=== mhall1191 is now known as mhall119|eeepc [02:20] hello all [02:22] hello === OldSchool is now known as vorian [03:47] ping [03:48] LaserJock: [05:38] ace_suares: still around? [05:40] hey are u awake ? [05:41] ugg, we need to fix the Launchpad teams too :/ [05:41] yes, I'm awake [05:42] I am nearly off to bed. thx for your comments! I would like you to look at what I did with the teams pages. [05:42] Could you follow me for a while and then after that react ??? [05:42] or have something else on your mind ? [05:42] no, go for it [05:42] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams [05:42] tell me if you;re done reading [05:43] (plz implicitly included in all my text, kk?) [05:43] ace_suares: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument ? [05:44] nope want me to do tha tnow ? [05:44] wow [05:44] still i'd like you to follow for a while, plz? [05:46] LaserJock: ? [05:46] sure [05:46] k [05:46] here comes stage 2 [05:46] just got done reading it [05:46] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams/EdubuntuMembers [05:46] just an example though [05:47] plz look at the raw text too [05:47] now look here: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/StyleGuide [05:48] now look at the raw text of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams [05:48] k [05:48] * LaserJock feels like ace_suares is going to hate him [05:49] no problem i am just trrying out things and learn a lot on the way [05:49] I am just gonna ask you now, do you think this setup is workable? [05:49] It provides for easy adding and changing individual team pages under responsibility of that team [05:50] I think the includes thing is cool, I just don't think Teams is the place to do [05:50] and the main team page (or wherever the teams are listes) is very easy one line include [05:50] why not ? [05:50] I don't think we need a teams page particularly [05:50] the Launchpad team pages have the description [05:50] will you look at this page for a sec? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort [05:50] scroll down to the end [05:51] see it [05:51] thats' the current state of teams pages [05:51] differnet url's, listst that are not complete (like yours)... how to streamline that? [05:52] well the plan is [05:52] to get control of the teams [05:52] and slim them down [05:52] well you should really tell me if there is a plan to all this, buddy :-) [05:52] but thats a good paln [05:52] there's always a plan [05:53] yeah i need to know though [05:53] but nobody every does anything about it [05:53] yes [05:53] i am doing things without a plan [05:53] a lot of things [05:53] quickly [05:53] I just can't keep up with you very well [05:53] so with a plan it would evne be quicker [05:53] he he [05:53] i am just trying things out [05:53] trying out structures [05:53] and then we can look if they are okay or not [05:53] ok, but what about moving the user docs to help.ubuntu.com/community? [05:54] i was not going to build all team pages like this before we could agree [05:54] this is just a sample of what *could* be [05:54] sure [05:54] user docs? if you give me a list of user docs that need to be moved i'll move them, told you before [05:54] i can't get the list [05:55] just search around [05:55] I can search for Edubuntu turns up 246 pages [05:55] yep [05:55] I want to restructure and cleanip the whole wiki [05:55] LTSP and similar are more likely to get something [05:55] yes [05:55] in a form that you /we can all agree on [05:55] but perhaps it's good to start small [05:55] before revolutionizing the whole thing :-) [05:55] i think this is rather small [05:56] I can do 246 pages in a couple of days, really [05:56] if I know where to go with it [05:56] and what is there aginast revolutizoning [05:56] well, it's not easy [05:56] it's good thing [05:56] it's not easy cause there is no plan [05:56] the techniques are easy and interesting [05:56] no, but moving a page can be a lot of work [05:56] the actual doing it is pretty boring but fast [05:56] trying to figure out the web of links [05:56] it's not [05:57] updating everything [05:57] ok [05:57] why [05:57] redirects if necessary, etc. [05:57] all user docs are one page [05:57] or not? [05:57] no [05:57] without links [05:57] show me one [05:57] and you should do a google search [05:57] to see if other people link to the page [05:57] oh well, that's a simple thing [05:57] and interwiki search to see if there are any links and fix if needed [05:58] it's not *huge* [05:58] every page that gets moved gets a redirect in the page like #redirect someurl [05:58] it will do the redirect properly [05:58] but I can't do more than 5-10 pages a day [05:58] search engines will learn [05:58] I can do 100 pages a day if i knew what to do [05:59] why so conservative? [05:59] right now i am only making new pages [05:59] because, 1) it's the wiki team policy [05:59] to build the structure [05:59] 2) it's not nice to break [05:59] 3) this is how we get into a big mess [05:59] why should it break?> and dont see that [05:59] why shoudl we break? I don't see that [05:59] well [06:00] because we should delete pages if we can [06:00] otherwise we just add more and more pages [06:00] no, never, just redirect [06:00] okay really obsolte pages can be deleted [06:00] the goal is deletion where possible [06:00] but being careful about it [06:00] why? what's the problem with redirect? [06:00] because the redirected page shows up just the same [06:01] in searches, etc. [06:01] does it? there's 2 ways of redirect [06:01] with http refresh [06:01] and with #redirect [06:01] I think the latter gives a 303 [06:01] search engines learn from that [06:01] so I want to make a search of Edubuntu *not* give you 250+ page [06:02] wiki redirects show up as regular pages until you click on them [06:02] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=eGw&q=ThinClientHowToNAT&aq=f&oq=&aqi= [06:02] click on the first link [06:03] so how can we delete without breaking ? [06:03] you're gonna have to either break of leave the redirect [06:03] need to go to sleep in 2 min just smoked last sigarette [06:04] hence why we need to be careful with where we put stuff! [06:04] so what are you proposing [06:04] well, that one is fairly heavily linked so we have to leave the redirect [06:04] if there's no outside links we can delete and fix internal wiki links [06:05] if we give each redirect page a CategoryEdubuntuRedirected, then we can search in wiki with '-CategoryEdubuntuRedirect' and only real pages will show up [06:05] well, we need to be careful with Categories too [06:05] or we get too many [06:05] but that is definitely a good thought [06:05] ohhh! thnak you :-) [06:06] maybe we could use a generic category [06:06] I dont want to break either but there is no way you can do a cleanup without hurting something [06:06] like CategoryEdubuntuObsolete or something [06:06] is fine it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same [06:07] And what if outside links refer to pages we think should be deleted? [06:07] It just takes some time [06:07] I can give you a NICE example [06:07] we just set up a redirect [06:08] i totally agree but for the DELETED pages (where the content is really obsolete) we can redirect to a generic error page that leads to the home page or so [06:08] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Photos [06:08] look at the first link [06:08] I edited that lik [06:08] link [06:09] since highvoltage moved HIS photo's [06:09] so the link was not working at all but was still on edubuntu pages [06:09] and the hotos where still there just moved (/v/ somewhere in url [06:10] hmm [06:10] yeahyeah [06:10] I'm trying to think if an example where we really wanted to delete a page (and it was ok to do so) but we wanted to redirect somewhere [06:10] also the 1 2 3 links ion that page dont work but could be my internet error so i left them [06:10] I think we'd just want to delete the page [06:11] there is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval [06:11] all pages that we think should be deleted and not directed should go there [06:11] right [06:12] then one day we can sit an dgo trough th elist and say this goes that stays [06:12] yeah [06:12] if people can do initial triage [06:12] if the list is there, it's easy :-) [06:12] I am afraid I am doing the triage now :-) [06:13] it's a great way to contribute! [06:13] but we could ask 5 people to spend 2 hrs and give them a 50 links [06:13] thats 250 links [06:13] and let them do one thing: say proposed for removal or leave it as it is [06:13] then we'd have our distributed triage [06:14] and then we could ask the 5 people for 2 hrs to do that list and say for each link 'CategoryLaserJokAgrees' or disagrees [06:14] heh [06:14] and then do a good search and it will give us all pages to be deleted [06:15] did you notice how many people wnated to contribute since last week ? [06:15] 3 or so [06:15] yep [06:15] i think we can harnass their enthousiams by giving them plain task [06:15] like a list of links and the taks to 'add categoryxyz to those pages' [06:16] or 'copy those pages to /bla/bli/pagename' [06:16] poeple love to be told what to do [06:16] it's takes off a part of the responsibility [06:16] in the end we'll have our cleand up wiki [06:17] and some styleguides as to new pages (making templates) [06:17] and then the janitor job is simple [06:17] to keep it focussed for like one or two releases [06:17] thats what i think could happen [06:17] so here's sort of how would like to see this go down [06:17] * ace_suares is all ears [06:18] you and hopefully some other people who're willing to help [06:18] go through the wiki page and flag for deletion/moving/updating [06:19] so that they show up on the wiki cleanup page [06:19] then one or all of the core Edubuntu people can go through and sign off [06:20] yes [06:20] how does that sound? [06:20] very good! [06:20] so let's do that first before messing with the structure for now [06:20] after we've cleaned cruft [06:20] well [06:20] we can look at what's left and figure out the best structure [06:21] how would 'we' know how to 'move' a page if there is no new structure? [06:21] deleting is fine [06:21] because moving should be for user documentation [06:21] updating is difficult since... who will update? [06:21] if it's an easy update you guys can do it [06:21] if it's not just flag it [06:21] I think if you are doing it like that you are missing an opportunity to make it a good wiki [06:22] how so? [06:22] but it sure will help [06:22] becaue if you know the ne3w structure (and it's not that difficult) then you can flag the moves correctly [06:22] and when you all sign off on the move [06:22] then it's simple for 'us' to do it [06:22] well, let's worry about that as a secondary thing [06:23] the idea is as a first step to clean cruft [06:23] and *then* make the structure as we want [06:23] well if you want... but look again at the team page ehh. wait.. [06:23] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort [06:23] at he bottom [06:23] that is a search on 'edubuntu team' [06:24] How should i flag EdubuntuItalianTeam? [06:24] or testingTeam [06:24] or... more weird NicaraguanTeam? [06:24] you need to think of an algoritm [06:24] that we lowly contributors can work with [06:25] well, unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy [06:25] it's unfortunately that you think that or unfortunately that it is not so easy ??? [06:25] if a page looks questionable you can just flag it [06:26] flag it how?.. in this paticular case? [06:27] you can just put it on the wiki cleanup page with a note [06:27] ah now you complicate things! [06:27] for me to just add a category to a wiki page is simple [06:27] yes, but it's not that easy in some cases [06:27] for me to make a list of pages with notes, very time consuming and prone to errors [06:28] let the category mechanism do the work for us [06:28] were a category works, fine [06:28] but in some cases I think it's good to have notes [06:28] 'flag' means add a category and you can make as many as you want [06:28] no, don't make as many as you want [06:28] they will be empty afterwards, after the clean up [06:28] it just make a big mess [06:28] no... [06:28] they need to make sense [06:29] they need to make sense for the clean up yes [06:29] like a local variable after the clean up they will all be gone [06:29] a category only exsits if there is pages that have that category [06:29] right, I'm just saying sometimes a simple category flag is insufficient and doesn't allow for discussion [06:30] well you are maybe right but try to imagine making a list of 100 pages by copying the URL and then add a note [06:30] what order the need to be in [06:30] I'm just saying for the non-obvious ones [06:30] like probably < 10 [06:30] if you do something with that page you need to do bookkeeping on that order page [06:31] well you can make a category 'WithNotes' and in that page make the note,s that would work [06:31] well, I don't care so much [06:32] but still. how should i flag italianteam? looking for guidance here to complete a task... seriously... [06:32] I just find categories to get messy if overly done so I try to avoid doing too many [06:32] yeah in the wiki i agree [06:32] we could also discuss what categories would end up in the cleaned up wiki [06:32] i think 4-6 would be really enough [06:32] EdubuntuItalianTeam is a redirect [06:32] so I'm not sure we do anything with it [06:33] well at least make it catergory is redirect to make local search in moinmoin better [06:34] I guess so [06:34] or maybe not] [06:34] but at leas tit needs a guid line [06:34] it's like writing softwar efor humans [06:34] do - searches work on the wiki? [06:34] you need specs [06:34] and rules/code [06:34] so the HPU (Human Processor Units) know what to do [06:35] sure [06:35] try 'edubuntu -cookbook - handbook' [06:36] and try just 'edubuntu' [06:36] ok cool [06:36] so yeah, we should add a redirect category to redirects [06:36] that would be a great triage task [06:36] you can even embed search in a page < yes it would very clear and consice [06:38] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval check out the raw text on that one [06:38] I don't see an existing CategoryRedirect [06:39] perhaps we should email the doc team and see if that could be an Ubuntu-wide thing [06:39] No but it should be CategoryEdubuntuRedirect as not to mess with the others [06:39] I don't know why it shouldn't be Ubuntu-wide [06:39] ha ha now you make it larger then needed [06:39] but its' possible like CategorySpec does ALL specs [06:40] I added CategoryEdubuntuSpec so they can be seperated [06:40] there's no real reason to distinguish between Ubuntu redirects and Edubuntu redirects [06:40] yeah, that's all historic [06:40] original Edubuntu was just a part of Ubuntu really and there weren't that many specs [06:41] now it make a lot more sense to have a separate category [06:41] whatever you say, but if you decide to lets' say vet all Edubuntu redirect and delete a couple of them after vetting [06:41] then you will be in toruble [06:41] how so? [06:41] beacuse how wil you make a list of things to vet? [06:42] well, I'd imagine Edubuntu CategoryRedirect [06:42] yeah that might work [06:44] can you make a small mail for the devel outlining this discussion as a start to defining the triage task ? [06:44] just the general outlines and ideas where we are going? [06:44] you did well on the last one [06:44] it's important that all know about it and not just those listening in here (whihc seems to be none) [06:45] i really need to go now i very much appreciate the time you are taking to talk this trough [06:46] k [06:46] will do [06:46] nighty [06:46] and thanks [14:31] morning all. not much time today for Edubuntu. [14:48] who has tested an LTSP FAT client setup yet? [15:17] *sigh* [15:18] sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again? [15:41] highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki [15:42] mhall119: indeed [18:58] ace_suares: you sure do create a lot of work :-) [19:07] edubuntu is funny [19:08] "haha" funny? or "OMG this is horrible" funny? [19:12] community driven, a throwaway child of ubuntu, dying in the clutches of administrative overhead all because it's dependence of ubuntu's resources. [19:13] it has nothing to do with ubuntu resources [19:13] ubuntu's resources are quite good [19:13] any reason then we need to use launchpad? [19:14] Launchpad is an *excellent* tool [19:14] and I don't think there's a lot of administrative overhead [19:15] what seems to be lacking is people willing/able to put significant effort into it [19:15] why the impass of getting things done in edubuntu? every time someone comes along willing to make a push to get edubuntu moving along, someone throws a wet rag on them [19:15] I don't think people are trying to throw a wet rag [19:15] they're maybe trying to guide the effort [19:16] iirc, this morning i saw another unpleasent reference to someone willing to move edubuntu along. real change comes from a small group of people willing to do someething, not large groups [19:16] large groups provide stablity for research and large corporations, but do little inovation [19:16] I don't understand what you mean [19:16] what large group are you referring to? [19:16] look at what has been done to edubuntu. it's lost anybody connected with paid developemnt [19:17] it did lose it's paid development [19:17] now that it's fallen to volunteer individuals, a community effort, and getting the go ahead within the current structer, were still getting dampered. shall i start listing the people that keep leaving, because they keep trying to get things done [19:18] yes, please do [19:18] LJ is there anybody that is doing full time dev on edubuntu? [19:18] no [19:18] from conical [19:18] no, nobody is full time period [19:18] well [19:18] stgraber would be the closest on LTSP [19:18] since his day job is LTSP [19:19] stgraber: day job is ltsp? with conical? [19:19] no [19:19] Revolution Linux [19:19] it's a commercial Ubuntu offshoot I believe [19:19] i get the impression that people are waiting in the corners to see if it succeeds. if it does, claim it, if it doesn't let it die [19:20] well, it won't ever succeed if everybody waits in the corners :( [19:20] * Ahmuck wonders why it's called "revolution" linux ... he he [19:20] I can scream until I'm blue in the face saying what needs to be done [19:21] but if nobody is willing to get into action on things then I'm not sure how we can move forward [19:21] and if people are willing to listen to those of us who have experience doing this stuff I'm not sure what exactly to do [19:21] *aren't willing [19:29] back to the admin overhead, i've watched groups come togather, and they usually "settle" out. guidence is good, but over guidence can be sour. it really makes it sour when members of the group start calling names like "crazies" [19:30] someone's stepped up to offer help, the last thing you edubuntu needs is calling volunteers names [19:36] who called people names? [19:40] looks like my connection got reset, don't know what i missed [19:41] hi guys [19:41] i am the 'crazy i suppose [19:42] Ahmuck: who called people crazies? [19:42] highvoltage: *sigh* [19:42] highvoltage: sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again? [19:42] ubottu [n=supybot@ubuntu/bot/ubottu] entered the room. [19:42] mhall119: highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki [19:42] highvoltage: mhall119: indeed [19:42] who what? [19:43] this is what Ahmuck is talking about. I was not very happy with it but chose to let it pass. [19:43] lol, sorry [19:43] Thanks mhall119 for defending [19:43] I do think it's a very bad attitude towards newcomers, though ;-) [19:44] I wouldn't tall that defending, because I didn't think you were being attacked, just misunderstood [19:45] they probably get a lot of people who jump in, give a lot of unsolicited advice, argue with anyone who doesn't agree, and then leave without doing a bit or work [19:45] I wanted to clarify that you were indeed doing work, not just spouting off [19:45] we do get a *lot* of that [19:46] or people who do all that and then screw around with stuff for a week or two and then leave everything in a mess [19:46] I can understand that very well. I think when you would use launchpad better - especially the mentoring which I discoverd just today - then it would be easier to keep control and seperate the crazies from the workers ! [19:46] right [19:47] we've never used the mentoring [19:47] Ubuntu doesn't really use it [19:47] to be honest - i hadn't planned on workin more then a week full time on it - but the lack of 'low hanging fruit' go me into it deeper. [19:47] it's mostly considered a failed Launchpad feature [19:47] really? oh that's too bad. [19:47] mentoring doesn't work without a mentor [19:47] right [19:47] I think it should have been a great social structure [19:47] and for Launchpad [19:47] of course you need mentors :-) [19:47] however google seems to pull it off, perhaps because of the "cash" [19:48] it takes as much time, if not more, to do the whole mentoring thing as to just fix the darn thing [19:48] well, I didn't say *mentoring* doesn't work [19:48] I said Launchpad's mentoring feature [19:48] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/401474 [19:48] Ubuntu does quite a bit of mentoring [19:49] Ahmuck: I think Edubuntu developers are just a bit frustrated, perhaps that comes off as a "wet blanket" but hopefully if people start stepping up that frustration will be alleviated [19:50] I think your mail form last night LJ, about how we want to do the redirects and the proposal for removal, is an excellent case for mentoring. Define a couple of tasks (in a spec? in bugs?) and then try to find people trough the mailng list to do those tasks... what do you think? Rather without the LP mentoring feature? [19:50] yes [19:50] LaserJock: people will not step up if they are met with a certain attitude [19:50]