=== asac__ is now known as asac === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === _Baby_ is now known as Baby === spm changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Alpha-3 soft-freeze | DebianImportFreeze in effect | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-jaunty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === heHATEme is now known as they [00:59] hi === they is now known as vorian === Pici` is now known as Pici [03:41] bryce: around? [03:42] indeed === MobileMyles6o7 is now known as TwoToneSpirit === bdefreese2 is now known as bddebian === WelshDragon is now known as Fluffles === cprov is now known as cprov-zzz [06:00] Good morning === rgreening_ is now known as rgreening [07:20] pitti: I see there are currently no studio alpha images on the tracker to test. Has the tracker even been updated for ubuntu/kubuntu etc images yet, or is it just studio that hasn't been updated? [07:22] TheMuso: I think I just missed it, hang on [07:23] TheMuso: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/20090722.1/ should hopefully work [07:23] TheMuso: added to tracker, thanks [07:23] pitti: np thanks. [07:26] pitti, i may have some livecd-rootfs changes that will fix one of serious bugs for mythbuntu ISOs. i'm verifying right now that it actually fixes things with a local run of livecd-rootfs [07:33] superm1: thanks; infinity, would a livecd-rootfs upload need any manual treatment for the buildds, or does it "just happen"? [07:34] pitti: The buildds will upgrade once a day for livecd-rootfs, but it's at like 1:15am DC time [07:34] StevenK: ah, thanks [07:43] superm1: bug 403289, that wasn't due to gdm then? gdm was recently fixed to not pull in gnome-session any more [07:43] Launchpad bug 403289 in mythbuntu "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, launches into gnome" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403289 [07:44] pitti, i think it's because somehow a recommends is pulling in a whole bunch of gnome because of the order of dependency resolution for live disk builds [07:45] because mythbuntu doesn't use the tasks for LIST and LIVELIST (some problems earlier this year with doing so) [07:45] superm1: you're using custom.conf in bug 403290 now? [07:45] Launchpad bug 403290 in mythbuntu-common "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, automatic login can't be reconfigured" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403290 [07:45] superm1: (sorry, gdm.conf and gdm-cdd.conf have gone entirely) [07:45] as for bug 403290, yeah i've adjusted the code to use custom.conf [07:45] didn't realize gdm-cdd.conf was gone entirely, will be uploading to fix that bug shortly [07:46] with gdm-cdd.conf being gone, i'm not sure how to fix or even address bug 403291 though [07:46] Launchpad bug 403291 in mythbuntu-default-settings "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, default session is not mythbuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403291 [07:47] pitti: Autologin is completly broken for UNR too [07:47] pitti: But I suspect you knew that already :-) [07:48] * ogra hugs pitti [07:48] StevenK: just trawling through the bugs [07:48] pitti, thanks for moving udhcpc [07:49] superm1: Hmm, perhaps your seeds need some clean up to stop metacity and co getting installed? [07:49] no prob, got approved recently [07:50] it will indeed bloat the alternate CD ... with 23k more :) [07:51] StevenK, any easy way to do such things? [07:51] superm1: Easiest way is to check the germinate output, since it contains a "Why" column [07:52] superm1: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive//germinate-output/mythbuntu.karmic/all [07:52] StevenK: autologin> you mean bug 403309 ? [07:52] but since we install with metapackages rather than tasks, is that valid? [07:52] Launchpad bug 403309 in gdm "gdm fails automatic login and gets stuck in a loop" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403309 [07:52] StevenK: (just asked for custom.conf there) [07:52] mvo, ! [07:52] the man i wanted to talk to ! [07:52] hey og [07:53] ra [07:53] StevenK, but i suppose if we can rid them from there we can switch to tasks for livecd-rootfs [07:53] mvo, i want to make it impossible to upgrade from jaunty to karmic for certain armel machines, can you point me to the right place to put a script that checks /proc/cpuinfo ? [07:54] StevenK, so in looking through that, it claims that metacity comes in from gnome-control-center which comes from gnome-panel, which comes from gnome-panel-dbg, but it doesn't go any further up the chain, so how do I rid that out of there? [07:55] superm1: Yeah, I sort of fell over there too [07:56] ogra: upate-manager and there DistUpgrade/DistUpgradeQuirks.py - if you give me the details (what to look for in cpuinfo) I can add it quickly for you if oyu want [07:56] StevenK, so perhaps is there a way I can just blacklist gnome-panel from the seed and hope for the best then? [07:58] mvo, i'll work out a patch for you, essentially it should block if the "Processor" line of /proc/cpuinfo contains anything thats smaller than ARMv6 or ARMv7, thanks for the pointer [07:58] ogra: ok, thanks [08:00] superm1: my feeling is that it's not worth re-rolling the isos just for bug 403290, since a mere upgrade will fix it as well; WDYT? [08:00] Launchpad bug 403290 in mythbuntu-common "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, automatic login can't be reconfigured" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403290 [08:00] StevenK: UNR uses autologin by default, which would make bug 403309 kind of a showstopper? [08:00] Launchpad bug 403309 in gdm "gdm fails automatic login and gets stuck in a loop" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403309 [08:01] pitti, agree, not just for bug 403290. bug 403289 and bug 403291 however if a solution can be came up with would be worth a reroll [08:01] Launchpad bug 403289 in mythbuntu "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, launches into gnome" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403289 [08:01] Launchpad bug 403291 in mythbuntu-default-settings "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, default session is not mythbuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403291 [08:01] StevenK: I'm trying to understand where the autologin configuration happens (gdm itself works just fine with autologin, but behaves that way if you specify an invalid user) [08:01] pitti: The livecd does, but doesn't desktop also do that? [08:01] superm1: right; bug 403291 might need gdm changes, let me check the code about the default session [08:02] StevenK: it works there (we don't default to it, too) [08:02] StevenK: I recently fixed that in user-setup (which wrote "AutomaticLogin=ubuntu" instead of $USER) [08:02] Ahh [08:02] pitti: Right, so it sounds good to get a re-roll for this [08:03] StevenK: might it be that this bug somehow crept into the UNR image builder as well? [08:03] StevenK: I don't really know how the .img is put together, I'm afraid; is that a standard live system with ubiquity? [08:03] StevenK: oh argh, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook-remix/daily-live/20090722/karmic-netbook-remix-i386.manifest [08:03] indeed, it has the old ubiquity [08:04] pitti: Karmic UNR is now an .iso [08:04] StevenK: so, if I re-roll them now, can someone test the new images soon? [08:04] pitti: Sure [08:04] started [08:05] I'll fiddle the bugs now [08:05] StevenK, is there a nice command I can run to generate that germinate output myself so I can tweak with adding packages to blacklist in mythbuntu.karmic and seeing if that improves things? [08:06] superm1: That bit I'm not sure about, sorry [08:16] superm1: I followed up to bug 403291 with the gdm analysis, FYI [08:16] Launchpad bug 403291 in mythbuntu-default-settings "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, default session is not mythbuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403291 [08:16] superm1: however, I don't think we'll manage to fix this in the next couple of hours, TBH [08:17] superm1: so perhaps mythbuntu A3 could/should be released later? or you just skip A3 entirely? [08:17] pitti, if 403289 can be sorted out, we can go out a little later, otherwise we'll have to skip A3 [08:18] based on your analysis, i agree that bug 403291 would likely be a moot point if 403289 is solved [08:18] Launchpad bug 403291 in mythbuntu-default-settings "9.10 A3 candidate ISO, default session is not mythbuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403291 [08:18] superm1: I'm just on holiday from tomorrow until Tuesday, so we'd have to defer it for a bit [08:19] pitti, ah i see. well i'll spend a little more tonight playing more with germinate. if no luck then we'll plan to evaluate options after the weekend then [08:19] and i'll discuss it with my team and see what they think is the best [08:19] superm1: I'm sorry for that :/ === tkamppeter__ is now known as tkamppeter [08:31] lol, I just got two spam mails from facebook which want to become friends with "Apport" [08:32] pitti: we should start a LP group first. 'Apport facebook friends' [08:32] neither Apport nor me personally have ever come close to Facebook, so I wonder why I get these now :/ [08:33] beh [08:35] StevenK: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook-remix/daily-live/20090723/ (also added to tracker) [08:36] pitti: Thanks! [08:36] would be cool if you could give them a quick test === apachelogger is now known as birthdaylogger [08:58] TheMuso: hm, I don't see ubuntustudio in earlier alpha announcements, how is that usually handled? do you send our your own announcement? [08:59] TheMuso: then again, there's no karmic/ on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/ [09:10] pitti, okay it appears that the livecd-rootfs change i made got rid of most of the gnome stuff and kept what mattered [09:11] superm1: nice [09:11] so if you can reroll with the newer livecd-rootfs, I can grab in the morning and verify [09:11] superm1: as StevenK said, the buildds will only upgrade in about 15 hours :/ [09:12] so, plenty of time to get it tested and uploaded [09:12] superm1: but that way you could annouce mythbuntu alpha-3 on Monday or so [09:12] pitti, okay that should be fine. gives extra time to mirror and what not too after testing [09:12] superm1: I won't be there, but I'm sure Riddell or someone else will push the publish-release button for you [09:13] pitti: But it can be done manually [09:13] StevenK: right, but both lamont and infinity are asleep right now [09:15] pitti: we didn't release previous alphas due to problems that hadn't been addressed by the time those alphas came out [09:15] related to the realtime kernel [09:15] TheMuso: ah, so want me to release this one now? === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan [09:46] pitti: if I wanted to add the support for collecting data from touchpads to apport, what part of apport should I work on? [09:46] tseliot: package hook for xserver-xorg-input-synaptic? [09:46] pitti: yes, exactly [09:47] tseliot: it probably should be added to the generic xorg package hook [09:47] /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_xorg.py [09:47] tseliot: all other X packages symlink to that [09:47] tseliot: it's in x11-common I think [09:47] (dpkg -S) [09:48] pitti: also, could I add a small C program (with no external dependencies) that I wrote? [09:49] it simply uses a system call to extract data from the touchpad [09:49] tseliot: you can't do that in Python? [09:49] tseliot: the package is currently arch:all [09:49] tseliot: but of course you could add that helper to the -synaptics package, and call it from the hook [09:50] pitti: no, it can't be done from Python [09:50] pitti: but yes, I can add it to -synaptics as you say [09:51] tseliot: what does it need to do? [09:52] pitti: the C program lists input devices and extracts their ids, names, etc. [09:53] this would be useful for quirks [09:53] furthermore I would like to collect the output of xinput too [09:53] tseliot: isn't that pretty much what udevadm gives you arleady? [09:54] pitti: it's what lsinputs does but I stripped it down and changed a few things [10:02] pitti: I've just tried udevadm but it doesn't give me what I need [10:08] TheMuso: did anyone test the current studio images? iso tracker says 0/4 [10:20] StevenK: does the current UNR image now do what it should? [10:20] * ccheney is so tired [10:20] been up since Jul 22 13:00 UTC [10:21] pitti: I'm still having a look [10:21] another 9-10 hour before i can go to sleep too :-\ [10:22] ccheney: jetlag? [10:22] pitti: i can't sleep on planes and flew to madrid then have a 6 hour layover before the train to caceres [10:24] really its more i can't sleep sitting up [10:24] ccheney: ah, debconf? [10:24] yea [10:32] ccheney, july 22 ? which year ? [10:34] ogra: er yesterday ;-P [10:34] so about 30 hour or so when i finally get to the hotel [10:36] ccheney: Not even things like Melatonin help? [10:37] servus mvo [10:37] hey glatzor [10:38] mvo, I reimplemented the twisted deferreds using the gobject main loop [10:38] StevenK: i didn't try it this time but in the past it didn't seem to [10:39] pitti: why is there a udev task on bug #403381 ? [10:39] Launchpad bug 403381 in udev "jaunty->karmic server upgrade results in two versions of postgresql installed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403381 [10:39] udev? that's wrong [10:39] StevenK: of course my flight wasn't that long just managed to lose the night in the process, the main flight started at the equivalent of ~ 4pm for me and was only 7-8 hr long [10:39] pitti: you added it ;-) [10:39] argh [10:40] Keybuk: accidentally clicked on a canned response, sorry [10:40] fixed [10:40] but I'm sure that we could have fixed it in udev as well :-P [10:40] hey glatzor [10:40] glatzor: you rock! [10:40] StevenK: melatonin seems to help reset my internal clock though when i finally do go to bed after travelling [10:40] * mvo hugs g'magic'tzor [10:40] servus pitti === yofel_ is now known as yofel [11:05] morning pitti, I'm having a look at the translations imports queue for karmic, and I've noticed a few debian/po-up/patches.pot (for e.g. gnome-panel) and similar templates. Without having had a closer look at it before, I always assumed that patches were first applied and then a single template was produced (when the package had only one). Is this something new or am I missing the point? [11:05] what are those templates? [11:07] dpm, those are a debian thing to do translations for debian changes [11:10] seb128: is this a common practice? Could we somehow track the Ubuntu/Debian translation changes due to patches with those? [11:10] dpm, no it's marginal I think we should not bother and just use launchpad [11:16] seb128: ok, thanks. I was just wondering, because (without having thought oo much on the implementation) perhaps it could be used to mark in Rosetts those strings which are only specific to Ubuntu. But then again, it might also introduce a special case in Launchpad which would not be desirable. [11:17] dpm, all debian changes are not marked this way though [11:19] ok, but within a single package which produces a separate .pot for patches, are generally all changes which affect strings collected in a single separate template? [11:22] dpm, it seems so [11:24] pitti: Autologin looks great with the new spin [11:24] \o/ [11:25] seb128: is it trivial to produce those separate templates for patches? I'm just wondering whether it would be useful to try to generalise that practice [11:26] dpm, should be trivial, it's a one line cdbs rules [11:27] dpm, I've not been looking to much into that I don't want po in the source package since that means you need upload to change translations [11:27] dpm, debian do that because they have no language packs they can use [11:31] StevenK, lool: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/karmic/alpha-3/ currently talks about the UNR "CD" [11:31] given that it's way over 700 MB, what should it say instead? Are people expected to use usb-creator to write an image? [11:32] seb128: but this would just introduce a change in which we have the same situation as now (package produces a pot on build) plus a second template for the patches also generated on build, wouldn't it? Is it not how it is done in gnome-session? That's one of the packages where I first spotted this additional template. [11:33] dpm, I don't know the specific, I never used the system, it just add lot of cruft in the source package since it build template and po for all of those in the debian directory [11:33] dpm, look the gnome-session source for details [11:34] seb128: I'll do, thanks [11:34] dpm, in fact I was cleaning that cruft out in some packages when I resynced on debian, I think it doesn't bring us anything and is noisy [11:35] Riddell: is there an equivalent for usb-creator in Kubuntu? [11:35] i. e. something that people can use to put an .iso to an USB stick? [11:36] pitti, the bzr version of usb-creator has a kde variant now [11:37] pitti, I'm waiting for that to land in karmic for some weeks now to switch it to gtkbuilder dunno why they don't upload to karmic [11:37] evand, ^ [11:37] so how do KDE folks test these images then? [11:38] seb128: by cleaning that cruft you mean getting the package to build one single pot as usual? I think this might be the best approach for now, as otherwise I don't know what to do with those extra templates in the import queue. I think it might be worth considering if they might be useful in the future as I was saying earlier, but for now it think it might be best to stick to the more general practice of building one single template [11:38] seb128: I'll do it now. I've been hoping to finish the devicekit backend first, but that's not going to happen quickly [11:38] StevenK, lool: please cross-check http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/karmic/alpha-3/, I updated the desdcription [11:39] evand, thanks, will you port the gnomevfs code to gvfs? or patches are welcome for that? same for gtkbuilder [11:39] patches are welcome, but if no one else steps up, I'll surely fix those problems before UI freeze [11:39] evand: you are actually using dk-disks, or libgdu? (the latter should be much nicer) [11:39] * Riddell just tests netbook images from DVDs currently [11:39] pitti: dbus to devicekit [11:40] evand: devicekit-disks, I assume [11:40] err devicekit-disks [11:40] ok [11:40] yes [11:40] evand, ok, I will rank it low on my list, I would prefer to focus on things which will not get done otherwise ;-) [11:40] seb128: sure thing :) [11:40] Riddell: ok, I'm fine with changing the text to "DVD", if that's fine with you for alpha-3? [11:40] pitti, does devicekit-power still have APM support or did it completely switch to ACPI only ? [11:40] evand, in fact I did the gtkbuilder conversion locally but you have a very weird hack which I blocked on [11:40] oh? [11:41] evand, some [11:41] for widget in self.builder.get_objects(): [11:41] if isinstance(widget, gtk.Label): [11:41] widget.set_property('can-focus', False) [11:41] evand, that's the non working gtkbuilder version [11:41] ahh, that can probably go away [11:41] pitti: have the UNR guys expressed an opinion? [11:41] ogra: well, neither really; it just uses /sysfs [11:41] it was there to address a bug in ubiquity, if memory serves [11:42] and it somehow got copied over [11:42] Riddell: I pinged them above, but no response yet; I changed it to usb-creator for now [11:42] evand, well it seems it's to make text not being selected when using tab [11:42] pitti, oh, i thought it inly looked in the acpi subpaths [11:42] evand, but if gtk does it that's for a reason, ie no need to try to change it by weird hacks in your software, better to be consistent with other applications [11:42] ogra: sysfs_get_string (native_path, "status") for battery status, etc. [11:43] seb128: indeed [11:43] ogra: and pm-utils for the suspend/resume stuff [11:43] I'll tear it out in trunk [11:43] (which also uses sysfs) [11:43] ah, ok so it doesnt restrict itself to /sys/bus/acpi/ [11:43] (i'll likely need to look into APM support for armel) [11:44] i. e. whatever is behind (APM/ACPI) should export proper sysfs attributes, then it should just work [11:44] Keybuk: hi [11:44] yep [11:44] so its a kernel thing then, thanks [11:44] mat_t: hi [11:44] Keybuk: is there a maximum number of legacy OSs that can be installed at the time? [11:44] (or udev FWIW) [11:44] ogra: udev can't change /sys [11:45] ok [11:45] Keybuk: I'm asking primarily in the context of the OS switcher [11:49] mat_t: is there a maximum length to a piece of string? [11:49] pitti: Looks good [11:50] pitti: "Choose this if you are at all unsure." in the only UNR image is a bit too much [11:50] mat_t: any limit I tell you today will almost certainly be wrong in a year's time ;-) [11:50] Keybuk: I see [11:50] lool: heh, ok [11:50] mat_t: so design and code for no limit [11:50] Otherwise ok [11:50] lool: removed [11:50] (I wonder where the up to 10" comes from though) [11:51] Keybuk: perfect, thanks :) [11:51] I've seen people run UNR on regular laptops :) [11:53] lool: It's probably hysterical raisins now [11:54] pitti: seems there is now also a workaround for me :) (regarding the external harddrive problem - you are debugging it with someone else again) [11:55] sebner: bug 387161? what is it? [11:55] Launchpad bug 387161 in linux "Koala: External SATA->USB Drive no longer being identified properly" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/387161 [11:56] pitti: yep, just discovered that my bug was marked as duplicated of this bug, /me is going to uninstall devicekit-disks later to see if this also fixes the issue for me [11:57] it's just a short-term workaround, though [11:59] pitti: of course but better than nothing. /me is just wondering why this is working because I thought devicekit-disks is *needed* to deal with hardware [12:03] sebner: right, gnome is using it now [12:04] pitti: why is a external drive then working when it is needed for hardware and gnome using it? ^^ [12:05] sebner: that's a miracle [12:06] lol [12:07] pitti: the magic of open source? *cough* might it have any negative effects if I remove it, besides that it might fix my external harddrive? [12:07] sebner: did you reboot after removal? or sudo killall devkit-disks-daemon? [12:07] gvfs doesn't build the hal monitor any more [12:07] pitti: didn't remove it yet [12:07] so it shouldn't be able to detect usb sticks and the like any more [12:07] oh [12:11] pitti: so downgrading gfvs as well? [12:12] sebner: you probably need to [12:12] pitti: argh, removing devicekit-disks will remove half of my system [12:12] sebner: well, you can't remove dk-disks without removing gvfs, it's a dependency [12:12] and GNOME depends on gvfs [12:12] anyway, food time [12:12] pitti: it seemed possible though ?! [12:12] hf [12:21] pitti: my program requires root privileges. Can it still be used by an apport hook? === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch === cprov-zzz is now known as cprov [13:28] The postgresql-common upload to karmic today - why is that 100.1 instead of 100ubuntu1 ? [13:29] maxb, probably a nmu [13:29] mok0: I don't understand [13:30] It was a direct upload to Ubuntu, not a sync [13:31] maxb: merged nmu? [13:32] A merge would normally still have "ubuntu" in its version string [13:32] maxb: probably a glitch from pitti as he's also the debian maintainer for it [13:32] maxb, it's an nmu synced from debian afacs === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow [13:33] mok0: The changesfile lists the distribution as karmic, so I prefer geser's explanation [13:34] Also, "100.1" isn't a nmu version string [13:34] maxb. yeah [13:34] maxb: 100 is latest debian release [13:35] yup. A nmu would be labelled as 100+nmu1 [13:36] maxb, I assumed you were quoting a version string before checking [13:36] I was quoting a version string? [13:36] maxb: no :-) [13:37] Sorry, I mean: I *was* quoting a version string, are you suggesting I wasn't? [13:37] maxb I thought you were quoting the release part of the version string [13:38] aha :-) [13:38] maxb, I was wondering about the huge number [13:38] mm, 100 debian revisions for a single upstream would be impressive [13:39] though sysvinit is more than half way there [13:40] cron is at -106 already [13:41] implies very low upstream activity [13:42] the postgresql-common problem is discussed in bug 403381 [13:42] Launchpad bug 403381 in bacula "jaunty->karmic server upgrade results in two versions of postgresql installed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403381 [13:43] looks like it could be a temporary fix [13:43] and that pitti wants it to go away automatically at next sync [13:43] very low activity indeed: -35 was uploaded in Dec 1996 (the Debian changelog doesn't reach further back) [13:44] geser: cron is a legacy package now, right? [13:44] it is? why would it be? [13:45] Because anacron is being installed by default [13:45] And aren't there discussions about moving to Apple's launchd ? [13:46] don't they do separate things? [13:46] hyperair: afaik launchd is a reimplementation of cron [13:47] is it? [13:47] hmm [13:47] (i was referring to anacron vs cron) [13:47] but with better security and flexibility [13:47] launchd is more than crond. [13:47] hyperair: ah [13:47] what's wrong with crond? [13:47] and we don't have a launchd package around, do we? [13:48] hyperair: I imagine it has something to do with the /etc/cron.d/ directories [13:48] hmm [13:48] oh yeah, that. [13:48] hyperair: so packages can drop files in there [13:48] so how would you secure something of that sort? [13:48] without losing the said functionality [13:49] * mok0 googles crond vs launchd [13:49] tseliot: no, I'm afraid not [13:49] Upstart will implement the cron/at/anacron/whatever functionality in the future. Upstart’s design is better than launchd’s IMO. [13:49] geser:, maxb, mok0: it was a bzr head snapshot [13:50] no reason to upload to debian for just that [13:50] and the next time it will autosync, right [13:50] pitti: ok, thanks [13:50] http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2005/04/macosx-10-4.ars/5 [13:51] mvo, mind to take a look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/227208/ ? [13:52] mok0, hyperair: http://www.netsplit.com/2006/08/26/upstart-in-universe/ heading “How does it differ from launchd?” [13:54] mvo, You can take a look at the new code: lp:~aptdaemon-developers/aptdaemon/gdefer [13:54] mvo, I've only converted the GetTrustedVendorKeys method to the new gobject based deferreds [13:55] mvo, yet. I am away now for some days! See you. [13:55] ion, ah, so it's upstart rather than launchd [13:56] doko: about doublechecking if a MIR is really needed: I was thinking on reviewing package bug history, is there any better way, like some official list of MIR-ed packages ? [13:56] http://upstart.ubuntu.com/faq.html#replace-cron [13:58] ion, oh crond (launchd) capability is _planned_ but not currently in upstart [13:58] ttx: I would just look at Sources from jaunty if the package was in main [13:59] crond is still not equal to launchd. [13:59] In some areas, Upstart is far beyond launchd in functionality. [13:59] doko: ok, thx [14:00] ion, apple uses launchd to replace crond [14:00] Yes [14:01] As well as inetd and initd. [14:01] ion, didn't know that [14:01] ion, although I am typing this from my Powerbook G4 :-) [14:07] hmm the article said that upstart was to have reached stage #6 by edgy+2, which was gutsy. [14:07] that's so long ago, and we're not even there yet! =O [14:07] From upstart webpage "Events may be received from any other process on the system" -- I hope there's a decent authorization system in place [14:10] what kind of events do you want to limit access to? [14:12] The usual. If you have write access to init’s UNIX socket or the system bus, you can talk to init. [14:13] /etc/dbus-1/system.d/Upstart.conf [14:14] If a single process controls almost everything, it also gives blackhats more options for making trouble [14:15] Just sayin' [14:15] * ogra wonders if mok0 is aware of the PID init had since it existed [14:15] i wouldn't say that. [14:16] i think it's more of giving blackhats something to focus on attacking. [14:16] rather than giving them more options [14:16] ok [14:16] Instead of D-Bus handling the access policy, so you have a single chunk of code to audit, every piece of software should NIH its own, so you have to audit all of them? [14:16] ogra: looks good, just commit [14:16] mvo, thanks :) not hard to understand the code :) [14:18] ion, good point [14:19] ion, but the fundamental design better be right [14:19] Feel free to inspect the fundamental design. [14:19] NIH = ? [14:19] ion, I'm not qualified for that [14:20] hyperair, Not Invented Here [14:20] ion: I think the fundamental design is broken [14:20] but that's just my opinion [14:20] ah. [14:20] broken how? [14:21] ion, just slightly concerned when several very well tested systems get replaced by a single piece of software [14:21] ion, NEW software [14:21] one central daemon that is needed and when breaks, would call huge amounts of havoc [14:21] Chipzz: exactly [14:21] that's the entire purpose of init isn't it? [14:22] if init breaks, you get huge amounts of havoc [14:22] hyperair: yes, but will it work? [14:22] hyperair: and the dbus developers have, IIRC, always had a "Distro's go fuck yourself, dbus isn't designed to be restarted" attitude [14:22] hyperair: init is a LOT less complex than dbus [14:22] hyperair: init has been tested on? hundreds of mililons of systems? [14:22] and now you need dbus and god knows what just to log in [14:22] mok0: upstart has been ubuntu's init for some time already. [14:23] Upstart runs just fine without D-Bus. Even handles D-Bus restarts. Also, Upstart has been running on – how many Ubuntu users are there again? – for many releases by now. Oh, and i bet Upstart has a more comprehensive test suite than sysvinit. :-P [14:23] sounds like looking for things to break [14:23] ion: I'm not criticizing upstart [14:23] neither am I [14:23] my critique is wrt dbus and the whole santa-boutique of *kits [14:24] upstart isn't about to engulf dbus. [14:24] i don't see the point of comparing upstart with dbug [14:24] dbus* [14:24] I’m not saying D-Bus doesn’t suck. I’m still quite confident D-Bus won’t let $randomuser get root access from Upstart, which seemed to be the original doubt. [14:24] hyperair: ok [14:24] I think yesterdays breakage cjwatsons, and who elses? don't recall desktop proved my point very nicely [14:25] what breakage? [14:25] part of ecrypt breaks, and sudo/login get broken [14:25] bad [14:25]