[02:20] <Ahmuck> hello all
[02:22] <mhall119|eeepc> hello
[03:47] <ace_suares> ping
[03:48] <ace_suares> LaserJock:
[05:38] <LaserJock> ace_suares: still around?
[05:40] <ace_suares> hey are u awake ?
[05:41] <LaserJock> ugg, we need to fix the Launchpad teams too :/
[05:41] <LaserJock> yes, I'm awake
[05:42] <ace_suares> I am nearly off to bed. thx for your comments! I would like you to look at what I did with the teams pages.
[05:42] <ace_suares> Could you follow me for a while and then after that react ???
[05:42] <ace_suares> or have something else on your mind ?
[05:42] <LaserJock> no, go for it
[05:42] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
[05:42] <ace_suares> tell me if you;re done reading
[05:43] <ace_suares> (plz implicitly included in all my text, kk?)
[05:43] <LaserJock> ace_suares: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument ?
[05:44] <ace_suares> nope want me to do tha tnow ?
[05:44] <ace_suares> wow
[05:44] <ace_suares> still i'd like you to follow for a while, plz?
[05:46] <ace_suares> LaserJock: ?
[05:46] <LaserJock> sure
[05:46] <ace_suares> k
[05:46] <ace_suares> here comes stage 2
[05:46] <LaserJock> just got done reading it
[05:46] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams/EdubuntuMembers
[05:46] <ace_suares> just an example though
[05:47] <ace_suares> plz look at the raw text too
[05:47] <ace_suares> now look here: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/StyleGuide
[05:48] <ace_suares> now look at the raw text of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
[05:48] <LaserJock> k
[05:48]  * LaserJock feels like ace_suares is going to hate him
[05:49] <ace_suares> no problem i am just trrying out things and learn a lot on the way
[05:49] <ace_suares> I am just gonna ask you now, do you think this setup is workable?
[05:49] <ace_suares> It provides for easy adding and changing individual team pages under responsibility of that team
[05:50] <LaserJock> I think the includes thing is cool, I just don't think Teams is the place to do
[05:50] <ace_suares> and the main team page (or wherever the teams are listes) is very easy one line include
[05:50] <ace_suares> why not ?
[05:50] <LaserJock> I don't think we need a teams page particularly
[05:50] <LaserJock> the Launchpad team pages have the description
[05:50] <ace_suares> will you look at this page for a sec? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
[05:50] <ace_suares> scroll down to the end
[05:51] <LaserJock> see it
[05:51] <ace_suares> thats' the current state of teams pages
[05:51] <ace_suares> differnet url's, listst that are not complete (like yours)... how to streamline that?
[05:52] <LaserJock> well the plan is
[05:52] <LaserJock> to get control of the teams
[05:52] <LaserJock> and slim them down
[05:52] <ace_suares> well you should really tell me if there is a plan to all this, buddy :-)
[05:52] <ace_suares> but thats a good paln
[05:52] <LaserJock> there's always a plan
[05:53] <ace_suares> yeah i need to know though
[05:53] <LaserJock> but nobody every does anything about it
[05:53] <LaserJock> yes
[05:53] <ace_suares> i am doing things without a plan
[05:53] <ace_suares> a lot of things
[05:53] <ace_suares> quickly
[05:53] <LaserJock> I just can't keep up with you very well
[05:53] <ace_suares> so with a plan it would evne be quicker
[05:53] <ace_suares> he he
[05:53] <ace_suares> i am just trying things out
[05:53] <ace_suares> trying out structures
[05:53] <ace_suares> and then we can look if they are okay or not
[05:53] <LaserJock> ok, but what about moving the user docs to help.ubuntu.com/community?
[05:54] <ace_suares> i was not going to build all team pages like this before we could agree
[05:54] <ace_suares> this is just a sample of what *could* be
[05:54] <LaserJock> sure
[05:54] <ace_suares> user docs? if you give me a list of user docs that need to be moved i'll move them, told you before
[05:54] <ace_suares> i can't get the list
[05:55] <LaserJock> just search around
[05:55] <ace_suares> I can search for Edubuntu turns up 246 pages
[05:55] <LaserJock> yep
[05:55] <ace_suares> I want to restructure and cleanip the whole wiki
[05:55] <LaserJock> LTSP and similar are more likely to get something
[05:55] <LaserJock> yes
[05:55] <ace_suares> in a form that you /we can all agree on
[05:55] <LaserJock> but perhaps it's good to start small
[05:55] <LaserJock> before revolutionizing the whole thing :-)
[05:55] <ace_suares> i think this is rather small
[05:56] <ace_suares> I can do 246 pages in a couple of days, really
[05:56] <ace_suares> if I know where to go with it
[05:56] <ace_suares> and what is there aginast revolutizoning
[05:56] <LaserJock> well, it's not easy
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's good thing
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's not easy cause there is no plan
[05:56] <ace_suares> the techniques are easy and interesting
[05:56] <LaserJock> no, but moving a page can be a lot of work
[05:56] <ace_suares> the actual doing it is pretty boring but fast
[05:56] <LaserJock> trying to figure out the web of links
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's not
[05:57] <LaserJock> updating everything
[05:57] <ace_suares> ok
[05:57] <ace_suares> why
[05:57] <LaserJock> redirects if necessary, etc.
[05:57] <ace_suares> all user docs are one page
[05:57] <ace_suares> or not?
[05:57] <LaserJock> no
[05:57] <ace_suares> without links
[05:57] <ace_suares> show me one
[05:57] <LaserJock> and you should do a google search
[05:57] <LaserJock> to see if other people link to the page
[05:57] <ace_suares> oh well, that's a simple thing
[05:57] <LaserJock> and interwiki search to see if there are any links and fix if needed
[05:58] <LaserJock> it's not *huge*
[05:58] <ace_suares> every page that gets moved gets a redirect in the page like #redirect someurl
[05:58] <ace_suares> it will do the redirect properly
[05:58] <LaserJock> but I can't do more than 5-10 pages a day
[05:58] <ace_suares> search engines will learn
[05:58] <ace_suares> I can do 100 pages a day if i knew what to do
[05:59] <ace_suares> why so conservative?
[05:59] <ace_suares> right now i am only making new pages
[05:59] <LaserJock> because, 1) it's the wiki team policy
[05:59] <ace_suares> to build the structure
[05:59] <LaserJock> 2) it's not nice to break
[05:59] <LaserJock> 3) this is how we get into a big mess
[05:59] <ace_suares> why should it break?> and dont see that
[05:59] <ace_suares> why shoudl we break? I don't see that
[05:59] <LaserJock> well
[06:00] <LaserJock> because we should delete pages if we can
[06:00] <LaserJock> otherwise we just add more and more pages
[06:00] <ace_suares> no, never, just redirect
[06:00] <ace_suares> okay really obsolte pages can be deleted
[06:00] <LaserJock> the goal is deletion where possible
[06:00] <LaserJock> but being careful about it
[06:00] <ace_suares> why? what's the problem with redirect?
[06:00] <LaserJock> because the redirected page shows up just the same
[06:01] <LaserJock> in searches, etc.
[06:01] <ace_suares> does it? there's 2 ways of redirect
[06:01] <ace_suares> with http refresh
[06:01] <ace_suares> and with #redirect
[06:01] <ace_suares>  I think the latter gives a 303
[06:01] <ace_suares> search engines learn from that
[06:01] <LaserJock> so I want to make a search of Edubuntu *not* give you 250+ page
[06:02] <LaserJock> wiki redirects show up as regular pages until you click on them
[06:02] <ace_suares> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=eGw&q=ThinClientHowToNAT&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
[06:02] <ace_suares> click on the first link
[06:03] <ace_suares> so how can we delete without breaking ?
[06:03] <LaserJock> you're gonna have to either break of leave the redirect
[06:03] <ace_suares> need to go to sleep in 2 min just smoked last sigarette
[06:04] <LaserJock> hence why we need to be careful with where we put stuff!
[06:04] <ace_suares> so what are you proposing
[06:04] <LaserJock> well, that one is fairly heavily linked so we have to leave the redirect
[06:04] <LaserJock> if there's no outside links we can delete and fix internal wiki links
[06:05] <ace_suares> if we give each redirect page a CategoryEdubuntuRedirected, then we can search in wiki with '-CategoryEdubuntuRedirect' and only real pages will show up
[06:05] <LaserJock> well, we need to be careful with Categories too
[06:05] <LaserJock> or we get too many
[06:05] <LaserJock> but that is definitely a good thought
[06:05] <ace_suares> ohhh! thnak you :-)
[06:06] <LaserJock> maybe we could use a generic category
[06:06] <ace_suares> I dont want to break either but there is no way you can do a cleanup without hurting something
[06:06] <LaserJock> like CategoryEdubuntuObsolete or something
[06:06] <ace_suares> is fine it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same
[06:07] <ace_suares> And what if outside links refer to pages we think should be deleted?
[06:07] <ace_suares> It just takes some time
[06:07] <ace_suares> I can give you a NICE example
[06:07] <LaserJock> we just set up a redirect
[06:08] <ace_suares> i totally agree but for the DELETED pages (where the content is really obsolete) we can redirect to a generic error page that leads to the home page or so
[06:08] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Photos
[06:08] <ace_suares> look at the first link
[06:08] <ace_suares> I edited that lik
[06:08] <ace_suares> link
[06:09] <ace_suares> since highvoltage moved HIS photo's
[06:09] <ace_suares> so the link was not working at all but was still on edubuntu pages
[06:09] <ace_suares> and the hotos where still there just moved (/v/ somewhere in url
[06:10] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:10] <ace_suares> yeahyeah
[06:10] <LaserJock> I'm trying to think if an example where we really wanted to delete a page (and it was ok to do so) but we wanted to redirect somewhere
[06:10] <ace_suares> also the 1 2 3 links ion that page dont work but could be my internet error so i left them
[06:10] <LaserJock> I think we'd just want to delete the page
[06:11] <ace_suares> there is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval
[06:11] <ace_suares> all pages that we think should be deleted and not directed should go there
[06:11] <LaserJock> right
[06:12] <ace_suares> then one day we can sit an dgo trough th elist and say this goes that stays
[06:12] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:12] <LaserJock> if people can do initial triage
[06:12] <ace_suares> if the list is there, it's easy :-)
[06:12] <ace_suares> I am afraid I am doing the triage now :-)
[06:13] <LaserJock> it's a great way to contribute!
[06:13] <ace_suares> but we could ask 5 people to spend 2 hrs and give them a 50 links
[06:13] <ace_suares> thats 250 links
[06:13] <ace_suares> and let them do one thing: say proposed for removal or leave it as it is
[06:13] <ace_suares> then we'd have our distributed triage
[06:14] <ace_suares> and then we could ask the 5 people for 2 hrs to do that list and say for each link 'CategoryLaserJokAgrees' or disagrees
[06:14] <LaserJock> heh
[06:14] <ace_suares> and then do a good search and it will give us all pages to be deleted
[06:15] <ace_suares> did you notice how many people wnated to contribute since last week ?
[06:15] <ace_suares> 3 or so
[06:15] <LaserJock> yep
[06:15] <ace_suares> i think we can harnass their enthousiams by giving them plain task
[06:15] <ace_suares> like a list of links and the taks to 'add categoryxyz to those pages'
[06:16] <ace_suares> or 'copy those pages to /bla/bli/pagename'
[06:16] <ace_suares> poeple love to be told what to do
[06:16] <ace_suares> it's takes off a part of the responsibility
[06:16] <ace_suares> in the end we'll have our cleand up wiki
[06:17] <ace_suares> and some styleguides as to new pages (making templates)
[06:17] <ace_suares> and then the janitor job is simple
[06:17] <ace_suares> to keep it focussed for like one or two releases
[06:17] <ace_suares> thats what i think could happen
[06:17] <LaserJock> so here's sort of how would like to see this go down
[06:17]  * ace_suares is all ears
[06:18] <LaserJock> you and hopefully some other people who're willing to help
[06:18] <LaserJock> go through the wiki page and flag for deletion/moving/updating
[06:19] <LaserJock> so that they show up on the wiki cleanup page
[06:19] <LaserJock> then one or all of the core Edubuntu people can go through and sign off
[06:20] <ace_suares> yes
[06:20] <LaserJock> how does that sound?
[06:20] <ace_suares> very good!
[06:20] <LaserJock> so let's do that first before messing with the structure for now
[06:20] <LaserJock> after we've cleaned cruft
[06:20] <ace_suares> well
[06:20] <LaserJock> we can look at what's left and figure out the best structure
[06:21] <ace_suares> how would 'we' know how to 'move' a page if there is no new structure?
[06:21] <ace_suares> deleting is fine
[06:21] <LaserJock> because moving should be for user documentation
[06:21] <ace_suares> updating is difficult since... who will update?
[06:21] <LaserJock> if it's an easy update you guys can do it
[06:21] <LaserJock> if it's not just flag it
[06:21] <ace_suares> I think if you are doing it like that you are missing an opportunity to make it a good wiki
[06:22] <LaserJock> how so?
[06:22] <ace_suares> but it sure will help
[06:22] <ace_suares> becaue if you know the ne3w structure (and it's not that difficult) then you can flag the moves correctly
[06:22] <ace_suares> and when you all sign off on the move
[06:22] <ace_suares> then it's simple for 'us' to do it
[06:22] <LaserJock> well, let's worry about that as a secondary thing
[06:23] <LaserJock> the idea is as a first step to clean cruft
[06:23] <LaserJock> and *then* make the structure as we want
[06:23] <ace_suares> well if you want... but look again at the team page ehh. wait..
[06:23] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
[06:23] <ace_suares> at he bottom
[06:23] <ace_suares> that is a search on 'edubuntu team'
[06:24] <ace_suares> How should i flag EdubuntuItalianTeam?
[06:24] <ace_suares> or testingTeam
[06:24] <ace_suares> or... more weird NicaraguanTeam?
[06:24] <ace_suares> you need to think of an algoritm
[06:24] <ace_suares> that we lowly contributors can work with
[06:25] <LaserJock> well, unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy
[06:25] <ace_suares> it's unfortunately that you think that or unfortunately that it is not so easy ???
[06:25] <LaserJock> if a page looks questionable you can just flag it
[06:26] <ace_suares> flag it how?.. in this paticular case?
[06:27] <LaserJock> you can just put it on the wiki cleanup page with a note
[06:27] <ace_suares> ah now you complicate things!
[06:27] <ace_suares> for me to just add a category to a wiki page is simple
[06:27] <LaserJock> yes, but it's not that easy in some cases
[06:27] <ace_suares> for me to make a list of pages with notes, very time consuming and prone to errors
[06:28] <ace_suares> let the category mechanism do the work for us
[06:28] <LaserJock> were a category works, fine
[06:28] <LaserJock> but in some cases I think it's good to have notes
[06:28] <ace_suares> 'flag' means add a category and you can make as many as you want
[06:28] <LaserJock> no, don't make as many as you want
[06:28] <ace_suares> they will be empty afterwards, after the clean up
[06:28] <LaserJock> it just make a big mess
[06:28] <ace_suares> no...
[06:28] <LaserJock> they need to make sense
[06:29] <ace_suares> they need to make sense for the clean up yes
[06:29] <ace_suares> like a local variable after the clean up they will all be gone
[06:29] <ace_suares> a category only exsits if there is pages that have that category
[06:29] <LaserJock> right, I'm just saying sometimes a simple category flag is insufficient and doesn't allow for discussion
[06:30] <ace_suares> well you are maybe right but try to imagine making a list of 100 pages by copying the URL and then add a note
[06:30] <ace_suares> what order the need to be in
[06:30] <LaserJock> I'm just saying for the non-obvious ones
[06:30] <LaserJock> like probably < 10
[06:30] <ace_suares> if you do something with that page you need  to do bookkeeping on that order page
[06:31] <ace_suares> well you can make a category 'WithNotes' and in that page make the note,s that would work
[06:31] <LaserJock> well, I don't care so much
[06:32] <ace_suares> but still. how should i flag italianteam? looking for guidance here to complete a task... seriously...
[06:32] <LaserJock> I just find categories to get messy if overly done so I try to avoid doing too many
[06:32] <ace_suares> yeah in the wiki i agree
[06:32] <ace_suares> we could also discuss what categories would end up in the cleaned up wiki
[06:32] <ace_suares> i think 4-6 would be really enough
[06:32] <LaserJock> EdubuntuItalianTeam is a redirect
[06:32] <LaserJock> so I'm not sure we do anything with it
[06:33] <ace_suares> well at least make it catergory is redirect to make local search in moinmoin better
[06:34] <LaserJock> I guess so
[06:34] <ace_suares> or maybe not]
[06:34] <ace_suares> but at leas tit needs a guid line
[06:34] <ace_suares> it's like writing softwar efor humans
[06:34] <LaserJock> do - searches work on the wiki?
[06:34] <ace_suares> you need specs
[06:34] <ace_suares> and rules/code
[06:34] <ace_suares> so the HPU (Human Processor Units) know what to do
[06:35] <ace_suares> sure
[06:35] <ace_suares> try 'edubuntu -cookbook - handbook'
[06:36] <ace_suares> and try just 'edubuntu'
[06:36] <LaserJock> ok cool
[06:36] <LaserJock> so yeah, we should add a redirect category to redirects
[06:36] <LaserJock> that would be a great triage task
[06:36] <ace_suares> you can even embed search in a page <<FullSearchCached('edubuntu -cookbook') and that page will always show all those that match
[06:37] <ace_suares> yes it would very clear and consice
[06:38] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval check out the raw text on that one
[06:38] <LaserJock> I don't see an existing CategoryRedirect
[06:39] <LaserJock> perhaps we should email the doc team and see if that could be an Ubuntu-wide thing
[06:39] <ace_suares> No but it should be CategoryEdubuntuRedirect as not to mess with the others
[06:39] <LaserJock> I don't know why it shouldn't be Ubuntu-wide
[06:39] <ace_suares> ha ha now you make it larger then needed
[06:39] <ace_suares> but its' possible like CategorySpec does ALL specs
[06:40] <ace_suares> I added CategoryEdubuntuSpec so they can be seperated
[06:40] <LaserJock> there's no real reason to distinguish between Ubuntu redirects and Edubuntu redirects
[06:40] <LaserJock> yeah, that's all historic
[06:40] <LaserJock> original Edubuntu was just a part of Ubuntu really and there weren't that many specs
[06:41] <LaserJock> now it make a lot more sense to have a separate category
[06:41] <ace_suares> whatever you say, but if you decide to lets' say vet all Edubuntu redirect and delete a couple of them after vetting
[06:41] <ace_suares> then you will be in toruble
[06:41] <LaserJock> how so?
[06:41] <ace_suares> beacuse how wil you make a list of things to vet?
[06:42] <LaserJock> well, I'd imagine Edubuntu CategoryRedirect
[06:42] <ace_suares> yeah that might work
[06:44] <ace_suares> can you make a small mail for the devel outlining this discussion as a start to defining the triage task ?
[06:44] <ace_suares> just the general outlines and ideas where we are going?
[06:44] <ace_suares> you did well on the last one
[06:44] <ace_suares> it's important that all know about it and not just those listening in here (whihc seems to be none)
[06:45] <ace_suares> i really need to go now i very much appreciate the time you are taking to talk this trough
[06:46] <LaserJock> k
[06:46] <LaserJock> will do
[06:46] <ace_suares> nighty
[06:46] <LaserJock> and thanks
[14:31] <ace_suares> morning all. not much time today for Edubuntu.
[14:48] <humbolt> who has tested an LTSP FAT client setup yet?
[15:17] <highvoltage> *sigh*
[15:18] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
[15:41] <mhall119> highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
[15:42] <highvoltage> mhall119: indeed
[18:58] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you sure do create a lot of work :-)
[19:07] <Ahmuck> edubuntu is funny
[19:08] <LaserJock> "haha" funny? or "OMG this is horrible" funny?
[19:12] <Ahmuck> community driven, a throwaway child of ubuntu, dying in the clutches of administrative overhead all because it's dependence of ubuntu's resources.
[19:13] <LaserJock> it has nothing to do with ubuntu resources
[19:13] <LaserJock> ubuntu's resources are quite good
[19:13] <Ahmuck> any reason then we need to use launchpad?
[19:14] <LaserJock> Launchpad is an *excellent* tool
[19:14] <LaserJock> and I don't think there's a lot of administrative overhead
[19:15] <LaserJock> what seems to be lacking is people willing/able to put significant effort into it
[19:15] <Ahmuck> why the impass of getting things done in edubuntu?  every time someone comes along willing to make a push to get edubuntu moving along, someone throws a wet rag on them
[19:15] <LaserJock> I don't think people are trying to throw a wet rag
[19:15] <LaserJock> they're maybe trying to guide the effort
[19:16] <Ahmuck> iirc, this morning i saw another unpleasent reference to someone willing to move edubuntu along.  real change comes from a small group of people willing to do someething, not large groups
[19:16] <Ahmuck> large groups provide stablity for research and large corporations, but do little inovation
[19:16] <LaserJock> I don't understand what you mean
[19:16] <LaserJock> what large group are you referring to?
[19:16] <Ahmuck> look at what has been done to edubuntu.  it's lost anybody connected with paid developemnt
[19:17] <LaserJock> it did lose it's paid development
[19:17] <Ahmuck> now that it's fallen to volunteer individuals, a community effort, and getting the go ahead within the current structer, were still getting dampered.  shall i start listing the people that keep leaving, because they keep trying to get things done
[19:18] <LaserJock> yes, please do
[19:18] <Ahmuck> LJ is there anybody that is doing full time dev on edubuntu?
[19:18] <LaserJock> no
[19:18] <Ahmuck> from conical
[19:18] <LaserJock> no, nobody is full time period
[19:18] <LaserJock> well
[19:18] <LaserJock> stgraber would be the closest on LTSP
[19:18] <LaserJock> since his day job is LTSP
[19:19] <Ahmuck> stgraber: day job is ltsp?  with conical?
[19:19] <LaserJock> no
[19:19] <LaserJock> Revolution Linux
[19:19] <LaserJock> it's a commercial Ubuntu offshoot I believe
[19:19] <Ahmuck> i get the impression that people are waiting in the corners to see if it succeeds.  if it does, claim it, if it doesn't let it die
[19:20] <LaserJock> well, it won't ever succeed if everybody waits in the corners :(
[19:20]  * Ahmuck wonders why it's called "revolution" linux ... he he
[19:20] <LaserJock> I can scream until I'm blue in the face saying what needs to be done
[19:21] <LaserJock> but if nobody is willing to get into action on things then I'm not sure how we can move forward
[19:21] <LaserJock> and if people are willing to listen to those of us who have experience doing this stuff I'm not sure what exactly to do
[19:21] <LaserJock> *aren't willing
[19:29] <Ahmuck> back to the admin overhead, i've watched groups come togather, and they usually "settle" out.  guidence is good, but over guidence can be sour.  it really makes it sour when members of the group start calling names like "crazies"
[19:30] <Ahmuck> someone's stepped up to offer help, the last thing you edubuntu needs is calling volunteers names
[19:36] <LaserJock> who called people names?
[19:40] <Ahmuck> looks like my connection got reset, don't know what i missed
[19:41] <ace_suares> hi guys
[19:41] <ace_suares> i am the 'crazy i suppose
[19:42] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: who called people crazies?
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: *sigh*
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
[19:42] <ace_suares> ubottu [n=supybot@ubuntu/bot/ubottu] entered the room.
[19:42] <ace_suares> mhall119: highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: mhall119: indeed
[19:42] <mhall119> who what?
[19:43] <ace_suares> this is what Ahmuck is talking about. I was not very happy with it but chose to let it pass.
[19:43] <Ahmuck> lol, sorry
[19:43] <ace_suares> Thanks mhall119 for defending
[19:43] <ace_suares> I do think it's a very bad attitude towards newcomers, though ;-)
[19:44] <mhall119> I wouldn't tall that defending, because I didn't think you were being attacked, just misunderstood
[19:45] <mhall119> they probably get a lot of people who jump in, give a lot of unsolicited advice, argue with anyone who doesn't agree, and then leave without doing a bit or work
[19:45] <mhall119> I wanted to clarify that you were indeed doing work, not just spouting off
[19:45] <LaserJock> we do get a *lot* of that
[19:46] <LaserJock> or people who do all that and then screw around with stuff for a week or two and then leave everything in a mess
[19:46] <ace_suares> I can understand that very well. I think when you would use launchpad better - especially the mentoring which I discoverd just today - then it would be easier to keep control and seperate the crazies from the workers !
[19:46] <LaserJock> right
[19:47] <LaserJock> we've never used the mentoring
[19:47] <LaserJock> Ubuntu doesn't really use it
[19:47] <ace_suares> to be honest - i hadn't planned on workin more then a week full time on it - but the lack of 'low hanging fruit' go me into it deeper.
[19:47] <LaserJock> it's mostly considered a failed Launchpad feature
[19:47] <ace_suares> really? oh that's too bad.
[19:47] <Ahmuck> mentoring doesn't work without a mentor
[19:47] <LaserJock> right
[19:47] <ace_suares> I think it should have been a great social structure
[19:47] <LaserJock> and for Launchpad
[19:47] <ace_suares> of course you need mentors :-)
[19:47] <Ahmuck> however google seems to pull it off, perhaps because of the "cash"
[19:48] <LaserJock> it takes as much time, if not more, to do the whole mentoring thing as to just fix the darn thing
[19:48] <LaserJock> well, I didn't say *mentoring* doesn't work
[19:48] <LaserJock> I said Launchpad's mentoring feature
[19:48] <ace_suares> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/401474
[19:48] <LaserJock> Ubuntu does quite a bit of mentoring
[19:49] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: I think Edubuntu developers are just a bit frustrated, perhaps that comes off as a "wet blanket" but hopefully if people start stepping up that frustration will be alleviated
[19:50] <ace_suares> I think your mail form last night LJ, about how we want to do the redirects and the proposal for removal, is an excellent case for mentoring. Define a couple of tasks (in a spec? in bugs?) and then try to find people trough the mailng list to do those tasks... what do you think? Rather without the LP mentoring feature?
[19:50] <LaserJock> yes
[19:50] <ace_suares> LaserJock: people will not step up if they are met with a certain attitude
[19:50] <LaserJock> I suppose
[19:51] <LaserJock> but since they didn't step up any way I guess some of us are just a bit jaded
[19:51] <ace_suares> what.. nobody ever steppe dup ?
[19:51] <ace_suares> stepped up???
[19:51] <LaserJock> I asked for help for 2 years and got next to nothing
[19:51] <LaserJock> I put off my PhD because of it
[19:52] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well how did you ask for help do you think that could be part of the problem ? Just asking!
[19:52] <LaserJock> I asked on IRC, on Planet Ubuntu, on the mailing lists
[19:52] <LaserJock> I asked everywhere I could
[19:52] <ace_suares> LaserJock: ohh hat's bad. well i am putting of the quotes i was supposed to make today and a project that gives immediate cash. BAD. BAD ACE. SILLY MAN.
[19:52] <LaserJock> I laid out specific things that could be done
[19:53] <Ahmuck> let's say 3 people had been mentored over the last 3 releases, 8.04 - 9.04 ... which i've been with edubuntu since.  you would have gained 3 more devs and would have 6 rather than 3 todsy
[19:53] <ace_suares> I'd love to see the specific things you needed to be done. Of course if it's coding i can't help.
[19:53] <LaserJock> I sent an email saying exactly what things needed to be done for Jaunty's release
[19:53] <ace_suares> was it all coding requests?
[19:53] <LaserJock> and I got *0* response
[19:53] <LaserJock> no
[19:53] <LaserJock> it was docs, website, and packaging
[19:53] <LaserJock> all minimal activities
[19:54] <Ahmuck> e-mails are temporail
[19:54] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: right, I agree would be nice to have had 3 people to mentor
[19:54] <ace_suares> You know, I shouldnt' say this, but I jumped in and I want to see this trough. At least till the website and the wiki are cleaned up. I really *need* the docs sometimes so it's very much in my benefit. It's just a huge amount of time. BHut I will try now to see this trough.
[19:55] <LaserJock> we also need people willing to learn
[19:55] <ace_suares> I think three people showed interest in helping. I want to try do the LP mentroing thing and se eif i can catch them to really help.
[19:55] <ace_suares> and as a matte rof fact, uptill now I like your mentoring LaserJock :-)
[19:55] <LaserJock> one of the frustrations I've had in Edubuntu is that potential contributors seem to be very demanding in Edubuntu compared to Ubuntu as a whole
[19:56] <ace_suares> You need to help me on the mentoring in LP though LaserJock
[19:56] <LaserJock> Edubuntu gets a lot of demands and a lot of "this is what you're doing wrong"
[19:56] <Ahmuck> edubuntu has a void
[19:56] <Ahmuck> which may be causing your demading
[19:57] <ace_suares> well, tyou're working with teachers. Have ever met a teacher who wants to learn from someone else? No offense, teachers!
[19:57] <LaserJock> the fundamental problem though is not knowing what to do
[19:57] <LaserJock> I can tell you exactly what needs to be done, etc.
[19:57] <Ahmuck> btw, is your phd done?
[19:57] <LaserJock> it's written
[19:57] <LaserJock> I defend Thursday
[19:58] <Ahmuck> you need to be concentrating on defending imho
[19:58] <LaserJock> well, there is that
[19:58] <LaserJock> but I hate seeing things as they are
[19:59] <Ahmuck> it'll be easy to get to things as they are after thursday
[19:59] <Ahmuck> trust me, it won't fall apart
[19:59] <ace_suares> LaserJock: lets work together on getting a list of easy tasks and then lets work together on have people do that stuff. I can mentor wiki changes. Lets also take one step back and do this during one whole month and see where we are come september.
[20:00] <ace_suares> Ahmuck is right it wont fall any more apart :-)
[20:00] <LaserJock> ok, I can put a list of things together
[20:00] <LaserJock> but people need to trust me and respond, you know
[20:01] <LaserJock> I know things would be much better if I had time to actually be active with getting these things done
[20:02] <LaserJock> and hopefully my new job will allow some of that
[20:02] <LaserJock> but if people can just trust me for a bit I swear we can turn this around
[20:02] <ace_suares> are you saying i don't trust you and dont' respond to you?
[20:02] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you've done more in the last week than anybody else has done in 2 years
[20:03] <ace_suares> LaserJock: and then some, I am involved in ltsp/eduntu since 2005 it's about time that I did something worthwile
[20:03] <LaserJock> so I hope you're just the beginning, but you can hopefully understand my frustration
[20:04] <LaserJock> and I know that other people have *wanted* to help
[20:04] <ace_suares> but I never knew what to do exactly and even now it's hard to find it out.
[20:04] <LaserJock> I'm not trying to put other people down
[20:04] <LaserJock> and I know a lot of people do excellent support work
[20:04] <LaserJock> but I really need signification technical contribution
[20:04] <ace_suares> i could have done a lto more if i knew what to be done now i was figuring out things along the way that's more work and  goes slower.
[20:04] <LaserJock> I need people who are willing to do packaging work
[20:05] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well i can't help you with packaging before the wiki cleanup is completed
[20:05] <ace_suares> I learnd packaging though, the very basic of it
[20:05] <LaserJock> if a person are able to do that then everything else comes fairly natural
[20:05] <ace_suares> and i can promise to help you on
[20:05] <ace_suares> - help define the stuff in LP mentoring
[20:05] <LaserJock> people have this concept that a "developer" is some sort of uber coder
[20:05] <ace_suares> - do the actual work when the website and wiki are done
[20:06] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well that's how some of them try to come off, anyway :-(
[20:06] <LaserJock> an OS developer is far from that
[20:06] <LaserJock> I'm a chemist
[20:06] <LaserJock> I've never taken a computer course in my life
[20:06] <ace_suares> I am a generalist
[20:06] <LaserJock> I just learned by getting in there and doing
[20:06] <ace_suares> heh i code since i am 15
[20:07] <ace_suares> but coding gets in the way of my social life
[20:07] <ace_suares> so i don't do it full time
[20:07] <ace_suares> and i don't do static type languages
[20:07] <LaserJock> so my point is if *I* can do it then I think a lot of people can
[20:07] <ace_suares> just ruby (on rails) and PHP and a little bash
[20:07] <LaserJock> and we just need to figure out how to excite them and enable them to do it
[20:08] <ace_suares> LaserJock: I am very sorry, I am just concerned about the docs right now and I don't have much ears for the other problems
[20:08] <ace_suares> i hope you can understand that and work with that
[20:08] <LaserJock> well
[20:08] <ace_suares> I can do packaging too, in a couple of months
[20:08] <LaserJock> as long as there are other people who are concerned I certainly don't care one bit
[20:09] <ace_suares> and if we can make the overall structure more clear and define short term goals for new recruits 9develoers too) we might win some.
[20:09] <LaserJock> people are welcome to work on areas that they want
[20:09] <LaserJock> the wiki certainly needs help
[20:09] <ace_suares> i thin ka good wiki will make it easier for new devleopers to join too.
[20:09] <LaserJock> but I'm hoping we can get a few people into the more technical bit
[20:09] <ace_suares> LaserJock: don't you understand you are making me feel less wanted ?
[20:10] <LaserJock> am I?
[20:11] <LaserJock> seriously?
[20:12] <ace_suares> yes... consider the following line on the wiki... wait...
[20:13] <ace_suares> Even if you can't program software, there are many ways to get involved with the Edubuntu project, whether it's documentation, testing, packaging, artwork, or reviewing of material.
[20:13] <LaserJock> right
[20:13] <ace_suares> (from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/GetInvolved)
[20:13] <ace_suares> what do you think that message relays to people like me ?
[20:13] <LaserJock> that people are welcome to get involved
[20:14] <LaserJock> I just don't understand why you would feel less wanted
[20:14] <LaserJock> I said "the wiki certainly needs help"
[20:14] <ace_suares> no. it says well, we 'd rather talk to developers who can code, then you, but even if you can't code, we'll have some unimprtant jpob for you where we can't really care about much
[20:14] <ace_suares> LaserJock: this is nothing personal ! I am trying to bend the way the 'community' looks at devs and non-devs
[20:14] <LaserJock> good grief, that's not what it says
[20:15] <LaserJock> it's addressing a specific thing that Ubuntu has often found
[20:15] <ace_suares> well, that's what people certainly can read
[20:15] <LaserJock> that you have to be a coder to contribute
[20:15] <ace_suares> It's non-neutral.
[20:15] <LaserJock> that statement *specifically* to contradict that notion
[20:15] <ace_suares> It states that the 'normal' way is to be a coder and EVEN it that's not you you still can help
[20:16] <ace_suares> well let's not discuss it further, i KNOW it was ment to be a good statement but it's not.
[20:16] <ace_suares> It owuld e like saying even if you are a women you can still buy a toyota
[20:16] <ace_suares> it's all perception!
[20:16] <ace_suares> I think the deubuntu community has to become very carefull about what message it sends
[20:17] <ace_suares> that's my point
[20:17] <LaserJock> yes
[20:17] <ace_suares> that's why i tried to change the wording on the new wiki homepage to be more neutral to the status of dev's . I don't know it that works, it needs review
[20:17] <LaserJock> but frankly
[20:17] <LaserJock> I don't know how much people actually read this stuff
[20:17] <ace_suares> well i read it
[20:18] <ace_suares> isn't that enough?
[20:18] <LaserJock> sure, sure
[20:18] <ace_suares> you are aiming at like 3 new devs and 3 people that do other stuff in the next 3 months?
[20:18] <LaserJock> it's just easy for me to get a bit frustrated when there are *very* important issues that aren't being addressed
[20:18] <LaserJock> and we're debating wording
[20:18] <LaserJock> I know the issues are real issues
[20:18] <ace_suares> there you are doing it again.
[20:19] <ace_suares> i personally can understand you frustrations
[20:19] <LaserJock> do you realize we are very close to not having a release at all?!
[20:19] <ace_suares> but what can i do about it?
[20:19] <ace_suares> no i didn't realize that
[20:19] <ace_suares> but how can i help to change that
[20:20] <LaserJock> well, we need people willing to dig into packaging, bug triaging, and seed management
[20:20] <ace_suares> the only thin i think i can do is try to make the wiki and website better and help with getting more poeple involved albeit in the 'other' department
[20:21] <LaserJock> ok, and that's OK
[20:21] <ace_suares> like i said LaserJock lets setup these tasks in LP this week or the next and make sure we can mentor people into it so that if someone comes alon, the can start woking right away!
[20:21] <ace_suares> instead of slowly finding out what the hell it is all about
[20:21] <LaserJock> I don't mind you working on wiki and website, we *do* need that
[20:21] <LaserJock> but it's not super high priority for me
[20:21] <ace_suares> okay okay
[20:21] <LaserJock> so I'm not trying to dissuade you from your work
[20:22] <ace_suares> so if  there is no one of the core members for who it's a high priority
[20:22] <ace_suares> who will guide me then? No one?
[20:22] <ace_suares> I'd better leave now then if the porospects are that bleak :-(
[20:22] <LaserJock> well, that is a very difficult part of this
[20:22] <LaserJock> we've known for a while that the problem with growing the community is that we have to have a community to grow it with
[20:23] <LaserJock> in order to do mentoring we need to have mentors
[20:23] <ace_suares> well YOu need to be the mentors there are no others
[20:23] <LaserJock> so initially we need to have some pretty self-directed people
[20:23] <LaserJock> that aren't going to need a ton of mentoring
[20:23] <ace_suares> ha ha
[20:23] <Ahmuck> i feel the same way
[20:24] <ace_suares> so I work my butt of for a new structure proposal, very self directed
[20:24] <LaserJock> yep
[20:24] <ace_suares> and the ogra says dont touch the specs
[20:24] <LaserJock> well
[20:24] <ace_suares> and you say hey all the links should point outwards
[20:24] <LaserJock> here's my advice
[20:24] <ace_suares> and stuff
[20:24] <LaserJock> self-directed doesn't mean without discussion and advice
[20:24] <Ahmuck> i've done source building, and creating debs from checkinstall, but as i recall, ubuntu packaging is a rather contovlvultued process
[20:24] <ace_suares> yeah but who'll give advice if you don't
[20:25] <LaserJock> I can give advice
[20:25] <ace_suares> in fact that makes you a mentor
[20:25] <ace_suares> doent it?
[20:25] <LaserJock> but I can't be here 24x7 advising *after* the fact
[20:25] <ace_suares> and why not?
[20:25] <ace_suares> it's just a proposal
[20:25] <ace_suares> you can move things around after it is proposed
[20:25] <ace_suares> thats the goal of a proposal isn't it?
[20:25] <LaserJock> ok, well, frankly because we don't need a proposal so much
[20:26] <LaserJock> we need people to implement know things moreso
[20:26] <LaserJock> again, *not* that proposals are bad
[20:26] <ace_suares> implement as in coding?
[20:26] <LaserJock> no
[20:26] <ace_suares> or packaging?
[20:26] <LaserJock> no
[20:26] <LaserJock> as in writing content, deleting pages, etc.
[20:27] <ace_suares> omg
[20:27] <ace_suares> I am glad you wrote up that email yesterday
[20:27] <ace_suares> that's a good start
[20:27] <ace_suares> i rest my case for now
[20:27] <LaserJock> it's just that I'm going to be a bit slow
[20:28] <LaserJock> I'm in the middle of finish my PhD, moving across the US, starting a new job, selling a house
[20:28] <ace_suares> becasue you and I disagree that you need a good new structure before you can really move and delete
[20:28] <ace_suares> Hey it's okay to be slow
[20:28] <LaserJock> and my grandfather is in the hospital with terminal cancer at the moment
[20:28] <ace_suares> I ma not going to keep up that pace
[20:28] <LaserJock> I'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm a bit delayed right now
[20:28] <ace_suares> It's okay to be slow
[20:29] <ace_suares> as long as you say just those things that need saying
[20:29] <ace_suares> which you do
[20:29] <ace_suares> obviously
[20:29] <LaserJock> what I think it would have been a bit less frustrating if you'd asked about like the specs and links *first*
[20:29] <ace_suares> sorry about your grandfather
[20:29] <ace_suares> but what did i do with the specs?
[20:29] <LaserJock> I realize you probably didn't know
[20:29] <ace_suares> what did i do wrong
[20:29] <ace_suares> no i knew nothing
[20:29] <LaserJock> I don't know what you did, you may not have done anything
[20:29] <ace_suares> i fixed 4 specs
[20:30] <ace_suares> i added CategoryEdubuntuSpec which is usefull to me
[20:30] <LaserJock> the issue is that people will often just "cleanup" by deleting or moving specs
[20:30] <LaserJock> and that breaks things
[20:30] <ace_suares> oh man
[20:30] <ace_suares> i'd never do that
[20:30] <LaserJock> so ogra was just probably trying to make sure you didn't as it's been done before
[20:30] <ace_suares> i put two of them in proposed for removal
[20:30] <ace_suares> and ogra read that and expained that they should not be removed and so the system works!
[20:30] <LaserJock> yep
[20:31] <LaserJock> so as long as you don't get discouraged by that we're all good
[20:31] <LaserJock> you've learned a lot
[20:31] <ace_suares> i didn't delete i just put them in proposed for removel
[20:31] <LaserJock> you've done a lot
[20:31] <ace_suares> becasue that is the system
[20:31] <LaserJock> and we're all better for it
[20:31] <ace_suares> first flag them and let the knowers decide
[20:31] <ace_suares> that's the procedure that can work
[20:31] <ace_suares> like we discussed yesterday
[20:31] <LaserJock> yep
[20:32] <ace_suares> so we are good
[20:32] <ace_suares> there shoud be no fear on your side
[20:32] <ace_suares> that i will break things
[20:32] <ace_suares> and if i break something by accident
[20:32] <ace_suares> you cna revert easily can't you (can you revert deletions?)
[20:32] <LaserJock> I think we can revert everything
[20:33] <ace_suares> so even if i make an accident you, we can fix it
[20:33] <LaserJock> yep
[20:33] <ace_suares> so no fears then
[20:37] <Ahmuck> LJ, u need to concentrate on your dissert, and your new job imho
[20:38] <Ahmuck> anywho, i'm out for the afternoon.
[20:38] <Ahmuck> ace_suares: i followed the wiki links you gave, and that thing looks scary
[20:38] <Ahmuck> it's a mile long
[20:41] <Ahmuck> i'm not sure how to contribute to the wiki
[20:45] <Ahmuck> am i disconnected again?
[20:48] <Ahmuck> syn
[20:48] <LaserJock> well
[21:04] <ace_suares> Ahmuck: ?
[21:12] <ace_suares> bye for now!
[22:46] <dgroos1> Hi All
[22:48] <dgroos1> I'm trying to install CmapTools, an app that is critical in my classroom, as a localapp--if run on the server just 2-3 people using it overwhelms the server.
[22:49] <dgroos1> I can't figure how to install it on the chroot as it uses a graphical install--any ideas?
[22:51] <gavinmc> i gather it doesn't work to just chroot into it with DISPLAY set?
[22:54] <dgroos1> can you translate that to newbie-speak? :)
[22:54] <gavinmc> ah, sorry.
[22:55] <gavinmc> If you run something like "sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386" (or wherever your chroot is based)
[22:55] <gavinmc> and run it what happens?
[22:56] <gavinmc> you probably need to copy the file into the chroot before you do that.
[22:56] <gavinmc> should i explain what chroot does?
[22:57] <dgroos1> I get the prompt: root@gcos2:/#
[22:57] <dgroos1> That would be great!
[22:57] <gavinmc> chroot is short for CHange ROOT
[22:58] <gavinmc> if you chroot to a particular directory, you get a shell which sees that directory as / and cannot see anything outside that directory
[22:58] <gavinmc> that's what you've done.
[22:58] <gavinmc> (exit will get you out of it)
[22:58] <dgroos1> Ok... so then it would see the /opt... as the new root?
[22:59] <gavinmc> you (hopefully) can now run the installer in the chrooted environment.
[22:59] <gavinmc> exactly
[22:59] <dgroos1> and the DISPLAY you mentioned earlier is to get an xterminal?
[22:59] <dgroos1> or something...
[22:59] <gavinmc> DISPLAY is an "environment variable"
[23:00] <Ahmuck> dgroos1: there is a section in the ltsp manual on chroot iirc http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
[23:00] <gavinmc> it's a setting for the shell and tells graphical commands what display to send their windows to
[23:00] <dgroos1> Ahmuck--I'll be reading it, thanks!
[23:00] <gavinmc> you can see it with "echo $DISPLAY"
[23:00] <gavinmc> you might but might not need to set it after running the chroot command
[23:01] <Ahmuck> dgroos1: moreever, after reading chroot, there is also a section on local apps.  for setting the local apps up.  i assume you've done this already
[23:02] <dgroos1> :) w/the echo command I got this response :0.0
[23:02] <Ahmuck> http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
[23:02] <gavinmc> that means your sitting locally at the server.
[23:03] <Ahmuck> u actually need to enable localapps in your lts.conf file
[23:03] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: I've googled and read everything I can find/understand on localapps for days...
[23:04] <gavinmc> have you managed to set up any localapp (eg firefox)?
[23:04] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: right, the manual I do need to read that.
[23:04] <Ahmuck> the ltsp manual reading is essential to understanding how ltsp works.  it takes about an hour for me to read through it.
[23:04] <dgroos1> gavinmc: yes, I'm sitting at the server.  I have set up localapps and they are working (actually a volunteer has helped do that)
[23:04] <Ahmuck> it's an old saying but in this case it's fairly true
[23:05] <gavinmc> setting up an ltsp app usually (I think) involves running apt-get install ... within a chroot.
[23:05] <dgroos1> however, he hasn't been able to get the NAT working so can't use Firefox on the thin clients yet.
[23:05] <gavinmc> what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command
[23:06] <gavinmc> did you go through the steps in the wiki?
[23:07] <gavinmc> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
[23:08] <gavinmc> (for NAT that is)
[23:09] <dgroos1> gavinmc: when you say: "what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command" do you mean that I need to run a command to start the... I think I get it.  I'll try it in a few moments and get back!  Thanks!
[23:09] <gavinmc> What I'd try is:
[23:09] <dgroos1> And, yes he used that page as the basis of his work and considered using ace's alternative solution though with the cautions at the end decided against it.
[23:10] <gavinmc> 1. copy the installer file into the chroot. make sure it's executable (chmod +x <filename>)
[23:10] <gavinmc> 2.
[23:10] <gavinmc> 2. chroot /opt/ltsp.......
[23:10] <gavinmc> 3. ./<installerfile>
[23:11] <gavinmc> there are various reasons that might not work, but it's the first thing to try
[23:11] <gavinmc> as regards the NAT, I'd like to spend a few minutes debugging if you have time.
[23:11] <gavinmc> I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight
[23:13] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: i'd be interested in de-bugging that with you
[23:14] <Ahmuck> i've tried local apps and am failing
[23:14] <Ahmuck> when i start firefox, i get 404
[23:14] <dgroos1> gavinmc: "I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight" Cool--I appreciate that attention to quality as it makes someone who is barely beyond the cookbook application of knowledge, successful.
[23:15] <dgroos1> gavinmc: let me try to apply what you've taught me/told me first then I'll be back--will that work?  will you still be around?
[23:16] <Ahmuck> that's my same question.  i can get myself to the computer lab if  your going to be around today
[23:16] <gavinmc> I'm going to bed now I'm afraid. However, we could do it via email
[23:17] <gavinmc> my email is gmccullagh _at_ gmail _dot_ com
[23:17] <dgroos1> :) not 5:17 in the afternoon where you are :)
[23:17]  * Ahmuck hates gmail
[23:18] <gavinmc> better yet, could you email it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
[23:18] <dgroos1> Shall I/we put it on the list serve to provide a resource for others?
[23:18] <dgroos1> right.
[23:18] <gavinmc> I'm not really very irc-clued so I'll trust your judgement on that one
[23:19] <gavinmc> ahmuck: do you hate it so much you won't send email to it?
[23:19] <Ahmuck> i'll send to edubuntu-users
[23:19] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: almost
[23:20] <dgroos1> actually, I asked if we oughtn't send it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com or was implying that anyway.
[23:20] <gavinmc> Basically, if either/both of you can mail that list with a descriptive subject like "nat howto didn't work"
[23:20] <gavinmc> and include the output of each "test" that would be a good start
[23:21] <gavinmc> ahmuck: :-)
[23:21] <dgroos1> test?
[23:21] <gavinmc> on the wiki page there are tests beside several of the steps
[23:22] <dgroos1> Will do.  And thanks for your help, gavinmc.
[23:22] <gavinmc> I can stay up a little longer if one of you can get to a server now?
[23:22] <Ahmuck> 15 min for me, but i do think i'll take it to the list
[23:23] <dgroos1> I can test it now... I'll try.
[23:23] <gavinmc> that'd be great.
[23:23] <gavinmc> I've obviously missed some trap somewhere that you guys are falling into
[23:24] <Ahmuck> my server works with ltsp, but it worked automagically.  i've not natted, but couldn't get firefox to work with ltsp
[23:24] <Ahmuck> in chroot/localapps
[23:24] <Ahmuck> if nat is that solution, i'll need to fix that
[23:24] <gavinmc> so, you have firefox running as a localapp, but it can't see webpages?
[23:25] <Ahmuck> yes
[23:25] <gavinmc> right. nat is probably what  you need.
[23:26] <Ahmuck> ah ... for some reason reading the ltsp manual, i did not notice that i needed nat for things to work, i'll review it again, i'm sure i missed it there
[23:27] <gavinmc> basically, if a standard thin client runs firefox, firefox runs on the ltsp server so it can connect to anything the ltsp server can
[23:27] <gavinmc> if firefox is running as a localapp, it can connect to anything the thin client itself can connect to.
[23:27] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: that info was VERY recently added to the jaunty localapps page at the bottom, I believe.
[23:28] <gavinmc> if you have a 2-interface server, your thin clients probably need to connect through the ltsp server and it needs to be told how to "NAT" them
[23:28] <gavinmc> dgroos1: by me, two days ago.
[23:28] <Ahmuck> k, that make sense
[23:28] <Ahmuck> running firefox as a localapp will help me greatly
[23:29] <gavinmc> if you haven't tried already, the steps here should hopefully get you there https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
[23:29] <gavinmc> feedback on this page is greatly appreciated
[23:33] <dgroos1> gavinmc: I'll give fine-tooth reactions on that page--my first is, in the practical instructions section, step 1, provide directions on how to see if the thin client can reach the internet.  I just tried: "ping google.com" and it worked, I don't think I would have known to do this 2 months ago, however...
[23:33] <gavinmc> okay, i xpected people to just open a web browser, but i can state that explicitly.
[23:34] <dgroos1> Hmmm... I guess I misunderstood then, I thought one uses this page when firefox on the thin client can't access the web?
[23:35] <dgroos1> OH--I got it, 'standard thin client' not as localapp!
[23:36] <dgroos1> But... if a person just installed firefox as a localapp, I'm not sure how I could run firefox in standard mode w/out undoing what was done in the localapps setup page... right?
[23:39] <gavinmc> I'm not certain how localapps are done at this point, i need to check the manual
[23:41] <dgroos1> well, if using Terminal and ping google.com is an acceptable test, that would be easiest...
[23:42] <dgroos1> Now, on to step 2 in the practical instructions area...
[23:42] <gavinmc> it's not a bad test, but it's not quite precise enough
[23:43] <gavinmc> Instead, just use firefox sitting at the server itself.
[23:43] <gavinmc> that's the test we really want, to make sure the server can connect.
[23:44] <dgroos1> OK right--that is kind of the same thing I guess.  OK--passed test 1.
[23:44] <dgroos1> OK, step 2... I see ip addresses all over the place, on both NIC's with ifconfig, on my router I've got different ip's  is there a command/description that will lead me to know the ip I need?
[23:45] <gavinmc> ifconfig will show you a stanza for each network interface
[23:45] <gavinmc> do i presume you have two network connections in your server?
[23:46] <dgroos1> yes indeed
[23:46] <gavinmc> okay, so they'll be called eth0 and eth1 (more than likely).
[23:46] <dgroos1> yes
[23:46] <Ahmuck> eth0, eth149 here
[23:47] <gavinmc> ahmuck: that's a little wierd, but okay.
[23:47] <gavinmc> what's the ip address of your main router?
[23:48] <dgroos1> What's the best way to find out?
[23:48] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: i've got an nvidia bug.  it recreated one of the interfaces on every boot
[23:48] <gavinmc> ahmuck: ouch. that's nasty.
[23:48] <gavinmc> dgroos1: run route -n on the ltsp server
[23:49] <gavinmc> an look at the line that says 0.0.0.0
[23:49] <gavinmc> the gateway column tells you that.
[23:50] <gavinmc> tells you the ip address of your router i mean
[23:50] <dgroos1> it says: 192.168.3.1
[23:50] <gavinmc> right. so what are the ip addresses of you server?
[23:50] <gavinmc> from ifconfig
[23:51] <dgroos1> 192.168.0.254 and 192.168.3.72
[23:51] <dgroos1> eth0 and eth1 respectively
[23:51] <gavinmc> okay, the second one is the one on the main network. the first is the address of the card facing your thin clients. can you see how I tell that?
[23:52] <dgroos1> yes, thanks for asking!
[23:53] <gavinmc> so, in step2, what you're doing is telling the thin clients to connect to the internet through the ltsp server (192.168.0.254 to them).
[23:54] <gavinmc> My test is a little ambiguous on reflection. I need to think about it for a minute
[23:57] <gavinmc> LTSP used to have more black and white local apps, which were simpler to deal with. You were either running ALL local apps or ALL on the server. This isn't true any more
[23:58] <dgroos1> Is there any reason to not run all apps as local apps?
[23:58] <mhall119> dgroos1: thin clients are supposed to be thin
[23:59] <dgroos1> Thus Nubae's fat solution? :)
[23:59]  * mhall119 wasn't here for most of this conversation
[23:59] <dgroos1> So, still, why be surgical about it, why not run all apps?