[14:31] <anux> low hggdh
[23:01] <pleia2> ok folks, time for the Ubuntu Community Learning Team meeting :)
[23:02] <bodhi_zazen> yea
[23:02] <bodhi_zazen> who is here ?
[23:02] <pleia2> the Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
[23:02] <bodhi_zazen> are you willing to chair pleia2 ?
[23:02]  * DougieRichardson waves
[23:02] <popey> o/
[23:02] <pleia2> sure, but I don't know how to use MootBot :)
[23:03] <pleia2> hehe
[23:03] <popey> #startmeeting
[23:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is popey.
[23:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:03] <popey> #endmeeting
[23:03] <bodhi_zazen> Want to learn fast ?
[23:03] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:03.
[23:03] <popey> like that
[23:03] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[23:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is pleia2.
[23:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:03] <pleia2> ok, I will try ;)
[23:04] <pleia2> doctormo said he'd be here, so hopefully he'll turn up
[23:04] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
[23:04] <pleia2> cprofitt is still on vacation I think
[23:04] <pleia2> Vantrax might just not be awake yet
[23:04] <pleia2> but I think we can get started with discussion anyway
[23:04] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure
[23:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> \o/ pleia2
[23:05] <pleia2> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure
[23:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure
[23:05] <pleia2> ok, so this is the awesome document that bodhi_zazen took the time to write up
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> I put up some general ideas and would like some feedback / suggestions
[23:06] <bodhi_zazen> preferably on wiki so people who are not at this meeting can be involved
[23:06] <popey> shall we break it down point by point?
[23:06] <pleia2> popey: yeah, I think so
[23:06] <bodhi_zazen> any way you all like =)
[23:06] <pleia2> so lets do this with topic
[23:06] <pleia2> initial considerations
[23:07] <pleia2> I agree that we should track membership with launchpad
[23:07] <popey> indeed
[23:07] <popey> that makes total sense
[23:07] <pleia2> the page also suggests yearly renewals
[23:07] <pleia2> I know the ubuntumembers team allows self renewals, is that an option in LP?
[23:07] <popey> most other teams are two-years
[23:08] <popey> it is, yes pleia2
[23:08] <bodhi_zazen> yes pleia2
[23:08] <pleia2> I think once someone is accepted we should allow them to renew themselves, instead of going through a process
[23:08] <popey> agreed
[23:08] <bodhi_zazen> 2 years is a long time for a young team =)
[23:08] <popey> yeah
[23:08] <bodhi_zazen> that is how it works pleia2
[23:08] <pleia2> yeah, so maybe we start with 1 and revisit it later
[23:09] <popey> I'm happy either way. I see no reason not to use 1 year
[23:09] <bodhi_zazen> And if somebody goes mia, and their membership expires, that is a reason to send out an email or memo
[23:09] <popey> i think you'd know they were AWOL before their membership expired
[23:09] <bodhi_zazen> Is it OK if I edit these comments into the wiki page as we talk ?
[23:09] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: oh, I just made an edit :) but sure - go for it
[23:10] <pleia2> ok
[23:10] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure: General Membership
[23:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure: General Membership
[23:10] <popey> bodhi_zazen: might be easier at the end?
[23:10] <bodhi_zazen> popey: I can edit as we go =)
[23:10] <pleia2> so this is the next part of the wiki page
[23:10] <bodhi_zazen> then it will be done
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> one advantage of not chairing
[23:11] <pleia2> I'm always torn whether to have an Open or Moderated team for the general membership :)
[23:11] <popey> I agree that either open or moderated, not restricted
[23:12] <pleia2> maybe do Moderated, with very basic requirements for membership? I don't want people to feel like they need to jump through hoops to get involved
[23:12] <DougieRichardson> 99999997oipk[]]#
[23:12] <pleia2> hello DougieRichardson's cat!
[23:13]  * DougieRichardson got a new kitten - its nosey
[23:13] <pleia2> :)
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> what are the minimal requirements pleia2 ?
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> do we want a signed CoC on LP for example ?
[23:13] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: I liked your meet&greet, sign CoC
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> anything more then a meet & greet ?
[23:14] <pleia2> maybe we can put forward requirements for the "meet & greet" though, like having people introduce themselves and give us an idea of their skills and goals
[23:14] <bodhi_zazen> Who and how will membership be determined beyond that ?
[23:14] <pleia2> I've found that knowing the skills that people have goes a long way to making a team work - even if they wander off, I still have their skill list and can email them and say "hey, something came up and we need you!"
[23:15] <pleia2> I think we pretty much accept anyone who does that step
[23:16] <bodhi_zazen> Introduce yourself to the team and give us an idea of your interests, skills, and how you see yourself working with the team.
[23:16] <bodhi_zazen> How is that for now ?
[23:16] <popey> i do have one concern though
[23:16] <pleia2> popey: sure
[23:16] <popey> there was one team that used to vet their members and it ended up with people not being let in because one person didn't like the look of them
[23:16] <bodhi_zazen> I would suggest a signed CoC, as we will be holding members to those rules =)
[23:16] <popey> I worry that this can happen with moderated teams
[23:17] <popey> i would just like to be sure that we are a welcoming team primarily
[23:17] <bodhi_zazen> +1 popey , but really that is unlikely here as I do not think any of the leaders wants that to happen
[23:17] <DougieRichardson> Conversely open teams are susceptible to spam accounts
[23:17] <popey> of course DougieRichardson
[23:17] <bodhi_zazen> spam and "bad behavior"
[23:17] <popey> and idlers :)
[23:18] <popey> I am a member of some teams I have not done anything in/for
[23:18] <DougieRichardson> and bragging right collectors
[23:18] <popey> I'm sure a lot of others are too
[23:18] <pleia2> so I think we want to never "reject" people, they sit in the moderation queue until they follow the meet-n-greet directions that will be clearly spelled out on the LP page
[23:18] <popey> yes
[23:18] <popey> ok, so long as we dont keep people waiting
[23:18] <pleia2> for now, I think the 5 team board members will be admins, we're all pretty active
[23:19] <bodhi_zazen> Should we vote on moderated vs open ?
[23:19] <popey> i agree moderated is the way to go
[23:19] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: I think we want to wait on votes until next meeting
[23:20] <bodhi_zazen> OK
[23:20] <popey> just so long as we are vigilant not to lose potentially keen people or become to harsh not to let people in
[23:20] <pleia2> this meeting we should just iron out what we want to do, give others opportunity to weigh in (since 3/5 of board are missing)
[23:20] <pleia2> popey: agreed
[23:20] <pleia2> ok, so we also need to decide *how* this meet-n-greet takes place
[23:20] <DougieRichardson> with five admins that shouldn't be an issue - you're going to notice if someone keeps rejecting members.
[23:20] <pleia2> I don't want to ask people to mail the mailing list, that's a bit intimidating, archived in mailman forever :)
[23:21] <pleia2> some people are a bit irc-shy
[23:21] <pleia2> so maybe do something like: introduce yourself on list, in IRC, or to the board members whose email addresses are...
[23:21] <bodhi_zazen> no pleia2 I think keep it as general as possible =)
[23:22] <DougieRichardson> I'd say mailing list intro
[23:22] <bodhi_zazen> I like IRC, give a chance to really interact =)
[23:22] <pleia2> introducing myself on a mailing list is scary :)
[23:22] <popey> I'd say offer them choices
[23:22] <popey> irc happy people can do so via irc
[23:22] <DougieRichardson> it works fine on most teams, it would also assist in avoiding popey's scenario because team members can see the intro and whether they were accepted
[23:22] <bodhi_zazen> I am OK with mailing list or other means, we could start a forums thread for example =)
[23:22] <popey> mailing list people can do so via mail
[23:23] <DougieRichardson> ml that is
[23:23] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: we don't have a forum!
[23:23] <pleia2> do we? hehe
[23:23] <bodhi_zazen> I am fairly sure we could make at least a sticky on the Ubuntu forums =)
[23:24] <pleia2> ah, value of a forum is something to consider
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> If you would like a specific sub section I can put in a request, although to be honest such things tend not to be used much
[23:24] <pleia2> yeah
[23:25]  * pleia2 makes note of DougieRichardson's comments
[23:25] <pleia2> good point, something to consider
[23:25] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure: Roles
[23:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure: Roles
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> wait please =)
[23:26] <pleia2> oh sorry :)
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> what about signed CoC ?
[23:26] <pleia2> yeah, we should require that
[23:27] <pleia2> and be ready to help anyone with gpg who wants to sign it
[23:27] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:28] <bodhi_zazen> can add a link to the final wiki page
[23:28] <bodhi_zazen> and help on irc
[23:28]  * pleia2 nods
[23:28] <bodhi_zazen> what about the process, how are new members approved ?
[23:28] <bodhi_zazen> or do you want to defer that discussion ?
[23:28] <pleia2> defer, I think
[23:29] <bodhi_zazen> thank yoo
[23:29] <pleia2> I'd like to get some other thoughts on this
[23:29] <pleia2> ok, so Roles?
[23:29] <bodhi_zazen> I think that covers general membership
[23:29] <pleia2> great
[23:30] <pleia2> ok, so I'm wondering the value of creating sub-teams for Roles
[23:30] <bodhi_zazen> yea, sub teams have advantages and disadvantages
[23:30] <bodhi_zazen> Once (if) this team grows it is bound to happen though pleia2
[23:31] <pleia2> I tend to prefer having a wiki page showing who is doing what, rather than LP tracking it, unless the LP resources are actually useful in some way to the specific subteam, and not of use to the whole team
[23:31] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:31] <bodhi_zazen> LP is overkill unless the sub team grows larger then life
[23:31]  * pleia2 nods
[23:32] <bodhi_zazen> I think all we can do today is discuss very general things
[23:32] <pleia2> as for the roles themselves, if we're not tracking them in LP I'm not sure how important it is putting people into "teacher" "admin" etc categories is
[23:32] <bodhi_zazen> minimal time commitments I think would help
[23:32] <bodhi_zazen> and I think signing teh leadership Coc
[23:32] <pleia2> like, if you want to be a website admin, please have an hour or so per week you can devote?
[23:33] <pleia2> is there a way to sign the leadership coc?
[23:33] <bodhi_zazen> Other then that we need to wait as roles are not defined yet, that should be the next step, and I know there are many ideas on this topic
[23:33] <pleia2> yeah
[23:33] <bodhi_zazen> not yet pleia2 , but my understanding is there will be a way to track it in LP soon
[23:33] <pleia2> cool
[23:33] <pleia2> so I think the board certainly should be required to sign the leadership coc
[23:34] <pleia2> so for roles, I think it depends upon their "leadershipness" within the team
[23:35] <pleia2> but I think that's as far as we can get on this now
[23:35] <pleia2> we might even shelve this bit until the project is rolling more and we start needing to define separate parts of the project
[23:36] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: anything to add before we move on?
[23:36] <bodhi_zazen> Ok, as a small point of order, take a look at the comments I committed to the wiki page =)
[23:37] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure#preview
[23:37] <bodhi_zazen> no pleia2 , thank you
[23:37] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: looks great!
[23:38] <pleia2> ok, shall we quickly discuss moderation?
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> yes
[23:38] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure: Moderation
[23:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure: Moderation
[23:38] <pleia2> now honestly, this is not something I encounter a need for a lot, bodhi_zazen as the beginners team leader I think you do more than I :)
[23:39] <bodhi_zazen> For now we cna simply defer moderation to the board
[23:39] <pleia2> I agree
[23:39] <pleia2> and your comments in this section made a lot of sense - get people to try to resolve it themselves first
[23:39] <bodhi_zazen> I seem to have skills in moderating and am willing to perform this as needed
[23:39] <pleia2> maybe a board member step in and have a private chat with someone if there is a problem
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> I think keep it as general as possible, nothing more then the Coc
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> Over time people may comment on adding this or that
[23:40]  * pleia2 nods
[23:40] <pleia2> and if they don't agree with moderation, I think the typical route of going to the community council is appropriate
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> OK
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> resolve on their own
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> bring to member(s) of the council
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> full council
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> and CC as a last resort ?
[23:41] <pleia2> yeah
[23:42] <pleia2> like in most teams, I don't see it ever getting that far
[23:43] <pleia2> anything else on moderation?
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> no =)
[23:43] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure: Elections
[23:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure: Elections
[23:43] <pleia2> probably need to defer this :)
[23:44] <pleia2> I'd say 2 years, people nominate themselves or others, we do a vote - anyone on team can vote
[23:44] <popey> I'd say initially no need for vote
[23:44] <popey> i think the people have pretty much selfselected
[23:44] <pleia2> well, we have a board right now, which we'll probably keep for a while
[23:45] <pleia2> unless one of us gets a life or something :)
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> I think keep the current structure and set the stage for future
[23:45] <popey> yes
[23:45]  * pleia2 nods
[23:45] <popey> only need for a vote would be if people stand down or people get restless
[23:46] <pleia2> yeah
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> I think it would be good to have 1 member stay 3 years for continuity (if all the positions are vacated or change)
[23:46] <popey> i initiated a vote for leadership in -uk loco not because I didnt want to do it, but because I wanted someone else to have a go
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> well popey I think it is good to change leadership from time to time, give everybody a chance to burn out =)
[23:46] <popey> and I think that is sometimes necessary to "freshen up" a team
[23:46] <popey> heh
[23:46] <popey> spread the burn around :)
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> yep
[23:47] <pleia2> hehe
[23:47] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Team Structure: Additional thoughts?
[23:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure: Additional thoughts?
[23:47] <pleia2> so I think we're going to wrap this up for now
[23:47] <pleia2> additional topics we should explore and add to the wiki?
[23:48] <popey> can i mention one more thing?
[23:48] <popey> the doc team is having a meeting on sunday, and we'll likely be talking about screencats, and the role they have to play in docs, so it might be useful to have someone / multiple people from -learning there.
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:48] <pleia2> oh excellent
[23:49] <pleia2> popey: can you drop a note to the list with the meeting time and that info?
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> I would like to thank you all for discussing this *dry* topic of team structure
[23:49] <Vantrax|Work> hi guys, sorry I missed most of the meeting >.< Had to see a dentist
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> I find it really helps build a team though, gives new members something to consider, make us look cohesive
[23:50] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: thanks for writing up such a great draft! :)
[23:50] <popey> sure pleia2
[23:51] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[23:51] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:51.
[23:51] <pleia2> thanks everyone :)
[23:51]  * DougieRichardson waves goodnight
[23:51] <pleia2> night!
[23:52] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure#preview
[23:52] <popey> o/
[23:52] <bodhi_zazen> yes popey ?
[23:53] <popey> that was a wave :)
[23:53] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[23:53]  * DougieRichardson waves night