/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/07/21/#ubuntu-desktop.txt

seb128have text entries allow to middle click in the one you want00:00
seb128it's visually easy and really quick since you don't need the keyboard00:00
rickspencer3_robert_ancell: good morning00:00
seb128yeah, I expect that's not a standard usecase ;-)00:00
robert_ancellrickspencer3_, hi rick00:00
seb128the quest for a non buggy and efficient webbrowser is not an easy one ;-)00:01
rickspencer3_seb128: lynx?00:01
seb128rickspencer3_, do I look like one of those mutt users? ;-)00:03
rickspencer3_lol00:03
seb128I'm getting used to firefox in fact after a week00:03
asac_seb128: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/making-your-own-firefox-search-plugins-other-tips/00:03
seb128I just miss the quick bookmark entries00:03
asac_seb128: for most sites you can add existing searchplugins: http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html00:04
=== asac_ is now known as asac
asacthere are zillions sites prepared there00:04
seb128that's the most efficient thing you can get in a webbrowser ;-)00:04
seb128asac, ok thanks00:04
seb128that one extra click compared to a bar of entries but that might be good enough ;-)00:06
asacseb128: ah you want search fields directly added to bookmark toolbar00:07
asacmost likely there is an extension available too00:07
seb128right00:07
seb128have you ever used galeon? I think they do that by default ;-)00:08
seb128ie I've usually 7-8 of those00:08
seb128bugs numbers for launchpad, gnome, fd.o, list of bugs for those and some extra ones00:08
seb128so I just have to select a bug number and middle click it in the right entry00:09
seb128I might get used to the firefox way, I keep mixing my keywords right now though ;-)00:09
asacyes, thats why i remembered that now - because i had this in galeon; i think i actually used it in ephy too00:09
seb128time to go to bed, 'night00:15
bcurtiswxhey all, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-sounds/+bug/400485 i think is fairly important is were making empathy default... but its my own bug.. i don't want to appear biased :-/... thoughts?00:24
ubottuUbuntu bug 400485 in ubuntu-sounds "Empathy sounds not in default ubuntu theme" [Undecided,Confirmed]00:24
pittiGood morning06:27
TheMusoMorning pitti.06:45
=== tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter
=== al-maisan_ is now known as al-maisan
didrocksgood morning pitti08:16
seb128good morning there08:20
pittihey didrocks, hey seb12808:20
* pitti continues the CD size war08:21
seb128hello pitti08:21
pittiI dropped some packages yesterday, and today's amd64 daily grew by 2 MB08:21
seb128pitti, gtk fix confirmed to work on amd64?08:21
pittiseb128: yep, works fine here; thanks08:21
seb128good08:21
didrockslut seb12808:25
seb128'lu didrocks08:25
didrocksgood luck pitti with alpha3 :)08:25
pittithanks didrocks08:26
pittiwe need to downsize pidgin08:30
seb128didrocks, did you need some other reviewing for your gir update?08:31
pittiseb128: do you know about the chance to use webkit or xul in evolution, instead of gtkhtml?08:31
seb128pitti, what is the issue with pidgin it didn't change recently08:32
pittiseb128: telepathy depends libpurple depends pidgin-data08:32
seb128pitti, webkit for evolution no chance this cycle, they work toward rendering using it but not editing yet08:32
pittiok :/08:33
seb128pitti, well that's nothing new, should not explain the difference since yesterday08:33
pittiseb128: no, not for this differnce (that was mainly bzr, man-db, and a few bits)08:33
pittiI threw out bzr from amd64/alternate ship08:33
pittiand now rebuild perl against db 4.7 (another .5 MB)08:33
slomoseb128: you had a patch for glib 2.21 that used /usr/share/gnome/applications hardcoded instead of the user data directory... since which gnome-session version is this patch unnecessary?08:34
slomoseb128: also you'll probably see some bugreports on gstreamer packages that seeking is broken since 0.10.23.2/.3, this will be fixed soon (and of course before 0.10.24)08:35
mac_vseb128: hi... have the problems with ubuntu-client been fixed? had it uninstalled since it kept crashing nautilus08:35
mac_vubuntuone that is^08:35
seb128slomo, hum, let me look, not sure what patch you refer to08:36
seb128mac_v, should be since yesterday yes08:36
mac_voh.. ok thanx08:36
seb128slomo, we didn't have any ubuntu specific change in karmic that I can tell08:37
slomoseb128: oh, i've misread the diff... 02_usr_share_gnome_applications.patch and it's usage was dropped in debian. so you can drop it for ubuntu too ;)08:37
seb128slomo, right, that one was coming from Debian, thanks08:38
seb128slomo, updating to 2.21 in debian?08:38
slomoyes08:38
seb128slomo, thanks for the gstreamer warning, should we track experimental pre-versions? ;-)08:38
slomoyes, track them if there are still a few weeks for updating to the releases ;)08:39
slomoseb128: and you probably want to get libgdata from pkg-gnome svn to enable the youtube plugin in totem again08:40
seb128slomo, ah thanks, waiting in NEW for debian?08:40
slomoyes, it was rejected last time because there were unversioned files in the library package *sigh* :)08:41
slomosvn has libgdata 0.4.0, this is the version you'll need for totem 2.27.2 (which will be released in the next days)08:41
seb128ok good08:41
slomoand you need the gstreamer pre-releases for totem 2.27.2 anyways08:42
seb128slomo, anything exciting in the new totem?08:43
seb128still better dvd playing I guess? ;-)08:43
tjaaltonasac: re xserver 1.7; iirc it hasn't been branched yet, nor is master abi stable yet08:43
slomoseb128: yes, and many bugfixes and totem now tries to mount gio locations if they're not mounted yet08:44
seb128slomo, ah good!08:44
slomobut you still can't play your non-ac3 dvds unfortunately :) did you try the patch in bugzilla already?08:45
seb128slomo, oh, forgot about this one, I was travelling what you added the comment, will do that this week08:47
slomoseb128: ok, that will show us at least if that's the reason for your problem (the patch is far from perfect yet)08:48
seb128slomo, I need to try DVD playing in karmic, the 2.26 totem was very buggy for that, lot of users complaining about permission issues08:48
pittinautilus-sendto | 1.1.5-0ubuntu1 |        karmic | source, amd64, i38608:48
seb128which could also be due to libdvdcss or libdvdread but totem doesn't make that clear08:48
pittinautilus-sendto-universe | 1.1.2-0ubuntu3 | karmic/universe | source, amd64, i38608:48
pittiany idea what the latter package is good for?08:48
seb128pitti, to build options for things which are not in main08:49
seb128pitti, the empathy one should be moved to the main version now but there is still upnp08:49
seb128pitti, the main reason was to have the empathy option available somewhere in jaunty08:49
pittiI was going to do a no-chagne rebuild to NBS out the old libempathy libs08:50
pittiah, ok08:50
seb128pitti, any hurry to clean that? I can do the changes a bit later if you want (busy on some other things right now)08:52
pittijust doing some NBS cleanup08:53
seb128pitti, feel free to do a no change rebuild for now if you want to clean that quickly08:54
pitti(already done)08:54
didrocksseb128: I didn't have the time yesterday and surely not this evening to update clutter. I think I will do it on Thursday (gobject-introspection has been uploaded). Let's first fix some "quickly" bugs and distutils-extra merge proposal :)08:54
seb128didrocks, ok, no hurry, thanks08:54
slomoseb128: other than that, are you aware of any other new gstreamer/totem bugs that are reported often? :)08:55
pittiseb128: my main concern is http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/karmic_probs.html right now, so I spotted it08:55
seb128slomo, recent issues or just bugs which annoy users over cycles?08:56
slomoseb128: both08:56
seb128slomo, one of the annoying thing is that the gio totem doesn't ask for login password when trying to play an online ogg on a protected website08:57
seb128not sure that's a common usecase but it's annoying some people there since we have some of those on canonical websites08:57
seb128otherwise the most frequent complain in jaunty is DVD playing raising permission errors08:58
slomothat's what i've fixed for 2.27.2, at least if the gio plugin is used... if the soup plugin is used that's still a problem08:58
seb128is the gio plugin ranked higher?08:58
slomonope :) and it shouldn't because gio's http support is very minimalistic... hm, i might take a look at fixing this with the soup plugin too in the next days09:00
seb128would be nice ;-)09:00
seb128otherwise out of DVD playing which should already be better in karmic no real common complain09:00
slomook :)09:01
seb128lot of "no sound" issues often due to pulseaudio but totem doesn't make clear what's going on09:01
seb128not sure it could though09:01
seb128and one complain which comes every now and then is that buffering seem to suck09:01
seb128at least in the webbrowser player09:01
seb128ie bug #10862309:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 108623 in totem "totem isn't buffering correctly" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/10862309:02
slomothat should be better now too09:02
seb128ok09:03
slomoseb128: is there an upstream bug for the http authentication stuff?09:09
seb128slomo, gnome bug #55670809:10
ubottuGnome bug 556708 in general "totem does not prompt for authentication on network locations" [Normal,New] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55670809:11
slomothanks09:11
asactjaalton: so we might not get Xserver 1.7 for release? or just later?09:16
seb128pitti, any objection to me uploading notify-osd new version in karmic now?09:32
pittiseb128: no, if you test it and it works, go ahead09:33
seb128pitti, ok thanks09:33
pittigeneral attitude is "upload with care and don't break anything" (library transitions, etc.)09:33
pittinot "don't uplaod anything"09:33
araseb128, are you referring to the tar.gz that MacSlow announced yesterday?09:42
seb128ara, yes, why?09:42
araseb128, is there a PPA already? (I would love to test it)09:42
seb128ara, dunno, that would be a question for MacSlow, I'm about to do a karmic proper upload09:43
araseb128, excellent, thanks :)09:43
cassidyhey guys. What's https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/desktop-data-model/1.2.5-2build1 ?09:44
seb128cassidy, apt-cache show libddm-1-009:47
seb128"Description: Desktop Data Model library09:47
seb128 Desktop Data Model (DDM) is a library used by the Mugshot client and all09:47
seb128 Online-Desktop programs."09:47
seb128cassidy, ^09:47
cassidyI didn't know they were using empathy09:48
pitticassidy: apparently they do; I uploaded a rebuild against the current soname09:48
pitti(beyond that, I have no clue whatsoever what ddm is)09:48
loolseb128: Wow the no change reupload of gtk did fix things??09:52
pittilool: just as mysteriously as it got broken in the first place :)09:52
loolI don't like that but well09:52
* lool kills his gtk+ build09:52
seb128lool, yes09:53
seb128lool, I don't like it either but that would take a day of debugging and I've other things I prefer to do ;-)09:54
seb128MacSlow, notify-osd 0.9.15 uploaded to karmic09:58
araMacSlow, are durations working with this release?09:59
pittiok, release engineering bits done for now, /me looks at the gnome-keyring ssh breakage09:59
seb128pitti, I don't get the issue there on current karmic for what is worth10:01
pittihm10:01
pittithe daemon works, but my session doesn't have $SSH_AUTH_SOCK10:01
pittiI'm going to reinstall my box with current karmic daily today anyway10:01
pittiso perhaps it's just some local cruft10:01
pitti/etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus_dbus-launch seems to trigger now10:03
pittimartin    3859  0.0  0.0  26156   516 ?        S    Jul20   0:00 dbus-launch --exit-with-session gnome-session10:03
pittibut gnome-keyring doesn't use any Xsession.d scripts10:04
pittiseb128: do you know how my session is supposed to get the $SSH_AUTH_SOCK variable?10:04
seb128pitti, over dbus, there is an api to export environment10:04
seb128pitti, but you are right, gnome-session doesn't have it set10:05
seb128strings /proc/$(pidof gnome-session)/environ | grep SSH10:05
seb128nothing10:05
seb128gnome-panel does though10:05
seb128and I start my g-t from a launcher10:05
seb128which explains why it works there10:05
seb128pitti, downgrading to gnome-session 2.26.1 makes no difference10:11
seb128pitti, I would tend to blame dbus there10:11
pittiah, I start it from a ~/gsession script10:16
pittistrings /proc/$(pidof gnome-panel)/environ|grep SSH -> nothing10:16
mat_tseb128: pitti: morning!10:16
pittihey mat_t10:16
mat_tpitti: fyi https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Design started putting that together yesterday10:17
seb128pitti, weird10:17
seb128$ strings /proc/$(pidof gnome-panel)/environ|grep SSH10:17
seb128SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/keyring-cwnYZr/socket.ssh10:17
seb128hey mat_t10:17
mat_they seb10:17
pittimat_t: I saw, looks great!10:17
mat_tcool!10:18
didrockspitti: when you have some time, if you can review and merge my branch for disutils-extra (https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~didrocks/python-distutils-extra/update_control_file/+merge/9090). Other changes you made works perfectly. Thanks a lot :)10:19
MacSlowara, no10:19
MacSlowseb128, thanks10:19
mat_tpitti: seb128: I'll be adding more stuff today, will keep you updated10:19
MacSlowseb128, any issues with building the .deb for 0.9.15?10:19
seb128MacSlow, no, it went just fine10:20
seb128MacSlow, you have almost 80 bugs though, time for some triage maybe there? ;-)10:20
MacSlowara, the blur- and surface-cache work which went into 0.9.15 was a needed preparing-step for the durations10:20
seb128mat_t, ok thanks10:20
araMacSlow, OK, thanks :)10:20
MacSlowseb128, no need to remind me about that10:20
mat_tara, MacSlow: hi10:21
pittiseb128: I downgrade d-bus, and check where the regression is, and file a bug10:21
arahey mat_t ;-)10:21
mat_t:)10:21
MacSlowseb128, dx is making sure my todo-list if filled10:21
seb128pitti, good luck, let me know10:21
MacSlowseb128, but some bugs will be "implicitly" fixed by the coming (feature) work10:22
seb128MacSlow, well there is a crasher with some 7-8 duplicates10:22
seb128could be worth looking at it10:22
MacSlowseb128, ara: with 0.9.15 there is on "major" regression though... the over- and undershoot-effects for feedback/sync. bubbles (e.g. volume, brightness) are not working10:23
seb128indeed, I can confirm that10:23
MacSlowmat_t, hi there10:27
seb128ok, I'm away to buy food and some other things, bbl10:28
asacmvo_: any chance we get a kde enabled apturl backend?10:42
asac;)10:42
asacor is that off the radar for karmic10:42
mvo_asac: its not on my radar, but it should be easy to do, maybe I should just do during the freeze or something10:48
mdzpitti, I see the same as you (no ssh agent in my session since last login)10:50
pittimdz: right, currently trackig that down10:50
pittidowngrading d-bus doesn't help10:50
pittiso that's not it10:50
mdzpitti, ~/.xsession-errors says SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/keyring-uZ6Zb2/socket.ssh10:51
pittimdz: mine too, and starting ssh with SSH_AUTH_SOCK= ... ssh works10:51
pittibut the variable isn't exported10:51
mdzpitti, should I open a bug report about the SSH_AUTH_SOCK issue?11:28
pittimdz: please go ahead; I still don't know which package is to blame yet11:28
pittiI downgraded dbus, gnome-session and gnome-keyring, no success so far11:28
pittiI'm investigating gdm now11:28
vuntzit's not me!11:31
* vuntz is afraid seb128 will blame him ;-)11:31
didrocksvuntz: ahah :-)11:31
tkamppeterpitti, foo2zjs updated.11:40
mdzis anyone else seeing bug 401055?  it's just happened to me again11:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 401055 in firefox-3.5 "Gdk-ERROR **: The program 'firefox-3.5' received an X Window System error (BadWindow)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/40105511:41
mdzGdk-ERROR **: The program 'firefox-3.5' received an X Window System error.11:41
pittitkamppeter: danke!11:42
seb128mdz, can you get a stacktrace for the crash?11:42
mdzseb128, yes, it leaves behind a crash report thanks to apport handling aborts now :-)11:43
mdzseb128, but it's my understanding that usually these are useless without --sync11:43
pittioh, I didn't even implement that yet :)11:43
pittiapport needs to fish the abort message from the coredump11:43
seb128mdz, right, you might want to hack apport to add a --sync option to the call11:43
seb128mdz, you only get the issue when using apport? does using the same command which is listed in the .crash lead to the crash?11:44
mdzpitti, oh, it's SIGTRAP, not SIGABRT in this case11:44
pittiseb128: any chance that we could drop the second mixer applet for alpha-3?11:44
mdzseb128, I have not been able to reproduce it by running firefox manually, even with the same command line11:45
seb128pitti, I'm not decided or what to do there, I can foresee people complaining about not letting it built as an option to use11:45
pittiseb128: so one is the master level, the other is the pulseaudio virtual "software" mixer?11:45
pittiI'm not quite sure what the second is all about11:45
pittiand it uses the vertical slider, just as in intrepid11:46
seb128mdz, I can confirm the crash there11:46
seb128pitti, the notification area icon is the pulse modern upstream way11:46
seb128pitti, the applet is the old deprecated mixer which you can still build using a configure option11:46
pittiseb128: so the vertical slider one is actually the "new" one?11:47
seb128yes11:47
seb128it's not an applet11:47
seb128it's a notification area icon11:47
pittiah11:47
pittiseb128: so perhaps we could ship the applet, but not enable it by default?11:47
seb128pitti, right, but that doesn't fix the upgrade issue11:48
pittiI was already about to document it as a known issue for alpha-3, but then I realized that I don't even know what the bug is, i. e. which one is right11:48
seb128mdz, downgrading libgtk workaround the crash11:48
seb128mdz, I reassign the bug to gtk+ now11:48
pittiseb128: the applet could just hide itself/quit if pulseaudio is running, perhaps?11:48
seb128pitti, we had the same issue for half of jaunty for what is worth so maybe it was documented there11:49
seb128ie have a look to jaunty alpha notes11:49
asacmdz: did you manage to get a backtrace? i think it had something to do with XQueryTree either erroring directly or returning a BadWindow that causes this error later. like in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/widget/src/xremoteclient/XRemoteClient.cpp#47111:49
seb128pitti, I don't like the "have an applet use memory etc for ever after upgrade"11:50
mdzpitti, filed bug 40216111:50
ubottuLaunchpad bug 402161 in gnome-keyring "gnome-keyring-daemon is running, but SSH_AUTH_SOCK is not set in the session environment" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/40216111:50
seb128pitti, ie if it's masked it's still running and you have no way to drop it11:50
pittiseb128: could it disable itself (in gconf) in that case, and just quit?11:51
pittiah, that would make gnome-panel freak out11:51
seb128yes11:51
mdzasac, I have not tried with --sync yet, though it's easy to reproduce so I will try it now11:51
pittiso I guess "disable itself and hide"11:51
seb128you would get the "applet crashed" dialgo11:51
seb128dialog11:51
pittiand the next session wouldn't start it any more11:51
pittimdz: thanks11:51
seb128asac, mdz: doesn't happen with previous gtk so it could be a gtk bug11:52
asacwhen i had that, --sync made it go away unfortunately11:52
asacseb128: its odd. i saw it in the middle of the jaunty cycle11:52
seb128mdz, pitti: I doubt the gnome-keyring-daemon ssh issue is a gnome-keyring one11:52
mdzseb128, I didn't know where else to put it11:52
seb128asac, well, I get it every time and dpkg -i libgtk2.0-0 2.17.2 and it works11:52
pittiseb128: I downgraded gnome-keyring, gnome-session, and dbus, these aren't it11:52
pittiI suspect gdm, investigating right now11:52
seb128pitti, next is gdm?11:52
seb128ok, same though11:52
pittigiven that gdm broke everything else recently, too :)11:52
pittibut before... lunch!11:53
seb128asac, hum, it doesn't crash but it's not happy either11:53
seb128(firefox-3.5:24830): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: IA__g_object_weak_unref: couldn't find weak ref 0xed08a0(0xb2eb2ec0)11:53
seb128with "old" gtk11:54
seb128asac, in fact it crashed on second try so maybe not gtk11:55
asacseb128: i think we see some weird Xid caching bug again11:55
asacfrom what i know gdk maintains their own xid caches and so if you someting directly with X skipping gdk it might cause some troubles11:56
asacseb128: so you still see the BadError with older gtk?11:56
seb128asac, yes but not every time11:56
asacyeah. and --sync fixes it11:56
seb128asac, $ firefox-3.511:59
seb128(firefox-3.5:25746): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: IA__g_object_weak_unref: couldn't find weak ref 0xbe78a0(0xb4ff1ad0)11:59
seb128asac, do you get those warnings too?11:59
asacseb128: oh yeah. i am sure i didnt get them when i had the BadWindow bug last time12:01
mdzasac, I'm unable to get it to crash by substituting a shell script (/usr/lib/.../firefox-3.5 --sync "$@") for gnome-open12:03
mdzI see the same glib warnings as seb12812:03
mdzwithout changing my gtk12:03
asacseb128: do you happen to know what that warning mean? e.g. the weak reffed object is already freed or the object was never weak reffed at all?12:04
mdzrunning gnome-open <url> doesn't crash either12:04
mdzthe only way I can get it to happen is with apport so far12:05
mat_tpitti: some additions to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Design Basically the idea is to go straight to password entry if there's only 1 user account12:05
mat_tpitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Login%20screen%20with%20user%20picker%20and%20one%20user%20account12:05
seb128asac, dunno12:06
* mat_t > food12:07
mdzasac, ok, I have got a crash with --sync by diverting /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1/firefox-3.512:10
mdzasac, filed bug 402165, awaiting retrace12:13
ubottuBug 402165 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/402165 is private12:13
tjaaltonasac: later, I think, unless it's delayed too much12:13
asacmdz: how did you divert firefox-3.5?12:14
mdzasac, mv12:14
mdzperseus:[/usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1] cat firefox-3.512:14
mdz#!/bin/sh12:14
mdzexec /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1/firefox-3.5.real --sync "$@"12:14
asacseems its just hard to reproduce. after trying 20 times it really crashed for me too. great.12:20
asacretrace failed :/12:27
mdzasac, I just noticed that as well :-/12:31
mdzasac, I'm doing a local retrace12:33
asacmdz: you might get better results if you gdb it locally with firefox-3.5-dbg and xulrunner-1.9.1-dbg (and maybe gtk et al)12:33
asacright12:33
mdzthat's what I'm doing12:33
pittire12:34
mdzasac, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.5/+bug/401055/comments/212:36
ubottuUbuntu bug 401055 in firefox-3.5 "Gdk-ERROR **: The program 'firefox-3.5' received an X Window System error (BadWindow)" [Undecided,New]12:36
mdz(stack trace with symbols and --sync)12:37
pittiseb128, mdz: $SSH_B0RK is gdm bug12:43
seb128pitti, iz gdm bog? I'm not surprised, seems to be the gdm month or something ;-)12:44
* pitti sighs12:44
pitti. o O { why exactly did we upgrade? :-) }12:44
mdzpitti, I tried to move it but you got there first12:44
rodrigo_hmm, new gdm doesn't let you select sessions in /usr/share/xsessions, right?12:45
seb128rodrigo_, it does12:45
rodrigo_and it doesn't seem to read .xinitrc/.xsession12:45
pittiworks here12:45
rodrigo_seb128: oh, how?12:45
seb128rodrigo_, click on an user and you get a combo in the bottom bar12:45
pittirodrigo_: as soon as there's more than one, it displays a combobox12:45
rodrigo_ah12:45
* rodrigo_ tries12:45
pittinowadays there's at least GNOME and xterm there12:46
rodrigo_I just added a jhbuild one, but when I right/left click on a user, it just goes to the asking for password steo12:47
rodrigo_no combobox here12:47
rodrigo_ah, on the bottom bar, sorry :)12:47
asacmdz: thanks. thats the code i had in mind.12:47
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch
loolvuntz: I'd love to hear what you think of https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58924113:24
ubottuGnome bug 589241 in Assistive Technology Preferences "Could check a11y gconf key in the autostart .desktop files" [Minor,Unconfirmed]13:24
Keybukseb128: does new-gdm have the same "prefetch" stuff that old-gdm did?13:26
pittihah, gotcha13:27
seb128Keybuk, no13:31
Keybukseb128: does it have any kind of scripts it runs synchronously to set up the user's session?13:34
pittiall of Xsession.d/13:35
pittiand I guess the first phase of autostart desktop files blocks until all are done, and the second phase is started?13:35
=== crevette_ is now known as crevette
Keybukif I put a script in Xsession.d, gdm will wait for that script to finish before moving onto the next one?13:35
pittithey are all sourced in order (they need to)13:36
pittithey shouldn't do anything expensive, if they do, that's a bug13:36
Keybukwell13:36
pittiit's mostly used to build a startup command line13:36
Keybukwould it be ok to run readahead from there? :)13:37
pittiif it helps13:37
Keybukit'd block while it loads in all the blocks that the rest of the desktop is going to load13:37
pittiah, I thought you found an expensive script there and were going to spank us :)13:37
Keybuknope, I'm not going near desktop this cycle ;)13:37
Keybukkarmic is all about getting to X fast13:37
Keybukwhat happens after that is your problem this release ;-)13:38
pittiKeybuk: :)13:38
Keybukbut since I'm fiddling with readahead13:38
pittiKeybuk: so yes, Xsession.d/ is an appropriate place for readahead13:38
Keybukand only have an HDD-based Mini 10 right now13:38
pittibut I think it could do better13:38
KeybukI thought I may as well move bits around and see if I can't speed things up a little13:38
pittisince ideally it would already start readahead when the gdm greeter is done13:38
pittiwhile the user types name/password13:38
pittiin other words, it could become a gdm autostart .desktop file13:39
seb128Keybuk, is the bootspeed much different on that one compared to the ssd you had?13:39
vuntzlool: hrm, not sure what's the best thing to do there13:39
pittiI'm not sure whether gdm's session itself uses some kind of Xsession.d/ script13:39
james_wpitti: how does apport determine that it has shown a problem to the user?13:39
pittijames_w: mtime != atime of the .crash file13:40
james_wI'm getting an "infinite loop" on a kernel problem report13:40
pitti(< in particular)13:40
* asac lunch13:41
pittiyay ssh gnome-keyring13:41
* seb128 back from lunch now13:41
pittithis was driving me nuts13:41
seb128pitti, what was the issue?13:41
pittiI have all my offlineimap etc. through ssh13:42
seb128I'm wondering why it still works for me13:42
pittiseb128: missing OPTIONFILE in /etc/gdm/Xsession13:42
pittiseb128: which caused /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus_dbus-launch not to be called properly13:42
james_wthanks pitti, seems to a kerneloops bug13:42
pittijames_w: ok, thanks13:42
seb128pitti, ah ok13:43
Keybukseb128: of course, HDD is much slower13:43
pittijames_w: that's still not fixed: I ran into that loop months ago :/13:43
Keybukpitti: how would I write one of those?13:43
pittiKeybuk: /usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/readahead.desktop13:43
james_wpitti: I'm rewriting it now13:43
pedro_seb128, bonjour, I'm planning to run an hug day based on Evolution on Thursday and will add some of the evolution-mapi bugs in case someone could reproduce any, that ok to you?13:43
pittiKeybuk: and Exec=/usr/bin/readahead blabla13:43
loolvuntz: me neither; the enable/disable flags seem a bit redundant13:44
pittiKeybuk: just copy e. g. metacity and update it accordingly13:44
Keybukpitti: is that run with auto-login?13:44
loolWith the a11y flag and with the possibility of using the app setting to disable it13:44
pittiKeybuk: ah, good point; it's not13:44
seb128do you need that on autologin?13:44
seb128you don't have a non-busy wait time you can use anyway13:44
seb128reading while gdm is loading or just after shouldn't make a real difference, does it?13:45
pittiKeybuk: well, if you just want to play with it, just use an Xsession.d script for now13:45
Keybukseb128: it makes a big difference on HDD13:45
pittiKeybuk: if that's worth it, I'm fine with patching it into gdm itself, so that it's always run at a convenient time, also with autologin13:45
Keybukon HDD, you really don't want readahead to run alongside anything else13:45
Keybuksince it relies on being able to drive the hard drive head in one direction13:45
seb128Keybuk, well, do you need any readahead if you don't have a stop time to do it?13:45
pittiwhen I moved all the gnome stuff to /etc/readahead/boot, that reduced gnome startup from ~ 30 to ~ 7 seconds13:45
Keybukseb128: that's why I was looking for a point in gdm when it could run readahead and wait for it to finish13:46
Keybukpitti: I'm not getting those kinds of results yet13:46
pittiKeybuk: with autologin I don't think that there's a scriptable place, but it sounds like a trivial patch13:46
seb128pitti, well, your readahead had all the datas for your user no? ie gconf, etc13:46
pittibut Xsession.d/ for autlogin is probably as good as it can get anyway13:47
seb128and that was a profile with datas13:47
pittiseb128: hm, not sure, but I don't think it had /home in there13:47
seb128ie it makes a higher difference13:47
pittioh, hang on, I still have that profile13:48
pitti(until this evening, when I'm going to reinstall)13:48
pittino /home there13:48
pittiI think it's clever enough to filter out /home13:48
seb128weird that you reach a lowing so fast with your slow disk without caching gconf, etc13:48
seb128lowing -> loging13:48
pittiwhcih also explains why startup is still much slower with that than with a true hot cache (then it's like 3 seconds)13:48
Keybuknot really13:49
Keybukreadahead is a kinda "best guess" thing13:49
Keybukit works on paper, but not so well in practice13:49
seb128well by time you have loaded gdm you have read most of what you need13:49
seb128since gdm uses the whole gnome stack included gnome-session, gconf, etc13:49
Keybukexcept you probably haven't13:49
pittibut not nautilus, panel, compiz13:49
seb128everything remaining is mostly user data13:50
Keybukthings may have been loaded, and then flushed back out of the page cache to make way for other things13:50
seb128pitti, those are just a bunch of binaries though, not an hundred of libs13:50
seb128Keybuk, how does readahead make sure that doesn't happen?13:50
Keybukseb128: it can't13:51
Keybukin fact, readahead relies on that *not* happening13:51
Keybukas soon as it does, it becomes a performance penalty rather than improvement13:51
seb128well, why would it happen to gdm but not readahead?13:51
Keybukseb128: it does happen to both13:51
seb128so you best have to do readahead after everything else to make sure nothing else comes and flush things out?13:52
Keybukbefore13:52
seb128well, I was thinking "gdm loads; you do readahead for session and sit on password prompt; then session load"13:52
Keybukright13:53
Keybukbut you also need to make sure it works for autologin too13:53
seb128hum, so an autostart + a Xsession.d script for autologin cases13:54
Keybukam currently playing with having a readahead pack for rcS13:54
Keybukand a separate one for rc2+60s13:54
Keybukthis doesn't seem to be any faster than just having one large readahead pack for the entire boot13:57
pittione large pack works reasonably well here, except that it blocks the boot for 20 secons very early on13:58
pittiso it's not good for the "bring up X ASAP" approach13:58
Keybukhttp://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-2.png  - one large pack running in the background13:59
Keybukhttp://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-2.png  - one large pack running in the foreground13:59
Keybukhttp://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-8.png  - two packs in the foreground13:59
Keybukerr13:59
Keybukhttp://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-3.png  - one large pack running in the foreground13:59
pitti. o O { waah xkbcomp }14:01
Keybukdoesn't seem to be much in it between -2 and -314:02
seb128pitti, what was the magic again to drop caching?14:02
pittiseb128: echo 3 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches14:03
seb128pitti, danke14:03
=== MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow
mdzKeybuk, how big is the readahead data?14:22
Keybukmdz: 1969 files, 73604KB, 2318 fragments  (HDD optimised)14:25
Keybukmdz: 1977 files, 67963KB, 2320 fragments  (SSD optimised)14:25
mdzinteresting, smaller than I might have guessed14:25
Keybukthis is using sreadahead rather than readahead-list14:25
Keybukso the pack is the "set of files opened during boot that are still in the page cache by the end"14:26
Keybukthis may or may not mean it's self-limiting in size14:26
rickspencer3_Hi all14:52
rickspencer3_I forgot to send the reminder mail regarding the team meeting and activity reports :(14:52
* rickspencer3_ notices that most people sent them anyway14:52
seb128hey rickspencer3_14:53
pittihey rickspencer3_14:53
rickspencer3_hi guyses14:57
Keybukpitti: do you run i386 or amd64?15:08
pittiKeybuk: amd6415:10
Keybukpitti: ah, ok15:11
Keybukyou'd need to build a kernel to try my sreadahead stuff15:11
pittiKeybuk: I'll reinstall my box this evening or tomorrow morning15:11
Keybukwhy reinstall?15:12
pittiI'm not much fussed about which CD I'll use15:12
pittiKeybuk: alpha-3 testing15:12
pittiI just do it from time to time15:12
Keybukahh15:12
Keybukwas actually after numbers from a not-recently-reinstalled box ;)15:12
pittiI have nice scripts to turn a virgin install into "my" workstation, so it's relatively painless15:12
Keybukfreshly installed is boring, because the files are all in order on the disk15:12
pittiKeybuk: ah, ok; this install is from jaunty RCish, I think15:12
pittiwith files and packages moved and hacked all over the place15:13
pittiKeybuk: throw your kernel into a PPA?15:13
Keybukpitti: don't have a source or changes for it15:13
pittioh15:13
vuntzseb128: do you use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/compiz/enable-compiz or $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/compiz/disable-compiz? (wondering if this is something that is upstream)15:14
seb128vuntz, dunno, what are those?15:15
vuntzseb128: files to tell whether or not to use config (force a configuration for the user)15:15
seb128vuntz, ask mvo, I've no clue where those are stored and what value we use15:16
vuntzmvo_: hi :-)15:16
didrockspitti: are you aware about any easy access to prefix or data_dir specified by the user to retrieve it in setup.py with distutils-extra?15:18
pittididrocks: -EPARSE, I'm afraid15:19
pittididrocks: there is --prefix (/usr vs. /usr/local) and --root (like $DESTDIR)15:19
pittii. e. ./setup.py install --root=/tmp/x would install /tmp/x/usr/local/bin/15:19
didrockspitti: and I have to parse the command line to retrieve this? distutils doesn't gave any automagic function available when it's imported?15:20
pittididrocks: I'm afraid I still don't understand what you want to do15:21
didrockspitti: I just want to know where data files will be install when calling ./setup.py install (with eventually, --prefix= --root=...)15:22
didrocksinstalled*15:22
pittiaah15:23
pittididrocks: you need to do that in the 'install' command subclass15:23
pittididrocks: look at auto.py, class install_auto, def run15:23
pittiself.root is the --root argument15:24
didrockspitti: ok, I imagine there is the same with prefix and home :) Thanks a lot pitti15:24
dobeyhrmm15:25
pittididrocks: right, there should be similar properties15:25
dobeywhat would be the implications of disabling nautilus start-up by default?15:25
mvo_hi vuntz15:26
mvo_vuntz: we don't use this right now, but if its part of compiz-manager (the upstream script) than we will when someone updates the script :)15:27
vuntzmvo_: I think it's part of ccsm15:28
vuntzmvo_: simple-ccsm, actually15:32
* hyperair scratches his head and wonders why root privileges are required in order to eject a dvd.15:35
seb128hyperair, devicekit bug15:38
dobeyanyone want to see a really cool bug? set the gconf key /apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop to false in karmic :P15:39
dobeyi'd recommend doing it in gconf-editor though, so you can toggle it back on easily15:39
aranddobey: window list spam, eh?15:39
pittinautilus auto-exiting fighting with autostart .desktop file auto-respawning?15:40
dobeyarand: apparently gnome-session keeps trying to restart it15:40
dobeypitti: i can't find an autostart file. looks like gnome-session is doing it directly15:40
arandHello, I'm trying to push for an SRU in https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnumeric/+bug/316502 and I was wondering if I could get some help from here in making a debdiff?15:43
ubottuUbuntu bug 316502 in gnumeric "cannot release a graph in gnumeric after click and drag" [Medium,Fix released]15:43
hyperairah devicekit15:44
pittididrocks: hm, your new branch changes the entire debian/control15:50
pittididrocks: I deliberately didn't do that, since the user might make customizations15:50
pittididrocks: if you really want that, you could just have quickly unlink debian/control before calling python-mkdebian (or we add a --force switch?)15:51
didrockspitti: but you already override user depends custumization, no? And yes, I defintively need that for quickly as some values can be changed by the user in setup.py (like author not present the first time the user build a debian package)16:06
didrockspitti: and I think that not having this kind of stuff in distutils, and so, having setup.py and debian/control not in sync is source of user frustration16:07
pittididrocks: for newly added fields, that's no problem (long desc, author, etc.)16:07
didrocksso, the --force switch can be a solution :)16:07
pittididrocks: ok, so I'm fine with --force16:07
pittiwhich is pretty much equivalent to rm -r debian/16:07
pitti:)16:07
pittito regenerate all the files16:08
didrockspitti: not really, as we keep the debian/changelog :)16:08
pittiah, true16:08
didrockspitti: do you want me to add the --force switch?16:08
pittiif you want, please go ahead16:09
pittididrocks: I'm a bit busy with alpha-3 stuff16:09
didrockspitti: ok, I will do it in a couple of hours16:09
didrocksI imagine, that's why I propose that to you :)16:09
pittispeaking of which, *nnnng* http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20090721.4/16:09
pittihow many RMs does it need to produce a working set of isos?16:09
* pitti wonders what's broken this time16:09
pittioh, *phew*, just mirror lag16:11
pittiKeybuk: FYI, I sub'ed you to dx-karmic-os-switcher, since it's not quite clear how the graphical OS selector will be put in between X and gdm startup, and how to make sure that it stays around long enough to be useful without stalling boot16:18
pittiKeybuk: (I'm worried that they plan to add a sleep 5 or so)16:18
KeybukI still think the OS switcher should be an option in the gdm/user session shutdown dialogs16:20
pittirickspencer3_: meeting now? or am I confused?16:33
rickspencer3_pitti: I *think* it's in 57 minutes from now16:33
pittiah16:33
rickspencer3_asac: seb128: Riddell: etc...16:33
seb128pitti, you are confused16:33
rickspencer3_^ ?16:33
* rickspencer3_ wipes sweat from brow16:33
asacif we want we can meet now ;)16:35
asaci am ready16:35
hyperairhmm for some reason frets on fire appears to be having issues with pulseaudio.16:50
mat_tKeybuk: it should - that's still the plan (I think)16:56
mat_tKeybuk: it should be basically available at any stage (boot, gdm, user session)16:56
Keybukmat_t: that means writing a separate OS selector implementation for each stage though16:56
mat_tKeybuk: how separate?16:56
Keybukwell, during boot you would been to write an implementation inside the splash screen16:56
mat_tKeybuk: (I'm not surprised btw)16:56
Keybukthen you'd need to write a separate implementation for when X is up but gdm hasn't started16:56
Keybukand then you'll need yet another implementation for the gdm shutdown dialog and user session16:57
mat_tKeybuk: well, on boot it'll be running under X right16:57
Keybukonce X is up, yes16:57
Keybukthey might be checking filesystems, for example16:58
mat_tKeybuk: yeah, I didn't expect it to be easy :)16:58
Keybukas long as there's a "no sleep 5" understanding ;)16:58
* mat_t didn't get the "no sleep 5" bit... 17:00
mat_tKeybuk: btw, how can I tell visually when the X is up - when the mouse appears or when the usplash disappears?17:01
Keybukmat_t: mouse appears17:01
mat_tI see, so now it's around 10 secs17:02
mat_ton my mini 917:02
Keybukyeah, getting there slowly17:08
mat_t:)17:16
mat_tpitti: got a sec?17:16
rodrigo_pedro_: going out now, but please poke me later or tomorrow for buying your books, I've completely forgotten about it :)17:19
pedro_rodrigo_, oh! i've forgot about it too, ok will ping you tomorrow ;-)17:20
rodrigo_ok17:21
brycemorning17:23
kenvandinehey bryce17:23
pittimat_t: I meant, if there are normally two seconds between "X starts" and "gdm starts", you wouldn't have lots of time for showing the OS selector17:26
pittiand enlarging that period with sleeps is evil17:26
mat_tpitti: why sleeps?17:27
pittisince it's directly working against all the speedup work that Keybuk is doing17:27
pittimat_t: otherwise it would be too fast?17:27
pittimat_t: or is that compensated by the possibility of changing OS on shutdown or in gdm?17:27
pitti(that would be great)17:27
mat_tpitti: ok, so the idea is that the user would be able to invoke the os switcher during boot, but that would not stop the boot process. The OS switcher would be displayed independently of the gdm/desktop session17:28
mat_tpitti: in terms of slowing down, if you decide to reboot into another OS, you've interrupted the boot anyway. If you don't, it won't affect the boot at all (shouldn't)17:29
Keybukie. it's an always-on-top window?17:30
pittimat_t: so if the OS selector during boot is just displayed 2 seconds, because you have a fast box (and/or Keybuk rocks), you can compensate by just changing in gdm's option menu or something?17:30
rickspencer3_team meeting time17:30
* rickspencer3_ taps gavel17:30
Keybukyou see your desktop session (or gdm) underneath?17:30
mat_tpitti: and yes, ultimately the OS switcher should be available in gdm and desktop, too17:30
* rickspencer3_ ahem17:30
pittimat_t: thanks17:30
* pitti STFU17:30
* Riddell googles gavel17:30
* seb128 is there17:30
rickspencer3_ArneGoetje: asac bryce kenvandine awe seb128 pitti Riddell17:30
mat_tpitti: we'll talk more tomorrow, thanks!17:30
asacgood day17:31
rickspencer3_sorry to interrupt the conversation17:31
tkamppeterhi17:31
rickspencer3_mat_t: feel free to hang out for our meeting17:31
rickspencer3_hi tkamppeter17:31
mat_trickspencer3_: sure, pleasure!17:31
rickspencer3_https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-2117:31
rickspencer3_we start with actions from the previous meeting17:32
rickspencer3_please see the wiki for status there17:32
rickspencer3_nothing to discuss, I think17:32
rickspencer3_I will ask TheMuso about accessibility + empathy in the Eastern edition meeting17:33
pittiwhat was the a11y webkit result?17:33
pittiright17:33
rickspencer3_I have an announcement about bluetooth17:33
seb128GNOME is still discussing the topic17:33
seb128(webkit)17:33
rickspencer3_I arrange it so that we can all spend up to about $50 US on bluetooth equipment ...17:33
seb128discussion is active on d-d-l17:33
asacthx seb12817:33
* rickspencer3_ sorry17:33
rickspencer3_go ahead17:34
seb128rickspencer3_, that was all ;-)17:34
asacseb128: can you add archive pointers to wiki?17:34
asaclist archive17:34
seb128asac, will do when they reach consensus17:34
rickspencer3_I always manage that in the most awkward manner, don't I?17:34
seb128lol17:34
* rickspencer3_ tries not to interrupt again17:35
asacrickspencer3_: good news. wonder how we can coordinate that we have different devices. maybe we should setup a wiki page with bt hardware owned by desktopers?17:35
rickspencer3_asac: great17:35
rickspencer3_idea17:35
seb128do we have a list of "common devices"?17:35
seb128ie things we should be testing17:35
rickspencer3_I wanted to say, don't use the subsidy unless you are willing to ensure that you get it working for Karmic!17:35
rickspencer3_seb128: good question, I don't know17:36
rickspencer3_I was going to suggest we all try to get "different" things17:36
asaci think for dell hardware we have superm1 ... so maybe thats covered17:36
rickspencer3_like if we all get the same headset, it won't be so useful17:36
pittiso I can test obex and GPRS tethering here, I don't have audio hw17:36
* kenvandine will get bt headset17:36
rickspencer3_asac: would you be willing to set up the wiki page to track?17:36
awei just bought a new headset this morning.  good timing i guess!  :)17:37
asacrickspencer3_: i will17:37
Riddellthe getting it working part is probably quite hard in my case, I don't think KDE bluetooth is in a great state17:37
asacon this front i would like to push back the decision on what i default for a week.17:37
rickspencer3_ACTION: asac to set up wiki page to track bluetooth devices for desktop team17:37
Riddellbut worth trying17:37
rickspencer3_Riddell: should we be helping with that?17:37
rickspencer3_I'm not sure on how much infrastructure is cross desktop17:38
asaci got side tracked by too many things this week; also i think we need to get latest gnome-bluetooth in the archive to do the final evaluation17:38
rickspencer3_asac: ack17:38
* rickspencer3_ notes asac had a very full week17:38
pittiah, so that could fix some of the gripes I mentinoed on the ML (hangs, etc)17:38
asacRiddell: could you find out about the current KDE state on bluetooth?17:38
Riddellrickspencer3_: needs some upstream love to get up to get it up to date with the current infrastructure, it would be nice if we did help but then there's a load of stuff that would be nice that we're already trying to find time to do17:39
Riddellasac: yes I should17:39
asacknowing that it doesnt work is better than not knowing that17:39
rickspencer3_ACTION: Riddell to report on current state of BT in Kubuntu Karmic17:39
rickspencer3_I suppose we should all try our devices in Kubuntu as well17:40
rickspencer3_ok, if you have questions about expensing the bluetooth gear, please let me know17:40
rickspencer3_move on?17:40
* rickspencer3_ hands mic to kenvandine17:40
rickspencer3_partner update17:40
kenvandinepartner update17:40
pittinice choir17:40
kenvandineeveryone can view the current u1 integration status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status17:41
kenvandineprogressing17:41
kenvandinegot more MIRs this week and more coming for next week17:41
kenvandinethe new packages are trickling in17:41
asacack. i saw my queue growing17:41
kenvandinefirefox extension and desktopcouch should be in REVU by the end of the week17:42
pittiI currently have some stomachaid to fit them on the CDs17:42
kenvandineevo couch integration is in revu now17:42
pitti(later)17:42
awekenvandine: do you know if the team plans on making symbolic links work in the karmic time frame?17:42
* rickspencer3_ points quietly at the GIMP17:42
kenvandineawe, i do not know17:42
kenvandinegot a bug #?17:42
aweno17:42
kenvandineok, i can ask17:43
pittiplease file one, though17:43
rickspencer3_U1 does not work with symlinks?17:43
rickspencer3_that explains a lot17:43
kenvandineyeah, i suspect there is one already17:43
=== ember_ is now known as ember
aweme too, but i'll check17:43
kenvandinerickspencer3_, not outside of the Ubuntu One dir17:43
kenvandinealso17:43
kenvandinegtk-contact-picker has been moved out of scope for karmic17:43
kenvandinescreen sharing might get post poned as well, not sure yet17:44
rickspencer3_ah17:44
kenvandinewe should get that with telepathy anyway17:44
rickspencer3_so those can be reflected in your table next week17:44
kenvandineso it would just be the u1 integration that would get punted17:44
kenvandinerickspencer3_, yes17:44
rickspencer3_sweet17:44
kenvandineDX update17:44
kenvandinefusa rework (SUS) will be ready to integrate at the sprint17:45
kenvandineso should be good times :)17:45
pitti"SUS"?17:45
kenvandinethe replacement for fusa17:45
rickspencer3_slow user switcher?17:45
kenvandinenot sure what it stands for :)17:45
kenvandinehehe17:45
kenvandine Status-Users-Session17:46
rickspencer3_kenvandine: relative to Dx, I'd like to see some progress in making the GDM greeter *look* nicer17:46
kenvandinei guess the three things it controls17:46
rickspencer3_I'm seeing if I can get some resources for that17:46
kenvandinerickspencer3_, yeah... i think there is some debate about that17:46
rickspencer3_oh?17:46
kenvandinewell nobody is working on it yet17:46
rickspencer3_right, that's what I would like to fix, if possible17:46
kenvandineand i think there isn't agreement on how17:46
pittihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience17:46
kenvandinelike modify what is there17:46
kenvandineor write a new greeter17:46
kenvandinei think they are discussing it17:47
rickspencer3_pitti: right, but that's functional17:47
mat_trickspencer3_ I'm hoping to have a meeting with sabdfl next week to discuss17:47
rickspencer3_I'd at least like to see some "skinning", even if we can't make functional changes17:47
mat_t"skinning" is the plan minimum17:47
rickspencer3_but there may not be resources for that even, and we'll just live with the default for Karmic17:47
pittirickspencer3_: not really functional, most of the functinoality there is already present17:47
kenvandinemat_t, good17:47
pittiexcept for the autologin configuration, which we committed to anyway17:48
rickspencer3_ok17:48
kenvandinethat is all i have17:48
rickspencer3_ACTION: rickspencer3 to update on gdm greeter skinning resources at next meeting17:48
rickspencer3_thanks kenvandine17:48
Le-Chuck_ITAHi all, there's an ubuntu-specific bug in gnome-volume-control: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-media/+bug/40082017:48
ubottuUbuntu bug 400820 in gnome-media "gnome-volume-control-applet takes up to 40% cpu" [Low,Confirmed]17:48
seb128Le-Chuck_ITA, you are in the middle of a meeting there17:49
Le-Chuck_ITAsorry17:49
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: no problems17:49
rickspencer3_feel free to hang out, we'll get back to you when done17:49
rickspencer3_:)17:49
Le-Chuck_ITAchange the topic perhaps, bye and have fun :)17:49
rickspencer3_so where were we17:49
seb128Le-Chuck_ITA, we don't change the code so no reason for it to be ubuntu specific17:49
rickspencer3_right17:49
* rickspencer3_ hands mic to Riddell17:49
RiddellKubuntu Update17:49
Riddell-Alpha 3 currently blocked on a problem in Ubiquity, currently testing a fix17:50
Riddell-Social from the start now implemented, microblogging and opendesktop applet on desktop, kopete-facebook installed, still some touching up to make sure it doesn't get in people's way17:50
Le-Chuck_ITAseb128: do not want to break your meeting but read the bug and then eventually complain with the gnome developers who said it's ubuntu specific!17:50
Riddell-Kubuntu Netbook now has settings package and should see its first release with alpha 317:50
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: seb128 please wait until after the meeting, we are done soon17:50
rickspencer3_thanks :)17:50
Riddell(although currently it's just the desktop with different font sizes, that'll change though)17:50
Riddell-New Kubuntu council elected17:50
Riddell-ayatana patches merged upstream and backported to our packages, notifications now shared between KDE and Gnome, result!17:51
rickspencer3_!17:51
kenvandinewoot!17:51
mat_tnicely done!17:51
pitticongrats!17:51
Riddelland the freedesktop.org process seems to be making progress following GCDS (agateux's ayatana work highlighted that it wasn't currently working as it should)17:52
Riddell-Question: when is apport being turned on?  we have some experimental stuff and upstream are getting bug reports that would be better sent to us17:52
Riddell</end>17:52
rickspencer3_Thanks Riddell17:53
pittiRiddell: apport> last night17:53
Riddell"fixed yesterday" always a good answer :)17:54
brycepitti, oh apport has been off?  ah that explains a bit...17:54
asachehe17:54
pittibryce: it doesn't make much sense for the initial wave of merges, syncs, and upstream betas17:54
pittistuff gets fixed faster than people can report/process/close/test17:54
bryceshucks here I thought I was making such headway against the bug influx for a change :-)17:54
* rickspencer3_ has empathy and evo crashes to apport17:54
pittibut I think alpha-3 is a good cutting point17:55
bryceyeah makes sense17:55
pittibryce: that was the idea :)17:55
pitti(I'm serious)17:55
rickspencer3_lol17:55
seb128no need to collect thousand of bugs which will be deprecated before we look at those17:55
rickspencer3_right17:55
* bryce nods17:55
rickspencer3_pitti: seb128 that was a good idea17:55
seb128note that we do that every cycle ;-)17:56
* rickspencer3_ takes note17:56
rickspencer3_learn a little bit every turn of the crank ;)17:56
rickspencer3_move on?17:56
rickspencer3_support bugs ....17:56
rickspencer3_this is just a quick think about when our support team escalates bugs to us17:56
rickspencer3_please note that the key thing they need is for us to respond quickly with the status17:57
rickspencer3_rather then necessarily fix the bug17:57
rickspencer3_note that the process is covered on the wiki17:57
brycerickspencer3_, that's a good point but can you explain how that works for them?17:57
pittion the discussion we agreed on them assigning to canonical-*-team, is it that?17:57
rickspencer3_please assign the bug to yourself, and ping me17:57
* rickspencer3_ gets link17:57
pitti(and we review/assign to a person/comment and unassign)17:58
rickspencer3_sorry world, this is an internal link17:58
rickspencer3_http://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscelation17:58
rickspencer3_pitti: sure, that's fine17:58
asachttps://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscalation is the right one17:58
rickspencer3_this is a reminder to do that17:58
brycerickspencer3_, i.e. if it is a bug reported against jaunty, is it enough to let them know when it's fixed in karmic, or do we also owe a backport to fix the customer's machine?  (sometimes backporting is easy, sometimes it's a PITA)17:59
rickspencer3_and a reminder that the goal is to allow support to give the customer a status update asap17:59
rickspencer3_rather than fix the bug asap17:59
rickspencer3_bryce: just tell them the status first17:59
rickspencer3_they want to be responsive to the customer with information first18:00
pittithe primary idea of this process is to connect the right people and evaluate the status/cost/etc.18:00
pittioften, support cases are fine with a valid workaround, or even a "works for me" PPA package18:00
pittibut we had cases where important bugs were just ignored, since they weren't assigned, and we didn't know about them, etc.18:00
rickspencer3_pitti: right, and we recently had an opposite case, where a less important bug was escelated18:01
pittibryce: so if you say that a fix is hard to backport (like, KMS fixes a machine), this should be said so in the bug18:01
rickspencer3_and the engineer, trying to do the right thing, invested hours in trying to fix the bug18:01
bryceis there a listing of bugs support is waiting for response on, or do we need to track those ourselves?18:01
rickspencer3_bryce: you should be contacted directly in irc by the QA team if a support bug is escelated to you18:02
rickspencer3_you don't have to pole18:02
rickspencer3_make sense?18:02
brycerickspencer3_, right and that's working fine18:02
pittibryce: no polling, please; it's the support/business team's responsibility to initiate the process18:03
brycerickspencer3_, often though after the initial go around I don't hear back from them, but I know the bug's still open, so I never know if the workaround/status update was sufficient for their purposes, or if they want me to keep plugging away at doing a backport or whatever18:03
rickspencer3_after your initial reply, they will follow up with you if they need anything else18:04
brycealright18:04
rickspencer3_that's why it's important to ensure that the bug is assigned18:04
rickspencer3_so that it can be *unassigned*18:04
pittiand has the right status18:04
rickspencer3_yes18:04
pittii. e. "incomplete" or "wontfix" are quite clear on whose side the ball is18:04
pitti(for the stable task)18:05
* rickspencer3_ hands mic to pitti18:05
pittiso, we have alpha-3 on Thursday18:06
rickspencer3_release stuff18:06
pittihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus reflects our current status18:06
pittilooking fairly good so far18:06
pittiwe managed to get the structural changes planned for alpha-3 all settled by last week18:06
pittiand the current CDs now look reasonable18:06
pittimy main issue with them is size18:07
pittiI spent some time fixing overflows, but they are still too big18:07
pittiso, any idea about downsizing appreciated18:07
pittiwe currently have quite a lot of library/functionality duplication18:07
seb128documentation languagepacks?18:07
pittithe soyuz support for /usr/share/gnome/help is underway, but not done yet18:07
pitti(or, rather, the buildd changes)18:07
rickspencer3_pitti: didn't we decide this weeks ago?18:07
rickspencer3_move the GIMP off the disk if needed?18:08
* rickspencer3_ ducks18:08
pittiwe have stuff like xul vs. gtkhtml vs. xulrunner, or old vs. new policykit, etc.18:08
pittirickspencer3_: next against the wall, but it's "just" 6 MB18:08
pittiwe already dropped documentation to fit empathy and general growth18:08
asacpitti: xul vs. xulrunner?18:08
pittigimp removal will immediately be consumed by erlang plus couch db18:09
rickspencer3_ouch18:09
pittiand we need to fit in kenvandine's huge list of new packages still18:09
brycepitti, rickspencer3_:  You can take nv → nouveau off the planned plumbing changes.  we'll shoot for getting kms enabled in nouveau but I don't think that it'll be stable enough to have on as the default18:09
pittibryce: oh, ok18:09
kenvandinepitti, yeah they really add up18:09
pittibryce: done18:09
brycepitti, I figure we should EITHER do nouveau+kms, or nouveau+by-default, not both.  And KMS seems more important18:09
rickspencer3_pitti: are you looking for a "permanent" solution, or just for the alpha?18:09
asacwhat is using gtkhtml on CD?18:10
pittirickspencer3_: the alpha is fine18:10
pittia more permanent solution18:10
rickspencer3_what about removing the games package for the alpha?18:10
pittiasac: primarily evolution so far, but fixing that isn't trivial (and certainly not the type of thing we do ourselves)18:10
asacoh right. evo. for a moment i thought it was not on CD ;)18:10
pittiand we still don't have a single langpack18:10
* seb128 slaps asac18:10
rickspencer3_lol18:11
seb128pitti, expect clutter to maybe be added to the CD soon too18:11
* rickspencer3_ groans18:11
pitti..18:11
asachow much oversizing are we lookg at atm?18:11
pittianyway, whenever you stumble about something, please tell me18:11
seb128drop openoffice?18:11
* seb128 runs18:11
pittiasac: I managed to squeeze it < 700 MB for alpha-318:11
pittiit's more of a longer-term problem18:12
pittimost of the OLS stuff didn't land for a3 yet18:12
kenvandinethey will be small, but do add up18:12
rickspencer3_fewer games perhaps would saves some space?18:12
pittifor now I dropped bzr and sl-modem from ship, rebuilt perl against db4.7 (dropping db4.6), stuff like that18:12
pittirickspencer3_: yeah, they are quite big18:12
rickspencer3_robert_ancell would need to refactor the packages quite a bit, right?18:13
* crevette would suggest to shave gnome-games18:13
asacpitti: can you do another CD spin please? i think i communicated to the wrong person (steve) that ffox 3 was going to be uploaded today (which is done now)18:13
kenvandinerickspencer3_, i think robert_ancell is already planning on that18:13
pittiasac: tomorrow morning's dailies will probably be "the" images18:13
seb128rickspencer3_, we were speaking about splitting gnome-games18:13
rickspencer3_kenvandine: right,but "planning" and "doing" aren't always the same18:13
pittiasac: live build currently running, but more for smoke testing18:13
seb128rickspencer3_, but that will win 1.5meg18:13
asacok thats good enough18:13
seb128rickspencer3_, ie not a lot18:13
rickspencer3_only 1.5?18:13
seb128yes, games are 2d cards, etc games18:14
pitti1.5 MB isn't to be sneezed at18:14
seb128we already splitted documentation18:14
rickspencer3_I think this might need some more focused thought18:14
pittiI guess we can't build empathy with gtkhtml or xul?18:14
pittito drop webkit?18:14
seb128pitti, no18:14
pittinothing else is using it, right?18:14
rickspencer3_pitti: how do you suggest we go about making this deciscion?18:14
seb128pitti, and GNOME will bring webkit in anyway18:14
seb128pitti, well if GNOME decide webkit is a11y ready it will be install by default18:14
seb128yelp, etc will use it18:15
pittiso we have one app using webkit, one app using gtkhtml, one app using xul18:15
asacseb128: which components besides devhelp and yelp?18:15
seb128if it's not we will not build empathy with it18:15
rickspencer3_perhaps a table with less important apps, and how much space they would save would be a good starting point18:15
asacseb128: err devhel pisnt on CD18:15
mptbug 37674418:15
ubottuLaunchpad bug 376744 in gnome-games "Split gnome-games into one game per package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37674418:15
pittiasac: I'm not counting devhelp (not installed by default), but indeed, yelp is the 4th18:15
seb128asac, yelp and evolution for the rendering maybe18:15
rickspencer3_along with a sense of how much space we will need18:15
pittirickspencer3_: for games? ubuntu-devel@ discussion?18:15
rickspencer3_not just games .. the whole problem18:15
seb128mpt, the bug is outdated there is an ongoing email discussion with pitti and robert_ancell18:16
aboSamoorI upgraded from jaunty to karmic, and I got a black screen instead of gnome login, any help ?18:16
rickspencer3_it seems like we can generate some ideas here, but the actual decision making process will need to me somewhat more systematic18:16
pittirickspencer3_: ah; well, I wouldn't do that on a ML, too many people and too much bikeshedding18:16
seb128aboSamoor, try #ubuntu18:16
rickspencer3_pitti: right18:16
bryceaboSamoor, --> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/18:16
pittirickspencer3_: in fact, desktop team meeting seems like the right forum for this IMHO?18:16
* kenvandine agrees with pitti18:16
mptseb128, I don't see anything outdated about it, and it was reopened five days ago.18:16
rickspencer3_pitti: agreed, but I think we need some more structure before we decide18:16
rickspencer3_more documented facts18:17
pittiit's a well-known problem, discussed twice every cycle :)18:17
seb128mpt, it lacks argument about the discussion we had by email since18:17
seb128mpt, I will update it18:17
mptgreat18:17
pittis/firefox/epiphany+webkit/? :-)18:18
* pitti ducks from asac18:18
brycepitti, since IIRC windows comes with a couple games, it would seem prudent to also keep at least a couple games.  Solitaire and Mines.  The other games are fun but maybe not so interesting to a newb18:18
asacpitti: well, ephy+webkit would be nice to have at all18:18
pittibryce: yes, I wouldn't like to kick them all18:18
davmor2pitti: issues with codec selector using rhythmbox it's trying to find gsteramer input-selector rather than the mp3 codec18:18
asacits not yet decided upstream even18:18
pittidavmor2: later, please (meeting)18:19
pittiok, I'm done18:19
asacso most likely we end up with another self-made gecko port for epiphany18:19
pittiif something catches your eye in your daily work, please let meknow18:19
seb128asac, sudo apt-get install epiphany-webkit18:19
* asac being pessimistic18:19
pittibut so far, big kudos to the team for a nice alpha-3 status18:19
pittithe biggest wart so far is "two mixer applets in the panel"18:20
pittiwe had far worse18:20
seb128;-)18:21
* pitti hands mike back to rickspencer3_18:21
rickspencer3_ok18:21
rickspencer3_any other business?18:21
rickspencer3_One last thing ...18:22
rickspencer3_I was thinking about all the cool stuff in Karmic ...18:22
tkamppeterI have updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Halsectomy, the replacement for hal-cups-utils is under heavy developm,ent currently.18:22
pittioh, wrt. cool stuff; please everybody check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/TechnicalOverview if I forgot something18:22
tkamppeterSo probably alpha-4 will do Plug'n'Print via udev.18:22
pittitkamppeter: \o/18:23
rickspencer3_yeah I was able to just down a bunch of stuff in like one minute, check wiki for this meeting18:23
rickspencer3_tkamppeter: great news18:23
tkamppeterI have also completed a script on the OpenPrinting server to auto-build driver packages. So in the Karmic age we will probably have auto download of binary driver packages.18:24
rickspencer3_neat18:24
rickspencer3_that's been a goal of yours for a while, I think18:24
pitti(do I hear a "we can drop some from the CDs" there?)18:24
rickspencer3_hehe18:24
pitti(although that's unrelated, we can still have them packaged)18:25
Riddelltkamppeter: will that mean I need to make changes to system-config-printer-kde?18:25
tkamppeterRiddell, I will soon upload a new system-config-printer, at that stage you have also to resync with the 1.1.x git to catch the new udev part.18:26
Riddellmm, ok18:26
tkamppeterRiddell, This part of s-c-p replaces the hal-cups-utils package then, so s-c-p will obsolete out hal-cups-utils (we have to go through the bugs to see what goes away and what goes to s-c-p).18:27
asacpitti: removed me from jabber?18:28
tkamppeterRiddell: Stop, can be that there is nothing to do for you. The udev stuff is all non-GUI background code, so it goes into system-config-printer-common.18:28
pittiasac: sorry, empathy bug18:29
asacpitti: ah ok ;) ... i will rerequest18:29
tkamppeterRiddell: There I put it in and it is simply there, also for you.18:29
Riddelltkamppeter: ok we'll see what breaks, I hope to find a bit of time for s-c-p-k love anyway18:29
pittiasac: moving between groups copies instead of moves, and deleting the copy deletes the other one as well18:29
kenvandinehehe... sub-optimal :)18:30
rickspencer3_oops18:30
asacpitti: yeah. but seems it auto authorized at least18:30
rickspencer3_any other business?18:30
seb128no18:30
kenvandinenope18:30
rickspencer3_thanks to pitti for organizing alpha3 !!18:30
asacthanks!18:30
tkamppeterRiddell: Tim is working a lot on the GUI, too, so you should try to catch up with him (I did not look into the newest GUI changes of 1.1.x yet).18:30
rickspencer3_also, Karmic is already a great release, I can't wait until we release this!18:31
rickspencer3_it's going to be epic18:31
pittirickspencer3_: I'm just next in the RM food chain :/18:31
* rickspencer3_ taps gavel18:31
rickspencer3_thanks all!18:31
rickspencer3_you guys are really rocking this release18:31
seb128thanks!18:31
ArneGoetjethanks18:31
pittithanks all18:32
pitti1 h 0 mindesktop team meeting18:32
pittiwow, punctuality!18:32
seb128btw I expect the GNOME move to pulseaudio will be an issue again this cycle18:32
pitti(and wow broken whitespace copy&pate)18:32
brycethanks18:33
rickspencer3_seb128: really? seems to be improving for me18:33
ArneGoetjepitti: we could replace ttf-arphic-uming with ttf-wqy-zenhei on the CD18:33
pittiArneGoetje: nice, what would that break?18:33
seb128rickspencer3_, the capplet still doesn't allow to do some things18:33
pittiwould give us 2.1 MB18:34
pittiArneGoetje: is that just a matter of changing seeds, or does that need any fontconfig voodoo?18:35
seb128rickspencer3_, and what Le-Chuck_ITA was complaining about before is that skype is not working when using pulseaudio for some people appareantly18:35
Le-Chuck_ITAI will now retry18:35
davmor2pitti: I gotta shoot out for a bit.  If you fire up rhythmbox and then try any of the radio stations or magnatune or last.fm the codec searcher looks for input-selector rather than the codec required.  I'll throw a bug together after but it's been confirmed by fader_ and sbeattie on #u-testing18:35
pittidavmor2: ah, thanks for the bug18:35
ArneGoetjepitti: ttf-wqy-zenhei is more complete than ttf-arphic-uming, but lacks Hong Kong characters. WQY Zenhei also fits better to sans-serif.18:36
rickspencer3_seb128: is Skype getting rebuilt?18:36
ArneGoetjepitti: should be only seeds and live-cd, but need to test18:36
rickspencer3_I noticed that when I have a flash movie playing in FF, nothing else plays sound18:37
ArneGoetjepitti: and update language-support-fonts-zh18:37
pittiArneGoetje: ah, to pull in -uming?18:37
* Le-Chuck_ITA is going to reboot, test latest pulseaudio+skype, and report back18:38
ArneGoetjepitti: yes. Then wqy-zenhei will be the default Chinese font and uming an extra font from the archive18:38
pittinice18:38
pittiArneGoetje: could you test that, or did you already and foudn it working?18:38
seb128rickspencer3_, skype? it's closed source no?18:39
ArneGoetjepitti: need to test... unfortunately my virtualbox is not working... :( need to make a fresh install on a USB stick...18:39
rickspencer3_seb128: right ... so are users using a binary from Jaunty, and finding it doesn'18:39
rickspencer3_t work?18:39
pittiArneGoetje: ah, language-support-fonts-zh already pulls in both, which is fine, I think18:39
pittiArneGoetje: ok, let's do it post-a3 then18:39
ArneGoetjepitti: yup18:40
pittiArneGoetje: thanks!18:40
awerickspencer3_: skype talks directly to ALSA18:40
seb128rickspencer3_, I've no clue about it, Le-Chuck_ITA was complained about it not working when using pulseaudio18:40
pittiawe: i. e. to pulse's alsa emulation then, I guess?18:40
awerickspencer3_: yea18:40
pittiI'm off for some dinner and fresh air18:41
awepitti: i remember at uds that it was mentioned that skype abuses the alsa api18:41
pittisee you around tomorrow, or late night18:41
seb128me too, dinner18:41
pittiawe: right, I remember18:41
seb128pitti, interesting nautilus profiling, we can chat about it tomorrow18:41
pittidtchen's "why sound is broken" talk18:41
awebingo18:41
seb1288 seconds on a 20s start are due to brasero and totem options18:41
pittiseb128: "nautilus profiling"?18:41
pittiah, that18:41
pittiseb128: right, TTYL, enjoy dinner!18:42
rickspencer3_seb128: cool18:42
seb128dinner time, bbl18:43
rickspencer3_bye bye18:43
mat_trickspencer3_: did you have a chance to peep at the boot exp/os switcher spec?18:43
rickspencer3_mat_t: yes18:44
mat_trickspencer3_: looks like it's a potential artery clogger18:44
rickspencer3_mat_t: does the DX team have resources dedicated to it?18:44
mat_trickspencer3_: MacSlow probably18:45
rickspencer3_mat_t: what about the greeter, though?18:46
mat_trickspencer3_: well, exactly - it needs skinning *at least*18:46
* kenvandine suspect that would be MacSlow18:46
mat_t+ the ability to populate random avatars for newly created users18:46
rickspencer3_right, but I didn't see anything about that in spec (not that I read it that carefully)18:46
mat_t:)18:47
rickspencer3_mat_t: that sounds complex18:47
mat_tyes, we need to discuss with sabdfl first18:47
rickspencer3_what if we get no functional changes, is it possible to make it *look* better18:47
rickspencer3_?18:47
mat_trickspencer3_: we have a folder with avatars in the system already18:47
mat_tpitti said it should be doable18:47
mat_tusr/share/pixmaps/faces18:48
rickspencer3_mat_t: that's not my question18:48
rickspencer3_if we get no functional changes, do you think you can provide a skin that would make it look better?18:48
rickspencer3_or are the form and function too tightly bound?18:49
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: seb128: it seems the presence of pulseaudio also impacts jackd applications e.g. ardour18:49
mat_tsorry, was referring to the earlier question18:49
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: hmm18:49
mat_tyes, we can have the designs ready before the Dublin sprint18:49
rickspencer3_ardour works for me so long as I start it before anything else that uses pulse18:49
rickspencer3_mat_t: good, thanks18:49
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: perhaps this is not the place to talk about it, but this is very bad. I mean: gnome is currently aiming at replacing the "macos experience"18:50
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: right18:50
Le-Chuck_ITAand for that we need cool programs such as ardour18:50
rickspencer3_pulse audio has a lot of promise for the future, but is under development ...18:51
rickspencer3_and exposes lots of bugs and other problems in drivers, applications, etc...18:51
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: yes but how is the average karmic user supposed to use ardour?18:51
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: the work around for now is to close any firefox windows running flash, or other apps that are using sound, .. and then star ardour18:52
rickspencer3_but the community needs to continue to fix bugs in the stack until everything works perfectly ... this will take some time, but we will get htere18:53
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: I did that right now and does not work18:53
rickspencer3_hmm18:53
rickspencer3_so Jack doesn't start for  you?18:53
rickspencer3_I would suggest:18:53
Le-Chuck_ITA"the playback device "hw:0" is already in use."18:53
rickspencer3_1. hopping into #ubuntu for some support18:53
rickspencer3_2. making sure there is a bug logged, or log a new one if necessary using ubuntu-bug18:54
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: forget about the support I can disassemble my ubuntu piecewise, and can certainly remove pulseaudio18:54
Le-Chuck_ITA2 is ok18:54
rickspencer3_we don't really want to remove pulse audio, so much as making sure that it works as well as possible for release in October18:54
rickspencer3_so if you figure out a solution the problem, let TheMuso know18:55
rickspencer3_even if you just figure out the problem, and not the solution ;)18:55
Le-Chuck_ITAbefore reporting the bug I want to find a solution, just a question do you know how are the alsa devices called, for using fuser?18:55
rickspencer3_I don't know18:55
rickspencer3_I know very little about the sound stack18:55
rickspencer3_TheMuso is based in Syndey ... but he'll be a good person to track down to discuss with18:56
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA:  thanks for helping us with this!18:56
awerickspencer3_, Le-Chuck_ITA: at UDS dtchen talked about pulseaudio being the solution for consumer desktop, and jackd being the solution for pro audio type setups.  It doesn't sound to me like they're going to play well together in the short term18:57
rickspencer3_awe: true, but it should be possible to make them work together18:57
awerickspencer3_: not too sure about that...18:57
rickspencer3_or not *together* at the same time, so much as together on teh same computer18:57
awerickspencer3_: correct18:58
rickspencer3_like, I should be able to switch between them (and in fact I can)18:58
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: thank you for your patience18:58
Le-Chuck_ITAawe it's not my fault if the good music application use jack and ordinary people (e.g. mac users) also want to record music with their laptops just for fun18:58
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: i agree 100%18:59
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: keep chipping away it, we'll make it work!18:59
rickspencer3_sooner or later18:59
rickspencer3_Le-Chuck_ITA: you're on Karmic, right?18:59
rickspencer3_I've been assuming you've been talking about Karmic and not Jaunty18:59
Le-Chuck_ITAawe but pulse can do that: it should just leave the device free for others, either on user's request or with some automagicality. Esound did that when alsa was just a buggy bad dream18:59
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: of course19:00
rickspencer3_phew19:00
mat_trickspencer3_: np, please let me know if there's anything your guys are missing/something isn't clear/etc. I'll keep you posted anyway19:01
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: as far as i know, pulse wants to own *all* of the audio on the system.  it also configures a plugin so that native ALSA calls get re-routed to pulse19:01
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: unfortunately, i haven't played around with ardour in a long time, so i'm not that familiar with jack19:01
Le-Chuck_ITAthat's nice but all unix applications can call close(2) :)19:01
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: yea, but if you shutdown pulse, you lose system sounds, flash, etc...19:02
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: i don't think pulse was designed to turn on/off19:02
Le-Chuck_ITAthat's because jack owns the hardware. That's correct because it needs realtime priority on it19:02
Le-Chuck_ITAso no surprise that you can't hear flash while recording your guitar19:02
aweLe-Chuck_ITA: you might want to check with folks on #ubuntu-studio19:03
Le-Chuck_ITAyes I certainly will thanks for the suggestion19:03
Le-Chuck_ITAI had forgotten about them19:03
awenp19:03
Le-Chuck_ITAok thanks and bye.19:04
=== greg_g is now known as greg-g
chrisccoulsonhey seb12820:33
chrisccoulsonyou had a good day today?20:33
seb128hello chrisccoulson20:33
seb128yes, what about you and your middle of the night waking up today?20:34
chrisccoulsoni was very tired this morning. and i ended up working until 6pm too20:34
seb128urg20:34
chrisccoulsoni have to do it all again on thursday too. i might try and get friday off work though ;)20:35
seb128that would be deserved with the days you are having20:35
chrisccoulsonyeah, i hope so. i'll sleep well tonight anyway!20:36
pittigood night everyone!20:36
seb128'night pitti20:36
chrisccoulsongood night pitti20:36
pittisome CD testing still and then bedtime20:36
pittiburned the midnight oil too long yesterday, tired :(20:36
seb128pitti, same here, need to get some sleep too20:37
seb128pitti, I don't agree with the gdm changes but we can discuss that tomorrow20:38
seb128ie the suggests should be recommends20:38
chrisccoulsoni see main is frozen now. no need for me to rush on the g-s-d update then ;)20:40
seb128chrisccoulson, soft freeze but right20:40
chrisccoulsoni've pretty much done it, but i had to get some sleep in the end last night20:41
chrisccoulsonand i've been removed from civilisation today, so no chance for me to do anything useful ;)20:41
Le-Chuck_ITArickspencer3_: where would you report the bug that ardour can not be used in the default desktop? I would really like this to be requirement-driven, that is "I want to run ardour in a fresh ubuntu installation", rather than hunting for who is the culprit21:09
Le-Chuck_ITAperhaps pulseaudio in both cases?21:09
davmor2okay so what's the name of the easy codec installer?22:42
TheMusoGood morning.23:38
robert_ancellTheMuso, hey23:55
robert_ancellrickspencer3_, hi23:55
TheMusoHey rickspencer3_.23:55
TheMusorobert_ancell: Looks like you're going to have quite a mild day down there today. :)23:55
rickspencer3_hi guyses23:55
robert_ancellTheMuso, is it rough out west?23:55
TheMusoIts rather windy, and very mild.23:56

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