=== _Baby_ is now known as Baby === heHATEme is now known as they === they is now known as vorian [02:49] hi [02:50] I'd like to clean up the www.edubuntu.org website, how to go about that? Who is maintaining now and with what software? [03:05] oops wronmg channel [03:05] bye [03:18] ace_suares: Nope, right channel [03:19] First step would probably be to become an edubuntu member. [03:19] You do that by contributing to edubuntu for a while, then asking the edubuntu council for membership. [03:21] == 1. Edubuntu Website == [03:21] * Phillip Schroder has indicated that he won't have any more time to [03:21] work on website [03:22] So philip used to maintain it, but he's fallen dark lately [03:22] First step would probably be helping to clean up the wiki. [03:24] ace_suares: Also: [03:24] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP [03:27] yawn.... lengthy procedures... yawn... [03:27] I did some digging around and the info is all over the place. [03:28] Do you thionk that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP should be the central place for ltsp related stuff? [03:29] Ans is this http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream the 68 pages of docs you are referring to on the mailing list??? [03:29] What tool is used to update the website? [03:30] Ah the meetings, last week: http://www.nabble.com/Minutes-from-Edubuntu-Meeting,-16-July-2009-td24529541.html [03:31] man the meeting was today... [03:31] I missed it :-( [03:33] ace_suares: Did you not read the part of my email that talked about how being a part of a community might involve some procedures that take a while? [03:33] Unfortunately, I suppressed those parts [03:33] Do you want to take this seriously or not? [03:34] I spent several hours now thinking anout it, doing some research on how actually the current situation is, discussing things [03:34] I've spent 10 years. [03:34] so? [03:34] Yeah on this one topic but there are so many topics [03:34] I've spent 20 years on LOTS of topics. [03:34] I am jus tthinking how I could be involved [03:35] it doesnt seem to fit my style or wishes very much [03:35] Then that's fine. [03:35] No one's forcing anyone to join. [03:35] Of course I do understand not anyone who just flies by can be left to change the website [03:36] And so far, that description fits you to a tee. [03:36] so there is some thing really worth pondering [03:36] I could in my own style very quickly make a website the way it hink it should be done [03:36] You sure could [03:36] and then show it to the group and let them decide if they wanna go with it [03:36] so could 300 other people. [03:36] that woudl avoid the lengthy procedures and keep me interested [03:37] 300 people? [03:37] wow [03:37] that many people actually want to improve the website ? [03:37] Let *who* decide? [03:37] Who's going to decide who goes with what? [03:37] let the same people that decide to become a edubuntu team member do the deciding [03:38] The people who have decided to become edubuntu members (of which there are very few) have *already* decided. [03:38] We have a website [03:38] we have a wiki [03:38] We need people to work on them. [03:38] Okay, thanks [03:39] Good luck in finding them then... [03:39] If every person who comes along says, "I'll work on the site, but only if we completely change how it's done, including hosting, engine, etc.", we'd never get anywhere [03:39] Well, that person can be *you* [03:39] Hi LaserJock [03:39] But you need to work within the structure we've already got. [03:40] My attention is drawn to another round of Warzone 2100 [03:40] OK, have fun with the game. [03:40] been playing that for 40 hours since last friday [03:40] ah, hello folks [03:40] Hi LJ [03:40] ace_suares: did you get my email earlier abot growingupfree.org? [03:41] mhall119 [03:41] yeah didn't look at it [03:41] Maybe i should [03:42] ace_suares: we're trying to promote charity and technology, so feel free to use the wiki to post stories [03:42] okay will do [03:42] or create a blog [03:42] I installed Qimo a coupld of days ago [03:42] wasnt much impressed sorry [03:42] you' [03:43] I'd like to dscuss with you on another channel and another time [03:43] is that okay? [03:43] ace_suares: You'd need to know how to edit a wiki. My offer of instruction still stands. [03:43] you're probably older than our target demographic [03:43] mhall119 i do have kids [03:43] sure, #qimo is out channel [03:43] ace_suares: it was a joke [03:43] kay will see you there in a coupe of days [03:44] if I'm not responding, leave a message and I'll see it when I get back [03:44] sbalneav: editing a wiki is not the hard part. I complained about it because I wanted to make a quick change. Prompted by YOUR remark: why do you post it where no one will read instead of the LTSP portal [03:44] Right. [03:44] Yeah right scotty :-) [03:45] I still feel I am getting nowhere tough [03:45] But I am still here. [03:45] But I'm willing to *show you how to edit a wiki* [03:45] RIGHT NOW [03:45] sbalneav: your offer is much appreciated but I think I can find the manual to the wiki [03:46] it's the way inforamtion is organized that strikes me as inefficient [03:46] and i'd rather talk to you about the structure of the wiki and what is imporetat (that goes first) [03:46] Ok, so what's more efficient than a wiki [03:46] sbalneav: i have no clue [03:47] sbalneav: maybe the wiki is the more efficient but the structure of the information is waht I am talking about [03:47] If you have ideas about how the wiki could be better organized, man, go nuts! [03:47] I do. [03:47] well [03:47] we have to be a bit more analytical [03:47] there are reasons why the wiki is in a bit of a mess [03:47] Or at least I am thinking about that and proabbaly with the help of others it will be an improvement [03:48] a large part is people just randomly "fixing" things [03:48] LaserJock: tell me more ... [03:48] Exactly, so, we're here, right now, lets talk about it. [03:48] ok [03:48] LaserJock: it's inheritable in a wiki thats what a wiki is [03:48] so we have too many wiki pages, on both wikis [03:48] random people do random things [03:48] well [03:48] not necessarily [03:49] result is random information structurew [03:49] but a couple of thoughts [03:49] I am listening. I'll shut up for a while :-) [03:49] 1) we need to figure out what things need to be done, *without* getting bogged down into spending all our time finding what's wrong without fixing it [03:49] 2) we need to clearly separate wiki.ubuntu.com from help.ubuntu.com/community [03:50] 3) good quality, stable documentation needs to most likely move to edubuntu.org [03:50] 4) make good use of the ltsp.org docs [03:50] Thoughts on that when you're done. [03:51] I'm done for the moment [03:51] Ok [03:51] I've been reading up for the last hour or so on moin, and specifically, docbook export/import. [03:52] One of our problems/desires has always been a way to wikify the handbook, go to/from dockbook [03:52] so we can, at release time, take a "snapshot" of the updates, and turn them into yelpable xml for the handboook. [03:53] I've found some xml2mediawiki scripts that could be modified. [03:53] what about moin < -- > html ? [03:53] Here's one suggestion. We'd have to coordinate with whoever: [03:54] making a conversion script shouldn't be hard [03:54] LaserJock: my tought exactly. Why is yelp and docbook needed? [03:54] 1) Create a moin instance on handbook.edubuntu.org [03:54] I can put something together in perl or python if you can't find a good ready-made solution [03:54] mhall119: it sorta is though, one has been in development for a couple years now [03:54] ace_suares: Lots of pepople in third world countries don't have ready/reliable access to the internet. [03:55] if all our docs are internet only, these people are "docless" [03:55] well, it isn't strictly necessary [03:55] sbalneav: forgive my ignorance, but local html structure is not sufficient? [03:55] ace_suares: there isn't a good way of getting HTML to the user [03:55] /usr/share/doc/ltsp/html [03:55] yelp is the defacto help system in Gnome [03:55] ace_suares: XML in yelp gives them a nice searchable interface [03:55] what format does yelp use? [03:55] docbook [03:55] docbook [03:56] ok [03:56] so, back to my idear [03:56] it *can* use HTML too but it's pretty slow if I remember right [03:56] 1) handbook.edubuntu.org [03:56] sbalneav: LaserJock okay so srticking with docbook makes it searchable, good point, i am converted. [03:56] what's a good app for writing docbook files? [03:56] make a first upload of the current handbook + ltsp docs [03:57] 2) let people loose for a while. Maybe have lessons on maintaining structure, etc. [03:57] sbalneav: a style guideline or template would be nice too [03:57] come release time, moin->docbook->edubuntu-handbook.deb [03:57] mhall119: Sure. [03:57] Well, there *is* no good docbook editor, other than vi or emacs :( [03:58] Which is why wikifying it would make it more accessible to the user. [03:58] any apps that will exxport to docbook? [03:58] Moin will, supposedly [03:58] kinda [03:58] which is our wiki [03:59] I'm not convinced of converting formats I don't think [03:59] Well, and if it's not perfect, then we do the old a) patch moin b) send moin patches upstream c) blah blah dance. [03:59] it sounds nice and all [03:59] but we have such a hard time getting the docs put together [03:59] I can imagine all kinds of things going wrong [03:59] if we had it in docbook first, it might work better ging from that to moin [03:59] We have the docbook [04:00] then could we make a simple XSL to turn it into moin markup? [04:00] sbalneav: i like the tought of making an easy accressible starting point and then convert it to something arcane and difficult to maintain. At least the starting point is then more open to contributors [04:00] the problem is, if we wikify it, and ace_suares starts adding pages and pages of good info, then how do we get that BACK into the original xml [04:00] right [04:00] okay then, does moin produce xhtml? [04:00] an individual page isn't a problem [04:00] it's structure that's the issue [04:01] Well, and we'll have to control that, somehow. [04:01] well, we *could* just use moin :-) [04:01] a self-contained moin instance with all our pages [04:01] Then we have to have a web server running on the box in order for people to read docs [04:02] Not impossible, but seems overkill [04:02] If it's a case of having someone to commit to keeping the structure clean, and managing the conversion process, I'll commit to that. [04:03] if it means more people contribute, it's better than the solo effort it is now. [04:03] I don't think we can have anything in place for karmic, it's too soon. But it would be great to have this for the LTS release. [04:03] no, we don't have to have a web server [04:03] If the only reason to use docbook is that it's standard for gnome? [04:03] and I think it's doable in that timeframe. [04:04] Does moin run as a standalone process? [04:04] ace_suares: it's also translatable [04:04] but to make it searchable, can we not create an index page in html ? [04:04] sbalneav: you can yes [04:04] sbalneav: it has it's own little webserver built in [04:04] LaserJock: hmm but is the moin translatable? [04:04] Yeah, that's another + for docbook [04:04] ace_suares: not easily no [04:05] ace_suares: wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community are all English [04:05] We're all talking english here. Translations are something that could be handled the other way. [04:05] LaserJock: so you want translaters to translate docbook and then? export to languagexyz.moin.edubuntu.org? [04:05] well [04:05] I'm not positive [04:05] I'm not sure I like the idea of either wiki or docbook, tbh [04:06] what about updates to the english mon, which result in a new docbook, will the translators easily integrate the translation into that new docbook too? [04:06] the wiki is easy to edit, but it lacks structure and is difficult to get off [04:06] LaserJock: +1 for that last thought [04:06] LaserJock: OK, what else then? I'm open to suggestions. It's in docbook now, but it's just an excercise in text processing to get it into something else. [04:06] docbook is harder to create, but works for local viewing pretty well [04:07] Local viewing's a must, IMHO [04:07] well, I believe ideally we should put as much on edubuntu.org as possible [04:07] well, it is and it isn't [04:07] so there is two issues here, or three: [04:07] it's one of those things where the vast majority of users won't view the local docs [04:07] 1. locally readable AND searchable [04:07] but if they need to they *really* need to [04:07] 2. online easy to edit but with a good strcuture [04:07] 3. translations [04:08] right, and because of my involvement in Brazil, I know a lot of places in SA that *really* need it. [04:08] can we agree on these 3 issues and then work from there [04:08] ace_suares: We already do agree on those three things :) The problem is, there's no good solution that does all three :) [04:09] I think my priorities might be slightly different [04:09] I primarily want to see 1) good structure and 2) good location [04:09] frankly I don't care so much if it's easy to edit [04:09] I'd take easy to maintain over easy to edit [04:09] LaserJock: with 2 you mean good online location? [04:09] both online and offline [04:10] sbalneav: for offline, the only requirement is searchability? [04:10] I don't want it stuck in some remote folder on the users computer and I don't want it at some URL people won't find [04:10] we really don't utilize edubuntu.org [04:10] it's got a CMS for goodness sakes and we hardly use it [04:10] LaserJock: all docs go to /usr/share/doc and maybe you can make a menu itme for it? [04:11] ace_suares: Searchability would be *nice*, but I'd say, from the use case I'm looking to fill, having ANYTHING available offline would be good. [04:11] LaserJock: what CMS is used for the edubuntu.org site? [04:11] drupal [04:11] When I did the handbook in docbook, I got lots of good comments about having it available via yelp. [04:11] sbalneav: if searchability is not an issue i propose the following: [04:11] I think making the docs yelp-able is a big plus [04:11] - for offline reading we use a html copy (mirror, wget, httrack generated) version of the online version [04:12] - and create an index for it (that can be automated i guess). [04:12] Is that workable? can we agree? [04:12] I think Xubuntu (and therefore Qimo) also uses yelp [04:13] personally i dislike yelp, well not yelp but the fact that with most of the apps you press F1 and half a documents shows up... [04:13] ace_suares: It's not just up to us, though. We'd have to discuss it at a meeting. People like Ahmuck, nubae, etc, might also have thoughts, input, etc. [04:13] ace_suares: yelp is the standard help browser though [04:13] also, the docs are nver started up from an app, becaue there is no gui for ltsp [04:13] ace_suares: are you talking about just ltsp docs? [04:14] right, but back in 7.04, off the "Help" icon on the top bar, the edubuntu handbook was one of the toplevel sections. [04:14] sbalneav: i know i just asked it you and lj can agree on that with me. then we can bring it to any meeting :-) [04:15] sbalneav: oh, is there ahelp button? You could make a one page yelp/docbook that links to the proper html docs??? [04:15] sbalneav: ? [04:15] * Ahmuck needs to backread [04:15] mhall119 yes [04:16] Well, it's a fine idea, but others may have better ideas, so until we discuss it at a meeiting, I'll just say, if going from moin->html will allow us to move forward, and there's no other better option, I'd be happy with it. [04:16] sbalneav: you summoned Ahmuck :-) [04:16] sbalneav: good enough for me [04:16] I would generally favor not using the wiki [04:16] in terms of deliverable stuff [04:16] Okay we are now in part 2 of my 3 point list :-) [04:16] * sbalneav casts mysitcal attack of Ahmuck summoning +1 with fireball. [04:17] * Ahmuck wakes up from my sleep and shakes the icicles off of his fur [04:17] I would rather take the wild wild west that is the wiki and turn that content into docbook [04:17] Where's my 20 sided dice, I need a saving throw [04:17] and then maybe try to do docbook -> edubuntu.org [04:17] * ace_suares is struck with awe at the rise of the might Ahmuck [04:17] LaserJock: That was my first idea :) [04:17] but the other consideration here [04:17] is that currently Ubuntu documentation is not written as a guide [04:18] but rather a set of individual topics [04:18] indivudual topics can be joined to be a guide [04:18] LJ yeah and the topic overlap, are misnamed, sometimes outdated etc etc [04:18] That was why I was suggesting the handbook.edubuntu.org, to conceptually separate it from the other [04:18] my problem with ubuntu documentation is that information overload - google wise [04:18] right [04:18] i.e. topics regular place, guide on handbook. [04:19] I'm not sure how easy it would be to have a handbook.edubuntu.org [04:19] we'd have to get CIS involved [04:19] but it's a good idea I think [04:19] If we don't ask, the answer's no :) [04:19] sbalneav: you are proposing a seperate handbook website and a 'topics' website. [04:19] Right. [04:19] CIS ? bot, please explain! [04:19] we already have the topics [04:19] !CIS [04:19] Sorry, I don't know anything about CIS [04:20] if we create the handbook, that can be the "guide" site. [04:20] ace_suares: Canonical Information System [04:20] ace_suares: the sysadmins for ubuntu [04:20] LJ wow gooooood acronym [04:20] LaserJock: Who would I beg/pester/buy a beer for on that? [04:20] maybe the EC [04:20] and then we can do a formal proposal to CIS [04:21] I can start an initial dialogue, and have a "No friggin way/mmmmmmmaybe/Sure! When you want it" answer for the next meeting [04:21] sbalneav: I think a good idea to seperate the two. The handbook is for 'setting it all up' and the topics is for 'X on Thincan deosnt work' [04:21] well, it'd be possible [04:21] right. [04:21] but the question is will it be easy enough to make it worth while [04:21] And, to get the initial content for handbook, we just docbook -> wiki [04:21] we don't have direct access to the machine [04:21] instant content [04:22] we clean it up [04:22] people contribute [04:22] yawn... another lengthy procedure... why not just host the testverson somehwere and then when it's ready pester CIS/EC/politburo/Mark ? [04:22] so it'd need to be either a wiki instance or a part of the drupal instance [04:22] I doubt they want to set up yet another wiki [04:22] then wiki -> docbook, and instant yelp docks/pdf heck we can ever generate html from the docbook [04:22] and if it's in drupal we might as well do edubuntu.org/handbook [04:22] LJ so the site is drupal? doesnt' that have tons of good features like wiki inside drupal ??? [04:23] http://cwgordon.com/how-to-create-a-wiki-with-drupal [04:23] ace_suares: dude, you run a business. Do you just get people to hand you cash under the table, or do you participate in lenghtly procedures like filing taxes, registering business names, sending invoices, etc. [04:24] ace_suares: stuff like that, but any plugin has to go through a security review [04:24] cash under the table at all times preferred [04:24] procedures are what keeps the order (what there is) from becoming total chaos [04:24] sbalneav: apparently not if you look at hte current wiki. smile. [04:24] right [04:24] I hate to say it, but I'm not really sure this is a technical issue [04:25] so.... LETS FOLLOW PROCEDURE AND DO IT RIIIIIIIIIGGGGHT!!!!!!! [04:25] LJ of course the security reveiw is needed [04:25] yeeesh :) [04:25] we basically always come back to: do it they way we do it, but better [04:25] we just don't have people actually doing stuff [04:25] how are you going to get the "guide" to the top of googling? [04:25] other than sbalneav of course :-) [04:26] And LaserJock , and a few others [04:26] I'm certainly not alone. [04:26] I am just saying this: we don't know what will really work. Moin, wiki, docbook, conversions, drupal, drupal with wiki... lets set up some snadboxes and evaluate, predesign, prestructure and such. [04:26] THEN follow procedures [04:26] there's just soooo much to do. [04:26] ace_suares: set it up then [04:27] LJ how the hell can i DO stuff when there is no plan where to go and apart from that all kinds of hurdles? [04:27] That was wat trigered for me the whole new involvement in edubuntu [04:27] well [04:27] I can tell you exactly what to do [04:27] :-) [04:27] mhall119 i will but not if it's frowned upon [04:27] lj well, tell me see if I already know and rejected it :-) [04:27] sit and wait ? [04:28] ace_suares: do it with your own resources [04:28] There *is* a procedure. But it takes time. [04:28] what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community [04:28] sit and wait worked great. I sat and waited for localdev - great! now localapps - great! [04:28] It takes 3 years, minimum to become a debian developer. [04:28] mhall119 of course i have plentuy of that. [04:28] ace_suares: don't we all :) [04:28] sbalneav: dont want to be a debian dev ata ll [04:28] and then we need to take all the help.ubuntu.com/community content and find what stuff needs to go upstream to LTSP and structure the rest [04:29] sbalneav: some of us don't care about becoming deb devs [04:29] But you want to contribute to this, right? [04:29] Ahmuck: Same here [04:29] my contribution at this point might be small [04:29] I'm not one [04:29] i've diversified my labor in the last year [04:29] I'm a Debian Maintainer, so that sorta counts ;-) [04:29] Heck, I'm not even a motu [04:29] i hang in edubuntu/ltsp in the hopes that it will bloom [04:30] ok, but let's take a breath here for a sec [04:30] LJ what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community -> okay, that's a clear enough task. Dont' know what it mounts to but if you assure me that's the way and not a krate kid excersise, i am willing to do just that in the coming week. [04:30] though reading the current docs did help alot. it also opened up questions [04:30] ace_suares: there is a already a technology and process in place, if you think your idea is better, you're gonna have to prove it on your own first [04:30] mhall119 :) been there with the local city council. ur right, that's the way it works [04:30] basically we have quite a few people who would like to contribute something [04:31] mhall119 yeah understood [04:31] but they don't have time to really dig into everything and become and expert [04:31] LS good point [04:31] LJ good point [04:31] that's my understanding of ace_suares' dilemma [04:31] LJ not just me. Did you read the 5th grade teachers story? Amazing. i am sure that's why sbalneav is doing it all!!! [04:32] but he (the teacher) can hardly contribute in a worthwile manner [04:32] we are in a new era with documentation and translation being community too not just coding [04:32] so what we need is some core people who can guide the small contributions along and most importantly provide overall structure [04:33] Well, currently, I'm probably the closest we have to the handbook/docs maintainer [04:33] LJ agree but there is the question on how much time for these core people, wont stuff get stuck when a core person sleeps for a liong time, etc [04:33] the reason the wiki gets out of hand is not that it's a wiki, it's because it's random small contributions without any oversight [04:33] LJ i'd like to postpone the 'editorial model' for a while [04:33] ace_suares: the idea would be to have more than one person [04:33] If we can find a way to go from wiki -> docbook and back, I'm willing to: [04:33] 1) spearhead the process [04:34] 2) maintain the wiki (since I now don't have to maintain docbook docs,but rather just the translation process) [04:34] 3) mentor the new people coming in. [04:34] I don't particularly see the wiki as a end point for docs [04:34] they're not [04:35] they're the raw input [04:35] sbalneav: and run me by why we need to go from wiki -> docbook? I tought proposal was to go from wiki -> html [04:35] well [04:35] but within the user community it seems to me that wiki's are seen as end points for docs [04:35] I think we need both [04:35] well, obviously, the docbook can contain: [04:35] wiki -> docbook for local reading and wiki -> edubuntu.og for majority of use [04:35] LJ I reacted on your 'what needs to be done'. But you didn't react back [04:35] wiki information AND docbook specific info. [04:36] ace_suares: ok, right, yeah, I wanted to get back to that [04:36] getting the user docs off of wiki.ubuntu.com is really important [04:36] but it can be a bit tedious [04:37] ace_suares: Well, if we're going to go wiki -> anything , we might as well go wiki to docbook, since you can already go docbook -> (pdf|html|plaintext [04:37] okay tedious is not nice but it needs be done and is relatively brainless [04:37] |manpage|etc) [04:37] I think there's something over 300 Edubuntu related wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com [04:37] I don't know how many are on help.ubuntu.com/community [04:37] sbalneav: but if we cant do wiki-> docbook 9which is uncertain) we can do wiki -> html for the local files yes? [04:38] *iff* we can't. We haven't tried yet, and my current information indicates that we might be able to. [04:38] LaserJock: I'll study it and report about the estimated time it will take. Also, i was just here for ltsp.. hmmm.... [04:38] well [04:38] But yes, if we CAN'T go wiki->docbook, then wiki to html is fine. [04:38] sbalneav: if we can do wiki-> docbook automated, it's a-ok with me. [04:38] ace_suares: I would encourage you to work on what you care about [04:39] wiki -> docbook is doable, but time consuming [04:39] Well, heck, of COURSE it will be automated :) I'm not going to do it manually :) [04:39] wiki -> HTML -> edubuntu.org is more of a beast to figure out [04:39] LS that would be like encouraging a rock to sit in the rain :-) [04:39] heh [04:39]