00:13] that would hurt us a lot [00:13] bodhi_zazen: Because the users there are watching for entertainment. A good number of them have no interest in working towards a solution [00:13] unless the logs are edited via snips [00:13] paultag: The MC is actually pretty open [00:13] Ah I see [00:14] nhandler, I take that back. Whatever councils you talk about then. [00:14] -1 on the idlers nhandler. There are a lot of team members who like to see what goes on behind the curtain. Having an open channel for council will show members who are curious just how the Council works, and if they feel that would be something they would like to pursue in the future. [00:14] It's an #ubuntu channel - doesn't that mean the logs are posted directly online? [00:14] Well, I am not sure about that nhandler [00:14] bodhi_zazen: But for instance, the CC has a private mailing list, so does the TB [00:14] #ubuntu-ops has a no-idle policy [00:14] I think most of the idlers are interested in leadersip [00:14] the RMBs have private lists and irc channels [00:14] editing logs would go against the whole idea of open-source. nothing that we discuss is that life-changing, that it needs to be kept top-secret. [00:14] bodhi_zazen: If you look at the logs for our last few discussions, that is not the case [00:14] either learning by watching or wanting to be a part of the team, I could be wrong [00:14] superbenny: Nobody mentioned editing logs [00:14] are we #ubuntu-ops ? why do we want to emulate them? [00:15] and I have never seen anyone take an issue out of the channel and mis use the information [00:15] nhandler, unless the logs are edited via snips [00:15] Silver_Fox_: We are an Ubuntu Council, so we should be learning from councils like the CC [00:15] superbenny: But nobody said that we would be ;) [00:15] I disagree. I think we need leadership that fits our model [00:15] fair enough [00:15] +1 paultag [00:16] paultag: So if we were discussing your poor behavior, you would be fine with everyone watching? [00:16] i agree with paultag [00:16] nhandler, any team member should be able to contribute to the discussion about my poor behavior, yes [00:16] Ok, I think this discussion is wearing out. Are there written guidelines about how Ubuntu Councils should use their resources? If not, I think we can look at other councils, but we don't need to do what they do - we are capable of figuring out what is best for us specifically [00:16] paultag: Contribute is one thing, but should they all be able to sit and watch [00:16] nhandler, sure [00:16] imho if it were my poor behavior or paultag's behavior and it is impacting the whole team, everyone is already effected so everyone should be aware of the resolution [00:16] nhandler, any team member is directly affected by my behavior [00:16] nhandler, honestly, thats part of the punishment. [00:16] paultag: In that case, I don't think we should have a -council at all [00:16] besides, the logs will be made public anyway [00:16] Just do it all in the main IRC channel [00:16] nhandler, I disagree with that [00:17] nhandler, I think the council is a quiet corner to do that in [00:17] nhandler: I believe paultag mentioned about using PM's before. I feel that anything that is not severe enough should be public, and for those things which are too much for a public channel can be expressed via PM [00:17] +1 swoody [00:17] +1 swoody [00:17] I always handle issues over PM before they hit council [00:17] swoody: PMs are only for 1 on 1, not a group chat [00:18] right, but why make it a group chat if someone just needs a warning? [00:18] paultag: If everyone is idling in there and "participating" it is not any more quiet than the main channel [00:18] I say we defer this [00:18] I think nhandler has a point, but ... [00:18] only to a point [00:18] nhandler: well as bodhi_zazen also suggested, maybe that would be the time to use moderation power to make the #council channel more private [00:18] OK, we have a lot to talk about. Lets do this later with the whole team [00:18] swoody: That doesn't make it any more private [00:18] this is not the place to argue, this is the meeting. Let's hit the ML [00:18] no paultag , lets settle this now [00:18] I do believe there are times when the channel will need to be closed [00:18] paultag: I am ok with that [00:18] Rocket2DMn, I think we need to talk about it more [00:18] this is a team meeting [00:18] Rocket2DMn, we are ill-prepared for it [00:18] I have to run to dinner anyway [00:18] outside of those times, unless there is a good reason, leave it open would be my 2c [00:18] alright, whatever [00:19] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:19] may i interject? i never say much during the meetings [00:19] shall we take off the +mc for now? [00:19] yes tronyx [00:19] * tronyx begins typing [00:19] no Rocket2DMn [00:19] I think we need to use the meeting time to discuss these issues [00:19] we are all here ;) [00:19] ml == borring [00:19] there is a lot to be said for the council channel and just who can be in there. i know this isn't 'our' channel and the CoC applies but for those of you who know me, you know what i am getting at [00:19] heh, +1 bodhi_zazen [00:19] bodhi_zazen, it's on the Wiki :P the Meetings are not for arguing about the issue [00:20] it allows us to explore more ideas in a few seconds of real-time chat, that a few dozen emails spread out over days [00:20] simply put, if you are an asshole, it effects all users in ubuntuforums-beginners. if your behavior effects the whole team, than you had better be prepared for everyone to know about it [00:20] * bodhi_zazen edits the wiki [00:20] can i make a request on a new topic? if time allows [00:20] and it may also provide incentive for people to act like adults and part of the communityh [00:20] yes Silver_Fox_ :) [00:20] let's take montel for example, i am sure his expulsion was addressed in private, but before there, it effected us all [00:20] It was [00:20] I talked in PM a lot [00:21] it was only a last resort to involve Council, and then the team [00:21] eventually we all know/knew what happened and that is that. but it effected everyone [00:21] i think that if someone is going to contribute, be active and be productive, they have just as much of a place on the 'council' as anyone else [00:21] Let us take a non-binding vote, to see what the consensus is, and move teh discussion to ML [00:21] then move to another topic ? [00:22] +1 [00:22] sounds good to me bodhi_zazen [00:22] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:22] [VOTE]Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel [00:22] Please vote on: Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel. [00:22] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:22] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from paultag. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3 [00:22] -1 received from dvz-. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6 [00:22] Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 7 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -7 [00:23] -1 [00:23] -1 [00:23] -1 [00:23] -1 received from tronyx. 0 for, 8 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -8 [00:23] -1 received from superbenny. 0 for, 9 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -9 [00:23] -1 received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 10 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -10 [00:23] Any additional votes ? [00:23] * bodhi_zazen notes nhandler is probably +1 [00:24] well I feel that about sums it up right there :) [00:24] what about rocket? [00:24] agreed, swoody [00:24] i vote privately [00:24] hehe [00:24] [ENDVOTE] [00:24] Final result is 0 for, 10 against. 0 abstained. Total: -10 [00:24] more -9 with nhandler [00:24] [IDEA]No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council [00:24] IDEA received: No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council [00:25] [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel [00:25] ACTION received: [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel [00:25] Silver_Fox_: did you have a topic ? [00:26] minor thing, more of a request [00:26] bodhi_zazen, ^ [00:26] OK, go for it ;) [00:26] I would like to request that agenda items not go up less than 5 minutes prior to meeting starting [00:27] it doesn't seem organised [00:27] indeed [00:27] Silver_Fox_, items are supposed to be on the agenda in advance, but we didnt have many items today [00:27] o/ bodhi_zazen i have a topic but i think it may have to wait..in luie of Silver_Fox_ topic [00:27] lol [00:27] [TOPIC]"Do something" [00:27] New Topic: "Do something" [00:28] +1 Silver_Fox_ although I feel that's more of a personal thing, and someone who has a topic they want to add should just wait to put it on the next meeting's agenda [00:28] this is sort of an old topic, from last time [00:28] paultag: poke =) [00:28] bodhi_zazen, hola [00:28] there was a discussion on the council / leadership / assigning tasks to those who need assignments [00:28] something like that [00:28] Yes indeed [00:28] go paultag =) [00:29] * paultag starts [00:29] really sorry guys, i need to run and make dinner. i might be back by the end of the meeting. [00:29] The idea here is really one from the ( now MIA ) JoshuaRL and myself [00:30] We wanted to create a system, a "pipeline" if you will from the UBT to the wider community. We would have tasks that would help the wider community, and track them with new members, or members who would want to use the system. NOT required, just a helpful structure [00:30] Any ideas, questions, concerns> [00:30] s/>/?/ [00:31] This system would work in tandem with the Focus Groups [00:31] I think it would be a good idea, you willing to maintain such a list ? [00:31] track them how paultag ? [00:31] bodhi_zazen, yes. I am undergoing the task of figuring out how to track them [00:31] If so, I would suggest we start it and see how it works out [00:31] paultag: How would this tracking system be setup? What exactly would you use to list the assingments that need to be done? [00:31] bodhi_zazen, We were using LP, but it is not proving fruitful [00:32] Well, that may be a problem paultag :) [00:32] swoody, that is up to discussion by anyone who would like to contribute. I thought it like a bug tracking system [00:32] bodhi_zazen, Well, I Have a workaround [00:32] linky ? [00:32] bodhi_zazen, LP OpenID Auth'd homebrew tracker [00:32] bodhi_zazen, It's almost done. I was going to test it [00:33] bodhi_zazen, active version is here: http://whube.com [00:33] bodhi_zazen, it's not working well yet, and that is outdated. [00:33] Well, let us see how it goes then [00:34] Anyone interested in helping? [00:34] may I suggest you start with either a forms thread or wiki page ? [00:34] bodhi_zazen, I'll start a Wiki [00:34] and transition to whube.com when ready ? [00:34] bodhi_zazen, Sure. that is just my sandbox for now, perhaps a btdev subdomain down the line? [00:34] along these lines, paultag, ... [00:34] paultag, i will help [00:34] bodhi_zazen, I mean, ufbt* [00:34] Silver_Fox_, thank you :) [00:34] Are there any suggestions on what the team would like to see in terms of leadership ? [00:35] it is no trouble paultag , you know that ;) [00:35] bodhi_zazen: leadership in what capacity and to what topic? [00:35] yes paultag that domain is open [00:35] =) [00:35] bodhi_zazen, ok, outstanding :) [00:35] bodhi_zazen, also, if I have the floor RE administration, I have a topic [00:35] dvz-: there has been some quite discussions in dark corners about having the leadership of this team 'do more" [00:36] and I am looking for input / advice [00:36] if it is on topic paultag , please [00:36] OK [00:36] ajmorris has been AFK for the last months -- Silver_Fox_ has stepped up on the IRC team to be an interm leader. I am looking for team advice on how we should handle a member who dropped off the face [00:36] I would like to see Silver_Fox_ take on aj's role, but I don't want to get rid of him without talking to him [00:36] exactly as you said paultag [00:36] find a willing replacement [00:36] paultag: I believe AJ had resigned from his roles and made mention of leaving prior to [00:36] paultag: Members who let their membership on LP expire are de-voiced, and are technically not BT members until they show up again [00:37] dvz-, OK [00:37] I would think council discussion / action [00:37] nhandler, ok, thank you [00:37] i am a willing replacement [00:37] bodhi_zazen, OK, so then with the team's blessing, Moving Silver_Fox_ to IRC Co-Lead [00:37] what nhandler said [00:37] bodhi_zazen, I am requesting it, and Silver_Fox_ is willing [00:37] I have devoiced a few people in the past few days [00:37] bodhi_zazen: Anyone other than st33med and ajmorris? [00:38] not to me mean, but rather to keep team / voice membership "up to date" if you will [00:38] yes nhandler [00:38] overdrank [00:38] [VOTE] Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ? [00:38] Please vote on: Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?. [00:38] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:38] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:38] +1 [00:38] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:38] +1 [00:38] +1 received from dvz-. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:38] +1 [00:38] +1 [00:38] +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:38] +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:39] +0 [00:39] Abstention received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:39] I think FG leads should if at all possible be team decisions [00:39] +1 [00:39] +1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:39] Private +1 vote received. 6 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 6 [00:39] any additional votes ? [00:40] +1 [00:40] +1 received from TuxPurple. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:40] +1 [00:40] +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8 [00:40] [ENDVOTE] [00:40] Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 8 [00:40] [AGREED] Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group [00:40] AGREED received: Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group [00:40] thank you everyone [00:40] thank you Silver_Fox_ :) [00:41] I want to mention one thing b4 we move to new members [00:41] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU/Conduct [00:41] The YNU FG !!! [00:41] \o/ [00:41] \o/ [00:41] I am very excited about this FG [00:41] FG!! [00:42] o/ [00:42] oh that ;) [00:42] \O/ [00:42] I was going to name the group immature brats , but YNU seems better [00:42] i like immature brats. [00:42] +! dvz- [00:42] But then I would have to join :( [00:42] thank you to everyone for putting a team together [00:42] bodhi_zazen: Are you fine with people just editing that page, or do you want changes to go through the YNU FG ? [00:43] It is a wiki [00:43] we can always blacklist their IP or undo changes if we need =) [00:43] Just making sure, I see a few things I would like to change [00:43] speaking of teams...and before voting, bodhi_zazen - may i bring a last minute topic up for prediscussion? [00:43] sec dvz- [00:43] surely [00:44] the idea of the YNU FG is to help immature people fit better into first our team and ultimately into the greater Ubuntu Community [00:44] many of these people require a little time an patience, but then are awesome [00:44] nhandler: I threw that page together quickly using ESR's ramblings and my experience as references, please do clean it up :) [00:44] If not, root them out fast [00:44] =) [00:45] I like the term nurture [00:45] like he who shall remain nameless less we awaken his bot army [00:45] lol [00:45] OK dvz- you are up =) [00:46] for IRC trend for the beginners team is currently #ubuntu-beginners(-FG). we seem to have quite a few people going to -beginners for help questions..and then we redirect them to -beginners-help. the team is, in fact, like a big fg - so why not create a channel #ubuntu-beginners-team and use #ubuntu-beginners as the new -help channel? i think the current team channel is a tad misleading. [00:47] Aggg ! [00:47] can we not rename #ubuntu-beginners-help [00:47] I would have to re-do all the access list, 70 something :) [00:47] i first joined #ubuntuforums-beginners because i thought it was a channel for beginners to ask help questions in [00:48] I am OK with moving, it is not a bad idea [00:48] on the other hand, I am OK with new users wandering in as well, kind of makes the channel, well, interesting [00:48] -1 on moving, a few people wandering in isnt bad [00:48] besides, they are finding people who know whats up [00:48] if it is a huge support question, move the discussion to -help ? [00:49] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:49] sure, but then why are we telling them to go to a help channel when we can keep the people who are currently in -beginners there and just almost duplicate it in -team...if members are so concerned about redirecting help questions [00:49] shall we vote on that ? [00:49] i like that idea bodhi_zazen [00:49] Well dvz- [00:49] I think it is a good thing that users are landing in the main team channel. [00:49] short help questions are fine [00:49] We can then point them to the correct location for their questions [00:49] I'll BRB. I am voting +0 [00:50] I feel anyone who may wander into #u-b should be directed to #u-b-h [00:50] the same thing happens in every ubuntu channel ive ever been in, people inevitably wander in [00:50] but long discussions on iptables or other esoteric questions posting config files to pastebin deserve privacy =) [00:50] wandering is fine...but rather than wandering into a channel you think is a help channel and then being redirected to another channel with less users...i think it's counterproductive at times. [00:51] +1 dvz- [00:51] it happened with Kangarooo earlier [00:51] so if they ask or need support , dish it out ;) [00:51] if the discussion is getting long, move it [00:51] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:51] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:51] if we get a ton of counter productive traffic we can move [00:52] most people do not mind moving to another channel for support, at least in my experience [00:52] [VOTE] Should we move to -team ? [00:52] Please vote on: Should we move to -team ?. [00:52] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:52] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:52] -1 [00:52] -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:52] +0 [00:52] Abstention received from dvz-. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:52] -1 [00:52] -1 received from Rocket2DMn. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2 [00:52] any more votes ? [00:53] hehehe [00:53] -1 [00:53] -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3 [00:53] -1 [00:53] -1 received from Snova. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:53] +0 [00:53] Abstention received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:53] -1 [00:53] -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:53] +0 [00:53]