[00:09] <shtylman> evand: oh my...I am surprised you merged it...I still need to give the manual partition page some treatment...
[00:09] <shtylman> evand: but alas :) this will motivate me for this weekend...
[00:09] <shtylman> also...as per the keyboard...my plan is not to use images but to instead query the system for the proper character
[00:10] <shtylman> I think I have come up with a way to do this...
[00:10] <shtylman> my goal is to show the lower case characters and when the user clicks the "shift" button show the upper case ones
[00:10] <shtylman> I feel that that will be much better at displaying the keyboard layout :)
[00:10] <evand> shtylman: Riddell asked me to review it.
[00:10] <evand> shtylman: how will you determine positioning?
[00:12] <shtylman> evand: positioning?
[00:12] <evand> of the keys relative to each other
[00:13] <shtylman> ahh...ok .. so I have a .ui file with a keyboard of blank buttons
[00:13] <shtylman> (already done actually)
[00:13] <shtylman> each button on the keyboard has an attribute (currently the object name) that corresponds to the keycode
[00:13] <shtylman> or something very close to the keycode...I forget the exact name
[00:14] <shtylman> cjwatson was telling me to reference something for ideas...but it elludes me right now..
[00:14] <shtylman> anyhow...
[00:14] <shtylman> when you select a new layout
[00:14] <evand> oh, if he's on board then great
[00:14] <evand> as my understanding of keyboard layouts pales in comparison to his
[00:14] <shtylman> evand: I wouldn't say he is on board
[00:14] <shtylman> he just poitned me in the right direction :)
[00:15] <evand> well, I mean if he thinks it is doable
[00:15] <shtylman> he gave words of caution like you :)
[00:15] <evand> mine are sourced from my memory of what he said
[00:15] <shtylman> I will poke it at a bit more tonight... I think (decently confident) that I can get a prototype going
[00:16] <shtylman> will send that along if I do for further review
[00:16] <shtylman> but yea...the goal is no images...
[00:16] <evand> something along the lines of "we looked into this long, long ago.  There is information available to query, but it's mostly lies."
[00:16] <shtylman> and to query the system for the unicode character info
[00:16] <shtylman> hahaha
[00:16] <evand> very cool
[00:17] <evand> How's the city treating you?  Has Manhattan turned into a seasonal furnace yet?
[00:18] <shtylman> nope...this week has been a bit hotter than most...but I am told the summer has been a cool one
[00:18] <shtylman> city is great...walked through central park today on the way home..to relax after a long week :)
[00:18] <evand> It's most certainly good for that
[00:19] <shtylman> indeed
[00:22] <evand> oh!
[00:23] <evand> if you ever find yourself on the other side of the river in Hoboken
[00:23] <evand> go to a place called Benny's on Washington St.
[00:23] <evand> it's about halfway down, pretty much a straight shot from Stevens Tech
[00:23] <shtylman> which river :) ?
[00:23] <evand> I would argue it's the best pizza you'll ever eat
[00:23] <shtylman> nice
[00:24] <evand> hudson, the one you can walk across due to the massive amount of cars, bodies, and waste dumped in it
[00:25] <shtylman> hahaha
[00:29] <shtylman> evand: what do you think of the new installer kde has ?  over the top? or just right :)
[00:29] <shtylman> *kubuntu
[00:30] <shtylman> am I gonna get to see some blind from the gnome side ;)
[00:31] <evand> shtylman: I was originally on the fence, as I was afraid having a full screen install would, as other have argued, discourage users from playing with the live CD.  Equally, I thought having breadcrumbs on the left hand side would use up too much space.  But I think I was wrong, and it looks quite stunning.
[00:31] <evand> Really good work.  Thanks for taking it on.
[00:31] <evand> I've got to go pick up the girlfriend.
[00:32] <evand> Catch you later
[00:32] <shtylman> yea...I really went in with all those considerations (as you have stressed them to me in the past) and tried to work around it
[00:32] <evand> Enjoy your weekend
[00:32] <shtylman> take care
[00:32] <shtylman> you too
[00:32] <evand> thanks
[00:32] <evand> ah, I appreciate you giving consideration to them
[03:40] <shtylman> cjwatson: http://shtylman.com/stuff/kubuntu_installer/keyboard.tar.gz
[03:40] <shtylman> and just run keys.py
[03:40] <shtylman> thats the idea :)
[09:20] <CIA-4> grub-installer: cjwatson * r795 ubuntu/ (6 files in 3 dirs): merge from Debian 1.40
[09:25] <CIA-4> grub-installer: cjwatson * r796 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.40ubuntu1
[12:52] <shtylman> evand: http://shtylman.com/stuff/kubuntu_installer/keyboard.tar.gz
[12:53] <shtylman> and run the keys.py file
[12:53] <shtylman> thats a prototye of what I have in mind..
[13:42] <evand> I'm still not sure if the slight variations of key placement are going to throw people off.  Unfortunately I don't understand the issue well enough to speak authoritatively on it.  cjwatson, may I ask what your thoughts on this are?
[14:19] <shtylman> evand: what do you mean by slight variations specifically? how does a user currently detect slight variantions? (also...my intent. is to make it so that when you hit the shift key (or button) it will show you the shifted characters)
[14:20] <shtylman> that was teh user can see all of their keys
[14:20] <evand> well, for instance, I have the pipe key between z and shift.  I'm sure there are better examples though.
[14:22] <shtylman> oh...you mean keyboard layout variations...
[14:22] <shtylman> instead of the default pc105
[14:22] <shtylman> ?
[14:23] <shtylman> out of curiosity...this pipe key... what keyboard layout do you select? and what keyboard model is it... if not a standard pc105?
[14:34] <cjwatson> my concern is essentially that an image of a typical desktop keyboard will look completely different from a laptop keyboard (and indeed there's no such thing as a typical laptop keyboard) despite being the same from XKB's point of view, and this will confuse users who don't know which bits are important
[14:44] <shtylman> I see
[14:45] <shtylman> my main goal is to make it a bit more obvious which keyboard you will have without the (what I feel to be) very awkward...type random stuff here box
[14:46] <shtylman> going a bit further...I chose that layout because it is the same layout people see everywhere..from typing tutors to on screen keyboards
[14:46] <shtylman> many are familiar (at least I think so) with the *typical* keyboard layout...and arn't offput by it... that having been said...I do realize there are keyboards out there not like that one .. and laptops..well thats a mess
[14:47] <shtylman> would it be better to provide the box in addition to?
[14:47]  * shtylman is a visual person and thus likes the feedback from an onscreen keyboard display to show what my keyboard may look like
[14:48] <shtylman> I am open to other suggestions in this area... in helping the user understand their choice
[14:49] <shtylman> that is really my main goal
[15:17] <CIA-4> usb-creator: evand * r130 usb-creator/debian/ (changelog control): Depend on python-qt4-dbus. Thanks Daniel T. Chen (LP: #404553).
[15:33] <evand> I think the best thing we can do is to rewrite/port cdebconf-keystep (the "press the following keys to detect your keyboard" bit of code in debian-installer)
[15:33] <evand> to ubiquity
[15:34] <evand> if we do down the road of showing keyboard layouts graphically, we should try to get some user testing done on it
[15:35] <shtylman> evand: maybe...but even then...that always felt a bit...awkward... ... yea... I agree
[15:35] <shtylman> maybe we (assuming other kubuntu people agree) can put in that prototype (cleaned up a bit)
[15:35] <shtylman> and see what people say?
[15:36] <shtylman> and then pull it out for the next alpha if people don't like it?
[15:36] <evand> sure.  I would suggest talking to celeste, or whomever does usability work in KDE these days, and see if you can get some input from them, or some user testing work done on it.
[15:36] <shtylman> or we can just send the prototype program around for people to play around with and see if they find it informative enough to see the keyboard display
[15:36] <shtylman> k
[15:39] <shtylman> I will ask for them to look at it :)
[15:40] <evand> good deal