[00:00] <seb128> have text entries allow to middle click in the one you want
[00:00] <seb128> it's visually easy and really quick since you don't need the keyboard
[00:00] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: good morning
[00:00] <seb128> yeah, I expect that's not a standard usecase ;-)
[00:00] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3_, hi rick
[00:01] <seb128> the quest for a non buggy and efficient webbrowser is not an easy one ;-)
[00:01] <rickspencer3_> seb128: lynx?
[00:03] <seb128> rickspencer3_, do I look like one of those mutt users? ;-)
[00:03] <rickspencer3_> lol
[00:03] <seb128> I'm getting used to firefox in fact after a week
[00:03] <asac_> seb128: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/making-your-own-firefox-search-plugins-other-tips/
[00:03] <seb128> I just miss the quick bookmark entries
[00:04] <asac_> seb128: for most sites you can add existing searchplugins: http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html
[00:04] <asac> there are zillions sites prepared there
[00:04] <seb128> that's the most efficient thing you can get in a webbrowser ;-)
[00:04] <seb128> asac, ok thanks
[00:06] <seb128> that one extra click compared to a bar of entries but that might be good enough ;-)
[00:07] <asac> seb128: ah you want search fields directly added to bookmark toolbar
[00:07] <asac> most likely there is an extension available too
[00:07] <seb128> right
[00:08] <seb128> have you ever used galeon? I think they do that by default ;-)
[00:08] <seb128> ie I've usually 7-8 of those
[00:08] <seb128> bugs numbers for launchpad, gnome, fd.o, list of bugs for those and some extra ones
[00:09] <seb128> so I just have to select a bug number and middle click it in the right entry
[00:09] <seb128> I might get used to the firefox way, I keep mixing my keywords right now though ;-)
[00:09] <asac> yes, thats why i remembered that now - because i had this in galeon; i think i actually used it in ephy too
[00:15] <seb128> time to go to bed, 'night
[00:24] <bcurtiswx> hey all, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-sounds/+bug/400485 i think is fairly important is were making empathy default... but its my own bug.. i don't want to appear biased :-/... thoughts?
[06:27] <pitti> Good morning
[06:45] <TheMuso> Morning pitti.
[08:16] <didrocks> good morning pitti
[08:20] <seb128> good morning there
[08:20] <pitti> hey didrocks, hey seb128
[08:21]  * pitti continues the CD size war
[08:21] <seb128> hello pitti
[08:21] <pitti> I dropped some packages yesterday, and today's amd64 daily grew by 2 MB
[08:21] <seb128> pitti, gtk fix confirmed to work on amd64?
[08:21] <pitti> seb128: yep, works fine here; thanks
[08:21] <seb128> good
[08:25] <didrocks> lut seb128
[08:25] <seb128> 'lu didrocks
[08:25] <didrocks> good luck pitti with alpha3 :)
[08:26] <pitti> thanks didrocks
[08:30] <pitti> we need to downsize pidgin
[08:31] <seb128> didrocks, did you need some other reviewing for your gir update?
[08:31] <pitti> seb128: do you know about the chance to use webkit or xul in evolution, instead of gtkhtml?
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, what is the issue with pidgin it didn't change recently
[08:32] <pitti> seb128: telepathy depends libpurple depends pidgin-data
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, webkit for evolution no chance this cycle, they work toward rendering using it but not editing yet
[08:33] <pitti> ok :/
[08:33] <seb128> pitti, well that's nothing new, should not explain the difference since yesterday
[08:33] <pitti> seb128: no, not for this differnce (that was mainly bzr, man-db, and a few bits)
[08:33] <pitti> I threw out bzr from amd64/alternate ship
[08:33] <pitti> and now rebuild perl against db 4.7 (another .5 MB)
[08:34] <slomo> seb128: you had a patch for glib 2.21 that used /usr/share/gnome/applications hardcoded instead of the user data directory... since which gnome-session version is this patch unnecessary?
[08:35] <slomo> seb128: also you'll probably see some bugreports on gstreamer packages that seeking is broken since 0.10.23.2/.3, this will be fixed soon (and of course before 0.10.24)
[08:35] <mac_v> seb128: hi... have the problems with ubuntu-client been fixed? had it uninstalled since it kept crashing nautilus
[08:35] <mac_v> ubuntuone that is^
[08:36] <seb128> slomo, hum, let me look, not sure what patch you refer to
[08:36] <seb128> mac_v, should be since yesterday yes
[08:36] <mac_v> oh.. ok thanx
[08:37] <seb128> slomo, we didn't have any ubuntu specific change in karmic that I can tell
[08:37] <slomo> seb128: oh, i've misread the diff... 02_usr_share_gnome_applications.patch and it's usage was dropped in debian. so you can drop it for ubuntu too ;)
[08:38] <seb128> slomo, right, that one was coming from Debian, thanks
[08:38] <seb128> slomo, updating to 2.21 in debian?
[08:38] <slomo> yes
[08:38] <seb128> slomo, thanks for the gstreamer warning, should we track experimental pre-versions? ;-)
[08:39] <slomo> yes, track them if there are still a few weeks for updating to the releases ;)
[08:40] <slomo> seb128: and you probably want to get libgdata from pkg-gnome svn to enable the youtube plugin in totem again
[08:40] <seb128> slomo, ah thanks, waiting in NEW for debian?
[08:41] <slomo> yes, it was rejected last time because there were unversioned files in the library package *sigh* :)
[08:41] <slomo> svn has libgdata 0.4.0, this is the version you'll need for totem 2.27.2 (which will be released in the next days)
[08:41] <seb128> ok good
[08:42] <slomo> and you need the gstreamer pre-releases for totem 2.27.2 anyways
[08:43] <seb128> slomo, anything exciting in the new totem?
[08:43] <seb128> still better dvd playing I guess? ;-)
[08:43] <tjaalton> asac: re xserver 1.7; iirc it hasn't been branched yet, nor is master abi stable yet
[08:44] <slomo> seb128: yes, and many bugfixes and totem now tries to mount gio locations if they're not mounted yet
[08:44] <seb128> slomo, ah good!
[08:45] <slomo> but you still can't play your non-ac3 dvds unfortunately :) did you try the patch in bugzilla already?
[08:47] <seb128> slomo, oh, forgot about this one, I was travelling what you added the comment, will do that this week
[08:48] <slomo> seb128: ok, that will show us at least if that's the reason for your problem (the patch is far from perfect yet)
[08:48] <seb128> slomo, I need to try DVD playing in karmic, the 2.26 totem was very buggy for that, lot of users complaining about permission issues
[08:48] <pitti> nautilus-sendto | 1.1.5-0ubuntu1 |        karmic | source, amd64, i386
[08:48] <seb128> which could also be due to libdvdcss or libdvdread but totem doesn't make that clear
[08:48] <pitti> nautilus-sendto-universe | 1.1.2-0ubuntu3 | karmic/universe | source, amd64, i386
[08:48] <pitti> any idea what the latter package is good for?
[08:49] <seb128> pitti, to build options for things which are not in main
[08:49] <seb128> pitti, the empathy one should be moved to the main version now but there is still upnp
[08:49] <seb128> pitti, the main reason was to have the empathy option available somewhere in jaunty
[08:50] <pitti> I was going to do a no-chagne rebuild to NBS out the old libempathy libs
[08:50] <pitti> ah, ok
[08:52] <seb128> pitti, any hurry to clean that? I can do the changes a bit later if you want (busy on some other things right now)
[08:53] <pitti> just doing some NBS cleanup
[08:54] <seb128> pitti, feel free to do a no change rebuild for now if you want to clean that quickly
[08:54] <pitti> (already done)
[08:54] <didrocks> seb128: I didn't have the time yesterday and surely not this evening to update clutter. I think I will do it on Thursday (gobject-introspection has been uploaded). Let's first fix some "quickly" bugs and distutils-extra merge proposal :)
[08:54] <seb128> didrocks, ok, no hurry, thanks
[08:55] <slomo> seb128: other than that, are you aware of any other new gstreamer/totem bugs that are reported often? :)
[08:55] <pitti> seb128: my main concern is http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/karmic_probs.html right now, so I spotted it
[08:56] <seb128> slomo, recent issues or just bugs which annoy users over cycles?
[08:56] <slomo> seb128: both
[08:57] <seb128> slomo, one of the annoying thing is that the gio totem doesn't ask for login password when trying to play an online ogg on a protected website
[08:57] <seb128> not sure that's a common usecase but it's annoying some people there since we have some of those on canonical websites
[08:58] <seb128> otherwise the most frequent complain in jaunty is DVD playing raising permission errors
[08:58] <slomo> that's what i've fixed for 2.27.2, at least if the gio plugin is used... if the soup plugin is used that's still a problem
[08:58] <seb128> is the gio plugin ranked higher?
[09:00] <slomo> nope :) and it shouldn't because gio's http support is very minimalistic... hm, i might take a look at fixing this with the soup plugin too in the next days
[09:00] <seb128> would be nice ;-)
[09:00] <seb128> otherwise out of DVD playing which should already be better in karmic no real common complain
[09:01] <slomo> ok :)
[09:01] <seb128> lot of "no sound" issues often due to pulseaudio but totem doesn't make clear what's going on
[09:01] <seb128> not sure it could though
[09:01] <seb128> and one complain which comes every now and then is that buffering seem to suck
[09:01] <seb128> at least in the webbrowser player
[09:02] <seb128> ie bug #108623
[09:02] <slomo> that should be better now too
[09:03] <seb128> ok
[09:09] <slomo> seb128: is there an upstream bug for the http authentication stuff?
[09:10] <seb128> slomo, gnome bug #556708
[09:11] <slomo> thanks
[09:16] <asac> tjaalton: so we might not get Xserver 1.7 for release? or just later?
[09:32] <seb128> pitti, any objection to me uploading notify-osd new version in karmic now?
[09:33] <pitti> seb128: no, if you test it and it works, go ahead
[09:33] <seb128> pitti, ok thanks
[09:33] <pitti> general attitude is "upload with care and don't break anything" (library transitions, etc.)
[09:33] <pitti> not "don't uplaod anything"
[09:42] <ara> seb128, are you referring to the tar.gz that MacSlow announced yesterday?
[09:42] <seb128> ara, yes, why?
[09:42] <ara> seb128, is there a PPA already? (I would love to test it)
[09:43] <seb128> ara, dunno, that would be a question for MacSlow, I'm about to do a karmic proper upload
[09:43] <ara> seb128, excellent, thanks :)
[09:44] <cassidy> hey guys. What's https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/desktop-data-model/1.2.5-2build1 ?
[09:47] <seb128> cassidy, apt-cache show libddm-1-0
[09:47] <seb128> "Description: Desktop Data Model library
[09:47] <seb128>  Desktop Data Model (DDM) is a library used by the Mugshot client and all
[09:47] <seb128>  Online-Desktop programs."
[09:47] <seb128> cassidy, ^
[09:48] <cassidy> I didn't know they were using empathy
[09:48] <pitti> cassidy: apparently they do; I uploaded a rebuild against the current soname
[09:48] <pitti> (beyond that, I have no clue whatsoever what ddm is)
[09:52] <lool> seb128: Wow the no change reupload of gtk did fix things??
[09:52] <pitti> lool: just as mysteriously as it got broken in the first place :)
[09:52] <lool> I don't like that but well
[09:52]  * lool kills his gtk+ build
[09:53] <seb128> lool, yes
[09:54] <seb128> lool, I don't like it either but that would take a day of debugging and I've other things I prefer to do ;-)
[09:58] <seb128> MacSlow, notify-osd 0.9.15 uploaded to karmic
[09:59] <ara> MacSlow, are durations working with this release?
[09:59] <pitti> ok, release engineering bits done for now, /me looks at the gnome-keyring ssh breakage
[10:01] <seb128> pitti, I don't get the issue there on current karmic for what is worth
[10:01] <pitti> hm
[10:01] <pitti> the daemon works, but my session doesn't have $SSH_AUTH_SOCK
[10:01] <pitti> I'm going to reinstall my box with current karmic daily today anyway
[10:01] <pitti> so perhaps it's just some local cruft
[10:03] <pitti> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus_dbus-launch seems to trigger now
[10:03] <pitti> martin    3859  0.0  0.0  26156   516 ?        S    Jul20   0:00 dbus-launch --exit-with-session gnome-session
[10:04] <pitti> but gnome-keyring doesn't use any Xsession.d scripts
[10:04] <pitti> seb128: do you know how my session is supposed to get the $SSH_AUTH_SOCK variable?
[10:04] <seb128> pitti, over dbus, there is an api to export environment
[10:05] <seb128> pitti, but you are right, gnome-session doesn't have it set
[10:05] <seb128> strings /proc/$(pidof gnome-session)/environ | grep SSH
[10:05] <seb128> nothing
[10:05] <seb128> gnome-panel does though
[10:05] <seb128> and I start my g-t from a launcher
[10:05] <seb128> which explains why it works there
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, downgrading to gnome-session 2.26.1 makes no difference
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, I would tend to blame dbus there
[10:16] <pitti> ah, I start it from a ~/gsession script
[10:16] <pitti> strings /proc/$(pidof gnome-panel)/environ|grep SSH -> nothing
[10:16] <mat_t> seb128: pitti: morning!
[10:16] <pitti> hey mat_t
[10:17] <mat_t> pitti: fyi https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Design started putting that together yesterday
[10:17] <seb128> pitti, weird
[10:17] <seb128> $ strings /proc/$(pidof gnome-panel)/environ|grep SSH
[10:17] <seb128> SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/keyring-cwnYZr/socket.ssh
[10:17] <seb128> hey mat_t
[10:17] <mat_t> hey seb
[10:17] <pitti> mat_t: I saw, looks great!
[10:18] <mat_t> cool!
[10:19] <didrocks> pitti: when you have some time, if you can review and merge my branch for disutils-extra (https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~didrocks/python-distutils-extra/update_control_file/+merge/9090). Other changes you made works perfectly. Thanks a lot :)
[10:19] <MacSlow> ara, no
[10:19] <MacSlow> seb128, thanks
[10:19] <mat_t> pitti: seb128: I'll be adding more stuff today, will keep you updated
[10:19] <MacSlow> seb128, any issues with building the .deb for 0.9.15?
[10:20] <seb128> MacSlow, no, it went just fine
[10:20] <seb128> MacSlow, you have almost 80 bugs though, time for some triage maybe there? ;-)
[10:20] <MacSlow> ara, the blur- and surface-cache work which went into 0.9.15 was a needed preparing-step for the durations
[10:20] <seb128> mat_t, ok thanks
[10:20] <ara> MacSlow, OK, thanks :)
[10:20] <MacSlow> seb128, no need to remind me about that
[10:21] <mat_t> ara, MacSlow: hi
[10:21] <pitti> seb128: I downgrade d-bus, and check where the regression is, and file a bug
[10:21] <ara> hey mat_t ;-)
[10:21] <mat_t> :)
[10:21] <MacSlow> seb128, dx is making sure my todo-list if filled
[10:21] <seb128> pitti, good luck, let me know
[10:22] <MacSlow> seb128, but some bugs will be "implicitly" fixed by the coming (feature) work
[10:22] <seb128> MacSlow, well there is a crasher with some 7-8 duplicates
[10:22] <seb128> could be worth looking at it
[10:23] <MacSlow> seb128, ara: with 0.9.15 there is on "major" regression though... the over- and undershoot-effects for feedback/sync. bubbles (e.g. volume, brightness) are not working
[10:23] <seb128> indeed, I can confirm that
[10:27] <MacSlow> mat_t, hi there
[10:28] <seb128> ok, I'm away to buy food and some other things, bbl
[10:42] <asac> mvo_: any chance we get a kde enabled apturl backend?
[10:42] <asac> ;)
[10:42] <asac> or is that off the radar for karmic
[10:48] <mvo_> asac: its not on my radar, but it should be easy to do, maybe I should just do during the freeze or something
[10:50] <mdz> pitti, I see the same as you (no ssh agent in my session since last login)
[10:50] <pitti> mdz: right, currently trackig that down
[10:50] <pitti> downgrading d-bus doesn't help
[10:50] <pitti> so that's not it
[10:51] <mdz> pitti, ~/.xsession-errors says SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/keyring-uZ6Zb2/socket.ssh
[10:51] <pitti> mdz: mine too, and starting ssh with SSH_AUTH_SOCK= ... ssh works
[10:51] <pitti> but the variable isn't exported
[11:28] <mdz> pitti, should I open a bug report about the SSH_AUTH_SOCK issue?
[11:28] <pitti> mdz: please go ahead; I still don't know which package is to blame yet
[11:28] <pitti> I downgraded dbus, gnome-session and gnome-keyring, no success so far
[11:28] <pitti> I'm investigating gdm now
[11:31] <vuntz> it's not me!
[11:31]  * vuntz is afraid seb128 will blame him ;-)
[11:31] <didrocks> vuntz: ahah :-)
[11:40] <tkamppeter> pitti, foo2zjs updated.
[11:41] <mdz> is anyone else seeing bug 401055?  it's just happened to me again
[11:41] <mdz> Gdk-ERROR **: The program 'firefox-3.5' received an X Window System error.
[11:42] <pitti> tkamppeter: danke!
[11:42] <seb128> mdz, can you get a stacktrace for the crash?
[11:43] <mdz> seb128, yes, it leaves behind a crash report thanks to apport handling aborts now :-)
[11:43] <mdz> seb128, but it's my understanding that usually these are useless without --sync
[11:43] <pitti> oh, I didn't even implement that yet :)
[11:43] <pitti> apport needs to fish the abort message from the coredump
[11:43] <seb128> mdz, right, you might want to hack apport to add a --sync option to the call
[11:44] <seb128> mdz, you only get the issue when using apport? does using the same command which is listed in the .crash lead to the crash?
[11:44] <mdz> pitti, oh, it's SIGTRAP, not SIGABRT in this case
[11:44] <pitti> seb128: any chance that we could drop the second mixer applet for alpha-3?
[11:45] <mdz> seb128, I have not been able to reproduce it by running firefox manually, even with the same command line
[11:45] <seb128> pitti, I'm not decided or what to do there, I can foresee people complaining about not letting it built as an option to use
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: so one is the master level, the other is the pulseaudio virtual "software" mixer?
[11:45] <pitti> I'm not quite sure what the second is all about
[11:46] <pitti> and it uses the vertical slider, just as in intrepid
[11:46] <seb128> mdz, I can confirm the crash there
[11:46] <seb128> pitti, the notification area icon is the pulse modern upstream way
[11:46] <seb128> pitti, the applet is the old deprecated mixer which you can still build using a configure option
[11:47] <pitti> seb128: so the vertical slider one is actually the "new" one?
[11:47] <seb128> yes
[11:47] <seb128> it's not an applet
[11:47] <seb128> it's a notification area icon
[11:47] <pitti> ah
[11:47] <pitti> seb128: so perhaps we could ship the applet, but not enable it by default?
[11:48] <seb128> pitti, right, but that doesn't fix the upgrade issue
[11:48] <pitti> I was already about to document it as a known issue for alpha-3, but then I realized that I don't even know what the bug is, i. e. which one is right
[11:48] <seb128> mdz, downgrading libgtk workaround the crash
[11:48] <seb128> mdz, I reassign the bug to gtk+ now
[11:48] <pitti> seb128: the applet could just hide itself/quit if pulseaudio is running, perhaps?
[11:49] <seb128> pitti, we had the same issue for half of jaunty for what is worth so maybe it was documented there
[11:49] <seb128> ie have a look to jaunty alpha notes
[11:49] <asac> mdz: did you manage to get a backtrace? i think it had something to do with XQueryTree either erroring directly or returning a BadWindow that causes this error later. like in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/widget/src/xremoteclient/XRemoteClient.cpp#471
[11:50] <seb128> pitti, I don't like the "have an applet use memory etc for ever after upgrade"
[11:50] <mdz> pitti, filed bug 402161
[11:50] <seb128> pitti, ie if it's masked it's still running and you have no way to drop it
[11:51] <pitti> seb128: could it disable itself (in gconf) in that case, and just quit?
[11:51] <pitti> ah, that would make gnome-panel freak out
[11:51] <seb128> yes
[11:51] <mdz> asac, I have not tried with --sync yet, though it's easy to reproduce so I will try it now
[11:51] <pitti> so I guess "disable itself and hide"
[11:51] <seb128> you would get the "applet crashed" dialgo
[11:51] <seb128> dialog
[11:51] <pitti> and the next session wouldn't start it any more
[11:51] <pitti> mdz: thanks
[11:52] <seb128> asac, mdz: doesn't happen with previous gtk so it could be a gtk bug
[11:52] <asac> when i had that, --sync made it go away unfortunately
[11:52] <asac> seb128: its odd. i saw it in the middle of the jaunty cycle
[11:52] <seb128> mdz, pitti: I doubt the gnome-keyring-daemon ssh issue is a gnome-keyring one
[11:52] <mdz> seb128, I didn't know where else to put it
[11:52] <seb128> asac, well, I get it every time and dpkg -i libgtk2.0-0 2.17.2 and it works
[11:52] <pitti> seb128: I downgraded gnome-keyring, gnome-session, and dbus, these aren't it
[11:52] <pitti> I suspect gdm, investigating right now
[11:52] <seb128> pitti, next is gdm?
[11:52] <seb128> ok, same though
[11:52] <pitti> given that gdm broke everything else recently, too :)
[11:53] <pitti> but before... lunch!
[11:53] <seb128> asac, hum, it doesn't crash but it's not happy either
[11:53] <seb128> (firefox-3.5:24830): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: IA__g_object_weak_unref: couldn't find weak ref 0xed08a0(0xb2eb2ec0)
[11:54] <seb128> with "old" gtk
[11:55] <seb128> asac, in fact it crashed on second try so maybe not gtk
[11:55] <asac> seb128: i think we see some weird Xid caching bug again
[11:56] <asac> from what i know gdk maintains their own xid caches and so if you someting directly with X skipping gdk it might cause some troubles
[11:56] <asac> seb128: so you still see the BadError with older gtk?
[11:56] <seb128> asac, yes but not every time
[11:56] <asac> yeah. and --sync fixes it
[11:59] <seb128> asac, $ firefox-3.5
[11:59] <seb128> (firefox-3.5:25746): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: IA__g_object_weak_unref: couldn't find weak ref 0xbe78a0(0xb4ff1ad0)
[11:59] <seb128> asac, do you get those warnings too?
[12:01] <asac> seb128: oh yeah. i am sure i didnt get them when i had the BadWindow bug last time
[12:03] <mdz> asac, I'm unable to get it to crash by substituting a shell script (/usr/lib/.../firefox-3.5 --sync "$@") for gnome-open
[12:03] <mdz> I see the same glib warnings as seb128
[12:03] <mdz> without changing my gtk
[12:04] <asac> seb128: do you happen to know what that warning mean? e.g. the weak reffed object is already freed or the object was never weak reffed at all?
[12:04] <mdz> running gnome-open <url> doesn't crash either
[12:05] <mdz> the only way I can get it to happen is with apport so far
[12:05] <mat_t> pitti: some additions to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Design Basically the idea is to go straight to password entry if there's only 1 user account
[12:05] <mat_t> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience#Login%20screen%20with%20user%20picker%20and%20one%20user%20account
[12:06] <seb128> asac, dunno
[12:07]  * mat_t > food
[12:10] <mdz> asac, ok, I have got a crash with --sync by diverting /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1/firefox-3.5
[12:13] <mdz> asac, filed bug 402165, awaiting retrace
[12:13] <tjaalton> asac: later, I think, unless it's delayed too much
[12:14] <asac> mdz: how did you divert firefox-3.5?
[12:14] <mdz> asac, mv
[12:14] <mdz> perseus:[/usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1] cat firefox-3.5
[12:14] <mdz> #!/bin/sh
[12:14] <mdz> exec /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.1/firefox-3.5.real --sync "$@"
[12:20] <asac> seems its just hard to reproduce. after trying 20 times it really crashed for me too. great.
[12:27] <asac> retrace failed :/
[12:31] <mdz> asac, I just noticed that as well :-/
[12:33] <mdz> asac, I'm doing a local retrace
[12:33] <asac> mdz: you might get better results if you gdb it locally with firefox-3.5-dbg and xulrunner-1.9.1-dbg (and maybe gtk et al)
[12:33] <asac> right
[12:33] <mdz> that's what I'm doing
[12:34] <pitti> re
[12:36] <mdz> asac, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.5/+bug/401055/comments/2
[12:37] <mdz> (stack trace with symbols and --sync)
[12:43] <pitti> seb128, mdz: $SSH_B0RK is gdm bug
[12:44] <seb128> pitti, iz gdm bog? I'm not surprised, seems to be the gdm month or something ;-)
[12:44]  * pitti sighs
[12:44] <pitti> . o O { why exactly did we upgrade? :-) }
[12:44] <mdz> pitti, I tried to move it but you got there first
[12:45] <rodrigo_> hmm, new gdm doesn't let you select sessions in /usr/share/xsessions, right?
[12:45] <seb128> rodrigo_, it does
[12:45] <rodrigo_> and it doesn't seem to read .xinitrc/.xsession
[12:45] <pitti> works here
[12:45] <rodrigo_> seb128: oh, how?
[12:45] <seb128> rodrigo_, click on an user and you get a combo in the bottom bar
[12:45] <pitti> rodrigo_: as soon as there's more than one, it displays a combobox
[12:45] <rodrigo_> ah
[12:45]  * rodrigo_ tries
[12:46] <pitti> nowadays there's at least GNOME and xterm there
[12:47] <rodrigo_> I just added a jhbuild one, but when I right/left click on a user, it just goes to the asking for password steo
[12:47] <rodrigo_> no combobox here
[12:47] <rodrigo_> ah, on the bottom bar, sorry :)
[12:47] <asac> mdz: thanks. thats the code i had in mind.
[13:24] <lool> vuntz: I'd love to hear what you think of https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589241
[13:26] <Keybuk> seb128: does new-gdm have the same "prefetch" stuff that old-gdm did?
[13:27] <pitti> hah, gotcha
[13:31] <seb128> Keybuk, no
[13:34] <Keybuk> seb128: does it have any kind of scripts it runs synchronously to set up the user's session?
[13:35] <pitti> all of Xsession.d/
[13:35] <pitti> and I guess the first phase of autostart desktop files blocks until all are done, and the second phase is started?
[13:35] <Keybuk> if I put a script in Xsession.d, gdm will wait for that script to finish before moving onto the next one?
[13:36] <pitti> they are all sourced in order (they need to)
[13:36] <pitti> they shouldn't do anything expensive, if they do, that's a bug
[13:36] <Keybuk> well
[13:36] <pitti> it's mostly used to build a startup command line
[13:37] <Keybuk> would it be ok to run readahead from there? :)
[13:37] <pitti> if it helps
[13:37] <Keybuk> it'd block while it loads in all the blocks that the rest of the desktop is going to load
[13:37] <pitti> ah, I thought you found an expensive script there and were going to spank us :)
[13:37] <Keybuk> nope, I'm not going near desktop this cycle ;)
[13:37] <Keybuk> karmic is all about getting to X fast
[13:38] <Keybuk> what happens after that is your problem this release ;-)
[13:38] <pitti> Keybuk: :)
[13:38] <Keybuk> but since I'm fiddling with readahead
[13:38] <pitti> Keybuk: so yes, Xsession.d/ is an appropriate place for readahead
[13:38] <Keybuk> and only have an HDD-based Mini 10 right now
[13:38] <pitti> but I think it could do better
[13:38] <Keybuk> I thought I may as well move bits around and see if I can't speed things up a little
[13:38] <pitti> since ideally it would already start readahead when the gdm greeter is done
[13:38] <pitti> while the user types name/password
[13:39] <pitti> in other words, it could become a gdm autostart .desktop file
[13:39] <seb128> Keybuk, is the bootspeed much different on that one compared to the ssd you had?
[13:39] <vuntz> lool: hrm, not sure what's the best thing to do there
[13:39] <pitti> I'm not sure whether gdm's session itself uses some kind of Xsession.d/ script
[13:39] <james_w> pitti: how does apport determine that it has shown a problem to the user?
[13:40] <pitti> james_w: mtime != atime of the .crash file
[13:40] <james_w> I'm getting an "infinite loop" on a kernel problem report
[13:40] <pitti> (< in particular)
[13:41]  * asac lunch
[13:41] <pitti> yay ssh gnome-keyring
[13:41]  * seb128 back from lunch now
[13:41] <pitti> this was driving me nuts
[13:41] <seb128> pitti, what was the issue?
[13:42] <pitti> I have all my offlineimap etc. through ssh
[13:42] <seb128> I'm wondering why it still works for me
[13:42] <pitti> seb128: missing OPTIONFILE in /etc/gdm/Xsession
[13:42] <pitti> seb128: which caused /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus_dbus-launch not to be called properly
[13:42] <james_w> thanks pitti, seems to a kerneloops bug
[13:42] <pitti> james_w: ok, thanks
[13:43] <seb128> pitti, ah ok
[13:43] <Keybuk> seb128: of course, HDD is much slower
[13:43] <pitti> james_w: that's still not fixed: I ran into that loop months ago :/
[13:43] <Keybuk> pitti: how would I write one of those?
[13:43] <pitti> Keybuk: /usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/readahead.desktop
[13:43] <james_w> pitti: I'm rewriting it now
[13:43] <pedro_> seb128, bonjour, I'm planning to run an hug day based on Evolution on Thursday and will add some of the evolution-mapi bugs in case someone could reproduce any, that ok to you?
[13:43] <pitti> Keybuk: and Exec=/usr/bin/readahead blabla
[13:44] <lool> vuntz: me neither; the enable/disable flags seem a bit redundant
[13:44] <pitti> Keybuk: just copy e. g. metacity and update it accordingly
[13:44] <Keybuk> pitti: is that run with auto-login?
[13:44] <lool> With the a11y flag and with the possibility of using the app setting to disable it
[13:44] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, good point; it's not
[13:44] <seb128> do you need that on autologin?
[13:44] <seb128> you don't have a non-busy wait time you can use anyway
[13:45] <seb128> reading while gdm is loading or just after shouldn't make a real difference, does it?
[13:45] <pitti> Keybuk: well, if you just want to play with it, just use an Xsession.d script for now
[13:45] <Keybuk> seb128: it makes a big difference on HDD
[13:45] <pitti> Keybuk: if that's worth it, I'm fine with patching it into gdm itself, so that it's always run at a convenient time, also with autologin
[13:45] <Keybuk> on HDD, you really don't want readahead to run alongside anything else
[13:45] <Keybuk> since it relies on being able to drive the hard drive head in one direction
[13:45] <seb128> Keybuk, well, do you need any readahead if you don't have a stop time to do it?
[13:45] <pitti> when I moved all the gnome stuff to /etc/readahead/boot, that reduced gnome startup from ~ 30 to ~ 7 seconds
[13:46] <Keybuk> seb128: that's why I was looking for a point in gdm when it could run readahead and wait for it to finish
[13:46] <Keybuk> pitti: I'm not getting those kinds of results yet
[13:46] <pitti> Keybuk: with autologin I don't think that there's a scriptable place, but it sounds like a trivial patch
[13:46] <seb128> pitti, well, your readahead had all the datas for your user no? ie gconf, etc
[13:47] <pitti> but Xsession.d/ for autlogin is probably as good as it can get anyway
[13:47] <seb128> and that was a profile with datas
[13:47] <pitti> seb128: hm, not sure, but I don't think it had /home in there
[13:47] <seb128> ie it makes a higher difference
[13:48] <pitti> oh, hang on, I still have that profile
[13:48] <pitti> (until this evening, when I'm going to reinstall)
[13:48] <pitti> no /home there
[13:48] <pitti> I think it's clever enough to filter out /home
[13:48] <seb128> weird that you reach a lowing so fast with your slow disk without caching gconf, etc
[13:48] <seb128> lowing -> loging
[13:48] <pitti> whcih also explains why startup is still much slower with that than with a true hot cache (then it's like 3 seconds)
[13:49] <Keybuk> not really
[13:49] <Keybuk> readahead is a kinda "best guess" thing
[13:49] <Keybuk> it works on paper, but not so well in practice
[13:49] <seb128> well by time you have loaded gdm you have read most of what you need
[13:49] <seb128> since gdm uses the whole gnome stack included gnome-session, gconf, etc
[13:49] <Keybuk> except you probably haven't
[13:49] <pitti> but not nautilus, panel, compiz
[13:50] <seb128> everything remaining is mostly user data
[13:50] <Keybuk> things may have been loaded, and then flushed back out of the page cache to make way for other things
[13:50] <seb128> pitti, those are just a bunch of binaries though, not an hundred of libs
[13:50] <seb128> Keybuk, how does readahead make sure that doesn't happen?
[13:51] <Keybuk> seb128: it can't
[13:51] <Keybuk> in fact, readahead relies on that *not* happening
[13:51] <Keybuk> as soon as it does, it becomes a performance penalty rather than improvement
[13:51] <seb128> well, why would it happen to gdm but not readahead?
[13:51] <Keybuk> seb128: it does happen to both
[13:52] <seb128> so you best have to do readahead after everything else to make sure nothing else comes and flush things out?
[13:52] <Keybuk> before
[13:52] <seb128> well, I was thinking "gdm loads; you do readahead for session and sit on password prompt; then session load"
[13:53] <Keybuk> right
[13:53] <Keybuk> but you also need to make sure it works for autologin too
[13:54] <seb128> hum, so an autostart + a Xsession.d script for autologin cases
[13:54] <Keybuk> am currently playing with having a readahead pack for rcS
[13:54] <Keybuk> and a separate one for rc2+60s
[13:57] <Keybuk> this doesn't seem to be any faster than just having one large readahead pack for the entire boot
[13:58] <pitti> one large pack works reasonably well here, except that it blocks the boot for 20 secons very early on
[13:58] <pitti> so it's not good for the "bring up X ASAP" approach
[13:59] <Keybuk> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-2.png  - one large pack running in the background
[13:59] <Keybuk> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-2.png  - one large pack running in the foreground
[13:59] <Keybuk> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-8.png  - two packs in the foreground
[13:59] <Keybuk> err
[13:59] <Keybuk> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/boot-performance/sam-karmic-20090721-3.png  - one large pack running in the foreground
[14:01] <pitti> . o O { waah xkbcomp }
[14:02] <Keybuk> doesn't seem to be much in it between -2 and -3
[14:02] <seb128> pitti, what was the magic again to drop caching?
[14:03] <pitti> seb128: echo 3 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
[14:03] <seb128> pitti, danke
[14:22] <mdz> Keybuk, how big is the readahead data?
[14:25] <Keybuk> mdz: 1969 files, 73604KB, 2318 fragments  (HDD optimised)
[14:25] <Keybuk> mdz: 1977 files, 67963KB, 2320 fragments  (SSD optimised)
[14:25] <mdz> interesting, smaller than I might have guessed
[14:25] <Keybuk> this is using sreadahead rather than readahead-list
[14:26] <Keybuk> so the pack is the "set of files opened during boot that are still in the page cache by the end"
[14:26] <Keybuk> this may or may not mean it's self-limiting in size
[14:52] <rickspencer3_> Hi all
[14:52] <rickspencer3_> I forgot to send the reminder mail regarding the team meeting and activity reports :(
[14:52]  * rickspencer3_ notices that most people sent them anyway
[14:53] <seb128> hey rickspencer3_
[14:53] <pitti> hey rickspencer3_
[14:57] <rickspencer3_> hi guyses
[15:08] <Keybuk> pitti: do you run i386 or amd64?
[15:10] <pitti> Keybuk: amd64
[15:11] <Keybuk> pitti: ah, ok
[15:11] <Keybuk> you'd need to build a kernel to try my sreadahead stuff
[15:11] <pitti> Keybuk: I'll reinstall my box this evening or tomorrow morning
[15:12] <Keybuk> why reinstall?
[15:12] <pitti> I'm not much fussed about which CD I'll use
[15:12] <pitti> Keybuk: alpha-3 testing
[15:12] <pitti> I just do it from time to time
[15:12] <Keybuk> ahh
[15:12] <Keybuk> was actually after numbers from a not-recently-reinstalled box ;)
[15:12] <pitti> I have nice scripts to turn a virgin install into "my" workstation, so it's relatively painless
[15:12] <Keybuk> freshly installed is boring, because the files are all in order on the disk
[15:12] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, ok; this install is from jaunty RCish, I think
[15:13] <pitti> with files and packages moved and hacked all over the place
[15:13] <pitti> Keybuk: throw your kernel into a PPA?
[15:13] <Keybuk> pitti: don't have a source or changes for it
[15:13] <pitti> oh
[15:14] <vuntz> seb128: do you use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/compiz/enable-compiz or $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/compiz/disable-compiz? (wondering if this is something that is upstream)
[15:15] <seb128> vuntz, dunno, what are those?
[15:15] <vuntz> seb128: files to tell whether or not to use config (force a configuration for the user)
[15:16] <seb128> vuntz, ask mvo, I've no clue where those are stored and what value we use
[15:16] <vuntz> mvo_: hi :-)
[15:18] <didrocks> pitti: are you aware about any easy access to prefix or data_dir specified by the user to retrieve it in setup.py with distutils-extra?
[15:19] <pitti> didrocks: -EPARSE, I'm afraid
[15:19] <pitti> didrocks: there is --prefix (/usr vs. /usr/local) and --root (like $DESTDIR)
[15:19] <pitti> i. e. ./setup.py install --root=/tmp/x would install /tmp/x/usr/local/bin/
[15:20] <didrocks> pitti: and I have to parse the command line to retrieve this? distutils doesn't gave any automagic function available when it's imported?
[15:21] <pitti> didrocks: I'm afraid I still don't understand what you want to do
[15:22] <didrocks> pitti: I just want to know where data files will be install when calling ./setup.py install (with eventually, --prefix= --root=...)
[15:22] <didrocks> installed*
[15:23] <pitti> aah
[15:23] <pitti> didrocks: you need to do that in the 'install' command subclass
[15:23] <pitti> didrocks: look at auto.py, class install_auto, def run
[15:24] <pitti> self.root is the --root argument
[15:24] <didrocks> pitti: ok, I imagine there is the same with prefix and home :) Thanks a lot pitti
[15:25] <dobey> hrmm
[15:25] <pitti> didrocks: right, there should be similar properties
[15:25] <dobey> what would be the implications of disabling nautilus start-up by default?
[15:26] <mvo_> hi vuntz
[15:27] <mvo_> vuntz: we don't use this right now, but if its part of compiz-manager (the upstream script) than we will when someone updates the script :)
[15:28] <vuntz> mvo_: I think it's part of ccsm
[15:32] <vuntz> mvo_: simple-ccsm, actually
[15:35]  * hyperair scratches his head and wonders why root privileges are required in order to eject a dvd.
[15:38] <seb128> hyperair, devicekit bug
[15:39] <dobey> anyone want to see a really cool bug? set the gconf key /apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop to false in karmic :P
[15:39] <dobey> i'd recommend doing it in gconf-editor though, so you can toggle it back on easily
[15:39] <arand> dobey: window list spam, eh?
[15:40] <pitti> nautilus auto-exiting fighting with autostart .desktop file auto-respawning?
[15:40] <dobey> arand: apparently gnome-session keeps trying to restart it
[15:40] <dobey> pitti: i can't find an autostart file. looks like gnome-session is doing it directly
[15:43] <arand> Hello, I'm trying to push for an SRU in https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnumeric/+bug/316502 and I was wondering if I could get some help from here in making a debdiff?
[15:44] <hyperair> ah devicekit
[15:50] <pitti> didrocks: hm, your new branch changes the entire debian/control
[15:50] <pitti> didrocks: I deliberately didn't do that, since the user might make customizations
[15:51] <pitti> didrocks: if you really want that, you could just have quickly unlink debian/control before calling python-mkdebian (or we add a --force switch?)
[16:06] <didrocks> pitti: but you already override user depends custumization, no? And yes, I defintively need that for quickly as some values can be changed by the user in setup.py (like author not present the first time the user build a debian package)
[16:07] <didrocks> pitti: and I think that not having this kind of stuff in distutils, and so, having setup.py and debian/control not in sync is source of user frustration
[16:07] <pitti> didrocks: for newly added fields, that's no problem (long desc, author, etc.)
[16:07] <didrocks> so, the --force switch can be a solution :)
[16:07] <pitti> didrocks: ok, so I'm fine with --force
[16:07] <pitti> which is pretty much equivalent to rm -r debian/
[16:07] <pitti> :)
[16:08] <pitti> to regenerate all the files
[16:08] <didrocks> pitti: not really, as we keep the debian/changelog :)
[16:08] <pitti> ah, true
[16:08] <didrocks> pitti: do you want me to add the --force switch?
[16:09] <pitti> if you want, please go ahead
[16:09] <pitti> didrocks: I'm a bit busy with alpha-3 stuff
[16:09] <didrocks> pitti: ok, I will do it in a couple of hours
[16:09] <didrocks> I imagine, that's why I propose that to you :)
[16:09] <pitti> speaking of which, *nnnng* http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20090721.4/
[16:09] <pitti> how many RMs does it need to produce a working set of isos?
[16:09]  * pitti wonders what's broken this time
[16:11] <pitti> oh, *phew*, just mirror lag
[16:18] <pitti> Keybuk: FYI, I sub'ed you to dx-karmic-os-switcher, since it's not quite clear how the graphical OS selector will be put in between X and gdm startup, and how to make sure that it stays around long enough to be useful without stalling boot
[16:18] <pitti> Keybuk: (I'm worried that they plan to add a sleep 5 or so)
[16:20] <Keybuk> I still think the OS switcher should be an option in the gdm/user session shutdown dialogs
[16:33] <pitti> rickspencer3_: meeting now? or am I confused?
[16:33] <rickspencer3_> pitti: I *think* it's in 57 minutes from now
[16:33] <pitti> ah
[16:33] <rickspencer3_> asac: seb128: Riddell: etc...
[16:33] <seb128> pitti, you are confused
[16:33] <rickspencer3_> ^ ?
[16:33]  * rickspencer3_ wipes sweat from brow
[16:35] <asac> if we want we can meet now ;)
[16:35] <asac> i am ready
[16:50] <hyperair> hmm for some reason frets on fire appears to be having issues with pulseaudio.
[16:56] <mat_t> Keybuk: it should - that's still the plan (I think)
[16:56] <mat_t> Keybuk: it should be basically available at any stage (boot, gdm, user session)
[16:56] <Keybuk> mat_t: that means writing a separate OS selector implementation for each stage though
[16:56] <mat_t> Keybuk: how separate?
[16:56] <Keybuk> well, during boot you would been to write an implementation inside the splash screen
[16:56] <mat_t> Keybuk: (I'm not surprised btw)
[16:56] <Keybuk> then you'd need to write a separate implementation for when X is up but gdm hasn't started
[16:57] <Keybuk> and then you'll need yet another implementation for the gdm shutdown dialog and user session
[16:57] <mat_t> Keybuk: well, on boot it'll be running under X right
[16:57] <Keybuk> once X is up, yes
[16:58] <Keybuk> they might be checking filesystems, for example
[16:58] <mat_t> Keybuk: yeah, I didn't expect it to be easy :)
[16:58] <Keybuk> as long as there's a "no sleep 5" understanding ;)
[17:00]  * mat_t didn't get the "no sleep 5" bit... 
[17:01] <mat_t> Keybuk: btw, how can I tell visually when the X is up - when the mouse appears or when the usplash disappears?
[17:01] <Keybuk> mat_t: mouse appears
[17:02] <mat_t> I see, so now it's around 10 secs
[17:02] <mat_t> on my mini 9
[17:08] <Keybuk> yeah, getting there slowly
[17:16] <mat_t> :)
[17:16] <mat_t> pitti: got a sec?
[17:19] <rodrigo_> pedro_: going out now, but please poke me later or tomorrow for buying your books, I've completely forgotten about it :)
[17:20] <pedro_> rodrigo_, oh! i've forgot about it too, ok will ping you tomorrow ;-)
[17:21] <rodrigo_> ok
[17:23] <bryce> morning
[17:23] <kenvandine> hey bryce
[17:26] <pitti> mat_t: I meant, if there are normally two seconds between "X starts" and "gdm starts", you wouldn't have lots of time for showing the OS selector
[17:26] <pitti> and enlarging that period with sleeps is evil
[17:27] <mat_t> pitti: why sleeps?
[17:27] <pitti> since it's directly working against all the speedup work that Keybuk is doing
[17:27] <pitti> mat_t: otherwise it would be too fast?
[17:27] <pitti> mat_t: or is that compensated by the possibility of changing OS on shutdown or in gdm?
[17:27] <pitti> (that would be great)
[17:28] <mat_t> pitti: ok, so the idea is that the user would be able to invoke the os switcher during boot, but that would not stop the boot process. The OS switcher would be displayed independently of the gdm/desktop session
[17:29] <mat_t> pitti: in terms of slowing down, if you decide to reboot into another OS, you've interrupted the boot anyway. If you don't, it won't affect the boot at all (shouldn't)
[17:30] <Keybuk> ie. it's an always-on-top window?
[17:30] <pitti> mat_t: so if the OS selector during boot is just displayed 2 seconds, because you have a fast box (and/or Keybuk rocks), you can compensate by just changing in gdm's option menu or something?
[17:30] <rickspencer3_> team meeting time
[17:30]  * rickspencer3_ taps gavel
[17:30] <Keybuk> you see your desktop session (or gdm) underneath?
[17:30] <mat_t> pitti: and yes, ultimately the OS switcher should be available in gdm and desktop, too
[17:30]  * rickspencer3_ ahem
[17:30] <pitti> mat_t: thanks
[17:30]  * pitti STFU
[17:30]  * Riddell googles gavel
[17:30]  * seb128 is there
[17:30] <rickspencer3_> ArneGoetje: asac bryce kenvandine awe seb128 pitti Riddell
[17:30] <mat_t> pitti: we'll talk more tomorrow, thanks!
[17:31] <asac> good day
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> sorry to interrupt the conversation
[17:31] <tkamppeter> hi
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: feel free to hang out for our meeting
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> hi tkamppeter
[17:31] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: sure, pleasure!
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-21
[17:32] <rickspencer3_> we start with actions from the previous meeting
[17:32] <rickspencer3_> please see the wiki for status there
[17:32] <rickspencer3_> nothing to discuss, I think
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I will ask TheMuso about accessibility + empathy in the Eastern edition meeting
[17:33] <pitti> what was the a11y webkit result?
[17:33] <pitti> right
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I have an announcement about bluetooth
[17:33] <seb128> GNOME is still discussing the topic
[17:33] <seb128> (webkit)
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I arrange it so that we can all spend up to about $50 US on bluetooth equipment ...
[17:33] <seb128> discussion is active on d-d-l
[17:33] <asac> thx seb128
[17:33]  * rickspencer3_ sorry
[17:34] <rickspencer3_> go ahead
[17:34] <seb128> rickspencer3_, that was all ;-)
[17:34] <asac> seb128: can you add archive pointers to wiki?
[17:34] <asac> list archive
[17:34] <seb128> asac, will do when they reach consensus
[17:34] <rickspencer3_> I always manage that in the most awkward manner, don't I?
[17:34] <seb128> lol
[17:35]  * rickspencer3_ tries not to interrupt again
[17:35] <asac> rickspencer3_: good news. wonder how we can coordinate that we have different devices. maybe we should setup a wiki page with bt hardware owned by desktopers?
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> asac: great
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> idea
[17:35] <seb128> do we have a list of "common devices"?
[17:35] <seb128> ie things we should be testing
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> I wanted to say, don't use the subsidy unless you are willing to ensure that you get it working for Karmic!
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> seb128: good question, I don't know
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> I was going to suggest we all try to get "different" things
[17:36] <asac> i think for dell hardware we have superm1 ... so maybe thats covered
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> like if we all get the same headset, it won't be so useful
[17:36] <pitti> so I can test obex and GPRS tethering here, I don't have audio hw
[17:36]  * kenvandine will get bt headset
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> asac: would you be willing to set up the wiki page to track?
[17:37] <awe> i just bought a new headset this morning.  good timing i guess!  :)
[17:37] <asac> rickspencer3_: i will
[17:37] <Riddell> the getting it working part is probably quite hard in my case, I don't think KDE bluetooth is in a great state
[17:37] <asac> on this front i would like to push back the decision on what i default for a week.
[17:37] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: asac to set up wiki page to track bluetooth devices for desktop team
[17:37] <Riddell> but worth trying
[17:37] <rickspencer3_> Riddell: should we be helping with that?
[17:38] <rickspencer3_> I'm not sure on how much infrastructure is cross desktop
[17:38] <asac> i got side tracked by too many things this week; also i think we need to get latest gnome-bluetooth in the archive to do the final evaluation
[17:38] <rickspencer3_> asac: ack
[17:38]  * rickspencer3_ notes asac had a very full week
[17:38] <pitti> ah, so that could fix some of the gripes I mentinoed on the ML (hangs, etc)
[17:38] <asac> Riddell: could you find out about the current KDE state on bluetooth?
[17:39] <Riddell> rickspencer3_: needs some upstream love to get up to get it up to date with the current infrastructure, it would be nice if we did help but then there's a load of stuff that would be nice that we're already trying to find time to do
[17:39] <Riddell> asac: yes I should
[17:39] <asac> knowing that it doesnt work is better than not knowing that
[17:39] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: Riddell to report on current state of BT in Kubuntu Karmic
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> I suppose we should all try our devices in Kubuntu as well
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> ok, if you have questions about expensing the bluetooth gear, please let me know
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> move on?
[17:40]  * rickspencer3_ hands mic to kenvandine
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> partner update
[17:40] <kenvandine> partner update
[17:40] <pitti> nice choir
[17:41] <kenvandine> everyone can view the current u1 integration status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status
[17:41] <kenvandine> progressing
[17:41] <kenvandine> got more MIRs this week and more coming for next week
[17:41] <kenvandine> the new packages are trickling in
[17:41] <asac> ack. i saw my queue growing
[17:42] <kenvandine> firefox extension and desktopcouch should be in REVU by the end of the week
[17:42] <pitti> I currently have some stomachaid to fit them on the CDs
[17:42] <kenvandine> evo couch integration is in revu now
[17:42] <pitti> (later)
[17:42] <awe> kenvandine: do you know if the team plans on making symbolic links work in the karmic time frame?
[17:42]  * rickspencer3_ points quietly at the GIMP
[17:42] <kenvandine> awe, i do not know
[17:42] <kenvandine> got a bug #?
[17:42] <awe> no
[17:43] <kenvandine> ok, i can ask
[17:43] <pitti> please file one, though
[17:43] <rickspencer3_> U1 does not work with symlinks?
[17:43] <rickspencer3_> that explains a lot
[17:43] <kenvandine> yeah, i suspect there is one already
[17:43] <awe> me too, but i'll check
[17:43] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, not outside of the Ubuntu One dir
[17:43] <kenvandine> also
[17:43] <kenvandine> gtk-contact-picker has been moved out of scope for karmic
[17:44] <kenvandine> screen sharing might get post poned as well, not sure yet
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> ah
[17:44] <kenvandine> we should get that with telepathy anyway
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> so those can be reflected in your table next week
[17:44] <kenvandine> so it would just be the u1 integration that would get punted
[17:44] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, yes
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> sweet
[17:44] <kenvandine> DX update
[17:45] <kenvandine> fusa rework (SUS) will be ready to integrate at the sprint
[17:45] <kenvandine> so should be good times :)
[17:45] <pitti> "SUS"?
[17:45] <kenvandine> the replacement for fusa
[17:45] <rickspencer3_> slow user switcher?
[17:45] <kenvandine> not sure what it stands for :)
[17:45] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:46] <kenvandine>  Status-Users-Session
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> kenvandine: relative to Dx, I'd like to see some progress in making the GDM greeter *look* nicer
[17:46] <kenvandine> i guess the three things it controls
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> I'm seeing if I can get some resources for that
[17:46] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, yeah... i think there is some debate about that
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> oh?
[17:46] <kenvandine> well nobody is working on it yet
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> right, that's what I would like to fix, if possible
[17:46] <kenvandine> and i think there isn't agreement on how
[17:46] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience
[17:46] <kenvandine> like modify what is there
[17:46] <kenvandine> or write a new greeter
[17:47] <kenvandine> i think they are discussing it
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right, but that's functional
[17:47] <mat_t> rickspencer3_ I'm hoping to have a meeting with sabdfl next week to discuss
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> I'd at least like to see some "skinning", even if we can't make functional changes
[17:47] <mat_t> "skinning" is the plan minimum
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> but there may not be resources for that even, and we'll just live with the default for Karmic
[17:47] <pitti> rickspencer3_: not really functional, most of the functinoality there is already present
[17:47] <kenvandine> mat_t, good
[17:48] <pitti> except for the autologin configuration, which we committed to anyway
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> ok
[17:48] <kenvandine> that is all i have
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: rickspencer3 to update on gdm greeter skinning resources at next meeting
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> thanks kenvandine
[17:48] <Le-Chuck_ITA> Hi all, there's an ubuntu-specific bug in gnome-volume-control: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-media/+bug/400820
[17:49] <seb128> Le-Chuck_ITA, you are in the middle of a meeting there
[17:49] <Le-Chuck_ITA> sorry
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: no problems
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> feel free to hang out, we'll get back to you when done
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> :)
[17:49] <Le-Chuck_ITA> change the topic perhaps, bye and have fun :)
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> so where were we
[17:49] <seb128> Le-Chuck_ITA, we don't change the code so no reason for it to be ubuntu specific
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> right
[17:49]  * rickspencer3_ hands mic to Riddell
[17:49] <Riddell> Kubuntu Update
[17:50] <Riddell> -Alpha 3 currently blocked on a problem in Ubiquity, currently testing a fix
[17:50] <Riddell> -Social from the start now implemented, microblogging and opendesktop applet on desktop, kopete-facebook installed, still some touching up to make sure it doesn't get in people's way
[17:50] <Le-Chuck_ITA> seb128: do not want to break your meeting but read the bug and then eventually complain with the gnome developers who said it's ubuntu specific!
[17:50] <Riddell> -Kubuntu Netbook now has settings package and should see its first release with alpha 3
[17:50] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: seb128 please wait until after the meeting, we are done soon
[17:50] <rickspencer3_> thanks :)
[17:50] <Riddell> (although currently it's just the desktop with different font sizes, that'll change though)
[17:50] <Riddell> -New Kubuntu council elected
[17:51] <Riddell> -ayatana patches merged upstream and backported to our packages, notifications now shared between KDE and Gnome, result!
[17:51] <rickspencer3_> !
[17:51] <kenvandine> woot!
[17:51] <mat_t> nicely done!
[17:51] <pitti> congrats!
[17:52] <Riddell> and the freedesktop.org process seems to be making progress following GCDS (agateux's ayatana work highlighted that it wasn't currently working as it should)
[17:52] <Riddell> -Question: when is apport being turned on?  we have some experimental stuff and upstream are getting bug reports that would be better sent to us

[17:53] <rickspencer3_> Thanks Riddell
[17:53] <pitti> Riddell: apport> last night
[17:54] <Riddell> "fixed yesterday" always a good answer :)
[17:54] <bryce> pitti, oh apport has been off?  ah that explains a bit...
[17:54] <asac> hehe
[17:54] <pitti> bryce: it doesn't make much sense for the initial wave of merges, syncs, and upstream betas
[17:54] <pitti> stuff gets fixed faster than people can report/process/close/test
[17:54] <bryce> shucks here I thought I was making such headway against the bug influx for a change :-)
[17:54]  * rickspencer3_ has empathy and evo crashes to apport
[17:55] <pitti> but I think alpha-3 is a good cutting point
[17:55] <bryce> yeah makes sense
[17:55] <pitti> bryce: that was the idea :)
[17:55] <pitti> (I'm serious)
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> lol
[17:55] <seb128> no need to collect thousand of bugs which will be deprecated before we look at those
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> right
[17:55]  * bryce nods
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> pitti: seb128 that was a good idea
[17:56] <seb128> note that we do that every cycle ;-)
[17:56]  * rickspencer3_ takes note
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> learn a little bit every turn of the crank ;)
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> move on?
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> support bugs ....
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> this is just a quick think about when our support team escalates bugs to us
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> please note that the key thing they need is for us to respond quickly with the status
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> rather then necessarily fix the bug
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> note that the process is covered on the wiki
[17:57] <bryce> rickspencer3_, that's a good point but can you explain how that works for them?
[17:57] <pitti> on the discussion we agreed on them assigning to canonical-*-team, is it that?
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> please assign the bug to yourself, and ping me
[17:57]  * rickspencer3_ gets link
[17:58] <pitti> (and we review/assign to a person/comment and unassign)
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> sorry world, this is an internal link
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> http://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscelation
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> pitti: sure, that's fine
[17:58] <asac> https://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscalation is the right one
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> this is a reminder to do that
[17:59] <bryce> rickspencer3_, i.e. if it is a bug reported against jaunty, is it enough to let them know when it's fixed in karmic, or do we also owe a backport to fix the customer's machine?  (sometimes backporting is easy, sometimes it's a PITA)
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> and a reminder that the goal is to allow support to give the customer a status update asap
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> rather than fix the bug asap
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> bryce: just tell them the status first
[18:00] <rickspencer3_> they want to be responsive to the customer with information first
[18:00] <pitti> the primary idea of this process is to connect the right people and evaluate the status/cost/etc.
[18:00] <pitti> often, support cases are fine with a valid workaround, or even a "works for me" PPA package
[18:00] <pitti> but we had cases where important bugs were just ignored, since they weren't assigned, and we didn't know about them, etc.
[18:01] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right, and we recently had an opposite case, where a less important bug was escelated
[18:01] <pitti> bryce: so if you say that a fix is hard to backport (like, KMS fixes a machine), this should be said so in the bug
[18:01] <rickspencer3_> and the engineer, trying to do the right thing, invested hours in trying to fix the bug
[18:01] <bryce> is there a listing of bugs support is waiting for response on, or do we need to track those ourselves?
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> bryce: you should be contacted directly in irc by the QA team if a support bug is escelated to you
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> you don't have to pole
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> make sense?
[18:02] <bryce> rickspencer3_, right and that's working fine
[18:03] <pitti> bryce: no polling, please; it's the support/business team's responsibility to initiate the process
[18:03] <bryce> rickspencer3_, often though after the initial go around I don't hear back from them, but I know the bug's still open, so I never know if the workaround/status update was sufficient for their purposes, or if they want me to keep plugging away at doing a backport or whatever
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> after your initial reply, they will follow up with you if they need anything else
[18:04] <bryce> alright
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> that's why it's important to ensure that the bug is assigned
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> so that it can be *unassigned*
[18:04] <pitti> and has the right status
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> yes
[18:04] <pitti> i. e. "incomplete" or "wontfix" are quite clear on whose side the ball is
[18:05] <pitti> (for the stable task)
[18:05]  * rickspencer3_ hands mic to pitti
[18:06] <pitti> so, we have alpha-3 on Thursday
[18:06] <rickspencer3_> release stuff
[18:06] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus reflects our current status
[18:06] <pitti> looking fairly good so far
[18:06] <pitti> we managed to get the structural changes planned for alpha-3 all settled by last week
[18:06] <pitti> and the current CDs now look reasonable
[18:07] <pitti> my main issue with them is size
[18:07] <pitti> I spent some time fixing overflows, but they are still too big
[18:07] <pitti> so, any idea about downsizing appreciated
[18:07] <pitti> we currently have quite a lot of library/functionality duplication
[18:07] <seb128> documentation languagepacks?
[18:07] <pitti> the soyuz support for /usr/share/gnome/help is underway, but not done yet
[18:07] <pitti> (or, rather, the buildd changes)
[18:07] <rickspencer3_> pitti: didn't we decide this weeks ago?
[18:08] <rickspencer3_> move the GIMP off the disk if needed?
[18:08]  * rickspencer3_ ducks
[18:08] <pitti> we have stuff like xul vs. gtkhtml vs. xulrunner, or old vs. new policykit, etc.
[18:08] <pitti> rickspencer3_: next against the wall, but it's "just" 6 MB
[18:08] <pitti> we already dropped documentation to fit empathy and general growth
[18:08] <asac> pitti: xul vs. xulrunner?
[18:09] <pitti> gimp removal will immediately be consumed by erlang plus couch db
[18:09] <rickspencer3_> ouch
[18:09] <pitti> and we need to fit in kenvandine's huge list of new packages still
[18:09] <bryce> pitti, rickspencer3_:  You can take nv → nouveau off the planned plumbing changes.  we'll shoot for getting kms enabled in nouveau but I don't think that it'll be stable enough to have on as the default
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: oh, ok
[18:09] <kenvandine> pitti, yeah they really add up
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: done
[18:09] <bryce> pitti, I figure we should EITHER do nouveau+kms, or nouveau+by-default, not both.  And KMS seems more important
[18:09] <rickspencer3_> pitti: are you looking for a "permanent" solution, or just for the alpha?
[18:10] <asac> what is using gtkhtml on CD?
[18:10] <pitti> rickspencer3_: the alpha is fine
[18:10] <pitti> a more permanent solution
[18:10] <rickspencer3_> what about removing the games package for the alpha?
[18:10] <pitti> asac: primarily evolution so far, but fixing that isn't trivial (and certainly not the type of thing we do ourselves)
[18:10] <asac> oh right. evo. for a moment i thought it was not on CD ;)
[18:10] <pitti> and we still don't have a single langpack
[18:10]  * seb128 slaps asac
[18:11] <rickspencer3_> lol
[18:11] <seb128> pitti, expect clutter to maybe be added to the CD soon too
[18:11]  * rickspencer3_ groans
[18:11] <pitti> ..
[18:11] <asac> how much oversizing are we lookg at atm?
[18:11] <pitti> anyway, whenever you stumble about something, please tell me
[18:11] <seb128> drop openoffice?
[18:11]  * seb128 runs
[18:11] <pitti> asac: I managed to squeeze it < 700 MB for alpha-3
[18:12] <pitti> it's more of a longer-term problem
[18:12] <pitti> most of the OLS stuff didn't land for a3 yet
[18:12] <kenvandine> they will be small, but do add up
[18:12] <rickspencer3_> fewer games perhaps would saves some space?
[18:12] <pitti> for now I dropped bzr and sl-modem from ship, rebuilt perl against db4.7 (dropping db4.6), stuff like that
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3_: yeah, they are quite big
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell would need to refactor the packages quite a bit, right?
[18:13]  * crevette would suggest to shave gnome-games
[18:13] <asac> pitti: can you do another CD spin please? i think i communicated to the wrong person (steve) that ffox 3 was going to be uploaded today (which is done now)
[18:13] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, i think robert_ancell is already planning on that
[18:13] <pitti> asac: tomorrow morning's dailies will probably be "the" images
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, we were speaking about splitting gnome-games
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> kenvandine: right,but "planning" and "doing" aren't always the same
[18:13] <pitti> asac: live build currently running, but more for smoke testing
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, but that will win 1.5meg
[18:13] <asac> ok thats good enough
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, ie not a lot
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> only 1.5?
[18:14] <seb128> yes, games are 2d cards, etc games
[18:14] <pitti> 1.5 MB isn't to be sneezed at
[18:14] <seb128> we already splitted documentation
[18:14] <rickspencer3_> I think this might need some more focused thought
[18:14] <pitti> I guess we can't build empathy with gtkhtml or xul?
[18:14] <pitti> to drop webkit?
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, no
[18:14] <pitti> nothing else is using it, right?
[18:14] <rickspencer3_> pitti: how do you suggest we go about making this deciscion?
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, and GNOME will bring webkit in anyway
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, well if GNOME decide webkit is a11y ready it will be install by default
[18:15] <seb128> yelp, etc will use it
[18:15] <pitti> so we have one app using webkit, one app using gtkhtml, one app using xul
[18:15] <asac> seb128: which components besides devhelp and yelp?
[18:15] <seb128> if it's not we will not build empathy with it
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> perhaps a table with less important apps, and how much space they would save would be a good starting point
[18:15] <asac> seb128: err devhel pisnt on CD
[18:15] <mpt> bug 376744
[18:15] <pitti> asac: I'm not counting devhelp (not installed by default), but indeed, yelp is the 4th
[18:15] <seb128> asac, yelp and evolution for the rendering maybe
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> along with a sense of how much space we will need
[18:15] <pitti> rickspencer3_: for games? ubuntu-devel@ discussion?
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> not just games .. the whole problem
[18:16] <seb128> mpt, the bug is outdated there is an ongoing email discussion with pitti and robert_ancell
[18:16] <aboSamoor> I upgraded from jaunty to karmic, and I got a black screen instead of gnome login, any help ?
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> it seems like we can generate some ideas here, but the actual decision making process will need to me somewhat more systematic
[18:16] <pitti> rickspencer3_: ah; well, I wouldn't do that on a ML, too many people and too much bikeshedding
[18:16] <seb128> aboSamoor, try #ubuntu
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right
[18:16] <bryce> aboSamoor, --> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/
[18:16] <pitti> rickspencer3_: in fact, desktop team meeting seems like the right forum for this IMHO?
[18:16]  * kenvandine agrees with pitti
[18:16] <mpt> seb128, I don't see anything outdated about it, and it was reopened five days ago.
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> pitti: agreed, but I think we need some more structure before we decide
[18:17] <rickspencer3_> more documented facts
[18:17] <pitti> it's a well-known problem, discussed twice every cycle :)
[18:17] <seb128> mpt, it lacks argument about the discussion we had by email since
[18:17] <seb128> mpt, I will update it
[18:17] <mpt> great
[18:18] <pitti> s/firefox/epiphany+webkit/? :-)
[18:18]  * pitti ducks from asac
[18:18] <bryce> pitti, since IIRC windows comes with a couple games, it would seem prudent to also keep at least a couple games.  Solitaire and Mines.  The other games are fun but maybe not so interesting to a newb
[18:18] <asac> pitti: well, ephy+webkit would be nice to have at all
[18:18] <pitti> bryce: yes, I wouldn't like to kick them all
[18:18] <davmor2> pitti: issues with codec selector using rhythmbox it's trying to find gsteramer input-selector rather than the mp3 codec
[18:18] <asac> its not yet decided upstream even
[18:19] <pitti> davmor2: later, please (meeting)
[18:19] <pitti> ok, I'm done
[18:19] <asac> so most likely we end up with another self-made gecko port for epiphany
[18:19] <pitti> if something catches your eye in your daily work, please let meknow
[18:19] <seb128> asac, sudo apt-get install epiphany-webkit
[18:19]  * asac being pessimistic
[18:19] <pitti> but so far, big kudos to the team for a nice alpha-3 status
[18:20] <pitti> the biggest wart so far is "two mixer applets in the panel"
[18:20] <pitti> we had far worse
[18:21] <seb128> ;-)
[18:21]  * pitti hands mike back to rickspencer3_
[18:21] <rickspencer3_> ok
[18:21] <rickspencer3_> any other business?
[18:22] <rickspencer3_> One last thing ...
[18:22] <rickspencer3_> I was thinking about all the cool stuff in Karmic ...
[18:22] <tkamppeter> I have updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Halsectomy, the replacement for hal-cups-utils is under heavy developm,ent currently.
[18:22] <pitti> oh, wrt. cool stuff; please everybody check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/TechnicalOverview if I forgot something
[18:22] <tkamppeter> So probably alpha-4 will do Plug'n'Print via udev.
[18:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: \o/
[18:23] <rickspencer3_> yeah I was able to just down a bunch of stuff in like one minute, check wiki for this meeting
[18:23] <rickspencer3_> tkamppeter: great news
[18:24] <tkamppeter> I have also completed a script on the OpenPrinting server to auto-build driver packages. So in the Karmic age we will probably have auto download of binary driver packages.
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> neat
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> that's been a goal of yours for a while, I think
[18:24] <pitti> (do I hear a "we can drop some from the CDs" there?)
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> hehe
[18:25] <pitti> (although that's unrelated, we can still have them packaged)
[18:25] <Riddell> tkamppeter: will that mean I need to make changes to system-config-printer-kde?
[18:26] <tkamppeter> Riddell, I will soon upload a new system-config-printer, at that stage you have also to resync with the 1.1.x git to catch the new udev part.
[18:26] <Riddell> mm, ok
[18:27] <tkamppeter> Riddell, This part of s-c-p replaces the hal-cups-utils package then, so s-c-p will obsolete out hal-cups-utils (we have to go through the bugs to see what goes away and what goes to s-c-p).
[18:28] <asac> pitti: removed me from jabber?
[18:28] <tkamppeter> Riddell: Stop, can be that there is nothing to do for you. The udev stuff is all non-GUI background code, so it goes into system-config-printer-common.
[18:29] <pitti> asac: sorry, empathy bug
[18:29] <asac> pitti: ah ok ;) ... i will rerequest
[18:29] <tkamppeter> Riddell: There I put it in and it is simply there, also for you.
[18:29] <Riddell> tkamppeter: ok we'll see what breaks, I hope to find a bit of time for s-c-p-k love anyway
[18:29] <pitti> asac: moving between groups copies instead of moves, and deleting the copy deletes the other one as well
[18:30] <kenvandine> hehe... sub-optimal :)
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> oops
[18:30] <asac> pitti: yeah. but seems it auto authorized at least
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> any other business?
[18:30] <seb128> no
[18:30] <kenvandine> nope
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> thanks to pitti for organizing alpha3 !!
[18:30] <asac> thanks!
[18:30] <tkamppeter> Riddell: Tim is working a lot on the GUI, too, so you should try to catch up with him (I did not look into the newest GUI changes of 1.1.x yet).
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> also, Karmic is already a great release, I can't wait until we release this!
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> it's going to be epic
[18:31] <pitti> rickspencer3_: I'm just next in the RM food chain :/
[18:31]  * rickspencer3_ taps gavel
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> thanks all!
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> you guys are really rocking this release
[18:31] <seb128> thanks!
[18:31] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[18:32] <pitti> thanks all
[18:32] <pitti> 1 h 0 mindesktop team meeting
[18:32] <pitti> wow, punctuality!
[18:32] <seb128> btw I expect the GNOME move to pulseaudio will be an issue again this cycle
[18:32] <pitti> (and wow broken whitespace copy&pate)
[18:33] <bryce> thanks
[18:33] <rickspencer3_> seb128: really? seems to be improving for me
[18:33] <ArneGoetje> pitti: we could replace ttf-arphic-uming with ttf-wqy-zenhei on the CD
[18:33] <pitti> ArneGoetje: nice, what would that break?
[18:33] <seb128> rickspencer3_, the capplet still doesn't allow to do some things
[18:34] <pitti> would give us 2.1 MB
[18:35] <pitti> ArneGoetje: is that just a matter of changing seeds, or does that need any fontconfig voodoo?
[18:35] <seb128> rickspencer3_, and what Le-Chuck_ITA was complaining about before is that skype is not working when using pulseaudio for some people appareantly
[18:35] <Le-Chuck_ITA> I will now retry
[18:35] <davmor2> pitti: I gotta shoot out for a bit.  If you fire up rhythmbox and then try any of the radio stations or magnatune or last.fm the codec searcher looks for input-selector rather than the codec required.  I'll throw a bug together after but it's been confirmed by fader_ and sbeattie on #u-testing
[18:35] <pitti> davmor2: ah, thanks for the bug
[18:36] <ArneGoetje> pitti: ttf-wqy-zenhei is more complete than ttf-arphic-uming, but lacks Hong Kong characters. WQY Zenhei also fits better to sans-serif.
[18:36] <rickspencer3_> seb128: is Skype getting rebuilt?
[18:36] <ArneGoetje> pitti: should be only seeds and live-cd, but need to test
[18:37] <rickspencer3_> I noticed that when I have a flash movie playing in FF, nothing else plays sound
[18:37] <ArneGoetje> pitti: and update language-support-fonts-zh
[18:37] <pitti> ArneGoetje: ah, to pull in -uming?
[18:38]  * Le-Chuck_ITA is going to reboot, test latest pulseaudio+skype, and report back
[18:38] <ArneGoetje> pitti: yes. Then wqy-zenhei will be the default Chinese font and uming an extra font from the archive
[18:38] <pitti> nice
[18:38] <pitti> ArneGoetje: could you test that, or did you already and foudn it working?
[18:39] <seb128> rickspencer3_, skype? it's closed source no?
[18:39] <ArneGoetje> pitti: need to test... unfortunately my virtualbox is not working... :( need to make a fresh install on a USB stick...
[18:39] <rickspencer3_> seb128: right ... so are users using a binary from Jaunty, and finding it doesn'
[18:39] <rickspencer3_> t work?
[18:39] <pitti> ArneGoetje: ah, language-support-fonts-zh already pulls in both, which is fine, I think
[18:39] <pitti> ArneGoetje: ok, let's do it post-a3 then
[18:40] <ArneGoetje> pitti: yup
[18:40] <pitti> ArneGoetje: thanks!
[18:40] <awe> rickspencer3_: skype talks directly to ALSA
[18:40] <seb128> rickspencer3_, I've no clue about it, Le-Chuck_ITA was complained about it not working when using pulseaudio
[18:40] <pitti> awe: i. e. to pulse's alsa emulation then, I guess?
[18:40] <awe> rickspencer3_: yea
[18:41] <pitti> I'm off for some dinner and fresh air
[18:41] <awe> pitti: i remember at uds that it was mentioned that skype abuses the alsa api
[18:41] <pitti> see you around tomorrow, or late night
[18:41] <seb128> me too, dinner
[18:41] <pitti> awe: right, I remember
[18:41] <seb128> pitti, interesting nautilus profiling, we can chat about it tomorrow
[18:41] <pitti> dtchen's "why sound is broken" talk
[18:41] <awe> bingo
[18:41] <seb128> 8 seconds on a 20s start are due to brasero and totem options
[18:41] <pitti> seb128: "nautilus profiling"?
[18:41] <pitti> ah, that
[18:42] <pitti> seb128: right, TTYL, enjoy dinner!
[18:42] <rickspencer3_> seb128: cool
[18:43] <seb128> dinner time, bbl
[18:43] <rickspencer3_> bye bye
[18:43] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: did you have a chance to peep at the boot exp/os switcher spec?
[18:44] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: yes
[18:44] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: looks like it's a potential artery clogger
[18:44] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: does the DX team have resources dedicated to it?
[18:45] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: MacSlow probably
[18:46] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: what about the greeter, though?
[18:46] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: well, exactly - it needs skinning *at least*
[18:46]  * kenvandine suspect that would be MacSlow
[18:46] <mat_t> + the ability to populate random avatars for newly created users
[18:46] <rickspencer3_> right, but I didn't see anything about that in spec (not that I read it that carefully)
[18:47] <mat_t> :)
[18:47] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: that sounds complex
[18:47] <mat_t> yes, we need to discuss with sabdfl first
[18:47] <rickspencer3_> what if we get no functional changes, is it possible to make it *look* better
[18:47] <rickspencer3_> ?
[18:47] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: we have a folder with avatars in the system already
[18:47] <mat_t> pitti said it should be doable
[18:48] <mat_t> usr/share/pixmaps/faces
[18:48] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: that's not my question
[18:48] <rickspencer3_> if we get no functional changes, do you think you can provide a skin that would make it look better?
[18:49] <rickspencer3_> or are the form and function too tightly bound?
[18:49] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: seb128: it seems the presence of pulseaudio also impacts jackd applications e.g. ardour
[18:49] <mat_t> sorry, was referring to the earlier question
[18:49] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: hmm
[18:49] <mat_t> yes, we can have the designs ready before the Dublin sprint
[18:49] <rickspencer3_> ardour works for me so long as I start it before anything else that uses pulse
[18:49] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: good, thanks
[18:50] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: perhaps this is not the place to talk about it, but this is very bad. I mean: gnome is currently aiming at replacing the "macos experience"
[18:50] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: right
[18:50] <Le-Chuck_ITA> and for that we need cool programs such as ardour
[18:51] <rickspencer3_> pulse audio has a lot of promise for the future, but is under development ...
[18:51] <rickspencer3_> and exposes lots of bugs and other problems in drivers, applications, etc...
[18:51] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: yes but how is the average karmic user supposed to use ardour?
[18:52] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: the work around for now is to close any firefox windows running flash, or other apps that are using sound, .. and then star ardour
[18:53] <rickspencer3_> but the community needs to continue to fix bugs in the stack until everything works perfectly ... this will take some time, but we will get htere
[18:53] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: I did that right now and does not work
[18:53] <rickspencer3_> hmm
[18:53] <rickspencer3_> so Jack doesn't start for  you?
[18:53] <rickspencer3_> I would suggest:
[18:53] <Le-Chuck_ITA> "the playback device "hw:0" is already in use."
[18:53] <rickspencer3_> 1. hopping into #ubuntu for some support
[18:54] <rickspencer3_> 2. making sure there is a bug logged, or log a new one if necessary using ubuntu-bug
[18:54] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: forget about the support I can disassemble my ubuntu piecewise, and can certainly remove pulseaudio
[18:54] <Le-Chuck_ITA> 2 is ok
[18:54] <rickspencer3_> we don't really want to remove pulse audio, so much as making sure that it works as well as possible for release in October
[18:55] <rickspencer3_> so if you figure out a solution the problem, let TheMuso know
[18:55] <rickspencer3_> even if you just figure out the problem, and not the solution ;)
[18:55] <Le-Chuck_ITA> before reporting the bug I want to find a solution, just a question do you know how are the alsa devices called, for using fuser?
[18:55] <rickspencer3_> I don't know
[18:55] <rickspencer3_> I know very little about the sound stack
[18:56] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso is based in Syndey ... but he'll be a good person to track down to discuss with
[18:56] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA:  thanks for helping us with this!
[18:57] <awe> rickspencer3_, Le-Chuck_ITA: at UDS dtchen talked about pulseaudio being the solution for consumer desktop, and jackd being the solution for pro audio type setups.  It doesn't sound to me like they're going to play well together in the short term
[18:57] <rickspencer3_> awe: true, but it should be possible to make them work together
[18:57] <awe> rickspencer3_: not too sure about that...
[18:57] <rickspencer3_> or not *together* at the same time, so much as together on teh same computer
[18:58] <awe> rickspencer3_: correct
[18:58] <rickspencer3_> like, I should be able to switch between them (and in fact I can)
[18:58] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: thank you for your patience
[18:58] <Le-Chuck_ITA> awe it's not my fault if the good music application use jack and ordinary people (e.g. mac users) also want to record music with their laptops just for fun
[18:59] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: i agree 100%
[18:59] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: keep chipping away it, we'll make it work!
[18:59] <rickspencer3_> sooner or later
[18:59] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: you're on Karmic, right?
[18:59] <rickspencer3_> I've been assuming you've been talking about Karmic and not Jaunty
[18:59] <Le-Chuck_ITA> awe but pulse can do that: it should just leave the device free for others, either on user's request or with some automagicality. Esound did that when alsa was just a buggy bad dream
[19:00] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: of course
[19:00] <rickspencer3_> phew
[19:01] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: np, please let me know if there's anything your guys are missing/something isn't clear/etc. I'll keep you posted anyway
[19:01] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: as far as i know, pulse wants to own *all* of the audio on the system.  it also configures a plugin so that native ALSA calls get re-routed to pulse
[19:01] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: unfortunately, i haven't played around with ardour in a long time, so i'm not that familiar with jack
[19:01] <Le-Chuck_ITA> that's nice but all unix applications can call close(2) :)
[19:02] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: yea, but if you shutdown pulse, you lose system sounds, flash, etc...
[19:02] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: i don't think pulse was designed to turn on/off
[19:02] <Le-Chuck_ITA> that's because jack owns the hardware. That's correct because it needs realtime priority on it
[19:02] <Le-Chuck_ITA> so no surprise that you can't hear flash while recording your guitar
[19:03] <awe> Le-Chuck_ITA: you might want to check with folks on #ubuntu-studio
[19:03] <Le-Chuck_ITA> yes I certainly will thanks for the suggestion
[19:03] <Le-Chuck_ITA> I had forgotten about them
[19:03] <awe> np
[19:04] <Le-Chuck_ITA> ok thanks and bye.
[20:33] <chrisccoulson> hey seb128
[20:33] <chrisccoulson> you had a good day today?
[20:33] <seb128> hello chrisccoulson
[20:34] <seb128> yes, what about you and your middle of the night waking up today?
[20:34] <chrisccoulson> i was very tired this morning. and i ended up working until 6pm too
[20:34] <seb128> urg
[20:35] <chrisccoulson> i have to do it all again on thursday too. i might try and get friday off work though ;)
[20:35] <seb128> that would be deserved with the days you are having
[20:36] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i hope so. i'll sleep well tonight anyway!
[20:36] <pitti> good night everyone!
[20:36] <seb128> 'night pitti
[20:36] <chrisccoulson> good night pitti
[20:36] <pitti> some CD testing still and then bedtime
[20:36] <pitti> burned the midnight oil too long yesterday, tired :(
[20:37] <seb128> pitti, same here, need to get some sleep too
[20:38] <seb128> pitti, I don't agree with the gdm changes but we can discuss that tomorrow
[20:38] <seb128> ie the suggests should be recommends
[20:40] <chrisccoulson> i see main is frozen now. no need for me to rush on the g-s-d update then ;)
[20:40] <seb128> chrisccoulson, soft freeze but right
[20:41] <chrisccoulson> i've pretty much done it, but i had to get some sleep in the end last night
[20:41] <chrisccoulson> and i've been removed from civilisation today, so no chance for me to do anything useful ;)
[21:09] <Le-Chuck_ITA> rickspencer3_: where would you report the bug that ardour can not be used in the default desktop? I would really like this to be requirement-driven, that is "I want to run ardour in a fresh ubuntu installation", rather than hunting for who is the culprit
[21:09] <Le-Chuck_ITA> perhaps pulseaudio in both cases?
[22:42] <davmor2> okay so what's the name of the easy codec installer?
[23:38] <TheMuso> Good morning.
[23:55] <robert_ancell> TheMuso, hey
[23:55] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3_, hi
[23:55] <TheMuso> Hey rickspencer3_.
[23:55] <TheMuso> robert_ancell: Looks like you're going to have quite a mild day down there today. :)
[23:55] <rickspencer3_> hi guyses
[23:55] <robert_ancell> TheMuso, is it rough out west?
[23:56] <TheMuso> Its rather windy, and very mild.