[02:49] <ace_suares> hi
[02:50] <ace_suares> I'd like to clean up the www.edubuntu.org website, how to go about that? Who is maintaining now and with what software?
[03:05] <ace_suares> oops wronmg channel
[03:05] <ace_suares> bye
[03:18] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Nope, right channel
[03:19] <sbalneav> First step would probably be to become an edubuntu member.
[03:19] <sbalneav> You do that by contributing to edubuntu for a while, then asking the edubuntu council for membership.
[03:21] <sbalneav> == 1. Edubuntu Website ==
[03:21] <sbalneav> * Phillip Schroder has indicated that he won't have any more time to
[03:21] <sbalneav> work on website
[03:22] <sbalneav> So philip used to maintain it, but he's fallen dark lately
[03:22] <sbalneav> First step would probably be helping to clean up the wiki.
[03:24] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Also:
[03:24] <sbalneav> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
[03:27] <ace_suares> yawn.... lengthy procedures... yawn...
[03:27] <ace_suares> I did some digging around and the info is all over the place.
[03:28] <ace_suares> Do you thionk that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP should be the central place for ltsp related stuff?
[03:29] <ace_suares> Ans is this http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream the 68 pages of docs you are referring to on the mailing list???
[03:29] <ace_suares> What tool is used to update the website?
[03:30] <ace_suares> Ah the meetings, last week: http://www.nabble.com/Minutes-from-Edubuntu-Meeting,-16-July-2009-td24529541.html
[03:31] <ace_suares> man the meeting  was today...
[03:31] <ace_suares> I missed it :-(
[03:33] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Did you not read the part of my email that talked about how being a part of a community might involve some procedures that take a while?
[03:33] <ace_suares> Unfortunately, I suppressed those parts
[03:33] <sbalneav> Do you want to take this seriously or not?
[03:34] <ace_suares> I spent several hours now thinking anout it, doing some research on how actually the current situation is, discussing things
[03:34] <sbalneav> I've spent 10 years.
[03:34] <sbalneav> so?
[03:34] <ace_suares> Yeah on this one topic but there are so many topics
[03:34] <sbalneav> I've spent 20 years on LOTS of topics.
[03:34] <ace_suares> I am jus tthinking how I could be involved
[03:35] <ace_suares> it doesnt seem to fit my style or wishes very much
[03:35] <sbalneav> Then that's fine.
[03:35] <sbalneav> No one's forcing anyone to join.
[03:35] <ace_suares> Of course I do understand not anyone who just flies by can be left to change the website
[03:36] <sbalneav> And so far, that description fits you to a tee.
[03:36] <ace_suares> so there is some thing really worth pondering
[03:36] <ace_suares> I could in my own style very quickly make a website the way it hink it should be done
[03:36] <sbalneav> You sure could
[03:36] <ace_suares> and then show it to the group and let them decide if they wanna go with it
[03:36] <sbalneav> so could 300 other people.
[03:36] <ace_suares> that woudl avoid the lengthy procedures and keep me interested
[03:37] <ace_suares> 300 people?
[03:37] <ace_suares> wow
[03:37] <ace_suares> that many people actually want to improve the website ?
[03:37] <sbalneav> Let *who* decide?
[03:37] <sbalneav> Who's going to decide who goes with what?
[03:37] <ace_suares> let the same people that decide to become a edubuntu team member do the deciding
[03:38] <sbalneav> The people who have decided to become edubuntu members (of which there are very few) have *already* decided.
[03:38] <sbalneav> We have a website
[03:38] <sbalneav> we have a wiki
[03:38] <sbalneav> We need people to work on them.
[03:38] <ace_suares> Okay, thanks
[03:39] <ace_suares> Good luck in finding them then...
[03:39] <sbalneav> If every person who comes along says, "I'll work on the site, but only if we completely change how it's done, including hosting, engine, etc.", we'd never get anywhere
[03:39] <sbalneav> Well, that person can be *you*
[03:39] <ace_suares> Hi LaserJock
[03:39] <sbalneav> But you need to work within the structure we've already got.
[03:40] <ace_suares> My attention is drawn to another round of Warzone 2100
[03:40] <sbalneav> OK, have fun with the game.
[03:40] <ace_suares> been playing that for 40 hours since last friday
[03:40] <LaserJock> ah, hello folks
[03:40] <ace_suares> Hi LJ
[03:40] <mhall119> ace_suares: did you get my email earlier abot growingupfree.org?
[03:41] <ace_suares> mhall119
[03:41] <ace_suares> yeah didn't look at it
[03:41] <ace_suares> Maybe i should
[03:42] <mhall119> ace_suares: we're trying to promote charity and technology, so feel free to use the wiki to post stories
[03:42] <ace_suares> okay will do
[03:42] <mhall119> or create a blog
[03:42] <ace_suares> I installed Qimo a coupld of days ago
[03:42] <ace_suares> wasnt much impressed sorry
[03:42] <mhall119> you'
[03:43] <ace_suares> I'd like to dscuss with you on another channel and another time
[03:43] <ace_suares> is that okay?
[03:43] <sbalneav> ace_suares: You'd need to know how to edit a wiki.  My offer of instruction still stands.
[03:43] <mhall119> you're probably older than our target demographic
[03:43] <ace_suares> mhall119 i do have kids
[03:43] <mhall119> sure, #qimo is out channel
[03:43] <mhall119> ace_suares: it was a joke
[03:43] <ace_suares> kay will see you there in a coupe of days
[03:44] <mhall119> if I'm not responding, leave a message and I'll see it when I get back
[03:44] <ace_suares> sbalneav: editing a wiki is not the hard part. I complained about it because I wanted to make a quick change. Prompted by YOUR remark: why do you post it where no one will read instead of the LTSP portal
[03:44] <sbalneav> Right.
[03:44] <ace_suares> Yeah right scotty :-)
[03:45] <ace_suares> I still feel I am getting nowhere tough
[03:45] <ace_suares> But I am still here.
[03:45] <sbalneav> But I'm willing to *show you how to edit a wiki*
[03:45] <sbalneav> RIGHT NOW
[03:45] <ace_suares> sbalneav: your offer is much appreciated but I think I can find the manual to the wiki
[03:46] <ace_suares> it's the way inforamtion is organized that strikes me as inefficient
[03:46] <ace_suares> and i'd rather talk to you about the structure of the wiki and what is imporetat (that goes first)
[03:46] <sbalneav> Ok, so what's more efficient than a wiki
[03:46] <ace_suares> sbalneav: i have no clue
[03:47] <ace_suares> sbalneav: maybe the wiki is the more efficient but the structure of the information is waht I am talking about
[03:47] <sbalneav> If you have ideas about how the wiki could be better organized, man, go nuts!
[03:47] <ace_suares> I do.
[03:47] <LaserJock> well
[03:47] <LaserJock> we have to be a bit more analytical
[03:47] <LaserJock> there are reasons why the wiki is in a bit of a mess
[03:47] <ace_suares> Or at least I am thinking about that and proabbaly with the help of others it will be an improvement
[03:48] <LaserJock> a large part is people just randomly "fixing" things
[03:48] <ace_suares> LaserJock: tell me more ...
[03:48] <sbalneav> Exactly, so, we're here, right now, lets talk about it.
[03:48] <LaserJock> ok
[03:48] <ace_suares> LaserJock: it's inheritable in a wiki thats what a wiki is
[03:48] <LaserJock> so we have too many wiki pages, on both wikis
[03:48] <ace_suares> random people do random things
[03:48] <LaserJock> well
[03:48] <LaserJock> not necessarily
[03:49] <ace_suares> result is random information structurew
[03:49] <LaserJock> but a couple of thoughts
[03:49] <ace_suares> I am listening. I'll shut up for a while :-)
[03:49] <LaserJock> 1) we need to figure out what things need to be done, *without* getting bogged down into spending all our time finding what's wrong without fixing it
[03:49] <LaserJock> 2) we need to clearly separate wiki.ubuntu.com from help.ubuntu.com/community
[03:50] <LaserJock> 3) good quality, stable documentation needs to most likely move to edubuntu.org
[03:50] <LaserJock> 4) make good use of the ltsp.org docs
[03:50] <sbalneav> Thoughts on that when you're done.
[03:51] <LaserJock> I'm done for the moment
[03:51] <sbalneav> Ok
[03:51] <sbalneav> I've been reading up for the last hour or so on moin, and specifically, docbook export/import.
[03:52] <sbalneav> One of our problems/desires has always been a way to wikify the handbook, go to/from dockbook
[03:52] <sbalneav> so we can, at release time, take a "snapshot" of the updates, and turn them into yelpable xml for the handboook.
[03:53] <sbalneav> I've found some xml2mediawiki scripts that could be modified.
[03:53] <LaserJock> what about moin < -- > html ?
[03:53] <sbalneav> Here's one suggestion.  We'd have to coordinate with whoever:
[03:54] <mhall119> making a conversion script shouldn't be hard
[03:54] <ace_suares> LaserJock: my tought exactly. Why is yelp and docbook needed?
[03:54] <sbalneav> 1) Create a moin instance on handbook.edubuntu.org
[03:54] <mhall119> I can put something together in perl or python if you can't find a good ready-made solution
[03:54] <LaserJock> mhall119: it sorta is though, one has been in development for a couple years now
[03:54] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Lots of pepople in third world countries don't have ready/reliable access to the internet.
[03:55] <sbalneav> if all our docs are internet only, these people are "docless"
[03:55] <LaserJock> well, it isn't strictly necessary
[03:55] <ace_suares> sbalneav: forgive my ignorance, but local html structure is not sufficient?
[03:55] <LaserJock> ace_suares: there isn't a good way of getting HTML to the user
[03:55] <ace_suares> /usr/share/doc/ltsp/html
[03:55] <LaserJock> yelp is the defacto help system in Gnome
[03:55] <sbalneav> ace_suares: XML in yelp gives them a nice searchable interface
[03:55] <mhall119> what format does yelp use?
[03:55] <LaserJock> docbook
[03:55] <sbalneav> docbook
[03:56] <mhall119> ok
[03:56] <sbalneav> so, back to my idear
[03:56] <LaserJock> it *can* use HTML too  but it's pretty slow if I remember right
[03:56] <sbalneav> 1) handbook.edubuntu.org
[03:56] <ace_suares> sbalneav: LaserJock okay so srticking with docbook makes it searchable, good point, i am converted.
[03:56] <mhall119> what's a good app for writing docbook files?
[03:56] <sbalneav> make a first upload of the current handbook + ltsp docs
[03:57] <sbalneav> 2) let people loose for a while.  Maybe have lessons on maintaining structure, etc.
[03:57] <mhall119> sbalneav: a style guideline or template would be nice too
[03:57] <sbalneav> come release time, moin->docbook->edubuntu-handbook.deb
[03:57] <sbalneav> mhall119: Sure.
[03:57] <sbalneav> Well, there *is* no good docbook editor, other than vi or emacs :(
[03:58] <sbalneav> Which is why wikifying it would make it more accessible to the user.
[03:58] <mhall119> any apps that will exxport to docbook?
[03:58] <sbalneav> Moin will, supposedly
[03:58] <LaserJock> kinda
[03:58] <sbalneav> which is our wiki
[03:59] <LaserJock> I'm not convinced of converting formats I don't think
[03:59] <sbalneav> Well, and if it's not perfect, then we do the old a) patch moin b) send moin patches upstream c) blah blah dance.
[03:59] <LaserJock> it sounds nice and all
[03:59] <LaserJock> but we have such a hard time getting the docs put together
[03:59] <LaserJock> I can imagine all kinds of things going wrong
[03:59] <mhall119> if we had it in docbook first, it might work better ging from that to moin
[03:59] <sbalneav> We have the docbook
[04:00] <mhall119> then could we make a simple XSL to turn it into moin markup?
[04:00] <ace_suares> sbalneav: i like the tought of making an easy accressible starting point and then convert it to something arcane and difficult to maintain. At least the starting point is then more open to contributors
[04:00] <sbalneav> the problem is, if we wikify it, and ace_suares starts adding pages and pages of good info, then how do we get that BACK into the original xml
[04:00] <mhall119> right
[04:00] <mhall119> okay then, does moin produce xhtml?
[04:00] <LaserJock> an individual page isn't a problem
[04:00] <LaserJock> it's structure that's the issue
[04:01] <sbalneav> Well, and we'll have to control that, somehow.
[04:01] <LaserJock> well, we *could* just use moin :-)
[04:01] <LaserJock> a self-contained moin instance with all our pages
[04:01] <sbalneav> Then we have to have a web server running on the box in order for people to read docs
[04:02] <sbalneav> Not impossible, but seems overkill
[04:02] <sbalneav> If it's a case of having someone to commit to keeping the structure clean, and managing the conversion process, I'll commit to that.
[04:03] <sbalneav> if it means more people contribute, it's better than the solo effort it is now.
[04:03] <sbalneav> I don't think we can have anything in place for karmic, it's too soon.  But it would be great to have this for the LTS release.
[04:03] <LaserJock> no, we don't have to have a web server
[04:03] <ace_suares> If the only reason to use docbook is that it's standard for gnome?
[04:03] <sbalneav> and I think it's doable in that timeframe.
[04:04] <sbalneav> Does moin run as a standalone process?
[04:04] <LaserJock> ace_suares: it's also translatable
[04:04] <ace_suares> but to make it searchable, can we not create an index page in html ?
[04:04] <LaserJock> sbalneav: you can yes
[04:04] <LaserJock> sbalneav: it has it's own little webserver built in
[04:04] <ace_suares> LaserJock: hmm but is the moin translatable?
[04:04] <sbalneav> Yeah, that's another + for docbook
[04:04] <LaserJock> ace_suares: not easily no
[04:05] <LaserJock> ace_suares: wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community are all English
[04:05] <sbalneav> We're all talking english here.  Translations are something that could be handled the other way.
[04:05] <ace_suares> LaserJock: so you want translaters to translate docbook and then? export to languagexyz.moin.edubuntu.org?
[04:05] <LaserJock> well
[04:05] <LaserJock> I'm not positive
[04:05] <LaserJock> I'm not sure I like the idea of either wiki or docbook, tbh
[04:06] <ace_suares> what about updates to the english mon, which result in a new docbook, will the translators easily integrate the translation into that new docbook too?
[04:06] <LaserJock> the wiki is easy to edit, but it lacks structure and is difficult to get off
[04:06] <ace_suares> LaserJock: +1 for that last thought
[04:06] <sbalneav> LaserJock: OK, what else then?  I'm open to suggestions.  It's in docbook now, but it's just an excercise in text processing to get it into something else.
[04:06] <LaserJock> docbook is harder to create, but works for local viewing pretty well
[04:07] <sbalneav> Local viewing's a must, IMHO
[04:07] <LaserJock> well, I believe ideally we should put as much on edubuntu.org as possible
[04:07] <LaserJock> well, it is and it isn't
[04:07] <ace_suares> so there is two issues here, or three:
[04:07] <LaserJock> it's one of those things where the vast majority of users won't view the local docs
[04:07] <ace_suares> 1. locally readable AND searchable
[04:07] <LaserJock> but if they need to they *really* need to
[04:07] <ace_suares> 2. online easy to edit but with a good strcuture
[04:07] <ace_suares> 3. translations
[04:08] <sbalneav> right, and because of my involvement in Brazil, I know a lot of places in SA that *really* need it.
[04:08] <ace_suares> can we agree on these 3 issues and then work from there
[04:08] <sbalneav> ace_suares: We already do agree on those three things :) The problem is, there's no good solution that does all three :)
[04:09] <LaserJock> I think my priorities might be slightly different
[04:09] <LaserJock> I primarily want to see 1) good structure and 2) good location
[04:09] <LaserJock> frankly I don't care so much if it's easy to edit
[04:09] <LaserJock> I'd take easy to maintain over easy to edit
[04:09] <ace_suares> LaserJock: with 2 you mean good online location?
[04:09] <LaserJock> both online and offline
[04:10] <ace_suares> sbalneav: for offline, the only requirement is searchability?
[04:10] <LaserJock> I don't want it stuck in some remote folder on the users computer and I don't want it at some URL people won't find
[04:10] <LaserJock> we really don't utilize edubuntu.org
[04:10] <LaserJock> it's got a CMS for goodness sakes and we hardly use it
[04:10] <ace_suares> LaserJock: all docs go to /usr/share/doc and maybe you can make a menu itme for it?
[04:11] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Searchability would be *nice*, but I'd say, from the use case I'm looking to fill, having ANYTHING available offline would be good.
[04:11] <ace_suares> LaserJock: what CMS is used for the edubuntu.org site?
[04:11] <LaserJock> drupal
[04:11] <sbalneav> When I did the handbook in docbook, I got lots of good comments about having it available via yelp.
[04:11] <ace_suares> sbalneav: if searchability is not an issue i propose the following:
[04:11] <mhall119> I think making the docs yelp-able is a big plus
[04:11] <ace_suares> - for offline reading we use a html copy (mirror, wget, httrack generated) version of the online version
[04:12] <ace_suares> - and create an index for it (that can be automated i guess).
[04:12] <ace_suares> Is that workable? can we agree?
[04:12] <mhall119> I think Xubuntu (and therefore Qimo) also uses yelp
[04:13] <ace_suares> personally i dislike yelp, well not yelp but the fact that with most of the apps you press F1 and half a documents shows up...
[04:13] <sbalneav> ace_suares: It's not just up to us, though.  We'd have to discuss it at a meeting.  People like Ahmuck, nubae, etc, might also have thoughts, input, etc.
[04:13] <mhall119> ace_suares: yelp is the standard help browser though
[04:13] <ace_suares> also, the docs are nver started up from an app, becaue there is no gui for ltsp
[04:13] <mhall119> ace_suares: are you talking about just ltsp docs?
[04:14] <sbalneav> right, but back in 7.04, off the "Help" icon on the top bar, the edubuntu handbook was one of the toplevel sections.
[04:14] <ace_suares> sbalneav: i know i just asked it you and lj can agree on that with me. then we can bring it to any meeting :-)
[04:15] <ace_suares> sbalneav:  oh, is there ahelp button? You could make a one page yelp/docbook that links to the proper html docs???
[04:15] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: ?
[04:15]  * Ahmuck needs to backread
[04:15] <ace_suares> mhall119 yes
[04:16] <sbalneav> Well, it's a fine idea, but others may have better ideas, so until we discuss it at a meeiting, I'll just say, if going from moin->html will allow us to move forward, and there's no other better option, I'd be happy with it.
[04:16] <ace_suares> sbalneav: you summoned Ahmuck :-)
[04:16] <ace_suares> sbalneav: good enough for me
[04:16] <LaserJock> I would generally favor not using the wiki
[04:16] <LaserJock> in terms of deliverable stuff
[04:16] <ace_suares> Okay we are now in part 2 of my 3 point list :-)
[04:16]  * sbalneav casts mysitcal attack of Ahmuck summoning +1 with fireball.
[04:17]  * Ahmuck wakes up from my sleep and shakes the icicles off of his fur
[04:17] <LaserJock> I would rather take the wild wild west that is the wiki and turn that content into docbook
[04:17] <sbalneav> Where's my 20 sided dice, I need a saving throw
[04:17] <LaserJock> and then maybe try to do docbook -> edubuntu.org
[04:17]  * ace_suares is struck with awe at the rise of the might Ahmuck 
[04:17] <sbalneav> LaserJock: That was my first idea :)
[04:17] <LaserJock> but the other consideration here
[04:17] <LaserJock> is that currently Ubuntu documentation is not written as a guide
[04:18] <LaserJock> but rather a set of individual topics
[04:18] <Ahmuck> indivudual topics can be joined to be a guide
[04:18] <ace_suares> LJ yeah and the topic overlap, are misnamed, sometimes outdated etc etc
[04:18] <sbalneav> That was why I was suggesting the handbook.edubuntu.org, to conceptually separate it from the other
[04:18] <Ahmuck> my problem with ubuntu documentation is that information overload - google wise
[04:18] <LaserJock> right
[04:18] <sbalneav> i.e. topics regular place, guide on handbook.
[04:19] <LaserJock> I'm not sure how easy it would be to have a handbook.edubuntu.org
[04:19] <LaserJock> we'd have to get CIS involved
[04:19] <LaserJock> but it's a good idea I think
[04:19] <sbalneav> If we don't ask, the answer's no :)
[04:19] <ace_suares> sbalneav: you are proposing a seperate handbook website and a 'topics' website.
[04:19] <sbalneav> Right.
[04:19] <ace_suares> CIS ? bot, please explain!
[04:19] <sbalneav> we already have the topics
[04:19] <ace_suares> !CIS
[04:20] <sbalneav> if we create the handbook, that can be the "guide" site.
[04:20] <LaserJock> ace_suares: Canonical Information System
[04:20] <LaserJock> ace_suares: the sysadmins for ubuntu
[04:20] <ace_suares> LJ wow gooooood acronym
[04:20] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Who would I beg/pester/buy a beer for on that?
[04:20] <LaserJock> maybe the EC
[04:20] <LaserJock> and then we can do a formal proposal to CIS
[04:21] <sbalneav> I can start an initial dialogue, and have a "No friggin way/mmmmmmmaybe/Sure!  When you want it" answer for the next meeting
[04:21] <ace_suares> sbalneav: I think a good idea to seperate the two. The handbook is for 'setting it all up' and the topics is for 'X on Thincan deosnt work'
[04:21] <LaserJock> well, it'd be possible
[04:21] <sbalneav> right.
[04:21] <LaserJock> but the question is will it be easy enough to make it worth while
[04:21] <sbalneav> And, to get the initial content for handbook, we just docbook -> wiki
[04:21] <LaserJock> we don't have direct access to the machine
[04:21] <sbalneav> instant content
[04:22] <sbalneav> we clean it up
[04:22] <sbalneav> people contribute
[04:22] <ace_suares> yawn... another lengthy procedure... why not just host the testverson somehwere and then when it's ready pester CIS/EC/politburo/Mark ?
[04:22] <LaserJock> so it'd need to be either a wiki instance or a part of the drupal instance
[04:22] <LaserJock> I doubt they want to set up yet another wiki
[04:22] <sbalneav> then wiki -> docbook, and instant yelp docks/pdf heck we can ever generate html from the docbook
[04:22] <LaserJock> and if it's in drupal we might as well do edubuntu.org/handbook
[04:22] <ace_suares> LJ so the site is drupal? doesnt' that have tons of good features like wiki inside drupal ???
[04:23] <ace_suares> http://cwgordon.com/how-to-create-a-wiki-with-drupal
[04:23] <sbalneav> ace_suares: dude, you run a business.  Do you just get people to hand you cash under the table, or do you participate in lenghtly procedures like filing taxes, registering business names, sending invoices, etc.
[04:24] <LaserJock> ace_suares: stuff like that, but any plugin has to go through a security review
[04:24] <ace_suares> cash under the table at all times preferred
[04:24] <sbalneav> procedures are what keeps the order (what there is) from becoming total chaos
[04:24] <ace_suares> sbalneav: apparently not if you look at hte current wiki. smile.
[04:24] <sbalneav> right
[04:24] <LaserJock> I hate to say it, but I'm not really sure this is a technical issue
[04:25] <sbalneav> so.... LETS FOLLOW PROCEDURE AND DO IT RIIIIIIIIIGGGGHT!!!!!!!
[04:25] <ace_suares> LJ of course the security reveiw is needed
[04:25] <sbalneav> yeeesh :)
[04:25] <LaserJock> we basically always come back to: do it they way we do it, but better
[04:25] <LaserJock> we just don't have people actually doing stuff
[04:25] <Ahmuck> how are you going to get the "guide" to the top of googling?
[04:25] <LaserJock> other than sbalneav of course :-)
[04:26] <sbalneav> And LaserJock , and a few others
[04:26] <sbalneav> I'm certainly not alone.
[04:26] <ace_suares> I am just saying this: we don't know what will really work. Moin, wiki, docbook, conversions, drupal, drupal with wiki... lets set up some snadboxes and evaluate, predesign, prestructure and such.
[04:26] <ace_suares> THEN follow procedures
[04:26] <sbalneav> there's just soooo much to do.
[04:26] <mhall119> ace_suares: set it up then
[04:27] <ace_suares> LJ how the hell can i DO stuff when there is no plan where to go and apart from that all kinds of hurdles?
[04:27] <ace_suares> That was wat trigered for me the whole new involvement in edubuntu
[04:27] <LaserJock> well
[04:27] <LaserJock> I can tell you exactly what to do
[04:27] <LaserJock> :-)
[04:27] <ace_suares> mhall119 i will but not if it's frowned upon
[04:27] <ace_suares> lj well, tell me see if I already know and rejected it :-)
[04:27] <Ahmuck> sit and wait ?
[04:28] <mhall119> ace_suares: do it with your own resources
[04:28] <sbalneav> There *is* a procedure.  But it takes time.
[04:28] <LaserJock> what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community
[04:28] <ace_suares> sit and wait worked great. I sat and waited for localdev - great! now localapps - great!
[04:28] <sbalneav> It takes 3 years, minimum to become a debian developer.
[04:28] <ace_suares> mhall119 of course i have plentuy of that.
[04:28] <mhall119> ace_suares: don't we all :)
[04:28] <ace_suares> sbalneav: dont want to be a debian dev ata ll
[04:28] <LaserJock> and then we need to take all the help.ubuntu.com/community content and find what stuff needs to go upstream to LTSP and structure the rest
[04:29] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: some of us don't care about becoming deb devs
[04:29] <sbalneav> But you want to contribute to this, right?
[04:29] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: Same here
[04:29] <Ahmuck> my contribution at this point might be small
[04:29] <sbalneav> I'm not one
[04:29] <Ahmuck> i've diversified my labor in the last year
[04:29] <LaserJock> I'm a Debian Maintainer, so that sorta counts ;-)
[04:29] <sbalneav> Heck, I'm not even a motu
[04:29] <Ahmuck> i hang in edubuntu/ltsp in the hopes that it will bloom
[04:30] <LaserJock> ok, but let's take a breath here for a sec
[04:30] <ace_suares> LJ what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community -> okay, that's a clear enough task. Dont' know what it mounts to but if you assure me that's the way and not a krate kid excersise, i am willing to do just that in the coming week.
[04:30] <Ahmuck> though reading the current docs did help alot.  it also opened up questions
[04:30] <mhall119> ace_suares: there is a already a technology and process in place, if you think your idea is better, you're gonna have to prove it on your own first
[04:30] <Ahmuck> mhall119 :)  been there with the local city council.  ur right, that's the way it works
[04:30] <LaserJock> basically we have quite a few people who would like to contribute something
[04:31] <ace_suares> mhall119 yeah understood
[04:31] <LaserJock> but they don't have time to really dig into everything and become and expert
[04:31] <ace_suares> LS good point
[04:31] <ace_suares> LJ good point
[04:31] <LaserJock> that's my understanding of ace_suares' dilemma
[04:31] <ace_suares> LJ not just me. Did you read the 5th grade teachers story? Amazing. i am sure that's why sbalneav is doing it all!!!
[04:32] <ace_suares> but he (the teacher) can hardly contribute in a worthwile manner
[04:32] <ace_suares> we are in a new era with documentation and translation being community too not just coding
[04:32] <LaserJock> so what we need is some core people who can guide the small contributions along and most importantly provide overall structure
[04:33] <sbalneav> Well, currently, I'm probably the closest we have to the handbook/docs maintainer
[04:33] <ace_suares> LJ agree but there is the question on how much time for these core people, wont stuff get stuck when a core person sleeps for a liong time, etc
[04:33] <LaserJock> the reason the wiki gets out of hand is not that it's a wiki, it's because it's random small contributions without any oversight
[04:33] <ace_suares> LJ i'd like to postpone the 'editorial model' for a while
[04:33] <LaserJock> ace_suares: the idea would be to have more than one person
[04:33] <sbalneav> If we can find a way to go from wiki -> docbook and back, I'm willing to:
[04:33] <sbalneav> 1) spearhead the process
[04:34] <sbalneav> 2) maintain the wiki (since I now don't have to maintain docbook docs,but rather just the translation process)
[04:34] <sbalneav> 3) mentor the new people coming in.
[04:34] <LaserJock> I don't particularly see the wiki as a end point for docs
[04:34] <sbalneav> they're not
[04:35] <sbalneav> they're the raw input
[04:35] <ace_suares> sbalneav: and run me by why we need to go from wiki -> docbook? I tought proposal was to go from wiki -> html
[04:35] <LaserJock> well
[04:35] <LaserJock> but within the user community it seems to me that wiki's are seen as end points for docs
[04:35] <LaserJock> I think we need both
[04:35] <sbalneav> well, obviously, the docbook can contain:
[04:35] <LaserJock> wiki -> docbook for local reading and wiki -> edubuntu.og for majority of use
[04:35] <ace_suares> LJ I reacted on your 'what needs to be done'. But you didn't react back
[04:35] <sbalneav> wiki information AND docbook specific info.
[04:36] <LaserJock> ace_suares: ok, right, yeah, I wanted to get back to that
[04:36] <LaserJock> getting the user docs off of wiki.ubuntu.com is really important
[04:36] <LaserJock> but it can be a bit tedious
[04:37] <sbalneav> ace_suares: Well, if we're going to go wiki -> anything , we might as well go wiki to docbook, since you can already go docbook -> (pdf|html|plaintext
[04:37] <ace_suares> okay tedious is not nice but it needs be done and is relatively brainless
[04:37] <sbalneav> |manpage|etc)
[04:37] <LaserJock> I think there's something over 300 Edubuntu related wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com
[04:37] <LaserJock> I don't know how many are on help.ubuntu.com/community
[04:37] <ace_suares> sbalneav: but if we cant do wiki-> docbook 9which is uncertain) we can do wiki -> html for the local files yes?
[04:38] <sbalneav> *iff* we can't.  We haven't tried yet, and my current information indicates that we might be able to.
[04:38] <ace_suares> LaserJock: I'll study it and report about the estimated time it will take. Also, i was just here for ltsp.. hmmm....
[04:38] <LaserJock> well
[04:38] <sbalneav> But yes, if we CAN'T go wiki->docbook, then wiki to html is fine.
[04:38] <ace_suares> sbalneav: if we can do wiki-> docbook automated, it's a-ok with me.
[04:38] <LaserJock> ace_suares: I would encourage you to work on what you care about
[04:39] <LaserJock> wiki -> docbook is doable, but time consuming
[04:39] <sbalneav> Well, heck, of COURSE it will be automated :)  I'm not going to do it manually :)
[04:39] <LaserJock> wiki -> HTML -> edubuntu.org is more of a beast to figure out
[04:39] <ace_suares> LS that would be like encouraging a rock to sit in the rain :-)
[04:39] <LaserJock> heh
[04:39] <sbalneav> wiki -> docbook's just an excercise in python scripting :)
[04:39] <ace_suares> LaserJock: but edubuntu.org is drupal right?
[04:39] <LaserJock> yes
[04:40] <LaserJock> I looked into HTML -> drupal importers
[04:40] <ace_suares> LaserJock: and there is wiki plugins for drupal... ?
[04:40] <LaserJock> well
[04:40] <ace_suares> LaserJock: oh thats also a good option.
[04:40] <LaserJock> I'm not sure we can use those, I don't know
[04:40] <LaserJock> but you know
[04:40] <LaserJock> bottom line
[04:40] <LaserJock> I think it's darn near as easy to just copy-n-paste this stuff
[04:41] <ace_suares> LaserJock: maybe, maybe not. We'll see
[04:41] <LaserJock> it's not like we've got a 1000 page book to do over night
[04:41] <ace_suares> LaserJock: but the users keep updating the wiki and then it can be very hard to do copypaste
[04:41] <ace_suares> maintanence will be night mare
[04:41] <LaserJock> no
[04:41] <ace_suares> but if you can import the wiki via html into drupal
[04:41] <LaserJock> the point is
[04:42] <LaserJock> once you send it to docbook or edubuntu.org that's it
[04:42] <LaserJock> it's done on the wiki
[04:42] <ace_suares> yeah but what if you want to split a topic
[04:42] <ace_suares> or change the structure in other ways
[04:42] <sbalneav> Then you change it on the wiki
[04:43] <ace_suares> yeha and then ? what do you do on edubuntu.,org?
[04:43] <LaserJock> I would like to keep the wiki as small individual topic bites
[04:43] <ace_suares> hmmm
[04:43] <LaserJock> that we then scrap content from to build "real" docs in docbook/edubuntu.org
[04:43] <sbalneav> Just because someone puts in a rough page of typing doesn't mean someone like me can't come along, split it up nicely, clean up the structure, etc.
[04:44] <LaserJock> bottom line though
[04:44] <LaserJock> we just need people working on it
[04:44] <LaserJock> they'll figure it out as they go
[04:44] <ace_suares> LaserJock: sbalneav seems to me you create a closely guarded main docbook/drupal site and a site with random user notes, and that no one but a very few can move it from the wiki to the docbook/drupal which will create backlogs
[04:44] <Ahmuck> LJ, what link?
[04:45] <LaserJock> I'm concerned that it seems like we all get bogged down in the planning phase and we never get out
[04:45] <Ahmuck> finally, action
[04:45] <sbalneav> Well, I propose we talk about it at the next meeting.  I'll make a post tomorrow to edubuntu-devel outlining how I see it working, we can discuss from there
[04:45] <Ahmuck> yes, planning and no action is not good
[04:45] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well i will start looking into moving things (what do you meand bogged down? I spent only 8 hrs to get a daunting and tedious task!)
[04:45] <sbalneav> Which has been my point all along.
[04:45] <LaserJock> ace_suares: it's not a lot of a backlog though
[04:45] <LaserJock> ace_suares: yes, well, I've been trying to get Edubuntu going for a couple years ;-)
[04:46] <ace_suares> LaserJock: sbalneav, all: i gotta go. Warzone is waiting :-)
[04:46] <sbalneav> okidoke.
[04:46] <ace_suares> LaserJock: i understand. i know what's wrong with it tought, I'll discus some other day okay?
[04:46] <sbalneav> Thanks for stopping by.
[04:46] <LaserJock> ace_suares: ok, have fun
[04:47] <ace_suares> It was interesting. Got further then ever :-) got a real task that might improve somehting maybe who knows.
[04:47] <ace_suares> catch you on one of the lists.
[04:47] <sbalneav> okay.
[04:47] <LaserJock> I really think if we had one group of people doing wiki moving and clean up
[04:48] <LaserJock> and another group taking the wiki docs and converting them into good, permanent docbook/edubuntu.org docs
[04:48] <LaserJock> that we'd be waaaaay better off
[04:48] <Ahmuck> docs change so often, is it possible to make "permanent" docs?
[04:48] <LaserJock> yes
[04:48] <LaserJock> permanent is not untouchable
[04:48] <LaserJock> in this case
[04:49] <LaserJock> but take established docs like what the Ubuntu Doc team has
[04:49] <LaserJock> the initial docs were mostly created in 2006
[04:49] <LaserJock> and they've been growing and have been refined
[04:49] <LaserJock> but it's maintenance more than creation
[04:50] <LaserJock> when it comes to LTSP there is going to be some version specific stuff
[04:50] <sbalneav> right, but only by a small priesthood (i.e. me) who understand docbook.
[04:50] <LaserJock> yeah, but docbook is easy
[04:50] <sbalneav> Sure
[04:50] <LaserJock> we just need to get people doing this stuff
[04:50] <sbalneav> for me and you
[04:50]  * Ahmuck is unwilling to learn docbook
[04:51] <Ahmuck> currently.  i'm on empty as it is
[04:51] <LaserJock> why?
[04:51] <sbalneav> ace didin't even want to inverst the time into wiki
[04:51] <LaserJock> right, well
[04:51] <Ahmuck> i don't mind wiki's
[04:51] <LaserJock> well, that's fine too
[04:51] <Ahmuck> seriously, i work from 9 am to 12 pm
[04:51] <LaserJock> sure, makes sense, we're all pretty busy
[04:51] <sbalneav> slacker
[04:51] <Ahmuck> and crash on weekends, and i'm way older than both of you.  my poor self can't keep up
[04:52] <sbalneav> I worked yesterday from 8am 'till 1 am
[04:52] <LaserJock> I think the thing to look at is how do we make small contribution effective
[04:52] <LaserJock> people seem to be getting overwhelmed
[04:52] <Ahmuck> yes, small contributions i can make
[04:52] <Ahmuck> graphical, video, text
[04:52] <LaserJock> bit sized contributions
[04:52] <sbalneav> thats TWO FREAKING HOURS you could be learning docbook you lazy soandso :)
[04:52] <Ahmuck> in fact, that's what one of the other guys was talking about
[04:52] <LaserJock> but it takes have core people who can process the bite-sized contributions
[04:53] <sbalneav> that's why i'm interested in going wiki -> docbook
[04:53] <sbalneav> if we can pull that off, it lowers the barrier to contributing by about 50000 feet.
[04:53] <Ahmuck> actually,  i do testing, ie, using a vm to do setup on a new installation.  i find vm's and screenshots to be usefull, as i can screenshot each step and set it up as a flash tutorial
[04:53] <LaserJock> I don't even care so much how/where the content is created
[04:53] <sbalneav> and frees ME up from maintaining docbook, to maintaining the wiki
[04:54] <LaserJock> I think we need 1) content creators and 2) content integrators/packagers
[04:54] <LaserJock> currently we have sbalneav
[04:54] <sbalneav> right
[04:54] <Ahmuck> i'm comfortable with the wiki, however i've found wikis to be cluttered if no one is looking out for it
[04:54] <sbalneav> because the barrier's too high
[04:54] <LaserJock> sbalneav: is it?
[04:55] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if it's the barrier, I mean the other derives seem to do OK
[04:55] <Ahmuck> i contribute to a wiki for another oss project, and have found myself lately the sole contributer, and as a reuslt have found myself as the maintiner/cleanup
[04:55] <sbalneav> C'mon LaserJock, XML's easy for you and me, but reasonably?  We're not going to get a grade 5 teacher doing bzr checkouts of the docs
[04:55] <Ahmuck> learning docbook would take time out of my day, and i don't have time to give in that way yet.
[04:55] <LaserJock> sbalneav: maybe, maybe not
[04:55] <Ahmuck> docbook is xml?
[04:55] <sbalneav> especially when there's no good docbook editor other than vi
[04:55] <LaserJock> sbalneav: but that's not even so much the point
[04:55] <Ahmuck> gedit
[04:55] <LaserJock> I honestly don't care about the docbook
[04:55] <sbalneav> but editing a wiki?  That they may do.
[04:56] <LaserJock> you and I can spend a week at the end of the release doing wiki -> docbook
[04:56] <sbalneav> I don't either, other than it solves the offline problem
[04:56] <LaserJock> the problem I see is just pure lack of effort towards contribution
[04:56] <LaserJock> and a generally poor attitude
[04:56] <LaserJock> everybody thinks Edubuntu is broken and sucks
[04:57] <LaserJock> everybody see's the problems but don't do a darn thing to make it better
[04:57] <sbalneav> Yeah.  And I personally don't like that beard you have.
[04:57] <LaserJock> I don't care how they contribute
[04:57] <LaserJock> I just want to see contribution
[04:57] <Ahmuck> edubuntu is not really broken, but i think people are trying to find definition
[04:57] <sbalneav> heh
[04:57] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: but see, that's part of the problem in thinking
[04:58] <LaserJock> *we* are the definition
[04:58] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is what the contributing community makes it
[04:58] <sbalneav> So, soon, I need to get working on the handbook.
[04:58] <LaserJock> they're wandering around looking for a leader and guide
[04:58] <sbalneav> here's the 50 dollar question.
[04:58] <sbalneav> Should I:
[04:58] <sbalneav> 1) fix up the source docbook
[04:58] <LaserJock> but it's all just sitting there waiting for them to take the bull by the horns and make something of it
[04:59] <Ahmuck> LJ, kewl
[04:59] <sbalneav> 2) turn the existing docs into wiki, see if we can get some people to contribute by the end, and then worst case, you and I do a manual cut-n-paste before release.
[05:00] <Ahmuck> then i'll see if i can get some peeps around to set edubuntu up as a ubuntu ltsp with cusomizeable app installation and themes to pick from, with pre-installed managment apps
[05:00] <Ahmuck> ?
[05:00] <sbalneav> LaserJock: thoughts?
[05:00] <LaserJock> that would be lovely
[05:00] <LaserJock> sbalneav: well
[05:01] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I tend to go with 1) but I'm concerned about scope
[05:01] <LaserJock> I think it's worthwhile to think about what we want as a deliverable and what we're trying to accomplish
[05:01] <sbalneav> 1) means, realistically, I'll do it all
[05:01] <LaserJock> for one there's the LTSP vs non-LTSP thing
[05:01] <Ahmuck> ur wanting the community to contribute
[05:02] <sbalneav> 2) means, we *might* just manage to keep some (?) of this momentum going, of getting people involved.
[05:02] <Ahmuck> nubae had a good start when he did the app breakdown
[05:02] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: is doing the ltsp side
[05:02] <LaserJock> ok, well
[05:02] <LaserJock> I still think we need to address what we're actually wanting to put out there
[05:03] <Ahmuck> ?
[05:03] <LaserJock> are we talking an LTSP guide here?
[05:03] <sbalneav> No.
[05:03] <sbalneav> I have an ltsp guide
[05:03] <Ahmuck> i'd say just do it
[05:03] <sbalneav> I'm talking the edubuntu handbook
[05:03] <LaserJock> ok, and so what does an edubuntu handbook look like?
[05:03] <sbalneav> i.e. it just points to the ltsp info
[05:03] <sbalneav> Well, pretty thin without the ltsp bits. :)
[05:03] <Ahmuck> ah ha
[05:04] <sbalneav> But that's easy to fix, I'll just *write* stuff
[05:04] <Ahmuck> edubuntu is just ubuntu with aptitude installing the edu stuff and a theme
[05:04] <sbalneav> and if it's on a wiki, maybe others might too, before release.
[05:04] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: let's go with "was" instead of "is"
[05:05] <LaserJock> well, Michelle_Qimo1 is working on writing up some individual edu app guides
[05:05] <LaserJock> so let's see
[05:05] <Ahmuck> in what format?
[05:05] <sbalneav> .....whoooo?
[05:05] <LaserJock> wiki
[05:05] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: #qimo
[05:05] <sbalneav> I love her already.
[05:05] <sbalneav> She's hired.
[05:05] <LaserJock> heh
[05:06] <LaserJock> so here's how I'd generally see things going
[05:06] <sbalneav> That a channel, or a nick?
[05:06] <LaserJock> 1) Edubuntu-specific documentation (what is it, installing stuff, etc.)
[05:06] <LaserJock> 2) guide to using Education apps (specifically, how to use them in education)
[05:07] <LaserJock> 3) classroom management
[05:07] <LaserJock> I think those would be the broad categories of things
[05:07] <sbalneav> I'm in complete agreement.
[05:08] <LaserJock> so if we can organize the wiki around those
[05:08] <LaserJock> and try to be a bit more task/topic oriented
[05:08] <LaserJock> instead of big huge procedural stuff
[05:08] <LaserJock> I think we can then pull that into docbook fairly well
[05:08] <sbalneav> ok, and as an initial population, we can pull stuff out of the existing handbook to flesh out the initial wiki pages.
[05:08] <LaserJock> perhaps we should only focus on the wiki portion for karmic
[05:09] <LaserJock> and worry about moin -> docbook for the LTS release
[05:09] <sbalneav> Sure.  I'd be fine with that.
[05:09] <LaserJock> since we don't really have much right now it's not a lot of cost
[05:09] <LaserJock> so if you turned into the wiki master for now
[05:09]  * sbalneav salutes
[05:09] <LaserJock> and then perhaps you'd get some people interested in docbook by the time the moin -> docbook part comes
[05:09] <sbalneav> Wiki master sargeant sbalneav reporting for duty
[05:10] <sbalneav> Sounds like a plan.
[05:10] <LaserJock> so we need wiki cleanup
[05:10] <LaserJock> separation of wikis
[05:10] <sbalneav> So, the only thing I'd like to see is the handbook.edubuntu.org, which would be ideal.  But if not, we can figure it out on the existing one.
[05:11] <LaserJock> and then I think we need to consider the structure of help.ubuntu.com/community when it comes to Edubuntu and LTSP
[05:11] <LaserJock> sbalneav:  I think maybe we can work something out
[05:11] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I think it would be of great value to our users to have a space like that
[05:11] <sbalneav> Beer bribes?
[05:11] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I'm not sure that i'm sold on "handbook" though
[05:12]  * sbalneav shrugs
[05:12] <LaserJock> I think perhaps more of a "knowledgebase" type thing
[05:12] <sbalneav> a rose by any other name would smell as sweet
[05:12] <LaserJock> the issue i have with handbooks is the rigidity
[05:12] <LaserJock> Edubuntu can be used in so many different environments for so many different tasks
[05:13] <LaserJock> it might be of more use to get the user the closest to what they want as quickly as possible
[05:13] <LaserJock> *on the other hand*
[05:13] <sbalneav> We could call it LaserJockandsbalneavsexcellentdocadventure.edubuntu.org for all I care.  Just so long as it's a nice separation from the wildwollywiki :)
[05:13] <LaserJock> a lot of times teachers want to have a simple guide they can run through and get up to speed
[05:13] <LaserJock> I agree
[05:13] <Ahmuck> how do we link up tutorials?
[05:14] <LaserJock> either we don't or we can have a portal page
[05:14] <LaserJock> I honestly don't think we'll have all that much documentation
[05:14] <sbalneav> yeah.
[05:14] <sbalneav> Oh, don't say that.
[05:14] <LaserJock> well
[05:14] <sbalneav> Heck if I can drag something like LTSP out for 84 pages...
[05:14] <LaserJock> we won't *need* that much documentation
[05:14] <Ahmuck> what is edubuntu?
[05:14] <LaserJock> ugg
[05:15] <LaserJock> LTSP is complicated
[05:15] <Ahmuck> i'm still trying to answer that question.
[05:15] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: what do you want it to be?
[05:15] <LaserJock> :-)
[05:15] <Ahmuck> ltsp is comlicated, but not the only solution for classrooms
[05:15] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: Edubuntu is *you*
[05:15] <sbalneav> Edubuntu is Ed*you*bunto
[05:15] <Ahmuck> edubuntu to me is a mix of gpl and commercial apps on a network platform installed from a cd with classroom managment utilities
[05:15] <sbalneav> I made a funny
[05:16] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: actually, that's not a bad ide
[05:16] <Ahmuck> Ed*you*buntu
[05:16] <Ahmuck> er, Edu*you*buntu
[05:16] <LaserJock> yeah, somebody write that down for the marketing team ;-)
[05:16] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: ok, well your idea of Edubuntu is not far from what most of us think of it
[05:17] <sbalneav> If I'm going into marketing, I want the corner office, a ferrari, and a 3 martini lunch
[05:17] <Ahmuck> what i can't figure out is how come we never get there?
[05:17]  * Ahmuck is into marketing
[05:17] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: because
[05:17] <sbalneav> (here I go again)
[05:17] <sbalneav> WE NEED MORE WORKER BEES
[05:17] <LaserJock> well, I think it's that little thing called action
[05:17] <Ahmuck> worker bees because of code?
[05:18] <sbalneav> packaging, code, documentation, testing, you freakin' name it.
[05:18] <Ahmuck> i think the community (wiki) documentation might solve the identity thing
[05:18] <Ahmuck> i would in fact be willing to work on a type of wiki documentation, setting up a structure/outline
[05:18] <sbalneav> evening alkisg
[05:19] <alkisg> Morning all :)
[05:19] <Ahmuck> ltsp in one area, ldap/nfs in another
[05:19] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: You're hired.
[05:19] <LaserJock> alkisg: is it really morning there?
[05:19] <alkisg> ldap/nfs is one area that documentation is needed :)
[05:19] <sbalneav> alkisg: I ended up talking wikiwikiwoo all night, didn't end up digging into the sabayon thing :(
[05:19] <Ahmuck> point me to a link.  btw, reading the ltsp docs answered some questions for me
[05:19] <alkisg> LaserJock: 7:20
[05:20] <sbalneav> alkisg's in Greece.
[05:20] <LaserJock> sbalneav: and I need to finish off this dissertation so I can print it out tonight
[05:20] <Ahmuck> LJ ! get to it
[05:20] <sbalneav> Well, get freaking out of here
[05:20] <LaserJock> I got on to ask bryce an inkscape question and now it's almost 1.5 hr later :-)
[05:21] <LaserJock> see how much I love Edubuntu? ;-)
[05:21] <alkisg> Heh.... go LaserJock go :)
[05:21] <sbalneav> Fine line between love and addiction.  I crossed it long ago, so that's why I'm still heere after all these years.
[05:22] <LaserJock> I swear, if Canonical could only have given me 6 months of full-time work on Edubuntu all our problems would be solved :-)
[05:25] <Ahmuck> essentially, were building a doc for educators to use linux in a school environment
[05:25] <LaserJock> not only that
[05:25] <LaserJock> but a majority yeah
[05:34] <Ahmuck> what was the nice of svenst?
[05:44] <Ahmuck> nice/nick
[05:46] <alkisg> svenstaro, I think
[05:49] <Ahmuck> ttfn, nn i need to be
[13:25] <ace_suares> hi all, website updates
[13:25] <ace_suares> !seen LaserJock
[13:26] <ace_suares> anyone here to help me gauge the website and its structure?
[13:26] <ace_suares> sbalneav: dont want to distract you from real work :-)
[13:32] <ace_suares> hm https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community?action=show&mimetype=text/docbook
[14:36] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:46] <ace_suares> hi scotty!!!
[15:46] <mhall119|work> morning
[15:53] <sbalneav> Morning
[17:05] <LaserJock> ace_suares: around?
[17:06] <ogra> ace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki
[17:06] <LaserJock> that's what I was going to say
[17:06] <ogra> hey LaserJock you just read mail, did you ? :)
[17:06] <LaserJock> ogra: dude, I finished  my dissertation last night
[17:06]  * ogra humps LaserJock's leg
[17:06] <LaserJock> ewwww
[17:06] <ogra> :)
[17:07] <ogra> awesome !!!!
[17:07] <LaserJock> I was up 'til 4:30am
[17:07] <LaserJock> took me 4 hrs to print 3 copies
[17:07] <ogra> phew
[17:07] <LaserJock> stupid crappy Color LaserJet printer
[17:07] <LaserJock> prints like 1 page a minute ;-)
[17:07] <ogra> heh
[17:08] <ogra> silly that you cant just hand in a USB key with a pdf nowadays
[17:08] <LaserJock> well, it's not as easy, IMO, to read 100+ pages on a computer screen
[17:08] <LaserJock> I should have a kindle version :-)
[17:08] <ogra> yeah, was about to say that
[17:09] <LaserJock> 1 of my committee members did say it was OK to send him a pdf
[17:09] <sbalneav> ogra: he's doing a disertation at a university.  I used to work at one.  I'm surprised they let him hand in colour.  Too "modern".  Quill and ink is better :)
[17:09] <LaserJock> yeah
[17:09] <ogra> lol
[17:09] <LaserJock> I think most all the other dissertations in my lab are black-n-white
[17:09] <LaserJock> mine is going to be so flashy
[17:09] <LaserJock> :-)
[17:09]  * sbalneav looks forward to pictures of LaserJock in his phd gown.
[17:10] <LaserJock> oh, I have some
[17:10] <LaserJock> I did the whole ceremony thing in May :-)
[17:10] <sbalneav> Pics or it didn't happen :)
[17:10] <LaserJock> if you graduate in the summer you get to pick May or December to walk
[17:10] <LaserJock> I don't think I have them on my laptop at the moment
[17:11] <LaserJock> I'll probably blog something when the defense is done and it's all official
[17:11] <sbalneav> LaserJock: You saw my summary mail in -devel?
[17:11] <sbalneav> I hope I captured the essence of last night.
[17:11] <LaserJock> the wiki -> docbook one?
[17:11] <sbalneav> yeah
[17:11] <LaserJock> I haven't read it yet, I just got to ace_suares' email
[17:16] <LaserJock> sbalneav: do we really need a separate wiki instance for this?
[17:17] <LaserJock> could we use wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Handbook ?
[17:17] <LaserJock> I'm somewhat hesitant to use a subdomain for a work-in-progress thing
[17:17] <LaserJock> the Doc team ran into problems with that
[17:18] <LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com was the stable docs and doc.ubuntu.com was the work-in-progress
[17:18] <LaserJock> after a while google et. al just pointed to doc.ubuntu.com  and when the WIP docs were removed everything broke
[17:19] <LaserJock> I was hoping we could use handbook.edubuntu.org for the "stable" version of the handbook
[17:24] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Sounds fine to me
[17:24] <sbalneav> all I'm looking for is some kind of 'separation' from the topic based.
[17:25] <sbalneav> so we can say 'handbook here, topics here'
[17:26] <LaserJock> well, topics should be on help.ubuntu.com/community
[17:26] <LaserJock> so maybe that's enough separation
[17:26] <sbalneav> Sounds fine.
[17:26] <LaserJock> we need to make it clear that wiki.ubuntu.com is for development
[17:27] <LaserJock> including doc development
[17:27] <sbalneav> How do we create /handbook
[17:27] <LaserJock> on wiki.ubuntu.com?
[17:27] <sbalneav> just start posting to that url, or does other magic need to happen? (i.e. mkdir)
[17:28] <LaserJock> so I would have wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/HandBook be a meta-page that lists all the subpages
[17:28] <LaserJock> and create a EdubuntuHandbook category
[17:29] <LaserJock> and then just structure off of /Edubuntu/HandBook/<chapter/section>
[17:29] <sbalneav> I'm lovin' it.
[17:29]  * sbalneav hugs LaserJock 
[17:29] <LaserJock> dude, I left the lab at 4:30
[17:29] <sbalneav> So, we can, quite literally, get going on this almost immediately
[17:29] <LaserJock> got up at 8:00
[17:30] <LaserJock> I already handed out 3 copies this morning, 2 more to go
[17:30] <sbalneav> off you go.
[17:30] <LaserJock> well, I gotta wait on those
[17:30] <sbalneav> We have to discuss this at a meeting anyway.
[17:30] <LaserJock> until the prof meanders in to school
[17:31] <ogra> sbalneav, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2009-July/191990.html do you recongnize these errors ?
[17:31] <sbalneav> But what it means is, we don't have to bug CIS for anything, we can just do it within the structure of what we've laready got
[17:32] <LaserJock> as long as we do a little forward-thinking I think it's nice to get going with something that's ready to be used now rather than waiting until the perfect solution
[17:34] <sbalneav> ogra: Wow, x-session-manager actually looks like it cored
[17:34] <ogra> sbalneav, yep
[17:34] <sbalneav> icky-poo
[17:34] <ogra> sbalneav, but after sabayon did fall over it seems
[17:35] <sbalneav> well, that sabayon error's misleading.  It just means that sabayon-apply couldn't find a profile for him.
[17:35] <sbalneav> The error messages for sabayon are... misleading
[17:36] <ogra> heh, ok
[17:36] <sbalneav> It did actully exit normally:
[17:36] <sbalneav> sys.exit (util.EXIT_CODE_NORMAL)
[17:36] <ogra> well, he switched to an nfs mounted homedir
[17:36] <ogra> not sure that has any impact
[17:37] <sbalneav> One of the issues is, depending on how he moved things across, I think gnome stores SOME information in sparse files
[17:37] <ogra> yeah
[17:37] <sbalneav> which, depending on how they were copied to the nfs server, might result in breakage
[17:38] <sbalneav> the standard way to handle this is mv .gnome2 .gnome2.old ; mv .gconfd .gconfd.old ; etc.
[17:38] <sbalneav> sucky, but...
[17:39] <sbalneav> It seems more and more people are storing conf information in things like sqlite3 files, which is all "enterprisey" I suppose, but you loose the ability to just "look at the file with VI"
[17:40] <ogra> yeah, he apparently rsynced
[17:40] <sbalneav> Linux seems to be careening towards "HEY GUYZ LETS RE-IMPLEMENT THE WINDOWZ REGISTRY LOLZ! NOTHING WORKS ANY MORE!!!111one" school of thought.
[17:41] <ogra> you can look at them with an sqlite client though :)
[17:41] <sbalneav> Oh, sure.
[17:41] <sbalneav> So long as the file's not corrupted some how.
[17:42] <sbalneav> And now to fix something up, I have to know sql :)
[17:42] <sbalneav> "update myconfig set homedir = '/home/newhome' where uid = sbalneav;'
[17:42] <ogra> but but ...
[17:43] <sbalneav> yay progress
[17:43] <ogra> EVERYONE knows SQL !
[17:43] <ogra> :)
[17:43] <sbalneav> OF COURSE!
[17:43] <sbalneav> \o/
[17:43] <ogra> we live in a time where oracle ships complete systems
[17:44] <ogra> you wont be able to log in to solaris without the right sql phrase
[17:44] <sbalneav> I look forward to the day where in order to update my gecos info, I have to do an outer join between 3 tables.
[17:44] <ogra> well, thast the day where vagrant can revive sdm :)
[17:45] <ogra> sql display manager
[17:45] <sbalneav> LOLOLOL
[17:45]  * ogra never got why *login managers* are called *display managers* though
[17:45] <sbalneav> 'insert into current_users values ('sbalneav', 'password');
[17:46] <ogra> display manager just steals credits from the xserver
[17:46] <sbalneav> select * from sessions where session = 'gnome'
[17:46] <sbalneav> right.
[17:46] <ogra> yay :)
[17:46] <LaserJock> does the DM start up X?
[17:46] <LaserJock> seems like it does
[17:47] <sbalneav> You've heard of Web 2.0?  This'll be "command line 2.0: revenge of the SQL nerds
[17:47] <ogra> haha
[17:47] <LaserJock> eww
[17:47] <sbalneav> "They're back, pissed off, and NOT ACCEPTING FOREIGN KEYS!"
[17:47] <LaserJock> I'm not very fond of SQL stuff
[17:47] <ogra> LaserJock, right, it calls xinit
[17:47] <LaserJock> mostly because I've never learned SQL
[17:48] <LaserJock> but it seems like any of the cool jobs at Canonical required SQL knowledge
[17:48] <sbalneav> meh
[17:48] <sbalneav> lunch
[17:48] <sbalneav> bbiab
[18:39] <ace_suares> hi back from the university trying to sell open office courses :-)
[18:45] <LaserJock> ace_suares: so is the wiki.edubuntu.org/wiki.ubuntu.com thing clear now?
[18:47] <ace_suares> ogra: ace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki
[18:47] <ace_suares> but they look absolutely different, on my PC.
[18:48] <LaserJock> yep
[18:49] <LaserJock> same content
[18:49] <LaserJock> different skin
[18:49] <ace_suares> ah i see that now
[18:49] <ace_suares> different url in some cases
[18:49] <ace_suares> in other cases not
[18:49] <ace_suares> but i get that too.
[18:49] <LaserJock> you can use the same URL, but there might be redirects
[18:50] <LaserJock> ace_suares: also, it's not a matter of just moving *everything* from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com/community
[18:50] <LaserJock> ace_suares: we need to just move user documentation
[18:50] <ace_suares> so why is in the edubuntu team at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Teams there are no 'leader' 'reporter' etc
[18:51] <ace_suares> LaserJock: i understand that i am just looking around and getting familiar wit it
[18:51] <LaserJock> ace_suares: well, because there is no leader/reporter, etc. and nobody has bothered to fill in the blanks?
[18:52] <LaserJock> ace_suares: we do need to clean up the pages that aren't user documentation, but that's maybe a secondary task
[18:55] <ace_suares> LaserJock: oh..... kay
[18:55] <ace_suares> that clears up a lot of things! he he
[18:55] <LaserJock> that's good ... I think
[18:55] <ace_suares> btw cpngratulations with finishing your disserttation!
[18:55] <LaserJock> thanks
[18:56] <ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu is the actual edubuntu related namespace on the wiki btw
[18:56] <LaserJock> right
[18:57] <LaserJock> something needs to be done with all the /Education stuff
[18:57] <ogra> looking at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/GetHelp#Quick
[18:57] <ogra> it properly forwards to UbuntuLTSP
[18:58] <ogra> heh, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Communication is a bit lame :)
[18:58] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:58] <LaserJock> there is some seriously over-engineered stuff in there
[18:59] <ogra> oh, yeah the Education/ stuff is a mess
[18:59] <LaserJock> I don't know how much of it needs to be kept for Canonical either
[18:59] <ogra> thats all richards marketing plans
[18:59] <LaserJock> perhaps we should email his boss or something?
[18:59] <ogra> and classmate specs
[19:01] <LaserJock> there are a ridiculous amount of wiki pages in the Edubuntu and Education namespaces
[19:01] <ogra> i doubt chris can do much about it
[19:01] <ogra> or demote time to wiki cleanup
[19:01] <LaserJock> I just wonder if that stuff is needed or not
[19:01] <LaserJock> I don't want to delete a bunch of pages he may need
[19:01] <LaserJock> but I'd like to do some cleanup
[19:01] <ogra> well, then mail him
[19:02] <LaserJock> that's kenyon, right?
[19:03] <ogra> yep
[19:03] <ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/SpecPasswordNoEchoEducation *big grin*
[19:04] <LaserJock> heh
[19:04] <ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/HowIsFLOSSLearningDifferentFromNormalEducation oh man, so much about wiki links
[19:05] <LaserJock> lol
[19:05]  * ogra guesses thats from the author of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/CouldFLOSSLearningBePutIntoPracticeInFormalEducation
[19:06] <ogra> which is full of exciting content
[19:11]  * LaserJock is falling asleep listening to dissertation pages printing
[19:14]  * ogra is falling asleep after fighting with ARM code for 14h
[19:14] <ogra> and i guess thats why i call it a day now ...
[19:16] <ace_suares> LaserJock: ogra so where is the LIST of all the pages in the Edubuntu namespace?
[19:16] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you just do a search for Edubuntu in the search box
[19:19] <ace_suares> but then you wont find the pages like thinclientnathowto!
[19:19] <ogra> thats totally unrealted to edubuntu
[19:20] <ace_suares> pgra omg
[19:20] <ace_suares> ogra: omg!
[19:20] <LaserJock> you'd want to do searches for LTSP and ThinClient in that case
[19:20] <ogra> right
[19:20] <ace_suares> so.... to fix up the thinclinet and ltsp docs - my starting quest - i am totally in the wrong group here?
[19:21] <ogra> well ... the ubuntu ltsp people gather here
[19:21] <ace_suares> i mean i should talk with ubuntu-devel and ubuntu website and so on?
[19:21] <ogra> but the starting poitn pointed to from everywhere is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
[19:21] <ace_suares> can you imagine i rather post on my own site :-(
[19:22] <LaserJock> ace_suares: it really doesn't matter
[19:22] <ace_suares> yeah ogra, but that dont get you to thinclientnathowto, and that one is on the wiki not on help
[19:22] <LaserJock> you can talk to us, that's fine
[19:22] <ace_suares> i tought we agrteed to move everything from the wiki to help ?
[19:22] <ogra> thats what the ltsp wiki liks to, the ltspbot in the IRC channel points to and what people like Lns put a lot of work into maintining constantly
[19:22] <ace_suares> teh user docs at least?
[19:22] <LaserJock> ace_suares: correct
[19:22] <ogra> ace_suares, thats one link that was fixed some das ago
[19:22] <ogra> *days
[19:22] <LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP is the portal to all the LTSP user docs
[19:22] <ace_suares> so how do i find a hierachicla list of ALL pages in the wiki ?
[19:23] <ogra> actually some hours before your mail even
[19:23] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you have to do a title search, as we said previously
[19:23] <ace_suares> LaserJock: but then i will only find docs with certain titles...
[19:23] <ace_suares> paginated at that...
[19:23] <ace_suares> not very nice to do some scripting on
[19:23] <LaserJock> you can also do a category search but there's no guarantee that they're all in there
[19:24] <LaserJock> well, there's no scripting involved
[19:24] <ace_suares> categorycleanup is empty for instance which is weird
[19:25] <ogra> i bet it isnt
[19:25] <ogra> it will likely just take a day to assemble all the links from thousands of wikipages
[19:25] <LaserJock> if there are too many pages in a category doesn't it just not show any?
[19:25] <ogra> or time out before
[19:26] <ogra> right
[19:26] <ace_suares> ogra well thats bad isnt it
[19:26] <LaserJock> so you can search for "categorycleanup edubuntu" for instance and probably get some pages
[19:29] <ace_suares> there! Ony 2 days after scott told me 'why don't you post in on the ltsp portal' i have now finally made a link from ubuntultsp to that page about proxy redir! Awesome.
[19:30] <ace_suares> LaserJock: so actually the thincleinthowtonat and the thinclientproxyredirect should be moved from the wiki. to the help. ?
[19:30] <ace_suares> thats what we want to do right?
[19:32] <ogra> "Alternative way to do the above."
[19:32] <ogra> thats a heavy assumption ...
[19:32] <ace_suares> LaserJock: a search like you suggested yileds only three results, the proxy redirect page is not among them :-(
[19:32] <ogra> its a wiki, how do you know nobody puts a link between the two ?
[19:32] <ace_suares> ogra okay there i am a dumb newbie and i did something foolish, what is going to happen now ?
[19:33] <ogra> nothing, just find a better description :)
[19:33] <ace_suares> ogra just for discussion purposes, shouldt YOU find a better description? :-)
[19:34] <ace_suares> the whole concept is that is something wrong, the person who finds it wrong should get involved, and not moan about it and so on... of course i dont want you to do it and i am glad you put my attention there so i cna fix it
[19:34] <ogra> no, because i already worked 14.5h and dont feel like staying on the computer much longer ... just take it as a constructive comment
[19:34] <ace_suares> but if i go to a page and say hey this is wrong i always get the answer : then fix it
[19:34] <ace_suares> there is somehting wrong with that credo i believe
[19:35] <sbalneav> Who's responsibility should it be to fix it, then?
[19:35] <ace_suares> ogra of course i do take it as a constructive commnet but why are my commments or that of many orther not taken as constructive?
[19:35] <ogra> right, i wont fix it, and its not wrong unless someone adds another link belopw the nat howto
[19:35] <ace_suares> sbalneav: good question
[19:35] <ogra> i just pointed out a possible flaw to you
[19:35] <ace_suares> ogra i will fix it becuas it was my overishgt
[19:35] <sbalneav> considering that *EVERY SINGLE PERSON* involved with edubutu is a volunteer :)
[19:36] <sbalneav> Answer: if you find a mistake, and you feel it needs to be corrected, it is, de-facto, *your* responsibility to fix it.
[19:36] <sbalneav> LTSP didn't have local dev support.
[19:36] <sbalneav> I wanted it.
[19:36] <sbalneav> I implemented it. :)
[19:37] <ace_suares> ogra and thanks to bring it to my attention
[19:37] <ace_suares> i am just saying
[19:37] <ace_suares> small things should be fixed by someone on the team
[19:37] <ace_suares> or else there is endless recursion happening
[19:37] <ace_suares> sbalneav: on your question: i guess you normally would say: the one who sees the problem
[19:37] <ace_suares> sbalneav: or maybe 'everyone' would be a good answer too
[19:37] <ogra> sbalneav, oh, btw, there are many files in ltspfs i wrote that dont have any copyright notice with my name ... somehow got lost when you did the autofoo stuff
[19:38] <sbalneav> Add away.
[19:38] <ogra> (ltspfsmounter and many of the other py scripts)
[19:38] <ace_suares> sbalneav: i dont know but the fact is that contributors make this kind of mistakes
[19:38] <sbalneav> right
[19:38] <ogra> sbalneav, will do one day, not now, i'm really tired and wanted to be gone 30min ago
[19:38] <sbalneav> So go :)
[19:38] <ogra> can't ... :) i'm reading here
[19:38] <sbalneav> May waves of angels carry thee to thy sleep :)
[19:39] <ogra> even though i'm not involved with any of that stuff anymore its to exciting to see whats going on :)
[19:40] <ace_suares> i got a whole afternoon ahead of me and still no clue how to clean up the wiki
[19:40] <ace_suares> can not find all pages listed that need moving
[19:40] <sbalneav> I'm sure you'll sort it out.
[19:40] <ace_suares> there changed! thx ogra.
[19:40] <ogra> thanks :)
[19:40] <ace_suares> sbalneav: very encouraging scorry
[19:40] <ace_suares> scotty
[19:41] <ace_suares> what if i dont find it out
[19:41] <ace_suares> will you have lost someone who wants to contribute?
[19:41] <ace_suares> but its' allright
[19:41] <ace_suares> sleep is important too
[19:41] <ace_suares> I got other stuff to do too
[19:42] <ace_suares> and will sit and wait until something comes up again :-)
[19:42] <ogra> btw, a search for the UbuntuLTSP namespace returns 8 pages with awesome ltsp documentation
[19:42] <ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/search.html?cof=FORID%3A9&cx=003883529982892832976%3Ae2vwumte3fq&ie=UTF-8&q=UbuntuLTSP&sa=Search
[19:43] <ace_suares> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ThinClientHowto
[19:43] <ace_suares> so why is that one not under UbuntuLTSP ? Should it be?
[19:44] <ogra> no
[19:44] <ogra> read the note at the top
[19:44] <ogra> we should ahve a "historic documents" category :)
[19:44] <ace_suares> okay i hadn't opened the doc.
[19:44] <ace_suares> ogra seriously?
[19:45] <ace_suares> becuase i will make one right away
[19:45] <ace_suares> so let me rephrase
[19:45] <ogra> well, its the very first thing every written about the ubuntu ltsp5 implementation
[19:45] <ogra> *ever
[19:45] <ace_suares> if ThinClientHowTo was not outdated, then shoul dit go under UbuntuLTSP ?
[19:46] <ace_suares> as in /UbuntuLTSP/ThinClient/ThinClientHowTo ?
[19:46] <ogra> if a doc refers to LTSP in ubuntu and doesnt tell rubbish it should go under UbuntuLTSP
[19:46] <ogra> this doc though refers to ubuntu breezy ... but has a lot of intresting background info about thin client networking
[19:46] <ace_suares> okay so in my quest to move stuff from wiki to help, i need to move ThinClientNATHowTo and ThinClientRedirectProxy to /UbuntuLTSP ?
[19:47] <ace_suares> at least then I would have a job to do :-)
[19:47] <ogra> right, thats proper
[19:47] <ace_suares> pfew
[19:47] <ace_suares> i;ve had job description handed out to me quikcer and clearer :-)
[19:48] <ogra> its simply that nobody needed the nat howto until we had localapps
[19:48] <ogra> so nobody actually bothered to move it
[19:48] <ace_suares> ogra but the good thing is that since we have localapps, someone added a relevant doc!
[19:48] <ogra> just make sure to create all the proper redirects
[19:48] <ace_suares> you mean redirects from the 'old pages' ?
[19:48] <ogra> so people linking to the old page dont get lost
[19:49] <ace_suares> didnt know i had to do that
[19:49] <ogra> sure
[19:49] <ace_suares> the job description was 'move all user docs from wiki to help'
[19:49] <ace_suares> no further specifiactions ...
[19:49] <ogra> well, there might be blogposts or whatnot that link there
[19:49] <ogra> or wvwn other wikipages
[19:49] <ogra> *even
[19:49] <ace_suares> ogra yeah i understand so there's a new point to the job description then, make redirects.
[19:50] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedDrivers
[19:50] <ace_suares> I think of just inserting a line 'this page is now outdated and hoste don help so look there
[19:50] <ogra> thats been one of the most linked pages in ubuntu land long before help.u.c existed for example
[19:51] <ogra> there is a process how to properly get stuff moved
[19:51] <ogra> i think the docteam knows more, i never did that myself
[19:51] <ogra> but that process automatically leaves redirects in place
[19:53] <ace_suares> oh man....
[19:53] <ogra> anyway, really off now ... i have my first conference calls at 6am tomorrow
[19:54] <ace_suares> yeah ogra sweet dreams
[19:54] <ace_suares> bye and thx
[19:54] <ogra> ciao ciao
[19:54] <ace_suares> gotta go now anyway
[23:08] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: link to wiki?