[00:00] <atomic007za> or how would set SDL_audiodriver=esd automacically when tuxtyping starts
 or how could I just disable sound on tuxtyping for all uses as it starts?
 I have not seen a conf file for this
 SDL soung seems to be causing a problem when more than 2 clients log in
 anyone?
[03:06] <LaserJock> ace_suares: around?
[04:19] <ace_suares> LaserJock now
[04:20] <ace_suares> ah u left
[04:58] <sbalneav> Evening all
[13:34] <ace_suares> morning
[13:43] <ace_suares> ping LaserJock
[13:45] <ace_suares> ogra why are there so many unapproved members on edubuntu team ?
[13:47] <sbalneav> Because they applied for membership, but then never did anything tangible to help out.
[13:49] <sbalneav> Membership gives you things like voting rights on decisions, etc.
[13:49] <sbalneav> But it's a meritocracy, so you have to "put in a little work" before you get it.
[14:14] <ace_suares> oh so its probably a bunch of people they click 'join' cause it's so easy and then forget about it.
[14:15] <ace_suares> and when will i become a member? Not that I want to :-) but i have to to get some work done, apparently. I am website member already, that was easy
[14:23] <sbalneav> Well, when you apply, we can vote on it.
[15:43] <ace_suares> I apllied two days agio
[15:55] <ace_suares> sbalneav: u there
[15:55] <ace_suares> LaserJock ping
[16:07] <mhall119> I applied before I realized there were requirements on membership
[16:09] <ace_suares> mhall119 would you like to contribute to the website and/or wiki ?
[16:09] <mhall119> my wife is already contributing for the wiki
[16:09] <ace_suares> oh okay
[16:09] <ace_suares> whats her handle
[16:09] <mhall119> I'm going to be contributing to Edubuntu itself, eventually
[16:10] <mhall119> Michelle_Qimo
[16:10] <ace_suares> mhall119 the wiki is part of Edubuntu :-)
[16:10] <mhall119> ace_suares: the project, yes, I was talking about the actual distro
[16:11] <mhall119> going to try and incorporate some of Qimo into Edubuntu
[16:11] <ace_suares> mhall119 the docs go into the distro too :-)))
[16:11] <mhall119> I know that's the plan, are they in there already?
[16:11] <ace_suares> i checked out qimo but I don't know what to think of it
[16:11] <mhall119> ace_suares: you're older than our target demographic
[16:11] <mhall119> :)
[16:11] <ace_suares> what i got was a normal desktop screen (well not gnome obviously) and I wouldnt be able to put a kid behind that thing
[16:12] <mhall119> ah, you didn't read the FAQ then
[16:12] <ace_suares> for instance, on the desktop, there is no icons that lead driectly to things for kids
[16:12] <ace_suares> okay
[16:12] <ace_suares> why shoud i read a faq ?
[16:12] <mhall119> you shouldn't select "Automatically log in to this account" when installing
[16:12] <ace_suares> i put in the cd and then that's all i do right?/
[16:12] <ace_suares> mhall119 blast
[16:12] <ace_suares> that featurre was so handy
[16:12] <mhall119> the account you setup when installing is for a parent
[16:12] <ace_suares> that shouldnt be in the faq but in the installation instructions
[16:13] <mhall119> the Qimo account is already setup, and configured to automatically log in
[16:13] <ace_suares> and btw can't you diasble that with preseed or something??
[16:13] <mhall119> ace_suares: I'm planning on modifying Ubiquity to make that more clear in the next version
[16:13] <ace_suares> would be nice, you almost lost me on Qimo just because of that!
[16:13] <mhall119> you're not the only one
[16:14] <mhall119> Qimo is still on v1.0, and we kind of rushed that out
[16:14] <ace_suares> mhall119 users are badly understood
[16:14] <mhall119> I didn't even know python at that point, so modifying Ubiquity was out of scope
[16:14] <mhall119> ace_suares: I understand the problem, just didn't have the time and knowledge to do anything about it at the time
[16:14] <ace_suares> okay okay you are forgiven ;-)
[16:15] <ace_suares> I will  reinstall or is there a smarter way? Just disable autologin in the login manager?
[16:16] <mhall119> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/qimo/+spec/ubiquity-modification
[16:16] <mhall119> You can probably just go to the Login Window settings and change the autologin back to Qimo
[16:16] <ace_suares> oh i will try
[16:31] <ace_suares> mhall119 still there?
[16:31] <mhall119> yup
[16:31] <ace_suares> you know what drives me crazy?
[16:32] <mhall119> the state of the Edubuntu wiki?
[16:32] <ace_suares> l'linux' is all so good on old compiuters... qimo claims that too
[16:32] <mhall119> a claim I can back up with facts
[16:32] <ace_suares> but my screen is to small and the login manager windows doesnt fit in the screen and there is NO way to get to the 'OK' button. It's off screen even if i removed the two panels
[16:32] <ace_suares> so how good is it then :-(
[16:32] <mhall119> yeah, there are several dialogs with that problem
[16:33] <ace_suares> okay i can do CLI but ...
[16:33] <mhall119> no, there's an easier way
[16:33] <ace_suares> mhall119 why can't one resize the dialogs ? afwul
[16:33] <mhall119> hit Alt+F7
[16:33] <ace_suares> alt-f7 ?
[16:33] <ace_suares> and then
[16:33] <mhall119> you can move the dialog window past the screen edge
[16:33] <ace_suares> ah
[16:33] <ace_suares> okay
[16:33] <mhall119> the Evolution and Thunderbird account dialogs are some of the worst at that
[16:33] <ace_suares> yah i remmber that now biut still it's very bad UI design
[16:34] <mhall119> I agree, especially with netbooks becoming so wide spread, a lot of these need to be reconsidered
[16:34] <mhall119> there's probably bug reports about it already
[16:35] <ace_suares> its not ALT+F7 , that maximize/restore
[16:35] <ace_suares> it;s ALT+_drag mouse
[16:35] <ace_suares> but thx anyway!
[16:37] <ace_suares> ahhh that's much nicer!
[16:37] <ace_suares> that's the way kids can work with it
[16:38] <ace_suares> a pity that when you move the mouse over the icons, there is no text explaining what the icon does
[16:38] <ace_suares> i got a vague blue icon
[16:38] <ace_suares> truns out to be tux4kids
[16:38] <ace_suares> but in generals you are on the good way
[16:38] <ace_suares> this is mor eof an interface for kids
[16:47] <mhall119> there should be a tooltip on mouse over
[16:48] <mhall119> the TuxType icon, the vague blue one, I don't like either
[16:50] <ace_suares> there wasnt a tooltip. I installed in dutch by the way
[17:00] <ace_suares> wiki is sooooooo slooooooowwwww
[18:52] <mhall119> ace_suares: you around?
[18:52] <mhall119> was reading https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSiteFeatures
[18:53] <mhall119> and for LaunchPad Auth Integration, if you're going to use Drupal it can be OpenID
[18:53] <mhall119> just a thought
[19:23] <LaserJock> hello Edubuntu land
[19:23]  * LaserJock is trying to get through all of ace_suares's emails
[19:26] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you around? we should discuss this Download page
[19:59] <LaserJock> ace_suares: ping
[19:59] <ace_suares> hey man
[20:00] <LaserJock> ace_suares: we need to discuss this Download wiki page
[20:00] <ace_suares>  please do
[20:01] <LaserJock> ace_suares: I don't think it's really a good idea to have a Download page on the wiki as it's a duplication
[20:01] <LaserJock> and the wiki is not meant for end users
[20:01] <LaserJock> I think it might cause confusion
[20:01] <ace_suares> I can relate to that. But did you red my msg to uwe ?
[20:02] <LaserJock> yes
[20:02] <LaserJock> but we already have a Download page on edubuntu.org
[20:02] <ace_suares> so how is it that it is not confusing now?
[20:02] <LaserJock> that should be *the* download page
[20:03] <ace_suares> if you read my msg you'd know thta that page is very confusing
[20:03] <LaserJock> so other pages should link to it
[20:03] <ace_suares> dont you agree?
[20:03] <LaserJock> sure
[20:03] <LaserJock> that's why we fix the page
[20:03] <LaserJock> not make another page that tries to explain the confusing page :-)
[20:03] <ace_suares> okay so we need to addres show to make THTA page more logical. But back to your 'suggestion'
[20:03] <ace_suares> he he
[20:03] <ace_suares> so if people are on the wiki home page
[20:03] <ace_suares> and then click download
[20:04] <LaserJock> I've been working off-and-on with the Ubuntu webmaster to get a download page that looks like Ubuntu's
[20:04] <ace_suares> they get thrown in an entirely different area, page laypout and such
[20:04] <ace_suares> do you think that is acceptable ??
[20:04] <LaserJock> yes
[20:04] <ace_suares> okay
[20:04] <ace_suares> why ?
[20:04] <LaserJock> if they land on wiki.edubuntu.org they are in the wrong place
[20:04] <LaserJock> they should get linked to www.edubuntu.org
[20:05] <LaserJock> it is helpful if it's visually a bit different to distinguish the two places
[20:05] <ace_suares> did you *try* to click on the link in the wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu ?
[20:05] <ace_suares> how does that feel to the new user that never been on edubuntu ?
[20:06] <LaserJock> how do you mean?
[20:06] <ace_suares> do you think the new user has any idea that there are two different sites? And what they entail ?
[20:06] <LaserJock> if a person lands on wiki.edubuntu.org the goal is to get them off as soon as possible
[20:06] <LaserJock> the two sites are completely different technologies
[20:06] <ace_suares> well okay but how to get them off? just link them to a totally different site without explanation ?
[20:07] <LaserJock> yes
[20:07] <ace_suares> okay lets vote on that in the nex tmeeting then. Could you send a mail to the list pointing out your viewpoint?
[20:07] <LaserJock> we don't need a vote
[20:07] <LaserJock> we just don't need multiple download pages
[20:08] <LaserJock> we need to make *the* download page better so it's not confusing
[20:08] <LaserJock> and get people off of wiki.edubuntu.org as soon as possible
[20:09] <ace_suares> swell.
[20:09] <ace_suares> let me ask you one thing
[20:09] <ace_suares> what do you expect of me?
[20:09] <LaserJock> you're doing great work
[20:09] <LaserJock> you've been going through stuff
[20:09] <ace_suares> yeah and then you come and pick on a random item in my proposal
[20:10] <ace_suares> what i need is a general idea
[20:10] <ace_suares> a guidance
[20:10] <ace_suares> a goal
[20:10] <mhall119> I'd like to second that you're doing great work, ace_suares
[20:10] <ace_suares> not picking apart my proposal while I am making it
[20:10] <LaserJock> ok, well
[20:10] <ace_suares> i am working my butt of here with the risk of totally being bruned down by everone who wants something else then i propose
[20:11] <ace_suares> i say, either explain me exactly what to do so i can help
[20:11] <LaserJock> I'm trying to offer guidance here
[20:11] <ace_suares> or let me do my thing, commenting on it is quite okay, and then change whateve rneed to be changed when the proposal has its fdorm
[20:11] <LaserJock> one minor issue with your proposal
[20:11] <ace_suares> what do you think? I am not trying to offend here
[20:12] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to avoid having you waste time on stuff
[20:12] <ace_suares> LaserJock: thx! Sincerely. But how can you or anyone avoid that when there is no clear goal where to work too?
[20:12] <LaserJock> well
[20:13] <LaserJock> we already had the goal of moving all the user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community
[20:13] <ace_suares> I am just making things up along the way so to come to a proposal that can then be altered. It's very easy to change the downlaod page
[20:13] <LaserJock> well, it is and it isn't
[20:13] <ace_suares> LaserJock: yeah that's true and I asked for a list, but there is no list
[20:13] <LaserJock> modification of an existing page isn't much of a problem
[20:13] <ace_suares> There is lots of other stuff though
[20:13] <LaserJock> but creating new pages can be a bit tougher
[20:13] <ace_suares> specs, wikiplans, the lot
[20:13] <LaserJock> yep
[20:14] <ace_suares> I think I got the moin moin pretty much under control. Some things can't be done nicely though.
[20:14] <LaserJock> so, I'm just saying don't bother with a download page
[20:14] <ace_suares> that's okay LJ
[20:14] <ace_suares> I know what you want to say with it.
[20:14] <ace_suares> i don't agree tough, but that's a differnet thing
[20:15] <ace_suares> btw how does this democrazy work
[20:15] <ace_suares> you tell me what you think is right and then i do it ?
[20:15] <mhall119> it's not really a democracy
[20:15] <ace_suares> I have seriously no clue
[20:15] <LaserJock> it's more meritocracy
[20:15] <ace_suares> he he i like that
[20:15] <LaserJock> people who have been in the team a long time and have done the work have the most say
[20:15] <ace_suares> meritocrazy includes that first you need to be able to do something
[20:15] <LaserJock> sometimes there's a single leader
[20:15] <mhall119> or an ad-hocracy if you read Doctorow
[20:16] <LaserJock> we often have votes
[20:16] <ace_suares> before someone knows your merit, right ??
[20:16] <ace_suares> ad-hocrazy is even nicer :-)
[20:16] <LaserJock> we *do* have an Edubuntu Council but that's mostly for higher level governance and decision making
[20:16] <mhall119> ace_suares: yes, you have to do something first
[20:16] <mhall119> it just doesn't necessarily have to be done in/with edubuntu
[20:16] <ace_suares> In the whole light of attracting people to make a contribution, how do you see this meritocracy functioning to that end?
[20:17] <LaserJock> when they contribute they get a say
[20:17] <ace_suares> But what they contribute is defined by the meritocrats?
[20:17] <LaserJock> if a person wants a piece of the decision making pie, they need to jump in and start contributing
[20:17] <mhall119> ace_suares: if you have done things in the past that makes other confident in your ability to do things right in the future, your voice has more weight
[20:17] <LaserJock> no
[20:17] <LaserJock> not necessarily
[20:17] <ace_suares> just asking
[20:18] <LaserJock> often the "meritocrats" will define things that need to be done, etc.
[20:18] <LaserJock> and offer advice and guidance
[20:18] <ace_suares> LaserJock: but there is a lack of definition in what needs to be done or dont you agree
[20:18] <LaserJock> but generally it's pretty loose
[20:18] <LaserJock> yes, it is lacking
[20:18] <LaserJock> I think primarily because we don't have a lot of people
[20:18] <ace_suares> so waht do i do then?
[20:18] <mhall119> ace_suares: if a long-time Debian maintaner wanted to do something with Edubuntu,their debian work contributes to their merit
[20:18] <LaserJock> for instance
[20:18] <ace_suares> I wnat to contribute, but what to contribute?
[20:19] <LaserJock> you are already starting!
[20:19] <ace_suares> at the moment i am trying to make a proposal how the wiki can look
[20:19] <LaserJock> right
[20:19] <ace_suares> and it includes a download page that probably will disappear in the final version
[20:19] <ace_suares> is that okay ?
[20:19] <mhall119> ace_suares: have you past experience cleaning up wikis or making them more user-friendly?
[20:19] <LaserJock> why not?
[20:20] <ace_suares> okay then. Please keep the comments coming, they are very valuable for me. The earlier you comment the less unneeded work I am going to do and the more direction the work will get.
[20:20] <ace_suares> For instance, lining the icons in all the different pages is intersting the least
[20:20] <ace_suares> you need to re upload thenm on every page
[20:21] <LaserJock> what's wrong with the current page?
[20:21] <ace_suares> the solution i found is this page https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/SiteImages
[20:21] <ace_suares> in other pages you can link to those images (ubuntu logo and such)
[20:21] <ace_suares> that keeps the repeatedly used images in one place and it's easy to change them troughtout the wiki
[20:22] <ace_suares> I dont know if that's the right soultion, becuase I don't know if there are other solutions
[20:22] <ace_suares> so i am trying this out now
[20:22] <ace_suares> and if comments coming in saying that it can be done better, I'll change it if it makes sense.
[20:23] <ace_suares> also, it would have bene very nice to be able to include a footer of some kind
[20:23] <ace_suares> moinmoin docs say that there is an <<INCLUDE>> directive but that doesn't work on this wiki
[20:23] <ace_suares> maybe it's turned off
[20:23] <LaserJock> it works
[20:23] <LaserJock> we can do headers and footers
[20:23] <ace_suares> that's too bad because repeating stuff at the bottom could be easily maintained very simpel in one place
[20:23] <ace_suares> i think i can not do headers and footers from my account
[20:24] <ace_suares> and besides the include is more interesting
[20:24] <LaserJock> it's probably just a syntax thing
[20:24] <ace_suares> you can make a 'team' page and then include that page as PART of another page.
[20:24] <ace_suares> If you look at the wiki now there's couple of pages that specify all teams
[20:25] <ace_suares> if that part was included from one file than updates to the team would be in one palce and propagate trough the wiki
[20:25] <ace_suares> now there is some merit for you ;-)
[20:25] <ace_suares> If you can find out LaserJock how to do includes, it would help me very much.
[20:25] <LaserJock> ace_suares: so I'm wondering specifically what you don't like about the current page?
[20:25] <ace_suares> http://moinmo.in/HelpOnMacros/Include
[20:26] <LaserJock> you do <<Include(Page)>>
[20:26] <ace_suares> I dont know shoudl I discuss that now? or via the mailing list? It seems like a waste sometimes to just discuss it in irc and tomorrow someelse will say another thing.
[20:26] <ace_suares> LaserJock: I think I tried it. Maybe you try it and show me what I did wrong.
[20:27] <LaserJock> ace_suares: here's an example use: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Header
[20:27] <ace_suares> thx!
[20:28] <ace_suares> so maybe it has to do with the path
[20:28] <ace_suares> I will try.
[20:28] <LaserJock> ace_suares: are you mostly concerned about changing the layout?
[20:28] <ace_suares> I made this https://wiki.edubuntu.org/WikiSite/BigFooter
[20:28] <ace_suares> wnat to include that on some pages
[20:28] <ace_suares> no i am not concerned on the layout if you read the message to uwe carefully you'll see my thoiughts about it
[20:29] <ace_suares> it's structure, maintainability, and logical flow trough the site
[20:29] <ace_suares> layout is something afterwards
[20:30] <ace_suares> COOL ! it works!
[20:30] <LaserJock> I guess I'm confused as to what is wrong with the current page
[20:30] <LaserJock> other than it needing to be updated and maybe compacted a bit
[20:30] <ace_suares> is it okay if i explain that later?
[20:31] <ace_suares> takes a couple of words and I'd rather do it in plain view
[20:31] <LaserJock> I guess so
[20:31] <LaserJock> I would just say that it's important to keep in mind that it's not primarily targeted to end-users
[20:31] <ace_suares> also, i am adding pages but I am not removing or moving pages. Shold have to much influence on th ecurrent site.
[20:31] <ace_suares> Shouldn't
[20:31] <LaserJock> the target would be for potential and current contributors
[20:32] <LaserJock> sure, no problem
[20:32] <ace_suares> as a potential contributor, I got lost in the site almost immediatley
[20:32] <LaserJock> on that page specifically?
[20:32] <LaserJock> I agree that the site as a whole is a mess
[20:32] <ace_suares> What is the difference between Community and Develop ?
[20:32] <ace_suares> as long as we agree on that we are good ;-)
[20:33] <LaserJock> Community is ... people, communication, etc.
[20:33] <ace_suares> Why is wiki.edubuntu.org not at all prominently edubuntu?
[20:33] <LaserJock> how do you mean?
[20:35] <LaserJock> ace_suares: hmm, you need to watch the path on some of your pages
[20:35] <LaserJock> ace_suares: they should all start with Edubuntu/ to keep the namespace clean
[20:35] <ace_suares> yeah that was an error i made on the beginning. I am on top of that now. No worries :-)
[20:36] <ace_suares> I just moved WikiSite/BigFooter to Edubuntu/WikiSite/BigFooter
[20:36] <LaserJock> k
[20:37] <ace_suares> I'd like you to follow closely but come up with suggestions... not 'commands'.,.. please?
[20:39] <LaserJock> so I think the idea with Community and Develop was that Community was to gather community info and governance. The "people stuff"
[20:39] <LaserJock> and Develop was more the technical things like todo lists, roadmaps, etc.
[20:39] <LaserJock> more the mechanics
[20:40] <ace_suares> I think they are partly overlapping. It shows in the pages. Teams is on many places. I gotta analyse it a bit more.
[20:40] <LaserJock> yeah, there probably is some overlap
[20:40] <LaserJock> I like how you used "Grow Edubuntu"
[20:41] <LaserJock> actually
[20:41] <LaserJock> I'm not sure that Community belongs on the wiki page other than to point to edubuntu.org/Community
[20:42] <LaserJock> so "Community", "Get Edubuntu", and "Need Support?" should be just links to edubuntu.org
[20:42] <LaserJock> and then Grow Edubuntu is the main trust of the wiki
[20:42] <ace_suares> thank you LaserJock about the 'Grow Edubuntu' thing. I think if you read my proposal page instead of the current page, you'll find it much more alluring...
[20:43] <ace_suares> LaserJock: so "Community", "Get Edubuntu", and "Need Support?" should be just links to edubuntu.org
[20:43] <ace_suares>  -- I can agree with that
[20:43] <ace_suares> My toughts mor eor less
[20:43] <ace_suares> except that edubuntu.org is a mess too
[20:43] <LaserJock> yes
[20:43] <LaserJock> one thing at a time :-0
[20:43] <LaserJock> :-) rather
[20:43] <ace_suares> gotaa clean up the wiki and define clearly waht those icons meen
[20:43] <ace_suares> then fix the website too
[20:44] <LaserJock> ace_suares: what do you think of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam as a team landing page?
[20:45] <ace_suares> i like the header I will study that header too
[20:45] <ace_suares> I will tell you what i think about that page as I am progressing trough the site
[20:45] <ace_suares> it has many drawbacks mainly there is no overview
[20:45] <ace_suares> a table of contents would imporove it already greatly
[20:46] <ace_suares> you need an overview what you cna expext on the page else you wont scroll down
[20:47] <ace_suares> damn how you escapce {{attachment:file.png}} so that it shows the literal text?
[20:50] <LaserJock> {{{ }}} maybe
[20:50] <ace_suares> sp {{{{{ }}}}} or just {{{ }}}
[20:50] <LaserJock> just
[20:51] <ace_suares> no all five :-)
[20:51] <ace_suares> thx
[20:51] <LaserJock> oh, you wanted the {{ too
[20:52] <ace_suares> yeha becau you would paste that into the page
[20:52] <LaserJock> right
[20:53] <ace_suares> look: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/SiteImages
[20:53] <ace_suares> if youpaste them in yuour page they will show the correct image AND a alt-text (for accessabiity_
[20:54] <ace_suares> and if you ever want to chage the edubuntu logo troughout the site, it's done in ONE edit :-)))
[20:54] <ace_suares> now is that good or bad ...
[20:55] <ace_suares> gotta go to a party now
[20:55] <ace_suares> thx LaserJock for being involved!
[20:56] <ace_suares> mhall119 too
[20:56] <mhall119> what?  I wasn't paying attention\
[20:56] <ace_suares> mhall119 just thanking you that's all
[20:56] <mhall119> oh, I didn't do anything
[21:01] <ace_suares> LaserJock: will you send a mail to the list sufggesting that the three buttons go to the one site and the grow edubuntu goes to the wiki ? would help tremendously
[21:01] <ace_suares> gotta go now bye