=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-bbl === Ursinha-bbl is now known as Ursinha === noodles775 is now known as noodles-afk === salgado-afk is now known as salgado === noodles-afk is now known as noodles [15:00] #startmeeting [15:00] Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry. [15:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [15:00] hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting. who's here today? [15:00] me [15:00] me [15:00] me [15:00] me [15:00] me [15:01] me [15:01] ms [15:01] me [15:01] me [15:01] me [15:02] me [15:02] me [15:02] jtv, intellectronica ping [15:02] barry: pong [15:02] me [15:02] cprov, BjornT_ sinzui ping [15:02] me [15:03] me [15:03] me [15:03] me [15:03] rockstar: ping [15:03] gmb: ping [15:03] me [15:03] [TOPIC] agenda [15:03] New Topic: agenda [15:03] * Roll call [15:03] * bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry [15:03] * Action items [15:03] * Mentoring update [15:03] * deryck graduates [15:03] * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry [15:03] * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda) [15:04] [15:04] [TOPIC] bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry [15:04] New Topic: bac to chair for the next two weeks - barry [15:04] so i will not be at these meetings for the next two weeks. bac will chair them in my absence [15:04] me [15:04] bac: thanks! [15:04] np [15:04] [TOPIC] * Action items [15:04] New Topic: * Action items [15:05] * deryck to update js wiki page with recommendations on loading js files in devmode only [15:05] did it yesterday. :) [15:05] deryck: awesome, thanks [15:05] np [15:05] * gmb to update style guides to clarify that `reST` is to be used in doctests, with existing pages to be converted at coder's discretion [15:05] Done. [15:06] fantastic! can we keep this momentum going? [15:06] Though I'm going to reword it to make the second part a bit more explicity. [15:06] * gmb has a new hobby - adjectifying adjectives. [15:06] cool [15:06] * flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki about avoiding permission explosions [15:07] oops, looks like we're missing flacoste and gary [15:07] autofail, he's not here [15:07] barry, flacoste is on vacation this week [15:07] ah thx [15:07] and gary is at OSCON [15:07] thx [15:07] flacoste did add that page [15:07] bac: super [15:07] [TOPIC] mentoring updates [15:07] and, it turns out, the example he cited of permission explosion was actually necessary... [15:07] New Topic: mentoring updates [15:08] bac: oh! did he talk about that in the wiki? [15:08] no. the lesson still stands... [15:08] cool [15:09] so. everyone, please congratulate deryck on his graduation to full-fledged reviewership! [15:09] * bigjools hi-5s deryck [15:09] * deryck hi-5s bigjools back [15:09] deryck: i heard glowing reports of your reviews. i think you graduated in record time. great job! :) [15:09] barry, I feel so grown up now. :) [15:09] and thanks gmb for your mentoring [15:10] Congrats deryck! [15:10] yes gmb rocks as a mentor [15:10] * gmb applauds [15:10] deryck: Only when the student doesn't actually need all that much mentoring :) [15:10] deryck: remember that you can now switch ocr days if you want. just ping me in email or pvtmsg to work out any day changes [15:10] barry, ok, will do. I'm flexible about that and happy to do whatever day is best for others. [15:11] congratulations deryck!!! [15:11] one other quick note: rockstar is out tomorrow, so i will be switching my ocr this week from friday to thursday so that i can mentor leonardr [15:12] any other mentoring issues today? [15:12] moving on then [15:12] [TOPIC] * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry [15:12] New Topic: * Alphabetical sorts are case sensitive? insensitive? - barry [15:13] so, in __all__ and a few other places, we want lines to be sorted [15:13] insensitive [15:13] insensative [15:13] we are currently inconsistent about this. so i'd like to hear opinions [15:13] insensitive [15:13] insensitive [15:13] insensitive [15:14] UCA [15:14] * henninge wonders if we are an insensitive bunch ... [15:14] * jtv feels particularly insensitive [15:14] allenap: what does uca stand for? [15:14] Unicode Collation Algorithm? [15:14] the nice thing about case-sensitive sorting is the emacs helper we have [15:14] ouch [15:14] jtv: Yep. [15:14] By insensitive, do we mean: from blah import Apples, apple, Banana, banana [15:14] adeuring: agreed [15:14] ...for sorting imports [15:14] I know next to nothing about it though! :) [15:14] adeuring: yes. [15:15] also M-x sort-lines is case sensitive by default :) [15:15] noodles: that's already theology, but yes, i guess caps first makes sense [15:15] lol [15:15] allenap: don't need to, it's mostly about nasty stuff like I/i with/without dots and weird orders of reading a string. [15:15] jtv: I didn't realise at first that we were talking just about module imports and the like. Doh. [15:16] ECU - Emacs Collation Algorithm. [15:16] Ulgorithm [15:16] Crap. [15:16] so, am i alone in wanting case sensitive sorting? ;) [15:16] I still prefer insensitive... is emacs being sensitive because it just is, or because people are running it in C locale? [15:17] barry: me too ;) [15:17] jtv: it's just case sensitive by default. you have to (setq sort-fold-case t) to make it otherwise [15:17] i'm for sensitive but mainly due to the tools... [15:18] this is one place i /would/ like to be consistent so we don't end up in line sorting churn [15:18] bac: !sort in vim is case insensitive [15:18] heh [15:18] BjornT_: is this going to be an emacs vs vim fight? :) [15:18] I've been doing insensitive... for me converting what you already have is usually more important than Making a Decision. [15:18] BjornT_: i should have said "my tools" but let's not go there. [15:18] Sensitive, so classes get sorted separately from functions. [15:19] allenap: oh. nice point! [15:19] allenap: that's a good point. [15:19] Finally, I say something that makes sense. Phew. [15:19] :-D [15:19] tools aside, anything but case-insensitive is harder for humans to work with. we should optimize for that [15:19] +1 [15:19] intellectronica: python is case sensitive :) [15:19] allenap: But just in the context of imports and __all__, not in the body of the file? [15:20] abentley: gawd no [15:20] abentley: Yeah, that's true. I tend to like putting functions at the top. [15:20] barry: but you are not a python interpreter ;) [15:20] noodles: you're sure about that? [15:20] barry: start a vote so we can move on! [15:21] bigjools: fantastic idea [15:21] barry can already run the python 4.0 bytecode. [15:21] I wish I could find this discussion from two years ago. This is not the first time we have discussed this [15:21] lol [15:21] #startvote sort __all__ and similar case insensitive = -1, case sensitive = +1 [15:21] guys, no Turing tests here please [15:21] yeah I have deja vu [15:21] #startvote [15:21] +1 [15:21] -1 [15:21] 0 [15:21] +1 [15:21] +1 [15:21] +1 [15:21] botfail [15:21] -1 [15:21] -1 [15:21] -1 [15:21] hang on folks! [15:21] [VOTE] [15:22] Please vote on: . [15:22] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [15:22] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #launchpad-meeting [15:22] +1 [15:22] okay, now! [15:22] +1 received from allenap. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] +1 [15:22] +1 received from gmb. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] -1 [15:22] -1 received from intellectronica. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] +1 [15:22] +1 received from barry. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] +1 [15:22] -1 [15:22] +1 received from cprov. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [15:22] +1 [15:22] -1 received from BjornT_. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] 0 [15:22] -1 [15:22] +1 received from bac. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [15:22] -1 [15:22] -1 received from noodles. 5 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] -1 received from sinzui. 5 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] +0 [15:22] Abstention received from jtv. 5 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] +1 [15:22] -1 [15:22] +1 [15:22] +1 received from abentley. 6 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] -1 received from bigjools. 6 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] +1 received from adeuring. 7 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [15:22] -1 [15:22] -1 received from salgado_. 7 for, 6 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] -1 [15:22] -1 received from henninge. 7 for, 7 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0 [15:22] +1 [15:22] +1 received from deryck. 8 for, 7 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1 [15:22] jtv you meanie [15:22] * barry is on the edge of his seat! [15:22] This is the tensest vote evar. [15:22] 0 [15:22] flacoste is a vim users and a human being: he would vote -1 [15:22] agh another fence-sitter! [15:22] bigjools: I _honestly_ _don't_ _care_ [15:23] -1 [15:23] yeah, but gary would definitely vote +1 [15:23] I'm a vim user and a human being... I vote +1 [15:23] kiko is also a vim user, he will vote -1 [15:23] Well, I'm a vim user... [15:23] haha [15:23] gmb: you have issues. I don't think we need to bring them up now. [15:23] And I still say what we decide here doesn't matter that much unless we clean up what we already have. [15:23] abentley: you already voted +1! [15:23] Touche. [15:24] I prefer to use an editor, not an OS [15:24] * bigjools hides [15:24] bigjools: Yes, but the vote was unspecified, so I assumed we were voting for insensitive. [15:24] abentley: mootbot is stricter than the florida election committee [15:24] vim is an OS. A DOS-era OS. [15:24] aha, i abentley changed his vote that changes the picture [15:24] * allenap ducks [15:24] well, don't forget asiapac has to weigh in [15:25] since it's so close, I vote we leave it *random* [15:25] bigjools: perfect! [15:25] jml, mwh will definitely +1 [15:25] :) [15:25] bigjools: +1, and if it's at least sorted one way or the other, don't change it. [15:25] bac: yeah, i think so [15:25] #endvote [15:25] yep, on reflection I think this is a pointless debate [15:25] yap [15:26] bigjools: it's not. if we could avoid the editor wars and make a decision it would be good to have a standard on that [15:26] What's already there generally overrules what is decided somewhere, and I don't think this is worth a cleanup effort. [15:26] we're about evenly divided anyway. i'll consult with asiapac and see where we stand, then make an announcement later today [15:26] intellectronica: in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important IMO [15:26] If only barry had thought to include his editor's behaviour into PEP8 === salgado_ is now known as salgado [15:27] * barry looks around for the time machine keys [15:27] anyway. that's all i have on my list, so now... [15:27] [TOPIC] peanut gallery [15:27] Vote is in progress. Finishing now. [15:27] Final result is 8 for, 7 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1 [15:27] New Topic: peanut gallery [15:27] I have a sonic screw driver in my hand roght now [15:27] any topics you might have that are not on the agenda? [15:27] +1 for Doctor Who references [15:27] sinzui: pour me one too please [15:27] did we ever decide how to get new contributors in? [15:28] * sinzui really does have a sonic screwdriver [15:28] do they do normal reviews? [15:28] are we going to put something in place to guide them through the development process, pre-imp-->landing ? [15:28] intellectronica: yes, i think so, with a dedicated shepherd to help them through the process. [15:28] intellectronica: i will write up a proposal for this [15:29] [ACTION] barry to write a proposal about guiding new outside contributors [15:29] ACTION received: barry to write a proposal about guiding new outside contributors [15:29] so the current recommendation, if anyone wants to start working on lp branches is to find a mentor who will guide them through the process? [15:29] i think that's a good way to do this [15:29] I think our current process of hack on code for 3 months, then being mentat training will work fine [15:29] barry: how much more info than the existing wiki page do you plan on adding? [15:29] i think if somebody just sends a little bug fix, but clearly says that he sodes not want to get closer invloved, we should not require the regular proceure [15:29] s/sodes/does/ [15:30] Let's not re-use "mentor" here... [15:30] sinzui: oh, i'm not talking about becoming reviewers, but about getting branches in [15:30] we can worry about that later [15:30] sinzui: agreed [15:30] intellectronica: my bad [15:30] bigjools: i don't know i have to review what we've got ;) [15:30] https://dev.launchpad.net/PatchSubmission [15:30] jtv: right, "shepherd" is what i've been using, but maybe not a great term [15:30] What about this policy that we're not supposed to put procedures on the dev wiki? I think it would make a lot of sense to put all the procedures we can on the dev wiki. [15:31] abentley: this is process that directly involves the community now, so definitely dev wiki [15:31] i think it would be good to emphasize the importance of getting a mentor before starting the work, but other than that it looks perfect [15:31] bigjools: thanks, i'll review that [15:31] Didn't we rip out hte mentorship code for bugs? Shame... [15:32] how do we know if somebody signed the contributor's agreement? [15:32] adeuring: and once they sign it, can they land branches into pqm directly? [15:33] we could add everyone who did to a team when they send it [15:33] barry: That would be dangerous. [15:33] potentially, anyway. [15:33] gmb: well, signing it is a necessary but not sufficient condition! [15:33] barry: we're testing via EC2, so I think one of us needs to do that. [15:34] barry: Okay, agreed. [15:34] adeuring: meaning, our outside contributors can't run through ec2? i guess there's the little matter of cost [15:34] barry: just remembered the term I had in mind: "sponsor." [15:34] barry: yes, that's what I meant [15:34] make check *cough* [15:34] jtv: +1 [15:34] +1 for sponsor [15:35] bigjools: make computer_melt [15:35] jtv: nice [15:35] gmb: speak for yourself! [15:35] i think mentor is better because it communicates that you will get help from the person through the entire process [15:35] adeuring: The CoC code is generic. We just assume it is The ubuntu code co conduct in the UI. We will update the CoC UI to support mutilple signings [15:36] i think that's very important because i worry that people will come, out of the blue, with branches they want merged, and will be dissapointed when we have to reject them for whatever reason [15:36] let's take further discussions of this to the new public mailing list, and i will take the action item to collect feedback and update wiki pages [15:37] intellectronica: we need to triage branches early. people may submit things we won't ever care about (e.g. convert all lp code to perl :). we should let them know this early in the process so they don't waste their time [15:37] intellectronica: a sponsor is also supposed to go to bat for you. But we've already had confusion over this, might as well keep separate terms. [15:37] intellectronica: the beauty of course, is that we're free software now [15:37] barry: exactly [15:38] cool. 7 minutes left. anything more on this or any other topic? [15:39] ceterum censeo carthaginem esse delendam [15:39] i believe we are done then [15:39] #endmeeting [15:39] Meeting finished at 09:39. [15:39] thanks everyone! [15:39] thanks barry, you evil emacs user! [15:40] thanks barry [15:40] jtv: i am now doing irc in emacs too :) [15:40] thanks barry [15:40] emacs is an os... vim was written by someone who already had a nice one [15:41] barry: irc in emacs? you sick puppy! [15:42] jtv: what's an os? oh, it's all that extra crap that slows down emacs? [15:42] chuckle :) [15:42] barry: sure, blame some other piece of software... ! [15:43] jtv: let me count the ways... :) [15:43] barry: at least that extra crap doesn't usually use a pointer's high byte to store lisp bits! [15:43] * jtv is enjoying this [15:43] jtv: ouch [15:44] jtv: what are you, a parenthesist? [15:44] barry: I've got nothing against parentheses... [15:44] ...in reasonable numbers. === salgado is now known as salgado-lunch === ursula_ is now known as Ursinha === joey is now known as launchpad === launchpad is now known as Rinchen === Rinchen is now known as joey === noodles is now known as noodles775 === salgado-lunch is now known as salgado === ejat is now known as e-jat === salgado is now known as salgado-afk [23:28] lalalala [23:29] jml: tellytubbies [23:30] * thumper pictures jml in a yellow fuzz suit [23:30] #startmeeting [23:30] Meeting started at 17:30. The chair is barry. [23:30] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [23:30] thumper, I was actually singing the Bob Dylan song that features in the Big Lebowski [23:30] jml, thumper, mwhudson howdy [23:30] barry, hi [23:30] hi [23:30] jml: i am loving erc :) [23:31] erc? [23:31] emacs irc client [23:31] barry, :( [23:31] jml: no. :) [23:31] barry, last time I used erc, I accidentally ended up editing other people's nicks. [23:31] heh [23:31] ouch [23:32] when I wasn't blocked on network io [23:32] i hook it up to bip so it's fast [23:32] and isn't hampered by canonical's ssl craziness [23:32] anyway... [23:32] quick update and then topics? [23:33] summary from ameu... [23:33] deryck graduates [23:33] congrats [23:33] i have an action item to start a discussion about sponsoring contributions from the community [23:33] and we had a discussion and vote about __all__, etc, sorting, vis case sensitive or insensitive [23:34] on the latter, without knowing the results of this morning's vote, what say ye? [23:34] slow news week, eh? [23:34] yep [23:34] barry, I was told insensitive in the past. [23:34] barry, and so that's what I've been doing [23:34] jml: yes, but what do you /really/ want :) [23:34] barry, but I don't have a strong feeling on the matter [23:35] barry, as long as it's consistent. [23:35] jml: agreed. we don't currently have consistency [23:35] * jml would much rather have from foo import (bar,\nbaz,\n) than ordering. [23:35] +1 on consistency [23:35] jml, thumper, mwhudson so if you had to vote, which would it be? [23:35] barry, so in that case, I default to everyone else being consistent with what I already do :P [23:36] jml: is this alphabetical case sensitivity of imports? [23:36] jml: in __all__'s do you use M-x sort-lines? [23:36] but I might change my vote for a barrel of salted pork. [23:36] sorry, barry not jml [23:36] thumper, yeah. [23:36] thumper: yes [23:36] barry, umm... no, I think I manually edit. [23:36] * jml votes [A, a, B, b, ...] [23:36] jml: ah [23:36] barry: I've not been personally consistent [23:36] jml: that's case insensitive then [23:37] barry, yes [23:37] barry: not really [23:37] what about [DEF, dab] ? [23:37] capitals first or real insensitive? [23:37] thumper, that's case sensitive [23:37] thumper, [A, B, ..., a, b, ...] [23:37] [DEF, dab, EFG, eag] [23:38] all caps being special? [23:38] *gasp* [23:38] possibly? [23:38] nothing special about it. ascii sort [23:38] I'm abstaining because I really don't care [23:38] as long as people are consistent and it is documented [23:39] maybe sorting like: sorted(__all__, key=lambda name: sum(map(ord(name)))) [23:39] ok. and jml votes for insensitive. mwhudson is silent :) [23:39] barry, what was the public vote? [23:39] jml: it was almost exactly tied. abentley threw it to the supreme court by changing his vote :) [23:40] barry: mwhudson said he had to step away for a few minutes [23:40] * mwhudson reappears [23:40] barry, so I guess you lean to sensitive sorting because of sort-lines [23:40] jml: yeah [23:40] mwhudson: just in tie for a vote on case sensitivity of import orderings :) [23:40] I'll give you what you want, if I can change to... [23:40] from foo import ( [23:40] bar, [23:40] s/tie/time/ [23:40] baz, [23:40] ) [23:41] I vote for jml's one [23:41] less conflicts on merging [23:41] thumper: sadly i don't care [23:41] jml: you mean, one import per line always? [23:41] barry: yeah baby, yeah! [23:41] jml: M-x py-sort-imports :) [23:42] tbh [23:42] with flymake keeping unnecessary imports out [23:42] i just mentally skip over import blocks [23:42] * jml agrees [23:42] mwhudson: me too [23:42] the whole point is avoiding conflicts, in my mind. [23:42] it could be formatted in one line using ; for all i care [23:42] I tend to skip over them in reviews too [23:43] so i think i agree with jml then [23:43]