[00:04] <bratsche> djsiegel: What's the status of "Cannot rename by clicking on a file"?
[00:04] <bratsche> Can we close it since it seems it has no future in upstream?
[00:09] <djsiegel> bratsche: what do you mean, it has no future?
[00:09] <djsiegel> bratsche: are you still interested in working on it?
[00:09] <bratsche> Two Nautilus maintainers have made it very clear that it would not be accepted upstream.
[00:09] <djsiegel> I am confident we can do it and make everyone love it, then users will demand it of upstream
[00:09] <djsiegel> bratsche: won't they won't accept is Windows's flawed implementation
[00:09] <djsiegel> which is not what we would implement
[00:10] <bratsche> I'm not that convinced it's a great idea after I thought about it more, but maybe I just have the shitty Windows implementation burned into my memory.
[00:10] <djsiegel> I think that's the case
[00:10] <djsiegel> After using linux for 2 years, I still try to click to rename
[00:10] <djsiegel> I see users try it all the time
[00:11] <bratsche> I guess one reason I'm not excited by it is that when I stop and think about how often I actually want to rename a file, it's so unbelievably infrequent that I can't imagine ever wanting this feature.
[00:11] <djsiegel> well, it's not 1 in a billion
[00:12] <djsiegel> I won't try to convince you to work on it against your interest
[00:12] <djsiegel> it's fine if you don't want to do it
[00:12] <djsiegel> even if each user only ever tries it one
[00:12] <djsiegel> once
[00:12] <djsiegel> or 1 in 10 users every try it once
[00:12] <bratsche> Well, I would like to find out what your ideas are on it at least. :)
[00:12] <djsiegel> it would be worth it to make it not seem broken
[00:13] <bratsche> I need to finish up the icon dimming.. I'm not quite sure how to test that yet.
[00:13] <bratsche> I'll pop into #nautilus tomorrow and ask for help with that. :)
[00:13] <djsiegel> My idea is that upstream has not tried a good implementation, so they aren't aware that there is a right way to do it, and many wrong ways
[00:13] <djsiegel> the most powerful argument is that *every other desktop OS* does this
[00:14] <djsiegel> and users coming from those other environments are trying to rename files and failing
[00:14] <bratsche> The thing I'm most curious about is why users are always trying to rename files.
[00:14] <djsiegel> I think that Nautilus developers like the idea of resisting a bad change, even if everyone else "jumps off that cliff"
[00:14] <djsiegel> but I think they are picking the wrong battle
[00:15] <djsiegel> users rename files to organize their stuff
[00:15] <djsiegel> they are often sent files with names that don't make sense to them
[00:15] <djsiegel> tpsreport_20080912.odt -> September TPS Report.odt
[00:16] <djsiegel> many users do things like photo organization with nautilus
[00:16] <bratsche> Okay, I'll trust that this is true then.  I don't mind working on the patch then.
[00:16] <djsiegel> which involves created folders, and often time renaming them
[00:16] <bratsche> We'll have to talk about how Windows' implementation sucks and how ours won't. :)
[00:16] <djsiegel> yes, we should test side-by-size
[00:16] <djsiegel> side*
[00:17] <bratsche> But I'm going to go out biking now.  The weather is unusually great today for Dallas and I don't want to miss it. :)
[00:17] <djsiegel> the bottom line is, people do rename files, and their main expectation for how to do so is by clicking once, then again
[00:17] <djsiegel> saying "users don't rename files" is just not true
[00:17] <djsiegel> and their expectations cannot be wrong
[00:17] <bratsche> Okay, fair enough.  I know for a certainty that I am not the average user, and I have done no user testing on this so I will trust you.
[00:17] <djsiegel> if they expect to be able to rename files a certain way, they should be able to
[00:18] <djsiegel> not allowing them to rename files this way is tantamount to changing paste to ctrl-g or something
[00:18] <djsiegel> they might discover right-click -> paste
[00:18] <djsiegel> but they know ctrl-v
[00:18] <djsiegel> I haven't done the user testing either, I don't think this case merits it but if it would help convince upstream maybe we can do it
[00:19] <djsiegel> alejandra and I designed a user testing script for the community to run today
[00:19] <djsiegel> I tested archive files on 6 users yesterday: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/archive-behavior-research/+spec/informal-user-test-1
[00:19] <bratsche> We can develop a patch for it after we talk about how it should be different.  If it's different enough in the right way then maybe upstream will just be convinced by it.  If not then perhaps user testing will convince them.
[00:19] <djsiegel> with that info, we designed a user test that the community is going to help us carry out on a lot of users
[00:20] <djsiegel> bratsche and we could do a PPA and user test it, gather feedback, iterate
[00:20] <bratsche> Cool.
[00:20] <bratsche> Okay, I'm going biking now. :)
[00:20] <bratsche> ttyl or tomorrow.
[00:20] <djsiegel> then we could do a widescale user test, and if 100/100 people say +1 to click to rename, what will it look like if upstream still says "no"?
[00:20] <djsiegel> ok, bye bratsche
[00:26] <bratsche> Crap, it's starting to rain.  No wonder the weather seems so nice now.
[00:35] <djsiegel> DanRabbit1: it's a little hard to tell that it's a battery
[00:36] <djsiegel> maybe draw a little lightening bolt on it while it's discharging?
[00:36] <djsiegel> just so it doesn't look like an abstract geometrical figure
[00:37] <djsiegel> and it looks more like a real world object
[00:40] <dashua_> DanRabbit1,  http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/19723/screenshot_5_l62vra.png Humanity based theme (light version) :)
[00:42] <djsiegel> looking good, dashua_
[06:41] <MDC1> djsiegel, yep it's me (MDC1 = Marcus Carlson)
[06:50] <mac_v> MDC1: any luck?
[06:54] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: notification-display-brightness-off is 1px higher than the rest of the icons
[06:55] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: that would cause an icon jerk, when brightness is being turned off
[06:57] <MDC1> mac_v, with getting help? - No :-) But i've been doing some hacking anyway, a little bit hackish but it seems to work. Just have to do the location bar action and then the toolbar is customizable. Then I'll fix the rest of the stuff (reset toolbar, expand the locationbar, saving gconf values, etc)
[06:58] <MDC1> mac_v, maybe I should ask the same question here as I asked djsiegel to get a second opinion;
[06:58] <MDC1> the user has edited the toolbar to not include location bar (or search bar - same thing) and then hits ctrl + l or going via menu - should there be 1) a popup 2) a new temporary toolbar created and location bar added and removed when hitting enter 3) try to push the location bar into the existing toolbar
[06:59] <MDC1> djsiegel said go with 1 - but I'm not sure about that. I think I'd go with 2 - what do you think?
[07:00] <mac_v> MDC1: cant it be done like in firefox? when user adds the toolbar , it just shows up [is this what you mean by pop-up?]
[07:00] <mac_v> check/uncheck
[07:01] <mac_v> in firefox, the view section has several selection options, user can check or uncheck the toolbars, this would be the easiest user-friendly way
[07:01] <MDC1> mac_v, not sure what you mean. The popup would allow you to enter the location for the path you'd like to go to
[07:01] <mac_v> MDC1: ^
[07:03] <MDC1> ah. now this is all customizble - user can add toolbars, remove buttons etc etc
[07:03] <MDC1> just like in epiphany
[07:03] <DanRabbit1> mac_v: whoops! thanks for noticing :D
[07:05] <mac_v> MDC1: so is firefox, the options allow the user to place the menu items anywhere, ie: user can place the location bar in the title bar
[07:05] <mac_v> MDC1: location bar can behave like a button, which can be added to the main toolbar
[07:05] <MDC1> mac_v, then I'm not sure what you been by check/unchec
[07:06] <MDC1> yes, in my toolbar editor that's exactly as it behaves right now
[07:06] <MDC1> but the problem is when a user has removed the location bar from all the toolbars and still hits the ctrl + L or F3 button
[07:08] <mac_v> MDC1: then i think option 2 would be best
[07:08] <mac_v> pop-up is not nice
[07:08] <hyperair> title bar? isn't that the window decoration?
[07:09] <MDC1> mac_v, agree :-)
[07:09] <mac_v> hyperair: he is trying to reduce the main toolbar and location bar
[07:09] <hyperair> hmm
[07:09] <hyperair> i basically shoved my bookmarks toolbar onto the end of my menubar
[07:09] <MDC1> hyperair, not adding something to the title bar, i think mac_v means the menu bar in ff
[07:10] <hyperair> i don't think the location bar looks nice there
[07:10] <hyperair> i'd rather have a long location bar on the same line as my search box
[07:10] <hyperair> but the bookmarks go there pretty nicely
[07:10] <mac_v> oops i just noticed that, yeah, s/title/menu toolbar
[07:11] <mac_v> hyperair: this is for nautilus
[07:11] <hyperair> oh
[07:11] <hyperair> for nautilus eh..
[07:11] <MDC1> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42834
[07:11] <hyperair> hmmm
[07:12] <hyperair> it's too many things to fit onto *one* toolbar, imo
[07:12] <hyperair> can't exactly join it =\
[07:12] <mac_v> hyperair: each user can have just what he wants
[07:12] <mac_v> :)
[07:12] <hyperair> and sticking anything on the same level as the menubar is going to make it grown in height.
[07:12] <hyperair> which looks ugly
[07:13] <mac_v> without titles
[07:13] <hyperair> titles?
[07:13] <mac_v> ielabels!
[07:13] <hyperair> ??
[07:13] <mac_v> ie;: labels , damn!
[07:13] <MDC1> no, we won't add buttons to either the title bar nor the menu bar.. 
[07:14]  * mac_v always has typo's when multi-tasking! :(
[07:14] <hyperair> what the hell are ie labels?
[07:14] <MDC1> have to get to work, see ya later
[07:14] <mac_v> user can have just the icon displayed without the labels
[07:14] <hyperair> that's customized in gnome preferences
[07:14] <mac_v> MDC1: just a sec
[07:14] <hyperair> my icons are already missing their labels in the toolbars
[07:16] <mac_v> MDC1: so from what i understand, how you have done the toolbar editor is: user can choose how many toolbars to display and also choose which buttons to show, and where the buttons are placed?
[07:17] <MDC1> mac_v, correct! :-)
[07:17] <mac_v> MDC1: \o/ nice, wonderful
[07:17] <MDC1> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=138852&action=view
[07:17] <MDC1> screenshot 
[07:18] <hyperair> that looks like gnome-settings-daemon has crashed.
[07:18] <hyperair> heheh
[07:18] <MDC1> yep.. some problem with nomachine..
[07:18] <mac_v> hyperair: hehe my thoughts too
[07:18] <MDC1> just crashes imeditaly
[07:18] <MDC1> got to go, bye!
[07:18] <mac_v> bye
[07:18] <hyperair> i think that looks neat
[07:18] <hyperair> kinda like firefox's one
[07:19] <mac_v> hyperair: yeah
[07:19] <MDC1> actually it's more like epiphanys
[07:19] <hyperair> hmm
[07:19] <MDC1> bye (really now)
[07:19] <hyperair> never seen that one
[07:19] <hyperair> hahah bye
[12:49]  * MacSlow -> lunch
[17:00] <mac_v> djsiegel1: several bugs regarding volume applet have been fixed in Karmic 
[17:00] <djsiegel1> mac_v: awesome!
[17:00] <djsiegel1> I saw the paper cut for opening and closing the applet window
[17:01] <mac_v> djsiegel1: also 1 for the vertical applet, and 1 for lesser volume controls
[17:02] <djsiegel1> mac_v: ah, so, there's a simplified volume controller, and the applet slider is now vertical?
[17:02] <djsiegel1> For some reason I cannot boot the Karmic daily live isos.
[17:02] <djsiegel1> I get "BusyBox no live filesystem found"
[17:02] <mac_v> djsiegel1: try the alpha3
[17:03] <mac_v> rather than dailies
[17:03] <djsiegel1> mac_v: if you notice that a paper cut is fixed in karmic, please mark it fix committed
[17:03] <mac_v> djsiegel1: i marked as fix released :(
[17:04] <djsiegel1> it isn't released
[17:04] <mac_v> oh... ok
[17:04] <djsiegel1> which did you mark?
[17:04] <djsiegel1> I just marked the applet window zoom
[17:04] <mac_v> there are 2 more volume related , I'll find them
[17:05] <djsiegel1> cool
[17:15] <tedg> djsiegel1: For distro bugs typically they're fix release when they're in the distro, not when it releases.
[17:16] <tedg> djsiegel1: Otherwise you'll have to do 100 modifications when Karmic ships :)
[17:16] <djsiegel1> tedg: yes but those modifications are so gratifying!
[17:16] <djsiegel1> tedg: and there really should be a "mark fix committed -> fix released" big green button in launchpad
[17:17] <djsiegel1> beuno: ^
[17:17] <tedg> djsiegel1: There will be with series, but I don't think that's implemented yet.
[17:17] <djsiegel1> cool
[17:20] <beuno> interesting
[17:20] <beuno> we should have a special action that does that
[17:23] <tedg> beuno: Perhaps kinda like the iPhone, where you can do actions on bugs, but then you can also throw them into a "sheet view" and do operations on groups of them quickly.  The iPhone usually has an "edit" button on most lists for this type of thing.
[17:24] <beuno> tedg, yes, we have a "bug bag" feature drafted out
[17:25] <ryanprior> Yay for alliteration.
[17:26] <tedg> beuno: As long as I can call it a "shit sack" ;)
[17:26] <bratsche> djsiegel1: I'm going to email you some screenshots from Win7 today.  Related to the <alt> thing kind of.
[17:26] <beuno> tedg, I'll make sure you can edit the name  :)
[17:26] <djsiegel1> bratsche cool
[17:28] <mac_v> djsiegel1: done
[17:28] <ryanprior> a "dung dumpster"
[17:29] <mac_v> "shit pile" ;p
[17:31] <djsiegel1> tedg: can you take pidgin's status icons and use them in FUSA?
[17:31] <tedg> djsiegel1: We use what ever the theme sets them as.
[17:32] <tedg> djsiegel1: So, really, that's a kwwii question :)
[17:33] <tedg> djsiegel1: Though, it would be confusing if Empathy (the default IM client) and the status menu had different icons.  I'm unsure if Emapthy is using the theme's icons or not.
[17:34] <tedg> djsiegel1: There's a bug to add them to the standard, but we're still waiting on the maintainers there.
[17:34] <djsiegel1> tedg: cool, thanks for the indo
[17:34] <djsiegel1> info*
[17:40] <mac_v> DanRabbit: hi... another thing i noticed> the trash icon> http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png . it has no padding if placed on the top panel it touches the edge[i realize it's not the default], but it seems bigger than the rest of the icons on the panel.
[18:13] <DanRabbit> mac_v: do you think you can file a bug for me? I'll not remember otherwise
[18:14] <mac_v> ok...
[22:42] <MDC1> i've got a tiny problem with g_signalling - any ninjas around?
[22:45] <MDC1> I declare my signal like this; (ignoring some stuff) G_STRUCT_OFFSET (NautilusZoomActionClass, zoom_to_level) .... g_cclosure_marshal_VOID__INT, G_TYPE_NONE,1, G_TYPE_INT);
[22:46] <MDC1> .h: void (* zoom_to_level)	(NZA *action, NZL zoom_level) and then emitting with g_signal_emit (action, sig, 0, level); (level = NautilusZoomLevel (an enum))
[22:47] <MDC1> result: segfault with IA__g_type_check_instance
[22:49] <MDC1> the other signals I use (no parameters) is working just fine..
[22:52] <SiDi> Why dont you ask in gimp.net's gtk or c or nautilus channels ? They'll be more likely to know
[22:57] <MDC1> SiDi, will do