[06:57] <ara> good morning all :)
[09:59] <mac_v> MacSlow: mpt: kwwii: https://launchpad.net/bugs/387626 , "wireless notification icon is wrong signal strength" not sure if notify-osd is causing this... maybe this just needs a better icon?
[10:02] <MacSlow> mac_v, that's certainly an issue of the apps using the notification system
[10:04] <MacSlow> mac_v, btw... since this is on UNR, which I never worked on directly myself... I can not even do a wild guess which app might be mixing up icons there
[10:05] <MacSlow> could be a icon-theme issue
[10:05] <mac_v> MacSlow: This is the same behaviour in laptops too... i dont think previously wireless connection showed signal strength in notifications[as far as i can remember], any particular reason why those icons were created?
[10:06] <MacSlow> the icon "encodes" the signal-reception strength at connection-establishment-time
[10:06] <MacSlow> that's how they are meant to be used
[10:07] <MacSlow> there are different icon-sets within the Human icon-time for different types of wireless networks
[10:07] <SiDi> mac_v: maybe NetworkManager is meant to use the appropriate icons and doesnt
[10:07] <MacSlow> that would be my guess too
[10:07] <SiDi> sounds obvious now, didnt tell you the other day cause my brain was under a disk check
[10:07] <mac_v> i understand that , but that functionality doesnt exist as of now in nm
[10:08] <SiDi> report it as a bug, set the milestone to karmic, and we'll see :) 
[10:08] <mac_v> kwwii: so maybe a new icon?
[10:08] <SiDi> i think they have the time to do it, it's an easy fix imo
[10:08] <SiDi> mac_v: there are ~12 wireless icons, why a new icon ? :|
[10:09] <mac_v> ;p , its just fun making them ;p
[10:09] <SiDi> either nm codes the thing as it's meant to, and everyone is happy and there are fluffy kittens and bunnies dancing together in the meadow, or there is a bug
[10:10] <SiDi> mac_v: let me know when you retargeted 387626 to network manager please :p
[10:14] <mpt> mmmmm, delicious kittens
[10:14] <mac_v> SiDi: done, i just have to search if there are any upstream bugs, but i guess this only affects ubuntu 
[10:15] <mac_v> mpt: speaking of delicious kittens > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E
[10:21] <SiDi> mac_v: yes of course its an ubuntu-only bug
[10:24] <SiDi> mac_v: nice vid
[10:24] <mac_v> !!! i added the nomination for network manager and notify-osd also got nominated !
[10:25] <mac_v> SiDi: i thought you like cats , didnt realize this is how you prefered them ;p
[10:26] <SiDi> mac_v: i'm gonna let my cat know about your petting habbits, she'll raise an army and take care of cooking yourself to your own convenience
[10:27] <mac_v> SiDi: that video reminds me of kwwii's blog about veg guests 
[10:29] <mac_v> mpt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UpdateIssues#Hassle-Free%20In-Session%20Updates , your thoughts?
[10:31] <kwwii> man, someone actually reads my blog? amazing
[10:32] <mac_v> kwwii: ;p dont get too exited ... just that one  , since i have veg relatives
[10:32] <mpt> mac_v, did you write this? This is nice work
[10:32] <mac_v> mpt: yeah.. oh i forgot to sign it
[10:33] <kwwii> ;)
[10:33] <mpt> mac_v, I have a mockup quite like <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UpdateIssues?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UM-SS.png> sitting on my desk waiting for me to finish :-)
[10:33] <mac_v> thanx
[10:33] <SiDi> kwwii: indeed :p
[10:33] <mpt> except mine has a scrawled note "missing total size for download"
[10:34] <SiDi> (i read the planet actually)
[10:35] <mac_v> :) 
[10:36] <mpt> mac_v, the total size on your mockups needs a better place too, it looks a bit lost
[10:36] <mpt> Maybe as the first sentence of the secondary text
[10:37] <mpt> "31 MB will need to be downloaded. If you don't want to install the updates now, ..."
[10:37] <mpt> which could then sometimes be "The updates have already been downloaded. If you don't want to install them now, ..."
[10:37] <mac_v> mpt: surely , it can use some of the UX teams touch and polish , 
[10:38] <mac_v> mpt: but we have to be careful not to use too many words
[10:39] <mpt> sure, there's a balance between minimizing words and minimizing visual elements
[10:41] <mac_v> also offering the user to *not* install , should be also minimized 
[10:41] <mpt> mac_v, sorry, not sure what you mean
[10:42] <mpt> Do you mean downplaying the option to not install updates?
[10:42] <mac_v> mpt: when we keep presenting with: " If you don't want to install the updates now..." it is offering a choice not to
[10:42] <MacSlow> uff -> http://macslow.net/clips/notify-osd-with-all-new-rendering.ogv
[10:42] <mpt> true
[10:43] <mac_v> we need to not offer such choices, rather "Is can also be installed later from" is not ideal
[10:43] <mac_v> it is^
[10:43] <mac_v>  rather "It is can also be installed later from" is ideal!
[10:44] <mpt> MacSlow, nice work
[10:45] <SiDi> MacSlow: will you work on blur only around the mouse region now ? :P
[10:45] <mpt> mac_v, I don't understand either of those :-/
[10:45] <MacSlow> mpt, the blur-cache has been the nastiest thing sofar in notify-osd to do (especially considering the code-refactoring needed)
[10:45] <mac_v> mpt: just a sec...
[10:46]  * MacSlow looks for a sharp, hard and pointy object to throw at SiDi 
[10:46] <SiDi> a kitten ?
[10:47] <SiDi> MacSlow: anyway, congratulations :)
[10:47] <mpt> mac_v, neither "Is can" and "It is can" are not phrases that happen in English. My best guess is "It can" for both, but you're trying to distinguish between the two, so...
[10:47] <SiDi> It is can ? :/
[10:48]  * mpt mangles his own first sentence
[10:49] <mac_v> mpt: i was in the midst of something... so messed up the line... i'll explain in a sec
[10:50] <MacSlow> SiDi, since when are kitten hard, sharp or pointy?
[10:50] <MacSlow> kittens are living fur-balls
[10:51] <SiDi> MacSlow: when they're angry, their claws can be sharp and pointy ! 
[10:51] <MacSlow> SiDi, but overall they are all fuzzy and soft
[10:52] <SiDi> i dont mind, i like kittens :P
[10:52] <kallepersson> MacSlow: very, very nice.
[10:53] <mac_v> mpt: when you are offering something and you want it to be chosen, the other options also needs to reinforce the choice you want the user to choose. here for example , you want the user to install, so all options need to positive reinforce only the "Install" , so the words should not say "if you dont want to install" 
[10:53] <MacSlow> kallepersson, hey there... thanks
[10:53] <mpt> mac_v, ah, so you mean "If you want to install them later" would be better than "If you don't want to install them now"
[10:53] <mac_v> mpt: rather "You can install later" is the ideal choice of words
[10:53] <mac_v> yeah
[10:53] <mpt> fair enough
[10:55] <mpt> The problem then becomes, how do you say "If you want to install them later, choose 'Update Manager' ... no, not now, silly, do that when you actually want to install them"
[10:55] <mpt> The current text does that with "later" at the end of the sentence, but if we said "If you want to install them later", we'd be using the word "later" twice in the same short sentence.
[10:56] <mac_v> mpt: thats why i had worded it "You can also install them later"
[10:56] <mpt> ahhhhh
[10:56] <mpt> "You can also install them later by choosing ..."
[10:56] <mpt> neat
[10:56] <mac_v> yeah
[10:57]  * mpt tries to think of a shorter synonym for "Alternatively"
[10:57] <mpt> "Or" is shorter, but is weird as the first word of a paragraph
[11:03] <mac_v> or/instead are negative words , Alternatively is positive 
[11:04] <mac_v> mpt: "You can also choose to install them later, by selecting..."
[11:05] <SiDi> Otherwise is slightly shorter
[11:05] <mac_v> SiDi: otherwise is also negative
[11:05] <SiDi> mac_v: you're negativ
[11:05] <mac_v> ;p
[12:10]  * MacSlow -> lunch
[13:36] <hyperair> does anyone here use a dual head display?
[13:36] <hyperair> notify-osd's notifications disappeared =\
[13:36] <hyperair> something about not being able to find a panel
[15:03] <hyperair> for some reason, gdk_window_get_type_hint (win) where win is the panel returns GDK_WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_NORMAL rather than GDK_WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_DOCK. commenting out that line seems to make notify-osd detect my panel correctly again.
[15:03]  * hyperair scratches his head
[15:47] <hyperair> MacSlow: ping
[15:49] <MacSlow> hyperair, sorry not time atm... still busy with release-work
[15:51] <hyperair> MacSlow: okay, i'll ping another time
[19:31] <tedg> I'm really disliking the Liferea notification messages.  They're basically "<title> has <number> new / updated titles".
[19:31] <tedg> I'm thinking something like "<title> has <number> updates" should be enough.
[21:22] <mrooney> tedg: sounds like a paper cut :)
[21:23] <tedg> mrooney: Heh.  Yeah.  I changed the text to be just "updates" not sure if I like it not yet...
[21:24] <tedg> Change is in my PPA (though not built yet) for those that want to try it: https://launchpad.net/~ted/+archive/ppa
[22:23] <djsiegel> bratsche you there?
[22:24] <bratsche> djsiegel, I am.
[22:24] <djsiegel> bratsche can a gtk slider (what is the widget name) start at 1, then go to 5, 10, 15, etc?
[22:24] <bratsche> Yeah.
[22:24] <djsiegel> ok, cool
[22:24] <djsiegel> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/59589
[22:24] <bratsche> GtkAdjustment's step_increment I think.
[22:25] <djsiegel> but you can have [1, 5, 10...]
[22:25] <djsiegel> I know you can change the increment
[22:25] <djsiegel> but I wasn't sure if you could slip an increment of 4 in there...
[22:25] <bratsche> Oh wait, I missed the "start at 1" part and then go 5,10,15..
[22:25] <djsiegel> yes
[22:25] <djsiegel> that's the question
[22:26] <bratsche> I'm not sure about that.
[22:26] <djsiegel> I bet you could special case the 0 case
[22:26] <bratsche> Yeah.
[22:26] <djsiegel> (value == 0 ? 1 : value)
[22:26] <djsiegel> or (value ? value : 1) in C I guess
[22:27] <djsiegel> hehe
[22:27] <bratsche> But don't actually set the adjustment's value to 1, or then when you increment it'll go to 6.  Just watch its value_changed event or whatever and do the correct thing on 0.
[22:31] <bratsche> djsiegel, The <alt> thing would still display underlines for menuitems once a menu is already popped up right?  You shouldn't need to hold alt for that should you?
[22:33] <djsiegel> bratsche: I think it's more reasonable to keep _ in menus
[22:34] <djsiegel> but I think we could make the case for getting rid of those, too
[22:34] <djsiegel> I am not sure how they are used, 1 sec
[22:34] <djsiegel> yes, I see
[22:34] <bratsche> djsiegel, Well, once a menu is popped up you don't need to hit <alt> for those accelerators to work.
[22:34] <djsiegel> bratsche, yes, it makes sense to leave them if they don't require alt
[22:34] <djsiegel> but they are such a blemish on buttons, less so in menus
[22:35] <bratsche> Oh I see.
[22:35] <bratsche> Yeah.
[22:36] <ryanprior> I'm not sure what you're talking about precisely, but I've got a menu suggestion
[22:36] <djsiegel> ryanprior: let's hear it
[22:37] <ryanprior> right now we see lots of menu items like "Open <Ctrl+O>"
[22:37] <ryanprior> I think it would be neat it if said Open, then had a right-justified lozenge showing "ctrl" and an O key
[22:37] <ryanprior> readably, but graphically
[22:38] <ryanprior> I don't know whether that's easy to do with GTK
[22:38] <ryanprior> but if it's not too hard to put icons inside a menu item, it would be a neat touch
[22:38] <bratsche> It sounds like it would require more space allocated to the menuitems.
[22:39] <bratsche> But maybe not.
[22:39] <ryanprior> The little icons wouldn't have to be any bigger than an X-height
[22:39] <bratsche> They have to be two pixels higher than 'C'
[22:39] <bratsche> Or 'l'
[22:39] <bratsche> Not sure which is taller.
[22:40] <ryanprior> I always thought X was tallest
[22:40] <bratsche> But is the lozenge going around the full text or just "Ctrl"?
[22:40] <ryanprior> I'll whip up a mock-up
[22:40] <bratsche> Cool, thanks.
[22:52] <ryanprior> http://ryanprior.com/menu-mockup.png
[22:54] <bratsche> Hmm, nice.
[22:54]  * bratsche takes a peek at some code
[22:55] <bratsche> ryanprior, we could maybe style that up in the theme engine without modifying any code.
[22:55] <bratsche> Or at least, without modifying any code in gtk+ itself.
[22:56] <ryanprior> I like non-intrusive edits ;-)
[22:57]  * SiDi doesnt think it's so hard to do in gtk itself, so maybe some changes in libgtk could do it :/
[22:57] <SiDi> like, i think at the moment it builds a hbox with your content, extended, on the left, and a label, the Ctrl+Foo, on the right
[22:58] <SiDi> we could change the label to some gtk-accel-Foo stock image (of course it requires to add those images to the stock gtk ones :p)
[22:58] <SiDi> or auto-generate them (but thats slower :/)
[22:58] <bratsche> No need to change libgtk itself probably, just style the GtkLabel.
[22:59] <bratsche> SiDi, probably just render with Cairo.
[22:59] <ryanprior> Yeah, it would be coolest if you could do it with styles and not generate an image at all
[22:59] <SiDi> ah, yeh.. :P
[22:59] <bratsche> Because you want the colors to be stylable too, and if you ship images then you're stuck.
[22:59] <SiDi> yeh thats true
[22:59]  * SiDi goes back to bed xD
[23:00] <bratsche> And images increase the size of the installer ISO, and it doesn't have much space to devote to this sort of thing.
[23:01] <bratsche> kwwii, around still?
[23:02] <bratsche> Probably not.. pretty late there.
[23:03] <SiDi> midnight, bratsche :)
[23:21] <kwwii> bratsche: yepp
[23:21] <bratsche> Oh hey dude
[23:21] <kwwii> hey man
[23:22] <bratsche> kwwii: Check out ryanprior's mockup.. http://ryanprior.com/menu-mockup.png
[23:22] <kwwii> with a bit of visual magic that could be cool
[23:22] <kwwii> pretty simple now
[23:22] <bratsche> kwwii: What theme engine are we using right now?  If I have time I wouldn't mind trying to hack this up sometime.
[23:22] <kwwii> but better than a lot of other stuff I have recently seen
[23:23] <kwwii> murrine
[23:23] <kwwii> but I get the feeling that the new theme will be something completely different
[23:23] <bratsche> kwwii: Do we have a standard place we can start collecting different theming ideas?
[23:23] <kwwii> it has taken to long to get this far, we will probably change quite a bit, which will mean writing our own theme enginge
[23:24] <kwwii> engine
[23:24] <kwwii> if you ask me, that is
[23:24] <bratsche> Yeah, I think writing our own engine would make a lot of sense once we know exactly what we want to do.
[23:24] <kwwii> the http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming is the place for collecting that kind of stuff
[23:25] <kwwii> but if we want to push for it, we could expand that
[23:25] <kwwii> I am trying to think of a way to invite all of the wallpaper submitters on the flickr page to other projects
[23:25] <kwwii> I have now publicly admitted that I know nothing of flickr yet I pay them money :p
[23:26] <kwwii> bratsche: doing this unr work has been interesting
[23:26] <kwwii> there is a need for a theme which is really flexible and themeable to the nth degree
[23:27] <kwwii> ie presenting a buttload of drawing options 
[23:27] <bratsche> kwwii: Have you played around with the css theme engine for gtk much?  Do you think it's pretty flexible?  I'm interested in trying to integrate it directly into gtk3.0 (and totally replace gtkrc stuff with it) if there is time.
[23:28] <bratsche> But that's going to be a lot of work, and it's beginning to seem like there is not a lot of time for this kind of work.
[23:29] <ryanprior> I really like the idea of the CSS theme engine.
[23:29] <ryanprior> I'm working on one for Ecere.
[23:30] <bratsche> It's not very useful in its current form, because it blows away gtkrc settings and it prevents us from doing another theme engine on top of it (which might do animation stuff possibly)
[23:30] <bratsche> So for CSS to be useful we really need to replace gtkrc with it.
[23:30] <kwwii> bratsche: well, I know it needs a lot of work ;) It really is the best idea out there but you would have to decide for yourself how much work it would be to get it to do what it is supposed to do. I know they would love the help, but including it would be much less work than getting it to do what it should
[23:31] <kwwii> well, the current stuff imports the CSS and makes gtkrc out of it, afaik
[23:32] <bratsche> Well, internally yeah..
[23:32] <kwwii> I know that intel would love it if you helped :p
[23:32] <bratsche> But your gtkrc is what tells gtk to load that engine.  And basically whatever else is in your gtkrc might get blown away by stuff in the CSS files.
[23:33] <bratsche> kwwii, need to convince David and Mark that it's worth investing time in.
[23:33] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt
[23:33] <SiDi> bratsche: that'd be a CSS3 engine, then ? :)
[23:33] <bratsche> Uh, hell if I know.
[23:34] <bratsche> I don't know the difference between different versions of css.
[23:34] <kwwii> I wonder what upper management will say about working on a project which Intel has essentially paid for until now and still keeps behind closed hands
[23:34] <bratsche> kwwii, do they?
[23:34] <bratsche> Rob wrote the gtk css engine before he went to work for Intel.
[23:35] <bratsche> I'm not really sure what the relationship is between the gtk css engine and the css fu that he's done for nbtk or whatever it's called.
[23:35] <kwwii> dude, I could explain the situation but then I would lose my job
[23:35] <bratsche> eek
[23:35] <kwwii> this is an open irc channel, my friend
[23:37] <bratsche> I have to finish morphing window stuff soon anyway, and I'm just beginning it.  Maybe once that's done I can think about this kind of stuff more.