[00:00] <bodhi_zazen> looks like you are up nhandler
[00:00] <nhandler> A while ago, we decided to make #ubuntu-beginners-council +mz
[00:01] <nhandler> This means that only voiced users can talk, and if you are unvoiced, only OPs can see what you say
[00:01] <bodhi_zazen> indeed
[00:01] <nhandler> This also results in non-voiced users who idle in there being unable to change their nicks
[00:01]  * bodhi_zazen recalls being over ruled on that one =)
[00:01]  * Rocket2DMn wasnt there for that one
[00:01] <nhandler> Personally, I think +mz is not the best solution
[00:02] <nhandler> I personally think we should make the channel invite only
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> well, unless the rest of the team wants to reconsider nhandler
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> that makes the vote
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> 2 against
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> and 100 for =)
[00:03] <Rocket2DMn> I'm confused, how steep was the vote last time?
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> I think the channel should be open all the time
[00:03] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Several BT members have complained over the last few weeks about being unable to change their nick if they idle there
[00:03] <swoody> +1 nhandler
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> and we should +mz only for official business / meetings, if at all
[00:03] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: I disagree. Why should our discussions about other members be open to the public?
[00:03] <Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:03] <Rocket2DMn> Should anybody be idling in there other than counci lmembers?
[00:03] <nhandler> Most other councils, the RMBs included have secret IRC channels and mailing lists that they use
[00:03] <nhandler> Rocket2DMn: IMO, no
[00:04] <bodhi_zazen> why should we have a closed channel at all =)
[00:04] <bodhi_zazen> I like open
[00:04] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen :)
[00:04] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think the channel should be closed, I just don't think people should be idling in there
[00:04] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Because one of our main purposes is to deal with user conflicts, which by nature should be done privately
[00:04] <Silver_Fox_> i have sat in on a council meeting.  i didn't say anything though it was nice to be there.
[00:04] <nhandler> Rocket2DMn: We could implement a policy similar to #ubuntu-ops, which is open, but there is a strict no idle policy
[00:05] <nhandler> You can go there to report an issue, but once the issue has been addressed, you are required to part
[00:05] <bodhi_zazen> I think the channel should be open, and closed as needed, which IMO is rare if at all
[00:05] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: What are your feelings about a no-idle policy?
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I feel I will be over ruled =)
[00:06] <nhandler> That would allow people to report issues, but would avoid turning the issues into a "show"
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> Whatever you all wish is OK with me
[00:06] <nhandler> Any other opinions on a no-idle policy?
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I think we can manage most of the issues via moderation
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> ask people to leave if needed
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> or change teh channel to +m or what not if needed
[00:07] <superbenny> agreed, bodhi_zazen
[00:07] <Rocket2DMn> both options sounds ok to me
[00:07] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: What is your reasoning behind wanting people to idle in the -council channel?
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> free as in freedom
[00:08] <swoody> I agree bodhi_zazen. It doesn't seem like there's been enough 'wild action' in there to require it be closed all the time. I feel a nice open channel will be useful, but make it private the few times you're going to acutally need privacy.
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> I want people to feel they can come and discuss be a part of team decisions / actions
[00:08] <tronyx> hmmm not enough people in here
[00:09] <superbenny> hehe
[00:09] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: That is what the no-idle policy would allow. Users who have an issue would be able to go there, and work with the council to resolve it. However, once the issue is handled, they are required to /part
[00:09] <Silver_Fox_> i felt that when i attended bodhi_zazen
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Why should it be closed all the time ? Just because we occasionally need privacy ?
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> It should be moderated if there is a problem or issue, not cloesd
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> and it is hard to tell sometimes who is involved in an issue
[00:09] <Silver_Fox_> is full closure heavy handed?
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> anyone who is interested can pipe in , witnesses if needed to behavior
[00:10] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: You can usually tell who is directly involved and should be involved in the discussion
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> I think we loose something if the channel is closed
[00:10] <nhandler> They will usually be the ones coming to the council with the issue
[00:10] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: The channel would not be closed
[00:10] <Rocket2DMn> It seems like most people are in favor of leaving the channel open
[00:10] <dvz-> o/ what channel?
[00:10] <nhandler> It would actually be more open than it is now
[00:10] <nhandler> #ubuntu-beginners-council
[00:10] <paultag> I think the Council channel should be Open. The issue is that we need a transparent leadership
[00:10] <superbenny> honestly, what is really discussed that is so secretive? i feel like the whole point is an open discussion area where people who have something to contribute are able to
[00:10] <paultag> +1 superbenny
[00:11] <paultag> The issue is really respect of someone who breaks the rules. We don't want to cause issues with reputation
[00:11] <paultag> The best solution to that is to handle most matters over PM
[00:11] <swoody> +1 paultag
[00:11] <paultag> If the issue is at the Council, it is a big issue and the team should be involved
[00:11] <bodhi_zazen> The channel feel closed to me if it is +mz and I am an op =)
[00:11] <nhandler> Nobody is saying "secret". All decissions would be made public. But if we are discussing a user's actions, I don't think that non-involved people need to be watching
[00:11] <paultag> nhandler, ^
[00:11] <superbenny> this is true, but that's where moderation comes in. we have focus groups devoted to IRC, why not let them do their job?
[00:12] <Silver_Fox_> are the logs for the council meetings available?
[00:12] <nhandler> paultag: With the no-idle policy, people who are actively involved in the issue would be able to participate
[00:12] <paultag> nhandler, I understand that
[00:12] <nhandler> The whole idea is to get rid of the people who simply idle in there and watch
[00:12] <paultag> nhandler, but if it hits council, it's a team move. Any team member should be allowed to idle
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> why do idlers bother you nhandler ?
[00:12] <nhandler> This would also be more in line with what almost all other Ubuntu councils do
[00:13] <paultag> nhandler, we are a small team. We can still involve everyone
[00:13] <superbenny> nhandler, if its going to be made public anyway, why keep it secret for a couple extra minutes? if something sensitive is being discussed, +m so that only people involved can talk, but eventually, the logs are out there anyway.
[00:13] <superbenny> +1, paultag
[00:13] <paultag> We don't need the  MOTU council
[00:13] <paultag> that would hurt us a lot
[00:13] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Because the users there are watching for entertainment. A good number of them have no interest in working towards a solution
[00:13] <Silver_Fox_> unless the logs are edited via snips
[00:13] <nhandler> paultag: The MC is actually pretty open
[00:13] <bodhi_zazen> Ah I see
[00:14] <paultag> nhandler, I take that back. Whatever councils you talk about then.
[00:14] <swoody> -1 on the idlers nhandler. There are a lot of team members who like to see what goes on behind the curtain. Having an open channel for council will show members who are curious just how the Council works, and if they feel that would be something they would like to pursue in the future.
[00:14] <Rocket2DMn> It's an #ubuntu channel - doesn't that mean the logs are posted directly online?
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I am not sure about that nhandler
[00:14] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: But for instance, the CC has a private mailing list, so does the TB
[00:14] <nhandler> #ubuntu-ops has a no-idle policy
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> I think most of the idlers are interested in leadersip
[00:14] <nhandler> the RMBs have private lists and irc channels
[00:14] <superbenny> editing logs would go against the whole idea of open-source. nothing that we discuss is that life-changing, that it needs to be kept top-secret.
[00:14] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: If you look at the logs for our last few discussions, that is not the case
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> either learning by watching or wanting to be a part of the team, I could be wrong
[00:14] <nhandler> superbenny: Nobody mentioned editing logs
[00:14] <Silver_Fox_> are we #ubuntu-ops ?  why do we want to emulate them?
[00:15] <bodhi_zazen> and I have never seen anyone take an issue out of the channel and mis use the information
[00:15] <superbenny> nhandler, <Silver_Fox_> unless the logs are edited via snips
[00:15] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: We are an Ubuntu Council, so we should be learning from councils like the CC
[00:15] <nhandler> superbenny: But nobody said that we would be ;)
[00:15] <paultag> I disagree. I think we need leadership that fits our model
[00:15] <superbenny> fair enough
[00:15] <superbenny> +1 paultag
[00:16] <nhandler> paultag: So if we were discussing your poor behavior, you would be fine with everyone watching?
[00:16] <tronyx> i agree with paultag
[00:16] <paultag> nhandler, any team member should be able to contribute to the discussion about my poor behavior, yes
[00:16] <Rocket2DMn> Ok, I think this discussion is wearing out.  Are there written guidelines about how Ubuntu Councils should use their resources? If not, I think we can look at other councils, but we don't need to do what they do - we are capable of figuring out what is best for us specifically
[00:16] <nhandler> paultag: Contribute is one thing, but should they all be able to sit and watch
[00:16] <paultag> nhandler, sure
[00:16] <tronyx> imho if it were my poor behavior or paultag's behavior and it is impacting the whole team, everyone is already effected so everyone should be aware of the resolution
[00:16] <paultag> nhandler, any team member is directly affected by my behavior
[00:16] <superbenny> nhandler, honestly, thats part of the punishment.
[00:16] <nhandler> paultag: In that case, I don't think we should have a -council at all
[00:16] <superbenny> besides, the logs will be made public anyway
[00:16] <nhandler> Just do it all in the main IRC channel
[00:16] <paultag> nhandler, I disagree with that
[00:17] <paultag> nhandler, I think the council is a quiet corner to do that in
[00:17] <swoody> nhandler:  I believe paultag mentioned about using PM's before. I feel that anything that is not severe enough should be public, and for those things which are too much for a public channel can be expressed via PM
[00:17] <paultag> +1 swoody
[00:17] <superbenny> +1 swoody
[00:17] <paultag> I always handle issues over PM before they hit council
[00:17] <nhandler> swoody: PMs are only for 1 on 1, not a group chat
[00:18] <superbenny> right, but why make it a group chat if someone just needs a warning?
[00:18] <nhandler> paultag: If everyone is idling in there and "participating" it is not any more quiet than the main channel
[00:18] <paultag> I say we defer this
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> I think nhandler has a point, but ...
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> only to a point
[00:18] <swoody> nhandler:  well as bodhi_zazen also suggested, maybe that would be the time to use moderation power to make the #council channel more private
[00:18] <paultag> OK, we have a lot to talk about. Lets do this later with the whole team
[00:18] <nhandler> swoody: That doesn't make it any more private
[00:18] <paultag> this is not the place to argue, this is the meeting. Let's hit the ML
[00:18] <Rocket2DMn> no paultag , lets settle this now
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> I do believe there are times when the channel will need to be closed
[00:18] <nhandler> paultag: I am ok with that
[00:18] <paultag> Rocket2DMn, I think we need to talk about it more
[00:18] <Rocket2DMn> this is a team meeting
[00:18] <paultag> Rocket2DMn, we are ill-prepared for it
[00:18] <nhandler> I have to run to dinner anyway
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> outside of those times, unless there is a good reason, leave it open would be my 2c
[00:18] <Rocket2DMn> alright, whatever
[00:19] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:19] <tronyx> may i interject? i never say much during the meetings
[00:19] <Rocket2DMn> shall we take off the +mc for now?
[00:19] <bodhi_zazen> yes tronyx
[00:19]  * tronyx begins typing
[00:19] <bodhi_zazen> no Rocket2DMn
[00:19] <bodhi_zazen> I think we need to use the meeting time to discuss these issues
[00:19] <bodhi_zazen> we are all here ;)
[00:19] <bodhi_zazen> ml == borring
[00:19] <tronyx> there is a lot to be said for the council channel and just who can be in there.  i know this isn't 'our' channel and the CoC applies but for those of you who know me, you know what i am getting at
[00:19] <swoody> heh, +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:19] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's on the Wiki :P the Meetings are not for arguing about the issue
[00:20] <swoody> it allows us to explore more ideas in a few seconds of real-time chat, that a few dozen emails spread out over days
[00:20] <tronyx> simply put, if you are an asshole, it effects all users in ubuntuforums-beginners.  if your behavior effects the whole team, than you had better be prepared for everyone to know about it
[00:20]  * bodhi_zazen edits the wiki
[00:20] <Silver_Fox_> can i make a request on a new topic?  if time allows
[00:20] <tronyx> and it may also provide incentive for people to act like adults and part of the communityh
[00:20] <bodhi_zazen> yes Silver_Fox_ :)
[00:20] <tronyx> let's take montel for example, i am sure his expulsion was addressed in private, but before there, it effected us all
[00:20] <paultag> It was
[00:20] <paultag> I talked in PM a lot
[00:21] <paultag> it was only a last resort to involve Council, and then the team
[00:21] <tronyx> eventually we all know/knew what happened and that is that.  but it effected everyone
[00:21] <tronyx> i think that if someone is going to contribute, be active and be productive, they have just as much of a place on the 'council' as anyone else
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> Let us take a non-binding vote, to see what the consensus is, and move teh discussion to ML
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> then move to another topic ?
[00:22] <paultag> +1
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> sounds good to me bodhi_zazen
[00:22] <superbenny> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:22] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel
[00:22] <MootBot> Please vote on: Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel.
[00:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:22] <bodhi_zazen> -1
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:22] <paultag> -1
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from paultag. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> -1
[00:22] <dvz-> -1
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from dvz-. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
[00:22] <swoody> -1
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
[00:22] <drs305> -1
[00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
[00:22] <MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 7 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -7
[00:23] <TuxPurple> -1
[00:23] <tronyx> -1
[00:23] <superbenny> -1
[00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from tronyx. 0 for, 8 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -8
[00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from superbenny. 0 for, 9 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -9
[00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 10 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -10
[00:23] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
[00:23]  * bodhi_zazen notes nhandler is probably +1
[00:24] <swoody> well I feel that about sums it up right there :)
[00:24] <Silver_Fox_> what about rocket?
[00:24] <superbenny> agreed, swoody
[00:24] <Rocket2DMn> i vote privately
[00:24] <superbenny> hehe
[00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:24] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 10 against. 0 abstained. Total: -10
[00:24] <superbenny> more -9 with nhandler
[00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [IDEA]No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council
[00:24] <MootBot> IDEA received: No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council
[00:25] <bodhi_zazen> [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel
[00:25] <MootBot> ACTION received: [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel
[00:25] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: did you have a topic ?
[00:26] <Silver_Fox_> minor thing,  more of a request
[00:26] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen, ^
[00:26] <bodhi_zazen> OK, go for it ;)
[00:26] <Silver_Fox_> I would like to request that agenda items not go up less than 5 minutes prior to meeting starting
[00:27] <Silver_Fox_> it doesn't seem organised
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> indeed
[00:27] <Rocket2DMn> Silver_Fox_, items are supposed to be on the agenda in advance, but we didnt have many items today
[00:27] <dvz-> o/ bodhi_zazen i have a topic but i think it may have to wait..in luie of Silver_Fox_ topic
[00:27] <dvz-> lol
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]"Do something"
[00:27] <MootBot> New Topic: "Do something"
[00:28] <swoody> +1 Silver_Fox_ although I feel that's more of a personal thing, and someone who has a topic they want to add should just wait to put it on the next meeting's agenda
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> this is sort of an old topic, from last time
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> paultag: poke =)
[00:28] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, hola
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> there was a discussion on the council / leadership / assigning tasks to those who need assignments
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> something like that
[00:28] <paultag> Yes indeed
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> go paultag =)
[00:29]  * paultag starts
[00:29] <superbenny> really sorry guys, i need to run and make dinner. i might be back by the end of the meeting.
[00:29] <paultag> The idea here is really one from the ( now MIA ) JoshuaRL and myself
[00:30] <paultag> We wanted to create a system, a "pipeline" if you will from the UBT to the wider community. We would have tasks that would help the wider community, and track them with new members, or members who would want to use the system. NOT required, just a helpful structure
[00:30] <paultag> Any ideas, questions, concerns>
[00:30] <paultag> s/>/?/
[00:31] <paultag> This system would work in tandem with the Focus Groups
[00:31] <bodhi_zazen> I think it would be a good idea, you willing to maintain such a list ?
[00:31] <Silver_Fox_> track them how paultag ?
[00:31] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, yes. I am undergoing the task of figuring out how to track them
[00:31] <bodhi_zazen> If so, I would suggest we start it and see how it works out
[00:31] <swoody> paultag:  How would this tracking system be setup? What exactly would you use to list the assingments that need to be done?
[00:31] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, We were using LP, but it is not proving fruitful
[00:32] <bodhi_zazen> Well, that may be a problem paultag :)
[00:32] <paultag> swoody, that is up to discussion by anyone who would like to contribute. I thought it like a bug tracking system
[00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Well, I Have a workaround
[00:32] <bodhi_zazen> linky ?
[00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, LP OpenID Auth'd homebrew tracker
[00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, It's almost done. I was going to test it
[00:33] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, active version is here: http://whube.com
[00:33] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's not working well yet, and that is outdated.
[00:33] <bodhi_zazen> Well, let us see how it goes then
[00:34] <paultag> Anyone interested in helping?
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> may I suggest you start with either a forms thread or wiki page ?
[00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I'll start a Wiki
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> and transition to whube.com when ready ?
[00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Sure. that is just my sandbox for now, perhaps a btdev subdomain down the line?
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> along these lines, paultag, ...
[00:34] <Silver_Fox_> paultag,  i will help
[00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I mean, ufbt*
[00:34] <paultag> Silver_Fox_, thank you :)
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> Are there any suggestions on what the team would like to see in terms of leadership ?
[00:35] <Silver_Fox_> it is no trouble paultag ,  you know that ;)
[00:35] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: leadership in what capacity and to what topic?
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> yes paultag that domain is open
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[00:35] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, ok, outstanding :)
[00:35] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, also, if I have the floor RE administration, I have a topic
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> dvz-: there has been some quite discussions in dark corners about having the leadership of this team 'do more"
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> and I am looking for input / advice
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> if it is on topic paultag , please
[00:36] <paultag> OK
[00:36] <paultag> ajmorris has been AFK for the last months -- Silver_Fox_ has stepped up on the IRC team to be an interm leader. I am looking for team advice on how we should handle a member who dropped off the face
[00:36] <paultag> I would like to see Silver_Fox_ take on aj's role, but I don't want to get rid of him without talking to him
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> exactly as you said paultag
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> find a willing replacement
[00:36] <dvz-> paultag: I believe AJ had resigned from his roles and made mention of leaving prior to
[00:36] <nhandler> paultag: Members who let their membership on LP expire are de-voiced, and are technically not BT members until they show up again
[00:37] <paultag> dvz-, OK
[00:37] <bodhi_zazen> I would think council discussion / action
[00:37] <paultag> nhandler, ok, thank you
[00:37] <Silver_Fox_> i am a willing replacement
[00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, OK, so then with the team's blessing, Moving Silver_Fox_ to IRC Co-Lead
[00:37] <bodhi_zazen> what nhandler said
[00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I am requesting it, and Silver_Fox_ is willing
[00:37] <bodhi_zazen> I have devoiced a few people in the past few days
[00:37] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Anyone other than st33med and ajmorris?
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> not to me mean, but rather to keep team / voice membership "up to date" if you will
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> yes nhandler
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> overdrank
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?
[00:38] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?.
[00:38] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:38] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:38] <dvz-> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:38] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:38] <paultag> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:39] <nhandler> +0
[00:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:39] <bodhi_zazen> I think FG leads should if at all  possible be team decisions
[00:39] <drs305> +1
[00:39] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:39] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 6 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:39] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
[00:40] <TuxPurple> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from TuxPurple. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:40] <swoody> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:40] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:40] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 8
[00:40] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED] Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group
[00:40] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group
[00:40] <Silver_Fox_> thank you everyone
[00:40] <paultag> thank you Silver_Fox_ :)
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> I want to mention one thing b4 we move to new members
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU/Conduct
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> The YNU FG !!!
[00:41] <paultag> \o/
[00:41] <jgoguen> \o/
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> I am very excited about this FG
[00:41] <vorian> FG!!
[00:42] <dvz-> o/
[00:42] <Silver_Fox_> oh that ;)
[00:42] <Silver_Fox_> \O/
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> I was going to name the group immature brats , but YNU seems better
[00:42] <dvz-> i like immature brats.
[00:42] <swoody> +! dvz-
[00:42] <paultag> But then I would have to join :(
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> thank you to everyone for putting a team together
[00:42] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Are you fine with people just editing that page, or do you want changes to go through the YNU FG ?
[00:43] <bodhi_zazen> It is a wiki
[00:43] <bodhi_zazen> we can always blacklist their IP or undo changes if we need =)
[00:43] <nhandler> Just making sure, I see a few things I would like to change
[00:43] <dvz-> speaking of teams...and before voting, bodhi_zazen - may i bring a last minute topic up for prediscussion?
[00:43] <bodhi_zazen> sec dvz-
[00:43] <dvz-> surely
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> the idea of the YNU FG is to help immature people fit better into first our team and ultimately into the greater Ubuntu Community
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> many of these people require a little time an patience, but then are awesome
[00:44] <jgoguen> nhandler: I threw that page together quickly using ESR's ramblings and my experience as references, please do clean it up :)
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> If not, root them out fast
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[00:45] <Silver_Fox_> I like the term nurture
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> like he who shall remain nameless less we awaken his bot army
[00:45] <jgoguen> lol
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> OK dvz- you are up =)
[00:46] <dvz-> for IRC trend for the beginners team is currently #ubuntu-beginners(-FG).   we seem to have quite a few people going to -beginners for help questions..and then we redirect them to -beginners-help.   the team is, in fact, like a big fg - so why not create a channel #ubuntu-beginners-team  and use #ubuntu-beginners  as the new -help channel?  i think the current team channel is a tad misleading.
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> Aggg !
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> can we not rename #ubuntu-beginners-help
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> I would have to re-do all the access list, 70 something :)
[00:47] <dvz-> i first joined #ubuntuforums-beginners because i thought it was a channel for beginners to ask help questions in
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> I am OK with moving, it is not a bad idea
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> on the other hand, I am OK with new users wandering in as well, kind of makes the channel, well, interesting
[00:48] <Rocket2DMn> -1 on moving, a few people wandering in isnt bad
[00:48] <Rocket2DMn> besides, they are finding people who know whats up
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> if it is a huge support question, move the discussion to -help ?
[00:49] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:49] <dvz-> sure, but then why are we telling them to go to a help channel when we can keep the people who are currently in -beginners there and just almost duplicate it in -team...if members are so concerned about redirecting help questions
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> shall we vote on that ?
[00:49] <dvz-> i like that idea bodhi_zazen
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> Well dvz-
[00:49] <nhandler> I think it is a good thing that users are landing in the main team channel.
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> short help questions are fine
[00:49] <nhandler> We can then point them to the correct location for their questions
[00:49] <paultag> I'll BRB. I am voting +0
[00:50] <swoody> I feel anyone who may wander into #u-b should be directed to #u-b-h
[00:50] <Rocket2DMn> the same thing happens in every ubuntu channel ive ever been in, people inevitably wander in
[00:50] <bodhi_zazen> but long discussions on iptables or other esoteric questions posting config files to pastebin deserve privacy =)
[00:50] <dvz-> wandering is fine...but rather than wandering into a channel you think is a help channel and then being redirected to another channel with less users...i think it's counterproductive at times.
[00:51] <bodhi_zazen> +1 dvz-
[00:51] <Silver_Fox_> it happened with Kangarooo earlier
[00:51] <bodhi_zazen> so if they ask or need support , dish it out ;)
[00:51] <bodhi_zazen> if the discussion is getting long, move it
[00:51] <dvz-> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:51] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:51] <bodhi_zazen> if we get a ton of counter productive traffic we can move
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> most people do not mind moving to another channel for support, at least in my experience
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Should we move to -team ?
[00:52] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should we move to -team ?.
[00:52] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:52] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> -1
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:52] <dvz-> +0
[00:52] <MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:52] <Rocket2DMn> -1
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from Rocket2DMn. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> any more votes ?
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> hehehe
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
[00:53] <Snova> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from Snova. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
[00:53] <TuxPurple> +0
[00:53] <MootBot> Abstention received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -4
[00:53] <swoody> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5
[00:53] <drs305> +0
[00:53] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5
[00:53] <jgoguen> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from jgoguen. 0 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> any more votes ?
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:54] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 6 against. 3 abstained. Total: -6
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> shall we do
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New Members
[00:54] <MootBot> New Topic: New Members
[00:54] <paultag> Oh!
[00:54] <dvz-> i don't know much of him to give much of a rundown
[00:54] <paultag> I am here, can we do Wiebelhaus quick?
[00:54] <paultag> I need to cook, and I am just about to get up
[00:55] <paultag> ( sorry for breaking protocol here )
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> yes paultag
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> is Wiebelhaus here ?
[00:55] <paultag> Wiebelhaus is not here right now, but most of you know him pretty well. I think he is a damn fine member, and worthy of the team :)
[00:55] <Silver_Fox_> no
[00:55] <jgoguen> Not in here
[00:55] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's been about two meetings he has been up for it
[00:55] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, can we do a absentee vote?
[00:56] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Wiebelhaus for membership
[00:56] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Wiebelhaus for membership.
[00:56] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:56] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:56] <bodhi_zazen> +0
[00:56] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:56] <dvz-> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:56] <drs305> +1
[00:56] <paultag> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:56] <jgoguen> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:56] <Silver_Fox_> +0
[00:56] <MootBot> Abstention received from Silver_Fox_. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:56] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 5 for, 0 against, 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:57] <Snova> +1
[00:57] <MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
[00:57] <paultag> I think that's it
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:57] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 6
[00:57] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Thank you for making that exception -- and on that note I am off, time too cook :)
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> np
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> anyone want to speak / vote on leoquant ?
[00:58] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=155157
[00:58] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=155157
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: you wish to speak ?
[00:59] <bodhi_zazen> I know leoquant from the forums
[00:59] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen,  no,  i am willing to vote
[00:59] <bodhi_zazen> Ah , OK
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> leoquant is an ubuntu member and seems quite knowledgeable, IMO
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> let us vote, abstain to vote later ;)
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] leoquant for membership
[01:00] <MootBot> Please vote on:  leoquant for membership.
[01:00] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[01:00] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[01:00] <drs305> +0
[01:00] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[01:00] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 1 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[01:00] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[01:01] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[01:01] <Snova> +1
[01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[01:01] <swoody> +1
[01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[01:01] <TuxPurple> +1
[01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from TuxPurple. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[01:02] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> we are almost out of time
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> I have a general announcement that should interest most of the team
[01:03] <bodhi_zazen> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1876
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1876
[01:04] <bodhi_zazen> Any other topics or shall we end the meeting ?
[01:04] <Rocket2DMn> We're over an hour, better end
[01:04] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you all for coming and your contributions to both the team and Ubuntu
[01:05] <bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
[01:05] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:05.
[01:05] <Silver_Fox_> i wish it was 19:05...not 01:05
[01:05] <superbenny> aw shucks i just missed it
[01:08] <Kangarooo> !logs > superbenny
[01:12] <superbenny> thank your Kangarooo
[01:14] <Kangarooo> superbenny: also use command /topic to see topic . and in topic will be link to wiki with this meetings irc logs. maybe they will be later added but all history of all meeting can be found in wiki.ubuntu.com in correct pages/groups/teams
[02:00] <Kangarooo> hello. now meeting yes ? now its 4.00 in latvia :) im gona go sleep after this
[02:01] <bodhi_zazen> should be
[02:02] <pleia2> just gathering the interested parties :)
[02:03] <cprofitt> #startmeeting
[02:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:03. The chair is cprofitt.
[02:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[02:03] <cprofitt> Welcome to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project meeting
[02:04] <pleia2> thanks for chairing, cprofitt :)
[02:04] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[02:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[02:04] <pleia2> ok, we're still stalled on licensing and haven't heard from canonical legal, did we decide to move forward with doctormo's contacts with lawyer people?
[02:05] <cprofitt> I am not familiar with this...
[02:05] <cprofitt> do you mean doctormo has lawyer people or will contact them directly?
[02:05] <pleia2> 23:09 < doctormo> cprofitt, pleia2, greg-g, Vantrax|Work: Is it worth contacting the SFLC given that I already have a contact there?
[02:06] <cprofitt> thanks... I guess I missed that...
[02:07] <cprofitt> I am fine with that... but I am concerned with bodhi_zazen being comfortable with things
[02:07] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen?
[02:08] <bodhi_zazen> I have decided to remain neutral on licensing issues, so long as it is free, open, and not abused
[02:08] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: I know you had some legal concerns which we want to make sure are address
[02:08] <bodhi_zazen> I would rather put my energy into building content, developing the team, etc
[02:08]  * pleia2 nods
[02:09] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, is the issue of CC-BY-SA vs. CC-BY-SA-NC no longer an issue then?
[02:09] <bodhi_zazen> I discussed my concerns outside of this team, thank you though pleia2
[02:09] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: what has the rest of the team decided ? are we waiting for an opinion from Canonical ?
[02:10] <cprofitt> No. Canonical was ok with what ever choice we made
[02:10] <pleia2> we pretty much decided CC-BY-SA
[02:10] <cprofitt> the rest of the team is settled on CC-BY-SA
[02:10] <cprofitt> with no transfer of ownership
[02:10] <bodhi_zazen> I do not have any problem with CC-BY-SA
[02:10] <pleia2> \o/
[02:11] <cprofitt> k
[02:11] <cprofitt> then we are set to move forward with that
[02:11] <bodhi_zazen> \o/
[02:11] <pleia2> great :)
[02:11] <cprofitt> [AGREED]license will be CC:BY-SA and authors will retain ownership of copyright
[02:11] <MootBot> AGREED received: license will be CC:BY-SA and authors will retain ownership of copyright
[02:12] <pleia2> if legal things do come up, it's nice to know we have avenues to get help :)
[02:12] <bodhi_zazen> How is team structure going ?
[02:12] <pleia2> so this long stall was not entirely unproductive
[02:12] <bodhi_zazen> I saw a few requests to join the team in my in-box
[02:13] <bodhi_zazen> did not know how to respond and was spending last night at Myah's birthday :)
[02:13] <pleia2> I think we were supposed to add our thoughts to a wiki page and didn't :\
[02:13] <cprofitt> we are, at this time, not accepting new members.
[02:13] <bodhi_zazen> sounds right
[02:13] <cprofitt> I do not think anyone has added their thoughts on structure
[02:13] <bodhi_zazen> ooo, why not cprofitt ?
[02:13] <bodhi_zazen> re: new members
[02:14] <bodhi_zazen> we should at least invite them to our channel ?
[02:14] <cprofitt> under what parameters would we accept them?
[02:14] <cprofitt> I do not mind doing so...
[02:14] <cprofitt> Vantrax, had wanted to be very selective
[02:14] <cprofitt> I know we discussed the idea of making a 'beginners' level team
[02:14] <cprofitt> and then having a 'advanced' or by invite only team
[02:14] <cprofitt> but do not think we came to consensus
[02:15] <bodhi_zazen> Ah, well, I think for now we need to know people wanting to join
[02:15] <bodhi_zazen> and work on developing a team structure
[02:15]  * pleia2 nods
[02:15] <bodhi_zazen> I would adapt much of the BT structure to this team, but I am not sure if that is what we want
[02:16] <bodhi_zazen> seems we need to define roles
[02:16] <bodhi_zazen> people who develop content
[02:16] <bodhi_zazen> people who teach
[02:16] <bodhi_zazen> etc
[02:16] <cprofitt> I agree...
[02:16] <cprofitt> perhaps we need a UCLP - Board
[02:16] <cprofitt> UCLP - Instructors
[02:16] <cprofitt> UCLP - Curriculum
[02:17] <cprofitt> UCLP - Testers
[02:17] <cprofitt> or some such
[02:17] <bodhi_zazen> yep
[02:17] <pleia2> yeah
[02:17] <bodhi_zazen> who is interested in developing a team structure ?
[02:17] <cprofitt> should we make those teams... I had made some teams similar to that and Vantrax objected
[02:17] <cprofitt> so I had the team deleted
[02:17] <cprofitt> forget what it was
[02:18] <bodhi_zazen> I suggest those interested discuss it in #ubuntu-learning and start on a wiki page
[02:18] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: +1
[02:18] <cprofitt> the wiki page is already there
[02:18] <pleia2> where?
[02:18] <pleia2> I forget :x
[02:18] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure
[02:18] <cprofitt> been there for close to a month now
[02:18] <pleia2> right right
[02:18] <bodhi_zazen> well, who is interested in developing a structure then ?
[02:19] <bodhi_zazen> I would suggest a small group discuss and develop details and bring it back
[02:19] <pleia2> I think cprofitt is on the right track
[02:19] <bodhi_zazen> I can do it alone
[02:19] <bodhi_zazen> if need be
[02:19] <bodhi_zazen> but I did not want to take that task on without your blessing ;)
[02:20] <cprofitt> I do not mind coming up with a structure either...
[02:20] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: can you toss something together and then check back in channel in a couple days for input on progress?
[02:20] <pleia2> maybe you and cprofitt
[02:20] <bodhi_zazen> yes
[02:20] <cprofitt> but I still think we need to either have the board 'vote' on the structure or 'vote' on saying that what we do is 'it'
[02:20] <bodhi_zazen> I think that that will work
[02:20] <bodhi_zazen> -1 cprofitt
[02:21] <cprofitt> we actually have a quorom with just the three of us
[02:21] <cprofitt> so we can do that tonight
[02:21] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think we need to vote on the need for structure, just start developing it
[02:21] <cprofitt> I agree with that bodhi_zazen
[02:21] <pleia2> +1
[02:21] <bodhi_zazen> once it is in place -> take comments -> adopt it
[02:21] <cprofitt> so we develop... the board tweaks
[02:21] <cprofitt> then we vote
[02:21] <cprofitt> right?
[02:21] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[02:21] <cprofitt> I thought you were saying you would just develop it...
[02:22] <cprofitt> sorry for my misunderstanding
[02:22] <bodhi_zazen> Let me work on at least an outline
[02:22] <cprofitt> k
[02:22] <cprofitt> sounds good bodhi_zazen
[02:22]  * pleia2 subscribes to that wiki page
[02:22] <bodhi_zazen> I need some assistance with the roles on a moodle site
[02:22] <cprofitt> you get the ball rolling...
[02:22] <pleia2> so I can follow along! :)
[02:22] <cprofitt> and I will run along side
[02:23] <bodhi_zazen> I see Content contributors / theme , students, instructors, and admin as general categories
[02:24] <cprofitt> not sure if we have students as a 'group'
[02:24] <cprofitt> but other than that it looks good
[02:24] <pleia2> I kind of like the idea of an open group too
[02:24] <bodhi_zazen> OK, I will work on it
[02:24] <cprofitt> k
[02:24] <cprofitt> do we want an LP team for the board?
[02:24] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: I think the general process would be
[02:24] <bodhi_zazen> open group -> open to all.
[02:25] <pleia2> cprofitt: we have one, and I think it's good (admin mailing list, especially)
[02:25] <cprofitt> we have one...
[02:25] <bodhi_zazen> Once we get to know people and their interests / strengths they can move to an appropriate group
[02:25] <pleia2> yes, you're in it!
[02:25] <cprofitt> ah... yes... we did make that...
[02:25]  * cprofitt shakes head
[02:25] <pleia2> cprofitt: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning-board
[02:26] <bodhi_zazen> I think there is a consensus, misunderstanding, we are not trying to be exclusive at this point
[02:26] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: right
[02:26] <cprofitt> yes... I do not want to be exclusive
[02:26] <bodhi_zazen> the idea is to provide structure and start developing team tasks
[02:26] <cprofitt> I do think in the future there will be some teams similar to bug-control
[02:27] <bodhi_zazen> OK
[02:27] <cprofitt> that will be formed... and membership will be based on contribution
[02:27] <cprofitt> but not now...
[02:28] <cprofitt> is that your feeling as well pleia2 ?
[02:28] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, ?
[02:28] <bodhi_zazen> I personally like the general idea
[02:29] <pleia2> cprofitt: yes
[02:29] <cprofitt> ok
[02:29] <bodhi_zazen> Open membership -> meet & greet -> as long as they are not a mutant they can be a member and contribute as they wish
[02:29] <dantalizing> lol
[02:29]  * dantalizing feels excluded
[02:29] <bodhi_zazen> We then identify strengths and interests and encourage them to join a more specific group
[02:30]  * pleia2 nods
[02:30]  * pleia2 hugs dantalizing
[02:30] <dantalizing> :)
[02:30] <cprofitt> sorry dantalizing you are indeed a mutant
[02:30] <bodhi_zazen> more of a process, the goal of encouraging involvement rather then idling in the channel
[02:30] <cprofitt> but a warm and friendly mutant
[02:30] <bodhi_zazen> AGGGG Mutant
[02:31] <cprofitt> +1 bodhi_zazen encouraging
[02:31] <cprofitt> any other topics?
[02:31] <bodhi_zazen> yes
[02:32] <bodhi_zazen> if I may
[02:32]  * cprofitt nods
[02:32] <bodhi_zazen> Any thoughts on moving the server ?
[02:32] <pleia2> I think we should keep it hosted with you for now
[02:33] <cprofitt> I think both have merits...
[02:33] <pleia2> we can develop the site, get a good idea about what we need, if canonical really needs us to move it in the future we'll have a very good idea of precisely what we need from them
[02:33] <bodhi_zazen> I like that plan pleia2
[02:33] <cprofitt> but currently favor leaving it on your server... but want to keep the possibility of moving it to Canonical open
[02:33] <cprofitt> if we feel we can get the content production to a stable state...
[02:33] <cprofitt> moving it does become easier
[02:33]  * pleia2 nods
[02:34] <bodhi_zazen> OK, I would like to identify a second person to back me up on sys admin on the server
[02:34] <bodhi_zazen> In the event I am say on vacation for example :)
[02:34] <cprofitt> I am still too weak in the sys admin foo
[02:34] <pleia2> I could help, but I think others volunteered?
[02:34] <cprofitt> I would nominate Vantrax but he is not here
[02:35] <cprofitt> so I would nominate pleia2 because she is here
[02:35] <bodhi_zazen> yes, I can not recall who volunteered
[02:35] <cprofitt> I thought Vantrax did
[02:35] <Vantrax> i is kinda here
[02:35] <bodhi_zazen> we do not need to decide today
[02:35] <bodhi_zazen> but it is OK if we do
[02:35] <Vantrax> its a bad week for me at work, we are deploying new hardware and lab images atm
[02:36] <bodhi_zazen> Vantrax: would be ideal as he is in a different TZ and that helps with 24 / 7 / 365 coverage
[02:36] <pleia2> I agree
[02:37] <Vantrax> i dont mind doing it, just need to skill up a little:P Im sure bodhi can help
[02:37] <bodhi_zazen> yes, or pleia2 can help as well, or the BT if I am not available
[02:37] <pleia2> I can offer guidance too, due to time concerns I prefer offering help rather than being the actual sysadmin anyway ;)
[02:38] <pleia2> so one other thought - announcing our project
[02:38] <pleia2> do we hold off until after structure is decided?
[02:38] <pleia2> I think once that's in place we plow ahead
[02:38] <bodhi_zazen> Well, the good news, the server is set up and is for the most part on auto pilot
[02:38] <pleia2> :)
[02:38] <cprofitt> I would wait until we have structure... better defined
[02:39] <bodhi_zazen> +1 pleia2
[02:39] <cprofitt> perhaps we can announce once it is fairly well laid out...
[02:39] <cprofitt> and not wait for an official approval
[02:39] <pleia2> yep
[02:39] <bodhi_zazen> I think once we announce we will get an influx, and to be honest we look bad if we can not direct those who need guidance ;)
[02:39] <cprofitt> but my hope is that with bodhi_zazen's energy it will not take us that long to get it ironed out
[02:40] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: right :)
[02:40] <Vantrax> yay bodhi
[02:40] <bodhi_zazen> Have you all seen doctormo's new venture ?
[02:41] <cprofitt> no
[02:41] <bodhi_zazen> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/video-blog-entry-admin-introduction/
[02:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/video-blog-entry-admin-introduction/
[02:41] <pleia2> yeah, very cool stuff :)
[02:41] <pleia2> I think we'll be doing a similar thing here in Philly
[02:41] <Vantrax> also very good for our project
[02:41] <pleia2> actually an extension of our lug, teamed up with our loco
[02:42] <pleia2> ok, anything else on the table?
[02:43] <bodhi_zazen> o/
[02:43]  * cprofitt nods to bodhi_zazen 
[02:43] <bodhi_zazen> I know we are a renegade band, but ...
[02:44] <bodhi_zazen> I think we might be able to draw from the BT
[02:44] <Vantrax> were renegades?
[02:44]  * Vantrax thinks its time to get some tats
[02:44] <bodhi_zazen> I have not really discussed it with the BT much
[02:44] <cprofitt> I think we can draw from BT and other teams...
[02:44] <bodhi_zazen> just a thought
[02:44] <pleia2> Vantrax: haha
[02:45] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: yeah, once we get things announced I have some ideas for teams that can help (ubuntu-women for one, I know there are several women involved there who are interested in education)
[02:45] <Vantrax> I think BT will be a resource we draw on, but also the wiki team/doc team, motu etc
[02:45] <Vantrax> BT is just one you have pull over:P
[02:45] <bodhi_zazen> indeed cprofitt , but the BT has really grown and they are so big they are getting , well, bored :)
[02:45] <cprofitt> I think Bug Control as well.
[02:46] <cprofitt> are you saying that BT can get involved -- as it already is -- or that you want to draw structure from it?
[02:46] <pleia2> yeah, we have contacts on the main page of our wiki who I've already contacted
[02:46] <cprofitt> I was still thinking along the lines of structure
[02:46] <bodhi_zazen> We should work on establishing clear and consistent contacts with those teams as well
[02:46] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: I think you were on that ?
[02:46] <bodhi_zazen> how is that going ?
[02:47] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: yep, I've contacted several teams and they're ready when we are for producing content
[02:47] <bodhi_zazen> thanks for the update pleia2
[02:47] <pleia2> so once we have structure and themed site, we will have folks who need logins for development of courses
[02:47] <bodhi_zazen> do you have a contact list somewhere that I (and perhaps others) might be able to reference if needed ?
[02:47] <bodhi_zazen> for contact people ?
[02:47] <pleia2> it's on the main page of our wiki
[02:48] <pleia2> "Affiliates & Key People"
[02:48] <bodhi_zazen> o/
[02:49] <bodhi_zazen> Anyone see our test site recently ?
[02:49] <bodhi_zazen> http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/
[02:49] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/
[02:49] <cprofitt> yes
[02:49] <cprofitt> it is looking good...
[02:49] <cprofitt> just need to get the menus redone and the mouse over worked out...
[02:49] <cprofitt> Vantrax, showed us this last week
[02:49] <bodhi_zazen> I believe we have Vantrax to thank for that ?
[02:49] <dantalizing> nice
[02:50] <Vantrax> menu's and links acutally
[02:50] <Vantrax> but thats all easy stuff
[02:50] <Vantrax> we just need to decide what we want there
[02:50] <Vantrax> the hard bit was redoing graphics:P
[02:50] <Vantrax> and formatting
[02:51] <Vantrax> doctormo is going to be helping work on finishing it up too
[02:51] <Vantrax> i should have enough time to completely finish it this weekend
[02:51] <pleia2> great :)
[02:51] <bodhi_zazen> sweet
[02:52]  * cprofitt nine minute check
[02:52] <bodhi_zazen> any problems with the test server ?
[02:52] <Vantrax> not that I know of
[02:53] <Vantrax> Ive been trying to catch elmo to talk about what he was querying about the other day too
[02:53] <Vantrax> hes hard to catch...
[02:53] <bodhi_zazen> k thanks :)
[02:53] <Vantrax> np bodhi_zazen
[02:54] <Vantrax> also bodhi_zazen your nominated for CC
[02:55] <bodhi_zazen> You have no idea how shocked I was to learn that Vantrax
[02:55] <bodhi_zazen> I wonder who nominated me ?
[02:55] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[02:56] <pleia2> hehe
[02:56] <bodhi_zazen> I understand that there are some other well qualified candidated
[02:56] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, who?
[02:56] <bodhi_zazen> *cough* pleia2 *cough*
[02:57] <cprofitt> ah
[02:57] <bodhi_zazen> !Vantrax
[02:57] <cprofitt> well congrats -- it is well deserved and you have my support
[02:57] <bodhi_zazen> Vantrax: Careful with that e-mail
[02:57] <cprofitt> is this something we can be present for... or vote for...?
[02:57] <pleia2> yeah Vantrax nominated both bodhi_zazen and myself
[02:57] <pleia2> cprofitt: it'll be a vote
[02:58] <pleia2> all ubuntu members can vote
[02:58] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: no, pleia2 did not nominate me , pleia2 was nominated for the CC
[02:58] <cprofitt> oh...
[02:58] <cprofitt> well... you both have my support...
[02:58] <bodhi_zazen> by yet another infamous email from you know who
[02:58] <pleia2> hehe
[02:58] <cprofitt> I feel I am missing something...
[02:58] <cprofitt> shall we end the meeting now?
[02:58] <bodhi_zazen> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2009-July/000637.html
[02:59] <pleia2> cprofitt: yes, I think so
[02:59] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[02:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:59.
[02:59] <bodhi_zazen> thank you cprofitt
[02:59] <Vantrax> ^.^
[02:59] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: gave me that link, lol
[03:00] <cprofitt> have a good night all
[15:59] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[15:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:59. The chair is robbiew.
[15:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:59] <robbiew> hi
[16:00] <cjwatson> hi
[16:00] <liw> hi
[16:00] <james_w> hi
[16:00] <james_w> ho
[16:00] <mterry> hi
[16:00] <al-maisan> hello
[16:01] <robbiew> mvo: evand: Keybuk: here?
[16:01] <robbiew> slangasek: ^?
[16:01] <evand> robbiew: ja
[16:01] <slangasek> hi
[16:01] <doko> hi
[16:01] <Keybuk> robbiew: yup, I'm distracted by my boss e-mailing me
[16:02] <robbiew> heh...because your boss was distracted by an employee irc'ing him ;)
[16:02] <robbiew> [TOPIC] i486/i586  for Karmic
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  i486/i586  for Karmic
[16:03] <robbiew> so...what's going on with this? Keybuk?
[16:03] <Keybuk> so, I've completed the tests
[16:03]  * mvo waves
[16:03] <doko> as there is no difference because we tune for generic anyway ... we can go forward
[16:04] <Keybuk> basically, there's a big difference between -march=i486 and -march=i586
[16:04] <Keybuk> because those on their own imply -mtune=i486 and -mtune=i586 respectively
[16:04] <Keybuk> but we don't build that way
[16:04] <Keybuk> we build (currently) -march=i486 -mtune=generic
[16:04] <Keybuk> and we tested against -march=i586 -mtune=generic
[16:04] <Keybuk> the *only* difference between these sets of options is the enablement of one additional instruction
[16:05] <Keybuk> -mtune=generic is basically "Assume I have a 686"
[16:05] <Keybuk> so there's no performance benefit to -march=i586
[16:05] <Keybuk> the separate question then is whether there's a sanity benefit
[16:05] <Keybuk> or a support benefit
[16:07] <Keybuk> what do people think?
[16:07] <liw> is there a performance penalty? is there a size difference?
[16:07] <Keybuk> nope, the only difference is you get an extra instruction
[16:07] <Keybuk> "compare and exchange 8 bytes"
[16:07] <Keybuk> that might give some performance benefit maybe
[16:08] <slangasek> if the only difference is a single instruction, I can't see how it matters from a support or sanity POV
[16:08] <liw> (might have mattered if it had been the dwim instruction)
[16:08] <robbiew> I agree...not really worth the effort IMO
[16:08] <doko> well, lets change and use it for marketing
[16:08] <robbiew> heh
[16:09] <Keybuk> fwiw. the only thing that -march=i686 enables is cmov
[16:09] <Keybuk> everything else is -mtune
[16:09] <Keybuk> -mtune=core2 does change things compared to -mtune=generic
[16:10] <doko> -mtune=core2 was proposed for lpia in the past
[16:10] <robbiew> is it possible that more benefits from i586 will come in the future?..making it a good idea to move now?
[16:10] <doko> but then again, it would require our build machines and live CD builds to support this
[16:10] <cjwatson> seems sort of unlikely that i586 would change a whole lot
[16:10] <doko> robbiew: doubtful
[16:10] <Keybuk> robbiew: from what I understand, nobody even cares about i586 now
[16:11] <Keybuk> if there's a chance that staying on i486 would incur regressions
[16:11] <Keybuk> then there's probably just as an equal chance that staying on i586 would too
[16:11] <Keybuk> since gcc's i386 port is basically assuming 686 these days
[16:11] <robbiew> so then I think our plan of action is clear...don't change
[16:12] <Keybuk> it wasn't a wasted effort
[16:12] <robbiew> any objections?
[16:12] <Keybuk> we proved that gcc 4.4 produces much faster executables
[16:12] <robbiew> Keybuk: agree
[16:12] <Keybuk> so that's clearly a win ;)
[16:12] <Keybuk> and we learned a lot about what -march and -mtune actually do
[16:13] <cjwatson> should we check some time before beta that we've actually rebuilt everything important with 4.4 over the course of the cycle?
[16:13] <Keybuk> cjwatson: how would we tell?
[16:13] <cjwatson> obviously the natural course of events will do that for most things but there are some packages that rarely change
[16:13] <cjwatson> Keybuk: whether the package has the same versions in jaunty and karmic
[16:13] <doko> Keybuk: by date of upload
[16:13] <cjwatson> that would be a decent first approximation
[16:13] <Keybuk> sounds like a sensible idea
[16:13] <cjwatson> and very easy to implement
[16:14] <Keybuk> fwiw. I'd be vaguely interested in comparing -march=i486/-mtune=generic against -march=i486/-mtune=core2 to see if that makes a difference, but that's obviously $somemorework
[16:15] <doko> Keybuk: in this case, maybe we should start thinking about not just -mtune, but sse2 math as well
[16:17] <slangasek> er
[16:17] <slangasek> sse2 math rules out a whole swath of processors
[16:17] <cjwatson> -mtune=core2 is presumably not a compatibility break, just pipelining changes and the like?
[16:17] <Keybuk> cjwatson: right
[16:17] <cjwatson> (in general I'm assuming that nobody has broken the assumption that -mtune doesn't break compatibility with older processors)
[16:18] <Keybuk> cjwatson: given the things it fiddles with, it does not appear to
[16:18] <doko> yes, but at some point we'll move forward with -march as well. when testing -mtune=core2, we should test on non core2 hw as well.
[16:18]  * robbiew agrees
[16:19] <Keybuk> doko: I couldn't find the SSE-related options
[16:20] <doko> Keybuk: -mfpmath=* -msse*
[16:20] <Keybuk> doko: ah, no I just found it
[16:21] <Keybuk> also implied by -march I see
[16:21] <robbiew> does the SSE stuff break compatibility for older archs?
[16:22] <Keybuk> yes
[16:23] <doko> we could use the lpia arch for experiments ...
[16:23]  * doko hides
[16:23] <robbiew> hmm
[16:23] <Keybuk> doko: could I get you to make a gcc with -mtune=core2 and put that in a PPA, and I'll get adam to build the archive snapshot based off that
[16:23]  * robbiew reminds folks that doko is on OEM this cycle ;)
[16:23] <doko> Keybuk: done
[16:23] <liw> is there a way to know if a binary uses sse instructions? could we run such executables under qemu if the host cpu doesn't support sse2? /me runs far, far away and hides really, really well
[16:23] <robbiew> so be careful on expectations
[16:24] <Keybuk> liw: we do that for libraries already
[16:24] <Keybuk> anyway, that's it for my topic ;)
[16:24] <robbiew> k
[16:24] <liw> Keybuk, we run libraries under qmeu?
[16:25] <Keybuk> liw: we have alternate versions installed
[16:25] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Karmic Alpha 3 deliverables
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Alpha 3 deliverables
[16:26] <doko> Keybuk: hmm, I currently don't see yet that -mfpmath=sse is implied by -march
[16:26] <robbiew> evand: usb-creator for windows still good?
[16:26] <cjwatson> (/lib/i686/cmov/sse/teleportcapablecpu/libc.so.6)
[16:26] <evand> robbiew: ja
[16:26] <robbiew> sweet
[16:26]  * robbiew can make davidm a little happier :)
[16:27] <Keybuk> doko:
[16:27] <Keybuk>       {"core2", PROCESSOR_CORE2, (PTA_64BIT
[16:27] <Keybuk>                                   | PTA_MMX | PTA_SSE | PTA_SSE2 | PTA_SSE3
[16:27] <Keybuk>                                   | PTA_SSSE3
[16:27] <Keybuk>                                   | PTA_CX16)},
[16:27] <robbiew> cjwatson: Server Installer improvements still good for Alpha 3?
[16:27] <Keybuk> cjwatson: "teleport capable" ?! :p
[16:28] <cjwatson> robbiew: online help done, LVM config improvements committed though not uploaded, RAID config improvements nearly done (current object of blood sweat tears), crypto config improvements to come but I have a pattern to follow now
[16:28] <cjwatson> so I think that's still on track
[16:28] <robbiew> ok..sounds good to me, thanks :)
[16:28] <cjwatson> (I want to get all the config improvements done and upload them at once, otherwise the intermediate state is going to be really confusing for people)
[16:29] <robbiew> ack
[16:29] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
[16:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
[16:29] <mterry> robbiew, rsyslog is going through MIR, there was a snag, I'm looking into it
[16:29] <doko> Keybuk: imo still uses 387 math by default, will check later ...
[16:29] <robbiew> mterry: ok..thnx
[16:30] <robbiew> I sent the report...so folks should know where they stand
[16:31] <robbiew> Keybuk..ah hem...lol
[16:31] <Keybuk> robbiew: I sponsored the same amount as the majority of the kernel team ;)
[16:31] <robbiew> lol
[16:31] <robbiew> indeed
[16:31] <Keybuk> not to mention the majority of the community team
[16:32] <robbiew> as a team..I'm not at all concerned with our level of sponsorship
[16:32] <cjwatson> majority of community team don't have upload rights, I ought to note ;)
[16:32] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Objectives
[16:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Objectives
[16:32] <robbiew> the PDR tool is apparently broken (surprise!)
[16:33] <robbiew> nigelp is checking into it...but you can send them to me via email
[16:33] <cjwatson> right
[16:33] <slangasek> email> drat, I was hoping for an extension :)
[16:34] <robbiew> it's already almost half way through the cycle
[16:34] <robbiew> ;)
[16:34] <slangasek> what better way to set your objectives than by documenting what you've already done
[16:34] <robbiew> lol
[16:35] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Good news
[16:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Good news
[16:35] <robbiew> Hardy/Jaunty are LSB 4.0 compliant
[16:35] <robbiew> woot!
[16:35] <Keybuk> robbiew: I released Upstart 0.6.0
[16:35] <mvo> kernel-crashdump may make it for alpha-3 (depends on if the new apport gets uploaded before or not)
[16:35] <cjwatson> mterry landed the oem-config/ubiquity merge
[16:36] <mterry> oh yeah!  rock on me
[16:36] <doko> openjdk-6 certification mail finally sent
[16:37] <robbiew> mvo: cool!
[16:37] <robbiew> mterry: suhweet!
[16:37] <robbiew> and big "hell yeah" for doko! :P
[16:37] <robbiew> Keybuk gets a "yay!" lol
[16:38] <cjwatson> ... furthermore, people's systems largely still seem to boot with upstart 0.6.0 ;-)
[16:38] <Keybuk> "largely"? :)
[16:38] <robbiew> oh...I guess Good News for Keybuk is that I got one of two Mini 10vs for him
[16:38] <cjwatson> heh
[16:38] <robbiew> Ice Blue...ooooo
[16:39] <Keybuk> robbiew: that's not a computer game ;)
[16:40] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:40] <robbiew> anyone else have stuff ?
[16:40] <robbiew> going once....
[16:40] <robbiew> twice.....
[16:41] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:41.
[16:41] <robbiew> thanks! :)
[16:41] <evand> thanks
[16:41] <mvo> thanks
[16:41] <al-maisan> thanks!
[16:41] <liw> gracias
[16:41] <doko> robbiew, cjwatson: would you mind if I just upload eglibc-2.9 and some archive admin accepts it by chance?
[17:58] <davmor2> hello
[17:58] <pedro_> hola folks!
[17:58] <charlie-tca> Hello
[17:58]  * pedro_ hugs the qa team
[17:59] <bdmurray> hi!
[17:59] <heno> hey folks
[18:00]  * fader_ waves.
[18:00] <eeejay_> Howdy
[18:00] <ara> hello
[18:01] <schwuk> hi
[18:01] <sbeattie> hey
[18:01] <heno> ok, let's start
[18:02] <heno> #startmeeting
[18:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is heno.
[18:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:02] <heno> we have various people back from travels and sprinting today
[18:02] <heno> welcome back pedro_, ara, eeejay, cr3, fader_
[18:02] <pedro_> thanks!
[18:03] <ara> heno, thanks!
[18:03]  * fader_ waves again :)
[18:03] <eeejay> thank you
[18:03] <heno> ara: I hear your GCDS presentation went well!
[18:04] <ara> heno, yes, people didn't fall asleep, at least :D
[18:04] <heno> and pedro_ gave some bugsquad talks I understand
[18:05] <heno> I think Ubuntu QA was well represented :)
[18:05] <pedro_> heno: yeap one at the Guadec and other at the Guadec-ES ;-)
[18:05] <heno> let's jump in:
[18:05] <heno> [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
[18:05] <pedro_> I don't have highlights from previous weeks but...
[18:06] <heno> (from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings)
[18:06] <pedro_> tomorrow, yes tomorrow we're celebrating a hug day based on synaptic
[18:06] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090716
[18:06] <pedro_> the product is a *bit* untidy right now
[18:07] <pedro_> we hope for the end of the hug day to have everything in a much better shape
[18:07] <mvo> pedro_++
[18:07] <heno> sounds good!
[18:08] <pedro_> as you see some people started to work already, so if you have a few minutes during the day, please help us, mvo will give you an ice cream at next uds ;-)
[18:08] <heno> hey mvo :)
[18:08] <mvo> hey heno
[18:08] <mvo> much ice cream!
[18:08] <pedro_> \o/
[18:08] <bdmurray> ice cream in November?
[18:09] <heno> while we have mvo here should we mention the package testing spec?
[18:09] <davmor2> bdmurray: it might be australia then you wouldn't mind :)
[18:09] <heno> fader_, sbeattie ^
[18:09] <fader_> heno: From my perspective I think we are done with the qa package testing spec -- conflictchecker is running and producing results
[18:10] <heno> I understand conflict checker is running and it's ready for phase 2
[18:10] <fader_> I believe at this point we can hand it off for more development
[18:11] <sbeattie> yes, output is at http://conflictchecker.ubuntu.com
[18:11]  * mvo hugs sbeattie for making it work again
[18:11] <heno> OK, we'll let the foundations team work on it for a while
[18:11] <heno> I guess QA will end up running it in the end though
[18:12] <heno> [TOPIC] 8.04.3 testing status
[18:12] <davmor2> tested
[18:12] <heno> server still has some missing tests
[18:12] <sbeattie> as davmor said, isos have been tested. I did a sanity dapper->hardy upgrade test.
[18:13] <heno> do we worry about those?
[18:13] <fader_> We've also seen pretty good results in the automated testing.  No failures yet, though some machines weren't tested.  I'm going through those and kicking off installs right now.
[18:13] <sbeattie> two are jeos which didn't get respun
[18:13] <heno> fader_: What did you say the status of ESX 8.04 testing was?
[18:13] <davmor2> heno: I think they weren't available options in hardy but are in latter versions
[18:14] <fader_> heno: We got a successful test on VMWare 32-bit.  I'm also going to run the test on 64-bit, both single and dual-proc machines.
[18:14] <sbeattie> davmor2: hrm, tomcat wasn't, but you should still be able to raid and crypted lvm, iirc.
[18:14] <fader_> (I'm having some issues getting to the vmware environment right now so hopefully they Just Work.  Otherwise it will take me a while to troubleshoot.)
[18:14] <heno> ok, thanks
[18:14] <davmor2> sbeattie: I leave server to the server team :)
[18:15] <sbeattie> davmor2: heh
[18:15] <sbeattie> oh right, virtualization host was another tasksel option that got added post hardy
[18:15] <davmor2> I just know it has more tests now than it did when hardy was out :)
[18:16] <heno> that's the end of the agenda
[18:16] <heno> any other topics?
[18:16] <sbeattie> the remaining SRU for hardy is bug 328874
[18:16] <davmor2> I've been testing empathy as it is on todays cd
[18:17] <davmor2> I encourage everyone else to also it has faults :)
[18:17] <sbeattie> I've spent a large amount of time trying to setup an environment to reproduce it, but haven't been successful.
[18:17] <bdmurray> sbeattie: it's been tested thoroughly in a later release though right?
[18:17] <pedro_> davmor2: would be nice if you could test the msn support while using empathy, most of complains from users are coming from that side
[18:18] <davmor2> pedro_: biggest is the lack of file sharing from what I see
[18:18] <davmor2> 2.27.4 got released today and has some major fixes in
[18:19] <sbeattie> bdmurray: the later versions are significantly different, upstream okayed the fix for hardy, but didn't release a fix for it themselves, having moved on to newer code.
[18:19] <bdmurray> sbeattie: I've read slangasek's comments now and I'm squared away
[18:19] <davmor2> so it would be nice to get that version on the cd or ppa so we can see what's been fixed
[18:19] <sbeattie> One last SRU item: thanks to  Aitor Moreno, ilya-almametov, Toby Collett, Kenyon Ralph, Jisakiel, Alex Muntada, pablomme, Miklos Juhasz, Garry Dolley, exe, and Lex Ross for testing SRUs this week.
[18:21]  * heno makes note to add the regular SRU topic back in - not sure why that fell off
[18:21] <heno> while I'm at it: bdmurray: any news on bug-control?
[18:22] <bdmurray> Yes, we've had one new member approved Bryan McLellan who is interested in server packages.  He'd applied a bit ago and his application was overlooked.
[18:24] <heno> great, we should hook him up with a mentor on the server team
[18:25] <heno> any other business?
[18:25] <ara> daily testing?
[18:26] <heno> cr3 has it on his todo list to deploy, but the metrics based attachment is ahead on the list
[18:27] <heno> I believe checkbox-cert needs some adjustments to run as user
[18:27] <heno> cr3: correct?
[18:27] <cr3> heno: yep
[18:28] <cr3> ara: I believe I have already informed you about this in #ubuntu-testing, did you want to ask anything else about daily testing?
[18:28] <ara> cr3, no, nothing really, just to know what were ahead
[18:29] <heno> cr3: where are we on opening some cert pages to the public
[18:29] <heno> ?
[18:29] <heno> fader_ would like some disk views at least for the release meeting
[18:29] <heno> cr3: is it a fairly simple change?
[18:29] <cr3> heno: I haven't touched code in over a week, I feel like I've been on vacation and lost track of when things will be deployed
[18:30] <heno> The Montreal test lab has moved house this week
[18:30] <heno> for everyone's info
[18:30] <heno> so lots of packing and un-packing for cr3 :)
[18:31] <cr3> heno: it is the ramifications of having some public pages potentially contain links to private pages which is where the complexity lies.
[18:31] <heno> understood
[18:31] <cr3> heno: technically speaking, opening up pages is just a matter of changing the acl's in the model and view layers which is rather trivial
[18:32] <heno> fader_: can start by distributing screenshots :)
[18:32] <fader_> heno: roger wilco :)
[18:32] <heno> I think we're done
[18:32] <heno> #endmeeting
[18:32] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:32.
[18:32] <davmor2> cr3: can you not just lose the links on the public one and only have them visible on the canonical version?
[18:32] <heno> thanks everyone!
[18:32] <davmor2> thanks
[18:33] <ara> thanks!