=== OldSchool is now known as vorian
=== swoody_ is now known as swoody
=== Crazyguy_ is now known as Crazyguy
ongunwho can help to me10:02
czajkowskiongun: with ?10:03
onguni have a problem10:05
onguncan i ask or ?10:05
czajkowskiongun: with regards to what? ask but not many people in here you may find -locoteams more people10:05
ongunpc give : initramfs errors10:06
ongunwhat can i do ?10:06
czajkowskithis really isnt the room to ask10:07
sladenDPic: doesn't appear to be anything booked here today19:55
DPicsladen, yeah, i chacked and added out meeting to the calendar19:56
sladenDPic: wooh!19:57
=== DPic changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: First Ubuntu Gaming Team Meeting Today! Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2009-07-26 | #ubuntu-meeting Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
DPic1 minute to meeting!19:59
DPictime to begin!20:00
sakurambooim gonna be in and out of the meeting, since its my birthday, we might be having a meal soon20:00
DPiceverybody have the agenda up?20:00
sakuramboobut, ill be here the best i can20:00
sakurambooi do20:00
DPiceverybody wish sakuramboo a happy birthday?20:00
TAG-againHey guys, its the ancient goat here20:00
Babyhappy birthday sakuramboo :)20:00
TAG-againDitto :D20:01
sakuramboothanks, everyone20:01
TAG-againHeh, cant believe I made it20:01
sakurambooso, DPic, what kind of concerns are there that you might have?20:01
TAG-againThe airport wlan blocks irc :/20:01
DPicsakuramboo, well, not so much my concerns, but the concerns of the commmunity that came up when i announced the group20:02
DPicnamely, that we'd be stepping on toes of debian-games20:02
* Baby comes from Debian/Ubuntu Games Team20:02
sakurambooi dont really see that as a concern because we wouldnt be package maintainers20:02
DPicsakuramboo, that's what i wanted to emphasize20:02
* pabs3 from Debian too20:03
sakurambooi do think, however, that we should be more proactive to suggesting games for debian games to package20:03
DPicthat's the next topic20:03
* goneri is from Debian Game20:03
DPicbeing a gaming team at all, people unfamiliar with us will come to us with those kinds of requests20:04
DPici was thinking we could have a small team dedicated to communicating thsoe things to the debian games team if and when they come up20:04
sakurambooi was just gonna suggest that we should have a completely open line of communication with DG20:04
goneriactually the Debian Games Team has already some MOTU20:04
* sladen waves at goneri (or even have them in your midst)20:04
Babymore than that, we should have a continuous fluent communication among boths teams, in my opinion20:05
sakuramboobut, my complaint is more with DG and their game suggestions20:05
KhaaLDPic, that sounds good, considering how many things this team could do, its better to split and make mini-teams handling specific tasks20:05
DPicyes, but making it the job of a few people to make sure that that communications happens might be necessary20:05
sladenstop thinking us-and-them20:05
Babysakuramboo: what is your complain?20:05
Babysladen: right, we're in the same boat :)20:06
sakuramboowell, its not a complaint with DG, its more with using a bug tracker to submit package ideas20:06
sladenBaby: and even more, some people will be in both :)20:06
Babysladen: hopefully :)20:06
DPicthat was another of the DG concerns20:06
KhaaLone thing that i wonder is, should the ubuntu gaming team arrange gaming nights, clans etc, or should it focus only on "beaurocratic" things regarding gaming?20:06
TAG-againHey qubodup20:06
sakuramboosuggesting a program for packaging is not a bug, its a package request20:07
DPicif there two teams do the same thing, why do we need both? that's why we need a bit of separation just by the definition of our teams and what we do20:07
Babysakuramboo: I have no problems with anyone havin complains as long as we have feedback about them and can do something about it20:07
Noyahey everyone20:07
sakurambooand my other problem i have with DG is the time length it takes to update packages20:08
Babywe have limited resources :)20:08
DPicsakuramboo, yeah, i don't think we can blame them, but perhaps directing people from our wiki page will help20:08
goneriwe accept help20:08
Babyif we could have a list of priority packages we could at least make sure that those are as up to date as posssible20:08
Babybut it's hard to guarantee that for all games20:09
sakurambooi understand that resources are a big factor, but i think that if we were to come out with a way for FOSS gaming developers to make it easier for them to pass them upstream to the maintainers, we would get them much faster20:09
sakuramboobecause the current method is, when a new release of a game is out, we need someone to actually KNOW that its released20:10
gonerisakuramboo: how? You can already join us if you want to speed up packaging20:10
sakurambooand with a lot of the packages, most go unnoticed20:10
DPicis this the kind of teachincal discussion that intrudes on DG?20:10
sladenBaby: okay, so it would be useful to help prioritise, and have people (in general) help with notifying with a new upstream release is out?20:10
Babysladen: certainly :)20:10
TAG-againJust a quick question about the format of the meeting, are we just going to tackle it via discussion, or will we use the by topic format?20:11
sakuramboogoneri: i was thinking of getting in touch with all the current games offered, find out how they are all being offered (ie. ftp access, http, cvn, svc, whatever) and automate the process20:11
DPicTAG-again, we'll go by topics, but if that brings up something new, it's OK20:11
sakurambooso that way, when a new version is uploaded, the script would download it, package it and release it to the repo20:12
aburchsakuramboo: Like uscan and friends do?20:12
Babysakuramboo: not all of them are even maintained upstream20:12
sakurambooim not familar with them20:12
gonerisakuramboo: like uscan and watch file?20:12
Babysakuramboo: it's really not that easy to make release-package cycle automatic20:13
sakurambooi understand that some projects arent worked on any more and may start to cause problems with this, but, i think that if we have some uniformity with the devs, it would make things much easier for everyone20:13
Babyusuallu patches have to be removed or refreshed, some stuff in the build system changes, build dependencies change ...20:13
DPicdoes DG have regular meetings?20:14
sakuramboowe shouldnt have to patch the source, especially when you download it, you are getting the full source any way20:14
Babymost of the serious stuff we do is through the mailing list20:14
Babyso that everyone can intervene20:14
goneriDPic: actually we are at Debconf9 right now20:15
Babysakuramboo: you often have to patch the source20:15
Babysakuramboo: sometimes it won't even compile otherwise20:15
sakuramboothats for bleeding edge20:15
Babyin an ideal world we wouldn't need to patch right20:16
sakurambooand, its bleeding edge to the point that they arent even waiting for the patches to be put into the CMS20:16
DPicgoneri, is that once a year? isn't that a bit different?20:16
Babybut in this world it usually becomes something unavoidable20:16
sladenand if you're really lucky, upstream take the patch back so you don't need to keep it20:16
sakurambooi understand that its unavoidable, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt just give up20:16
sladenbut aswell as the debian/ directory you normally end up having to path *something* just to make it work20:17
goneriit depends on the meeting, there is also FOSDEM. What's the point?20:17
sladenor to deal with some portability issues (especially if the "cross-platform" game tends to have an MS Windowsy focus20:17
Babyin any case, this meeting is not about how to improve packaging methods right?20:18
Noyaokay, so what is the next topic on the list?20:19
sakurambooDPic: still on the goals, purpose and scope?20:19
DPicthat was bundled with explaining that people don't need to be concerned20:20
DPicbut let's go over it anyway20:20
DPicbasically, this team lives off of the ubuntu community, and focuses on the promotion of FOSS games and Ubuntu through each other20:21
DPicfo example the gaming clan that we'll discuss later20:21
DPicwe're an advocacy/marketing group not a development/packaging group20:21
DPicany technical discussions we have we will communicate with the DG team20:21
DPicwe only deal with foss games: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam#Why%20FOSS?20:22
popeyWhat's the rationale for not being the marketing mouthpiece of the DG/UG team? Rather than be a separate team?20:22
popeyi.e. why not join the teams that already exist?20:22
DPicpopey, UG? we are UG, aren't we?20:22
goneriI've the feeling you want DG to do the grunt work :)20:22
popeyI am talking about DG (and the fact that there are Ubuntu Motu people on it thus making it a kinda DG/UG despite being called DG)20:23
sakuramboohow are we to handle people who are anti-foss? like, for example, when our channel was first made, we had a lot of people coming in wondering how to get CS:S working in WINE and all about commercial games?20:23
DPicwe can still help them20:23
BabyI'm thinking that perhaps there is some concern of Ubuntu not being so visible in the Debian/Ubuntu Games Team, might I be right?20:23
DPicbut our official projects and such won't be for proprietary games20:23
DPicBaby, like what?20:23
Babyit was a question20:24
sakuramboowell, one of the things someone brought up on the channel, and i think on the mailing list, was to help write documentation to help people getting WINE working with their games20:24
DPicpopey / goneri, having an ubuntu team really bring out more people from the ubuntu community and makes things easier to organize20:24
KhaaLDPic, do we promote FOSS games that run flawlessly in wine, or do they have to be FOSS and native?20:25
DPicsakuramboo, that's fine, but we wouldn't put it on the wiki as some official team project20:25
BabyDPic: DUGT is currently also a Ubuntu Team20:25
sakuramboookay, i see20:25
Babyor we pretend to be20:25
DPicKhaaL, as long as it's all FLOSS, we're all for it20:25
DPicsakuramboo, if out lists/channel becomes flooded with stuff about proprietary games, we might have to re-discuss this, but i don't think it'll be an issue20:26
gonerisakuramboo: PlayOnLinux is maintained in the DGT20:26
sakuramboowell, there are some FOSS games that are either written in things like C# or using windows libraries that cant be ported to other OS's without spending a lot of time and money to replace almost the entire game20:26
DPicBaby, DUGT?20:26
BabyDebian/Ubuntu Games Team20:26
DPicah, the acroym keeps changing20:26
Babywhat I'm trying to explain is that the Team is both Debian and Ubuntu20:27
goneriactually, we was thinking we were Debian and Ubuntu Games Team since there was MOTU and DD in the same time since the beginin20:27
Babythere was never an acronym anyway, not officially afaik :P20:27
sladenhttps://launchpad.net/~pkg-games <--- "Debian/Ubuntu Games Team"20:28
DPicBaby, yes i understand, but the concern would be with splitting up the teams and/or duplicating effort, right? i don't see that happening, and i think this team has already been some good progress here. would would want this team to merge with DG and simply manage our presence on the Ubuntu Wiki?20:28
Babysome time ago we officially asked ubuntu developers who were packaging games to mix both teams and have a D/U Games Team and they accepted20:28
Babywe didn't absorb them, we joined both teams20:29
DPicBaby, so there are already two teams?20:29
sladenDPic: would the focus you're interested in be marketing/promotional/front-end support/finding new games to package, rather than doing the packaging grunt itself?20:29
Babyno, there is one team which is both part of Debian and Ubuntu20:29
sakuramboowhat about hooking up with playdeb.net?20:29
sladen(something that the UGT is perhaps less good at?)20:29
gonerisakuramboo: getdeb already use DG packages. They use to grab the debian/* files from the svn20:30
sakurambooahhh, did not know that20:30
sakuramboobut, they have packages that arent available by DG20:30
Babysakuramboo: yup, probably they do too20:30
sladenactually, this is good, slowly, but surely we're figuring out what is already happening and hopefully it can be organised and written up20:31
DPicsladen, yes, that's what the ubuntu community is great at IMHO20:31
DPicand i think that there's so many people that would be interested in a group dedicated just for that20:32
DPicof course, we want to be very close with DG and there can be much overlap in membership, but not in purpose20:32
DPici think we can get more done that way20:34
DPicthere are activities i don't think the DG team would do like have a gaming clan specifically for ubuntu...20:35
goneriwhy not?20:35
BabyI don't think there would be any problem with that if someone wants to take care of it20:36
gonericlan, like a player team?20:36
ZarelErm, is having a gaming clan specifically for ubuntu even withing our jurisdiction?20:36
KhaaLgoneri, yes. I'd imagne a debian gamer would rather represent his distro than a derivate20:36
KhaaLbut thats just me20:36
DPicteams that all carry ubuntu in the player names so all the windows/mac players will see20:36
Babygoneri: I think it's something like the web portal for gamers we've been discussing for some time20:36
sladenDPic: I don't think the Debian/Ubuntu game team would be objecting!... (though the likely reason is it's not something that has motivated anyway yet)20:36
DPicbasically, this team COULD be part of DG, but i think we can do more by having two teams20:37
ZarelI mean, organizing teams is something players should be doing, not like the Debian Games Team...20:37
goneriDPic: isn't what append already? :)20:37
DPicgoneri, yes, i'm just trying to defend keeping it that way20:37
Babysladen: something like that was proposed two years ago in DebCOnf in Edinburgh20:38
ZarelOh, hmm, apparently it is something we should be discussing. My bad. Carry on.20:38
Babysladen: we just didn't have resources to implement it yet20:38
DPicare those from DG okay with allowing us to continue running to see how it plays out? if you're still unhappy in the coming months we'll talk again?20:38
goneriBaby: actually it was more about providing game servers for popular game20:39
BabyDPic: we're not unhappy!!! :P20:39
sladenBaby: darn, I was so busy trying to roll into my tartan... must have missed that20:39
BabyDPic: we just want to get the best of the cooperation of both teams20:39
Babysladen: XD :)20:39
DPicBaby, alright, my personal opinion, and i think the cast majority of people in this group like having this separate team that can be the sister team of DG20:40
Babywe should go to have dinner or we won't get any :P20:40
goneriI've to leave. The Debconf restaurant is about to close.20:41
sladenre-reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam  it currently states "...are a strictly a marketing and advocacy effort."20:41
DPicBaby, goneri, don't you have laptops? =]20:41
sladengoneri: ta for your time20:41
DPicget all that food and gunk in the keys20:41
Babyyup, we do20:41
DPicso there is one semi-technical discussion i wanted to bring up20:42
DPicwhich is the next topic on the agenda20:42
DPicbug #38679720:42
Babyoki, I have battery for 40 minutes :P20:42
DPicbasically, everyone familiar with the needs of FOSS game/content developers, please read the bug + comments20:43
ZarelDistributed content development?20:43
sladensounds like bzr/git and somewhere to host it20:43
Zarel...sharing resources? Can't we just make a forum for that?20:43
DPicZarel, it's less efficient20:44
sladencodehosting, github, alioth, etc20:44
sakurambooZarel: no, forums are not good for it because its just plain ugly and disorganized20:44
Babyis that like a common repository 4 game data?20:44
ZarelI suppose. So you propose a shared content repository?20:44
sakurambooi thinking of something like a sourceforge, but for art20:44
DPicbasically, i'm not too familiar with the subject, but i've talked to a lot of people who are saying that open source has conquered developing code together, but doing the same thing with content is much different, and is the #1 thing holding back FOSS games20:44
ZarelAn interesting idea.20:44
sakurambooDPic: thats true20:44
DPicthe bug report was to have launchpad implement features to enable just that20:45
sakuramboomost developers are not artists20:45
sladenyeah, images don't diff as well as code20:45
ZarelAnd the other problem is, content probably shouldn't be shared too much between games - each game needs its own unique art...20:45
DPicand we need to figure out what features developers need20:45
ZarelImagine if all games looked like Wesnoth. :/20:45
DPicZarel, well that sharing should be possible20:45
DPicit doesn't mean all games will20:45
sakurambooZarel: there are a few games that uses wesnoth art20:45
ZarelNot, like, "As good as Wesnoth", which would be awesome, but like "identical to Wesnoth"20:45
Noyawhat is about sites like http://opengameart.org/20:45
Zarelsakuramboo: I know; that's why I used it as an example.20:45
DPicmore than just a repository, but actual distributed development of the content20:46
sladenZarel: would you rather good looking icons shared between games (example, a joystick icon, sound icon) or would you rather have to sit down for an extra day and draw (from scratch) a bunch of rushed icons20:46
sladenZarel: FLOSS is about sharing, that's where the development speed comes from (be it pinching code, or images)20:47
DPicZarel, and many games could use less stylistic artwork, and more generic realistic textures, etc20:47
ZarelI guess copied art isn't as bad as poor art.20:47
DPicsharing is what open source is all about, that doesn't mean all projects use all the same stuff and come out the same20:47
DPicZarel, and shared art can change within different projects and become something else, that's what it's all about20:48
sladenZarel: SVG files are the closest to "source code" and you can easily adapt those---perhaps it's about pursuade people to upload the originals, the .svg, the .xcf, the .psp rather than only uploading some downscaled 64x64 icon at the end20:48
ZarelActually, this is a _very_ good idea.20:48
ZarelSharing originals could definitely be useful.20:48
Baby@dinner :)20:48
DPicBaby, what/how is it?20:48
Babyjust eatable :)20:49
sladenprobably just finished queueing!20:49
sakurambooNoya: opengameart.org lookss pretty banging20:49
Noyasorry to just mention it again, but what is about opengameart... it has interesting features like revisions, see here: http://opengameart.org/node/2437/revisions20:49
DPichere's something someone emailed to me as one example of an aspect of content development http://www.imperialwinter.com/?sec=progress20:49
Noyaas I understand the site, everybody can upload open source art, remix it, upload it again etc.20:50
Noyathere are already meshes, textures, maps, sound, etc.20:50
ZarelDPic: Fatal error: require_once: failed opening required file?20:51
Noya(and no, I am not affliated with the site :)20:51
sakurambooNoya: i was totally unfamilar with that site, its gonna be my new home now, thanks :)20:51
ZarelSo is opengameart what bug #386797 is asking for?20:51
DPicZarel, strange...it seems to ahve just gone down20:51
ZarelDPic: Unfortunate.20:51
DPicZarel, it's a lot of it, but not all20:51
sakurambooZarel: opengameart looks like what i was thinking20:52
DPicthe link that i tried to send but just went down was another piece20:52
DPicstructured development of content for games/applications20:52
DPicas in, how much of each piece of content is complete20:52
DPicvoice acting, textures, battletoads, etc20:52
DPicand content development is also very useful for the blender foundation and their open movie projects20:53
DPicit's a huge market that canonical could tap into20:53
sladenit doesn't have to be Canonical :)20:53
DPicsladen, no, but they already have launchpad which could be the center for code and content20:53
DPicthat would be incredible20:53
NoyaDPic: so, what exactly is missing in , lets say launchpad, to do what you just said?20:54
DPicso far i've got the features of opengameart, the progress page that i tried to link from imperial winter and some other things20:55
DPicbut that's what i wanted this discussion to be about20:55
OctalotDoes opengameart have a solution for the problem of spotting copyvios?   One advantage of having a few artists attached to a project is that new art needs to fit the current project's style, so if something is suspected the artist can have suggestions about how to make their art fit -- which will catch people who don't have the talent to draw "their" art.20:55
DPicwhat else could content developers use20:55
sladen(personal guesses, but I want to here other people's):   Image previews, 3D previews, Simple Image diffing (hilighting/only showing the changed pixels in two images20:55
DPicgame content, or open movie content20:55
DPicthe end of this comment has a list of some features https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-foundations/+bug/386797/comments/820:56
ZarelI say that, for communities, it's best to have the entire community on one site. If opengameart already does what we need, no need to make another site. :/20:56
DPicsomeone also mentioned verse http://verse.blender.org/20:56
DPicZarel, it does some of what we need, but not enough20:56
DPicfrom the launchpad comment:20:57
DPic1. nterpretation and visual representation of binary data as:20:57
DPicgimp files (understanding layers, resizing, maybe a sort of "diffing" where you can see where changes are made.20:57
DPicpng and jpg files (understanding that they can be (resized) derivatives of gimp, photoshop or painter binary source files.)20:58
Babyso the idea is to provide artwork for game developers?20:58
DPicsound files (display a wave table, “diffing” by showing changes in this wave table with revisions, understanding volume changes.)20:58
NoyaDPic: I read those comments, and they are nice features,20:58
DPicBaby, provide artwork, and features to help share and develope the artwork20:58
NoyaDPic: but I guess the major part is just to get a pool of open resources20:58
DPicfor games, normal apps that need artwork, and even open movies20:58
ZarelDPic: Doesn't opengameart have a diffing feature?20:58
BabyI'm not sure that should be a distribution's task20:59
DPicBaby, no, it isn't20:59
sladencurrently we "understand" the differences in code by cropping it up into pieces based on the \n character, and then word with those20:59
DPicBaby, it's a huge task20:59
BabyI know, it's very huge20:59
DPicNoya, i wouldn't say that's the major part, perhaps a major part, but only half of what is needed, if even21:00
* Zarel can't help but misinterpret each time he sees a sentence starting with "Baby,"21:00
sladenyou need the equivalent for $various binary files;  and need to work out whether the equivalent is splitting per layer, per object, by XML sub-trees, per scanline, per pixel21:00
DPicZarel, yeah it's weird typing them too21:00
NoyaDPic: how about getting a taskforce together for this21:00
BabyZarel: :P21:00
DPicNoya, that would probably be necessary21:00
DPichow should it be organized?21:00
NoyaDPic: some kind of workgroup, and ideally they should contact opengameart to work together if possible21:01
DPicshall i create a launchpad team to detail everything we're looking for?21:01
DPicor launchpad project?21:01
DPicor launchpad blueprint?21:02
DPicso many options!21:02
NoyaDPic: well ;)21:02
DPici think a team or blueprint would be most appropriate21:02
DPica blueprint would be a detail discussing the changes that would be necessary to launchpad21:02
NoyaDPic: maybe just a launchpad team and some wiki page / blueprint21:02
DPica team would allow us to have a mailing list21:02
DPicalright i'll set that up and we'll talk about it again at the next meeting21:03
DPicany last words on this topic?21:03
NoyaDPic: ideally you could write a mail to the list21:03
DPicNoya, i will21:03
NoyaDPic: telling about the new group21:03
sladenwiki + mailing list0r it21:03
NoyaDPic: and interested people could agree on a working group meeting21:03
sladen(all the ideas need picking out of the logs at  irclogs.ubuntu.com at the end of this meeting21:04
NoyaDPic: so we could focus on the many many other topics ;)21:04
DPicsladen, yeah, i'm going to do that21:04
DPicand put it on the wiki page21:04
DPicthat the agenda is cvurrently on21:04
sladenwhat's next, you're in control21:04
DPicso next topic: ubuntu gaming clan21:04
* KhaaL cheers!21:04
DPicwho suggested the idea?21:05
sakurambooill join the clan, but i dont like attaching a group to my name21:05
KhaaLi did, i suggest that the UG cooperates with ubuntu gaming night, at least during the nights they play FOSS games21:05
DPici'm not familiar with gaming clans, but i understand the purpose would be to show [Ubuntu] in each player gamer tag so that windows/mac users will see it21:05
KhaaL(they reside in #UGN by the way)21:05
ZarelConsidering the state of FOSS gaming currently, we might want to unite all FOSS gamers in one, instead of having any sort of Ubuntu-only clan?21:05
KhaaLZarel, actually there is a reason for this21:06
DPicZarel, in one what?21:06
ZarelThere probably was, but I wasn't there to hear it. :/21:06
ZarelDPic: One clan.21:06
sladen[IDEA] Publicise Ubuntu Gaming Night21:06
KhaaLthing is, if there is a ubuntu clan, and if we can get other distros to have clans of their own, then we could have tournaments and ladders for the FOSS community21:06
DPicsladen, yes, let's do that too21:06
sakurambooDPic: Zarel, is talking about making a [FLOSS] tag and just have one big clan21:06
KhaaLthat will promote FOSS software, and also show the demand for gaming on the linux platform21:07
DPicsakuramboo, well, so we'd have to play on non-FLOSS games?21:07
sakuramboono, but if people want to, they can21:07
ZarelKhaaL: Oh, hmm, that's a very good idea.21:07
DPican interesting idea, but that might conflict with our no-proprietary standpoint21:07
* Zarel goes off to form a Windows gaming clan21:07
DPici say people should do it on their ow21:07
KhaaLDPic, so the clanning thing is independant from UG?21:08
ZarelIt would, ironically, probably be smaller than the Ubuntu gaming clan. There aren't very many FOSS gamers on Windows. :/21:08
DPicbut we should have an ubuntu clan because many FLOSS gamers are still on windows/mac21:08
DPicno, somebody said they got in contact and found that many of the FLOSS gamers on whatever game(s) were playing on windows21:08
sakurambooi would like to find out how many foss gamers are on windows vs linux21:08
DPicKhaaL, were you the one that got the numbers?21:08
KhaaLDPic, what numbers mate?21:09
DPichow many FLOSS gamers are still on windows?21:09
DPicfor some particular game(s)21:09
DPicwell, somebody found out the number was significant21:09
sladenyou'll probably find it's like Firefox;  most of the users are on MS Windows21:10
ZarelWell, yeah, but that's more because there are few good alternatives for Firefox on Windows.21:11
KhaaLwell, then that should transfer them easier to linuxland :)21:11
ZarelThere are many more proprietary games on Windows than browsers.21:11
sakurambooi understand the firefox because of shear market share of windows21:11
KhaaLZarel, propeitary games wont be of our concern anyway21:11
ZarelAnd the relative quality of proprietary games on Windows is higher than the relative quality of proprietary browsers. ;)21:11
sakurambooeven if 100% of linux users use firefox, if 2% of windows users use firefox, thats about the same numbers21:12
KhaaLwell, either way the more foss software a user is using, that exists on both linux and windows, the easier and more appealing it becomes to make the switch21:13
sakurambooi agree KhaaL, you cant migrate people all at once21:13
DPicthe question that really has needed answering is how we'd organize our clan21:14
sakuramboothey need to use each program before making a switch to an different OS21:14
KhaaLdosent matter if its 20% or 2% of the total windows users, our purpose is to make them penguin lovers in the end ;>21:14
ZarelWorks for me.21:14
ZarelWe could drum up publicity on sites such as Xfire...21:14
sakurambooif xfire actually worked on linux21:14
sakurambooinstead of a crappy pidgin plugin21:15
KhaaLDPic, depending on the amount of members, we''ll need one that will recruit members, another to do the technical things such as set up servers...21:15
KhaaLbut we should really look into the possibility to work together with UGN on this21:15
DPicKhaaL, alright, we'll do that then21:15
Noyaagain I would propose a working group for this21:15
KhaaLthey're ahead of us in this aspect and have already arranged gaming nights21:15
sladensakuramboo: what's this about xfire not working?21:16
sladensakuramboo: is it something that is broken and fixable?21:16
Noya(not everz group needs a launchpad team, but a wiki page)21:16
DPici'm going to make a list of action items21:16
sakurambooxfire is windows-only21:16
Zarelsladen: I think he's implying that xfire is Windows-only.21:16
DPicand at our next meeting people can sign up for each of them21:16
NoyaDPic: good idea21:16
DPicPolarina, hi21:17
NoyaDPic: they could all use the same mailinglist, so every team knows what the others do21:17
KhaaLok, as a working groups purpose for this is to cover the possibility to work together with UGN?21:17
DPicNoya, yeah, we won't have seperate mailing lists21:17
ZarelWe should really unite all the FOSS gaming PR teams. :/21:17
DPicexcept perhaps for disctributed content development21:17
NoyaDPic: maybe just a wiki page per team and some person that is responsible for that team / working group21:18
DPicZarel, what other's exist?21:18
Babywe have a mailing list for game teams with all the distros21:18
NoyaDPic: sure21:18
Babyin freedesktop21:18
sakurambooi found it interesting that, i went to a UGN and the game of the night was armagetron21:18
DPicNoya, yeah jobs is the last topic for the meeting21:18
ZarelDPic: I mean, if others do exist. I wouldn't know about that.21:18
sakuramboowe played more armagetron that night than any other game21:18
DPicZarel, so far i've heard of UGN, and perhaps they'd like to be absorbed21:18
ZarelLet's annex them, forcefully. ;)21:19
KhaaLDPic, keep in mind that UGN plays propeitary games aswell21:19
DPicZarel, haha who will lead the conquest?21:19
ZarelReally? Ugh, no thanks, then.21:19
KhaaLso we can cooporate in the FOSS gaming21:19
DPicKhaaL, ah...21:19
DPicperhaps it will just be a partnership ratehr than a new team21:19
sladenoh, it's not a game, it's IM with some extra meta-data21:19
KhaaLits not like there are a plethora of propeitary games for linux anyway :|21:19
ZarelEver heard of Cedega?21:20
sladenactually a Free version of that *would* be interesting, it's close to what Sugar and the current #ubuntuone people are working on21:20
sakuramboosladen: yeah, thats all it is, but it has some nice functionality, but all linux has is a pidgin plugin that sucks21:20
ZarelYou'd be surprised how many games are Linux-compatible with Wine and Wine-derivatives.21:20
DPicZarel, truth.21:20
sladensakuramboo: well, sucky things can be made less sucky21:20
sakurambooKhaaL: actually, there are a lot more than what people think21:20
KhaaLZarel, running through wine is not acceptable imo. gaming companies exploit the wine team efforts IMO21:21
sladensakuramboo: it's called bug fxing21:21
Noyasakuramboo: yeah, you could try to help them fix it ;)21:21
ZarelFun fact, C&C 3 for Mac is basically just Wine + C&C 3 for Windows.21:21
sakurambooim not a developer ;)21:21
DPicalright alright, back to topic =]21:21
KhaaLsakuramboo, well they're not comparable even to the mac platform21:21
DPicnext up is fundraisers21:21
ZarelLet's bake cookies!21:21
sakuramboosell sperm21:22
Zarel...I like my idea better.21:22
sladensakuramboo: no. but you're whinging, which means you've used it noticed problems and are able to report them21:22
sakurambooactually, no, i havent used xfire21:22
sladensakuramboo: which means you're already one up on my (I hadn't even heard of it;  at 13 million users, it clearly has a user-case)21:22
ZarelI've used xfire, but that's because I run Windows.21:23
* Zarel dodges tomatoes21:23
NoyaDPic: well, we first would need a real webpage, ideally with a voting system21:23
sladenin which case, who is saying that it sucks, or are we just repeating hearsay?21:23
KhaaLregarding fundraising, we need to agree on how to choose a game. by largest votes? games showing most promise? games that just went FOSS? or games that are foss but dont run native on linux (thus, the donation would be a "bribe" to port it)?21:23
DPicNoya, well how often would we do fundraisers?21:23
ZarelI've always wondered which FOSS games are popular.21:23
NoyaDPic: so people could vote on game features, on specific games or floss gaming in general21:23
DPicperhaps we should set a website21:23
ZarelI mean, Wesnoth is #1, but who's #2? Does anyone even know?21:23
NoyaDPic: money would be distributed based on the votes21:24
sladenDPic: fundraisers for dying babies with Ubulalalland?21:24
DPicZarel, nexuiz21:24
DPicNoya, or perhaps we could just have a donate buton next to each game21:24
ZarelThere should be a list somewhere.21:24
NoyaDPic: I'd go the opengameart way21:24
DPicZarel, there are lists everywhere, but we should set up a website that is ubuntu-specific21:25
NoyaDPic: collect money from people that goes into a pot21:25
sakurambooDPic: i dont agree with that because we would only be helping out the, say, top 10 games21:25
NoyaDPic: then the money from the pot is distributed depending on various criteria21:25
sakurambooi think it would be better to collect money for some of the lesser known games21:25
DPicsakuramboo, don't agree with which?21:25
KhaaLby the way, if the funds would be divided depending on the votes, wouldnt that also mean most transfer-costs?21:25
NoyaDPic: most games will have a donate button on their website, I guess21:25
KhaaL*more transfer costs21:25
pabs3wow, this meeting is still going?21:25
DPicKhaaL, exactly21:25
DPicpabs3, yes =]21:25
DPicand strong too21:26
sakurambooDPic: listing a bunch of games with donate buttons next to each one21:26
ZarelDPic: I can't find very many lists ranked by popularity.21:26
sladenand who/how would you then donate it _to_ ?21:26
sladenhandling money as-agent is a major hassle21:26
DPicokay everyone, here's my idea21:26
Noyasladen: I don21:26
Noyat think so, if you do it transparently21:26
DPicwe implement an ubunt-specific list of FOSS games21:27
DPicwe can rank my popularity21:27
DPicor whatever21:27
DPiceach will have a link to contribute, and all the possible ways to contribute will be listed21:27
DPicif their site has a donate link21:27
DPicwe'll direct users there for monetary contributions21:27
DPicbasically, planning isn't realyl worth it yet though because we need a website first21:28
DPicso we'll put a website on our list of action items21:28
NoyaDPic: well, let me make another proposal21:28
NoyaDPic: people can donate money to the foss-gaming-site21:29
sladenyou can publicise the fact that "Helen, one of the Foobaruluma Zero car racing SIM developers is after a Wii-mote Car driving wheel to try and improve the bluetooth driving wheel support.  It's going to cost $150US, offers/donations welcomed"  (eg. specific project, specific person, specific reason, specific destination)21:29
NoyaDPic: the money goes into a pot, and how much money is in the pot is visible to everyone21:29
DPicNoya, it's much harder to do that way. handling money is a hard task21:29
DPicNoya, if we get to a point where we have the resources21:29
DPici'm all for it21:29
DPicbut it's not easy to do off the bat like this21:29
DPiclong term, we can aim  for that21:29
NoyaDPic: well, but a site with links to games you can donate too, I don't get the point of it21:29
KhaaL...if there only were a opensource competetor to paypal...21:30
NoyaDPic: I guess people wont notice the site, as it looks like an assembly21:30
NoyaDPic: with a pot you could motivate and advertise with something like "support the floss game scene"21:31
NoyaDPic: so people could donate to floss games in general, and not to a specific game, what they could do now anyway21:31
DPicNoya, it's better, but this still does the job. we simply don't have the resources right now..21:31
Noyathat's the way opengameart works, and it seems it works quite well21:31
NoyaDPic: right, just wanted to complete here ;)21:31
DPichaha ok21:32
DPicnext up, tournaments and matches21:32
NoyaDPic: maybe this could be another working group, and maybe we find someone who has time to manage an account for the money... just lets see21:32
Noya(I'm silent now)21:32
DPicNoya, we'd have to figure out the legalities ofthat21:32
DPicKhaaL, did oyu also suggest tournaments and matches?21:33
KhaaLregarding earlier topic , we can do it simple like, once the clan is challenged/challenging in a specific game, they (the members) make a small donation to that game21:33
KhaaLDPic, indeed21:33
DPichow should that be organized?21:33
KhaaLOnce we'd have our own clan up and running, we could, like i mentioned before, to challenge gamers in fedora, slackware, opensuse etc in certain games21:34
DPicsounds good21:34
KhaaLwe'd only need a neutral observer or a clanladder for those kind of games21:34
KhaaL(maybe we can ask FSF for sponsorship for this?)21:34
DPicbut basically we just have to set up the clan first21:34
DPicKhaaL, that would be cool21:34
KhaaLso its something that we'll have to organize, once the clan is up and stable21:35
DPicand other project ideas?21:35
KhaaLi thought of something21:35
KhaaLI just realized how hard it was to buy a joypad that works OOTB for ubuntu!21:36
DPicso what is the proposal?21:36
KhaaLmaybe we can encourage gamers to contribute to a gaming hardware compatibility wiki page?21:36
DPicah, not a bad idea21:36
KhaaLfor gamepads, joysticks etc21:36
sakurambooKhaaL: Super Dual Box Pro w/ PS2 controller21:36
sakurambooKhaaL: or, Logitech Wingman21:37
KhaaLsakuramboo, i'll have to look at them tomorrow :]21:37
KhaaLi bought a saitek wich is an effetive brick21:37
DPici'll add that to our action list21:37
DPicany other ideas?21:37
Noyaso, does the ubuntu game night offer torunaments?21:37
KhaaLNoya, not atm, they only play casually once a week21:38
sakurambooi got one21:38
Noyawouldn't it be great to have tournaments once in a week or every two weeks?21:38
KhaaLNoya, it would! but we need a clan going and organised :)21:39
sakuramboowhat about getting in touch with the quakecon guys to getting a table or something21:39
NoyaKhaaL: well no, actually something like a ubuntu game night, without a clan21:39
sakurambooshowing off games like open arena and nexuiz, and also informing everyone that the quake series plays natively in linux, too21:39
DPicsakuramboo, that's a great idea!21:39
NoyaKhaaL: ubuntu tournament night ;)21:39
DPicwhen is it?21:39
Noyasakuramboo: cool21:39
KhaaLNoya, you mean not as a team event?21:40
KhaaLbut as a "lone-soldier event?21:40
NoyaKhaaL: right, more like a regular event, where people can play 1on1 or 2on221:40
NoyaKhaaL: armagetron tournaments for example21:40
DPicsakuramboo, when is itt?21:40
DPicand where?21:40
KhaaLNoya, cool - me like!21:40
sakurambooDPic: QuakeCon is aug 13-16, 200921:41
Noyathere could even be tournaments that last one or two weeks21:41
DPicNoya, that's what i was thinking as far as tourny's and matches go, it's organizing that's the question21:41
DPichow do we organize21:41
DPicsakuramboo, that's soon21:41
Noyaa tournament match is scheduled from monday to wednesday for example, and the two opponents could agree on a time for playing21:41
sakurambooDPic: yeah, its soon, so not doing it this year is fine, but its something we can shoot for next year21:42
DPicsakuramboo, absolutely21:42
Noyathis is going on for the whole week21:42
DPicgreat idea21:42
DPicany other conventions people know of?21:42
Noyaand on sunday at 18utc there is the final21:42
sakuramboobut, it also doesnt have to be just with quakecon, but other gaming conventions, too21:42
KhaaLthere is one problem though, how do we solve the ping issue once a US gamer wants to go against a EU gamer?21:42
Noyapeople who dont attend to a match are disqualified :)21:42
sakurambooKhaaL: need to talk to nuxified.com (i think, might be org)21:43
sakurambooKhaaL: last year, they had an online tournament that seemed to go rather well21:43
KhaaLsakuramboo, they are the ping gods?21:43
DPicalright i's almost time to close up the meeting21:43
DPicwe have some closing topics first21:43
sakurambooKhaaL: no, but, they did it and could give tips21:43
NoyaKhaaL: lets get back on this later then...21:44
NoyaDPic: go on :)21:44
DPicfuture meetings: how often?21:44
KhaaLoften now in the beginning21:44
sakurambooi think once a season would be good21:44
KhaaLto have follow ups and such21:45
DPici think we need a follow up to this meeting fairly soon21:46
DPicin am month or two21:46
DPicbecause we have a lot to get done21:46
DPicand a lot of jobs to assign21:46
KhaaLi agree21:46
DPicand interest dies down when meetings don't stay regular21:46
DPici'm thinking once or twice a month is better21:46
NoyaDPic: once a month, and adjustable with variing topics?21:46
DPicon the 4th sunday of each month?21:47
sladenbag your spot21:47
KhaaLsame time?21:47
sakuramboothat sounds good21:47
DPicnow, jobs21:48
DPicKhaaL, you will lead the ideas you suggested?21:48
sladenI reckon something you should aim to do is organise a computer with a gamingin setup for Ubuntu prescenes at Expos21:48
DPicgaming clan and tournaments/matches?21:48
DPicsladen, another good idea. we'll have to talk about conventiones next month21:49
sladeneg. FlightGear, TuxRacer, or a TrainSim, or something people can gather around and watch and a get hooked/drawn-in/have a go21:49
KhaaLDPic, I can go for the clan but I'd like to have assistance since I'm startnig a fulltime job and will have a woman moving in fairly soon, so my spare time might get butchered21:50
DPicKhaaL, congrats on the misses xD21:50
DPicwho's willing to help?21:50
KhaaLhaha, thanks :-]21:50
NoyaKhaaL: ;)21:50
KhaaLi can see other distros if they're intrested in mustering up gamers and have a go at us. and see how FSF might be intrested21:51
DPicKhaaL, yes, and email the list as well21:51
KhaaLDPic, our list?21:51
DPicyeah to find help organizing the clan and stuff21:52
KhaaLwill do21:52
DPicis anyone willing to help me manage meetings?21:52
DPicjob includes: creating agendas, writing follow ups from readin the logs, creating actions items21:52
sakurambooi think next month we should divy up the jobs, wait to see who the actual regulars are21:53
DPicit's not a very interesting job, but it's a bit big for me alone21:53
NoyaDPic: sorry, I'd love to help, but I'm busy working on glou21:53
DPicNoya, that's okay. thanks anyways21:53
sakuramboobecause, i know there was one or two people that wanted to make this meeting, but couldnt21:53
DPicsakuramboo, maybe you're right21:53
DPicsakuramboo, did debconf get in their way?21:54
sakuramboono, i know the goat guy wanted to make it, but hes on a plain right now21:54
KhaaL"goat guy"21:55
sakurambootheamericangoat, i think21:55
KhaaLah, well i got a very hilarious image in my head :D21:55
DPicsakuramboo, theancientgoat21:55
DPicKhaaL, hilarious or disgusting?21:55
sakuramboooh, okay, DPic, can we hostname ban that depressed kid?21:56
DPicsakuramboo, what kinds of things was he saying?21:56
DPicis he a troll?21:56
KhaaLits was hilarious, i wasnt thinking of THAT goat :]21:56
DPicKhaaL, haha just making sure21:56
sakurambootrolling and the first time i saw him, he connected with two accounts and the other account, he started flooding my PM wanting to cyber me21:56
DPicah, sounds like it's time to pull out the b&hammer21:57
DPicsomebody else actually registered #ubuntu-gaming21:57
sakurambooaight, dinner time for me, ill be around21:58
DPici'm an irc failure so i don't know how to do that, but i agree he should be banned21:58
DPicalright everyone, thank you so much for coming21:59
DPicKhaaL, yes?21:59
DPici'll be posting a meeting summary on the minutes page (where the agenda is currently)21:59
DPicit should be up within a few days21:59
DPicour next meeting will be next month on the 4th sunday22:00
DPicsame time22:00
KhaaLcould you get the meetings and events in a public google calendar ?22:00
DPicKhaaL, they are =]22:00
DPicKhaaL, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam/Meetings22:00
Noyachristoph_debian: on schedule as always ;)22:00
KhaaLoh, they're just hiding from me then22:00
DPicyou can subscribe to our calendar there22:00
KhaaLw00t! awesome!22:01
DPicthank you everyone!! this meeting has gone on strong for TWO FULL HOURS!22:01
DPicany last words?22:01
KhaaLlong live the penguin!@#22:02
DPiclong live the penguin!22:02
KhaaLthanks for hosting the meeting :)22:02
DPici hearby declare this meeting concluded!22:02
NoyaKhaaL: so22:03
christoph_debianNoya, :)22:03
NoyaKhaaL: do you any site that hosts regular tournaments?22:03
KhaaLNoya, no not really, i have been avoiding competetive gameplay last few years22:03
NoyaKhaaL: well, me too, but mostly due to a lack of tournament sites I know22:04
KhaaLyou have any in mind?22:04
NoyaKhaaL: nope, that's the problem22:04
NoyaI know those big tournaments where the "pros" play against each other22:04
KhaaLhmmm, we might ask for that on the list - maybe there is one under a rock we havent looked under...22:05
KhaaLlike clanladder?22:05
NoyaKhaaL: right22:05
NoyaKhaaL: but I think there could be some interest in a tournament site that is for casual players also22:05
Noyayou know you have time next week, so you join a tournament with people that match your skill22:05
Noyathat would be ideal imho22:06
KhaaLi think that sounds awesome!22:06
Noyaand the games could be games like teeworlds or armagetron22:06
KhaaLbut that would require the games to keep track of stats22:06
KhaaLsuck as kills per minute or such22:06
NoyaKhaaL: yeah, that basically is what we want to do with the glou project22:06
KhaaLin order to get matched to others in the same skill22:06
KhaaLoh? tell me about the glou :)22:07
ZarelAww, man, I missed the rest of the meeting.22:07
NoyaKhaaL: for the beginning I think a simple webpage with tournaments for different games would suffic22:07
NoyaKhaaL: well you know steam?22:08
NoyaKhaaL: or xbox live22:08
NoyaKhaaL: glou is essentialy the open source counterpart22:08
KhaaLohhh, thats awesome22:08
DPicdid the logging bot just show up after the meeting ended?22:08
KhaaLhow's implementing it in games? because different games in different languages will requier different type or libraries22:09
NoyaKhaaL: we develop an open protocol used for server listing and player stats22:09
KhaaLDPic, is Zarel the logging bot? :p22:09
NoyaKhaaL: and a reference c library that can be used22:09
NoyaKhaaL: and bindings for this library22:09
NoyaKhaaL: http://glou.sourceforge.net/22:09
KhaaLNoya, sounds great in my ears. its just convincing the existing developers to adopt the idea22:10
ZarelOr was DPic kidding when he declared the meeting concluded?22:10
ZarelDon't do that to me, man! D:22:10
NoyaKhaaL: well, the project started on the mailinglist of open source games22:10
NoyaKhaaL: this was four months ago, I invited the game developers of the major open source games to discuss the idea22:10
NoyaKhaaL: we should have developers from the top 15 open source games on the list or in our irc channel22:11
DPicKhaaL, Zarel, ubottu joined after the meeting ended22:11
Noyaarmagetron, and wesnoth, and the open source shooters ;)22:11
DPicis that the logging bot?22:11
KhaaLNoya, sounds like a good idea22:11
KhaaLNoya, thought its a major undertakement22:11
KhaaLeven to find a time that will suit them all22:11
ZarelNoya: Is there a list of top 15 open source games or something?22:12
NoyaZarel: nope, I had to contact every single project22:12
ZarelThat doesn't sound like a very impartial list.22:12
NoyaZarel: I wrote quite a large proposal for the idea to convince them to join the discussion22:12
NoyaZarel: well, the are now on the glou-mailinglist, if you mean that22:13
KhaaLNoya, how did the discussion go?22:13
ZarelAre you sure you invited the _right_ 15 projects? ;)22:13
NoyaZarel: have a look at the link I posted22:13
NoyaZarel: under development/projects there is a list of projects we contacted22:13
NoyaZarel: yes, glou22:13
ZarelYou'll have to give me a minute; my ISP is incompatible with the Internet.22:14
NoyaKhaaL: very well, most people stated that the concept is great, they'll have a look on further development and want to see some code ;)22:14
NoyaZarel: :)22:14
ZarelOh, I remember this!22:14
NoyaZarel: wohoo we are not dead :p22:14
ZarelThis was the one in which one of our developers angrily burst in and demanded to know why we weren't on the list!22:15
NoyaZarel: so, what game are you from? ;)22:15
ZarelThat's what "Contacted us on IRC" refers to. ;)22:15
ZarelBy the way, wz2100.net/contact is a completely dead page.22:16
KhaaLguys, its time for me to crash22:16
ZarelChange the contact information to:22:16
KhaaLNoya, you're on the UG mailing list?22:16
NoyaKhaaL: yes22:16
KhaaLgreat :)22:17
NoyaKhaaL: I'd suppose we should talk again about the tournaments... how about you send a mail on the list describing a bit the situation, and I'll join the discussion there22:17
Noyaokay people, I'm leaving22:18
Noyaany last questions ;)22:18
KhaaLI'll do that, expect mailspam from me in the nearby future22:18
NoyaZarel: I'll update the info, thanks22:18
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Noya/Ã/window 1723:22
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