=== _Baby_ is now known as Baby
=== heHATEme is now known as they
=== they is now known as vorian
ace_suaresI'd like to clean up the www.edubuntu.org website, how to go about that? Who is maintaining now and with what software?02:50
ace_suaresoops wronmg channel03:05
sbalneavace_suares: Nope, right channel03:18
sbalneavFirst step would probably be to become an edubuntu member.03:19
sbalneavYou do that by contributing to edubuntu for a while, then asking the edubuntu council for membership.03:19
sbalneav== 1. Edubuntu Website ==03:21
sbalneav* Phillip Schroder has indicated that he won't have any more time to03:21
sbalneavwork on website03:21
sbalneavSo philip used to maintain it, but he's fallen dark lately03:22
sbalneavFirst step would probably be helping to clean up the wiki.03:22
sbalneavace_suares: Also:03:24
ace_suaresyawn.... lengthy procedures... yawn...03:27
ace_suaresI did some digging around and the info is all over the place.03:27
ace_suaresDo you thionk that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP should be the central place for ltsp related stuff?03:28
ace_suaresAns is this http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream the 68 pages of docs you are referring to on the mailing list???03:29
ace_suaresWhat tool is used to update the website?03:29
ace_suaresAh the meetings, last week: http://www.nabble.com/Minutes-from-Edubuntu-Meeting,-16-July-2009-td24529541.html03:30
ace_suaresman the meeting  was today...03:31
ace_suaresI missed it :-(03:31
sbalneavace_suares: Did you not read the part of my email that talked about how being a part of a community might involve some procedures that take a while?03:33
ace_suaresUnfortunately, I suppressed those parts03:33
sbalneavDo you want to take this seriously or not?03:33
ace_suaresI spent several hours now thinking anout it, doing some research on how actually the current situation is, discussing things03:34
sbalneavI've spent 10 years.03:34
ace_suaresYeah on this one topic but there are so many topics03:34
sbalneavI've spent 20 years on LOTS of topics.03:34
ace_suaresI am jus tthinking how I could be involved03:34
ace_suaresit doesnt seem to fit my style or wishes very much03:35
sbalneavThen that's fine.03:35
sbalneavNo one's forcing anyone to join.03:35
ace_suaresOf course I do understand not anyone who just flies by can be left to change the website03:35
sbalneavAnd so far, that description fits you to a tee.03:36
ace_suaresso there is some thing really worth pondering03:36
ace_suaresI could in my own style very quickly make a website the way it hink it should be done03:36
sbalneavYou sure could03:36
ace_suaresand then show it to the group and let them decide if they wanna go with it03:36
sbalneavso could 300 other people.03:36
ace_suaresthat woudl avoid the lengthy procedures and keep me interested03:36
ace_suares300 people?03:37
ace_suaresthat many people actually want to improve the website ?03:37
sbalneavLet *who* decide?03:37
sbalneavWho's going to decide who goes with what?03:37
ace_suareslet the same people that decide to become a edubuntu team member do the deciding03:37
sbalneavThe people who have decided to become edubuntu members (of which there are very few) have *already* decided.03:38
sbalneavWe have a website03:38
sbalneavwe have a wiki03:38
sbalneavWe need people to work on them.03:38
ace_suaresOkay, thanks03:38
ace_suaresGood luck in finding them then...03:39
sbalneavIf every person who comes along says, "I'll work on the site, but only if we completely change how it's done, including hosting, engine, etc.", we'd never get anywhere03:39
sbalneavWell, that person can be *you*03:39
ace_suaresHi LaserJock03:39
sbalneavBut you need to work within the structure we've already got.03:39
ace_suaresMy attention is drawn to another round of Warzone 210003:40
sbalneavOK, have fun with the game.03:40
ace_suaresbeen playing that for 40 hours since last friday03:40
LaserJockah, hello folks03:40
ace_suaresHi LJ03:40
mhall119ace_suares: did you get my email earlier abot growingupfree.org?03:40
ace_suaresyeah didn't look at it03:41
ace_suaresMaybe i should03:41
mhall119ace_suares: we're trying to promote charity and technology, so feel free to use the wiki to post stories03:42
ace_suaresokay will do03:42
mhall119or create a blog03:42
ace_suaresI installed Qimo a coupld of days ago03:42
ace_suareswasnt much impressed sorry03:42
ace_suaresI'd like to dscuss with you on another channel and another time03:43
ace_suaresis that okay?03:43
sbalneavace_suares: You'd need to know how to edit a wiki.  My offer of instruction still stands.03:43
mhall119you're probably older than our target demographic03:43
ace_suaresmhall119 i do have kids03:43
mhall119sure, #qimo is out channel03:43
mhall119ace_suares: it was a joke03:43
ace_suareskay will see you there in a coupe of days03:43
mhall119if I'm not responding, leave a message and I'll see it when I get back03:44
ace_suaressbalneav: editing a wiki is not the hard part. I complained about it because I wanted to make a quick change. Prompted by YOUR remark: why do you post it where no one will read instead of the LTSP portal03:44
ace_suaresYeah right scotty :-)03:44
ace_suaresI still feel I am getting nowhere tough03:45
ace_suaresBut I am still here.03:45
sbalneavBut I'm willing to *show you how to edit a wiki*03:45
sbalneavRIGHT NOW03:45
ace_suaressbalneav: your offer is much appreciated but I think I can find the manual to the wiki03:45
ace_suaresit's the way inforamtion is organized that strikes me as inefficient03:46
ace_suaresand i'd rather talk to you about the structure of the wiki and what is imporetat (that goes first)03:46
sbalneavOk, so what's more efficient than a wiki03:46
ace_suaressbalneav: i have no clue03:46
ace_suaressbalneav: maybe the wiki is the more efficient but the structure of the information is waht I am talking about03:47
sbalneavIf you have ideas about how the wiki could be better organized, man, go nuts!03:47
ace_suaresI do.03:47
LaserJockwe have to be a bit more analytical03:47
LaserJockthere are reasons why the wiki is in a bit of a mess03:47
ace_suaresOr at least I am thinking about that and proabbaly with the help of others it will be an improvement03:47
LaserJocka large part is people just randomly "fixing" things03:48
ace_suaresLaserJock: tell me more ...03:48
sbalneavExactly, so, we're here, right now, lets talk about it.03:48
ace_suaresLaserJock: it's inheritable in a wiki thats what a wiki is03:48
LaserJockso we have too many wiki pages, on both wikis03:48
ace_suaresrandom people do random things03:48
LaserJocknot necessarily03:48
ace_suaresresult is random information structurew03:49
LaserJockbut a couple of thoughts03:49
ace_suaresI am listening. I'll shut up for a while :-)03:49
LaserJock1) we need to figure out what things need to be done, *without* getting bogged down into spending all our time finding what's wrong without fixing it03:49
LaserJock2) we need to clearly separate wiki.ubuntu.com from help.ubuntu.com/community03:49
LaserJock3) good quality, stable documentation needs to most likely move to edubuntu.org03:50
LaserJock4) make good use of the ltsp.org docs03:50
sbalneavThoughts on that when you're done.03:50
LaserJockI'm done for the moment03:51
sbalneavI've been reading up for the last hour or so on moin, and specifically, docbook export/import.03:51
sbalneavOne of our problems/desires has always been a way to wikify the handbook, go to/from dockbook03:52
sbalneavso we can, at release time, take a "snapshot" of the updates, and turn them into yelpable xml for the handboook.03:52
sbalneavI've found some xml2mediawiki scripts that could be modified.03:53
LaserJockwhat about moin < -- > html ?03:53
sbalneavHere's one suggestion.  We'd have to coordinate with whoever:03:53
mhall119making a conversion script shouldn't be hard03:54
ace_suaresLaserJock: my tought exactly. Why is yelp and docbook needed?03:54
sbalneav1) Create a moin instance on handbook.edubuntu.org03:54
mhall119I can put something together in perl or python if you can't find a good ready-made solution03:54
LaserJockmhall119: it sorta is though, one has been in development for a couple years now03:54
sbalneavace_suares: Lots of pepople in third world countries don't have ready/reliable access to the internet.03:54
sbalneavif all our docs are internet only, these people are "docless"03:55
LaserJockwell, it isn't strictly necessary03:55
ace_suaressbalneav: forgive my ignorance, but local html structure is not sufficient?03:55
LaserJockace_suares: there isn't a good way of getting HTML to the user03:55
LaserJockyelp is the defacto help system in Gnome03:55
sbalneavace_suares: XML in yelp gives them a nice searchable interface03:55
mhall119what format does yelp use?03:55
sbalneavso, back to my idear03:56
LaserJockit *can* use HTML too  but it's pretty slow if I remember right03:56
sbalneav1) handbook.edubuntu.org03:56
ace_suaressbalneav: LaserJock okay so srticking with docbook makes it searchable, good point, i am converted.03:56
mhall119what's a good app for writing docbook files?03:56
sbalneavmake a first upload of the current handbook + ltsp docs03:56
sbalneav2) let people loose for a while.  Maybe have lessons on maintaining structure, etc.03:57
mhall119sbalneav: a style guideline or template would be nice too03:57
sbalneavcome release time, moin->docbook->edubuntu-handbook.deb03:57
sbalneavmhall119: Sure.03:57
sbalneavWell, there *is* no good docbook editor, other than vi or emacs :(03:57
sbalneavWhich is why wikifying it would make it more accessible to the user.03:58
mhall119any apps that will exxport to docbook?03:58
sbalneavMoin will, supposedly03:58
sbalneavwhich is our wiki03:58
LaserJockI'm not convinced of converting formats I don't think03:59
sbalneavWell, and if it's not perfect, then we do the old a) patch moin b) send moin patches upstream c) blah blah dance.03:59
LaserJockit sounds nice and all03:59
LaserJockbut we have such a hard time getting the docs put together03:59
LaserJockI can imagine all kinds of things going wrong03:59
mhall119if we had it in docbook first, it might work better ging from that to moin03:59
sbalneavWe have the docbook03:59
mhall119then could we make a simple XSL to turn it into moin markup?04:00
ace_suaressbalneav: i like the tought of making an easy accressible starting point and then convert it to something arcane and difficult to maintain. At least the starting point is then more open to contributors04:00
sbalneavthe problem is, if we wikify it, and ace_suares starts adding pages and pages of good info, then how do we get that BACK into the original xml04:00
mhall119okay then, does moin produce xhtml?04:00
LaserJockan individual page isn't a problem04:00
LaserJockit's structure that's the issue04:00
sbalneavWell, and we'll have to control that, somehow.04:01
LaserJockwell, we *could* just use moin :-)04:01
LaserJocka self-contained moin instance with all our pages04:01
sbalneavThen we have to have a web server running on the box in order for people to read docs04:01
sbalneavNot impossible, but seems overkill04:02
sbalneavIf it's a case of having someone to commit to keeping the structure clean, and managing the conversion process, I'll commit to that.04:02
sbalneavif it means more people contribute, it's better than the solo effort it is now.04:03
sbalneavI don't think we can have anything in place for karmic, it's too soon.  But it would be great to have this for the LTS release.04:03
LaserJockno, we don't have to have a web server04:03
ace_suaresIf the only reason to use docbook is that it's standard for gnome?04:03
sbalneavand I think it's doable in that timeframe.04:03
sbalneavDoes moin run as a standalone process?04:04
LaserJockace_suares: it's also translatable04:04
ace_suaresbut to make it searchable, can we not create an index page in html ?04:04
LaserJocksbalneav: you can yes04:04
LaserJocksbalneav: it has it's own little webserver built in04:04
ace_suaresLaserJock: hmm but is the moin translatable?04:04
sbalneavYeah, that's another + for docbook04:04
LaserJockace_suares: not easily no04:04
LaserJockace_suares: wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community are all English04:05
sbalneavWe're all talking english here.  Translations are something that could be handled the other way.04:05
ace_suaresLaserJock: so you want translaters to translate docbook and then? export to languagexyz.moin.edubuntu.org?04:05
LaserJockI'm not positive04:05
LaserJockI'm not sure I like the idea of either wiki or docbook, tbh04:05
ace_suareswhat about updates to the english mon, which result in a new docbook, will the translators easily integrate the translation into that new docbook too?04:06
LaserJockthe wiki is easy to edit, but it lacks structure and is difficult to get off04:06
ace_suaresLaserJock: +1 for that last thought04:06
sbalneavLaserJock: OK, what else then?  I'm open to suggestions.  It's in docbook now, but it's just an excercise in text processing to get it into something else.04:06
LaserJockdocbook is harder to create, but works for local viewing pretty well04:06
sbalneavLocal viewing's a must, IMHO04:07
LaserJockwell, I believe ideally we should put as much on edubuntu.org as possible04:07
LaserJockwell, it is and it isn't04:07
ace_suaresso there is two issues here, or three:04:07
LaserJockit's one of those things where the vast majority of users won't view the local docs04:07
ace_suares1. locally readable AND searchable04:07
LaserJockbut if they need to they *really* need to04:07
ace_suares2. online easy to edit but with a good strcuture04:07
ace_suares3. translations04:07
sbalneavright, and because of my involvement in Brazil, I know a lot of places in SA that *really* need it.04:08
ace_suarescan we agree on these 3 issues and then work from there04:08
sbalneavace_suares: We already do agree on those three things :) The problem is, there's no good solution that does all three :)04:08
LaserJockI think my priorities might be slightly different04:09
LaserJockI primarily want to see 1) good structure and 2) good location04:09
LaserJockfrankly I don't care so much if it's easy to edit04:09
LaserJockI'd take easy to maintain over easy to edit04:09
ace_suaresLaserJock: with 2 you mean good online location?04:09
LaserJockboth online and offline04:09
ace_suaressbalneav: for offline, the only requirement is searchability?04:10
LaserJockI don't want it stuck in some remote folder on the users computer and I don't want it at some URL people won't find04:10
LaserJockwe really don't utilize edubuntu.org04:10
LaserJockit's got a CMS for goodness sakes and we hardly use it04:10
ace_suaresLaserJock: all docs go to /usr/share/doc and maybe you can make a menu itme for it?04:10
sbalneavace_suares: Searchability would be *nice*, but I'd say, from the use case I'm looking to fill, having ANYTHING available offline would be good.04:11
ace_suaresLaserJock: what CMS is used for the edubuntu.org site?04:11
sbalneavWhen I did the handbook in docbook, I got lots of good comments about having it available via yelp.04:11
ace_suaressbalneav: if searchability is not an issue i propose the following:04:11
mhall119I think making the docs yelp-able is a big plus04:11
ace_suares- for offline reading we use a html copy (mirror, wget, httrack generated) version of the online version04:11
ace_suares- and create an index for it (that can be automated i guess).04:12
ace_suaresIs that workable? can we agree?04:12
mhall119I think Xubuntu (and therefore Qimo) also uses yelp04:12
ace_suarespersonally i dislike yelp, well not yelp but the fact that with most of the apps you press F1 and half a documents shows up...04:13
sbalneavace_suares: It's not just up to us, though.  We'd have to discuss it at a meeting.  People like Ahmuck, nubae, etc, might also have thoughts, input, etc.04:13
mhall119ace_suares: yelp is the standard help browser though04:13
ace_suaresalso, the docs are nver started up from an app, becaue there is no gui for ltsp04:13
mhall119ace_suares: are you talking about just ltsp docs?04:13
sbalneavright, but back in 7.04, off the "Help" icon on the top bar, the edubuntu handbook was one of the toplevel sections.04:14
ace_suaressbalneav: i know i just asked it you and lj can agree on that with me. then we can bring it to any meeting :-)04:14
ace_suaressbalneav:  oh, is there ahelp button? You could make a one page yelp/docbook that links to the proper html docs???04:15
Ahmucksbalneav: ?04:15
* Ahmuck needs to backread04:15
ace_suaresmhall119 yes04:15
sbalneavWell, it's a fine idea, but others may have better ideas, so until we discuss it at a meeiting, I'll just say, if going from moin->html will allow us to move forward, and there's no other better option, I'd be happy with it.04:16
ace_suaressbalneav: you summoned Ahmuck :-)04:16
ace_suaressbalneav: good enough for me04:16
LaserJockI would generally favor not using the wiki04:16
LaserJockin terms of deliverable stuff04:16
ace_suaresOkay we are now in part 2 of my 3 point list :-)04:16
* sbalneav casts mysitcal attack of Ahmuck summoning +1 with fireball.04:16
* Ahmuck wakes up from my sleep and shakes the icicles off of his fur04:17
LaserJockI would rather take the wild wild west that is the wiki and turn that content into docbook04:17
sbalneavWhere's my 20 sided dice, I need a saving throw04:17
LaserJockand then maybe try to do docbook -> edubuntu.org04:17
* ace_suares is struck with awe at the rise of the might Ahmuck 04:17
sbalneavLaserJock: That was my first idea :)04:17
LaserJockbut the other consideration here04:17
LaserJockis that currently Ubuntu documentation is not written as a guide04:17
LaserJockbut rather a set of individual topics04:18
Ahmuckindivudual topics can be joined to be a guide04:18
ace_suaresLJ yeah and the topic overlap, are misnamed, sometimes outdated etc etc04:18
sbalneavThat was why I was suggesting the handbook.edubuntu.org, to conceptually separate it from the other04:18
Ahmuckmy problem with ubuntu documentation is that information overload - google wise04:18
sbalneavi.e. topics regular place, guide on handbook.04:18
LaserJockI'm not sure how easy it would be to have a handbook.edubuntu.org04:19
LaserJockwe'd have to get CIS involved04:19
LaserJockbut it's a good idea I think04:19
sbalneavIf we don't ask, the answer's no :)04:19
ace_suaressbalneav: you are proposing a seperate handbook website and a 'topics' website.04:19
ace_suaresCIS ? bot, please explain!04:19
sbalneavwe already have the topics04:19
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about CIS04:19
sbalneavif we create the handbook, that can be the "guide" site.04:20
LaserJockace_suares: Canonical Information System04:20
LaserJockace_suares: the sysadmins for ubuntu04:20
ace_suaresLJ wow gooooood acronym04:20
sbalneavLaserJock: Who would I beg/pester/buy a beer for on that?04:20
LaserJockmaybe the EC04:20
LaserJockand then we can do a formal proposal to CIS04:20
sbalneavI can start an initial dialogue, and have a "No friggin way/mmmmmmmaybe/Sure!  When you want it" answer for the next meeting04:21
ace_suaressbalneav: I think a good idea to seperate the two. The handbook is for 'setting it all up' and the topics is for 'X on Thincan deosnt work'04:21
LaserJockwell, it'd be possible04:21
LaserJockbut the question is will it be easy enough to make it worth while04:21
sbalneavAnd, to get the initial content for handbook, we just docbook -> wiki04:21
LaserJockwe don't have direct access to the machine04:21
sbalneavinstant content04:21
sbalneavwe clean it up04:22
sbalneavpeople contribute04:22
ace_suaresyawn... another lengthy procedure... why not just host the testverson somehwere and then when it's ready pester CIS/EC/politburo/Mark ?04:22
LaserJockso it'd need to be either a wiki instance or a part of the drupal instance04:22
LaserJockI doubt they want to set up yet another wiki04:22
sbalneavthen wiki -> docbook, and instant yelp docks/pdf heck we can ever generate html from the docbook04:22
LaserJockand if it's in drupal we might as well do edubuntu.org/handbook04:22
ace_suaresLJ so the site is drupal? doesnt' that have tons of good features like wiki inside drupal ???04:22
sbalneavace_suares: dude, you run a business.  Do you just get people to hand you cash under the table, or do you participate in lenghtly procedures like filing taxes, registering business names, sending invoices, etc.04:23
LaserJockace_suares: stuff like that, but any plugin has to go through a security review04:24
ace_suarescash under the table at all times preferred04:24
sbalneavprocedures are what keeps the order (what there is) from becoming total chaos04:24
ace_suaressbalneav: apparently not if you look at hte current wiki. smile.04:24
LaserJockI hate to say it, but I'm not really sure this is a technical issue04:24
ace_suaresLJ of course the security reveiw is needed04:25
sbalneavyeeesh :)04:25
LaserJockwe basically always come back to: do it they way we do it, but better04:25
LaserJockwe just don't have people actually doing stuff04:25
Ahmuckhow are you going to get the "guide" to the top of googling?04:25
LaserJockother than sbalneav of course :-)04:25
sbalneavAnd LaserJock , and a few others04:26
sbalneavI'm certainly not alone.04:26
ace_suaresI am just saying this: we don't know what will really work. Moin, wiki, docbook, conversions, drupal, drupal with wiki... lets set up some snadboxes and evaluate, predesign, prestructure and such.04:26
ace_suaresTHEN follow procedures04:26
sbalneavthere's just soooo much to do.04:26
mhall119ace_suares: set it up then04:26
ace_suaresLJ how the hell can i DO stuff when there is no plan where to go and apart from that all kinds of hurdles?04:27
ace_suaresThat was wat trigered for me the whole new involvement in edubuntu04:27
LaserJockI can tell you exactly what to do04:27
ace_suaresmhall119 i will but not if it's frowned upon04:27
ace_suareslj well, tell me see if I already know and rejected it :-)04:27
Ahmucksit and wait ?04:27
mhall119ace_suares: do it with your own resources04:28
sbalneavThere *is* a procedure.  But it takes time.04:28
LaserJockwhat we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community04:28
ace_suaressit and wait worked great. I sat and waited for localdev - great! now localapps - great!04:28
sbalneavIt takes 3 years, minimum to become a debian developer.04:28
ace_suaresmhall119 of course i have plentuy of that.04:28
mhall119ace_suares: don't we all :)04:28
ace_suaressbalneav: dont want to be a debian dev ata ll04:28
LaserJockand then we need to take all the help.ubuntu.com/community content and find what stuff needs to go upstream to LTSP and structure the rest04:28
Ahmucksbalneav: some of us don't care about becoming deb devs04:29
sbalneavBut you want to contribute to this, right?04:29
sbalneavAhmuck: Same here04:29
Ahmuckmy contribution at this point might be small04:29
sbalneavI'm not one04:29
Ahmucki've diversified my labor in the last year04:29
LaserJockI'm a Debian Maintainer, so that sorta counts ;-)04:29
sbalneavHeck, I'm not even a motu04:29
Ahmucki hang in edubuntu/ltsp in the hopes that it will bloom04:29
LaserJockok, but let's take a breath here for a sec04:30
ace_suaresLJ what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community -> okay, that's a clear enough task. Dont' know what it mounts to but if you assure me that's the way and not a krate kid excersise, i am willing to do just that in the coming week.04:30
Ahmuckthough reading the current docs did help alot.  it also opened up questions04:30
mhall119ace_suares: there is a already a technology and process in place, if you think your idea is better, you're gonna have to prove it on your own first04:30
Ahmuckmhall119 :)  been there with the local city council.  ur right, that's the way it works04:30
LaserJockbasically we have quite a few people who would like to contribute something04:30
ace_suaresmhall119 yeah understood04:31
LaserJockbut they don't have time to really dig into everything and become and expert04:31
ace_suaresLS good point04:31
ace_suaresLJ good point04:31
LaserJockthat's my understanding of ace_suares' dilemma04:31
ace_suaresLJ not just me. Did you read the 5th grade teachers story? Amazing. i am sure that's why sbalneav is doing it all!!!04:31
ace_suaresbut he (the teacher) can hardly contribute in a worthwile manner04:32
ace_suareswe are in a new era with documentation and translation being community too not just coding04:32
LaserJockso what we need is some core people who can guide the small contributions along and most importantly provide overall structure04:32
sbalneavWell, currently, I'm probably the closest we have to the handbook/docs maintainer04:33
ace_suaresLJ agree but there is the question on how much time for these core people, wont stuff get stuck when a core person sleeps for a liong time, etc04:33
LaserJockthe reason the wiki gets out of hand is not that it's a wiki, it's because it's random small contributions without any oversight04:33
ace_suaresLJ i'd like to postpone the 'editorial model' for a while04:33
LaserJockace_suares: the idea would be to have more than one person04:33
sbalneavIf we can find a way to go from wiki -> docbook and back, I'm willing to:04:33
sbalneav1) spearhead the process04:33
sbalneav2) maintain the wiki (since I now don't have to maintain docbook docs,but rather just the translation process)04:34
sbalneav3) mentor the new people coming in.04:34
LaserJockI don't particularly see the wiki as a end point for docs04:34
sbalneavthey're not04:34
sbalneavthey're the raw input04:35
ace_suaressbalneav: and run me by why we need to go from wiki -> docbook? I tought proposal was to go from wiki -> html04:35
LaserJockbut within the user community it seems to me that wiki's are seen as end points for docs04:35
LaserJockI think we need both04:35
sbalneavwell, obviously, the docbook can contain:04:35
LaserJockwiki -> docbook for local reading and wiki -> edubuntu.og for majority of use04:35
ace_suaresLJ I reacted on your 'what needs to be done'. But you didn't react back04:35
sbalneavwiki information AND docbook specific info.04:35
LaserJockace_suares: ok, right, yeah, I wanted to get back to that04:36
LaserJockgetting the user docs off of wiki.ubuntu.com is really important04:36
LaserJockbut it can be a bit tedious04:36
sbalneavace_suares: Well, if we're going to go wiki -> anything , we might as well go wiki to docbook, since you can already go docbook -> (pdf|html|plaintext04:37
ace_suaresokay tedious is not nice but it needs be done and is relatively brainless04:37
LaserJockI think there's something over 300 Edubuntu related wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com04:37
LaserJockI don't know how many are on help.ubuntu.com/community04:37
ace_suaressbalneav: but if we cant do wiki-> docbook 9which is uncertain) we can do wiki -> html for the local files yes?04:37
sbalneav*iff* we can't.  We haven't tried yet, and my current information indicates that we might be able to.04:38
ace_suaresLaserJock: I'll study it and report about the estimated time it will take. Also, i was just here for ltsp.. hmmm....04:38
sbalneavBut yes, if we CAN'T go wiki->docbook, then wiki to html is fine.04:38
ace_suaressbalneav: if we can do wiki-> docbook automated, it's a-ok with me.04:38
LaserJockace_suares: I would encourage you to work on what you care about04:38
LaserJockwiki -> docbook is doable, but time consuming04:39
sbalneavWell, heck, of COURSE it will be automated :)  I'm not going to do it manually :)04:39
LaserJockwiki -> HTML -> edubuntu.org is more of a beast to figure out04:39
ace_suaresLS that would be like encouraging a rock to sit in the rain :-)04:39
sbalneavwiki -> docbook's just an excercise in python scripting :)04:39
ace_suaresLaserJock: but edubuntu.org is drupal right?04:39
LaserJockI looked into HTML -> drupal importers04:40
ace_suaresLaserJock: and there is wiki plugins for drupal... ?04:40
ace_suaresLaserJock: oh thats also a good option.04:40
LaserJockI'm not sure we can use those, I don't know04:40
LaserJockbut you know04:40
LaserJockbottom line04:40
LaserJockI think it's darn near as easy to just copy-n-paste this stuff04:40
ace_suaresLaserJock: maybe, maybe not. We'll see04:41
LaserJockit's not like we've got a 1000 page book to do over night04:41
ace_suaresLaserJock: but the users keep updating the wiki and then it can be very hard to do copypaste04:41
ace_suaresmaintanence will be night mare04:41
ace_suaresbut if you can import the wiki via html into drupal04:41
LaserJockthe point is04:41
LaserJockonce you send it to docbook or edubuntu.org that's it04:42
LaserJockit's done on the wiki04:42
ace_suaresyeah but what if you want to split a topic04:42
ace_suaresor change the structure in other ways04:42
sbalneavThen you change it on the wiki04:42
ace_suaresyeha and then ? what do you do on edubuntu.,org?04:43
LaserJockI would like to keep the wiki as small individual topic bites04:43
LaserJockthat we then scrap content from to build "real" docs in docbook/edubuntu.org04:43
sbalneavJust because someone puts in a rough page of typing doesn't mean someone like me can't come along, split it up nicely, clean up the structure, etc.04:43
LaserJockbottom line though04:44
LaserJockwe just need people working on it04:44
LaserJockthey'll figure it out as they go04:44
ace_suaresLaserJock: sbalneav seems to me you create a closely guarded main docbook/drupal site and a site with random user notes, and that no one but a very few can move it from the wiki to the docbook/drupal which will create backlogs04:44
AhmuckLJ, what link?04:44
LaserJockI'm concerned that it seems like we all get bogged down in the planning phase and we never get out04:45
Ahmuckfinally, action04:45
sbalneavWell, I propose we talk about it at the next meeting.  I'll make a post tomorrow to edubuntu-devel outlining how I see it working, we can discuss from there04:45
Ahmuckyes, planning and no action is not good04:45
ace_suaresLaserJock: well i will start looking into moving things (what do you meand bogged down? I spent only 8 hrs to get a daunting and tedious task!)04:45
sbalneavWhich has been my point all along.04:45
LaserJockace_suares: it's not a lot of a backlog though04:45
LaserJockace_suares: yes, well, I've been trying to get Edubuntu going for a couple years ;-)04:45
ace_suaresLaserJock: sbalneav, all: i gotta go. Warzone is waiting :-)04:46
ace_suaresLaserJock: i understand. i know what's wrong with it tought, I'll discus some other day okay?04:46
sbalneavThanks for stopping by.04:46
LaserJockace_suares: ok, have fun04:46
ace_suaresIt was interesting. Got further then ever :-) got a real task that might improve somehting maybe who knows.04:47
ace_suarescatch you on one of the lists.04:47
LaserJockI really think if we had one group of people doing wiki moving and clean up04:47
LaserJockand another group taking the wiki docs and converting them into good, permanent docbook/edubuntu.org docs04:48
LaserJockthat we'd be waaaaay better off04:48
Ahmuckdocs change so often, is it possible to make "permanent" docs?04:48
LaserJockpermanent is not untouchable04:48
LaserJockin this case04:48
LaserJockbut take established docs like what the Ubuntu Doc team has04:49
LaserJockthe initial docs were mostly created in 200604:49
LaserJockand they've been growing and have been refined04:49
LaserJockbut it's maintenance more than creation04:49
LaserJockwhen it comes to LTSP there is going to be some version specific stuff04:50
sbalneavright, but only by a small priesthood (i.e. me) who understand docbook.04:50
LaserJockyeah, but docbook is easy04:50
LaserJockwe just need to get people doing this stuff04:50
sbalneavfor me and you04:50
* Ahmuck is unwilling to learn docbook04:50
Ahmuckcurrently.  i'm on empty as it is04:51
sbalneavace didin't even want to inverst the time into wiki04:51
LaserJockright, well04:51
Ahmucki don't mind wiki's04:51
LaserJockwell, that's fine too04:51
Ahmuckseriously, i work from 9 am to 12 pm04:51
LaserJocksure, makes sense, we're all pretty busy04:51
Ahmuckand crash on weekends, and i'm way older than both of you.  my poor self can't keep up04:51
sbalneavI worked yesterday from 8am 'till 1 am04:52
LaserJockI think the thing to look at is how do we make small contribution effective04:52
LaserJockpeople seem to be getting overwhelmed04:52
Ahmuckyes, small contributions i can make04:52
Ahmuckgraphical, video, text04:52
LaserJockbit sized contributions04:52
sbalneavthats TWO FREAKING HOURS you could be learning docbook you lazy soandso :)04:52
Ahmuckin fact, that's what one of the other guys was talking about04:52
LaserJockbut it takes have core people who can process the bite-sized contributions04:52
sbalneavthat's why i'm interested in going wiki -> docbook04:53
sbalneavif we can pull that off, it lowers the barrier to contributing by about 50000 feet.04:53
Ahmuckactually,  i do testing, ie, using a vm to do setup on a new installation.  i find vm's and screenshots to be usefull, as i can screenshot each step and set it up as a flash tutorial04:53
LaserJockI don't even care so much how/where the content is created04:53
sbalneavand frees ME up from maintaining docbook, to maintaining the wiki04:53
LaserJockI think we need 1) content creators and 2) content integrators/packagers04:54
LaserJockcurrently we have sbalneav04:54
Ahmucki'm comfortable with the wiki, however i've found wikis to be cluttered if no one is looking out for it04:54
sbalneavbecause the barrier's too high04:54
LaserJocksbalneav: is it?04:54
LaserJockI'm not sure if it's the barrier, I mean the other derives seem to do OK04:55
Ahmucki contribute to a wiki for another oss project, and have found myself lately the sole contributer, and as a reuslt have found myself as the maintiner/cleanup04:55
sbalneavC'mon LaserJock, XML's easy for you and me, but reasonably?  We're not going to get a grade 5 teacher doing bzr checkouts of the docs04:55
Ahmucklearning docbook would take time out of my day, and i don't have time to give in that way yet.04:55
LaserJocksbalneav: maybe, maybe not04:55
Ahmuckdocbook is xml?04:55
sbalneavespecially when there's no good docbook editor other than vi04:55
LaserJocksbalneav: but that's not even so much the point04:55
LaserJockI honestly don't care about the docbook04:55
sbalneavbut editing a wiki?  That they may do.04:55
LaserJockyou and I can spend a week at the end of the release doing wiki -> docbook04:56
sbalneavI don't either, other than it solves the offline problem04:56
LaserJockthe problem I see is just pure lack of effort towards contribution04:56
LaserJockand a generally poor attitude04:56
LaserJockeverybody thinks Edubuntu is broken and sucks04:56
LaserJockeverybody see's the problems but don't do a darn thing to make it better04:57
sbalneavYeah.  And I personally don't like that beard you have.04:57
LaserJockI don't care how they contribute04:57
LaserJockI just want to see contribution04:57
Ahmuckedubuntu is not really broken, but i think people are trying to find definition04:57
LaserJockAhmuck: but see, that's part of the problem in thinking04:57
LaserJock*we* are the definition04:58
LaserJockEdubuntu is what the contributing community makes it04:58
sbalneavSo, soon, I need to get working on the handbook.04:58
LaserJockthey're wandering around looking for a leader and guide04:58
sbalneavhere's the 50 dollar question.04:58
sbalneavShould I:04:58
sbalneav1) fix up the source docbook04:58
LaserJockbut it's all just sitting there waiting for them to take the bull by the horns and make something of it04:58
AhmuckLJ, kewl04:59
sbalneav2) turn the existing docs into wiki, see if we can get some people to contribute by the end, and then worst case, you and I do a manual cut-n-paste before release.04:59
Ahmuckthen i'll see if i can get some peeps around to set edubuntu up as a ubuntu ltsp with cusomizeable app installation and themes to pick from, with pre-installed managment apps05:00
sbalneavLaserJock: thoughts?05:00
LaserJockthat would be lovely05:00
LaserJocksbalneav: well05:00
LaserJocksbalneav: I tend to go with 1) but I'm concerned about scope05:01
LaserJockI think it's worthwhile to think about what we want as a deliverable and what we're trying to accomplish05:01
sbalneav1) means, realistically, I'll do it all05:01
LaserJockfor one there's the LTSP vs non-LTSP thing05:01
Ahmuckur wanting the community to contribute05:01
sbalneav2) means, we *might* just manage to keep some (?) of this momentum going, of getting people involved.05:02
Ahmucknubae had a good start when he did the app breakdown05:02
Ahmucksbalneav: is doing the ltsp side05:02
LaserJockok, well05:02
LaserJockI still think we need to address what we're actually wanting to put out there05:02
LaserJockare we talking an LTSP guide here?05:03
sbalneavI have an ltsp guide05:03
Ahmucki'd say just do it05:03
sbalneavI'm talking the edubuntu handbook05:03
LaserJockok, and so what does an edubuntu handbook look like?05:03
sbalneavi.e. it just points to the ltsp info05:03
sbalneavWell, pretty thin without the ltsp bits. :)05:03
Ahmuckah ha05:03
sbalneavBut that's easy to fix, I'll just *write* stuff05:04
Ahmuckedubuntu is just ubuntu with aptitude installing the edu stuff and a theme05:04
sbalneavand if it's on a wiki, maybe others might too, before release.05:04
LaserJockAhmuck: let's go with "was" instead of "is"05:04
LaserJockwell, Michelle_Qimo1 is working on writing up some individual edu app guides05:05
LaserJockso let's see05:05
Ahmuckin what format?05:05
Ahmucksbalneav: #qimo05:05
sbalneavI love her already.05:05
sbalneavShe's hired.05:05
LaserJockso here's how I'd generally see things going05:06
sbalneavThat a channel, or a nick?05:06
LaserJock1) Edubuntu-specific documentation (what is it, installing stuff, etc.)05:06
LaserJock2) guide to using Education apps (specifically, how to use them in education)05:06
LaserJock3) classroom management05:07
LaserJockI think those would be the broad categories of things05:07
sbalneavI'm in complete agreement.05:07
LaserJockso if we can organize the wiki around those05:08
LaserJockand try to be a bit more task/topic oriented05:08
LaserJockinstead of big huge procedural stuff05:08
LaserJockI think we can then pull that into docbook fairly well05:08
sbalneavok, and as an initial population, we can pull stuff out of the existing handbook to flesh out the initial wiki pages.05:08
LaserJockperhaps we should only focus on the wiki portion for karmic05:08
LaserJockand worry about moin -> docbook for the LTS release05:09
sbalneavSure.  I'd be fine with that.05:09
LaserJocksince we don't really have much right now it's not a lot of cost05:09
LaserJockso if you turned into the wiki master for now05:09
* sbalneav salutes05:09
LaserJockand then perhaps you'd get some people interested in docbook by the time the moin -> docbook part comes05:09
sbalneavWiki master sargeant sbalneav reporting for duty05:09
sbalneavSounds like a plan.05:10
LaserJockso we need wiki cleanup05:10
LaserJockseparation of wikis05:10
sbalneavSo, the only thing I'd like to see is the handbook.edubuntu.org, which would be ideal.  But if not, we can figure it out on the existing one.05:10
LaserJockand then I think we need to consider the structure of help.ubuntu.com/community when it comes to Edubuntu and LTSP05:11
LaserJocksbalneav:  I think maybe we can work something out05:11
LaserJocksbalneav: I think it would be of great value to our users to have a space like that05:11
sbalneavBeer bribes?05:11
LaserJocksbalneav: I'm not sure that i'm sold on "handbook" though05:11
* sbalneav shrugs05:12
LaserJockI think perhaps more of a "knowledgebase" type thing05:12
sbalneava rose by any other name would smell as sweet05:12
LaserJockthe issue i have with handbooks is the rigidity05:12
LaserJockEdubuntu can be used in so many different environments for so many different tasks05:12
LaserJockit might be of more use to get the user the closest to what they want as quickly as possible05:13
LaserJock*on the other hand*05:13
sbalneavWe could call it LaserJockandsbalneavsexcellentdocadventure.edubuntu.org for all I care.  Just so long as it's a nice separation from the wildwollywiki :)05:13
LaserJocka lot of times teachers want to have a simple guide they can run through and get up to speed05:13
LaserJockI agree05:13
Ahmuckhow do we link up tutorials?05:13
LaserJockeither we don't or we can have a portal page05:14
LaserJockI honestly don't think we'll have all that much documentation05:14
sbalneavOh, don't say that.05:14
sbalneavHeck if I can drag something like LTSP out for 84 pages...05:14
LaserJockwe won't *need* that much documentation05:14
Ahmuckwhat is edubuntu?05:14
LaserJockLTSP is complicated05:15
Ahmucki'm still trying to answer that question.05:15
LaserJockAhmuck: what do you want it to be?05:15
Ahmuckltsp is comlicated, but not the only solution for classrooms05:15
sbalneavAhmuck: Edubuntu is *you*05:15
sbalneavEdubuntu is Ed*you*bunto05:15
Ahmuckedubuntu to me is a mix of gpl and commercial apps on a network platform installed from a cd with classroom managment utilities05:15
sbalneavI made a funny05:15
Ahmucksbalneav: actually, that's not a bad ide05:16
Ahmucker, Edu*you*buntu05:16
LaserJockyeah, somebody write that down for the marketing team ;-)05:16
LaserJockAhmuck: ok, well your idea of Edubuntu is not far from what most of us think of it05:16
sbalneavIf I'm going into marketing, I want the corner office, a ferrari, and a 3 martini lunch05:17
Ahmuckwhat i can't figure out is how come we never get there?05:17
* Ahmuck is into marketing05:17
sbalneavAhmuck: because05:17
sbalneav(here I go again)05:17
LaserJockwell, I think it's that little thing called action05:17
Ahmuckworker bees because of code?05:17
sbalneavpackaging, code, documentation, testing, you freakin' name it.05:18
Ahmucki think the community (wiki) documentation might solve the identity thing05:18
Ahmucki would in fact be willing to work on a type of wiki documentation, setting up a structure/outline05:18
sbalneavevening alkisg05:18
alkisgMorning all :)05:19
Ahmuckltsp in one area, ldap/nfs in another05:19
sbalneavAhmuck: You're hired.05:19
LaserJockalkisg: is it really morning there?05:19
alkisgldap/nfs is one area that documentation is needed :)05:19
sbalneavalkisg: I ended up talking wikiwikiwoo all night, didn't end up digging into the sabayon thing :(05:19
Ahmuckpoint me to a link.  btw, reading the ltsp docs answered some questions for me05:19
alkisgLaserJock: 7:2005:19
sbalneavalkisg's in Greece.05:20
LaserJocksbalneav: and I need to finish off this dissertation so I can print it out tonight05:20
AhmuckLJ ! get to it05:20
sbalneavWell, get freaking out of here05:20
LaserJockI got on to ask bryce an inkscape question and now it's almost 1.5 hr later :-)05:20
LaserJocksee how much I love Edubuntu? ;-)05:21
alkisgHeh.... go LaserJock go :)05:21
sbalneavFine line between love and addiction.  I crossed it long ago, so that's why I'm still heere after all these years.05:21
LaserJockI swear, if Canonical could only have given me 6 months of full-time work on Edubuntu all our problems would be solved :-)05:22
Ahmuckessentially, were building a doc for educators to use linux in a school environment05:25
LaserJocknot only that05:25
LaserJockbut a majority yeah05:25
Ahmuckwhat was the nice of svenst?05:34
alkisgsvenstaro, I think05:46
Ahmuckttfn, nn i need to be05:49
ace_suareshi all, website updates13:25
ace_suares!seen LaserJock13:25
ubottuI have no seen command13:25
ace_suaresanyone here to help me gauge the website and its structure?13:26
ace_suaressbalneav: dont want to distract you from real work :-)13:26
ace_suareshm https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community?action=show&mimetype=text/docbook13:32
=== vorian is now known as rofl
=== rofl is now known as vorian
sbalneavMorning all14:36
ace_suareshi scotty!!!14:46
LaserJockace_suares: around?17:05
ograace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki17:06
LaserJockthat's what I was going to say17:06
ograhey LaserJock you just read mail, did you ? :)17:06
LaserJockogra: dude, I finished  my dissertation last night17:06
* ogra humps LaserJock's leg17:06
ograawesome !!!!17:07
LaserJockI was up 'til 4:30am17:07
LaserJocktook me 4 hrs to print 3 copies17:07
LaserJockstupid crappy Color LaserJet printer17:07
LaserJockprints like 1 page a minute ;-)17:07
ograsilly that you cant just hand in a USB key with a pdf nowadays17:08
LaserJockwell, it's not as easy, IMO, to read 100+ pages on a computer screen17:08
LaserJockI should have a kindle version :-)17:08
ograyeah, was about to say that17:08
LaserJock1 of my committee members did say it was OK to send him a pdf17:09
sbalneavogra: he's doing a disertation at a university.  I used to work at one.  I'm surprised they let him hand in colour.  Too "modern".  Quill and ink is better :)17:09
LaserJockI think most all the other dissertations in my lab are black-n-white17:09
LaserJockmine is going to be so flashy17:09
* sbalneav looks forward to pictures of LaserJock in his phd gown.17:09
LaserJockoh, I have some17:10
LaserJockI did the whole ceremony thing in May :-)17:10
sbalneavPics or it didn't happen :)17:10
LaserJockif you graduate in the summer you get to pick May or December to walk17:10
LaserJockI don't think I have them on my laptop at the moment17:10
LaserJockI'll probably blog something when the defense is done and it's all official17:11
sbalneavLaserJock: You saw my summary mail in -devel?17:11
sbalneavI hope I captured the essence of last night.17:11
LaserJockthe wiki -> docbook one?17:11
LaserJockI haven't read it yet, I just got to ace_suares' email17:11
LaserJocksbalneav: do we really need a separate wiki instance for this?17:16
LaserJockcould we use wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Handbook ?17:17
LaserJockI'm somewhat hesitant to use a subdomain for a work-in-progress thing17:17
LaserJockthe Doc team ran into problems with that17:17
LaserJockhelp.ubuntu.com was the stable docs and doc.ubuntu.com was the work-in-progress17:18
LaserJockafter a while google et. al just pointed to doc.ubuntu.com  and when the WIP docs were removed everything broke17:18
LaserJockI was hoping we could use handbook.edubuntu.org for the "stable" version of the handbook17:19
sbalneavLaserJock: Sounds fine to me17:24
sbalneavall I'm looking for is some kind of 'separation' from the topic based.17:24
sbalneavso we can say 'handbook here, topics here'17:25
LaserJockwell, topics should be on help.ubuntu.com/community17:26
LaserJockso maybe that's enough separation17:26
sbalneavSounds fine.17:26
LaserJockwe need to make it clear that wiki.ubuntu.com is for development17:26
LaserJockincluding doc development17:27
sbalneavHow do we create /handbook17:27
LaserJockon wiki.ubuntu.com?17:27
sbalneavjust start posting to that url, or does other magic need to happen? (i.e. mkdir)17:27
LaserJockso I would have wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/HandBook be a meta-page that lists all the subpages17:28
LaserJockand create a EdubuntuHandbook category17:28
LaserJockand then just structure off of /Edubuntu/HandBook/<chapter/section>17:29
sbalneavI'm lovin' it.17:29
* sbalneav hugs LaserJock 17:29
LaserJockdude, I left the lab at 4:3017:29
sbalneavSo, we can, quite literally, get going on this almost immediately17:29
LaserJockgot up at 8:0017:29
LaserJockI already handed out 3 copies this morning, 2 more to go17:30
sbalneavoff you go.17:30
LaserJockwell, I gotta wait on those17:30
sbalneavWe have to discuss this at a meeting anyway.17:30
LaserJockuntil the prof meanders in to school17:30
ograsbalneav, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2009-July/191990.html do you recongnize these errors ?17:31
sbalneavBut what it means is, we don't have to bug CIS for anything, we can just do it within the structure of what we've laready got17:31
LaserJockas long as we do a little forward-thinking I think it's nice to get going with something that's ready to be used now rather than waiting until the perfect solution17:32
sbalneavogra: Wow, x-session-manager actually looks like it cored17:34
ograsbalneav, yep17:34
ograsbalneav, but after sabayon did fall over it seems17:34
sbalneavwell, that sabayon error's misleading.  It just means that sabayon-apply couldn't find a profile for him.17:35
sbalneavThe error messages for sabayon are... misleading17:35
ograheh, ok17:36
sbalneavIt did actully exit normally:17:36
sbalneavsys.exit (util.EXIT_CODE_NORMAL)17:36
ograwell, he switched to an nfs mounted homedir17:36
ogranot sure that has any impact17:36
sbalneavOne of the issues is, depending on how he moved things across, I think gnome stores SOME information in sparse files17:37
sbalneavwhich, depending on how they were copied to the nfs server, might result in breakage17:37
sbalneavthe standard way to handle this is mv .gnome2 .gnome2.old ; mv .gconfd .gconfd.old ; etc.17:38
sbalneavsucky, but...17:38
sbalneavIt seems more and more people are storing conf information in things like sqlite3 files, which is all "enterprisey" I suppose, but you loose the ability to just "look at the file with VI"17:39
ograyeah, he apparently rsynced17:40
sbalneavLinux seems to be careening towards "HEY GUYZ LETS RE-IMPLEMENT THE WINDOWZ REGISTRY LOLZ! NOTHING WORKS ANY MORE!!!111one" school of thought.17:40
ograyou can look at them with an sqlite client though :)17:41
sbalneavOh, sure.17:41
sbalneavSo long as the file's not corrupted some how.17:41
sbalneavAnd now to fix something up, I have to know sql :)17:42
sbalneav"update myconfig set homedir = '/home/newhome' where uid = sbalneav;'17:42
ograbut but ...17:42
sbalneavyay progress17:43
ograEVERYONE knows SQL !17:43
sbalneavOF COURSE!17:43
ograwe live in a time where oracle ships complete systems17:43
ograyou wont be able to log in to solaris without the right sql phrase17:44
sbalneavI look forward to the day where in order to update my gecos info, I have to do an outer join between 3 tables.17:44
ograwell, thast the day where vagrant can revive sdm :)17:44
ograsql display manager17:45
* ogra never got why *login managers* are called *display managers* though17:45
sbalneav'insert into current_users values ('sbalneav', 'password');17:45
ogradisplay manager just steals credits from the xserver17:46
sbalneavselect * from sessions where session = 'gnome'17:46
ograyay :)17:46
LaserJockdoes the DM start up X?17:46
LaserJockseems like it does17:46
sbalneavYou've heard of Web 2.0?  This'll be "command line 2.0: revenge of the SQL nerds17:47
sbalneav"They're back, pissed off, and NOT ACCEPTING FOREIGN KEYS!"17:47
LaserJockI'm not very fond of SQL stuff17:47
ograLaserJock, right, it calls xinit17:47
LaserJockmostly because I've never learned SQL17:47
LaserJockbut it seems like any of the cool jobs at Canonical required SQL knowledge17:48
ace_suareshi back from the university trying to sell open office courses :-)18:39
LaserJockace_suares: so is the wiki.edubuntu.org/wiki.ubuntu.com thing clear now?18:45
ace_suaresogra: ace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki18:47
ace_suaresbut they look absolutely different, on my PC.18:47
LaserJocksame content18:49
LaserJockdifferent skin18:49
ace_suaresah i see that now18:49
ace_suaresdifferent url in some cases18:49
ace_suaresin other cases not18:49
ace_suaresbut i get that too.18:49
LaserJockyou can use the same URL, but there might be redirects18:49
LaserJockace_suares: also, it's not a matter of just moving *everything* from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com/community18:50
LaserJockace_suares: we need to just move user documentation18:50
ace_suaresso why is in the edubuntu team at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Teams there are no 'leader' 'reporter' etc18:50
ace_suaresLaserJock: i understand that i am just looking around and getting familiar wit it18:51
LaserJockace_suares: well, because there is no leader/reporter, etc. and nobody has bothered to fill in the blanks?18:51
LaserJockace_suares: we do need to clean up the pages that aren't user documentation, but that's maybe a secondary task18:52
ace_suaresLaserJock: oh..... kay18:55
ace_suaresthat clears up a lot of things! he he18:55
LaserJockthat's good ... I think18:55
ace_suaresbtw cpngratulations with finishing your disserttation!18:55
ograhttps://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu is the actual edubuntu related namespace on the wiki btw18:56
LaserJocksomething needs to be done with all the /Education stuff18:57
ogralooking at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/GetHelp#Quick18:57
ograit properly forwards to UbuntuLTSP18:57
ograheh, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Communication is a bit lame :)18:58
LaserJockthere is some seriously over-engineered stuff in there18:58
ograoh, yeah the Education/ stuff is a mess18:59
LaserJockI don't know how much of it needs to be kept for Canonical either18:59
ograthats all richards marketing plans18:59
LaserJockperhaps we should email his boss or something?18:59
ograand classmate specs18:59
LaserJockthere are a ridiculous amount of wiki pages in the Edubuntu and Education namespaces19:01
ograi doubt chris can do much about it19:01
ograor demote time to wiki cleanup19:01
LaserJockI just wonder if that stuff is needed or not19:01
LaserJockI don't want to delete a bunch of pages he may need19:01
LaserJockbut I'd like to do some cleanup19:01
ograwell, then mail him19:01
LaserJockthat's kenyon, right?19:02
ograhttps://wiki.edubuntu.org/SpecPasswordNoEchoEducation *big grin*19:03
ograhttps://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/HowIsFLOSSLearningDifferentFromNormalEducation oh man, so much about wiki links19:04
* ogra guesses thats from the author of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/CouldFLOSSLearningBePutIntoPracticeInFormalEducation19:05
ograwhich is full of exciting content19:06
* LaserJock is falling asleep listening to dissertation pages printing19:11
* ogra is falling asleep after fighting with ARM code for 14h19:14
ograand i guess thats why i call it a day now ...19:14
ace_suaresLaserJock: ogra so where is the LIST of all the pages in the Edubuntu namespace?19:16
LaserJockace_suares: you just do a search for Edubuntu in the search box19:16
ace_suaresbut then you wont find the pages like thinclientnathowto!19:19
ograthats totally unrealted to edubuntu19:19
ace_suarespgra omg19:20
ace_suaresogra: omg!19:20
LaserJockyou'd want to do searches for LTSP and ThinClient in that case19:20
ace_suaresso.... to fix up the thinclinet and ltsp docs - my starting quest - i am totally in the wrong group here?19:20
ograwell ... the ubuntu ltsp people gather here19:21
ace_suaresi mean i should talk with ubuntu-devel and ubuntu website and so on?19:21
ograbut the starting poitn pointed to from everywhere is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP19:21
ace_suarescan you imagine i rather post on my own site :-(19:21
LaserJockace_suares: it really doesn't matter19:22
ace_suaresyeah ogra, but that dont get you to thinclientnathowto, and that one is on the wiki not on help19:22
LaserJockyou can talk to us, that's fine19:22
ace_suaresi tought we agrteed to move everything from the wiki to help ?19:22
ograthats what the ltsp wiki liks to, the ltspbot in the IRC channel points to and what people like Lns put a lot of work into maintining constantly19:22
ace_suaresteh user docs at least?19:22
LaserJockace_suares: correct19:22
ograace_suares, thats one link that was fixed some das ago19:22
LaserJockhttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP is the portal to all the LTSP user docs19:22
ace_suaresso how do i find a hierachicla list of ALL pages in the wiki ?19:22
ograactually some hours before your mail even19:23
LaserJockace_suares: you have to do a title search, as we said previously19:23
ace_suaresLaserJock: but then i will only find docs with certain titles...19:23
ace_suarespaginated at that...19:23
ace_suaresnot very nice to do some scripting on19:23
LaserJockyou can also do a category search but there's no guarantee that they're all in there19:23
LaserJockwell, there's no scripting involved19:24
ace_suarescategorycleanup is empty for instance which is weird19:24
ograi bet it isnt19:25
ograit will likely just take a day to assemble all the links from thousands of wikipages19:25
LaserJockif there are too many pages in a category doesn't it just not show any?19:25
ograor time out before19:25
ace_suaresogra well thats bad isnt it19:26
LaserJockso you can search for "categorycleanup edubuntu" for instance and probably get some pages19:26
ace_suaresthere! Ony 2 days after scott told me 'why don't you post in on the ltsp portal' i have now finally made a link from ubuntultsp to that page about proxy redir! Awesome.19:29
ace_suaresLaserJock: so actually the thincleinthowtonat and the thinclientproxyredirect should be moved from the wiki. to the help. ?19:30
ace_suaresthats what we want to do right?19:30
ogra"Alternative way to do the above."19:32
ograthats a heavy assumption ...19:32
ace_suaresLaserJock: a search like you suggested yileds only three results, the proxy redirect page is not among them :-(19:32
ograits a wiki, how do you know nobody puts a link between the two ?19:32
ace_suaresogra okay there i am a dumb newbie and i did something foolish, what is going to happen now ?19:32
ogranothing, just find a better description :)19:33
ace_suaresogra just for discussion purposes, shouldt YOU find a better description? :-)19:33
ace_suaresthe whole concept is that is something wrong, the person who finds it wrong should get involved, and not moan about it and so on... of course i dont want you to do it and i am glad you put my attention there so i cna fix it19:34
ograno, because i already worked 14.5h and dont feel like staying on the computer much longer ... just take it as a constructive comment19:34
ace_suaresbut if i go to a page and say hey this is wrong i always get the answer : then fix it19:34
ace_suaresthere is somehting wrong with that credo i believe19:34
sbalneavWho's responsibility should it be to fix it, then?19:35
ace_suaresogra of course i do take it as a constructive commnet but why are my commments or that of many orther not taken as constructive?19:35
ograright, i wont fix it, and its not wrong unless someone adds another link belopw the nat howto19:35
ace_suaressbalneav: good question19:35
ograi just pointed out a possible flaw to you19:35
ace_suaresogra i will fix it becuas it was my overishgt19:35
sbalneavconsidering that *EVERY SINGLE PERSON* involved with edubutu is a volunteer :)19:35
sbalneavAnswer: if you find a mistake, and you feel it needs to be corrected, it is, de-facto, *your* responsibility to fix it.19:36
sbalneavLTSP didn't have local dev support.19:36
sbalneavI wanted it.19:36
sbalneavI implemented it. :)19:36
ace_suaresogra and thanks to bring it to my attention19:37
ace_suaresi am just saying19:37
ace_suaressmall things should be fixed by someone on the team19:37
ace_suaresor else there is endless recursion happening19:37
ace_suaressbalneav: on your question: i guess you normally would say: the one who sees the problem19:37
ace_suaressbalneav: or maybe 'everyone' would be a good answer too19:37
ograsbalneav, oh, btw, there are many files in ltspfs i wrote that dont have any copyright notice with my name ... somehow got lost when you did the autofoo stuff19:37
sbalneavAdd away.19:38
ogra(ltspfsmounter and many of the other py scripts)19:38
ace_suaressbalneav: i dont know but the fact is that contributors make this kind of mistakes19:38
ograsbalneav, will do one day, not now, i'm really tired and wanted to be gone 30min ago19:38
sbalneavSo go :)19:38
ogracan't ... :) i'm reading here19:38
sbalneavMay waves of angels carry thee to thy sleep :)19:38
ograeven though i'm not involved with any of that stuff anymore its to exciting to see whats going on :)19:39
ace_suaresi got a whole afternoon ahead of me and still no clue how to clean up the wiki19:40
ace_suarescan not find all pages listed that need moving19:40
sbalneavI'm sure you'll sort it out.19:40
ace_suaresthere changed! thx ogra.19:40
ograthanks :)19:40
ace_suaressbalneav: very encouraging scorry19:40
ace_suareswhat if i dont find it out19:41
ace_suareswill you have lost someone who wants to contribute?19:41
ace_suaresbut its' allright19:41
ace_suaressleep is important too19:41
ace_suaresI got other stuff to do too19:41
ace_suaresand will sit and wait until something comes up again :-)19:42
ograbtw, a search for the UbuntuLTSP namespace returns 8 pages with awesome ltsp documentation19:42
ace_suaresso why is that one not under UbuntuLTSP ? Should it be?19:43
ograread the note at the top19:44
ograwe should ahve a "historic documents" category :)19:44
ace_suaresokay i hadn't opened the doc.19:44
ace_suaresogra seriously?19:44
ace_suaresbecuase i will make one right away19:45
ace_suaresso let me rephrase19:45
ograwell, its the very first thing every written about the ubuntu ltsp5 implementation19:45
ace_suaresif ThinClientHowTo was not outdated, then shoul dit go under UbuntuLTSP ?19:45
ace_suaresas in /UbuntuLTSP/ThinClient/ThinClientHowTo ?19:46
ograif a doc refers to LTSP in ubuntu and doesnt tell rubbish it should go under UbuntuLTSP19:46
ograthis doc though refers to ubuntu breezy ... but has a lot of intresting background info about thin client networking19:46
ace_suaresokay so in my quest to move stuff from wiki to help, i need to move ThinClientNATHowTo and ThinClientRedirectProxy to /UbuntuLTSP ?19:46
ace_suaresat least then I would have a job to do :-)19:47
ograright, thats proper19:47
ace_suaresi;ve had job description handed out to me quikcer and clearer :-)19:47
ograits simply that nobody needed the nat howto until we had localapps19:48
ograso nobody actually bothered to move it19:48
ace_suaresogra but the good thing is that since we have localapps, someone added a relevant doc!19:48
ograjust make sure to create all the proper redirects19:48
ace_suaresyou mean redirects from the 'old pages' ?19:48
ograso people linking to the old page dont get lost19:48
ace_suaresdidnt know i had to do that19:49
ace_suaresthe job description was 'move all user docs from wiki to help'19:49
ace_suaresno further specifiactions ...19:49
ograwell, there might be blogposts or whatnot that link there19:49
ograor wvwn other wikipages19:49
ace_suaresogra yeah i understand so there's a new point to the job description then, make redirects.19:49
ace_suaresI think of just inserting a line 'this page is now outdated and hoste don help so look there19:50
ograthats been one of the most linked pages in ubuntu land long before help.u.c existed for example19:50
ograthere is a process how to properly get stuff moved19:51
ograi think the docteam knows more, i never did that myself19:51
ograbut that process automatically leaves redirects in place19:51
ace_suaresoh man....19:53
ograanyway, really off now ... i have my first conference calls at 6am tomorrow19:53
ace_suaresyeah ogra sweet dreams19:54
ace_suaresbye and thx19:54
ograciao ciao19:54
ace_suaresgotta go now anyway19:54
Ahmucksbalneav: link to wiki?23:08

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!