[00:00] <rickspencer3> TheMuso: hi
[00:00] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, hi
[00:17] <TheMuso> Hey rickspencer3.
[06:02] <crevette> hello
[07:31] <pitti> Good morning
[08:04] <didrocks> Guten Tag pitti
[08:19] <seb128> hello everybody there
[08:19] <seb128> mvo, your synaptic update works much better!
[08:19] <didrocks> lut seb128
[08:20] <mvo> seb128: sweet - its still not putting "apt" itself on top when search for it, but otherwise its a step forward
[08:21] <seb128> 'lu didrocks
[08:21] <seb128> mvo, well yesterday "libgtk2.0-0" was giving me a zillion of choices and the correct one at 60% of the list
[08:21] <seb128> mvo, now it has 3 and it's listed first
[08:21] <seb128> mvo, so much better ;-)
[08:22] <seb128> robert_ancell, hey
[08:36] <seb128> hey slomo
[08:38] <seb128> IRC is really quiet this morning is everybody still sleeping? ;-)
[08:46] <pitti> hey seb128
[08:46] <seb128> hello pitti!
[08:46] <pitti> bonjour didrocks
[08:46] <seb128> good to see that somebody is still active there I was started being concerned for you guys ;-)
[08:46] <pitti> no, was just away for supermarket and stuff
[08:47] <seb128> I was wondering if I miscounted days and we were saturday or something ;-)
[08:48] <pitti> hah
[08:56] <robert_ancell> hey all
[08:58] <seb128> hello robert_ancell
[08:58] <seb128> robert_ancell, just wondering, did you receive my email about gdmsetup yesterday?
[08:59] <robert_ancell> seb128, yes, was going to work on that now.  I don't have strong opinions where the functionality should be, just that we need it.  I'm going to do a blueprint wiki page for it
[09:00] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok, I was just wondering because I did emails you a bit before GUADEC about updates to do and some other things too once
[09:00] <seb128> and you never replied
[09:00] <seb128> so I was checking that emails are reaching you
[09:00] <robert_ancell> yeah, I'm just slow at replying :)
[09:00] <seb128> ok, no problem
[09:01] <seb128> on a good note I pinged #gdm guys yesterday about patch review and they did some
[09:01] <seb128> they commited a bunch of pending patches to git and commented on some other bugs
[09:03] <robert_ancell> cool, be back in 30 mins
[09:03] <andrew_sayers> Could I ask what the current thinking is on making Empathy the default IM client in Karmic?
[09:04] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok, btw I still disagree with the gnome-games split so let's discuss that before you start on it
[09:04] <seb128> andrew_sayers, what do you mean? it's the default client now
[09:05] <andrew_sayers> seb128: And it's looking to stay that way when it's released?
[09:05] <seb128> andrew_sayers, why not?
[09:05] <andrew_sayers> Well, it'll take me a while to write up all the reasons :s
[09:05] <andrew_sayers> I don't see any evidence that they can actually maintain stable releases.
[09:06] <seb128> pidgin doesn't either
[09:06] <andrew_sayers> E.g. there's a bug in the MSN protocol stuff that's left people unable to sign in for 8 months.
[09:06] <andrew_sayers> In Launchpad, getting no attention.
[09:06] <seb128> it's using haze and libpurple for msn
[09:06] <seb128> ie the pidgin lib
[09:06] <andrew_sayers> bug #338891
[09:06] <andrew_sayers> (It's not a duplicate, at least for me)
[09:07] <seb128> jaunty is stable it doesn't get new versions, karmic do
[09:07] <seb128> empathy was not default in jaunty don't focus on jaunty
[09:07] <andrew_sayers> Okay, but MSN doesn't work at all.
[09:07] <seb128> nobody is spending efforts to get the jaunty version in a solid state
[09:07] <seb128> on karmic?
[09:07] <seb128> works for me
[09:08] <andrew_sayers> Okay, but will people spend effort to get it working when Karmic is stable and doesn't get new versions?
[09:08] <andrew_sayers> More to the point, would something get put together if there was another situation like the recent Yahoo! protocol upgrade?
[09:08] <seb128> andrew_sayers, I don't understand the questions
[09:08] <seb128> andrew_sayers, do you ask "will you fix bugs on the softwares you ship by default"
[09:09] <seb128> andrew_sayers, do you expect to reply "no" to that? yes we will fix issues as we do since warty
[09:09] <andrew_sayers> seb128: TBH, this is just the latest in a long line of question marks around Empathy.  I can write up a full list if it's still the presumptive IM client in Karmic stable.
[09:10] <pitti> ok, so fixed gnome-session and my fixed consolekit are happy again
[09:10]  * pitti uploads CK
[09:10] <kklimonda> andrew_sayers: don't loose your time, it was discussed over and over already.
[09:10] <seb128> andrew_sayers, I don't really understand the question, yes we fix bugs on softwares we ship by default
[09:10] <seb128> pitti, \o/
[09:10]  * pitti sends kudos to Chris
[09:11] <andrew_sayers> My question is, where is the evidence that the Empathy team will put significant time and effort into e.g. backporting a new protocol into an old version if the network upgrades?
[09:11] <seb128> andrew_sayers, no, as there is none that the pidgin team will do that
[09:11] <chrisccoulson> hey pitti
[09:11] <chrisccoulson> glad it's sorted now:)
[09:11] <seb128> andrew_sayers, the yahoo issue is still not fixed in hardy for pidgin either
[09:11] <andrew_sayers> What about Jaunty?
[09:12] <seb128> andrew_sayers, that's how opensource work, you have no guaranty over what contributor do in their free time
[09:12] <seb128> andrew_sayers, the yahoo has been fixed in jaunty but it doesn't mean if there is an another change the pidgin team will pick quickly on that one too
[09:13] <seb128> andrew_sayers, your question is not really revelent to empathy, it's an issue for any im client
[09:13] <andrew_sayers> I accept that there are no guarantees, it's just that Pidgin seems like a safer bet.
[09:13] <seb128> andrew_sayers, on what basis do you judge?
[09:13] <seb128> andrew_sayers, for one thing telepathy-haze allow you to use libpurple, it the pidgin lib for any protocol
[09:14] <seb128> andrew_sayers, so fixing pidgin will make empathy work too
[09:14] <andrew_sayers> Pidgin rushed something out in Jaunty for a new protocol, Empathy won't even fix an existing protocol.
[09:14] <pitti> *sigh*, CDs still overflowing without gimp help and only one langpack
[09:14] <kklimonda> andrew_sayers: not pidgin and not empathy but ubuntu developers.
[09:14] <seb128> andrew_sayers, fixing pidgin makes empathy work too if you use haze
[09:15] <seb128> andrew_sayers, and we did bother backporting pidgin because it's the default IM, empathy would have been the default we would have fixed it before pidgin
[09:15] <seb128> andrew_sayers, we just spend resources on what we distribute to users in priority and not in universe
[09:15] <andrew_sayers> But surely you can only do that if the upstream developers provide you with sufficient resources?
[09:15] <seb128> why?
[09:16] <seb128> we have a team of people who know how to code and fix issues
[09:16] <andrew_sayers> If Empathy carries on at the pace it is right now, any patches against the trunk wouldn't necessarily apply to the old version.
[09:16] <seb128> and that discussion has no sense anyway there is a good and responsive team working on telepathy
[09:16] <seb128> empathy is just a frontend
[09:16] <seb128> telepathy has the protocols interaction
[09:17] <seb128> and as said for yahoo and msn we use libpurple anyway
[09:17] <seb128> so it's pidgin which will still need fixing empathy will work
[09:18] <andrew_sayers> Hang on, Telepathy is using pymsn for MSN, not libpurple.
[09:18] <andrew_sayers> At least according to this bug report.
[09:18] <seb128> andrew_sayers, that's because you installed telepathy-butterfly which we don't do by default
[09:19] <seb128> we use telepathy-haze and libpurple in karmic
[09:19] <pitti> anyone got an idea why libpurple0 has to depend on pidgin-data?
[09:19] <seb128> andrew_sayers, telepathy transports are used if installed but if you don't install those haze and libpurple will be used
[09:19] <seb128> pitti, no
[09:19] <andrew_sayers> I agree that the Telepathy team is good and responsive in the development, but in that case, why hasn't anyone checked the bug report and said "try with haze instead"?
[09:21] <andrew_sayers> seb128: Would it be better for me to write this up an post it to the ML?  As I say, this is just one of many things about Empathy that make me uncomfortable.
[09:22] <seb128> andrew_sayers, telepathy was not the default in jaunty so no effort were focussed on it
[09:22] <seb128> andrew_sayers, there has been a zillion of mailing list discussions on the topic recently
[09:22] <seb128> andrew_sayers, and there is a specification registered
[09:23] <seb128> pitti, libpurple seems have functions to deal with protocol, etc icons
[09:23] <seb128> pitti, not sure if that makes the icons an hard requirement or what would happen without those though
[09:23] <seb128> pitti, you can try asking on #pidgin they are usually nice and responsive
[09:24] <andrew_sayers> There have been many discussions, and they all seem to raise significant issues about making Empathy the default.  Surely that's at least cause for more discussion?
[09:25] <seb128> all that is not really constructive if you have real concern expose those here?
[09:25] <andrew_sayers> Okay, I'll move on to the next one then :)
[09:25] <seb128> rather than trying to suggest that we will not fix bugs on what we ship by default
[09:26] <seb128> be aware that we know that empathy is not as good as pidgin right now as an IM client
[09:26] <seb128> but we aim at having a tested technology ready for the next lts
[09:26] <andrew_sayers> That's exactly what I was about to talk about :)
[09:26] <seb128> and it will bring nice features as vnc sharing to im contacts or video for jabber
[09:26] <seb128> and video for msn probably
[09:27] <andrew_sayers> Empathy won't have had a full round of testing by the time Karmic is released, as it wasn't included in the initial alphas.
[09:27] <seb128> the motivation for the switch is rather the telepathy stack integration in the desktop than the im client
[09:27] <seb128> well if we want it to be ready for next cycle we better stay on it now rather than roll back and have short testing before the lts
[09:27] <seb128> karmic is a technology change version of ubuntu anyway
[09:27] <andrew_sayers> Also, discussions on ubuntu-devel-discuss suggest that testing is only practical if you're willing to install from a PPA and accept that you might lose logs now and then.
[09:27] <seb128> new gdm, telepathy, devicekit*
[09:28] <seb128> what you talk about is probably testing on jaunty
[09:29] <andrew_sayers> I'll go and get the references...
[09:29] <pitti> chrisccoulson: btw, did you send the fixed polkit crash upstream, or shall I?
[09:29] <andrew_sayers> Since there's only a month left until feature freeze, I don't see how it's possible to get enough testing done by the community in time.
[09:29] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i was going to comment on the fedora bugzilla, but seb128 found a version of the patch on the gnome bugzilla, with the fix already in
[09:29] <seb128> andrew_sayers, we accept that karmic will have some rough edge, that's the only way to get something solid for the coming lts
[09:30] <pitti> chrisccoulson: rock, thanks
[09:30] <seb128> andrew_sayers, rolling back now to have the same discussion in 6 month will not make karmic+1 any better
[09:30] <chrisccoulson> you're welcome
[09:30] <seb128> andrew_sayers, note that pidgin will still be available and not changed for people upgrading
[09:30] <andrew_sayers> seb128: How will the smoothing process actually work?  Surely existing users will stick with what they've got, and new users will file bug reports that are at best difficult?
[09:30] <seb128> andrew_sayers, and that you can keep running jaunty if you want
[09:31] <seb128> andrew_sayers, what smoothing process?
[09:31] <andrew_sayers> Smoothing out the rough edges in Karmic.
[09:31] <seb128> as in any ubuntu version?
[09:31] <seb128> upstream fix bugs, we fix bugs, we iterate and we ship in a few months?
[09:32] <andrew_sayers> See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008887.html for an example of problems testing in Karmic (you'll need to read the whole thread)
[09:32] <seb128> do you have a specific concern?
[09:32] <seb128> I've read all those thread we moved things quite a while since
[09:32] <pitti> seb128: I'm going to merge Cody's propsed gdm change
[09:32] <seb128> empathy is not installed by default in karmic
[09:32] <seb128> pitti, please don't
[09:33] <pitti> oh?
[09:33] <pitti> why not?
[09:33] <seb128> pitti, chrisccoulson was talking with him yesterday, talk to him first
[09:33] <pitti> okay
[09:33] <pitti> chrisccoulson: any idea why gdm should not just depend on gnome-session-bin?
[09:33] <seb128> pitti, gnome-session is actually required to get g-s-d and theming etc working
[09:33] <andrew_sayers> My specific concern is that testers haven't been given enough time to do their job.
[09:33] <andrew_sayers> So there's no way of knowing whether Empathy has showstopping bugs.
[09:34] <seb128> andrew_sayers, we accept that, as said we need to do this switch now if we want the lts to be solid next cycle
[09:34] <chrisccoulson> pitti - gdm will also need to depend on gnome-settings-daemon
[09:34] <pitti> seb128: hmkay (not sure whether the xubuntu guys would insist on those features)
[09:34] <seb128> andrew_sayers, rolling back now will not lead to a better karmic+1
[09:34] <chrisccoulson> and it seems it will also need to depend on metacity too
[09:34] <seb128> andrew_sayers, if karmic has to be lower quality so be it
[09:34] <chrisccoulson> so it will still pull in half of gnome on xubuntu ;)
[09:35] <chrisccoulson> but cody tried it last night, and he can at least start a working xfce session with the changes, which is better than he had before
[09:35] <seb128> andrew_sayers, for the record I think we will manage to have a decent user experience for karmic and pidgin is still available
[09:35] <andrew_sayers> That's actually an important point in itself - is there a page somewhere that explains how this will actually benefit the user?
[09:35] <andrew_sayers> I've read a lot around this, and haven't been able to find a clear case spelled out anywhere.
[09:35] <seb128> andrew_sayers, you start by assuming that empathy will give a not so good user experience which I would not bet on
[09:36] <seb128> andrew_sayers, we don't justify every change we make no or we wouldn't get any work done, we have been commenting on the lists and have a specification on the wiki about that
[09:36] <seb128> andrew_sayers, and that's discussed during desktop team meeting which are open, I think that's enough
[09:37] <seb128> andrew_sayers, if you care enough you should read informations where they are or trust the team to do their job as they do usually
[09:37] <seb128> pitti, maybe xubuntu should stop using gdm if it's too GNOME heavy for them now
[09:37] <seb128> pitti, I'm not sure that upstream considered the non GNOME users in their new design it relies on GNOME technologies now
[09:38] <andrew_sayers> Okay, I'll go and read some desktop team meeting minutes.  Is there one in particular that explains the benefits to the user?
[09:38] <seb128> pitti, ie you need a least one session manager able to run autostart for a specified user directory, a setting daemon, a wm, etc
[09:38] <pitti> seb128: ok, so perhaps they need to switch to another *dm then
[09:38] <seb128> andrew_sayers, no
[09:38] <seb128> andrew_sayers, benefits are: regular schedule aligned on GNOME, responsive upstream, video for jabber (and msn coming) desktop integration
[09:38] <chrisccoulson> i'm sure it could be adapted to use non-Gnome components. ef, it doesn't really need metacity as a WM, and the only reason it needs gnome-sesion is so it can specify where the autostart folder is
[09:38] <chrisccoulson> ef -> eg
[09:39] <pitti> a properly configured xdm shoudln't be too bad
[09:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, well it depends on gconf in any case now though for example
[09:39] <pitti> chrisccoulson: but shoulnd't that part be in -bin?
[09:40] <chrisccoulson> GDM and gnome-session-bin should already depend on gconf
[09:40] <seb128> chrisccoulson, well just saying part of the GNOME technologies will be triggered in any case, I'm not sure what part xubuntu is happy to use or not
[09:40] <seb128> ie does xubuntu use gconf or not?
[09:41] <chrisccoulson> pitti - they're both linked against the gconf library
[09:41] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i'm not sure. i'm not familiar enough with how xubuntu works
[09:41] <andrew_sayers> seb128: surely those are reasons to replace Ekiga, not Pidgin?  Pidgin is cross-platform and has plugins, so picking one over the other will always cause regressions.
[09:41] <chrisccoulson> for example, what do they have in the place of things like gnome-settings-daemon etc?
[09:42] <seb128> andrew_sayers, msn video chat is not an ekiga thing no, ekiga is a softphone not an im client
[09:42] <kklimonda> pitti: do you have a minute? wrt bug 379413 removing vmmouse_detect from mdetect.install will leave dangling vmmouse_detect.1.gz. Also debian has just released 0.5.2.2 so we could just make a sync and spare me further humiliation while I'm preparing another bad debdiff ;)
[09:42] <pitti> so, xdm is magnitudes faster as well, it's just a little tricky to configure
[09:42] <pitti> kklimonda: so vmmouse_detect.1.gz is shipped in a different package?
[09:42] <chrisccoulson> pitti - if i get some time this weekend, i might do some hacking and see if i can get GDM to load the session with xfce4-session and xfce4-wm
[09:42] <seb128> andrew_sayers, anyway that discussion is pointless now, I explained the reasons several time by now
[09:42] <pitti> kklimonda: sure, syncs are always the best way to fix stuff :)
[09:42] <chrisccoulson> no guarantees though - i don't know how xfce works enough
[09:43] <pitti> chrisccoulson: well, check with Cody first before wasting workon it
[09:43] <andrew_sayers> Okay, I still think this is a mistake, but it's clear you've made your mind up.
[09:43] <seb128> andrew_sayers, the telepathy stack is much better integrated on the GNOME desktop and will allow lot of cool things pidgin will never do
[09:43] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, i'll have a chat with him
[09:43] <seb128> andrew_sayers, ie sharing your desktop over vnc with im contacts
[09:43] <andrew_sayers> Actually, that's a good point that's still worth talking about.
[09:43] <seb128> andrew_sayers, you focus on the IM client aspect apparently
[09:44] <seb128> andrew_sayers, other team plan to integrate other desktop components with telepathy too
[09:44] <andrew_sayers> Yes, I have no problem including Telepathy, so long as Empathy isn't the default IM client.
[09:44] <seb128> andrew_sayers, if empathy is not the default you loose all the integration between IM and desktop
[09:44] <seb128> andrew_sayers, it sharing vnc with contacts over IM will not work in pidgin it doesn't use telepathy
[09:44] <seb128> ie
[09:45] <seb128> same for sharing music with an IM contact from rhythmbox or banshee
[09:45] <seb128> that only works if you IM talk to telepathy
[09:46] <andrew_sayers> But how many users actually want to do that, compared to using plugins or using the same client across OSes?
[09:46] <seb128> I'm not sure what are your real concerns about empathy as an IM
[09:46] <seb128> what plugins do you think is used by lot of users?
[09:47] <seb128> same clients across OSes, we should not limit yourself to that when we can do way better
[09:47] <andrew_sayers> Well, my major point is that there are a lot of unknowns here.
[09:47] <seb128> cross platform clients will not work as good as softwares integrated in your environment
[09:47] <andrew_sayers> We don't know how important plugins are, we don't know what bugs Empathy has, and so on.
[09:47] <seb128> pidgin is still available for those who want it
[09:47] <andrew_sayers> It seems to me like waiting is still the prudent choice.
[09:47] <seb128> by being prudent you don't move
[09:48] <seb128> we need to get things moving so cool things can happen
[09:48] <seb128> pidgin will still be there and users upgrading will still get it
[09:48] <seb128> as said karmic is a technology change version
[09:48] <seb128> we need that to put foundations for the coming lts
[09:48] <seb128> if you don't want to run it don't run it
[09:49] <seb128> jaunty is still there and supported and pidgin is still available
[09:49] <andrew_sayers> Okay, so here's an example - say someone tries Ubuntu out for the first time.  They get started with Empathy, and it turns out that the log-deleting bug is still there, but only happens once every few weeks...
[09:49] <andrew_sayers> So they try it for a while, then a few months later, they discover that they've been losing log files.
[09:49] <seb128> well pidgin could have a bug deleting your logs tomorrow in the next version too
[09:50] <seb128> that's life, sofwares have bugs
[09:50] <andrew_sayers> True, but it's less likely, as it's been tested widely, for a very long time.
[09:50] <seb128> well another reason to do go tesitng in karmic on empathy
[09:50] <andrew_sayers> And there's no evidence of Pidgin losing logs at any time in the recent past.
[09:50] <seb128> so issues are fixed before the next lts
[09:50] <seb128> and you don't get a lts destroying your logs
[09:50] <seb128> well, with your thinking we would never change anything
[09:51] <seb128> we would stay put on known to be working softwares and versions
[09:51] <seb128> as said karmic is a technology change version
[09:51] <seb128> we will put disclaimers where required
[09:51] <seb128> it's the user choice to run a non lts version then
[09:51] <andrew_sayers> No, I would advocate making something the default when there's currently a feature-complete, well-maintained version in the current stable release.
[09:52] <seb128> ok, I've enough discussed that you are not interested to listen to other people arguments anyway
[09:52] <seb128> we did the mistake of switching to new technologies in a lts before
[09:52] <seb128> we will not do it again if that's not really required
[09:53] <andrew_sayers> I agree with that, and I would prefer to leave it until after the LTS.
[09:53] <seb128> and not do it now would mean delaying after the lts, one year, when we have cool things ready that we want to distribute to users
[09:53] <seb128> all your argument is based on the fact that we suck too much to get empathy issues sorted before karmic
[09:53] <seb128> thanks for vouching for our team there
[09:54] <seb128> but I'm of the advice that we will do a better job that you think
[09:54] <andrew_sayers> I'm sorry if that's how I sounded, that's not what I was trying to say.
[09:54] <seb128> we can re-discuss that after karmic if you want and see who was right
[09:54] <seb128> we will put resources required to get empathy working correctly and not destroying your logs or datas
[09:55] <seb128> if there is such issues around beta time and we thing the quality is not there we will roll back
[09:55] <seb128> but until there we will give some good testing to empathy to know where we stand
[09:55] <seb128> and help upstream getting the software rocking solid
[09:56] <seb128> if there is some random plugin people need and is not in empathy they can still install pidgin
[09:56] <seb128> we trade some of those features for better desktop integration, regular schedule, new cool features, etc
[09:57] <andrew_sayers> Okay, well I wish you the best, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression, and I do appreciate all your work.  I won't bother you about this again.
[09:58] <seb128> no problem, it's fine to ask questions
[09:58] <seb128> it's just not as obvious as you seem to think
[09:59] <seb128> we have been doing what you suggest for several cycles now
[09:59] <seb128> but if you don't push something a bit harder you don't get work done
[09:59] <seb128> same issues for the new gdm codebase
[10:01] <seb128> robert_ancell, did you read my comment about gnome-games splitting before?
[10:01] <andrew_sayers> Well, thanks for talking :)
[10:02] <andrew_sayers> Bye bye.
[10:02] <robert_ancell> seb128, which one?  I have read the bug reports you've replied to before.  I'm writing you and pitti an email with why I think it is a good idea
[10:02] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok, btw I still disagree with the gnome-games split so let's discuss that before you start on it
[10:02] <seb128> ok
[10:03] <robert_ancell> seb128, oh, yes the irc comment, that's what's triggering the email :)
[10:05] <seb128> ok
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, did we decide anything about bug #383256?
[10:11] <robert_ancell> clocking off now, later all
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, ie having seahorse-plugins not installed by default
[10:11] <seb128> robert_ancell, 'night
[10:11] <pitti> robert_ancell: good night!
[10:12] <pitti> seb128: I thought you were okay with that as well? developers etc. can install that (or gnome-gpg, or whatnot)
[10:12] <robert_ancell> seb128, I look forwards to your reply to the split. Gloves off, no holds barred ;)
[10:12] <seb128> robert_ancell, ahah
[10:12] <robert_ancell> cya pitti
[10:12] <seb128> pitti, well, I'm not opposed to it, to be honest I've no strong opinion
[10:12] <seb128> pitti, but that's the second surprised user comment I read about it since yesterday
[10:12] <seb128> the first on was james_w yesterday
[10:14] <pitti> we should release-note it, perhaps
[10:14] <pitti> but I wonder why it gets removed on upgrades anyway? it's still in main
[10:14] <pitti> ah, perhaps auto-dependency
[10:15] <seb128> the autoremove will clean it I think
[10:21] <seb128> brb
[10:24] <geser> asac, superm1: I've added a debdiff for bug #399482 in case you're still interested to fix it.
[10:26] <pitti> uh, wontfix?
[10:27] <pitti> this breaks everyone's upgrade?
[10:27] <geser> only in karmic
[10:28] <geser> but yes, many people using karmic seem to be affected (18 dupes already)
[10:32] <mvo> I have it too
[10:38] <asac> pitti: it was a 24h regression window
[10:39] <pitti> asac: ah, only affects upgrades from -2?
[10:39] <asac> pitti: so i said it was ok to wont fix it
[10:39] <asac> pitti: 24h before ubuntu3 ubuntu1 was uploaded
[10:39] <asac> right
[10:39] <pitti> ok, as long as there's a way to unbreak everyone's desktop
[10:42]  * pitti tries --force-depends -P and a reinstall
[10:42] <pitti> argh, init script fails as well
[10:42]  * pitti removes init script as well
[10:43] <pitti> ok, that worked
[10:43] <asac> pitti: so you catched this?
[10:43] <asac> geser: if you want we can do something like that; but i think we should restrict it to the versions as suggested by maxb
[10:43] <hyperair> i modified my initscript, regarding that.
[10:43] <hyperair> added the || true part
[10:46] <geser> asac: will update the prerm script with his suggestions
[10:47] <Laney> should I not take this bluez upgrade then?
[10:47] <Laney> ubuntu3
[10:49] <hyperair> take it
[10:49] <hyperair> but modify the initscript first
[10:49] <hyperair> the reason the upgrade fails is because the initscript can't stop bluez.
[10:49] <asac> Laney: depends what version you have
[10:49] <Laney> ubuntu1
[10:49] <hyperair> rather, it's not running, so you can't stop it.
[10:49] <Laney> well I don't mind holding the version
[10:49] <asac> Laney: which major version? the latest ubuntu1/ubuntu2 was just in for 24h
[10:50] <Laney>   Installed: 4.45-0ubuntu1
[10:50] <Laney>   Candidate: 4.45-0ubuntu3
[10:50] <asac> yeah. that will break then.
[10:50] <hyperair> can it even be fixed, i wonder?
[10:50] <hyperair> the issue was that bluez's prerm script couldn't run properly, right?
[10:51] <pitti> seb128: did you see the recent comments on bug 207072? apparently the nautilus patch was broken (it patches itself, not the source)
[10:51] <asac> hyperair: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez/+bug/399482/comments/20
[10:51] <asac> i would think it might also work for already broken systems ;)
[10:51] <seb128> pitti, yes, I've access to a hardy box now I will have a look before lunch
[10:52] <hyperair> i see.
[10:53] <Laney> forbid-version :cool:
[10:53] <hyperair> Laney: just modify your initscript and let it update. it isn't that hard =\
[10:53] <Laney> it's harder than waiting for the update
[10:54] <hyperair> lazy ass
[10:54] <geser> asac: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/29133899/bluez.debdiff
[10:54] <Laney> pfft
[10:54] <Laney> why would I deliberately walk into a problem?
[10:54] <hyperair> hmm well then. time to RFS for gtk2-engines-aurora in debian
[10:55] <geser> Laney: which version of bluez do you currently have installed?
[10:55] <Laney> 4.45-0ubuntu1
[10:56] <geser> Laney: then either wait for a fix (which might not even come, the bug is currently won't fix) or apply the work-around
[10:56] <Laney> geser: I am doing
[10:56] <Laney> see comment about forbid-version
[10:56] <asac> geser: you verified path: u1 -> u3 (broken) -> u4 ?
[10:57] <asac> geser: dont you mean "ge" ?
[10:59] <asac> he you flipped order
[10:59] <asac> ok
[10:59] <geser> asac: no, "4.45-0ubuntu1" <= $2 <= "4.45-0ubuntu2" looks ok
[10:59] <Laney> not ubuntu3?
[11:00] <asac> good point.
[11:00] <asac> ;)
[11:00] <geser> Laney: 0u3 is fixed but doesn't catch the error from 0u{1,2}
[11:02] <geser> asac: rerunning my upgrade checks with the new prerm, one moment
[11:02] <asac> geser: what he means is 4.45-0ubuntu1" <= $2 <= "4.45-0ubuntu3"
[11:02] <asac> assuming that u1 -> u3 (broken) -> u4  works
[11:03] <geser> asac: as the upgrade fails -0u3 doesn't get installed but I'll check the version at this point
[11:04] <asac> geser: yes. thats what i wondered about
[11:08] <geser> asac: just checked, the version stays at -0u1
[11:08] <asac> geser: ok i upload it then, ok?
[11:09] <asac> 3 .. 2 ...
[11:09] <seb128> 1!
[11:09] <hyperair> 0!
[11:10] <geser> asac: go
[11:10] <asac> done
[11:10] <asac> thx geser
[11:11] <geser> my upgrade checks all succeeded
[11:12] <geser> from the old working version to -0u4, as from the broken ones to -0u4 and from -0u3 to -0u4
[11:13]  * Laney doesn't even have bluetooth ¬_¬
[11:14] <Laney> oh it's pulled in by n-m
[11:24] <maxb> I kind of want to call this bluez thing a test of whether you should be running karmic or not :-)
[11:25] <maxb> --> post a duplicate bug == you fail!
[11:35] <james_w> is anyone else getting too many tooltips from the pager?
[11:35] <james_w> I move my mouse in, change desktop by clicking, then move the mouse out
[11:35] <james_w> and I consistently get a tooltip left there until I mouseover it
[11:42] <seb128> james_w, yes, there is a bug open about that since jaunty
[11:42] <james_w> thanks
[11:42] <james_w> I guess it's a race condition?
[11:42] <seb128> dunno
[11:43] <seb128> I've noticed it but not debugged
[11:43] <james_w> ah, it happens on the task list as well
[11:43] <seb128> james_w, bug #356702
[11:43] <james_w> thanks
[11:44]  * seb128 fixes the title and grrrr at people specifying the version there
[11:46] <seb128> re
[11:46] <seb128> pitti, nautilus hardy uploaded
[11:46] <pitti> seb128: merci beaucoup, will process
[11:47] <seb128> waouh, didrocks took over the g-c-c update, good luck!
[11:47] <pitti> another one?
[11:47] <pitti> didn't we just get a new one yesterday?
[11:48] <seb128> yes, that one from yesterday was being working for over a week
[11:48] <seb128> and GNOME rolls new tarball every few weeks
[11:50] <seb128> can I tell firefox to open webpages on the current workspace and not to add tabs to an instance on an another workspace?
[11:50] <seb128> hum lunch is ready now
[11:50] <seb128> bbl
[11:55] <didrocks> seb128: I heard it was quite a challenge, so, let's challenge it :)
[11:55] <didrocks> seb128: have a good lunch!
[11:58] <pitti> seb128: firefox -new-window http://ubuntu.com
[12:12] <seb128> pitti, well that will always open a new one
[12:12] <seb128> pitti, what I want is to add a tab if there is already a firefox on the workspace or open a new firefox there otherwise
[12:12] <pitti> oh
[12:12] <pitti> seb128: I don't know a way to get that
[12:13] <seb128> ok
[12:13] <seb128> the default behaviour is just weird
[12:13] <seb128> you click on an url and you get a blinking task
[12:15]  * Laney wonders if something has changed
[12:15] <Laney> I've been not noticing new pidgin windows
[12:15] <chrisccoulson> Laney - in jaunty or karmic?
[12:16] <Laney> karmic
[12:16] <chrisccoulson> that happens to me in jaunty all the time. not only with MSN, but someone tried to talk to me privately on IRC yesterday, and I was never notified of the new tab that appeared
[12:16] <chrisccoulson> the messaging indicator had nothing in it at all
[12:16] <Laney> I can't remember for the life of me what used to happen
[12:16] <Laney> the messaging indicator is working fine, but I never notice the change in it
[12:17] <Laney> there's been a few times in the past couple of days where I've been IMed and not noticed it fora ges
[12:17] <chrisccoulson> ah. yeah, that is a problem. i do notice when the icon is different, but it is very hard to spot
[12:17] <Laney> the new window gets raised on another workspace
[12:18] <chrisccoulson> but in my case, if i leave my machine for 5 minutes, then come back, and someone started a conversation with me whilst i was away, i never get any indication of it
[12:18] <Laney> maybe that's what's changed
[12:18] <Laney> hm
[12:18] <chrisccoulson> i don't know what specific steps trigger it. sometimes it works
[12:18] <chrisccoulson> but often, it doesn't
[12:18] <chrisccoulson> does anyone here use the messaging indicator then?
[12:19] <seb128> I don't
[12:19] <Laney> I think I'll just put the blinking icon back
[12:19]  * Laney wonders how
[12:20] <seb128> how what?
[12:20] <Laney> to get the pidgin notification icon back
[12:20] <Laney> do I have to remove indicator-applet?
[12:20] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, i'm starting to think i should go back to the old way. raising the buddy list is a pain with the indicator
[12:20] <seb128> Laney, there is a preference option or you can remove the indicator applet from the config
[12:20] <Laney> ah yes there it is
[12:21] <Laney> oh I bet that's it
[12:21] <Laney> it was on "only on unread messages" but I never saw it
[12:21] <chrisccoulson> and my girlfriend didn't even know that pidgin could be raised from the indicator. she always raises it again from the application menu after she minimizes it
[12:21]  * Laney tests
[12:21] <seb128> yeah, opening the buddy list is annoying and non obvious
[12:22] <chrisccoulson> open eveolution -> indicator appears -> open pidgin -> minimize pidgin, then there's no indication that pidgin was minimized to the indicator, and nothing to suggest that
[12:22] <chrisccoulson> it's so non-discoverable
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> hey didrocks - i see you've taken the g-c-c update
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> you'r brave ;)
[13:08]  * seb128 kicks autotools
[13:08] <seb128> ./configure: line 20268: `SHAVE_INIT(., enable)
[13:09] <seb128> pitti, didn't you fix that the other day? or you just mixed the Makefile.am change in the autoreconf patch
[13:09] <seb128> it's gnome-panel
[13:09] <pitti> seb128: ah, might be that I accidentally put the .am change into 70_autoreconf indeed, sorry
[13:12] <asac> SHAVE_INIT ... lol
[13:13] <seb128> pitti, did you send the patch upstream? if not I will do that now
[13:13] <pitti> seb128: I didn't
[13:13] <seb128> ok, doing that now
[13:13] <pitti> merci!
[13:14] <pitti> so it is an actual bug in the Makefile.am then?
[13:14] <pitti> I wonder how upstream generated their configure then
[13:14] <seb128> well new autotools don't work correctly without that so I will send it as a "work with current autotools versions"
[13:15] <asac> pitti: whats the most modern way to attach .crash information to existing bugs? i guess apport-collect doesnt do that?
[13:16] <seb128> asac, you can't add informations to a bug and get those retraced, better to open a duplicate and close it once retraced
[13:21] <pitti> asac: right, what seb128 said; file a new bug and dupe as appropriate
[13:22] <asac> ok, so our wiki section is still up-to-date
[13:22] <asac> (mozillateam)
[13:26] <vuntz> seb128: no need to spam me with the SHAVE patch
[13:26] <vuntz> seb128: the right fix is to use automake 1.11 ;-)
[13:26] <seb128> vuntz, if you know about it you could have fixed it with 2.27.4
[13:27] <seb128> vuntz, what is wrong with using "ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -I m4"?
[13:27] <vuntz> seb128: you know that I hate packagers
[13:27] <vuntz> :-)
[13:27] <seb128> yeah I know
[13:27] <seb128> shame you are one now :-p
[13:29] <seb128> vuntz, still, why would "ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -I m4" be wrong?
[13:29] <seb128> vuntz, that fixes the SHAVE_INIT issue
[13:29] <vuntz> it's actually okay for gnome-panel
[13:29] <vuntz> but for some other modules, the m4 dir is only used for shave and will disappear soon
[13:29] <seb128> ok, so should I send you the patch or not? ;-)
[13:30] <vuntz> seb128: yeah, send it, I guess
[13:30] <seb128> well it's weird that GNOME requires an automake version which is not in most distros yet
[13:30] <vuntz> sad that I have to change my mind ;-)
[13:30] <seb128> lol
[13:30] <vuntz> you don't have automake 1.11?
[13:31] <seb128> no, neither has debian
[13:31] <vuntz> weird
[13:31] <seb128> why?
[13:32] <seb128> vuntz, the version is less than 2 months old
[13:32] <vuntz> I just thought you had it
[13:35] <didrocks> seb128: sorry for being silly, but what does this SHAVE_INIT autohell things do? (google was not my friend, there)
[13:35] <seb128> didrocks, it's a build errror
[13:36] <didrocks> seb128: SHAVE_INIT is an automake instruction, no?
[13:36] <seb128> didrocks, yes, it's the shaving thing to not display every compiler line
[13:37] <didrocks> seb128: ok, thanks
[13:37] <seb128> but just "CC object.o" lines
[13:37] <seb128> didrocks, see http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/NicerBuilds
[13:38] <didrocks> seb128: thanks for the link, reading it now.
[13:38] <seb128> brb trying new gnome-panel version
[13:41] <vuntz> tss
[13:41] <vuntz> gnome-panel --replace
[13:41] <vuntz> no need to log out
[13:42] <vuntz> 14:40 < vuntz> tss
[13:42] <vuntz> 14:41 < vuntz> gnome-panel --replace
[13:42] <vuntz> 14:41 < vuntz> no need to log out
[13:42] <seb128> vuntz, what GNOME version are you running?
[13:42] <vuntz> seb128: right now? It's a mix of a bit everything that was available mid-june
[13:42] <seb128> vuntz, what gnome-panel version on that?
[13:43] <vuntz> 2.26.2 in what I have
[13:43] <seb128> ok, you don't test tarballs you roll then ;-)
[13:43] <seb128> since 2.26.3 alt-f<n> shortcuts are broken when using a transparent background
[13:44] <seb128> I'm wondering if that's a side effect of a gtk change which arrived around the same time or something or due to gnome-panel
[13:44] <seb128> I guess I will have to downgrade to 2.26.2 to try
[13:44] <seb128> alt-f<n> as alt-f1 to open the applications menu and alt-f2 to run commands
[13:45] <seb128> it works when you use the default solid background though that's weird
[13:45] <asac> ouch. thats rogue. i think i upgraded to latest and now the applications menu is completely empty
[13:45] <vuntz> seb128: I certainly test gnome-panel in jhbuild
[13:45]  * asac killall gnome-panel
[13:46] <asac>  its back.
[13:46] <asac> seb128: ^^ known?
[13:46] <seb128> asac, yeah, you updated to the buggy version from yesterday which renamed the .menus by error
[13:47] <asac> hmm. maybe i should use the real archive and not a fast mirror
[13:47] <seb128> asac, the update fix that and clean the wrong files but that leads to this issue until restart
[13:47] <asac> seb128: ok so next update will have the same effect, right?
[13:47] <seb128> asac, it's working now?
[13:47] <asac> yes
[13:47] <asac> i ran killall gnome-panel
[13:47] <asac> and now all is back to normal
[13:47] <asac> but still i had no entries before doing this restart
[13:47] <seb128> asac, no, only people who will notice that are those who installed the buggy version which was available for some hours yesterday
[13:48] <asac> interesting
[13:48] <asac> i didnt upgrade yesterday i think
[13:48] <asac> but have to check
[13:48] <vuntz> seb128: but indeed, the alt+fn stuff is not working (not something I use all the time)
[13:48] <seb128> vuntz, I use alt-f1 to open menus and alt-f2
[13:48] <seb128> vuntz, it broke around the 2.26.3 time
[13:48] <asac> Log started: 2009-07-14  21:20:27
[13:48] <asac> Log started: 2009-07-16  12:18:04
[13:49] <seb128> asac, grep upgrade /var/log/dpkg.log | grep gnome-panel?
[13:49] <asac> so well. i guess 14th still counts as yesterday
[13:49] <seb128> ups
[13:49] <seb128> gnome-menus
[13:50] <asac> 2009-07-14 13:00:51 upgrade gnome-menus 2.26.1-0ubuntu1 2.26.2-0ubuntu1
[13:50] <asac> 2009-07-16 12:20:56 upgrade gnome-menus 2.26.2-0ubuntu1 2.27.4-0ubuntu1
[13:50] <asac> so even on the first upgrade on 14th
[13:50] <asac> so 2.26.2-0ubuntu1 was the broken one?
[13:51] <seb128> yes
[13:51] <asac> great. thanks.
[13:51] <seb128> you're welcome
[13:51] <seb128> it has been uploaded earlier that I though
[13:51] <asac> ack
[13:51] <asac> seems so
[13:51] <seb128> anyway only people who had this version will notice the issue
[13:51] <asac> i am even on a mirror that lacks behind like 3 hours i think
[13:52] <asac> the story is consistent so all fine ;)
[14:04] <seb128> vuntz, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=588776
[14:04] <asac> ccheney: is it true that openoffice.org-l10n needs xulrunner during build?
[14:04] <asac> its somehow on my ffox 3.5 TODO list to move that to 1.9.1
[14:15] <vuntz> seb128: feel free to commit, etc.
[14:15] <seb128> vuntz, ok, thanks ;-)
[14:31] <superm1> geser, thanks for that fix
[14:50] <rickspencer3> hi didrocks
[14:50] <didrocks> hey rickspencer3
[14:51] <rickspencer3> will you be available in about 2.5 hours?
[14:51]  * rickspencer3 has meetings for a while
[14:51] <didrocks> rickspencer3: no problem, I will be there :)
[14:51] <didrocks> (just ping me)
[14:53] <seb128> hey rickspencer3
[14:53] <rickspencer3> hi seb128
[14:53] <seb128> vuntz, do you still commit change entries? or do you git log to build the ChangeLog at tarball time?
[14:53] <seb128> vuntz, ok, ChangeLog explains that, ignore the question
[14:54] <pitti> hey rickspencer3
[14:54] <rickspencer3> hi pitti
[14:54] <rickspencer3> hi vuntz!
[14:58] <vuntz> hola rickspencer3
[14:59] <rickspencer3> vuntz: did you get the feedback that you needed from the ad board at Desktop Summit?
[14:59] <vuntz> yeah, was good feedback
[15:00] <vuntz> and positive feedback :-)
[15:00] <rickspencer3> good
[15:00] <rickspencer3> vuntz: are you seeing more contributions to gnome 3 now that you have set a target date?
[15:02] <vuntz> there's definitely more focus, and people are planning things to work well with the schedule
[15:03] <rickspencer3> great
[15:10] <ccheney> asac: well it needs it as much as openoffice.org itself does
[15:10] <ccheney> asac: just fixing openoffice.org will fix openoffice.org-l10n as it is just a copy
[15:11] <ccheney> asac: ooo-l10n is a copy of ooo with change of the package name to the changelog/control.in and regeneration of the control file
[15:17] <asac> ccheney: wow. that sounds scary. so what should i do in the ppa where i stage als the ports in your opinion? just upload both?
[15:35] <ccheney> asac: yea, upload the l10n making the changes i mentioned, it is documented in the ooo-l10n changelog as well
[15:48] <asac> ccheney: cant i just bump the version in the oo-l10n and upload that?
[15:48] <asac> its a no change upload
[15:50] <ccheney> oh, i see, yea that should work fine
[15:50] <ccheney> asac: ^, sorry i am a bit lagged i am in meetings all day
[15:51] <asac> alrighty
[15:52] <asac> hmm 76M diff
[15:52] <asac> ccheney: is that about right?
[15:52] <asac> for ooo
[15:54] <seb128> didrocks, g-c-c 2.27.4.1 for you
[15:55] <seb128> didrocks, they fixed a mistake in the tarball which made the previous version not build
[16:00] <Laney> can versions.html link to all relevant changelogs?
[16:09] <seb128> Laney, changelog?
[16:09] <seb128> Laney, it doesn't list changelogs
[16:09] <Laney> linking to them might be nice
[16:10] <seb128> ah that's a feature suggestion
[16:10] <Laney> ye
[16:10] <seb128> right, patch welcome ;-)
[16:10] <Laney> thought as much
[16:19] <ccheney> asac: i think that sounds right
[16:19] <ccheney> asac: somewhere in the 70-100MB range in any case
[16:19] <ccheney> asac: depends on how many GSI files are in the ooo-build section
[16:19] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson: you wanted to ask me something about gnome-control-center upstream?
[16:21] <chrisccoulson> hey rodrigo_ - it was gnome-settings-daemon actually. are you still the person to speak too?
[16:22] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson: one of them, yes :)
[16:22] <chrisccoulson> fantastic. i wouldn't mind someone reviewing a patch i wrote (if you have time, of course). i'll dig out the bug report number
[16:23] <rodrigo_> ok
[16:24] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_ - the number is gnome bug #573980
[16:27] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson: it's a bit long to have a look now (busy with work), so just ping me later or tomorrow, please, and I'll review/test/commit if it's ok
[16:28] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_ - no problem. Colin Walters left a comment yesterday, and I'll address that this evening
[16:28] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[16:28] <rodrigo_> yes, was going to ask you that, so yes please
[16:52] <didrocks> seb128: ok, thanks
[16:56] <rickspencer3> didrocks: ping
[16:58] <rickspencer3> didrocks: can you hop into #quickly when you are ready to discuss release management for quickly?
[16:58] <rickspencer3> anyone else interested in quickly can surely hop in too
[17:00] <rickspencer3> interesting gnome-shell variant proposed here: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/A+Gnome-Shell+Variant?action=content&content=108332
[17:16] <seb128> pedro_, those nautilus crashes, look to the stacktrace that's useful
[17:22] <pedro_> seb128: just started to processing them, btw it's my idea or we are getting some more crashes related to the ubuntu-one client lately?
[17:22] <seb128> pedro_, I've just reassigned a bunch of nautilus bugs to ubuntuone indeed, look to the stacktrace
[17:22] <seb128> pedro_, when the crash is in libnautilus-ubuntuone.so
[17:23] <pedro_> yeah
[17:23] <seb128> it's an ubuntuone bug, I reassigning to ubuntuone-client
[17:23] <seb128> reassign
[17:23] <seb128> dobey, ^ ubuntuone-nautilus is crash land
[17:29] <kklimonda> wasn't it fixed few days ago already?
[17:32] <chrisccoulson> yeah, but people might still be running an outdated version
[17:32] <chrisccoulson> remember they might not get notified of a new update for up to 7 days as it isnt a security update
[17:33] <chrisccoulson> so people will still be reporting duplicates from the old version
[17:33] <chrisccoulson> (if its the same crash that i'm thinking of anyway)
[17:35] <kklimonda> heh, another reason why the new update notification system need serious tweaking? Was package urgency considered as another factor that change notification delay? is it even possible to use it like that?
[17:36] <chrisccoulson> kklimonda - no idea, i'm not involved with that, and i don't use the new system
[17:40] <dobey> seb128: the non-file uri crash?
[17:40] <seb128> dobey, dunno, I've not tried to look at the issue I've just reassigned to ubuntuone-client everything which crashed in libnautilus-ubuntuone.so
[17:41] <dobey> seb128: ok, thanks
[17:42] <didrocks> pitti: sorry for the mail spamming on distutils bug but it seems that launchpad has hard time with ajax & traditional status update at the same time
[17:42] <pitti> didrocks: I know, many people (including myself) stumble over this
[17:51] <seb128> didrocks, pitti: bug #400222?
[17:52] <seb128> ups
[17:52] <seb128> bug #400307
[17:52] <didrocks> seb128: confirmed :)
[17:54] <pitti> seb128: right, 400307 is it
[18:14] <pitti> good night everyone
[18:35] <tgpraveen2> hey now that empathy is default in karmic
[18:35] <tgpraveen2> does it work with messaging indicator?
[18:35] <tgpraveen2>  and also the appending of new messages to notify-osd notifications?
[18:35] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: yes
[18:35] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: yes to both?
[18:36] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: sorry I didn't see the second part as I answered
[18:36] <jcastro> tgpraveen2: the m-i support has a patch being prepared, I don't think it's in karmic yet though
[18:36] <jcastro> I think it's in kenvandine's ppa though
[18:36] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: so works with messaging indicator but not appending msgs in notfiy-osd?
[18:36] <tgpraveen2> jcastro: and the notify-osd support?
[18:37] <jcastro> no idea
[18:37] <tgpraveen2> for appending to notifications
[18:37] <tgpraveen2> ok
[18:37] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: Just double checking now. Yes notify-osd work with salut/bonjour
[18:38] <davmor2> not m-i yet though it still has it's own icon
[18:38] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: u mean the way it works with pidgin that is the notification bubble is appended with new message as it arrives?
[18:39] <davmor2> jcastro: do you know if anyone is introducing the 2.27.4 version on a ppa yet at all?
[18:39] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: use the daily ppa
[18:39] <tgpraveen2> of empathy
[18:40] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: no it isn't doing extended currently yet I don't think
[18:40] <jcastro> davmor2: no idea, I assume that it gets worked on the same time as the other gnome stuff
[18:41] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: fresh announce for each mail but only while the window is closed
[18:41] <davmor2> jcastro: ta :)
[18:42] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: once the window is open the task button on the bottom bar flashes and notify-osd isn't used
[18:43] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: hmm ok
[18:44] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: It'll need work and I found another bug Yay ;)
[18:44] <tgpraveen2> kenvandine: ping. will u do the work on adding appending messages to notfiy-osd bubbles for empathy. and will it be available in ur ppa?
[18:44] <tgpraveen2> davmor2: what bug?
[18:45] <davmor2> osd not being used when the window is open even when it is not the selected window
[18:46] <davmor2> tgpraveen2: ie with firefox open and selected pidgin would use n-osd where as empathy uses it while it has no window open but once the chat window is open it only flashes on the bottom bar
[18:50] <antileet> Hi folks, is this the place to get feedback on tools that might potentially help the ubuntu desktop user? If not where do I go for feedback on a tool I wrote.
[18:51] <seb128> antileet, you can comment there on email the ubuntu-desktop list
[18:52] <seb128> Zdra, cassidy: will the vnc sharing thing be in 2.28?
[18:52] <antileet> seb128, okay. I'd written a tool earlier which I abandoned - http://code.google.com/p/diagnosis-helper/ I wanted to know if you guys think it'll be useful so I can continue work on it
[18:53] <seb128> better to email the list maybe
[18:53] <seb128> so you reach a higher number of people there
[18:54] <antileet> seb128: Okay, I was hoping to get some realtime feedback here, I'll post to the list instead :) You folks keep up the fantastic work
[19:00]  * rickspencer3-afk figured out how to do /nick with empathy
[19:03] <chrisccoulson> rickspencer3-afk - would you like to share? ;)
[19:03] <chrisccoulson> (although, i have to admit - i didn't try to figure it out yet)
[19:29] <Keybuk> walters: so, apparently it's impossible to build D-Bus 1.2.16 with --enable-tests on Ubuntu
[19:30] <walters> Keybuk: pastebin?
[19:30] <Keybuk> walters: on another machine, but basically issues with pthread_cond_var_wait_timeout not existing
[19:31] <Keybuk> and I guess missing -lrt for clock_gettime as well
[19:31] <Keybuk> I'm guessing it's depending on glibc 2.10 features ?
[19:32] <walters> man, i told myself two days of dbus this week, at 4 now =/
[19:32] <walters> anyways it's definitely possible the configure checks are wrong, let me look again
[19:33] <walters> Keybuk: you want this stuff to work though, because I *believe* it will fix the problem case of suspend with active dbus calls
[19:37] <walters> Keybuk: are your builders older?
[19:37] <walters> old kernel, i mean
[19:42] <Keybuk> walters: Ubuntu still has 2.9
[19:42] <Keybuk> we haven't updated to 2.10 yet
[19:42] <walters> speaking of libc, are you guys following the debian fork?
[19:42] <Keybuk> walters: probably
[19:43] <walters> alright, not sure if it matters here, probably not, just curious
[19:43] <walters> Keybuk: if you can get me a configure+build output that would help a lot
[19:44] <Keybuk> sure, building now
[19:47] <Keybuk> walters: http://people.canonical.com/~scott/build.log
[19:49] <Keybuk> that's on karmic
[19:49] <Keybuk> on jaunty, you get more
[19:49] <walters> interesting so it seems like the AC_TRY_COMPILE succeeded, but we failed to link
[19:50] <walters> we should probably replace that with AC_TRY_LINK
[19:51] <walters> Keybuk: i see -lpthread and -lrt in your log
[19:51] <davmor2> Guys to use empathy's audio/video capabilities you need to set up the hardware in Sys->Prefs->Sound however in karmic this is missing from the menu options so how can this be done?  Or is this something that will remedied shortly?
[19:52] <walters> oh hmm, in the test utils
[19:52] <Keybuk> walters: right, in the wrong order though
[19:52] <Keybuk> walters: libdbus-convenience.la doesn't declare a dep on them, so libtool won't get them in the right place in the linker line
[19:53] <walters> Keybuk: yep, so we need a LIBADD for that
[19:55] <walters> Keybuk: testing this patch now: http://fpaste.org/paste/18981
[20:00] <walters> Keybuk: well it builds for me, but then again it did before (maybe bits of -lrt are in pthread in 2.10?)
[20:01] <Keybuk> walters: entirely possible, yeah
[20:10] <chrisccoulson> davmor2 - that shortcut was for the old sound capplet, which is deprecated upstream and pitti removed from g-c-c this week
[20:11] <chrisccoulson> you tried installing gnome-volume-control-pulse? does that do what you want?
[20:11] <davmor2> chrisccoulson: I'll have a look thanks :)
[20:11] <chrisccoulson> btw seb128 - whats happening with gnome-media this cycle? are we migrating to gnome-volume-control by default, or sticking with the mixer-applet and gst-mixer?
[20:12] <seb128> chrisccoulson, we are switching to pulse only, g-c-c has been changed and I was meant to drop the gnome-media split
[20:12] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I will do that tonight, did you want to do it?
[20:13] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i'll have a look at it if i get the chance. but if i don't get it done tonight, then don't block on me - i've still got some other stuff to do first ;)
[20:13] <seb128> chrisccoulson, let me do it I've not so many things to do tonight and I want something easy, ie not too much thinking ;-)
[20:13] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that's ok. put your feet up for a bit ;)
[20:14] <seb128> be back in 15 minutes or so
[20:15] <chrisccoulson> i wish it would stop raining here
[20:17] <didrocks> it will rain very soon (and in a hard way apparently) here.
[20:17] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - yeah, it's been raining quite heavy here
[20:17] <chrisccoulson> and i have a leaking roof
[20:18] <chrisccoulson> must sort it out this weekend ;)
[20:18] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: sure, that's more important than a gnome-* patch :)
[20:18] <didrocks> just fix your roof!
[20:18] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - i'm not sure about that. the bit that's leaking doesn't cover anything important.
[20:18] <chrisccoulson> and doing ubuntu stuff is more interesting ;)
[20:18] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: sure, I understand ^^
[20:19] <didrocks> (and agree)
[20:19] <chrisccoulson> what i should do really is pretend to be sick tomorrow and take the day off work, fix it during the day and then work on ubuntu from the afternoon like usual
[20:19] <chrisccoulson> ;)
[20:20] <didrocks> hum, are you sure that you will fix it during the day and not rush on ubuntu? :)
[20:21] <chrisccoulson> well, i can do a quick job on the roof so that it doesn't leak for a few weeks
[20:23] <walters> Keybuk: gotta context switch for a bit, let me know about the patch
[20:23] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, i probably should have sent an e-mail out on the devel list yesterday about the gnome-session / consolekit issue and tell people they shouldn't upgrade consolekit without upgrading gnome-session
[20:24] <didrocks> the new consolekit is incompatible with the previous gnome-session ?
[20:24] <chrisccoulson> the new consolekit exposes a crash in the old gnome-session, which makes it crash as soon as you log in, and causes your whole session to stop working
[20:25] <chrisccoulson> pitti held off uploading consolekit until i fixed gnome-session, and i assumed people would upgrade them both, but someone just reported a bug on LP saying they can't log in anymore after updating some packages
[20:25] <didrocks> oh ok :/
[20:25] <Keybuk> walters: will test tomorrow
[20:26] <didrocks> so, yes, a mail is needed
[20:26] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - it's probably a bit late now ;)
[20:26] <didrocks> of pitti could have put a conflict: gnome-session << ?
[20:26] <didrocks> (when you read that pitti, please, let me know why you didn't do that, as you are surely smarter than I :))
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> i'm not sure it's worth adding conflicts like that due to transient bugs in the development release
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> i could be wrong though ;)
[20:28] <davmor2> chrisccoulson: can you not do gnome-fix-my-roof patch :)
[20:28] <didrocks> I'm not aware of that policy… that's clear that's extra uneeded bits
[20:28] <chrisccoulson> davmor2 - i tried that. i struggled to get it to build, and when i did, it leaks even worse
[20:28] <chrisccoulson> i'll have to run my roof through valgrind
[20:28]  * chrisccoulson gets coat
[20:29] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: do you know some good documentation for all this {console;policy;*}-kit things? I tried 2 monthes before to take a look at that and even packagekit seems not well documented
[20:29] <didrocks> … or my google is broken :)
[20:30] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, i'm not sure about that. i don't know how well the new policykit is documented
[20:30] <chrisccoulson> probably not very well yet, i haven't looked though
[20:30] <didrocks> I really don't know how pitti had be able to manage devicekit transition with so few documentation :)
[20:31] <chrisccoulson> heh, yeah, i'm not sure either
[20:36] <chrisccoulson> wow, over 400 new bugs today
[20:39] <didrocks> close the pipe :)
[20:43] <chrisccoulson> are you nearly ready for the weekend didrocks?
[20:44] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: nearly ready for a "quickly developping" weekend ;)
[20:44] <didrocks> and you?
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm always ready for the weekend on thursdays. i finish work at lunchtime on friday
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> i'll be spending my weekend painting probably
[20:46] <didrocks> cool!
[20:46] <didrocks> time have my lunch. Not sure I will be back later. Have a good night!
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> and you too. enjoy your lunch
[20:46] <didrocks> s/lunch/dinner ;)
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> lol
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i did wonderl)(
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> late lunch!
[20:47] <didrocks> technically, I didn't have the time to take my lunch, so… :)
[20:47] <chrisccoulson> i always make time for lunch ;)
[20:47] <didrocks> hehe ;)
[21:22] <pitti> didrocks: no conflict> I simply forgot; partial upgrades FTL :/
[21:22] <pitti> didrocks: but if we'd do that for every glich we upload to karmic, we would collect them by the hundreds
[21:22] <pitti> I don't think it's worth doing that
[21:24] <pitti> bryce: hm, X keeps crashing durig gdm for me now; downgrading -intel from git20090716.a1e6abb5 to git20090715.b74bf3f9 fixed it
[21:24] <pitti> where should I report that?
[21:26] <bryce> hrm
[21:26] <bryce> xserver-xorg-video-intel
[21:27] <bryce> or feel free to report it directly upstream at freedesktop.org
[21:27] <pitti> ok, so xorg-edgers doesn't have any magic patches over them
[21:28] <bryce> no, in fact they generally have patches removed (nothing major)
[21:28] <pitti> nothing helpful in xorg.log, unfortunately
[21:28] <bryce> gdm logs might have something
[21:29] <pitti> :0-greeter.log.1 has lots and lots of warnings
[21:29] <pitti> but they are pretty much the same after downgrade
[21:29] <pitti> and mostly gtkish
[21:30] <pitti> ok, will do tomorrow
[21:30] <pitti> that was just supposed to be a quick mail check before bed time :)
[21:30] <pitti> cu all!
[21:31] <seb128> 'night pitti
[23:29] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - you had any luck running gnome-shell?
[23:29] <chrisccoulson> i just tried it for the first time and i get a screen full of garbage when i run it
[23:29] <seb128> chrisccoulson, yes, it works fine there in xephyr and normal use
[23:30] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm
[23:30] <seb128> you use the ppa version?
[23:30] <chrisccoulson> yeah, thats the one
[23:30] <seb128> in xephyr?
[23:31] <chrisccoulson> i'm just running "gnome-shell -r" from my normal session
[23:31] <seb128> if you run "gnome-shell" it will start in xephyr (if it's installed)
[23:31] <chrisccoulson> ah, i'll try that instead
[23:31] <chrisccoulson> i really need to get karmic on some real hardware this weekend
[23:32] <seb128> is your video card and driver working for easy bling, ie compositing, opengl, etc
[23:33] <chrisccoulson> the video driver works fine on my real desktop, but i'm currently running karmic in VMWare, which doesn't really support compositing
[23:33] <seb128> I doubt gnome-shell will work without compositing and opengl working
[23:33] <chrisccoulson> ah, that could be why i see the display corruption then
[23:33] <seb128> there is no software rendering fallback you need bling to work to run it
[23:34] <chrisccoulson> is there any plan for a fallback? or will we all have to have proper graphics hardware to run gnome 3?
[23:34] <seb128> excellent question
[23:35] <chrisccoulson> that's not good if there is no fallback :-/
[23:35] <seb128> upstream opinion is that a fallback is not required in gnome-shell, by then they think videodrivers should be there
[23:35] <seb128> we sort of disagree and that's why we don't plan to have gnome-shell in the default install before the coming lts
[23:35] <seb128> or we need to find an acceptable fallback on old components
[23:36] <seb128> anyway it's a pending issue and a concern but upstream opinion is that we can't lower on the lowest quality configurations
[23:36] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm not sure that everyone will be running good graphics hardware. especially with people using virtualization and thin clients etc
[23:36] <seb128> ie for a modern desktop experience you need modern hardware
[23:36] <seb128> we have an open question on that, let's see how things turn
[23:37] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it will be interesting
[23:37] <chrisccoulson> i get the feeling that things perhaps haven't been thought through all that much ;)
[23:37] <chrisccoulson> i could be wrong though
[23:37] <seb128> the driver requirement?
[23:38] <seb128> it has, that has been discussed for a while on the upstream list
[23:38] <seb128> upstream's opinion is that you need modern hardware for a modern desktop experience
[23:38] <chrisccoulson> i've probably got that discussion in my inbox somewhere. i really should get round to reading my emails more often
[23:39] <seb128> they claim that any card shipped those 7 most recent years should be able to run bling and that drivers are becoming better at supporting recent cards
[23:39] <seb128> which some people disagree on
[23:39] <seb128> well they are not interested spending effort for fallback solutions anyway
[23:40] <seb128> ie you have a setup not working with desktop effects you can keep using GNOME2
[23:40] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i think there will still be corner cases like the ones i've identified. i'm sure my 8800GTX card will be able to do the bling quite easily - but if i want to fire up a VM to do some work without breaking my main desktop, then i wouldnt be able to do that
[23:41] <seb128> right, will be interesting to see how they deal with that
[23:41] <chrisccoulson> of course, perhaps i'll be able to run virtualized hardware with hardware graphics acceleration at some point in the future
[23:41] <chrisccoulson> that would be nice:)
[23:41] <seb128> that was sort of their reply I think
[23:42] <seb128> that the stack becomes better and that effects should work on thin clients, virtualization, etc too
[23:42] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that would be ideal
[23:42] <seb128> that seems to be optimistic to say that we will be there in 1.5 cycle though
[23:43] <chrisccoulson> i think so. but i think it is optimistic that gnome-shell could replace the existing components in the timeframes they are talking about too
[23:43]  * TheMuso has a matrox G550 card here that is 6 years old and cannot do any bling, dispite having 32MB of video ram. Added to that, I've seen 32MB cards do bling quite ok, probably ATI or NVIDIA, but still possible.
[23:44] <seb128> hey TheMuso
[23:44] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - i'll be glad for something that makes use of my video card. my card hardly gets used here ;)
[23:44] <TheMuso> Hey seb128.
[23:45] <chrisccoulson> and it takes up the space of two bays
[23:45] <seb128> TheMuso, we have switched gnome-control-center and gnome-media to use the new GNOME sounds capplet now
[23:45] <TheMuso> Yeah video cards are getting too big IMO.
[23:45] <seb128> ie pulseaudio only
[23:45] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i managed to get it running in xephyr
[23:45] <seb128> just for information
[23:45] <chrisccoulson> looks a bit rough around the edges though
[23:45] <TheMuso> ok thanks for the heads up.
[23:45] <seb128> chrisccoulson, interesting
[23:46] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that is pretty strange
[23:46] <TheMuso> chrisccoulson: Does it have a big heatsink on it?
[23:46] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - my graphics card is so long that it splits the top and bottom of my case completely in two, and stops the airflow
[23:46] <chrisccoulson> so everything else in there cooks
[23:46] <TheMuso> yep
[23:47] <chrisccoulson> i also had to grind down some fins on my chipset heatsink to get it in
[23:47] <TheMuso> Right. Its getting crazy with those stupidly big video cards.
[23:47] <chrisccoulson> it reaches from the back of the case to my hard disk caddy, so i reckon it's probably just under 1ft in length
[23:48] <TheMuso> Yeah, I've seen an 8800GTS about that size.
[23:48] <chrisccoulson> it's crazy. i never thought that it wouldn't fit in my big case before i bought it
[23:48] <TheMuso> Yeah one has to be careful when buying higher end PCI Express video cards these days.
[23:49] <chrisccoulson> TheMuso - just to change the subject - you're an admin for ubuntu-universe-sponsors aren't you?
[23:49] <TheMuso> chrisccoulson: Yes, would you like to be added? Whats your LP username?
[23:50] <chrisccoulson> i would if you don't mind:) my username is chrisccoulson
[23:50] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[23:50] <TheMuso> ok np
[23:51] <TheMuso> Done.
[23:51] <chrisccoulson> thank you:)
[23:51] <TheMuso> You're welcome.