[00:18] <NCommander> Hey all. Anyone around who can reset my bugcontrol membership so it doesn't expire?
[00:23] <hggdh> NCommander, bdmurray, or ogasawara, I think
[00:23] <ogasawara> NCommander: I can update it, just a sec
[00:24] <bdmurray> ogasawara: please don't
[00:24] <bdmurray> NCommander: as a developer you are a member of the team already so your membership is redundant
[00:25] <ogasawara> bdmurray: ah, so if his personal membership expires he'll still have membership through the team.  roger that.
[00:26] <bdmurray> ogasawara: right, he just won't be a "direct" member which is what I'd prefer
[00:26] <ogasawara> bdmurray: ok cool, I leave it alone then
[00:28] <NCommander> bdmurray, oh, that's freaking odd. LP really should notify you better in that case
[00:29] <NCommander> bdmurray, I didn't know that little tidbit, thanks :-)
[00:29] <bdmurray> NCommander: No problem, thanks for understanding!
[00:35] <micahg> bdmurray: I wanted to ask you about the needs packaging bugs
[00:36] <micahg> is this a case where we can confirm our own bugs?
[00:36] <micahg> why not use the triaged state?
[00:39] <bdmurray> I'd say confirmed if really doesn't exist and triaged if doesn't exist and has license info + upstream url
[00:39] <micahg> ok, should the wiki be updated to reflect that?
[00:39] <micahg> that makes sense
[00:40] <bdmurray> okay, well if makes sense to someone else sure!
[00:40] <micahg> also, should the upstream url be to the site or to the tarball?
[00:40] <bdmurray> site I think is sufficient
[00:40] <micahg> ok
[00:42] <micahg> how I do I indent under a bullet?
[00:44] <micahg> neverminf
[00:44] <micahg> *nevermind
[00:44] <kakemann> Hi Guys! If I find a bug that is already reported upstream and link it, with "also affects this project", is it nescessary to anything else with status and importance?
[00:45] <bdmurray> kakemann: no, the upstreams status and importance will get auto updated
[00:45] <kakemann> bdmurray: Ok, that was what i thougt, just wanted to make sure. Thanks
[00:51] <micahg> bdmurray: do we want to request packaging in debian for stuff requested for Ubuntu in case they can do it first?
[00:52] <bdmurray> micahg: I don't think so due to the tremendous volume of needs-packaging requests that we receive
[00:52] <micahg> ok
[03:08] <bcurtiswx> anyone here get empathys sound events to work?
[03:15] <Laibsch> Why does "ldd /usr/lib/Adobe/Reader8/Reader/intellinux/bin/acroread" tell me "/usr/bin/ldd: line 117: /usr/lib/Adobe/Reader8/Reader/intellinux/bin/acroread: No such file or directory" when the file is right there?
[03:15] <Laibsch> I'm trying to investigate why karmic FF3.5 recently started crashing when a tab with a PDF is closed
[03:39] <bcurtiswx> bug #400485 O:-)
[03:39] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 400485 in empathy "Empathy sounds not in default ubuntu theme" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400485
[06:27] <dholbach> good morning
[07:20] <micahg> is there another app on KDE instead of synaptic?
[07:34] <micahg> hey thekorn
[07:35] <thekorn> hi micahg !
[07:35] <micahg> can you answer a few questions for the hugday?
[07:35] <micahg> are you familiar with synaptic?
[07:36] <thekorn> micahg, don't know, just ask you questions, I'll try my best to answer them
[07:37] <micahg> is there another app on KDE instead of synaptic?
[07:37] <thekorn> or maybe someone of the > 100 people in here knows the answer ;)
[07:37] <micahg> well already asked that 17 minutes ago
[07:37] <Hellow> Hmm
[07:37] <micahg> Hi Hellow
[07:38] <Hellow> I heard they replaced the old KDE package manager with a newer one - but I forgot what it is
[07:38] <micahg> bug 82959 would be wishlist if there is
[07:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 82959 in synaptic "synaptic tries to run gksu on kubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/82959
[07:38] <Hellow> There is a KDE package manager
[07:39] <Hellow> I know that much
[07:42] <thekorn> isn't it adept?
[07:42] <Hellow> Yes. thats it
[07:44] <micahg> yeah
[07:44] <micahg> ok
[07:45] <micahg> so that
[07:47] <micahg> next Q, does synaptic get its list of filters from apt or internally?
[07:47] <micahg> bug 91167
[07:47] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 91167 in synaptic "wish: obsolete / "upgrade only" packages should be hidden" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/91167
[07:47] <micahg> I think this is already done
[07:50] <micahg> but I don't know enmough about synaptic, I have an obsolete filter
[07:57] <thekorn> micahg, honestyl, I don't understand which kid of feature the reporter would like to see in synaptic,
[07:58] <thekorn> but since this bugreport is kind of old, what about aksing him if this obsolete status filter you described above is what he was looking for
[08:00] <thekorn> micahg, and my opinion about the bugreport about using synaptic on kde: I think it is won't fix or invalid since kde has it's own tools for such tasks
[08:01] <thekorn> which should do a much better job, per definition
[08:03] <micahg> well, I would think it's a simple fix to use gksu or kdesu
[08:04] <micahg> It's not like their asking to drop gtk or something
[08:48] <moxo> hi! I've installed a PPA for xorg some weeks ago. now my update manager wants to update X11. will my manually installed PPA get lost once I let the update manager update xorg?
[08:51] <micahg> moxo: regular support in #ubuntu
[08:51] <micahg> please :)
[08:51] <micahg> this channel is for bug triagin
[08:51] <micahg> g
[09:01] <dholbach> try #ubuntu-x
[09:02] <moxo> ok
[14:56] <bcurtiswx> bug #400485
[14:56] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 400485 in empathy "Empathy sounds not in default ubuntu theme" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400485
[14:56] <bcurtiswx> O:-)
[15:54] <bdmurray> mvo: can you add my patch to software-properties in bug 399864?
[15:54] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 399864 in software-properties "add-apt-repository typ" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/399864
[15:54] <bdmurray> mvo: also where is the bzr branch for that now?
[15:58] <mvo> bdmurray: sure, doing that now
[15:58] <mvo> bdmurray: is it not there with lp:software-properties ?
[15:58]  * mvo checks the setup
[15:59] <bdmurray> mvo: its not and there is no xvcs bit in the package
[16:00] <mvo> bdmurray: ups, sorry for that. I fix it now
[16:00] <bdmurray> mvo: great thanks!
[16:05] <mvo> bdmurray: hm, I don't own it currently, I asked riddel to give me access
[16:42] <dtchen> bdmurray: pong, are you still experiencing the "only-stereo-speakers" symptom? (sorry about the lag; i'm travelling internationally ATM)
[16:43] <bdmurray> dtchen: nope, its working now
[16:43] <dtchen> bdmurray: ok
[16:43] <bdmurray> thanks for asking
[21:50] <jander991> Hello all.
[21:54] <jander991> I'm looking for some direction.  I'd like to help with cleaning up the "New / Undecided" bugs.  Doing a quick search, sorted by "Least Recently Changed," displays bug reports from over 2 years ago.  How should I proceed with these bugs? Most are from Fiesty/Edgy and I'm sure they have just been abandoned.
[22:01] <mrooney> jander991: that is a great thing to do!
[22:01] <mrooney> there has been discussion of this before, I don't remember exactly, it probably deserves a wiki page if there isn't one
[22:02] <jander991> mrooney: so there's no set procedure for bugs that have been long-abandoned?
[22:02] <mrooney> there may be, I just don't know it off-hand, I'd ask bdmurray or perhaps hggdh
[22:03] <mrooney> there is a stock response I think
[22:05] <mrooney> jander991:  there are a couple useful things to do though certainly
[22:05] <mrooney> if there are bugs marked as incomplete without a response, you can Invalidate them
[22:06] <mrooney> and bugs NOT in incomplete status that haven't been touched for so long, so probably either be marked incomplete or invalid
[22:06] <jander991> mrooney: Thanks, I've been trying to find a definition of the statuses available to me, and leaning toward invalid.
[22:07] <mrooney> this is a good resource: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[22:07] <mrooney> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase more generally
[22:08] <mrooney> jander991: if the bug is against unsupported distros there is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Distro%20has%20reached%20EOL
[22:09] <mrooney> Edgy, Feisty and Gutsy are unsupported so if they are things you can attempt to reproduce, you can triage them that way
[22:09] <jander991> mrooney: ok, thanks.  I'll give these a read.  Considering there are over 23,000 bugs marked New/Undecided, I wanna make sure I do right by those 23,000 people who took the time to fill out *something* heh
[22:09] <mrooney> yeah definitely good :)
[22:09] <mrooney> cleaning out the least recently touched bugs is definitely a good place to start
[22:10] <mrooney> just keep in mind you have two very different sets of users: ones that have long been ignored and ones that have been long ignoring triagers asking questions
[22:13] <jander991> mrooney: Indeed.  I know the bugs I've filed have sometimes "fallen of deaf ears" as it were.  Typically, however, new releases have fixed issues.  But even I've been lax in going and closing my own bugs.
[22:13] <mrooney> yeah, bugsquad can definitely use more help :)
[22:14] <jander991> mrooney: Be around a bit? Gonna read those links you provided me, might have a question or two.
[22:14] <mrooney> yeah certainly
[22:15] <mrooney> don't be afraid to ask anything!
[22:16] <mrooney> I think it would be neat to have a metric over time of 1) how long ago was the least-recently updated bug and 2) the average "age" of all bugs and try to get those down
[23:05] <hggdh> jander991: for bugs long-abandoned: first try to reproduce it on a current version; if it is still there, then update the description as shown in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Description
[23:06] <hggdh> jander991: also, add a comment asking if this bug is still an issue, ask about it. There is a stock response at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Old%20untouched%20bugs
[23:06] <hggdh> jander991: and finally: thank you for helping
[23:07] <jander991> hggdh: Hello.  Thanks for a response.  I've been marking them Incomplete, and attached the EOL message if I can determine the age of the release.
[23:07] <hggdh> :-)
[23:08] <hggdh> jander991: hum. Although the released might have reached EOL, the bug might be still existent on a supported release.
[23:09] <jander991> hggdh: It'd be almost impossibly show to attempt recreating some of these bugs, though.  Especially in software I don't normally use.  Should I leave them as "New / Undecided" or at least mark them Incomplete or Invalid according to the "Responses" policies and attach the message asking the reporter to confirm if it exists in a supported release?
[23:10] <hggdh> jander991: I would go with "Incomplete/is this still an issue on supported releases" option, then give it some 3 weeks. No response after that, close invalid
[23:11] <jander991> hddgh: With my default permissions on launchpad, does marking it "Invalid" close it altogether?
[23:11] <hggdh> jander991: yes, invalid is a final state. Also, I agree that for many packages it may not be possible to test.
[23:12] <jander991> hddgh: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rsibreak/+bug/118769  Something like this?
[23:12] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 118769 in rsibreak "countdown counter is clipped while drawing rsibreak screen and user is typing" [Undecided,Incomplete]
[23:12] <hggdh> looking it up
[23:13] <jander991> Thanks.  I'd like to make sure I'm doing it correctly enough just to get the 'New' marked off these 2+ year old bugs. :)
[23:15] <hggdh> jander991: yes, perfect. You will get an added bonus if you check is the package still exists on recent releases (you can look at, for example. http://packages.ubuntu.com, or try 'dpkg -l name\*')
[23:15] <hggdh> BTW the bonus is just theoretical ;-) -- our unbounded gratitude :-)
[23:16] <jander991> hddgh: Yes, I've been looking through my local apt, since I have all ubuntu repos enabled.  Unfortunately sometimes a version number is missing from launchpad.
[23:17] <jander991> moving to laptop, sun has come out in Georgia.
[23:18] <jander99> Well that explains why my name was taken, was already logged in!
[23:20] <jander99> hggdh: Is there any reason these bugs haven't been tackled before? Just lack of person-power to go through them?
[23:21] <mrooney> I think so
[23:22] <mrooney> but also by definition you are looking at old bugs
[23:22] <mrooney> so inherently they are untackled
[23:22] <mrooney> if I look at the oldest bugs after you clean up a bunch, I could say the same thing :)
[23:24] <jander99> I almost hope to spark a discussion on how older bugs could be solidly tackled.  Since there are procedures for new bugs, especially ones easily found in other bug trackers.  I feel as though I'm attempting to force a newer method of triage on older bugs.  I know it'd be easier to just mark them all invalid, and start over with new, more complete bugs, but I know that isn't the answer.
[23:27] <bcurtiswx> hey everyone, anyone else think this bug #400485 is a fairly important one?
[23:27] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 400485 in ubuntu-sounds "Empathy sounds not in default ubuntu theme" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400485
[23:27] <hggdh> jander99: it is mostly lack of manpower. Almost all of us here are volunteers...
[23:28] <hggdh> every bug is a bug, and should be tackled. Unfortunately, most triagers tend to look a new, current bugs only
[23:29] <jander99> hggdh: Understood.  With the economy I...have some time on my hands now...so I'd like to at least contribute in some fashion.  If cleaning up launchpad so a better understanding of the numbers benefits the ones who have more experience in looking through bugs, I'd like to help in the best possible way I can.  I know when I first started looking for a way to help, I just saw numbers, lots and lots of numbers.
[23:30] <hggdh> upstream gnome, for example, has an approach on *new* bugs on older versions: they only accept bugs for the last two versions. But still, there are many old bugs untouched there...
[23:31] <hggdh> if you are willing to look at the old bugs, thank you. We need it.
[23:31] <hggdh> and yes, I *know* about the economy ;-)  am an independent consultant
[23:33] <bcurtiswx> hggdh and his cali ways :P
[23:33] <hggdh> uh?
[23:34] <bcurtiswx> s/cali/consult
[23:34] <hggdh> ah. Indeed.
[23:34] <jander99> hggdh: Willing to help if I can pad my resume a bit ;-)  But in all honestly, I hate not feeling useful at the moment, so I need to make myself useful.
[23:34] <bcurtiswx> jander99: interested in ubuntu bug triage?
[23:35] <bcurtiswx> its volunteer, but you get rewarded with people like hggdh
[23:35] <hggdh> jander99: triaging you are being *extremely* useful, and we will thank you again and again
[23:35] <bcurtiswx> and again and again.....
[23:36] <hggdh> unfortunately, it will do not much, in the short term, to feed you. But, in the medium/long term, can be added to your resume, like "Member of the Ubuntu Community". By itself pays nothing, but I am very proud of it
[23:37] <bcurtiswx> please kick me out if my responses are intrusive and annoying.. but hggdh is right.. we are all very proud of what we do with Ubuntu
[23:37] <jander99> Thanks guys.  I'd just like to make sure I'm doing it correctly rather than incorrectly.  I think for the next few days, I'm only going to see bugs that are 2 years old.  So no doubt they don't come close to Hardy+ at which point I'll need more guidance on how to deal with 'em.
[23:37] <hggdh> bcurtiswx: no, we do not kick people outta here ;-)
[23:38] <hggdh> jander99: if in doubt, please do ask for help. Any one of us here (and, in particular, the channel managers) will be happy to help out
[23:38] <hggdh> BTW, no, I am *not* a channel manager
[23:39] <bcurtiswx> channel managers?
[23:39] <hggdh> er, the bugmaisters
[23:39] <hggdh> Brian, Leann, Pedro, etc
[23:39] <bcurtiswx> ahh, ok
[23:40] <hggdh> shoot! s/bugmAisters/bugmEisters/ Not even my German works today :-(
[23:40] <bcurtiswx> i don't have german skillz :P
[23:40] <jander99> Well luckily I'm mostly dealing with bugs against what I would consider old versions, so the default "Can you try with the latest Ubuntu release?" message seems fitting, for now.
[23:41] <jander99> heh I learned sed the other weekend when I attmpted Linux from Scratch in a VM.
[23:42] <jander99> And by attempted I mean, got the point it was alot of typing and realized I'd learned enough.
[23:42] <hggdh> and I have a broken German. Married one, with grandparents that decided I not only spoke German, but the dialect of their villages. Unfortunately, they were from 3 different villages, and two rather differetn areas of germany
[23:42] <hggdh> heh. jander99, it is a good experience
[23:43] <jander99> hddgh: Yes, it gave me an appreciation of having others build a distro for me. :-D
[23:44]  * hggdh does not do Linux-from-scratch for quite a long time
[23:44] <bcurtiswx> hggdh: why doesn't a bugmaster make a script that goes through the bugs on old versions and asks the users to test on newer versions and sets them as incomplete until the reporter responds?
[23:45] <hggdh> bcurtiswx: usually this ends up as an email storm to those subscribed (or for subcribed teams), so it is not well seen. I think nowadays there is a way of updating a bug without spamming, but I am not sure
[23:45] <jander99> because then I wouldn't have anything to do to learn bug triaging! lol j/k.  that would be a good use of automation.
[23:46] <jander99> Could the email generated be sent only to the reporter, not to the other subscribers?
[23:46] <hggdh> well, there is also this aspect. Let's look, at least right now, at old bugs as a training ground
[23:47] <hggdh> jander99: this is what I am not sure if can be controlled. An email is usually sent to *all* subscribers. I think the new API might allow, but I have not looked at it. Yet.
[23:47] <jander99> you could file a bug...
[23:47]  * hggdh obviously has some idle time right now...
[23:48] <micahg> jander99, also, sometimes the original poster will abandon the bug and someone else will have the same problem still and be subscribe
[23:48] <hggdh> it is probably already filed. You can search for it...
[23:48] <micahg> just the reporter isn't always a good solution
[23:48] <hggdh> micahg: good point
[23:48] <micahg> direct subscribers maybe
[23:48] <micahg> but then you get duplicate subscribers as well
[23:49] <micahg> bdmurray has stated that it's better to triage the bugs coming in than clean up past bugs
[23:49] <micahg> if I remember correctly
[23:50] <bcurtiswx> micahg: you are right, because older bugs will eventually get dupes that are fixed as newer bugs.. and theoretically it will help with the older bugs
[23:50] <hggdh> as a generic rule, yes. But, still, the old bugs need to be looked at. And I appreciate jander99 efforts there
[23:50] <jander99> micahg: It would be only logical to focus on bugs less than, say 1 year old, since most people do end up upgrading.  But that doesn't mean the cruft in Launchpad will get any smaller.
[23:50] <hggdh> keep in mind that a new bug will became old in just half a year...
[23:51] <jander99> Hey look, one of the bugs I've marked today have already been labelled fixed.
[23:51] <hggdh> and -- given the lack of volunteers for triaging, *then* it is important to zero in new issues
[23:51] <bcurtiswx> if i haven't said it yet...
[23:52] <hggdh> say it!
[23:52] <bcurtiswx> jander99, work on old bugs is SOOO GREAT!!!! so sorry if i make it seem like its not.
[23:52] <hggdh> jander99: there you go, one less bug in the face of the earth, er, launchpad
[23:54] <jander99> I'm not saying the old ones don't count. I know they do.  Just...less so than newer ones people are facing right now.  So at least bringing some of these dusty ones up to the surface, others will be able to take action on them and get them appropriately fixed.  Just glad I can help in some capacity.
[23:54] <micahg> I'm not trying to discourage any efforts, but the hugdays can help clean out old cruft
[23:54] <micahg> If we can get people to adopt a package or 2 and make sure the new stuff coming in is taken care of fairly quickly, I think we might be better off
[23:54] <micahg> I'm trying to triage the firefox bugs and I can't keep up by myself
[23:55] <micahg> I'm can almost keep the number of new bugs from increasing but it's close
[23:55] <micahg> a lot of times the older issue might already have been fixed upstream or at least reported upstream
[23:55] <jander99> 3.5 was horrid installing from -proposed
[23:56] <micahg> that's why we have proposed :)
[23:56] <jander99> oh, its in -updates and -security
[23:56] <micahg> hopefully they fixed it for the final install
[23:56] <micahg> yeah
[23:56] <hggdh> micahg: I remember discussing hug days for old bugs, and we reached a consensus that they are better used on recent bugs
[23:56] <micahg> true
[23:57] <micahg> but older bugs can end up on hte list like they did for synaptic yesterday
[23:57] <bcurtiswx> with the fact that ubuntu wants to make empathy default.. im thinking of adopting that package
[23:57] <hggdh> yes indeed, so each hug day helps clean up old cruft
[23:57] <micahg> exactly
[23:57] <micahg> and if the rest of the time, we can keep the number of new bugs at bay, we can make a dent
[23:58] <hggdh> bcurtiswx: if you use it, you can help drive the fixes (and improvements) it needs
[23:58] <bcurtiswx> and I do
[23:58] <Laibsch> Hi, is Scott Remnant around?
[23:58]  * hggdh tried, but could not get used *not* having IRC commands
[23:58] <micahg> I use Firefox all day, that's why I chose it
[23:58] <micahg> if everyone can choose something they are comfortable with, I think we can really make a difference
[23:58] <hggdh> +1
[23:59] <micahg> the other problem I have is responding to old stuff while keeping up with the new stuff
[23:59] <yofel> what's the policy on bugs like bug 400573 ? That's not a packaging request but a request to include a package on the live cd
[23:59] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 400573 in ubuntu "[needs packaging]wvdial (1.60.1+nmu2)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/400573