bratschedjsiegel: What's the status of "Cannot rename by clicking on a file"?00:04
bratscheCan we close it since it seems it has no future in upstream?00:04
djsiegelbratsche: what do you mean, it has no future?00:09
djsiegelbratsche: are you still interested in working on it?00:09
bratscheTwo Nautilus maintainers have made it very clear that it would not be accepted upstream.00:09
djsiegelI am confident we can do it and make everyone love it, then users will demand it of upstream00:09
djsiegelbratsche: won't they won't accept is Windows's flawed implementation00:09
djsiegelwhich is not what we would implement00:09
bratscheI'm not that convinced it's a great idea after I thought about it more, but maybe I just have the shitty Windows implementation burned into my memory.00:10
djsiegelI think that's the case00:10
djsiegelAfter using linux for 2 years, I still try to click to rename00:10
djsiegelI see users try it all the time00:10
bratscheI guess one reason I'm not excited by it is that when I stop and think about how often I actually want to rename a file, it's so unbelievably infrequent that I can't imagine ever wanting this feature.00:11
djsiegelwell, it's not 1 in a billion00:11
djsiegelI won't try to convince you to work on it against your interest00:12
djsiegelit's fine if you don't want to do it00:12
djsiegeleven if each user only ever tries it one00:12
djsiegelor 1 in 10 users every try it once00:12
bratscheWell, I would like to find out what your ideas are on it at least. :)00:12
djsiegelit would be worth it to make it not seem broken00:12
bratscheI need to finish up the icon dimming.. I'm not quite sure how to test that yet.00:13
bratscheI'll pop into #nautilus tomorrow and ask for help with that. :)00:13
djsiegelMy idea is that upstream has not tried a good implementation, so they aren't aware that there is a right way to do it, and many wrong ways00:13
djsiegelthe most powerful argument is that *every other desktop OS* does this00:13
djsiegeland users coming from those other environments are trying to rename files and failing00:14
bratscheThe thing I'm most curious about is why users are always trying to rename files.00:14
djsiegelI think that Nautilus developers like the idea of resisting a bad change, even if everyone else "jumps off that cliff"00:14
djsiegelbut I think they are picking the wrong battle00:14
djsiegelusers rename files to organize their stuff00:15
djsiegelthey are often sent files with names that don't make sense to them00:15
djsiegeltpsreport_20080912.odt -> September TPS Report.odt00:15
djsiegelmany users do things like photo organization with nautilus00:16
bratscheOkay, I'll trust that this is true then.  I don't mind working on the patch then.00:16
djsiegelwhich involves created folders, and often time renaming them00:16
bratscheWe'll have to talk about how Windows' implementation sucks and how ours won't. :)00:16
djsiegelyes, we should test side-by-size00:16
bratscheBut I'm going to go out biking now.  The weather is unusually great today for Dallas and I don't want to miss it. :)00:17
djsiegelthe bottom line is, people do rename files, and their main expectation for how to do so is by clicking once, then again00:17
djsiegelsaying "users don't rename files" is just not true00:17
djsiegeland their expectations cannot be wrong00:17
bratscheOkay, fair enough.  I know for a certainty that I am not the average user, and I have done no user testing on this so I will trust you.00:17
djsiegelif they expect to be able to rename files a certain way, they should be able to00:17
djsiegelnot allowing them to rename files this way is tantamount to changing paste to ctrl-g or something00:18
djsiegelthey might discover right-click -> paste00:18
djsiegelbut they know ctrl-v00:18
djsiegelI haven't done the user testing either, I don't think this case merits it but if it would help convince upstream maybe we can do it00:18
djsiegelalejandra and I designed a user testing script for the community to run today00:19
djsiegelI tested archive files on 6 users yesterday: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/archive-behavior-research/+spec/informal-user-test-100:19
bratscheWe can develop a patch for it after we talk about how it should be different.  If it's different enough in the right way then maybe upstream will just be convinced by it.  If not then perhaps user testing will convince them.00:19
djsiegelwith that info, we designed a user test that the community is going to help us carry out on a lot of users00:19
djsiegelbratsche and we could do a PPA and user test it, gather feedback, iterate00:20
bratscheOkay, I'm going biking now. :)00:20
bratschettyl or tomorrow.00:20
djsiegelthen we could do a widescale user test, and if 100/100 people say +1 to click to rename, what will it look like if upstream still says "no"?00:20
djsiegelok, bye bratsche00:20
bratscheCrap, it's starting to rain.  No wonder the weather seems so nice now.00:26
djsiegelDanRabbit1: it's a little hard to tell that it's a battery00:35
djsiegelmaybe draw a little lightening bolt on it while it's discharging?00:36
djsiegeljust so it doesn't look like an abstract geometrical figure00:36
djsiegeland it looks more like a real world object00:37
dashua_DanRabbit1,  http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/19723/screenshot_5_l62vra.png Humanity based theme (light version) :)00:40
djsiegellooking good, dashua_00:42
MDC1djsiegel, yep it's me (MDC1 = Marcus Carlson)06:41
mac_vMDC1: any luck?06:50
mac_vDanRabbit1: notification-display-brightness-off is 1px higher than the rest of the icons06:54
mac_vDanRabbit1: that would cause an icon jerk, when brightness is being turned off06:55
MDC1mac_v, with getting help? - No :-) But i've been doing some hacking anyway, a little bit hackish but it seems to work. Just have to do the location bar action and then the toolbar is customizable. Then I'll fix the rest of the stuff (reset toolbar, expand the locationbar, saving gconf values, etc)06:57
MDC1mac_v, maybe I should ask the same question here as I asked djsiegel to get a second opinion;06:58
MDC1the user has edited the toolbar to not include location bar (or search bar - same thing) and then hits ctrl + l or going via menu - should there be 1) a popup 2) a new temporary toolbar created and location bar added and removed when hitting enter 3) try to push the location bar into the existing toolbar06:58
MDC1djsiegel said go with 1 - but I'm not sure about that. I think I'd go with 2 - what do you think?06:59
mac_vMDC1: cant it be done like in firefox? when user adds the toolbar , it just shows up [is this what you mean by pop-up?]07:00
mac_vin firefox, the view section has several selection options, user can check or uncheck the toolbars, this would be the easiest user-friendly way07:01
MDC1mac_v, not sure what you mean. The popup would allow you to enter the location for the path you'd like to go to07:01
mac_vMDC1: ^07:01
MDC1ah. now this is all customizble - user can add toolbars, remove buttons etc etc07:03
MDC1just like in epiphany07:03
DanRabbit1mac_v: whoops! thanks for noticing :D07:03
mac_vMDC1: so is firefox, the options allow the user to place the menu items anywhere, ie: user can place the location bar in the title bar07:05
mac_vMDC1: location bar can behave like a button, which can be added to the main toolbar07:05
MDC1mac_v, then I'm not sure what you been by check/unchec07:05
MDC1yes, in my toolbar editor that's exactly as it behaves right now07:06
MDC1but the problem is when a user has removed the location bar from all the toolbars and still hits the ctrl + L or F3 button07:06
mac_vMDC1: then i think option 2 would be best07:08
mac_vpop-up is not nice07:08
hyperairtitle bar? isn't that the window decoration?07:08
MDC1mac_v, agree :-)07:09
mac_vhyperair: he is trying to reduce the main toolbar and location bar07:09
hyperairi basically shoved my bookmarks toolbar onto the end of my menubar07:09
MDC1hyperair, not adding something to the title bar, i think mac_v means the menu bar in ff07:09
hyperairi don't think the location bar looks nice there07:10
hyperairi'd rather have a long location bar on the same line as my search box07:10
hyperairbut the bookmarks go there pretty nicely07:10
mac_voops i just noticed that, yeah, s/title/menu toolbar07:10
mac_vhyperair: this is for nautilus07:11
hyperairfor nautilus eh..07:11
hyperairit's too many things to fit onto *one* toolbar, imo07:12
hyperaircan't exactly join it =\07:12
mac_vhyperair: each user can have just what he wants07:12
hyperairand sticking anything on the same level as the menubar is going to make it grown in height.07:12
hyperairwhich looks ugly07:12
mac_vwithout titles07:13
mac_vie;: labels , damn!07:13
MDC1no, we won't add buttons to either the title bar nor the menu bar.. 07:13
* mac_v always has typo's when multi-tasking! :(07:14
hyperairwhat the hell are ie labels?07:14
MDC1have to get to work, see ya later07:14
mac_vuser can have just the icon displayed without the labels07:14
hyperairthat's customized in gnome preferences07:14
mac_vMDC1: just a sec07:14
hyperairmy icons are already missing their labels in the toolbars07:14
mac_vMDC1: so from what i understand, how you have done the toolbar editor is: user can choose how many toolbars to display and also choose which buttons to show, and where the buttons are placed?07:16
MDC1mac_v, correct! :-)07:17
mac_vMDC1: \o/ nice, wonderful07:17
MDC1screenshot 07:17
hyperairthat looks like gnome-settings-daemon has crashed.07:18
MDC1yep.. some problem with nomachine..07:18
mac_vhyperair: hehe my thoughts too07:18
MDC1just crashes imeditaly07:18
MDC1got to go, bye!07:18
hyperairi think that looks neat07:18
hyperairkinda like firefox's one07:18
mac_vhyperair: yeah07:19
MDC1actually it's more like epiphanys07:19
MDC1bye (really now)07:19
hyperairnever seen that one07:19
hyperairhahah bye07:19
* MacSlow -> lunch12:49
=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch
=== MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow
mac_vdjsiegel1: several bugs regarding volume applet have been fixed in Karmic 17:00
djsiegel1mac_v: awesome!17:00
djsiegel1I saw the paper cut for opening and closing the applet window17:00
mac_vdjsiegel1: also 1 for the vertical applet, and 1 for lesser volume controls17:01
djsiegel1mac_v: ah, so, there's a simplified volume controller, and the applet slider is now vertical?17:02
djsiegel1For some reason I cannot boot the Karmic daily live isos.17:02
djsiegel1I get "BusyBox no live filesystem found"17:02
mac_vdjsiegel1: try the alpha317:02
mac_vrather than dailies17:03
djsiegel1mac_v: if you notice that a paper cut is fixed in karmic, please mark it fix committed17:03
mac_vdjsiegel1: i marked as fix released :(17:03
djsiegel1it isn't released17:04
mac_voh... ok17:04
djsiegel1which did you mark?17:04
djsiegel1I just marked the applet window zoom17:04
mac_vthere are 2 more volume related , I'll find them17:04
tedgdjsiegel1: For distro bugs typically they're fix release when they're in the distro, not when it releases.17:15
tedgdjsiegel1: Otherwise you'll have to do 100 modifications when Karmic ships :)17:16
djsiegel1tedg: yes but those modifications are so gratifying!17:16
djsiegel1tedg: and there really should be a "mark fix committed -> fix released" big green button in launchpad17:16
djsiegel1beuno: ^17:17
tedgdjsiegel1: There will be with series, but I don't think that's implemented yet.17:17
beunowe should have a special action that does that17:20
tedgbeuno: Perhaps kinda like the iPhone, where you can do actions on bugs, but then you can also throw them into a "sheet view" and do operations on groups of them quickly.  The iPhone usually has an "edit" button on most lists for this type of thing.17:23
beunotedg, yes, we have a "bug bag" feature drafted out17:24
ryanpriorYay for alliteration.17:25
tedgbeuno: As long as I can call it a "shit sack" ;)17:26
bratschedjsiegel1: I'm going to email you some screenshots from Win7 today.  Related to the <alt> thing kind of.17:26
beunotedg, I'll make sure you can edit the name  :)17:26
djsiegel1bratsche cool17:26
mac_vdjsiegel1: done17:28
ryanpriora "dung dumpster"17:28
mac_v"shit pile" ;p17:29
djsiegel1tedg: can you take pidgin's status icons and use them in FUSA?17:31
tedgdjsiegel1: We use what ever the theme sets them as.17:31
tedgdjsiegel1: So, really, that's a kwwii question :)17:32
tedgdjsiegel1: Though, it would be confusing if Empathy (the default IM client) and the status menu had different icons.  I'm unsure if Emapthy is using the theme's icons or not.17:33
tedgdjsiegel1: There's a bug to add them to the standard, but we're still waiting on the maintainers there.17:34
djsiegel1tedg: cool, thanks for the indo17:34
mac_vDanRabbit: hi... another thing i noticed> the trash icon> http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png . it has no padding if placed on the top panel it touches the edge[i realize it's not the default], but it seems bigger than the rest of the icons on the panel.17:40
DanRabbitmac_v: do you think you can file a bug for me? I'll not remember otherwise18:13
MDC1i've got a tiny problem with g_signalling - any ninjas around?22:42
MDC1I declare my signal like this; (ignoring some stuff) G_STRUCT_OFFSET (NautilusZoomActionClass, zoom_to_level) .... g_cclosure_marshal_VOID__INT, G_TYPE_NONE,1, G_TYPE_INT);22:45
MDC1.h: void (* zoom_to_level)(NZA *action, NZL zoom_level) and then emitting with g_signal_emit (action, sig, 0, level); (level = NautilusZoomLevel (an enum))22:46
MDC1result: segfault with IA__g_type_check_instance22:47
MDC1the other signals I use (no parameters) is working just fine..22:49
SiDiWhy dont you ask in gimp.net's gtk or c or nautilus channels ? They'll be more likely to know22:52
MDC1SiDi, will do22:57

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