=== mhall1191 is now known as mhall119|eeepc
Ahmuckhello all02:20
=== OldSchool is now known as vorian
LaserJockace_suares: still around?05:38
ace_suareshey are u awake ?05:40
LaserJockugg, we need to fix the Launchpad teams too :/05:41
LaserJockyes, I'm awake05:41
ace_suaresI am nearly off to bed. thx for your comments! I would like you to look at what I did with the teams pages.05:42
ace_suaresCould you follow me for a while and then after that react ???05:42
ace_suaresor have something else on your mind ?05:42
LaserJockno, go for it05:42
ace_suarestell me if you;re done reading05:42
ace_suares(plz implicitly included in all my text, kk?)05:43
LaserJockace_suares: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument ?05:43
ace_suaresnope want me to do tha tnow ?05:44
ace_suaresstill i'd like you to follow for a while, plz?05:44
ace_suaresLaserJock: ?05:46
ace_suareshere comes stage 205:46
LaserJockjust got done reading it05:46
ace_suaresjust an example though05:46
ace_suaresplz look at the raw text too05:47
ace_suaresnow look here: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/StyleGuide05:47
ace_suaresnow look at the raw text of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams05:48
* LaserJock feels like ace_suares is going to hate him05:48
ace_suaresno problem i am just trrying out things and learn a lot on the way05:49
ace_suaresI am just gonna ask you now, do you think this setup is workable?05:49
ace_suaresIt provides for easy adding and changing individual team pages under responsibility of that team05:49
LaserJockI think the includes thing is cool, I just don't think Teams is the place to do05:50
ace_suaresand the main team page (or wherever the teams are listes) is very easy one line include05:50
ace_suareswhy not ?05:50
LaserJockI don't think we need a teams page particularly05:50
LaserJockthe Launchpad team pages have the description05:50
ace_suareswill you look at this page for a sec? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort05:50
ace_suaresscroll down to the end05:50
LaserJocksee it05:51
ace_suaresthats' the current state of teams pages05:51
ace_suaresdiffernet url's, listst that are not complete (like yours)... how to streamline that?05:51
LaserJockwell the plan is05:52
LaserJockto get control of the teams05:52
LaserJockand slim them down05:52
ace_suareswell you should really tell me if there is a plan to all this, buddy :-)05:52
ace_suaresbut thats a good paln05:52
LaserJockthere's always a plan05:52
ace_suaresyeah i need to know though05:53
LaserJockbut nobody every does anything about it05:53
ace_suaresi am doing things without a plan05:53
ace_suaresa lot of things05:53
LaserJockI just can't keep up with you very well05:53
ace_suaresso with a plan it would evne be quicker05:53
ace_suareshe he05:53
ace_suaresi am just trying things out05:53
ace_suarestrying out structures05:53
ace_suaresand then we can look if they are okay or not05:53
LaserJockok, but what about moving the user docs to help.ubuntu.com/community?05:53
ace_suaresi was not going to build all team pages like this before we could agree05:54
ace_suaresthis is just a sample of what *could* be05:54
ace_suaresuser docs? if you give me a list of user docs that need to be moved i'll move them, told you before05:54
ace_suaresi can't get the list05:54
LaserJockjust search around05:55
ace_suaresI can search for Edubuntu turns up 246 pages05:55
ace_suaresI want to restructure and cleanip the whole wiki05:55
LaserJockLTSP and similar are more likely to get something05:55
ace_suaresin a form that you /we can all agree on05:55
LaserJockbut perhaps it's good to start small05:55
LaserJockbefore revolutionizing the whole thing :-)05:55
ace_suaresi think this is rather small05:55
ace_suaresI can do 246 pages in a couple of days, really05:56
ace_suaresif I know where to go with it05:56
ace_suaresand what is there aginast revolutizoning05:56
LaserJockwell, it's not easy05:56
ace_suaresit's good thing05:56
ace_suaresit's not easy cause there is no plan05:56
ace_suaresthe techniques are easy and interesting05:56
LaserJockno, but moving a page can be a lot of work05:56
ace_suaresthe actual doing it is pretty boring but fast05:56
LaserJocktrying to figure out the web of links05:56
ace_suaresit's not05:56
LaserJockupdating everything05:57
LaserJockredirects if necessary, etc.05:57
ace_suaresall user docs are one page05:57
ace_suaresor not?05:57
ace_suareswithout links05:57
ace_suaresshow me one05:57
LaserJockand you should do a google search05:57
LaserJockto see if other people link to the page05:57
ace_suaresoh well, that's a simple thing05:57
LaserJockand interwiki search to see if there are any links and fix if needed05:57
LaserJockit's not *huge*05:58
ace_suaresevery page that gets moved gets a redirect in the page like #redirect someurl05:58
ace_suaresit will do the redirect properly05:58
LaserJockbut I can't do more than 5-10 pages a day05:58
ace_suaressearch engines will learn05:58
ace_suaresI can do 100 pages a day if i knew what to do05:58
ace_suareswhy so conservative?05:59
ace_suaresright now i am only making new pages05:59
LaserJockbecause, 1) it's the wiki team policy05:59
ace_suaresto build the structure05:59
LaserJock2) it's not nice to break05:59
LaserJock3) this is how we get into a big mess05:59
ace_suareswhy should it break?> and dont see that05:59
ace_suareswhy shoudl we break? I don't see that05:59
LaserJockbecause we should delete pages if we can06:00
LaserJockotherwise we just add more and more pages06:00
ace_suaresno, never, just redirect06:00
ace_suaresokay really obsolte pages can be deleted06:00
LaserJockthe goal is deletion where possible06:00
LaserJockbut being careful about it06:00
ace_suareswhy? what's the problem with redirect?06:00
LaserJockbecause the redirected page shows up just the same06:00
LaserJockin searches, etc.06:01
ace_suaresdoes it? there's 2 ways of redirect06:01
ace_suareswith http refresh06:01
ace_suaresand with #redirect06:01
ace_suares I think the latter gives a 30306:01
ace_suaressearch engines learn from that06:01
LaserJockso I want to make a search of Edubuntu *not* give you 250+ page06:01
LaserJockwiki redirects show up as regular pages until you click on them06:02
ace_suaresclick on the first link06:02
ace_suaresso how can we delete without breaking ?06:03
LaserJockyou're gonna have to either break of leave the redirect06:03
ace_suaresneed to go to sleep in 2 min just smoked last sigarette06:03
LaserJockhence why we need to be careful with where we put stuff!06:04
ace_suaresso what are you proposing06:04
LaserJockwell, that one is fairly heavily linked so we have to leave the redirect06:04
LaserJockif there's no outside links we can delete and fix internal wiki links06:04
ace_suaresif we give each redirect page a CategoryEdubuntuRedirected, then we can search in wiki with '-CategoryEdubuntuRedirect' and only real pages will show up06:05
LaserJockwell, we need to be careful with Categories too06:05
LaserJockor we get too many06:05
LaserJockbut that is definitely a good thought06:05
ace_suaresohhh! thnak you :-)06:05
LaserJockmaybe we could use a generic category06:06
ace_suaresI dont want to break either but there is no way you can do a cleanup without hurting something06:06
LaserJocklike CategoryEdubuntuObsolete or something06:06
ace_suaresis fine it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same06:06
ace_suaresAnd what if outside links refer to pages we think should be deleted?06:07
ace_suaresIt just takes some time06:07
ace_suaresI can give you a NICE example06:07
LaserJockwe just set up a redirect06:07
ace_suaresi totally agree but for the DELETED pages (where the content is really obsolete) we can redirect to a generic error page that leads to the home page or so06:08
ace_suareslook at the first link06:08
ace_suaresI edited that lik06:08
ace_suaressince highvoltage moved HIS photo's06:09
ace_suaresso the link was not working at all but was still on edubuntu pages06:09
ace_suaresand the hotos where still there just moved (/v/ somewhere in url06:09
LaserJockI'm trying to think if an example where we really wanted to delete a page (and it was ok to do so) but we wanted to redirect somewhere06:10
ace_suaresalso the 1 2 3 links ion that page dont work but could be my internet error so i left them06:10
LaserJockI think we'd just want to delete the page06:10
ace_suaresthere is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval06:11
ace_suaresall pages that we think should be deleted and not directed should go there06:11
ace_suaresthen one day we can sit an dgo trough th elist and say this goes that stays06:12
LaserJockif people can do initial triage06:12
ace_suaresif the list is there, it's easy :-)06:12
ace_suaresI am afraid I am doing the triage now :-)06:12
LaserJockit's a great way to contribute!06:13
ace_suaresbut we could ask 5 people to spend 2 hrs and give them a 50 links06:13
ace_suaresthats 250 links06:13
ace_suaresand let them do one thing: say proposed for removal or leave it as it is06:13
ace_suaresthen we'd have our distributed triage06:13
ace_suaresand then we could ask the 5 people for 2 hrs to do that list and say for each link 'CategoryLaserJokAgrees' or disagrees06:14
ace_suaresand then do a good search and it will give us all pages to be deleted06:14
ace_suaresdid you notice how many people wnated to contribute since last week ?06:15
ace_suares3 or so06:15
ace_suaresi think we can harnass their enthousiams by giving them plain task06:15
ace_suareslike a list of links and the taks to 'add categoryxyz to those pages'06:15
ace_suaresor 'copy those pages to /bla/bli/pagename'06:16
ace_suarespoeple love to be told what to do06:16
ace_suaresit's takes off a part of the responsibility06:16
ace_suaresin the end we'll have our cleand up wiki06:16
ace_suaresand some styleguides as to new pages (making templates)06:17
ace_suaresand then the janitor job is simple06:17
ace_suaresto keep it focussed for like one or two releases06:17
ace_suaresthats what i think could happen06:17
LaserJockso here's sort of how would like to see this go down06:17
* ace_suares is all ears06:17
LaserJockyou and hopefully some other people who're willing to help06:18
LaserJockgo through the wiki page and flag for deletion/moving/updating06:18
LaserJockso that they show up on the wiki cleanup page06:19
LaserJockthen one or all of the core Edubuntu people can go through and sign off06:19
LaserJockhow does that sound?06:20
ace_suaresvery good!06:20
LaserJockso let's do that first before messing with the structure for now06:20
LaserJockafter we've cleaned cruft06:20
LaserJockwe can look at what's left and figure out the best structure06:20
ace_suareshow would 'we' know how to 'move' a page if there is no new structure?06:21
ace_suaresdeleting is fine06:21
LaserJockbecause moving should be for user documentation06:21
ace_suaresupdating is difficult since... who will update?06:21
LaserJockif it's an easy update you guys can do it06:21
LaserJockif it's not just flag it06:21
ace_suaresI think if you are doing it like that you are missing an opportunity to make it a good wiki06:21
LaserJockhow so?06:22
ace_suaresbut it sure will help06:22
ace_suaresbecaue if you know the ne3w structure (and it's not that difficult) then you can flag the moves correctly06:22
ace_suaresand when you all sign off on the move06:22
ace_suaresthen it's simple for 'us' to do it06:22
LaserJockwell, let's worry about that as a secondary thing06:22
LaserJockthe idea is as a first step to clean cruft06:23
LaserJockand *then* make the structure as we want06:23
ace_suareswell if you want... but look again at the team page ehh. wait..06:23
ace_suaresat he bottom06:23
ace_suaresthat is a search on 'edubuntu team'06:23
ace_suaresHow should i flag EdubuntuItalianTeam?06:24
ace_suaresor testingTeam06:24
ace_suaresor... more weird NicaraguanTeam?06:24
ace_suaresyou need to think of an algoritm06:24
ace_suaresthat we lowly contributors can work with06:24
LaserJockwell, unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy06:25
ace_suaresit's unfortunately that you think that or unfortunately that it is not so easy ???06:25
LaserJockif a page looks questionable you can just flag it06:25
ace_suaresflag it how?.. in this paticular case?06:26
LaserJockyou can just put it on the wiki cleanup page with a note06:27
ace_suaresah now you complicate things!06:27
ace_suaresfor me to just add a category to a wiki page is simple06:27
LaserJockyes, but it's not that easy in some cases06:27
ace_suaresfor me to make a list of pages with notes, very time consuming and prone to errors06:27
ace_suareslet the category mechanism do the work for us06:28
LaserJockwere a category works, fine06:28
LaserJockbut in some cases I think it's good to have notes06:28
ace_suares'flag' means add a category and you can make as many as you want06:28
LaserJockno, don't make as many as you want06:28
ace_suaresthey will be empty afterwards, after the clean up06:28
LaserJockit just make a big mess06:28
LaserJockthey need to make sense06:28
ace_suaresthey need to make sense for the clean up yes06:29
ace_suareslike a local variable after the clean up they will all be gone06:29
ace_suaresa category only exsits if there is pages that have that category06:29
LaserJockright, I'm just saying sometimes a simple category flag is insufficient and doesn't allow for discussion06:29
ace_suareswell you are maybe right but try to imagine making a list of 100 pages by copying the URL and then add a note06:30
ace_suareswhat order the need to be in06:30
LaserJockI'm just saying for the non-obvious ones06:30
LaserJocklike probably < 1006:30
ace_suaresif you do something with that page you need  to do bookkeeping on that order page06:30
ace_suareswell you can make a category 'WithNotes' and in that page make the note,s that would work06:31
LaserJockwell, I don't care so much06:31
ace_suaresbut still. how should i flag italianteam? looking for guidance here to complete a task... seriously...06:32
LaserJockI just find categories to get messy if overly done so I try to avoid doing too many06:32
ace_suaresyeah in the wiki i agree06:32
ace_suareswe could also discuss what categories would end up in the cleaned up wiki06:32
ace_suaresi think 4-6 would be really enough06:32
LaserJockEdubuntuItalianTeam is a redirect06:32
LaserJockso I'm not sure we do anything with it06:32
ace_suareswell at least make it catergory is redirect to make local search in moinmoin better06:33
LaserJockI guess so06:34
ace_suaresor maybe not]06:34
ace_suaresbut at leas tit needs a guid line06:34
ace_suaresit's like writing softwar efor humans06:34
LaserJockdo - searches work on the wiki?06:34
ace_suaresyou need specs06:34
ace_suaresand rules/code06:34
ace_suaresso the HPU (Human Processor Units) know what to do06:34
ace_suarestry 'edubuntu -cookbook - handbook'06:35
ace_suaresand try just 'edubuntu'06:36
LaserJockok cool06:36
LaserJockso yeah, we should add a redirect category to redirects06:36
LaserJockthat would be a great triage task06:36
ace_suaresyou can even embed search in a page <<FullSearchCached('edubuntu -cookbook') and that page will always show all those that match06:36
ace_suaresyes it would very clear and consice06:37
ace_suareshttps://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval check out the raw text on that one06:38
LaserJockI don't see an existing CategoryRedirect06:38
LaserJockperhaps we should email the doc team and see if that could be an Ubuntu-wide thing06:39
ace_suaresNo but it should be CategoryEdubuntuRedirect as not to mess with the others06:39
LaserJockI don't know why it shouldn't be Ubuntu-wide06:39
ace_suaresha ha now you make it larger then needed06:39
ace_suaresbut its' possible like CategorySpec does ALL specs06:39
ace_suaresI added CategoryEdubuntuSpec so they can be seperated06:40
LaserJockthere's no real reason to distinguish between Ubuntu redirects and Edubuntu redirects06:40
LaserJockyeah, that's all historic06:40
LaserJockoriginal Edubuntu was just a part of Ubuntu really and there weren't that many specs06:40
LaserJocknow it make a lot more sense to have a separate category06:41
ace_suareswhatever you say, but if you decide to lets' say vet all Edubuntu redirect and delete a couple of them after vetting06:41
ace_suaresthen you will be in toruble06:41
LaserJockhow so?06:41
ace_suaresbeacuse how wil you make a list of things to vet?06:41
LaserJockwell, I'd imagine Edubuntu CategoryRedirect06:42
ace_suaresyeah that might work06:42
ace_suarescan you make a small mail for the devel outlining this discussion as a start to defining the triage task ?06:44
ace_suaresjust the general outlines and ideas where we are going?06:44
ace_suaresyou did well on the last one06:44
ace_suaresit's important that all know about it and not just those listening in here (whihc seems to be none)06:44
ace_suaresi really need to go now i very much appreciate the time you are taking to talk this trough06:45
LaserJockwill do06:46
LaserJockand thanks06:46
ace_suaresmorning all. not much time today for Edubuntu.14:31
humboltwho has tested an LTSP FAT client setup yet?14:48
highvoltagesbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?15:18
mhall119highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki15:41
highvoltagemhall119: indeed15:42
LaserJockace_suares: you sure do create a lot of work :-)18:58
Ahmuckedubuntu is funny19:07
LaserJock"haha" funny? or "OMG this is horrible" funny?19:08
Ahmuckcommunity driven, a throwaway child of ubuntu, dying in the clutches of administrative overhead all because it's dependence of ubuntu's resources.19:12
LaserJockit has nothing to do with ubuntu resources19:13
LaserJockubuntu's resources are quite good19:13
Ahmuckany reason then we need to use launchpad?19:13
LaserJockLaunchpad is an *excellent* tool19:14
LaserJockand I don't think there's a lot of administrative overhead19:14
LaserJockwhat seems to be lacking is people willing/able to put significant effort into it19:15
Ahmuckwhy the impass of getting things done in edubuntu?  every time someone comes along willing to make a push to get edubuntu moving along, someone throws a wet rag on them19:15
LaserJockI don't think people are trying to throw a wet rag19:15
LaserJockthey're maybe trying to guide the effort19:15
Ahmuckiirc, this morning i saw another unpleasent reference to someone willing to move edubuntu along.  real change comes from a small group of people willing to do someething, not large groups19:16
Ahmucklarge groups provide stablity for research and large corporations, but do little inovation19:16
LaserJockI don't understand what you mean19:16
LaserJockwhat large group are you referring to?19:16
Ahmucklook at what has been done to edubuntu.  it's lost anybody connected with paid developemnt19:16
LaserJockit did lose it's paid development19:17
Ahmucknow that it's fallen to volunteer individuals, a community effort, and getting the go ahead within the current structer, were still getting dampered.  shall i start listing the people that keep leaving, because they keep trying to get things done19:17
LaserJockyes, please do19:18
AhmuckLJ is there anybody that is doing full time dev on edubuntu?19:18
Ahmuckfrom conical19:18
LaserJockno, nobody is full time period19:18
LaserJockstgraber would be the closest on LTSP19:18
LaserJocksince his day job is LTSP19:18
Ahmuckstgraber: day job is ltsp?  with conical?19:19
LaserJockRevolution Linux19:19
LaserJockit's a commercial Ubuntu offshoot I believe19:19
Ahmucki get the impression that people are waiting in the corners to see if it succeeds.  if it does, claim it, if it doesn't let it die19:19
LaserJockwell, it won't ever succeed if everybody waits in the corners :(19:20
* Ahmuck wonders why it's called "revolution" linux ... he he19:20
LaserJockI can scream until I'm blue in the face saying what needs to be done19:20
LaserJockbut if nobody is willing to get into action on things then I'm not sure how we can move forward19:21
LaserJockand if people are willing to listen to those of us who have experience doing this stuff I'm not sure what exactly to do19:21
LaserJock*aren't willing19:21
Ahmuckback to the admin overhead, i've watched groups come togather, and they usually "settle" out.  guidence is good, but over guidence can be sour.  it really makes it sour when members of the group start calling names like "crazies"19:29
Ahmucksomeone's stepped up to offer help, the last thing you edubuntu needs is calling volunteers names19:30
LaserJockwho called people names?19:36
Ahmucklooks like my connection got reset, don't know what i missed19:40
ace_suareshi guys19:41
ace_suaresi am the 'crazy i suppose19:41
LaserJockAhmuck: who called people crazies?19:42
ace_suareshighvoltage: *sigh*19:42
ace_suareshighvoltage: sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?19:42
ace_suaresubottu [n=supybot@ubuntu/bot/ubottu] entered the room.19:42
ace_suaresmhall119: highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki19:42
ace_suareshighvoltage: mhall119: indeed19:42
mhall119who what?19:42
ace_suaresthis is what Ahmuck is talking about. I was not very happy with it but chose to let it pass.19:43
Ahmucklol, sorry19:43
ace_suaresThanks mhall119 for defending19:43
ace_suaresI do think it's a very bad attitude towards newcomers, though ;-)19:43
mhall119I wouldn't tall that defending, because I didn't think you were being attacked, just misunderstood19:44
mhall119they probably get a lot of people who jump in, give a lot of unsolicited advice, argue with anyone who doesn't agree, and then leave without doing a bit or work19:45
mhall119I wanted to clarify that you were indeed doing work, not just spouting off19:45
LaserJockwe do get a *lot* of that19:45
LaserJockor people who do all that and then screw around with stuff for a week or two and then leave everything in a mess19:46
ace_suaresI can understand that very well. I think when you would use launchpad better - especially the mentoring which I discoverd just today - then it would be easier to keep control and seperate the crazies from the workers !19:46
LaserJockwe've never used the mentoring19:47
LaserJockUbuntu doesn't really use it19:47
ace_suaresto be honest - i hadn't planned on workin more then a week full time on it - but the lack of 'low hanging fruit' go me into it deeper.19:47
LaserJockit's mostly considered a failed Launchpad feature19:47
ace_suaresreally? oh that's too bad.19:47
Ahmuckmentoring doesn't work without a mentor19:47
ace_suaresI think it should have been a great social structure19:47
LaserJockand for Launchpad19:47
ace_suaresof course you need mentors :-)19:47
Ahmuckhowever google seems to pull it off, perhaps because of the "cash"19:47
LaserJockit takes as much time, if not more, to do the whole mentoring thing as to just fix the darn thing19:48
LaserJockwell, I didn't say *mentoring* doesn't work19:48
LaserJockI said Launchpad's mentoring feature19:48
LaserJockUbuntu does quite a bit of mentoring19:48
LaserJockAhmuck: I think Edubuntu developers are just a bit frustrated, perhaps that comes off as a "wet blanket" but hopefully if people start stepping up that frustration will be alleviated19:49
ace_suaresI think your mail form last night LJ, about how we want to do the redirects and the proposal for removal, is an excellent case for mentoring. Define a couple of tasks (in a spec? in bugs?) and then try to find people trough the mailng list to do those tasks... what do you think? Rather without the LP mentoring feature?19:50
ace_suaresLaserJock: people will not step up if they are met with a certain attitude19:50
LaserJockI suppose19:50
LaserJockbut since they didn't step up any way I guess some of us are just a bit jaded19:51
ace_suareswhat.. nobody ever steppe dup ?19:51
ace_suaresstepped up???19:51
LaserJockI asked for help for 2 years and got next to nothing19:51
LaserJockI put off my PhD because of it19:51
ace_suaresLaserJock: well how did you ask for help do you think that could be part of the problem ? Just asking!19:52
LaserJockI asked on IRC, on Planet Ubuntu, on the mailing lists19:52
LaserJockI asked everywhere I could19:52
ace_suaresLaserJock: ohh hat's bad. well i am putting of the quotes i was supposed to make today and a project that gives immediate cash. BAD. BAD ACE. SILLY MAN.19:52
LaserJockI laid out specific things that could be done19:52
Ahmucklet's say 3 people had been mentored over the last 3 releases, 8.04 - 9.04 ... which i've been with edubuntu since.  you would have gained 3 more devs and would have 6 rather than 3 todsy19:53
ace_suaresI'd love to see the specific things you needed to be done. Of course if it's coding i can't help.19:53
LaserJockI sent an email saying exactly what things needed to be done for Jaunty's release19:53
ace_suareswas it all coding requests?19:53
LaserJockand I got *0* response19:53
LaserJockit was docs, website, and packaging19:53
LaserJockall minimal activities19:53
Ahmucke-mails are temporail19:54
LaserJockAhmuck: right, I agree would be nice to have had 3 people to mentor19:54
ace_suaresYou know, I shouldnt' say this, but I jumped in and I want to see this trough. At least till the website and the wiki are cleaned up. I really *need* the docs sometimes so it's very much in my benefit. It's just a huge amount of time. BHut I will try now to see this trough.19:54
LaserJockwe also need people willing to learn19:55
ace_suaresI think three people showed interest in helping. I want to try do the LP mentroing thing and se eif i can catch them to really help.19:55
ace_suaresand as a matte rof fact, uptill now I like your mentoring LaserJock :-)19:55
LaserJockone of the frustrations I've had in Edubuntu is that potential contributors seem to be very demanding in Edubuntu compared to Ubuntu as a whole19:55
ace_suaresYou need to help me on the mentoring in LP though LaserJock19:56
LaserJockEdubuntu gets a lot of demands and a lot of "this is what you're doing wrong"19:56
Ahmuckedubuntu has a void19:56
Ahmuckwhich may be causing your demading19:56
ace_suareswell, tyou're working with teachers. Have ever met a teacher who wants to learn from someone else? No offense, teachers!19:57
LaserJockthe fundamental problem though is not knowing what to do19:57
LaserJockI can tell you exactly what needs to be done, etc.19:57
Ahmuckbtw, is your phd done?19:57
LaserJockit's written19:57
LaserJockI defend Thursday19:57
Ahmuckyou need to be concentrating on defending imho19:58
LaserJockwell, there is that19:58
LaserJockbut I hate seeing things as they are19:58
Ahmuckit'll be easy to get to things as they are after thursday19:59
Ahmucktrust me, it won't fall apart19:59
ace_suaresLaserJock: lets work together on getting a list of easy tasks and then lets work together on have people do that stuff. I can mentor wiki changes. Lets also take one step back and do this during one whole month and see where we are come september.19:59
ace_suaresAhmuck is right it wont fall any more apart :-)20:00
LaserJockok, I can put a list of things together20:00
LaserJockbut people need to trust me and respond, you know20:00
LaserJockI know things would be much better if I had time to actually be active with getting these things done20:01
LaserJockand hopefully my new job will allow some of that20:02
LaserJockbut if people can just trust me for a bit I swear we can turn this around20:02
ace_suaresare you saying i don't trust you and dont' respond to you?20:02
LaserJockace_suares: you've done more in the last week than anybody else has done in 2 years20:02
ace_suaresLaserJock: and then some, I am involved in ltsp/eduntu since 2005 it's about time that I did something worthwile20:03
LaserJockso I hope you're just the beginning, but you can hopefully understand my frustration20:03
LaserJockand I know that other people have *wanted* to help20:04
ace_suaresbut I never knew what to do exactly and even now it's hard to find it out.20:04
LaserJockI'm not trying to put other people down20:04
LaserJockand I know a lot of people do excellent support work20:04
LaserJockbut I really need signification technical contribution20:04
ace_suaresi could have done a lto more if i knew what to be done now i was figuring out things along the way that's more work and  goes slower.20:04
LaserJockI need people who are willing to do packaging work20:04
ace_suaresLaserJock: well i can't help you with packaging before the wiki cleanup is completed20:05
ace_suaresI learnd packaging though, the very basic of it20:05
LaserJockif a person are able to do that then everything else comes fairly natural20:05
ace_suaresand i can promise to help you on20:05
ace_suares- help define the stuff in LP mentoring20:05
LaserJockpeople have this concept that a "developer" is some sort of uber coder20:05
ace_suares- do the actual work when the website and wiki are done20:05
ace_suaresLaserJock: well that's how some of them try to come off, anyway :-(20:06
LaserJockan OS developer is far from that20:06
LaserJockI'm a chemist20:06
LaserJockI've never taken a computer course in my life20:06
ace_suaresI am a generalist20:06
LaserJockI just learned by getting in there and doing20:06
ace_suaresheh i code since i am 1520:06
ace_suaresbut coding gets in the way of my social life20:07
ace_suaresso i don't do it full time20:07
ace_suaresand i don't do static type languages20:07
LaserJockso my point is if *I* can do it then I think a lot of people can20:07
ace_suaresjust ruby (on rails) and PHP and a little bash20:07
LaserJockand we just need to figure out how to excite them and enable them to do it20:07
ace_suaresLaserJock: I am very sorry, I am just concerned about the docs right now and I don't have much ears for the other problems20:08
ace_suaresi hope you can understand that and work with that20:08
ace_suaresI can do packaging too, in a couple of months20:08
LaserJockas long as there are other people who are concerned I certainly don't care one bit20:08
ace_suaresand if we can make the overall structure more clear and define short term goals for new recruits 9develoers too) we might win some.20:09
LaserJockpeople are welcome to work on areas that they want20:09
LaserJockthe wiki certainly needs help20:09
ace_suaresi thin ka good wiki will make it easier for new devleopers to join too.20:09
LaserJockbut I'm hoping we can get a few people into the more technical bit20:09
ace_suaresLaserJock: don't you understand you are making me feel less wanted ?20:09
LaserJockam I?20:10
ace_suaresyes... consider the following line on the wiki... wait...20:12
ace_suaresEven if you can't program software, there are many ways to get involved with the Edubuntu project, whether it's documentation, testing, packaging, artwork, or reviewing of material.20:13
ace_suares(from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/GetInvolved)20:13
ace_suareswhat do you think that message relays to people like me ?20:13
LaserJockthat people are welcome to get involved20:13
LaserJockI just don't understand why you would feel less wanted20:14
LaserJockI said "the wiki certainly needs help"20:14
ace_suaresno. it says well, we 'd rather talk to developers who can code, then you, but even if you can't code, we'll have some unimprtant jpob for you where we can't really care about much20:14
ace_suaresLaserJock: this is nothing personal ! I am trying to bend the way the 'community' looks at devs and non-devs20:14
LaserJockgood grief, that's not what it says20:14
LaserJockit's addressing a specific thing that Ubuntu has often found20:15
ace_suareswell, that's what people certainly can read20:15
LaserJockthat you have to be a coder to contribute20:15
ace_suaresIt's non-neutral.20:15
LaserJockthat statement *specifically* to contradict that notion20:15
ace_suaresIt states that the 'normal' way is to be a coder and EVEN it that's not you you still can help20:15
ace_suareswell let's not discuss it further, i KNOW it was ment to be a good statement but it's not.20:16
ace_suaresIt owuld e like saying even if you are a women you can still buy a toyota20:16
ace_suaresit's all perception!20:16
ace_suaresI think the deubuntu community has to become very carefull about what message it sends20:16
ace_suaresthat's my point20:17
ace_suaresthat's why i tried to change the wording on the new wiki homepage to be more neutral to the status of dev's . I don't know it that works, it needs review20:17
LaserJockbut frankly20:17
LaserJockI don't know how much people actually read this stuff20:17
ace_suareswell i read it20:17
ace_suaresisn't that enough?20:18
LaserJocksure, sure20:18
ace_suaresyou are aiming at like 3 new devs and 3 people that do other stuff in the next 3 months?20:18
LaserJockit's just easy for me to get a bit frustrated when there are *very* important issues that aren't being addressed20:18
LaserJockand we're debating wording20:18
LaserJockI know the issues are real issues20:18
ace_suaresthere you are doing it again.20:18
ace_suaresi personally can understand you frustrations20:19
LaserJockdo you realize we are very close to not having a release at all?!20:19
ace_suaresbut what can i do about it?20:19
ace_suaresno i didn't realize that20:19
ace_suaresbut how can i help to change that20:19
LaserJockwell, we need people willing to dig into packaging, bug triaging, and seed management20:20
ace_suaresthe only thin i think i can do is try to make the wiki and website better and help with getting more poeple involved albeit in the 'other' department20:20
LaserJockok, and that's OK20:21
ace_suareslike i said LaserJock lets setup these tasks in LP this week or the next and make sure we can mentor people into it so that if someone comes alon, the can start woking right away!20:21
ace_suaresinstead of slowly finding out what the hell it is all about20:21
LaserJockI don't mind you working on wiki and website, we *do* need that20:21
LaserJockbut it's not super high priority for me20:21
ace_suaresokay okay20:21
LaserJockso I'm not trying to dissuade you from your work20:21
ace_suaresso if  there is no one of the core members for who it's a high priority20:22
ace_suareswho will guide me then? No one?20:22
ace_suaresI'd better leave now then if the porospects are that bleak :-(20:22
LaserJockwell, that is a very difficult part of this20:22
LaserJockwe've known for a while that the problem with growing the community is that we have to have a community to grow it with20:22
LaserJockin order to do mentoring we need to have mentors20:23
ace_suareswell YOu need to be the mentors there are no others20:23
LaserJockso initially we need to have some pretty self-directed people20:23
LaserJockthat aren't going to need a ton of mentoring20:23
ace_suaresha ha20:23
Ahmucki feel the same way20:23
ace_suaresso I work my butt of for a new structure proposal, very self directed20:24
ace_suaresand the ogra says dont touch the specs20:24
ace_suaresand you say hey all the links should point outwards20:24
LaserJockhere's my advice20:24
ace_suaresand stuff20:24
LaserJockself-directed doesn't mean without discussion and advice20:24
Ahmucki've done source building, and creating debs from checkinstall, but as i recall, ubuntu packaging is a rather contovlvultued process20:24
ace_suaresyeah but who'll give advice if you don't20:24
LaserJockI can give advice20:25
ace_suaresin fact that makes you a mentor20:25
ace_suaresdoent it?20:25
LaserJockbut I can't be here 24x7 advising *after* the fact20:25
ace_suaresand why not?20:25
ace_suaresit's just a proposal20:25
ace_suaresyou can move things around after it is proposed20:25
ace_suaresthats the goal of a proposal isn't it?20:25
LaserJockok, well, frankly because we don't need a proposal so much20:25
LaserJockwe need people to implement know things moreso20:26
LaserJockagain, *not* that proposals are bad20:26
ace_suaresimplement as in coding?20:26
ace_suaresor packaging?20:26
LaserJockas in writing content, deleting pages, etc.20:26
ace_suaresI am glad you wrote up that email yesterday20:27
ace_suaresthat's a good start20:27
ace_suaresi rest my case for now20:27
LaserJockit's just that I'm going to be a bit slow20:27
LaserJockI'm in the middle of finish my PhD, moving across the US, starting a new job, selling a house20:28
ace_suaresbecasue you and I disagree that you need a good new structure before you can really move and delete20:28
ace_suaresHey it's okay to be slow20:28
LaserJockand my grandfather is in the hospital with terminal cancer at the moment20:28
ace_suaresI ma not going to keep up that pace20:28
LaserJockI'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm a bit delayed right now20:28
ace_suaresIt's okay to be slow20:28
ace_suaresas long as you say just those things that need saying20:29
ace_suareswhich you do20:29
LaserJockwhat I think it would have been a bit less frustrating if you'd asked about like the specs and links *first*20:29
ace_suaressorry about your grandfather20:29
ace_suaresbut what did i do with the specs?20:29
LaserJockI realize you probably didn't know20:29
ace_suareswhat did i do wrong20:29
ace_suaresno i knew nothing20:29
LaserJockI don't know what you did, you may not have done anything20:29
ace_suaresi fixed 4 specs20:29
ace_suaresi added CategoryEdubuntuSpec which is usefull to me20:30
LaserJockthe issue is that people will often just "cleanup" by deleting or moving specs20:30
LaserJockand that breaks things20:30
ace_suaresoh man20:30
ace_suaresi'd never do that20:30
LaserJockso ogra was just probably trying to make sure you didn't as it's been done before20:30
ace_suaresi put two of them in proposed for removal20:30
ace_suaresand ogra read that and expained that they should not be removed and so the system works!20:30
LaserJockso as long as you don't get discouraged by that we're all good20:31
LaserJockyou've learned a lot20:31
ace_suaresi didn't delete i just put them in proposed for removel20:31
LaserJockyou've done a lot20:31
ace_suaresbecasue that is the system20:31
LaserJockand we're all better for it20:31
ace_suaresfirst flag them and let the knowers decide20:31
ace_suaresthat's the procedure that can work20:31
ace_suareslike we discussed yesterday20:31
ace_suaresso we are good20:32
ace_suaresthere shoud be no fear on your side20:32
ace_suaresthat i will break things20:32
ace_suaresand if i break something by accident20:32
ace_suaresyou cna revert easily can't you (can you revert deletions?)20:32
LaserJockI think we can revert everything20:32
ace_suaresso even if i make an accident you, we can fix it20:33
ace_suaresso no fears then20:33
AhmuckLJ, u need to concentrate on your dissert, and your new job imho20:37
Ahmuckanywho, i'm out for the afternoon.20:38
Ahmuckace_suares: i followed the wiki links you gave, and that thing looks scary20:38
Ahmuckit's a mile long20:38
Ahmucki'm not sure how to contribute to the wiki20:41
Ahmuckam i disconnected again?20:45
ace_suaresAhmuck: ?21:04
ace_suaresbye for now!21:12
dgroos1Hi All22:46
dgroos1I'm trying to install CmapTools, an app that is critical in my classroom, as a localapp--if run on the server just 2-3 people using it overwhelms the server.22:48
dgroos1I can't figure how to install it on the chroot as it uses a graphical install--any ideas?22:49
gavinmci gather it doesn't work to just chroot into it with DISPLAY set?22:51
dgroos1can you translate that to newbie-speak? :)22:54
gavinmcah, sorry.22:54
gavinmcIf you run something like "sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386" (or wherever your chroot is based)22:55
gavinmcand run it what happens?22:55
gavinmcyou probably need to copy the file into the chroot before you do that.22:56
gavinmcshould i explain what chroot does?22:56
dgroos1I get the prompt: root@gcos2:/#22:57
dgroos1That would be great!22:57
gavinmcchroot is short for CHange ROOT22:57
gavinmcif you chroot to a particular directory, you get a shell which sees that directory as / and cannot see anything outside that directory22:58
gavinmcthat's what you've done.22:58
gavinmc(exit will get you out of it)22:58
dgroos1Ok... so then it would see the /opt... as the new root?22:58
gavinmcyou (hopefully) can now run the installer in the chrooted environment.22:59
dgroos1and the DISPLAY you mentioned earlier is to get an xterminal?22:59
dgroos1or something...22:59
gavinmcDISPLAY is an "environment variable"22:59
Ahmuckdgroos1: there is a section in the ltsp manual on chroot iirc http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot23:00
gavinmcit's a setting for the shell and tells graphical commands what display to send their windows to23:00
dgroos1Ahmuck--I'll be reading it, thanks!23:00
gavinmcyou can see it with "echo $DISPLAY"23:00
gavinmcyou might but might not need to set it after running the chroot command23:00
Ahmuckdgroos1: moreever, after reading chroot, there is also a section on local apps.  for setting the local apps up.  i assume you've done this already23:01
dgroos1:) w/the echo command I got this response :0.023:02
gavinmcthat means your sitting locally at the server.23:02
Ahmucku actually need to enable localapps in your lts.conf file23:03
dgroos1Ahmuck: I've googled and read everything I can find/understand on localapps for days...23:03
gavinmchave you managed to set up any localapp (eg firefox)?23:04
dgroos1Ahmuck: right, the manual I do need to read that.23:04
Ahmuckthe ltsp manual reading is essential to understanding how ltsp works.  it takes about an hour for me to read through it.23:04
dgroos1gavinmc: yes, I'm sitting at the server.  I have set up localapps and they are working (actually a volunteer has helped do that)23:04
Ahmuckit's an old saying but in this case it's fairly true23:04
gavinmcsetting up an ltsp app usually (I think) involves running apt-get install ... within a chroot.23:05
dgroos1however, he hasn't been able to get the NAT working so can't use Firefox on the thin clients yet.23:05
gavinmcwhat you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command23:05
gavinmcdid you go through the steps in the wiki?23:06
gavinmc(for NAT that is)23:08
dgroos1gavinmc: when you say: "what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command" do you mean that I need to run a command to start the... I think I get it.  I'll try it in a few moments and get back!  Thanks!23:09
gavinmcWhat I'd try is:23:09
dgroos1And, yes he used that page as the basis of his work and considered using ace's alternative solution though with the cautions at the end decided against it.23:09
gavinmc1. copy the installer file into the chroot. make sure it's executable (chmod +x <filename>)23:10
gavinmc2. chroot /opt/ltsp.......23:10
gavinmc3. ./<installerfile>23:10
gavinmcthere are various reasons that might not work, but it's the first thing to try23:11
gavinmcas regards the NAT, I'd like to spend a few minutes debugging if you have time.23:11
gavinmcI want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight23:11
Ahmuckgavinmc: i'd be interested in de-bugging that with you23:13
Ahmucki've tried local apps and am failing23:14
Ahmuckwhen i start firefox, i get 40423:14
dgroos1gavinmc: "I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight" Cool--I appreciate that attention to quality as it makes someone who is barely beyond the cookbook application of knowledge, successful.23:14
dgroos1gavinmc: let me try to apply what you've taught me/told me first then I'll be back--will that work?  will you still be around?23:15
Ahmuckthat's my same question.  i can get myself to the computer lab if  your going to be around today23:16
gavinmcI'm going to bed now I'm afraid. However, we could do it via email23:16
gavinmcmy email is gmccullagh _at_ gmail _dot_ com23:17
dgroos1:) not 5:17 in the afternoon where you are :)23:17
* Ahmuck hates gmail23:17
gavinmcbetter yet, could you email it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com23:18
dgroos1Shall I/we put it on the list serve to provide a resource for others?23:18
gavinmcI'm not really very irc-clued so I'll trust your judgement on that one23:18
gavinmcahmuck: do you hate it so much you won't send email to it?23:19
Ahmucki'll send to edubuntu-users23:19
Ahmuckgavinmc: almost23:19
dgroos1actually, I asked if we oughtn't send it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com or was implying that anyway.23:20
gavinmcBasically, if either/both of you can mail that list with a descriptive subject like "nat howto didn't work"23:20
gavinmcand include the output of each "test" that would be a good start23:20
gavinmcahmuck: :-)23:21
gavinmcon the wiki page there are tests beside several of the steps23:21
dgroos1Will do.  And thanks for your help, gavinmc.23:22
gavinmcI can stay up a little longer if one of you can get to a server now?23:22
Ahmuck15 min for me, but i do think i'll take it to the list23:22
dgroos1I can test it now... I'll try.23:23
gavinmcthat'd be great.23:23
gavinmcI've obviously missed some trap somewhere that you guys are falling into23:23
Ahmuckmy server works with ltsp, but it worked automagically.  i've not natted, but couldn't get firefox to work with ltsp23:24
Ahmuckin chroot/localapps23:24
Ahmuckif nat is that solution, i'll need to fix that23:24
gavinmcso, you have firefox running as a localapp, but it can't see webpages?23:24
gavinmcright. nat is probably what  you need.23:25
Ahmuckah ... for some reason reading the ltsp manual, i did not notice that i needed nat for things to work, i'll review it again, i'm sure i missed it there23:26
gavinmcbasically, if a standard thin client runs firefox, firefox runs on the ltsp server so it can connect to anything the ltsp server can23:27
gavinmcif firefox is running as a localapp, it can connect to anything the thin client itself can connect to.23:27
dgroos1Ahmuck: that info was VERY recently added to the jaunty localapps page at the bottom, I believe.23:27
gavinmcif you have a 2-interface server, your thin clients probably need to connect through the ltsp server and it needs to be told how to "NAT" them23:28
gavinmcdgroos1: by me, two days ago.23:28
Ahmuckk, that make sense23:28
Ahmuckrunning firefox as a localapp will help me greatly23:28
gavinmcif you haven't tried already, the steps here should hopefully get you there https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/23:29
gavinmcfeedback on this page is greatly appreciated23:29
dgroos1gavinmc: I'll give fine-tooth reactions on that page--my first is, in the practical instructions section, step 1, provide directions on how to see if the thin client can reach the internet.  I just tried: "ping google.com" and it worked, I don't think I would have known to do this 2 months ago, however...23:33
gavinmcokay, i xpected people to just open a web browser, but i can state that explicitly.23:33
dgroos1Hmmm... I guess I misunderstood then, I thought one uses this page when firefox on the thin client can't access the web?23:34
dgroos1OH--I got it, 'standard thin client' not as localapp!23:35
dgroos1But... if a person just installed firefox as a localapp, I'm not sure how I could run firefox in standard mode w/out undoing what was done in the localapps setup page... right?23:36
gavinmcI'm not certain how localapps are done at this point, i need to check the manual23:39
dgroos1well, if using Terminal and ping google.com is an acceptable test, that would be easiest...23:41
dgroos1Now, on to step 2 in the practical instructions area...23:42
gavinmcit's not a bad test, but it's not quite precise enough23:42
gavinmcInstead, just use firefox sitting at the server itself.23:43
gavinmcthat's the test we really want, to make sure the server can connect.23:43
dgroos1OK right--that is kind of the same thing I guess.  OK--passed test 1.23:44
dgroos1OK, step 2... I see ip addresses all over the place, on both NIC's with ifconfig, on my router I've got different ip's  is there a command/description that will lead me to know the ip I need?23:44
gavinmcifconfig will show you a stanza for each network interface23:45
gavinmcdo i presume you have two network connections in your server?23:45
dgroos1yes indeed23:46
gavinmcokay, so they'll be called eth0 and eth1 (more than likely).23:46
Ahmucketh0, eth149 here23:46
gavinmcahmuck: that's a little wierd, but okay.23:47
gavinmcwhat's the ip address of your main router?23:47
dgroos1What's the best way to find out?23:48
Ahmuckgavinmc: i've got an nvidia bug.  it recreated one of the interfaces on every boot23:48
gavinmcahmuck: ouch. that's nasty.23:48
gavinmcdgroos1: run route -n on the ltsp server23:48
gavinmcan look at the line that says
gavinmcthe gateway column tells you that.23:49
gavinmctells you the ip address of your router i mean23:50
dgroos1it says:
gavinmcright. so what are the ip addresses of you server?23:50
gavinmcfrom ifconfig23:50
dgroos1192.168.0.254 and
dgroos1eth0 and eth1 respectively23:51
gavinmcokay, the second one is the one on the main network. the first is the address of the card facing your thin clients. can you see how I tell that?23:51
dgroos1yes, thanks for asking!23:52
gavinmcso, in step2, what you're doing is telling the thin clients to connect to the internet through the ltsp server ( to them).23:53
gavinmcMy test is a little ambiguous on reflection. I need to think about it for a minute23:54
gavinmcLTSP used to have more black and white local apps, which were simpler to deal with. You were either running ALL local apps or ALL on the server. This isn't true any more23:57
dgroos1Is there any reason to not run all apps as local apps?23:58
mhall119dgroos1: thin clients are supposed to be thin23:58
dgroos1Thus Nubae's fat solution? :)23:59
* mhall119 wasn't here for most of this conversation23:59
dgroos1So, still, why be surgical about it, why not run all apps?23:59

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