=== asac_ is now known as asac
EruditeHermitasac, fta; I just tested it with the new mesa and an intel card. It works amazingly well00:34
EruditeHermitI am very impressed00:34
ftanew mesa? which one? newer than karmic?00:52
EruditeHermitfta: mesa 7.6 in xorg edgers00:53
EruditeHermitor I guess you can compile yourself if you want to00:53
EruditeHermitbasically mesa 7.600:53
EruditeHermitits really nice00:54
EruditeHermitfta: what card do you have and do you have a 64bit system?01:10
BUGabundoI do01:10
EruditeHermitBUGabundo: have you tried o3d?01:10
EruditeHermitdo you use nvidia drivers?01:11
asacEruditeHermit: the plugin crashed my browser on first try ;)01:12
asacfirst it complained that "text is not yet supported on linux"01:12
asacthen it somewhat worked and when i hit back it crashed01:12
EruditeHermitwhat card?01:12
EruditeHermitand 64bit?01:12
EruditeHermitit worked here01:12
EruditeHermitpretty well01:12
EruditeHermiton intel01:13
asacwell maybe it was just the example i used ;)01:13
asaci sued it in ffox 3.501:13
asacused ;)01:13
EruditeHermitdon't do the tropics demo01:13
EruditeHermitthat is intense01:13
EruditeHermittry a simpler demo01:13
EruditeHermittropics demo didn't crash for me but it didn't render everything01:13
asacEruditeHermit: anyway. after our talk i really got the ati thing work with compiz ;) - at last01:14
asacso i feel a bit more happy ;)01:14
EruditeHermithow did you do it?01:15
asacxorg.conf had some stuff ... removed it completely01:15
asacand disbled composition_manager in metacity ;)01:15
asacobvious now, but far from obvious for me ;)01:15
asacnobody really complained about my xorg.conf before ;)01:16
BUGabundoyou should have asked01:16
EruditeHermitasac: next thing I was going to ask you to do is to give me Xorg.0.log01:16
BUGabundoI would have told you to have a blank xorg.conf on JJ01:16
asacso i am testing ping pong01:16
EruditeHermitand that might have given me clues that your xorg.conf was messed up01:16
asacclick here ... nothing happens ;)01:17
EruditeHermitI tried it on the same card01:17
EruditeHermitand it worked01:17
EruditeHermitI think its problems with mesa btw01:18
EruditeHermitnot with o3d itself01:18
asacprince IO works01:18
asachmm ... now it says please wait ... loading ...01:18
EruditeHermitoh the files are large01:18
EruditeHermitthe downloads are large01:18
asaci can wait a bit, but i think its broken01:19
asaci am loading the samples.zip now01:21
EruditeHermitwhen mesa 7.6 is more stable, then we'll know where the problems are01:21
asaci am running that01:21
asacthe edgers stuff01:21
EruditeHermityeah I know01:22
EruditeHermitbut as I said01:22
EruditeHermitits not stable yet01:22
EruditeHermitso I'm not sure if its mesa that is causing crashes or o3d01:22
asacit doesnt crash01:23
asacit just doesnt work ;)01:23
asacat lesat not perfectly for the samles01:23
asacthe odd thing is that in the samples.zip nothing works01:23
asacthough the other demos on the site started at least01:23
EruditeHermitthe ping pong demo worked flawlessly here01:23
EruditeHermitas did the box01:23
EruditeHermitand the simple demos01:24
EruditeHermitthe picking demo01:24
EruditeHermitasac: what timezone are you in?01:24
EruditeHermitwow its late there01:24
asacso i will drop out now ;)01:24
asac2:24 am ;)01:24
EruditeHermitasac: if you want we can debug it tomorrow01:25
EruditeHermitbut we are making progress01:25
asacwell. i might not really have time for that in the next few days.01:26
BUGabundo1:30 am here01:26
BUGabundoneed to be up at 7:30 for work01:26
asacEruditeHermit: so what libs does it depend on? v8, what else?01:26
BUGabundorsync isn't even on 20 % :(01:26
EruditeHermitBUGabundo: did you try o3d with amd64?01:27
asaci mean google libs not in the archive ;)01:27
EruditeHermitasac: libCg01:27
asacwhat is that01:27
BUGabundoEruditeHermit: no01:27
EruditeHermitasac: nvidia shader01:27
EruditeHermitshading library01:27
asacEruditeHermit: is that used only by o3d or by something else as well?01:27
EruditeHermitits used by a lot of proprietary game engines01:27
EruditeHermitits used by nvidia to make video drivers01:27
asacbut its completely abi/api unstable?01:28
EruditeHermitthey convert GLSL to nvidia Cg01:28
asacor why isnt that in the archive?01:28
EruditeHermitits proprietary01:28
asacits proprietary even? ouch01:28
EruditeHermitit IS in the archive01:28
EruditeHermitsort of01:28
EruditeHermitits like flash01:28
EruditeHermitthere is a package that downloads and installs it in the archive01:28
asacthen why cant we use that lib instead of the one that is shipped in the o3d package now?01:28
EruditeHermityou can01:28
EruditeHermitjust add a dependency01:28
asacso that cant even be shipped in ppas to be honest afaik01:29
EruditeHermityeah I was wondering why you packaged it like that01:29
asacis that at least freely redistributable?01:29
EruditeHermitI mean its nice that you did01:29
asacor not even that?01:29
EruditeHermitit is freely redistributable01:29
EruditeHermitI think01:29
EruditeHermitbut we'd have to check01:29
asacnah ... i didnt. and we have to change that i guess01:29
asaci just didnt know its non-free01:29
asacdepends on whether its distribuable and mirrorable01:29
asacso i think if it could stay in multiverse it might be ok. but _might_ ;)01:30
EruditeHermitthis package is in there01:30
asacbut does that ship the .so?01:30
asaccant we use that so directly?01:30
EruditeHermitI think you can redistribute it01:31
EruditeHermitbut I don't know if Ubuntu allows that01:31
asacwell depends on the license of that toolkit01:32
asaci will put it on my list. but even if its suitable for multiverse it would require an exception01:32
asacso better depend on the cg-toolkit01:32
asacEruditeHermit: so is the so needed during build time?01:32
asacor do you have a glue or something?01:32
EruditeHermitits needed to build01:33
asacwhich makes it even more complicated :(01:33
EruditeHermitfta said he knew someone in google working on this01:35
EruditeHermityou should ask them to use GLSL shaders01:35
EruditeHermitthey support HLSL which is microsoft01:35
EruditeHermitDirectX 1001:35
EruditeHermitand Nvidia Cg01:35
EruditeHermitthey should support GLSL too01:35
EruditeHermitand make it open source able01:35
asacGLSL shaders are free software?01:38
EruditeHermitits part of the OpenGL spec01:39
asacwhich lib is that?01:39
EruditeHermitGL is a shading language01:39
EruditeHermitthe drivers support it01:40
EruditeHermitmesa in the case of open source01:40
EruditeHermitasac: type glxinfo into a terminal01:40
EruditeHermityou'll see it says something like OpenGL 2.1 GLSL 1.2001:40
asacnope ;)01:41
asac(on ati) ;)01:41
EruditeHermitdo it with the intel card01:41
EruditeHermitor try this on the radeon01:41
asaci believe you01:41
asacjust want to understand01:41
EruditeHermitLIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true glxinfo01:42
asacstill nothing ;)01:42
asacanyway. thats not the point01:42
asacso libCg basically is a middleware so apps dont need to speak GLSL, etc. on their own, right?01:43
EruditeHermitwell its another shading language01:43
* BUGabundo Ta na hora da Caminha, bamos la deitar.... \n bed time. cu tomorrow01:43
EruditeHermittechnically it doesn't need GLSL at all01:43
asacEruditeHermit: yes. but libCg maps it to GLSL and other01:43
asacor is that wrong?01:44
EruditeHermitbut in the nvidia drivers what they did was map all GLSL calls to Cg01:44
EruditeHermitimagine that they already wrote a windows driver that used Cg01:44
EruditeHermitthen for Linux, they just translated GLSL calls to Cg01:44
EruditeHermitso that they supported GLSL on Linux01:44
EruditeHermitthats for their drivers01:44
EruditeHermitbut you can program directly in Cg01:45
EruditeHermitif you wanted01:45
asacand why did o3d go for libCg ... because its platform independent?01:45
EruditeHermitwell thats one reason01:45
EruditeHermitbut then so is GLSL01:45
EruditeHermitGLSL is just a spec01:45
EruditeHermitthat every vendor implements01:45
asacbut its opengl01:45
EruditeHermitits opengl01:46
asacand on windows drivers are better at directx isnt that the case?01:46
EruditeHermitthey probably chose Cg because its more advanced01:46
EruditeHermiton windows most drivers do both directx and opengl01:46
EruditeHermitinfact most windows drivers have pretty good opengl support01:46
asacyes. but from what i understood opengl support is usually inferior (still)01:46
EruditeHermitbetter than linux open source drivers by miles01:46
asacthats not hard i guess ;)01:46
EruditeHermitwell I think they do everything that is possible01:47
EruditeHermitATI and Nvidia both support OpenGL on all their cards01:47
EruditeHermitto whatever level the hardware supports01:47
EruditeHermitso their newest cards support OpenGL 3.001:47
EruditeHermitolder cards support 2.101:47
EruditeHermitI didn01:48
EruditeHermitI didn't understand why they chose HLSL and Cg over GLSL01:48
EruditeHermitif they wanted an open source tool01:49
asaci think they dont care about distributability and opensource01:49
asacso they solely decide based on technical arguments01:49
asacwhich is wrong approach - at least it already blocks most apps they develop from entering the archive that they dont think about it.01:49
asacwrong approach (from distro point of view)01:50
EruditeHermityes you can distribute nvidia cg on Linux01:51
EruditeHermitthe library01:51
EruditeHermityou just can't change the binary in any way01:51
asacwhy is the binary then not shipped in the nvidia-cg- package01:51
ubottuUbuntu bug 284750 in nvidia-cg-toolkit "License change, time to package it up" [Undecided,Confirmed]01:51
EruditeHermitthen you can depend on it01:52
EruditeHermitand build stuff01:52
EruditeHermitbut its still not ideal01:52
asacright. but its hard to attract folks to care for stuff in multiverse01:52
asacand its always calling for trouble01:53
EruditeHermittalk to your contact at google01:53
EruditeHermitmaybe they will bend01:54
asacsomething breaks -> you are lost01:54
asaci dont think so ;)01:54
EruditeHermitthey might01:54
EruditeHermitthey can just add the option01:54
asacquestion is if they still want to put resources into o3d01:54
EruditeHermitI think they do01:54
EruditeHermitI was using canvas3d until now01:54
EruditeHermitcanvas3d is mozillas version01:55
EruditeHermitit uses OpenGL ES01:55
asacis that any better?01:55
EruditeHermitthe license is free01:55
EruditeHermitthe plugin itself is ok, but the javascript library it uses is slower01:56
asacyeah. but thats tracemonkey now and will improve01:56
EruditeHermitit was slow to the point where I could not use it01:56
asacv8 doesnt even work on amd6401:56
EruditeHermittracemonkey doesn't01:56
asacit doesnt?01:56
asacat least it claims to do jit compiling ;)01:57
EruditeHermiton 32bit yes01:57
EruditeHermitatleast it doesn't for firefox 3.501:57
asacwhy do you think that?01:57
EruditeHermitthey may have started porting it over01:57
asaci havent heard of that01:57
EruditeHermiti talked to vlad01:57
asaccould be that i have overheard that01:57
EruditeHermitthe one whos blog you read01:58
EruditeHermitI talked to guys at mozilla and they turned it off for 64bit01:58
asacturned it off ... i have the switch turned on here at least01:59
asacso either the switch doesnt do anything or its on01:59
asacanyway. what matters is that it works ;)02:00
asacpersonally i have things to critize about libmozjs as well ;)02:01
asacso v8 or mozjs isnt that a big difference. just that you cant run v8 on 64-bit yet properly02:01
asacboth are currently not suitable for main exposure ;) but i think mozjs will be first if any that can be linked against without feeling dirty02:06
EruditeHermitbut thats recent02:11
EruditeHermitjuly 802:11
asacok off for real now02:16
nareshovfta - no flock for jaunty in your ppa? :/06:22
micahghi asac09:01
asachi micahg09:02
micahgwe had someone submit a rant report in firefox-3.509:02
micahgbug 39951709:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 399517 in firefox-3.5 "Usability: Rename Shiretoko to firefox 3.5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39951709:02
=== ripps_ is now known as ripps
micahgasac: ^^^09:35
micahgalso, can we move bugs to the firefox-3.6 package yet?09:36
asacmicahg: no. we dont have any 3.6 package. why?09:56
asacare there bugs reported that are only in 3.6?09:56
=== nareshov is now known as naresh
ftaasac, when ended up of that o3d discussion with EruditeHermit?10:39
ftai read we need mesa 7.6, but what for? intel? ati?10:40
asacfta: the discussion ended in the situation where I found out that libCg.so isnt even free software ;)10:42
ftait's not?10:42
asacfta: he said you are talking with google about moving that to GLSL ?10:42
ftaam i?10:42
asacfta: no its a proprietary binary from nvidia ... which might now be suitable for multiverse (previously it wasnt as the nvidia-cg- package is just an installer package)10:43
asacbug 28475010:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 284750 in nvidia-cg-toolkit "License change, time to package it up" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/28475010:44
ftadamn, i thought i was dropping all binaries10:45
asacfta: we should definitly raise this with the o3d authors.10:45
asacif we are not even able to put it in the archive, then all we can do is provude a o3d-plugin-installer package that also downloads the manually built .so files etc.10:45
asacmessy for sure10:45
asaci get the feeling that whatever google does, they do it in a way where they only have "we distribute on our own like on windows" in mind;)10:47
ftai think there's no evil plan there, it's just that they don't care about all that, they want to ship something that just works10:49
asacfta: right. i didnt say evilplan its just that they only think about distributing on their own ;)11:06
asacand only decide based on technical reasoning11:06
asacnot whether this can go into distros etc.11:07
asacyes, like the launchpad bug says; at least you can redistribute it. problem is that a) it would be multiverse - so probably needs an exception for PPA and b) usually blobs work fine until at some point there are problems and there is no way to fix them ;) - which is why most maintainers get turned off when it comes to maintaining those11:12
asacanyway, erudite... mentioned they might be willing to adapt GLSL directly ... which would be a good solution11:13
asacwe should at least raise this11:14
asacsigh ... ppas are idle, but dont start building my trunk NM stuff :(11:28
asacfta: is the v8 package dead?11:32
asacalso in state: too quickly progressing to be useful for chromium as system lib?11:33
ftaasac, i don't know, debian wanted to do it, and i'm not using mine at the moment, now that i have o3d and chromium, it would make sense11:33
ftabut if o3d is not distributable, and chromium is moving too fast with v8-tip, i don't see the point11:33
asaci have the feeling that having it in archive is worthwhile. if you want i can drive this. are there any problems with licensing and blobs in the source that you know of?11:35
ftaiirc, chromium has a weekly sync of v811:35
asacfta: i think o3d is distributable ... just in multiverse ... and in ppa we need to get an exception (which i would believe is ok unless someone has concerns with the new license)11:35
ftai'm trying to ping the o3d dev11:36
asacfta: maybe invite him to join this channel ;)11:36
asacor is there a o3d channel?11:36
asacanyway, i think having v8 package recovered from the dead might help us to understand how bad the weekly updates are wrt API/ABI ... which is probably the most important point we want to understand now11:37
asacif you want i can drive this (as i also have to do something about mozjs as it seems :()11:38
ftaasac, ok, do it11:38
asaci guess get-orig-source and stuff should still work?11:38
asacfta: http://paste.ubuntu.com/218793/ ... any clue without looking?11:41
asacseems it tries to grep in the code for the version or something11:41
asacand ends up picking some c++ code ;)11:41
asacgos-pack ... isnt that an upstream target?11:42
ftawrong get-orig-source variable somewhere, (grep/sed/whatever)11:43
asacgos-pack: VERSION  = $(shell grep -A1 v8::V8::GetVersion $(TMP_DIR)/src/src/api.cc | tail -1 | cut -d\" -f2)~svn$(REVISION)11:43
asacoh ... thats actually what the guy proposed to change i think11:43
ftayes, but it's ugly11:44
asaclooks reasonable11:44
asacuglier than grepping in api.cc?11:44
ftai mean 6 lines to do that11:44
asacso rather one line sedding?11:46
asacguess that will be pretty hard to read ;)11:46
asaclets check the api.cc ;)11:46
ftai can do it i guess11:49
asachmm. the  Version::GetSONAME doesnt really give me hope11:54
ftagrep -E '^#define (MAJOR|MINOR|BUILD)_(VERSION|NUMBER)' src/version.cc | awk '{ print $3 }' | tr '\n' '.' | sed -e 's/\.$//'11:54
asac#define SONAME            ""11:55
asac#define SONAME            ""11:55
ftahold on11:55
asacdo you know where scons sets SONAME (and how during build?)11:56
asacok great11:59
asacso we just cannot build trunk11:59
asaconly branches11:59
asacwhich is ok i guess11:59
asacyes. but from the bug it seems they do it now ... only on branches11:59
asacwhich is good news11:59
asaclets check if they did it on 1.2 branch too11:59
asacthey backed it out12:00
asacgot it12:10
asacits available in 1.212:10
ftaso did debian give up?12:14
asaci dont know12:15
asaci think someone needs to drive it12:15
asacand tell them that we rather want to share our branches12:15
asacinstead of copying stuff to git and stuff ;)12:15
asacfta: should we only checkout src/ directory or why is there src/src/ in my tarball but not in your grep?12:18
asacfta: any idea how we can figure the soname used without building?12:20
asacwonder if we should create the control file on the fly, guessing the soname and appending it to the libv8 name12:21
ftamy grep is from my chromium branch12:21
asacwhy do you need the v8 versio nthere?12:21
asacon your chromium branch12:21
asacyou probably dont use the v8 version in the source version at least12:22
ftanowhere. i just created the cmd line using my chromium branch, which is up-to-date, while my v8 branch is old12:22
asachmm. the thing doesnt seem to append the date for me to the snapshot12:23
fta<asac> gos-pack: VERSION  = $(shell grep -A1 v8::V8::GetVersion $(TMP_DIR)/src/src/api.cc | tail -1 | cut -d\" -f2)~svn$(REVISION)12:23
asache i messed it up12:24
asacjust saw that ;)12:24
* asac is too botty12:24
* gnomefreak just spent last ~15 minutes talking to my coffee pot12:24
gnomefreakanyone else using tbird3 notice that the scroll bar for incoming mail starts at the bottom?12:26
asacgnomefreak: thats just because you ordered it that way12:28
asacif you change the date order to have latest on top it should start on top12:29
gnomefreakok lets find out if that works. thanks12:30
ftaasac, i have #define SONAME "" in chromium, so scons will not add any soname12:30
asacfta: right. thats probably correct for the in-source built12:30
asacfta: but that .so should be shipped in pkglibdir (in case its not)12:31
gnomefreak!info firefox-3.012:32
ubottufirefox-3.0 (source: firefox-3.0): safe and easy web browser from Mozilla. In component main, is optional. Version 3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 (jaunty), package size 866 kB, installed size 3456 kB12:33
asac      env.Default('sample')12:34
asac+   if env['install']:12:34
asac+     env.Default('install')12:34
fta"safe and easy" lol12:34
asacfta: any particular reaons why you didnt use elif there?12:34
asacyeah. updates to package description welcome ;)12:35
asacok lets see if the build explodes ;)12:35
asacsrc/handles-inl.h:50: error: dereferencing pointer '<anonymous>' does break strict-aliasing rules12:36
asacgot a patch for that in chromium?12:36
ftadisable Werror or build with gcc 4.3 :(12:37
asacupstream bug filed?12:38
ftaif you fix the warning, it crashes12:39
ftaso we ended up hiding it instead :(12:40
ftai'm still building chromium with gcc 4.3, maybe i should retry 4.412:40
asacguess we shoujld use that instea of Wno-error12:41
asacand only for the file affected if possible :)12:41
asacdoes Scons honour CXXFLAGS?12:41
asacseems it does ... lets hope the order is ok now12:42
ftai used -Wno-error because gcc likes to catch new stuff every few days, and as it's not the same tree, it blocks chromium for days/weeks, so i have to add patches, which rot quickly12:42
ftain the jaunty days, i convinced google to setup a builder with gcc 4.3 (as they build with 4.2 by default)12:43
ftano, we would need another builder with 4.4 :P12:43
asacbut i guess the same reasoning doesnt apply here12:44
asacdo you at least only remove error for v8 lib etc.?12:44
ftathat's what i have12:46
ftahm, does v8 use gyp at all? i mean outside of chromium12:47
asaci dont think it does12:47
asaccommitted it12:47
asacto branch12:47
asacoh i also need http://paste.ubuntu.com/218853/ if those are not set, right?12:48
asacor will += work if its not yet set?12:48
gnomefreakasac: fta do you happen to know what size icon is used for firefox or tbird? 50x50 or 128x128?12:48
asacgnomefreak: depends12:49
asacgnomefreak: there are various sizes now in 3.512:49
asac48x48 14x14 28x28 and 256x256 at least ... maybe even 10x1012:49
asacnot so sure12:49
asacjust check the package pngs12:49
gnomefreakasac: sorry i meant what size we use for firefox*12:50
ftaasac, += works fine if its not set12:53
asacreally? odd. it didnt work for me with fakeroot debian/rules binary12:54
asacbut worked with debuild12:55
asacwell debuild and dpkg-buildpackage set CXX and CFLAGS12:56
asacfaeroot ./debian/rules binary is running the target manually12:56
asacthat works12:56
ftaer? just add the export, not that shellish thing12:57
asacright i will uncommit that then12:58
bluekujahi all13:14
asachi... let me check your stuff now13:17
bluekujaok, great, thanks alex13:17
asacbluekuja: how about using a valid email for committing ;)? checkout bzr log13:20
bluekujaasac, yeah, it uses my login details13:21
bluekujaasac, like myname@computername13:21
asacfix that in future13:21
asaci breaks my heart13:21
asacyou cannot even click on it in launchpad and get to your account13:21
asacbluekuja: it downloaded the orig from the upstream ftp location for cgmail ... instead of using the upstream branch. is that ok with you?13:22
bluekujaasac, yeah, it's the same13:22
bluekujaasac, I didnt touch upstream files at all13:22
bluekujaasac, so getting them from upstream or my branch is the same13:22
asacbluekuja: please use debcommit -r to do a release ... that just updates changelog and adds a tag13:23
bluekujaasac, it uses a watch file that's why13:23
asachelps to spot which revision was uploaded as which version13:23
bluekujaasac, debcommit -r to the candicate release for upload?13:23
bluekuja* candidate13:23
asacbluekuja: for every package upload13:25
bluekujaasac, ok13:25
asaclike you commit and commit and for the release you run debcommit -r once13:25
asacok both uploaded13:25
bluekujaasac, thanks a lot13:25
bluekujaim going to the sea this evening13:25
asacplease fix email in bzr for future13:25
bluekujaI will, thanks13:26
bluekujaasac, one package is missing, I'll fix it as soon as I get back (it failed to build on gcc 4.4 cause missing includes)13:26
bluekujaso easy fix13:26
asacthats why i asked you to submit all ;)13:26
asaci really have no time ... so doing in a batch is the only thing i can do ;)13:27
bluekujaasac, yeah, sorry, had a busy time this two days, so I couldnt fix it13:27
asacits ok. you just have to wait13:27
asaclonger than this time for sure13:27
gnomefreakok lets hope this works :)13:27
asac(i gave you fast track because you)13:27
bluekujaasac, THANKS a lot13:28
asacbluekuja: then you shouldnt have send me the other branches. i asked you to give me all ;) ... but well. just dont bug me if it takes a week or so13:28
bluekujaasac, yeah, anyway next time I gonna send you all stuff13:28
bluekujaasac, so you can process them all in one time13:28
asacok. maybe wait for the next pacakge a bit and see if you need to update any of the other packages13:29
asaclike there might be new bug reports13:29
bluekujaasac, gonna fix it on the branch only13:29
asacor people complaining that their bugs are not fixed yet etc.13:29
bluekujaasac, can I ask you something private? I write u a mail13:29
bluekujaasac, please answer me there when you have a second13:30
asacbluekuja: sure. but might take a while if its not trivial13:33
gnomefreakasac: ok uploaded sunbird with some other fixes to PPA, lets see what happens :)13:38
gnomefreakok getting real tiresd of the amount of ubuntuone bugs and i cant remember where to unsubscribe13:39
bluekujaasac, sent13:39
gnomefreakvery little bug work seems to have been done since yesterday at this time13:43
gnomefreaki might gottem ~12 bugs in my email in 24 hours not including ubuntuone bugs13:45
asacgood for you ;)13:48
asacmaybe launchpad has a mail problem and you will all at once at some point ;)13:48
gnomefreakasac: i asked in Ubuntuone but this is really weird and hope to get it fixed but if not ill find it sooner or later :)13:52
gnomefreakasac: do the arm fixes in sunbird and other bug work meet SRU requirments? at least for the 0.9 releases we pushed13:54
gnomefreakim not real sure how supported armel is but i dont think its all that important to have the fixes sent <Karmic13:56
gnomefreakasac: who is working on bluez? it failed to upgrade?14:13
ftahm, not sure i should dist-upgrade upstart...14:13
ftaThe following packages will be REMOVED:14:13
fta  startup-tasks system-services upstart-compat-sysv upstart-logd14:13
ftaThe following packages will be upgraded:14:13
fta  upstart14:13
fta1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 4 to remove and 0 not upgraded.14:13
gnomefreakfta: dont14:13
gnomefreakyou can install the other held back packages14:14
gnomefreakfta: seems depends issues14:14
gnomefreakfta: i lied you cant install the others.14:14
ftabrb, reboot14:14
gnomefreakfta: the devicedisks... package you can install if its held back14:15
ftai just have upstart left14:15
gnomefreakyeah leave that14:16
gnomefreakyou have to love when this happens:14:17
gnomefreakinvoke-rc.d: initscript bluetooth, action "stop" failed.14:17
ftabecause bluetoothd is not running14:18
ftaedit /etc/init.d/bluetooth and remove set -e14:18
gnomefreakfta: thanks14:20
gnomefreakhow do i test armel builds before pushing to repos14:22
ftalol, that was not a reboot, just a restart of X14:23
ftaasac, what's the plan for v8 now?14:26
asacfta: fix it, make the packaging great, extinguish debian :)14:28
asachow is it called. extend/embrace/extinguish :-P14:29
asacfta: build branches rather then trunk14:30
asacso we can track ABI/API while staying on top.14:30
asaci have to think how to best deal with trunk packaging wise14:31
ftagasp, my gnome menu has been sorted alphabetically, give me my order back!14:35
ftaand my desktop too :(14:38
ftaasac, should not be difficult to track a branch14:42
ftashould be trivial14:42
asacyeah i had that inserted14:43
asacbut have to think a bit for a while if we can still track trunk somehow in a way that works good for packaging14:43
ftaasac, inserted?14:59
ftadamn, a new dbus, and i just rebooted :P15:01
asacfta: inserted: changed debian/rules to smartly get the right branch from current upstream version in changelog etc.15:02
asacwhich wasnt really that smart :)15:02
asacbut good enough for that purpose i think15:02
* gnomefreak not sunctioning very well today :(15:22
gnomefreakbeen building source for sunbird/jaunty for last hour or 2 and i think i finally got it to work15:23
gnomefreakdid my menu redo its self? things i removed from it came back15:27
ftame too, tell them in -dekstop15:33
gnomefreakgood not just me than :)15:36
ftafor once :)15:44
gnomefreak:) but only a few of us saw it from what i gather from @ubuntu-desktop15:47
gnomefreakyay once i get a confirm that the icon bug is fixed ill push to branch and im done with sunbird for the month :)15:57
gnomefreakthis has to suck http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/16/2627129.htm16:19
bluekujaasac, did you get my mail?16:24
gnomefreaktesting  _test-underline_16:28
gnomefreaknope guess you cant have - in there16:28
bluekujaandrew_sayers, you there?16:31
andrew_sayersbluekuja: hey.16:31
gnomefreakcant comprimise of a hunnymoon location in september, she wants hot i want cold16:34
asacbluekuja: i saw a mail from you .yes.16:37
bluekujaasac, ok, perfect16:37
ftappa crowded again: 77/71/58 with 6/8/5 builders17:07
Nafallothat's not right17:08
ftait's dynamic, i just poll every 30min ;)17:09
gnomefreakthat explains why its taken over an hour to build17:09
Nafalloof course it is17:09
ftaor i should say, my script gets different results from the browser..17:10
ftapolling the same page17:10
ftafaking a user agent doesn't help17:12
ftamaybe because the script is not logged in17:12
ftathe joy of screen scrapping ;)17:15
kristinai'm making an ubuntu package that needs spidermonkey to have utf8 support17:48
kristinabut the xulrunner package has spidermonkey 1.7, which has to be compiled with a certain flag to support utf817:48
kristinais there someone i can talk to about upgrading the spidermonkey to 1.8 or compiling it with the utf8 flag?17:48
kristinaxulrunner-1.9 uses spidermonkey 1.8 and the debian xulrunner package has upgraded to 1.817:48
kristinai can to help out with whatever needs to be done17:49
kristinadoes xulrunner-1.9 provide libmozjs.so?18:03
micahgkristina: it's provided in 1.9 and 1.9.118:11
kristinaoh, i see, it's in dev, that makes sense18:13
kristinathank you18:13
micahgit should just be in /usr/lib/xulrunner-ver18:14
micahg*1.9 or 1.9.118:14
kristinaoh yeah, i didn't see it there before :-/18:15
=== Moot2 is now known as MootBot
asacmicahg: bug 10724719:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 107247 in firefox-3.0 "Launchpad bug pages trigger caret browsing in Firefox and other Gecko browsers" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/10724719:02
asaccould you check if that happens in upstream trunk builds too?19:02
asacand then we must forward it i guess19:02
asacseems its a rather old bug we triaged when we still used tags to signal that something is ready for upstreaming (e.g. mt-postupstream)19:03
asackristina: libmozjs.so in its current form is dead19:33
asacand will be removed from the archive19:33
asac(the one shipped by the old libmozjs package)19:33
kristinaok, but i can still use the one in xulrunner-1.9, right?19:33
asackristina: you can use it with some things in mind:19:34
asaca) its not officially guaranteed that there is any abi/api breakage in a security update (though in practice this doesnt happen)19:34
asacb) thats why we dont ship it in /usr/lib atm, e.g. we dont encourage packages to link against it19:34
asacc) you need to take care that your app find its by setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH in your start script19:35
kristinaso is there a better way to get the spidermonkey libraries?19:35
asacno. its an upstream problem that they have no real releaess19:37
asacits a political thing as well19:37
asacfor now use the way i described if you really need to use a js engine19:37
kristinaok, thanks19:37
asacuse pkg-config --cflags --libs mozilla-js to build and set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/xulrunner-devel-`xulrunner --gre-version`19:38
asacduring runtime19:38
asacse pkg-config --cflags --libs mozilla-js to build and set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/xulrunner-`xulrunner --gre-version`19:38
asackristina: ^^19:38
kristinai'm working on a mongodb package, it looks like we're hitting the same issues couchdb did with this19:39
asackristina: why does that package need spidermonkey for utf-8 support? what does it use if it doesnt do that?19:39
kristinait uses spidermonkey to execute javascript on the server side of the db, we need utf8 because people keep putting international characters in their scripts19:40
=== reed is now known as Guest15623
asackristina: and what would you use if you dont use spidermonkey?19:40
kristinafor... utf8? javascript?19:41
asacyou say you need spidermonkey for utf8 support19:42
asacif you wouldnt need to support utf8. what would you use?19:42
kristinano, i need spidermonkey with utf8 support19:42
asaci dont get why you add the "with utf8" support to it ;)19:42
asacdoesnt the current spidermonkey work for utf8? or is that a special build?19:43
asacsorry if i might be desne, but i definitly miss context19:43
kristinalibmozjs-dev comes with sm 1.7, which needs to be compiled with a special flag to support utf819:43
kristinawith sm 1.8, you can enable it at runtime19:44
kristinaso as long as i have access to 1.8, i'm fine19:44
asacheh. ok19:45
asackristina: 1.8 is 1.9 xul?19:46
asacand what is in 1.9.1? i never tracked how javascript folks really release their stuff19:46
kristinaxulrunner-1.9 contains spidermonkey 1.819:46
kristinaaren't you one of the main mozilla people? :)19:47
kristinait looks like xulrunner-1.9 mushed together a bunch of the 1.8 xul stuff19:50
kristinai'm not terribly clear on it myself19:50
asackristina: main mozilla people? not sure. i am working quite long on mozilla stuff, but mostly on distro side and on security backports upstream. the javascript engine release cycles were always a mystery and i think there is no real rule ;)19:57
asacbut good news is that it seems to be sexy to use javascript nowadays19:58
asacand more packages need that19:58
asacso we have to do something on that19:58
asackristina: which package is it?19:58
kristinanot actually in the repository yet20:00
asackristina: what about? similar to couchdb?20:06
asackristina: did you consider to use webkit js engine?20:06
kristinayeah, it's another document-oriented db20:07
asacand json is what makes javascript so sexy there? or is it just the trend because javascript is ubiqous and now even fast?20:07
kristinai don't think we considered webkit, we originally were using v8 but they don't support 64-bit20:09
kristinai think it's because everyone knows some js and it's fast and easy20:09
kristinaour db actually uses this thing we call bson, binary json, for everything, so it makes sense to use json, too20:10
sebnerasac: *if* I'm ever again mentioned in a ff/xulrunner changelog please with "f" instead of "ph" ;)20:12
asaci thought i copied it .... really sorry20:14
asaci even thought. better check one more time, because its not nice to misspell20:14
asacand still i made a mistake20:14
sebnerasac: nvm nvm20:14
asacsebner: i can flip it on next upload. though it wont show up on launchpad (just in changelog)20:14
asacsebner: but now you probably see what i ment ;)20:15
sebnerasac: fix is working though and that's what counts :)20:15
asace.g. where to insert thec hangelog entry etc.20:15
sebnerasac: well, only working when using bzr :P20:16
LLStarksis asac or fta alive?20:18
asacLLStarks: at least i payed my provider bill last moth which might indicate that i am still alive20:24
pace_t_zuluasac: i marked that branch as abandoned20:25
pace_t_zuluasac: your way is definitely more elegant than mine20:25
asacwhich one?20:25
asacah the v8?20:25
pace_t_zuluasac: talking about chromium-v820:25
pace_t_zuluasac: yeah i'm 'jhaitas'20:25
asacyeah. well. personally i think its all ugly ;)20:25
asacbut it works20:25
asacpace_t_zulu: great. nice to meet you (i think we chattete before though)20:26
pace_t_zuluasac: yeah we have... pleasure20:26
pace_t_zuluasac: i'm learning more about debian packaging20:26
asaci just ended up thinking we should drive the v8 effort a bit more20:27
asacseems like the debian guy doesnt get his act together et al ;)20:27
pace_t_zuluasac: i agree that v8 could get more love20:27
pace_t_zuluasac: it can be useful outside of chromium20:27
asacyeah. if only there was also 64-bit20:27
asacbut at least they have SONAMEs now20:27
pace_t_zuluand it could help with reducing chromium20:27
asacwhich bumps them in a different league from sexiness for the distro20:28
ftaasac, initial x64 support is in trunk, improving every day20:28
asacright. thats why i think we should do it20:28
asacand push that through20:28
pace_t_zulufta, yeah i saw some x64 code in the tree20:28
asacwe need an answer to libmozjs.so not having a SONAME20:28
pace_t_zuluasac and fta, i recall talking to you guys about reducing chromium in the past20:29
pace_t_zuluy'all mentioned that skia would be a possibility20:29
ftaasac, almost all google chrome-dev are running x64, so once v8 is good enough, x64 fixes are likely to flow in20:29
asacbut from what we understand it wont work for chromium trunk builds20:29
asacthough i know that chrome really seems to have some kind of stable branch model20:30
pace_t_zulusome i'm working with a guy in my LoCo who is much better at packaging than me...20:30
asacwhich i hope might also stabilize on a v8 branch which we can shi pthen20:30
pace_t_zuluwe're working on packaging skia...20:30
asacskia would be the next topic20:30
asacafter v820:30
asacproblem is the same as with v8 ... trunk chromium needs a moving skia20:30
asacso we need to find out if skia will do stable release branches similar to v820:31
jcastroasac: btw I did most of gcds with the prism/gears offline combo and it was quite awesome.20:31
asac and chromium settles on one of those20:31
pace_t_zulubut it is apparent that the google devs haven't intended skia to stand alone20:31
asacjcastro: did stefanlsd get it in yet? last i know was that i signed off his built in revu20:31
ftaasac, "trunk chromium needs a moving " everything20:31
asaci didnt say any different20:32
jcastroasac: yeah it's in universe20:32
asaci think skia might need some talk upstream. i think it should work if its usable for anything else than chromium in theory20:32
asacif nobody wants skia i dont care - though i think gears uses it at least20:33
asacjcastro: thanks. thats great news indeed.20:33
asacjcastro: did he fix it for firefox 3.5 yet?20:33
asacjcastro: or just 3.0?20:33
pace_t_zuluasac: skia doesn't seem to move that fast20:33
asacpace_t_zulu: even better20:33
asacpace_t_zulu: problem is not the speed, but the api stability20:34
pace_t_zuluasac: the revision number is below 300 ... so it doesn't change frequently20:34
asacthen it might just require some talk20:34
asacwith upstreawm20:34
asacdo you know skia upstream?20:34
jcastroasac: not for ff3.5 yet20:34
asacok thats what i remember from my last discussion with him20:34
andrew_sayersasac: Any news on 3.5 in Hardy/Intrepid?20:35
pace_t_zuluasac: no i'm not in with the upstream crowd ;)20:36
asacyeah. its good thing to find right upstream people when starting to package something20:36
pace_t_zuluskia is at r266 ... it was checked in sept 20 2006... but it's been moving recently20:36
pace_t_zuluit's only really  been getting attention since December20:37
asacpace_t_zulu: whcih branch are you looking at?20:37
pace_t_zuluasac: i'm looking at the trunk20:38
pace_t_zuludoes chromium use a branch?20:38
asacpace_t_zulu: chromium trunk uses trunk from what i know20:39
asacfta: ?20:39
pace_t_zuluasac: there are no branches20:39
asacpace_t_zulu: right. we need to change that20:39
pace_t_zuluasac: there are no tags either20:39
ftayes, delta the green revision20:39
asacthe green revision?20:39
asacis that saving the world?20:40
ftaGREEN_REV_URL := http://chromium-status.appspot.com/lkgr20:40
fta$ GET http://chromium-status.appspot.com/lkgr20:40
pace_t_zului was wondering what you were talking about fta20:40
ftagives me the revision of the last successful build upstream20:40
ftasee http://paste.ubuntu.com/219230/20:41
fta~ line 34420:42
asacis the green rev out of sync with trunk?20:43
ftait's off by at most 1 hour20:44
ftasame branch (trunk)20:44
ftai just avoid commits that made the tree burn20:45
fta(it was far too often)20:45
ftait's called "Staying Green More Of The Time"20:47
ftaThis URL holds the version of the latest revision to pass only unit tests (in debug mode). This can happen faster, so for most developers this is probably what you want since it will help you ensure that your changes work against a "fresher" version of Chromium.20:48
ftathere's also:20:48
ftaThis corresponds to the most recent revision that passed both unit tests and layout tests. Since layout tests can take a while to run, this revision may be an hour or more "stale".20:48
ftaso the ppa is less than 1h off20:48
ftamost probably 5 minutes20:49
ftaas they don't clobber the build that often20:49
* fta likes to talk alone20:49
ftai can sing it if you like :)20:49
pace_t_zulufta: i hear you20:50
pace_t_zuluhad to step out the room for a minute just now20:50
asacfta: how do i get the skia revision used right now?20:51
asacboth just spit out 2076220:51
pace_t_zuluasac: it's 26620:51
asacwell. thats what you said. but fta said it uses the last green revision20:51
asacand posted that url20:51
asacso i was confused seein 20k there ;)20:52
pace_t_zului should add that to my stuff20:52
asacso its even 250?20:52
pace_t_zului created a skia project on launchpad20:52
pace_t_zulufor packaging skia20:53
ftaasac, i use the last green for chromium, which contains its DEPS file pointing the skia that was used at this point in time, so it's r250 (now)20:53
asacthats ok. just try to avoid creating new teams per package ;)20:53
asacfta: ack. understood. and thanks for the info20:53
pace_t_zuluasac: so i guess the skia-team was a bad idea20:53
asacso skia is indeed quite stable20:53
pace_t_zuluasac: that's why i'm interested in packaging skia20:54
asacpace_t_zulu: yes. first we need to file a bug about skia not having a soname ... or does it have one?20:54
pace_t_zuluasac: i haven't looked20:54
ftahave a look at http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/DEPS?view=log20:55
ftait's mostly webkit, v8 and gyp20:55
ftathey move a lot20:55
pace_t_zuluasac: don't think so... http://code.google.com/p/skia/issues/list?can=1&q=soname&colspec=ID+Type+Status+Priority+Milestone+Owner+Summary&cells=tiles20:55
ftai'm now bugcontrol for chromium btw20:56
pace_t_zulufta: nice20:56
asacfta: congrats20:57
pace_t_zuluasac: i can file an issue right now20:58
pace_t_zuluasac: "skia needs a SONAME"20:58
pace_t_zuluasac: or would you rather do it20:59
ftarefer to the v8 bug, the rationale is there21:00
pace_t_zulufta: i reused some of your code in the skia packaging code21:02
pace_t_zulufta: do you have a link for the v8 bug?21:02
pace_t_zulufta: ty21:02
ftathe packaging should be almost identical21:02
pace_t_zulufta: that was my thinking21:02
pace_t_zulufta: currently a skia make only produces libskia.a ...21:03
asacrefer to that bug21:04
asacand say we need something similar21:05
asacpace_t_zulu: it doesnt provide any .so?21:05
ftait does21:05
pace_t_zulufta where?21:06
ftaproviding the right flags21:06
asacthought i ment really just libskia.a21:06
asacyeah ... you might want to configure --enable-shared or something21:06
pace_t_zulufta: ah... i need to look at that21:06
ftathere's a way to ask for shared, even without looking, i'm quite sure21:06
pace_t_zuluthe issue has been filed21:07
asac"must" is a bit exclusive ;)21:08
asacbut ok21:08
ftaasac, pace_t_zulu: you may be interested by http://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/LinuxPackaging21:09
ftaand https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Chromium/Packaging21:10
pace_t_zuluasac: you'll notice that i basically copy pasted from http://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=15121:12
ftamy old bug *sigh*21:17
pace_t_zuluspeaking of bugs...21:23
pace_t_zuluwhat's up BUGabundo21:23
ftathe buggy man21:23
BUGabundoguud evenings21:26
BUGabundohey pace_t_zulu fta21:26
pace_t_zuluBUGabundo: how are you?21:29
BUGabundojust anwsered that on +121:29
BUGabundotired very tired21:29
BUGabundolong day at work, and gym wasn't all that good21:29
pace_t_zuluBUGabundo: hard to keep track of you on all these channels ;)21:30
pace_t_zuluBUGabundo: at least you got to the gym... i commend you on that... i need to be doing more of that myself21:30
asacfta: do you know of a reason they dont hide internal symbols?21:44
ftaasac, they are no used to being a shared lib :)21:45
asacyeah so in that way soname doesnt really make sense i guess ;)21:45
ftado you guys have that in your dmesg? http://paste.ubuntu.com/219275/21:46
asacfta: i guess if i fix the hiddenness using build system magic in v8 it wont apply in chromium so one could try?21:46
micahgasac: BUGabundo filed a bug against ff3.621:46
BUGabundome ?21:47
asaci mean. maybe chromium does crazy stuff like accessing internal symbols directly et al21:47
ftaasac, what do you mean?21:47
BUGabundoONE ? when?21:47
micahgthe full screen one21:47
ftaasac, you won't know until you try21:47
BUGabundoits fixed21:47
BUGabundoand closed upstream21:47
micahgshould I just close it in Ubuntu?21:47
ftaor look at the chromium tree, in depth21:47
asacmicahg: bugabundo special: before we look at bugs he has to disable all his extensions ;)21:47
BUGabundois it still opened here?21:48
BUGabundosorry about that I lost track21:48
ftamicahg, asac, BUGabundo: <fta> do you guys have that in your dmesg? http://paste.ubuntu.com/219275/21:48
BUGabundoasac: it was on NEW profile21:48
BUGabundoconfirmed here, and upstream21:48
BUGabundoI know how to test stuff21:48
micahgbug 39553421:48
ubottuLaunchpad bug 395534 in firefox "firefox will not come out of full screen" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39553421:48
BUGabundoI'm just to lazy to lose all funcionality21:48
asacfta: what is special about that?21:48
ftai mean, using an usb mouse (external)21:48
asaclooks like its something normal21:48
micahgfta: I don't have an intellimouse21:49
ftait makes my mouse disconnect/reconnect while i'm using it21:49
asacno but i get something as well: http://paste.ubuntu.com/219277/21:49
asacand i dont have a fd0 at all21:49
asacactually the same error blocks boot for about a minute before mounting disks21:49
ftait's an old bug21:49
asacI/O error?21:49
asaci think i had problems with fd0 like four cycles ago21:50
asacso i dont think its the same anymore ;21:50
asacit started in .3121:50
ftait was ~ last month21:50
asacfta: what chipset are you using?21:50
ftain my /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf i've added "blacklist floppy"21:51
asacthat cant be the solution ;)21:51
asaci think i should file and escalate a bug about it ;)21:52
asaci think its falloff of some boot speed improvements21:52
asacjust a feeling21:52
ftabug 38446921:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 384469 in devicekit-disks "constantly polls floppy drive" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38446921:52
asacwell. if device kit starts before my /root partition is mounted then it might be my bug21:53
asacalso its fixed since jun2921:53
asaceven 2621:53
asacwe have jul 1521:53
asacalso i get [  157.405379] Buffer I/O error on device fd0, logical block 021:54
asacwhich are not in the bug reported21:54
ftaasac, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=438923 ?21:56
asacyeah but this one is new for me ;)21:57
asacis the event trigger21:57
ftaasac, EruditeHermit: so, about o3d, i've reported the libCl issue to upstream and asked for glsl instead. so far, it's the best they have because they want the same js api on all 3 platforms22:27
ftabut.. they are willing to consider a glsl parser, allowing hlsl cross-compilation toward directx22:28
asacfta: from what i understood, GLSL works on all three platforms22:28
ftaso it's possible22:28
asacbut wait for EruditeHermit to confirm that22:29
asacmy claim was that they need it for directx ... but he said that directx isnt essentially better22:29
ftathey say the gl drivers in windows are not good enough, and directx doesn't obviously support dlsl22:30
asacright. that was my line22:31
ftabut the goal is a 100% free solution at the end22:31
ftaasac, so they confirm ;)22:31
asacmaybe i didnt explain properly, but EruditeHermit said there was no real reason ;)22:31
asacok good22:31
asacso what does that mean for us?22:31
ftabuild with system libcl for now (it's possible)22:31
asacwhat does "willing to consider" mean?22:31
ftathat they will do something like that22:32
asacwill they put resources in it still? or are they just saying: if patch comes we take it22:32
asacthats at least something22:32
ftai will file a bug22:32
asacfta: right. i think if they say they work on it, its worth going the multiverse route22:32
asacfta: you can upload to multiverse with the .so included22:32
asacnot sure if you want to take the legal liability though if the bug stating that its ok now is wrong ;)22:33
ftait's another of those 300+MB tarball, yeahhh.22:33
asacif you want i can try to get a legal opinion (most likely not binding)22:33
asacfta: well we have nvidia-cg-... package22:33
asacwhich is an installer22:33
asaccould be converted to ship the .so and headers? directly22:33
asacif thats allowed to be redistributed for free (e.g. multiverse requirement)22:34
asacredistributed and anonymously mirrored i think22:34
asacmust be allowed22:34
ftaasac, apparently, it no longer needs to be an installer, we are allowed to distribute the binaries now22:34
EruditeHermithi guys22:34
EruditeHermitfta: the GLSL drivers on windows from ATI and NVIDIA are as good as on Linux if not better22:35
EruditeHermitthats not a good reason22:35
EruditeHermitthe intel drivers I can understand22:35
EruditeHermitintel doesn't have openGL 2.1 support yet in windows22:36
EruditeHermitor they might not22:36
ftai'm not the one to be convinced ;)22:36
EruditeHermitbut they will soon if they don't22:36
EruditeHermitfta: well talk to them and tell them about it.22:39
EruditeHermitfta: if you have a contact that is22:39
asacfta: yes. but are you sure that thats right22:39
asacfta: what i mean, there is a bug saying that thats the case, but i have heard bunch of false claims, so better verify before getting sued22:40
EruditeHermitfta: the way it stands is this. The GLSL calls are converted to nvidia Cg in the nvidia driver anyway so nvidia supports GLSL on all platforms the same as Cg22:40
asac(i havent looked at the bug in detail)22:40
EruditeHermitfta: and ATI just added openGL 3.0 support across all platforms too22:40
asacfta: if you want to do that i can do a quick check with the ones that usually decide if something is good for multiverse22:41
asacits not happining that often to me, so i am not sure what the normal procedure is for that ;)22:41
asacEruditeHermit: but maybe the GLSL transformation is lossy?22:41
asacGLSL -> Cg22:42
EruditeHermitasac: I think both nvidia and ati support is pretty good at this point22:42
asacdirectx -> Cg might be better ... and Cg (the lib) -> directx -> Cg might be better22:42
asacEruditeHermit: can you comment on the bug fta posted?22:42
EruditeHermitwhere is that?22:42
EruditeHermitwhat lp#22:43
asacat least so they can explain why its better to use cg22:43
asacand why you are wrong in their opinion ;)22:43
asacEruditeHermit: its a code.google.com bug i guess22:43
asacfta: ?22:43
EruditeHermitgames such as ET quake wars use OpenGL and run using GLSL22:44
ftaasac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/219317/22:49
asaci only understand open-source licenses a bit ;)22:49
EruditeHermitthe license of Cg allows it to be distributed on Linux as long as the binary is not modified22:50
asacNo Rental.  Customer may not rent or lease the SOFTWARE to someone else.22:50
asacbut selling is allowed? ;)22:50
ubottuUbuntu bug 284750 in nvidia-cg-toolkit "License change, time to package it up" [Undecided,Confirmed]22:50
asaci dont know the requirements. maybe we require to not restrict that you can sell it/rent it lease it22:51
EruditeHermitasac: yes but the exception for Linux overrides that22:52
EruditeHermitit seems to say you  can distribute it as long as its not modified22:52
EruditeHermityou can't sell any Linux distro as GPLed code can't be sold22:53
EruditeHermityou can only sell support for it22:53
EruditeHermitso why would ubuntu require that you could sell it?22:54
EruditeHermitrent/lease it?22:55
asacEruditeHermit: you can sell linux distro22:55
asacEruditeHermit: you can rent linux distro22:55
EruditeHermiti don't think so22:55
asacbelieve me22:55
asacyou are allowed to sell GPL software22:55
asacyou can take ubuntu if you want and sell a CD for $100022:55
asacif you find someone who buys it22:55
EruditeHermitI don't think so22:55
EruditeHermitthat is BSD license22:55
asacyou are wrong22:56
asacbelieve me ;)22:56
asaci am long enough here to know for sure  :)22:56
asacthe point that you confuse is that its not practical22:56
EruditeHermitA number of businesses use dual-licensing to distribute a GPL version and sell a proprietary license22:56
asacbecause as i said they can ask for the code and then are allowed to sell it for free22:56
asacbut you could develop something great in GPL and then sell it for 100K22:57
asacthe customer can then leak it22:57
asacor sell it again22:57
asacEruditeHermit: thats a different things22:57
EruditeHermitthats if you dual licensed it22:57
EruditeHermitor sold it under the guise of another license22:57
asacthe proprietary license is there so customers can distribute it under non-GPL terms22:57
micahgasac: you can sell GPLv222:57
asacmicahg: dont tell that me ;)22:58
micahgnot v322:58
asacproof please22:58
asacthat conflicts with the debian free software guidelines22:59
asac"There is no restriction on distributing, or even selling, the software. "22:59
asacthats a principle22:59
asacif thats broken it would mean GPLv3 wouldnt be free for debian22:59
micahgoh, did they cahnge v3?22:59
EruditeHermitasac: looks like you are right23:00
asaci have never heard of any intent to prevent selling GPL software23:00
micahgAccording to section 4: You may charge any price or no price for each copy that you convey, and you may offer support or warranty protection for a fee.23:00
asacthats a main principal of free software licenses23:00
asacyou can sell it you can do whatever you want23:00
asacbut just have to obey some principals23:00
micahgso why were people going bonkers over gplv3?23:01
asacthat are for copy-left licenses that you have to ship the code23:01
asacto whoever you give the binary23:01
EruditeHermitasac: but then how come you can include fglrx nad nvidia drivers in the distro?23:01
asacmicahg: thats a good question. its not really true that all going bonkers23:01
asacEruditeHermit: read what i initially wrote. i said i am not sure about the multiverse requirements23:01
asaccould be that they dont allow restrictions in selling/renting23:02
asacif you are sure the drivers have that term then thats it23:02
asacmicahg: mostly companies dont like GPLv323:02
EruditeHermitwe can find out easily enough23:02
EruditeHermitcompare the nvidia binary driver license to Cg license23:02
asacmicahg: because there is some patent granting section ... e.g. if you release something covered by any of your own patents23:02
asacyou automatically idemnify the GPLv3 licensee23:03
asacmicahg: others that go bonker do it because they feel like they made a mistake (not for all) in the past: they didnt add the "or later clause" because they mistrusted the freesoftware foundation ;)23:03
asacand got contributions by lots of people to GPLv2 only23:04
asacnow they cant upgrade the code anymore to GPLv323:04
asacso they cannot like it ... otherwise they couldnt sleep anymore ;)23:04
EruditeHermitI think its fine23:08
EruditeHermitI am not a legal expert23:08
EruditeHermitbut multiverse should be fine23:08
EruditeHermitdoes Ubuntu have a legal department?23:08
pace_t_zuluEruditeHermit: probably Canonical23:09
asacas i said. i can find out whats the next steps are23:09
asacand i will23:09
asaci just wouldnt do that if there is no end in sight23:09
asacalso i want to see the discussion about opengl to go on upstream23:09
asacso we need at lesat a bug ;)23:10
asacfta: thanks. just ask them to replay in the bug what they already explained i guess.23:22
asacor did you already summarized that in your bug?23:23
ftasort of, but i asked anyway23:25
ftaasac, where should chromium look for plugins? is env(MOZ_PLUGIN_PATH) -> ~/.mozilla/plugins -> $libdir/plugins -> /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins good?23:45
ftaasac_, <fta> where should chromium look for plugins? is env(MOZ_PLUGIN_PATH) -> ~/.mozilla/plugins -> $libdir/plugins -> /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins good?23:47
asac_fta: s/libdir/pkglibdir/23:47
asac_yeah. that line i got23:47
asac_anything after that?23:47
ftai meant appdir/plugin23:47
asac_yeah thats pkglibdir23:48
asac_for instance23:48
asac_(if that exists at all)23:48
ftano /usr/lib/chromium-browser/plugins23:48
asac_yes thats still $pkglibdir/plugins ;)23:48
asac_i think we mean the same23:49
ftano need for a ~/.config/chromium/plugins ?23:49
asac_well. that depends on the chromium developers. they should support the mozilla paths if they want firefox plugins to automatically be picked up23:50
asac_if they want to do their own dirs like the suggested pkglibdir/plugins then they might also want to consider their own user config dir23:51
asac_personally i dont like all this and have the feeling it needs a reorganization23:51
asac_question is if they support all plugins that work in firefox23:52
asac_my guess is no because there exist xpcom plugins23:52
asac_question is what happens then23:52
asac_will it break (i guess not) ... will chromium just refuse to load it etc.23:52
asac_but i think the selection you suggested makes sense. maybe even drop the .mozilla/plugins location23:53
asac_there are also .mozilla/random.profile/plugins iirc23:53
asac_e.g. per profile plugins23:53
ftahm, not the plan, ok for global legacy dir but those ugly things, bbrrrr23:55
asac_i only would care about /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins23:55
asac_because thats where already a bunch of packages ship their stuff anyway23:55

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