[00:01] Is anybody interested in helping to port the fedora's "user manager" python-based tool to ubuntu? http://www.techotopia.com/index.php/Managing_Fedora_Linux_Users_and_Groups [00:08] alkisg: do you think the Fedora app would be pretty close to ideal for educational setting? [00:08] LaserJock: not really, it would need a lot of plugins to work for most educational setups [00:09] But it's the best "base" I've seen so far... [00:09] E.g. a lot of import/export plugins (csv, ldap, other passwd/group files...) [00:10] do you know if the Fedora app has a plugin framework? [00:10] No, I don't know. I should probably be saying "fork", not "port" here :) [00:10] alkisg: last I heard, if it's akin to RH's 'system-config-users' tool...it would be easier to make a new one than to port the existing code [00:10] Because all the backend is fedora specific afaik [00:11] Lns: well, why not reuse the python front end? Even the dialog manipulation code is something to start with... [00:11] I'm just wondering if the UI, etc. would be suitable [00:11] You guys need to see this =) A shirt I had made by a local shirt shop in the same building as my office :) http://logicalnetworking.net/other/school-oss-shirt-back.jpg -and- http://logicalnetworking.net/other/school-oss-shirt-front.jpg [00:11] The UI looks very suitable to me [00:11] is it generally how you envision a user management app? [00:12] alkisg: anything is better than gnome's users-admin ;) [00:12] Lns: nice [00:12] LaserJock: here's a screenshot of what I came up while thinking on how to design a user manager tool - and then I saw fedora's tool and that was pretty much what I had in mind... http://users.sch.gr/alkisg/temp/users-manager.png [00:13] Lns, they're pretty :) [00:13] I was just wondering if there was some slick way we could present the UI [00:13] that would be more usable than the traditional flat list [00:14] I was thinking edit => apply filter for that [00:14] E.g. filter out some users based on whatever criteria are needed [00:14] well [00:14] hi [00:14] but just wondering a little more "out of the box" [00:15] the most sensible imho would be by class, but in higher grades you only have a 'home class' so it might be moot [00:15] class as in classroom [00:15] you could, for instance in a school, have a classroom or school layout [00:15] that lets you clock on the room or grade [00:15] *click [00:15] If the teacher can save a selection, then he can easily select anything he wants... [00:16] filter by group would be best i think...groups can take care of however people want to do it [00:16] but a flat list of users is still the best you think? [00:16] Yes, it's easier for the teacher to visualize / use it [00:17] LaserJock: i think choice is the key thing here [00:17] well, yes [00:17] but we can't give infinite choice [00:17] Most teachers I now never use Active Directory because it's complicated... We need something simple :) [00:17] how about expansions by group? like those little arrow > and downward by group [00:17] *know [00:17] I'm just wondering if from a usability perspective if flat lists are the most usable UI for the task [00:17] they very well could be [00:17] I'm not a teacher [00:17] LaserJock: search functionality is required for flat lists [00:18] which users-admin doesn't have...and i seriously can't believe that [00:18] I'm just imagining an overgrown "select users by..." dialog to make user-selection easier. Other than that, flat looks like the best choice for me. [00:18] users-admin was made for "typical" use were you have maybe < 3 regular users and systems stuff [00:19] so flat list that is 1) filterable 2) searchable 3) sortable [00:19] alkisg: maybe some sort of meta-group functionality specific to schools...but again, you get into so many different types of schools it might be too hard to try and cover it all [00:20] groups, to me, always seem like the sensible choice. you can have a group for anything. [00:20] Lns, not really, there are only a few fields in a user, so you can actually cover them alll [00:20] Lns: perhaps tags? [00:20] ooo good idea LaserJock [00:20] because the regular system groups is very machine oriented [00:20] LaserJock: right but you can really use them for anything [00:20] what you want is to be able to arbitrarily tag without it screwing everything up [00:20] what would adding people to groups screw up? [00:21] How is a tag different from defining a new group? [00:21] well [00:21] in my world groups == permissions [00:21] LaserJock: would be good to have groups and users that have not much to do with the system [00:22] I'd like to put in my 2 cents at the risk of looking foolish... [00:22] like with email. all users are in database (ldap) and the actual software is run by the mail daemon [00:22] dgroos: i'm the only fool in here =p [00:22] :) [00:22] if we start pushing more group-driven stuff then a bunch of arbitrary system groups might get messy [00:22] LaserJock: not if they're sortable/searchable/filterable ;) [00:22] i think the groups should have nothing to do with systyem groups [00:23] whereas if we let teachers do tagging that is only used within the context of the UI then you can help increase usability without a lot of backend mess [00:23] I'd like to see a list of groups in 1 column, and if I clicked on a group, it would show all present users in the next column. [00:23] dgroos: yeah, I like that very much [00:23] me to [00:23] too [00:23] Also, I'd like a way to not show the 'nobody' etc groups that I don't need. [00:24] easily doable, yep [00:24] Also, I'd like to be able to click on 'level1' group, for example, and then be able to 'drag and drop' them into 'level2' group. [00:24] the level itself or the users within the group? [00:24] dgroos: what if you right clicked on a group, and this popped up a menu with items like "select users from this group", "add users from this group to the currently selected users", "remove users from this group from the current selection" etc? [00:24] Wouln't that be more powerful? [00:25] Also, I'd like to be able to delete users from this interface. [00:25] (and simpler both in programming and in visualizing it?) [00:25] alkisg: I kind of find the 2nd and 3rd thing you had confusing [00:26] I can see "select users from this group", but I'm not sure about the others [00:26] I wonder if you could have a basic cut-n-paste on users :-) [00:26] hmm... I'm thinking the 'physical desk with slips of paper' metaphor is easier than the heirarchical, right-click and select options--for us gui-types that is. [00:26] "Drill down groups" might be a useful term [00:26] LaserJock: suppose you want to select class A and class B, how would you do it? [00:26] also, the interface shoudl be web based [00:26] i think [00:26] easier to make [00:27] why? [00:27] and remotable [00:27] ace_suares: easy to do with a properly coded backend [00:27] hmm [00:27] it should be portable I think [00:27] cool idea to make it web-based. A plugin with webmin? [00:27] webmin...gross =) [00:27] * LaserJock chokes to death in the corner [00:27] web doesn't support dragging, right clicking, list sorting etc. It *shouldn't* be web-based. That's webmin's area :) [00:27] very :) [00:28] (unless someone wants to use yui or another library which would make the browser crawl with 100 users...) [00:28] I honestly think eDirectory/LDAP/AD should be paid attention to...they're tried and true topologies for stuff like this [00:28] Sorry i am just falling into the discussion and have no time to follow it trough now but for me it's the thing most prominently missing from all my dealings with ltsp/edubuntu and i've been thinking a lot about it. Really like to have something to hold on to in the wiki or somewhere else. I'll dig the irc logs but if someone has time to summarize the disc and put it on the list or so i'd be very happy [00:28] bye for now [00:28] good discussion!!! [00:29] alkisg: hm you are a bit outdated drop and drag all very well doable with prototype, ruby on raisl etc [00:29] adios ace_suares [00:29] ace_suares: ever actually tried that with 100 rows? [00:30] I did. It's not usable. :) [00:30] yeah..and try it on a thin client ;) [00:30] Flash is a little better, but again, not usable. [00:30] well, I don't really see any reason for a web interface at the present time [00:30] but if this thing has plugins it could grow that feature I suppose [00:31] doesn't have to run on a thin client--can always use NX to go to the server. [00:31] Sure, if the back-end is cleanly seperated there shouldn't be any problem in a different front-end [00:31] how about a well specced ldap setup then.... [00:32] what about schools that aren't using LTSP or thin clients? [00:32] that's really what we're talking about [00:32] I don't think this tool would have anything ltsp specific in it... [00:32] right [00:33] I think ltsp is the wave of the near future--if I have anything to do with it. It's starting to come of age... [00:33] so there's basically 3 classes of user management, as I understand it [00:33] 1) "normal" few users 2) mass users on same machine 3) LDAP [00:33] Why are these different? [00:34] It's just different back-end-plugins... [00:34] I'm saying different classes [00:34] All using the same UI and the rest-of-the-plugins... [00:34] i.e. different use cases [00:34] what I'm trying to get at is some general design goals [00:34] ok [00:35] so the UI should be able to handle all 3 of those use cases well, right? [00:35] Right [00:35] yup [00:35] so we don't want it so overkill that the person that just has a couple users is frightened away [00:36] LaserJock: plugins :) [00:36] but we need it usable for the admin who's trying to manage 200 students [00:36] dgroos is eating dinner but will be back... [00:36] I think this UI is just fine - just with lots more menus for plugins, selections etc: http://www.techotopia.com/index.php/Managing_Fedora_Linux_Users_and_Groups [00:37] well, "plugins" is easy to throw out there, but in terms of actually coding the thing I think it's not so easy [00:38] * alkisg thinks the first implementation will be necessarily thrown away after 1-2 years and reimplemented from scratch :) [00:38] that may be [00:38] but it'd be nice for it to be adoptable in the mean time [00:38] so the steps would be [00:38] Sure [00:39] 1) do user and group addition, modification, and removal via python [00:39] 2) get a UI that similar to Fedora's and users-admin [00:39] 3) make it do LDAP [00:40] +1 [00:41] and if it can be done via python modules at some point I can build my Edubuntu Control Panel :-) [00:41] python really seems to be the way to go! [00:41] i'm outtie..need to go home and eat! [00:41] *cheers* [00:43] +1 for LDAp [00:43] i want a t-shirt like lns has [00:44] somebody *has* to get this written up as a spec [00:44] we keep rehashing [00:45] actually, this is how gramps filters out people. apply a filter and find any people of a certain gender with the first name of Ahmuck [00:45] man, the user interface of fedora is same old same old [00:45] LaserJock: I am with you on the control panel -in the future :-) [00:46] explain one day when you have time why 'users' have to be tied in to the system [00:46] I think 'users' are soemthing that shoudl eb totally decouple from the OS [00:46] permissions [00:46] and strongly couple to some interface that tells all kinds of apps what to do [00:46] that's what it comes down it [00:47] permissions is not a real problem in many use cases [00:47] u could catagorize users by age or grade [00:47] like with email or proftpd [00:47] then you could select certain users [00:47] ace_suares: sure it is, if you let anything do anything on your computer it become quite insecure [00:47] I challenge you to prove that true :-) [00:48] like proftpd depending on WHO logs in, it chooses WHAT is mounted as /home, etc [00:48] ace_suares: ok, install an ssh server and create a user named "test" with the password "test" and leave it hooked up for a week :-) [00:48] so it's the same user that writes to /home/ace as to /home/laserjock [00:49] except that ace can never see /home/laserjock trough the system [00:49] I'm not saying it's the only way to do things [00:49] LaserJock: I am just saying [00:49] but it's the way it's been done for 30+ years and I'm not sure we want to change that :-) [00:49] LaserJock: damn [00:50] LaserJock: that's wht the doctors said to the inventor of peniciline [00:50] yeah, but you gotta choose your battles dude [00:50] LaserJock: okay thanks [00:50] over and out [00:50] we're not very likely to revolutionize user at that level here [00:50] we're just the lowly education people [00:51] bye bye laserjock [00:53] what was ace wanting to do? [00:53] get rid of users/groups as we know them [00:53] so they aren't tied to the system [00:54] oh [00:54] My thinking about user/group management comes from running a Mac server for 4 years in my classroom lan. [00:54] Before inventing a new one, it would be useful to look at what they've got... [00:55] well, Mac OS is essentially the same as Linux in that regard [00:56] LDAP connected with Users and Groups connected with Sabayon. and sharing but I guess that's mainly group membership, not 755 etc management. [00:56] Here's their page: http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/features/client-management.html [00:56] And sorry to leave this chat again, but have apt. to go to :( [00:56] what did he want to replace it with? [00:56] it's been fun :) [00:57] mhall119: like something where /home would be mounted differently based on who logged in [00:57] mhall119: I'm not really sure [00:57] /home or /home/user? [00:57] /home [00:57] so there would be no /home/ [00:57] that makes no sense, what if you had 2 users logged in? [00:57] oh, I think I get it [00:58] ummm, good question [00:58] still, makes no sense [00:58] what benefit did he see in that? [00:59] would each user have a different view of the filesystem? [00:59] k, backreading done [00:59] whew [00:59] that would be confusing [01:00] user management, machine management, app management, group managment (role managment), etc. [01:00] mhall119: I believe he just wants users "decoupled" from the system [01:02] I hope I didn't make him mad anyway [01:02] seems to be difficult for me to do these days :-( [01:03] I'm not sure how you decouple users from a multi-user operating system [01:04] Ahmuck: how would decoupling users accomplish any of that? [01:04] decoupling users? [01:05] yeah [01:10] from the old unix way? [01:18] yeah [01:29] musta mis understood something i said [01:29] somewhere [01:32] mhall119: I don't think Ahmuck was taking about ace's thing [01:33] oh, ok [02:39] anybody seen tuxmathscrabble? [02:50] Ahmuck: I haven't, is it what it sounds like? [02:52] yep. just saw it [02:55] i'm out. neeeeeeed sleep [04:17] night all. sleepy time. [04:59] it appears landscape is pay software? [05:02] sure [05:02] that's one way Canonical tries to pay for Ubuntu [05:04] # Every computer user should have the freedom to download, run, copy, distribute, study, share, change and improve their software for any purpose, without paying licensing fees. [05:04] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy [05:04] right [05:04] doesn't this violate their own policy? [05:04] no [05:04] that's Ubuntu's philosophy [05:04] ah, yes, tricky [05:05] Canonical is selling an add-on service [05:05] my apologies [05:05] no problem [05:05] the relationship is not always very clear [05:06] I believe the Landscape client and free/open source software [05:06] and is installed in Ubuntu [05:06] it's just the service that costs money [05:08] canonical owns edubuntu? [05:08] hmmm, tricky question [05:08] they own the trademark [05:08] and they support it [05:08] they support it? [05:09] 1) you can by commercial support for it from Canonical 2) they provide infrastructure used to develop it [05:10] k. i noticed on an e-mail that came through about "vetting" and having to ask this boss and that boss [05:10] but the "support" is somewhat limited in that they don't pay anybody to work on it, etc. [05:10] oh, right [05:10] which caused me to wonder again, is edubuntu really free [05:10] that was for the ubuntu.com website [05:10] which Canonical has control of because they host it [05:11] and the content that was on there was written by Canonical employees [05:11] so it seemed right to ask them about it [05:11] ah, makes sense [05:11] in fact some non-Canonical people work on the website [08:57] Yo [08:58] Do we have a DVD now? [08:59] Svenstaro: yup [09:00] Nice. But does it work and do stuff? [09:01] Sure. It's just the Ubuntu DVD version right now AFAIK :) [09:02] Oh alright. [09:33] highvoltage, did u get a chance to talk to stgraber regarding lbagent? [10:53] nubae: yes, he says it's an upstream bug [10:54] nubae: I think it's best to ping him for a local fix [10:55] well, tried mailing him with no response === hfsdo_ is now known as hfsdo [14:40] morning [16:49] *yawn* ... good morning [17:29] i was reading about tuxsomething and sdl from an e-mail. it suggested using alsa? sdl-alsa? not pulse audio [17:32] I'm not sure ALSA can send sound from the server to the clients [17:33] * Ahmuck is going to try [17:38] hrm, yes, doesn't appear to work [17:39] it appears that people began having problems with sound at 9.04 [17:40] yeah, something changed in SDL in 9.04 I think [17:49] pulseaudio iirc [17:49] k, i'm on alsa, and still having sound issues [17:49] going to ltsp [18:00] Yo LaserJock [18:01] hi [18:11] http://bit.ly/Px0C7 Linked in question about Ubuntu and education [18:16] mhall119|work: I can't view that, what is the question? [18:16] basically asking if Ubuntu is making an impact in educational settings [18:16] I guess you have to have a LinkedIn account to view it [18:18] I do [19:35] Lns: what are you writing a wiki page on? [19:36] LaserJock: I'm writing a wiki page on UbuntuLTSP site [19:36] re: SDL apps [19:36] on all SDL apps or just tuxmath? [19:37] or tux4kids [19:37] Lns: ? [19:37] LaserJock: i verified it fixes tuxpaint/math/type, and circuslinux so far [19:38] at least on my own server [19:38] (*buntu 8.04) [19:38] Lns: and you just have to install libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio ? [19:38] yup [19:38] that's it [19:39] so what if rather than writing a work-around we push a fix? [19:39] sounds better =) [19:39] Lns, is that also present in 9.04? [19:39] no [19:39] well, from what others have stated, they didn't experience the issues in 9.04 [19:40] OK [19:40] not sure about 8.10 [19:40] i have a VM so i can test it [19:40] * alkisg will start sticking to LTS releases in 10.04, not before :) [19:40] good idea =) [19:41] * Lns will too, but probably after about 6 months of the release date of 10.04 ;) [19:41] Heh true [19:41] I hate to do that...but i've done the chasing your tail thing before. Not fun! [19:41] and i have VMs of the more current stuff to test [19:41] well, you can just wait for the .1 point release [19:42] true [19:42] LaserJock: is .1 release on a scheduled basis as well? [19:43] kinda [19:43] I think they give a rough schedule when it's released [19:43] a .1 is usually about a month or so after release I think [19:43] 8.04 is up to .3 [19:43] wow that's sooner than i remember 8.04 [19:43] maybe it was 2 months, I don't remember [19:43] there's a big SRU flood after release [19:44] .1 catches most of them [19:44] yeah [19:44] i can at least do my own office when it comes out to help test [19:44] it's unfortunate that we can't get more pre-release testing [19:44] then push it out to some schools [19:44] I'd be happy to if i could get some specific testing tasks [19:46] LTSP stuff is particularly hard [19:46] for sure [19:46] it's very hard to rely on the general Ubuntu testers for it [19:46] and there are so many different configurations [19:47] I'm going to reboot into the Ibex and test this stuff. BBIAB [20:00] Lns ping [20:02] ace_suares: he's off testing [20:02] LaserJock: cool isn't it, out first little success :-) [20:02] which one? [20:03] I like how lns directly mailed back to the mailinglist. Gives us all a good feeling. And even better he is making a wiki page. [20:04] well, I was hoping he wouldn't need the wiki page [20:04] I'm thinking what we might need to do is some "errata" on edubuntu.org to point to an edubuntu-updates PPA [20:04] Very good idea. I read you are working on it already? [20:05] not at the moment [20:05] but I can add it to the todo list [20:05] kk do I need to find out how to do the PPA thing or ask around on -devel if someone has the time? [20:05] or you can post to the -devel list if you want. [20:06] lets keep things moving [20:06] I can upload the packages without too much of a problem [20:06] ps how was you dissertatin defend? It's to morrow isnt' it ? good luck !!!!!!! [20:06] tomorrow yes [20:06] I'm finishing up my presentation, etc. [20:06] I had hoped that we could get the fix into hardy-updates [20:06] but libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is in Universe [20:06] and so that won't work [20:07] we keep running into that problem :( [20:07] wow man dont get distracted too much :_) we have a solution now so after tomorrow you can make it work [20:07] LaserJock: but we can work around it with PPA and that's good enough. [20:07] even major RAID issues never made it to hardy-updates [20:07] system toally unbootable and that didn't make it [20:07] I'd like to get an edubuntu-updates PPA going anyway [20:08] there is no reason why we should have to do all this via workaround documentation [20:08] Good idea, if you need help, yell. [20:08] if we have a fix, it needs to get to the user [20:08] yeah the PPA is a good thought.. if you can do it, do it please [20:08] hardware stuff like RAID is very tricky [20:08] else let me look for someone to do it [20:08] bye for now! [20:10] stgraber: ping [20:42] would dropping back help me ? [20:44] so, the pulseaudio+sdl issue is fixed in Jaunty? [20:48] mhall119|work: it was reported to not be an issue in Jaunty [20:48] Lns is testing if it happened on Intrepid [20:48] but I think so far it's only confirmed for Hardy [20:48] good to know, since I'm going to be setting up an LTSP lab using Jaunty and running all the tux4kids games [20:48] (10:07:50 μμ) LaserJock: I'd like to get an edubuntu-updates PPA going anyway ==> /me also wishes for this! [20:49] alkisg: what kinds of things would you want in it? [20:49] Updates, the scripts we were talking the other day, some packages not even in universe (e.g. scratch)... [20:54] would you want just bug fixed for updates or newer versions of apps? [20:54] Well, if that wasn't too much trouble, newer versions for selected apps would also be welcome (after the required extensive testing, of course) [20:54] well, let me rephrase a bit, of course people want newer stuff. What I'm wondering is if it'd be more important to have latest versions or bug fixes to existing versions [20:55] E.g. if flash 11 comes out and supports writing utf8 characters, that's a huge improvement, and I'd like that for my lts edubuntu version [20:55] But if ubuntu policy won't allow this to be part of an SRU, the ppa could save us there [20:58] the "the required extensive testing" bit is difficult [20:58] Why? Many packages won't be edubuntu specific, so they can also be tested by the (bigger) ubuntu community [20:59] I'm not saying that we should do all the testing here [20:59] well, because we won't get a whole lot of testing from people [20:59] But flash 11 was out in some ppa, and people tested it, and it worked fine, we could copy it to the edubuntu ppa after 1-2 months of testing... [20:59] well [21:00] but why would we put it in an edubuntu ppa [21:00] the idea would be to not duplicate work [21:00] Because "some ppa" is not reliable, while "edubuntu ppa" is more reliable for a teacher [21:00] hmm [21:00] People can try firefox 3.5 from whatever ppa they want; teachers only want tested stuff [21:01] yeah, but that means we have to support it [21:01] I'm not sure we're ready for something like flash or firefox [21:01] well, I know we aren't [21:01] but you make a decent point about having a single resource [21:01] Those were just examples; decisions could be made seperately for each case... [21:02] E.g. 'yes for scratch, yes for ltsp with ldm-not-hanging-at-logout patch after stgraber's approval, nope for flash' [21:02] How does Edubuntu relate to Debian Edu and KDE Edu? [21:03]