=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-bbl
=== Ursinha-bbl is now known as Ursinha
=== noodles775 is now known as noodles-afk
=== salgado-afk is now known as salgado
=== noodles-afk is now known as noodles
MootBotMeeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.15:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:00
barryhello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting.  who's here today?15:00
barryjtv, intellectronica ping15:02
jtvbarry: pong15:02
barrycprov, BjornT_ sinzui ping15:02
barryrockstar: ping15:03
barrygmb: ping15:03
barry[TOPIC] agenda15:03
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda15:03
barry * Roll call15:03
barry * bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry15:03
barry * Action items15:03
barry * Mentoring update15:03
barry * deryck graduates15:03
barry * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry15:03
barry * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)15:03
barry 15:04
barry[TOPIC] bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry15:04
barryso i will not be at these meetings for the next two weeks.  bac will chair them in my absence15:04
barrybac: thanks!15:04
barry[TOPIC]  * Action items15:04
MootBotNew Topic:   * Action items15:04
barry * deryck to update js wiki page with recommendations on loading js files in devmode only15:05
deryckdid it yesterday. :)15:05
barryderyck: awesome, thanks15:05
barry * gmb to update style guides to clarify that `reST` is to be used in doctests, with existing pages to be converted at coder's discretion15:05
barryfantastic!  can we keep this momentum going?15:06
gmbThough I'm going to reword it to make the second part a bit more explicity.15:06
* gmb has a new hobby - adjectifying adjectives.15:06
barry * flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki about avoiding permission explosions15:06
barryoops, looks like we're missing flacoste and gary15:07
bigjoolsautofail, he's not here15:07
marsbarry, flacoste is on vacation this week15:07
barryah thx15:07
marsand gary is at OSCON15:07
bacflacoste did add that page15:07
barrybac: super15:07
barry[TOPIC] mentoring updates15:07
bacand, it turns out, the example he cited of permission explosion was actually necessary...15:07
MootBotNew Topic:  mentoring updates15:07
barrybac: oh!  did he talk about that in the wiki?15:08
bacno.  the lesson still stands...15:08
barryso.  everyone, please congratulate deryck on his graduation to full-fledged reviewership!15:09
* bigjools hi-5s deryck15:09
* deryck hi-5s bigjools back15:09
barryderyck: i heard glowing reports of your reviews.  i think you graduated in record time.  great job! :)15:09
deryckbarry, I feel so grown up now. :)15:09
barryand thanks gmb for your mentoring15:09
noodlesCongrats deryck!15:10
deryckyes gmb rocks as a mentor15:10
* gmb applauds15:10
gmbderyck: Only when the student doesn't actually need all that much mentoring :)15:10
barryderyck: remember that you can now switch ocr days if you want.  just ping me in email or pvtmsg to work out any day changes15:10
deryckbarry, ok, will do.  I'm flexible about that and happy to do whatever day is best for others.15:10
intellectronicacongratulations deryck!!!15:11
barryone other quick note: rockstar is out tomorrow, so i will be switching my ocr this week from friday to thursday so that i can mentor leonardr15:11
barryany other mentoring issues today?15:12
barrymoving on then15:12
barry[TOPIC]  * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry15:12
MootBotNew Topic:   * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry15:12
barryso, in __all__ and a few other places, we want lines to be sorted15:13
barrywe are currently inconsistent about this.  so i'd like to hear opinions15:13
* henninge wonders if we are an insensitive bunch ...15:14
* jtv feels particularly insensitive15:14
intellectronicaallenap: what does uca stand for?15:14
jtvUnicode Collation Algorithm?15:14
adeuringthe nice thing about case-sensitive sorting is the emacs helper we have15:14
allenapjtv: Yep.15:14
noodlesBy insensitive, do we mean: from blah import Apples, apple, Banana, banana15:14
barryadeuring: agreed15:14
adeuring...for sorting imports15:14
allenapI know next to nothing about it though! :)15:14
bacadeuring: yes.15:14
barryalso M-x sort-lines is case sensitive by default :)15:15
intellectronicanoodles: that's already theology, but yes, i guess caps first makes sense15:15
jtvallenap: don't need to, it's mostly about nasty stuff like I/i with/without dots and weird orders of reading a string.15:15
allenapjtv: I didn't realise at first that we were talking just about module imports and the like. Doh.15:15
allenapECU - Emacs Collation Algorithm.15:16
barryso, am i alone in wanting case sensitive sorting? ;)15:16
jtvI still prefer insensitive... is emacs being sensitive because it just is, or because people are running it in C locale?15:16
adeuringbarry: me too ;)15:17
barryjtv: it's just case sensitive by default.  you have to (setq sort-fold-case t) to make it otherwise15:17
baci'm for sensitive but mainly due to the tools...15:17
barrythis is one place i /would/ like to be consistent so we don't end up in line sorting churn15:18
BjornT_bac: !sort in vim is case insensitive15:18
barryBjornT_: is this going to be an emacs vs vim fight? :)15:18
jtvI've been doing insensitive...  for me converting what you already have is usually more important than Making a Decision.15:18
bacBjornT_: i should have said "my tools" but let's not go there.15:18
allenapSensitive, so classes get sorted separately from functions.15:18
barryallenap: oh.  nice point!15:19
cprovallenap: that's a good point.15:19
allenapFinally, I say something that makes sense. Phew.15:19
intellectronicatools aside, anything but case-insensitive is harder for humans to work with. we should optimize for that15:19
barryintellectronica: python is case sensitive :)15:19
abentleyallenap: But just in the context of imports and __all__, not in the body of the file?15:19
barryabentley: gawd no15:20
allenapabentley: Yeah, that's true. I tend to like putting functions at the top.15:20
noodlesbarry: but you are not a python interpreter ;)15:20
barrynoodles: you're sure about that?15:20
bigjoolsbarry: start a vote so we can move on!15:20
barrybigjools: fantastic idea15:21
allenapbarry can already run the python 4.0 bytecode.15:21
sinzuiI wish I could find this discussion from two years ago. This is not the first time we have discussed this15:21
barry#startvote sort __all__ and similar case insensitive = -1, case sensitive = +115:21
jtvguys, no Turing tests here please15:21
bigjoolsyeah I have deja vu15:21
barryhang on folks!15:21
MootBotPlease vote on: .15:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot15:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #launchpad-meeting15:22
barryokay, now!15:22
MootBot+1 received from allenap. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBot+1 received from gmb. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot-1 received from intellectronica. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBot+1 received from barry. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot+1 received from cprov. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 315:22
MootBot-1 received from BjornT_. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot+1 received from bac. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 315:22
MootBot-1 received from noodles. 5 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot-1 received from sinzui. 5 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBotAbstention received from jtv. 5 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBot+1 received from abentley. 6 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot-1 received from bigjools. 6 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBot+1 received from adeuring. 7 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 215:22
MootBot-1 received from salgado_. 7 for, 6 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
MootBot-1 received from henninge. 7 for, 7 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 015:22
MootBot+1 received from deryck. 8 for, 7 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 115:22
bigjoolsjtv you meanie15:22
* barry is on the edge of his seat!15:22
gmbThis is the tensest vote evar.15:22
sinzuiflacoste is a vim users and a human being: he would vote -115:22
bigjoolsagh another fence-sitter!15:22
jtvbigjools: I _honestly_ _don't_ _care_15:22
barryyeah, but gary would definitely vote +1 <wink>15:23
gmbI'm a vim user and a human being... I vote +115:23
sinzuikiko is also a vim user, he will vote -115:23
gmbWell, I'm a vim user...15:23
sinzuigmb: you have issues. I don't think we need to bring them up now.15:23
jtvAnd I still say what we decide here doesn't matter that much unless we clean up what we already have.15:23
bigjoolsabentley: you already voted +1!15:23
bigjoolsI prefer to use an editor, not an OS15:24
* bigjools hides15:24
abentleybigjools: Yes, but the vote was unspecified, so I assumed we were voting for insensitive.15:24
barryabentley: mootbot is stricter than the florida election committee15:24
allenapvim is an OS. A DOS-era OS.15:24
intellectronicaaha, i abentley changed his vote that changes the picture15:24
* allenap ducks15:24
barrywell, don't forget asiapac has to weigh in15:24
bigjoolssince it's so close, I vote we leave it *random*15:25
barrybigjools: perfect!15:25
bacjml, mwh will definitely +115:25
allenapbigjools: +1, and if it's at least sorted one way or the other, don't change it.15:25
barrybac: yeah, i think so15:25
bigjoolsyep, on reflection I think this is a pointless debate15:25
intellectronicabigjools: it's not. if we could avoid the editor wars and make a decision it would be good to have a standard on that15:26
jtvWhat's already there generally overrules what is decided somewhere, and I don't think this is worth a cleanup effort.15:26
barrywe're about evenly divided anyway.  i'll consult with asiapac and see where we stand, then make an announcement later today15:26
bigjoolsintellectronica: in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important IMO15:26
sinzuiIf only barry had thought to include his editor's behaviour into PEP815:26
=== salgado_ is now known as salgado
* barry looks around for the time machine keys15:27
barryanyway.  that's all i have on my list, so now...15:27
barry[TOPIC] peanut gallery15:27
MootBotVote is in progress. Finishing now.15:27
MootBotFinal result is 8 for, 7 against. 1 abstained. Total: 115:27
MootBotNew Topic:  peanut gallery15:27
sinzuiI have a sonic screw driver in my hand roght now15:27
barryany topics you might have that are not on the agenda?15:27
mars+1 for Doctor Who references15:27
jtvsinzui: pour me one too please15:27
intellectronicadid we ever decide how to get new contributors in?15:27
* sinzui really does have a sonic screwdriver15:28
intellectronicado they do normal reviews?15:28
intellectronicaare we going to put something in place to guide them through the development process, pre-imp-->landing ?15:28
barryintellectronica: yes, i think so, with a dedicated shepherd to help them through the process.15:28
barryintellectronica: i will write up a proposal for this15:28
barry[ACTION] barry to write a proposal about guiding new outside contributors15:29
MootBotACTION received:  barry to write a proposal about guiding new outside contributors15:29
intellectronicaso the current recommendation, if anyone wants to start working on lp branches is to find a mentor who will guide them through the process?15:29
intellectronicai think that's a good way to do this15:29
sinzuiI think our current process of hack on code for 3 months, then being mentat training will work fine15:29
bigjoolsbarry: how much more info than the existing wiki page do you plan on adding?15:29
adeuringi think if somebody just sends a little bug fix, but clearly says that he sodes not want to get closer invloved, we should not require the regular proceure15:29
jtvLet's not re-use "mentor" here...15:30
intellectronicasinzui: oh, i'm not talking about becoming reviewers, but about getting branches in15:30
intellectronicawe can worry about that later15:30
barrysinzui: agreed15:30
sinzuiintellectronica: my bad15:30
barrybigjools: i don't know i have to review what we've got ;)15:30
barryjtv: right, "shepherd" is what i've been using, but maybe not a great term15:30
abentleyWhat about this policy that we're not supposed to put procedures on the dev wiki?  I think it would make a lot of sense to put all the procedures we can on the dev wiki.15:30
barryabentley: this is process that directly involves the community now, so definitely dev wiki15:31
intellectronicai think it would be good to emphasize the importance of getting a mentor before starting the work, but other than that it looks perfect15:31
barrybigjools: thanks, i'll review that15:31
gmbDidn't we rip out hte mentorship code for bugs? Shame...15:31
adeuringhow do we know if somebody signed the contributor's agreement?15:32
barryadeuring: and once they sign it, can they land branches into pqm directly?15:32
intellectronicawe could add everyone who did to a team when they send it15:33
gmbbarry: That would be dangerous.15:33
gmbpotentially, anyway.15:33
barrygmb: well, signing it is a necessary but not sufficient condition!15:33
adeuringbarry: we're testing via EC2, so I think one of us needs to do that.15:33
gmbbarry: Okay, agreed.15:34
barryadeuring: meaning, our outside contributors can't run through ec2?  i guess there's the little matter of cost15:34
jtvbarry: just remembered the term I had in mind: "sponsor."15:34
adeuringbarry: yes, that's what I meant15:34
bigjoolsmake check *cough*15:34
gmbjtv: +115:34
noodles+1 for sponsor15:34
gmbbigjools: make computer_melt15:35
barryjtv: nice15:35
bigjoolsgmb: speak for yourself!15:35
intellectronicai think mentor is better because it communicates that you will get help from the person through the entire process15:35
sinzuiadeuring: The CoC code is generic. We just assume it is The ubuntu code co conduct in the UI. We will update the CoC UI to support mutilple signings15:35
intellectronicai think that's very important because i worry that people will come, out of the blue, with branches they want merged, and will be dissapointed when we have to reject them for whatever reason15:36
barrylet's take further discussions of this to the new public mailing list, and i will take the action item to collect feedback and update wiki pages15:36
barryintellectronica: we need to triage branches early.  people may submit things we won't ever care about (e.g. convert all lp code to perl :).  we should let them know this early in the process so they don't waste their time15:37
jtvintellectronica: a sponsor is also supposed to go to bat for you.  But we've already had confusion over this, might as well keep separate terms.15:37
barryintellectronica: the beauty of course, is that we're free software now15:37
intellectronicabarry: exactly15:37
barrycool.  7 minutes left.  anything more on this or any other topic?15:38
jtvceterum censeo carthaginem esse delendam15:39
barryi believe we are done then15:39
MootBotMeeting finished at 09:39.15:39
barrythanks everyone!15:39
jtvthanks barry, you evil emacs user!15:39
bacthanks barry15:40
barryjtv: i am now doing irc in emacs too :)15:40
intellectronicathanks barry15:40
jtvemacs is an os... vim was written by someone who already had a nice one15:40
bigjoolsbarry: irc in emacs?  you sick puppy!15:41
barryjtv: what's an os?  oh, it's all that extra crap that slows down emacs?15:42
bigjoolschuckle :)15:42
jtvbarry: sure, blame some other piece of software...  !15:42
barryjtv: let me count the ways... :)15:43
jtvbarry: at least that extra crap doesn't usually use a pointer's high byte to store lisp bits!15:43
* jtv is enjoying this15:43
barryjtv: ouch15:43
barryjtv: what are you, a parenthesist?15:44
jtvbarry: I've got nothing against parentheses...15:44
jtv...in reasonable numbers.15:44
=== salgado is now known as salgado-lunch
=== ursula_ is now known as Ursinha
=== joey is now known as launchpad
=== launchpad is now known as Rinchen
=== Rinchen is now known as joey
=== noodles is now known as noodles775
=== salgado-lunch is now known as salgado
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=== salgado is now known as salgado-afk
thumperjml: tellytubbies23:29
* thumper pictures jml in a yellow fuzz suit23:30
MootBotMeeting started at 17:30. The chair is barry.23:30
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]23:30
jmlthumper, I was actually singing the Bob Dylan song that features in the Big Lebowski23:30
barryjml, thumper, mwhudson howdy23:30
jmlbarry, hi23:30
barryjml: i am loving erc :)23:30
barryemacs irc client23:31
jmlbarry, :(23:31
barryjml: no.  :)23:31
jmlbarry, last time I used erc, I accidentally ended up editing other people's nicks.23:31
jmlwhen I wasn't blocked on network io23:32
barryi hook it up to bip so it's fast23:32
barryand isn't hampered by canonical's ssl craziness23:32
barryquick update and then topics?23:32
barrysummary from ameu...23:33
barryderyck graduates23:33
barryi have an action item to start a discussion about sponsoring contributions from the community23:33
barryand we had a discussion and vote about __all__, etc, sorting, vis case sensitive or insensitive23:33
barryon the latter, without knowing the results of this morning's vote, what say ye?23:34
jmlslow news week, eh?23:34
jmlbarry, I was told insensitive in the past.23:34
jmlbarry, and so that's what I've been doing23:34
barryjml: yes, but what do you /really/ want :)23:34
jmlbarry, but I don't have a strong feeling on the matter23:34
jmlbarry, as long as it's consistent.23:35
barryjml: agreed.  we don't currently have consistency23:35
* jml would much rather have from foo import (bar,\nbaz,\n) than ordering.23:35
thumper+1 on consistency23:35
barryjml, thumper, mwhudson so if you had to vote, which would it be?23:35
jmlbarry, so in that case, I default to everyone else being consistent with what I already do :P23:35
thumperjml: is this alphabetical case sensitivity of imports?23:36
barryjml: in __all__'s do you use M-x sort-lines?23:36
jmlbut I might change my vote for a barrel of salted pork.23:36
thumpersorry, barry not jml23:36
jmlthumper, yeah.23:36
barrythumper: yes23:36
jmlbarry, umm... no, I think I manually edit.23:36
* jml votes [A, a, B, b, ...]23:36
barryjml: ah23:36
thumperbarry: I've not been personally consistent23:36
barryjml: that's case insensitive then23:36
jmlbarry, yes23:37
thumperbarry: not really23:37
thumperwhat about [DEF, dab] ?23:37
thumpercapitals first or real insensitive?23:37
jmlthumper, that's case sensitive23:37
jmlthumper, [A, B, ..., a, b, ...]23:37
thumper[DEF, dab, EFG, eag]23:37
jmlall caps being special?23:38
barrynothing special about it.  ascii sort23:38
thumperI'm abstaining because I really don't care23:38
thumperas long as people are consistent and it is documented23:38
jmlmaybe sorting like: sorted(__all__, key=lambda name: sum(map(ord(name))))23:39
barryok.  and jml votes for insensitive.  mwhudson is silent :)23:39
jmlbarry, what was the public vote?23:39
barryjml: it was almost exactly tied.  abentley threw it to the supreme court by changing his vote :)23:39
thumperbarry: mwhudson said he had to step away for a few minutes23:40
* mwhudson reappears23:40
jmlbarry, so I guess you lean to sensitive sorting because of sort-lines23:40
barryjml: yeah23:40
thumpermwhudson: just in tie for a vote on case sensitivity of import orderings :)23:40
jmlI'll give you what you want, if I can change to...23:40
jmlfrom foo import (23:40
jml  bar,23:40
jml  baz,23:40
thumperI vote for jml's one23:41
thumperless conflicts on merging23:41
mwhudsonthumper: sadly i don't care23:41
barryjml: you mean, one import per line always?23:41
thumperbarry: yeah baby, yeah!23:41
barryjml: M-x py-sort-imports :)23:41
mwhudsonwith flymake keeping unnecessary imports out23:42
mwhudsoni just mentally skip over import blocks23:42
* jml agrees23:42
thumpermwhudson: me too23:42
jmlthe whole point is avoiding conflicts, in my mind.23:42
mwhudsonit could be formatted in one line using ; for all i care23:42
thumperI tend to skip over them in reviews too23:42
mwhudsonso i think i agree with jml then23:43
barryi've been in import unspaghetti mode today so i can't ignore them.  it's like being hungry when you go food shopping.  all the poptarts and chef boyardee is screaming out to me23:43
barryi hear you about the conflicts23:43
mwhudsonbarry: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/402845 ?23:44
ubottuUbuntu bug 402845 in launchpad-registry "./bin/py -c 'from lp.registry.model import person' fails due to circular import" [Undecided,Triaged]23:44
thumperbarry: one import per line - true case insensitive sort23:44
barrythumper: gotcha23:44
mwhudsoni believe the 'rope' library has support for automatically managing import sections23:44
mwhudsonbut i've never got it working23:44
barryokay, enough with the trivial stuff.  that is all i have for the summary.  what's on y'alls mind these days?23:45
thumperthe code review UI :)23:45
jmlbarry, not much of import, but two crazy ideas that someone else might like to take up.23:46
barrythumper: tell me how you will increase its awesomeness23:46
barryjml: let's here it23:46
jmlbarry, I'd really love to see a graph of 'branches waiting review' over time, and a graph of 'branches approved to land' over time.23:46
thumperbarry: love to, but now is not the time23:46
mwhudsonjml: globally, or for launchpad?23:47
jmlbarry, I'd also love to see a distribution chart of time between submitting & landing.23:47
jmlmwhudson, just Launchpad itself.23:47
thumperjml: we have date created, date reviewd, date merged :)23:47
jmlthumper, *nod*23:48
jmlI know it's all possible.23:48
thumperI'd be nice to have the graphs on LP actually23:48
thumperfor any project23:48
jmlI just haven't had the opportunity to do it, and I've had the idea for months23:48
* thumper thinks about this...23:48
jmlso I'm putting it out there for others :)23:48
jmlthat's it.23:49
jmlbarry, ^23:50
barryjml: thanks23:50
barryit would be cool23:50
barrymwhudson, thumper anything else?23:50
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:50.23:50
barrythank you guys!23:50

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