[01:53] <Q-FUNK> elky: Pricey says you're the one I should ask to set my cloak?
[01:56] <elky> Q-FUNK, sec (providing actual URL rather than just username would have been quicker)
[01:58] <elky> Pricey, you still around?
[01:58] <Pricey> elky: yep
[01:58] <elky> go for it.
[01:58] <Pricey> Q-FUNK: all set.
[01:58] <nalioth> Q-FUNK: got an actual URL
[01:58] <nalioth> ahh
[01:59] <elky> nalioth, yeah i know. i had to wait for firfox to boot up then type it in
[01:59] <Q-FUNK> cheers! :)
[14:59] <zj3t3mju> can I take a Ubuntu cloak?
[14:59] <erUSUL> zj3t3mju: are you ubuntu memeber ? launchpad url ?
[14:59] <bazhang> zj3t3mju, are you an ubuntu member
[14:59] <erUSUL> member*
[15:00] <bazhang> !member | zj3t3mju
[15:00] <zj3t3mju> :-/
[15:00] <zj3t3mju> erUSUL: https://edge.launchpad.net/~mr.lequoctuan
[15:01] <zj3t3mju> I has an unaffiliated but i want to use ubuntu cloak :P
[15:01] <Myrtti> zj3t3mju: you don't seem to be Ubuntu member though
[15:02] <erUSUL> zj3t3mju: do not see the ubuntu member group in your launchpad page :| as Myrtti points out
[17:25] <snadge> interesting idea that is non unique that could be discussed
[17:25] <snadge> the creation of a new support channel for ubuntu
[17:25] <snadge> for people who know how to read forums, wiki and use google
[17:25] <Myrtti> say that again?
[17:26] <snadge> ok rephrased for the international people whos first language may not be english
[17:26] <Myrtti> ok, I read the first sentence the third time and I think I got it now
[17:26] <snadge> "if anyone wants to, less discuss an idea that has been thought of already by numerous people"
[17:27] <snadge> lets not less sigh.. i have a laggy ssh and a poor keyboard
[17:27] <snadge> it doesn't really matter anyway, the 2nd and 3rd lines are more important ;)
[17:28] <snadge> other less significant distros.. like centos and suse, have smaller support channels
[17:28] <snadge> but as such, the quality of the support is much higher
[17:28] <ebel> so #ubuntu-slightly-knowledgeable ?
[17:28] <snadge> bingo
[17:29] <Myrtti> snadge: a) what kind of pop quiz have you thought of issuing people that want to join it?
[17:29] <snadge> simple.. just kickban people who ask questions that are too easy to solve
[17:29] <Myrtti> right
[17:29] <snadge> with the reason "go back to #ubuntu n00b"
[17:29] <snadge> ok maybe thats a bit harsh.. im open to better ideas
[17:29] <ebel> community enforced?
[17:30] <ebel> "Sorry you should ask in #ubuntu"
[17:30] <ebel> just repeat that till they go away?
[17:30] <Myrtti> I don't see a future for this, but go ahead
[17:30] <snadge> but the topic should clearly state.. that if your question exists in the forums, wikis, or less than 5 minutes on google.. its not appropriate for this channel
[17:30] <ebel> So JFGI ?
[17:30] <ebel> :P
[17:31] <snadge> the idea is to encourage people to do this first, before wasting everybody's time
[17:31] <snadge> irc is not a replacement for a small amount of effort on the behalf of the person asking the question
[17:31] <snadge> its incredibly frustrating when you have a REAL question
[17:32] <snadge> that somebody might be useful to help with.. AFTER you have already done the above
[17:32] <snadge> to see a flood of questions being made by people who obviously havn't bothered
[17:33] <snadge> the centos channel is heaps better for example
[17:33] <snadge> you get intelligent people asking real questions the majority of the time
[17:34] <snadge> perhaps the #ubuntu-advanced channel could have registration
[17:34] <snadge> and in order to use it, you have to be a member
[17:34] <snadge> in order to become a member.. you need to pass a small test
[17:36] <ikonia> snadge: the consensus is that the current setup is the best setup
[17:36] <snadge> like "what is the link to the wiki?" and "what is google used for?"
[17:37] <snadge> sure it might sound elitist, but theres a point to it.. i love ubuntu, i dont bother with #ubuntu
[17:37] <ikonia> that's your decision not to
[17:37] <ikonia> the majority of users get what they need from it at all levels
[17:37] <snadge> when you say "consensus" is this personal opinion or actual consensus
[17:38] <snadge> because the idea to split the support channel into two.. is certainly not unique
[17:38] <ikonia> most people I've seen talk about the channel
[17:38] <snadge> and very much welcomed by more advanced ubuntu users
[17:38] <ikonia> snadge: many people have talked about splitting it, but the cons far out way the pros
[17:38] <Myrtti> snadge: actual consensus reached during several discussions that have basically suggested the same thing over the years
[17:38] <snadge> it sounds like i need to join the ubuntu team then
[17:38] <ikonia> what ubuntu team ?
[17:39] <snadge> i dont know.. it is a community after all but i dont actually contribute anything
[17:39] <snadge> apart from advocating its use to people occasionally
[17:39] <ikonia> sign up the mail lists lots of discussion on htere
[17:39] <ikonia> there even
[17:40] <snadge> i dont want to have to get mark involved.. hes busy enough as it is ;)
[17:40] <snadge> what are the cons then?
[17:41] <snadge> i cant believe the cons outweigh the pros.. and that there is consensus on this subject.. that seems ridiculous to me
[17:41] <snadge> please someone enlighten me on the opposition to this idea
[17:41] <ikonia> snadge: splitting user base, administratoring more channels,
[17:41] <Myrtti> snadge: where to draw the line for advanced vs. newbie, who's to manage the channel, who guarantees there's enough population in both to keep the quality of the answers etc.
[17:41] <ikonia> it's gone around a few times
[17:41] <Pici> You're splitting up the finite resource, the volunteer supporters.
[17:42] <snadge> splitting the user base.. check.. administering more channels.. meh, whatever.. where to draw the line? thats easy.. already told you guys.. its obvious
[17:42] <snadge> whos to manage the channel.. anybody
[17:42] <Myrtti> snadge: so, who is going to draw that line and where?
[17:42] <ikonia> snadge: it's obvious to you - other people disagree
[17:43] <Myrtti> no, it's not obvious.
[17:43] <snadge> if its in the wiki or the forums, or easily locatable on the first page of google or close enough to
[17:43] <snadge> then people will be warned
[17:43] <ikonia> snadge: warned ?/ I don't think so
[17:43] <snadge> to go to the other channel or to do the above first
[17:43] <ikonia> snadge: no
[17:43] <erUSUL> snadge: i can tell that as a helper keeping up with more channels (someone even proposed splitting by topics sound;wifi etc) is not easy
[17:43] <ikonia> snadge: it's a help channel people can be shown those resources as part of the help
[17:43] <erUSUL> not for me at least
[17:43] <Myrtti> snadge: so you mean that whoever is administering the channel, should ask the question they've asked, check forums, google and whatever and then kick if there is an answer?
[17:44] <snadge> if i go into the #ubuntu-devel channel and ask more serious support questions
[17:44] <Myrtti> what an godawful mess to do
[17:44] <snadge> i am warned that it is not the place to do so
[17:44] <snadge> so its not without precedent
[17:44] <snadge> Myrtti: yes
[17:44] <ikonia> snadge: but it is the place to do so
[17:44] <snadge> same argument applies to the more serious support channel
[17:44] <snadge> repeat offenders are simply banned
[17:44] <ikonia> snadge: what if there are only 2 people in it
[17:45]  * Myrtti moves out the discussion
[17:45] <ikonia> snadge: and 14000 in #ubuntu
[17:45] <snadge> over time it will grow
[17:45] <ikonia> snadge: you ask advanced questions in #ubuntu - you get kicked, you should be in the advaned channel with 2 people
[17:45] <ikonia> snadge: really, some of the other ubuntu specific channels have not
[17:45] <snadge> no if you want to ask advanced questions in #ubuntu
[17:45] <snadge> go right ahead
[17:45] <ikonia> snadge: you can't have that
[17:45] <ikonia> snadge: you've said - it's not the placve
[17:45] <ikonia> #ubuntu-advaned is the place
[17:45] <snadge> yes you can.. it doesnt work both ways
[17:46]  * Pici is confused
[17:46] <ikonia> not fair on the new users to get croweded with your advacned questions
[17:46] <snadge> you can ask advanced questions in #ubuntu if you want to
[17:46] <snadge> but you cannot ask simple questions in #ubuntu-advanced
[17:46] <snadge> its simple
[17:46] <ikonia> snadge: no - you've said - it's #ubuntu-advanced for advanced questions
[17:46] <snadge> no i havnt
[17:46] <snadge> i have just clarified my position
[17:46] <ikonia> snadge: not fair on the new users to get focus of their simple questions in #ubuntu
[17:46] <snadge> yes it is
[17:46] <erUSUL> snadge: see here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392799
[17:46] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 392799 in ubuntu-community "#ubuntu too noisy to be useful" [Medium,Confirmed]
[17:46] <snadge> they might learn something
[17:46] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 392799 in ubuntu-community "#ubuntu too noisy to be useful" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/392799
[17:46] <Pici> silly bots.
[17:46] <ikonia> snadge: not if it's over their head
[17:46] <ikonia> snadge: bottom line is, it's been discussed in detail many times and the cons always out weight it
[17:47] <snadge> it looks like i will have to talk to mark then :P
[17:47] <ikonia> snadge: ok
[17:47] <ikonia> snadge: don't get what you want - talk to mark
[17:47] <snadge> thats what the boss is for, to sort out messes like this
[17:47] <ikonia> that attitude looks good
[17:47] <snadge> that people cant agree upon
[17:47] <ikonia> go for it
[17:47] <erUSUL> snadge: see the #ubuntu-meta channel idea on the bug report
[17:47] <snadge> you've already said.. its been debated repatedly
[17:47] <snadge> and no result
[17:47] <Pici> snadge: There is governance in place for for the Ubuntu IRC Community
[17:47] <erUSUL> snadge: it is close to what you are looking for ?
[17:47] <ikonia> yup, so go for it
[17:47] <snadge> so its time for more serious action
[17:48] <ikonia> stop talking then and get on with it
[17:48]  * Pici sighs
[17:48] <Pici> ikonia: stop
[17:48] <snadge> i will check #ubuntu-meta and that bug report of course
[17:50] <Pici> snadge: You're free to make a suggestion on that bug report and when we schedule our next IRC Council meeting you're free to attend as well.
[17:50] <snadge> the meta idea looks promising
[17:50] <snadge> its better than the current situation
[17:51] <Pici> I think the metabot itself is down for server maintenance at the moment however.
[17:51] <snadge> but it doesnt address the large volume of people that ask irritatingly stupid questions
[17:51] <ikonia> Pici: I'm mailed ljl to host it
[17:51] <snadge> and i hate to put it that way.. because it makes me sound like a debian user
[17:51] <snadge> and defeats the purpose of ubuntu "linux for human beings" and it violates the premise "there is never a stupid question, only stupid answers"
[17:52] <ikonia> everyone has to start somewhere
[17:52] <Pici> Everyone was new once.
[17:52] <snadge> right.. all im proposing is isolating these people
[17:52] <snadge> exactly
[17:52] <ikonia> why ? so they can't learn from experienced people ?
[17:52] <snadge> no they can join the advanced channel and LISTEN
[17:52] <ikonia> just ignore the questions you find stupid
[17:53] <snadge> theres just too much noise for me.. call me a grumpy old man.. whatever
[17:53] <ikonia> ok - that's you
[17:53] <ikonia> the majority are very pleased with it
[17:53] <snadge> i avoid the channel... because its irritating
[17:53] <ikonia> that's your call
[17:53] <snadge> you've obviously never been in #centos or even #opensuse
[17:53] <snadge> its like a breath of fresh air
[17:53] <ikonia> yes, very often
[17:53] <ikonia> it's much much smaller and has a smaller user base
[17:53] <Pici> The IRCC is more than happy to listen to suggestions, but we haven't heard one that makes a compelling argument for splitting the channel.
[17:53] <snadge> yes.. which appeals to people like me
[17:53] <ikonia> it's also more commonly used for a server platform
[17:54] <ikonia>  join #ubuntu-server for a more fair comparrison
[17:54] <ikonia> that's more like centos and opensuse, and gets some quite advanced questions
[17:54] <snadge> right but if i ask a sun java question in there
[17:54] <snadge> thats offtopic
[17:54] <ikonia> no it's not
[17:54] <snadge> if it relates to the web browser plugin
[17:54] <ikonia> java is used on the server
[17:55] <snadge> specifically
[17:55] <snadge> and if im then told to ask in #ubuntu.. i'd rather self terminate ;)
[17:55] <snadge> i did ask.. i got one psuedo response.. and then nothing
[17:55] <ikonia> snadge: then join ##java or #ubuntu-mozilla
[17:55] <ikonia> there are more specific channels with specialist people
[17:55] <ikonia> is it #ubuntu-mozilla-team sorry ?
[17:55] <ikonia> (just an example)
[17:56] <snadge> i suppose i _could_ do a channel list
[17:56] <ikonia> there are some very cool specialist #ubuntu channels
[17:56] <ikonia> #ubuntu-desktop for example, some really focussed discussion on the desktop products
[17:56] <ikonia> that may suit your needs better
[17:56] <ikonia> (from your example)
[17:57] <Pici> But those aren't support channels, those are team channels which may not want us funneling support questions to them.
[17:58] <Pici> snadge: Anyway, the best thing to do here would be to consolodate your ideas and put them in as a suggestion on the bug report.
[17:58] <snadge> its okay i am not the entire community
[17:58] <snadge> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[17:59] <snadge> this page would've been useful to me before i started this discussion
[17:59] <snadge> the irony being, i was advocating people read the wiki first
[17:59] <snadge> and it pissed me off when people didnt
[17:59] <Pici> !irc
[18:00] <snadge> right.. if i read the wiki i would've known that.. im not your typical ubuntu user though.. but i am lazy, and prone to bouts of stupidity just like anyone else
[18:00] <snadge> i shall eat humble pie
[18:00] <ikonia> everyone makes mistakes, that's why it seems a little harsh on people learning in #ubuntu
[18:01] <snadge> yeah but sometimes you just want to smash ur head into a table repeatedly
[18:01] <ikonia> by your own definition you'd have not been allowed a voice in the advanced channel
[18:01] <ikonia> snadge: everyone gets like that, I understand that
[18:02] <snadge> ubuntu is just too popular ;)
[18:02] <ikonia> that is an issue that's hard to manage
[18:02] <snadge> maybe i should go back to using debian j/k
[18:03] <snadge> on the plus side.. the debian folks must be loving it
[18:03] <snadge> ubuntu has soaked up all of the noobs ;)
[18:04] <ikonia> some of them have really gone onto some great contributions though
[18:04] <jussi01> snadge: we prefer you dont use "noob" and so on ;) new users or similar ;)
[18:04] <snadge> well we were all noobs once, and im clearly capable of eating humble pie
[18:05] <jussi01> !noob | snadge
[18:05] <snadge> so i don't necessarily mean it in a derogatory way
[18:05] <snadge> knowing why they're not welcome makes it all the more amusing though
[18:05] <snadge> but point noted, i shall refrain
[18:06] <snadge> noob! jfgi, stfu or rtfm! hahahaha sorry
[18:06] <snadge> why is that so amusing
[18:08] <ikonia> snadge: on a serious note, it can be quite rewarding to join #ubuntu and take a few new users under the wing, find some that are strugglging and take them to one side to help explain how to use the wiki well, google, etc etc, they normally come back stronger
[18:08] <ikonia> it's a good way to contribute to the community and has some solid rewards as well as make the channel better
[18:09] <ikonia> it's a good way to help clear the channel of the obvious questions to, lots of the more regular helpers put the time in that way and it seems to pay back really well
[18:17] <snadge> agreed.. this has been very productive and educational :P
[18:17] <snadge> the only reason it began as a rant.. is due to my unwarranted frustrations
[18:18] <snadge> but as is the case, it usually turns out there is a practical explanation for everything
[18:18] <snadge> the only reason i went down that path to begin with.. is because i felt i was not alone in my frustrations
[18:20] <snadge> which has built up over time i might add.. to the point where i make a ridiculous amount of effort to solve things myself, before considering asking in #ubuntu.. and the odd occasion when i actually do.. it just re-inforces that frustration
[18:23] <snadge> when i see that others dont put in that much effort to fix it themselves.. it used to upset me, hence what i thought was justification for splitting the support channel in two
[18:50] <popey> Sounds very much like a second level support much as you would get in many IS Departments..
[18:50] <popey> first level take the question, may be able to deal with some common FAQs, and pass upstream to 2nd level (#ubuntu-advanced or whatever) for ones they can't solve
[18:51] <popey> i too have had problems on ubuntu and consider myself somewhat clueful, and when i ask a slightly tricker question in #ubuntu I get the IRC equivalent of "blank looks"
[18:53] <popey> accepting the points made about dividing support resource, more channels and so on.
[18:59] <snadge> ascii stupid question, get a stupid ansi ;)
[19:01] <jussi01> anyway, this issue is due to be discussed in the IRC COuncil meeting on Sunday, so maybe you want to collect your thoughts for then?
[19:01] <snadge> sure.. where is the irc council meeting
[19:02] <jussi01> #ubuntu-meeting at 0700 UTC
[19:02] <jussi01> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[20:20] <erUSUL> FYI someone contacted me about a non aproved ubuntu channel could you take a look at --> http://paste.ubuntu.com/236087/
[20:30] <niko> always the same guy, erUSUL, Nehyx
[20:31] <erUSUL> niko: i suppose it is personal for him at this point
[20:32] <niko> yes i'm sure
[20:32] <erUSUL> niko: as i said when he came here. he should be still klined imho
[20:32] <niko> yes :)
[20:34] <erUSUL> niko:he floded in my channel today again... looks like his neighbor (the one he steals the wifi from) rebooted the router and he got new and shiny ip to continue flooding and bveing an a**hole
[20:34] <erUSUL> :|
[20:34] <niko> when ?
[20:34] <niko> uBOTu-fr helps ?
[20:34] <niko> ah your channel ?
[20:35] <niko> not u-es ?
[20:36] <Pici> erUSUL: Thanks for the heads up on that channel.
[20:36] <erUSUL> niko: yesin #ubuntu-es and yes the bot cought him
[20:36] <niko> ok
[20:36] <erUSUL> Pici: the thanks go to sebsebseb
[20:37] <snadge> estúpido idiota ;)
[20:51] <jussi01> For all those interested, here are some points to be discussed at the IRCC meeting on sunday (2nd aug). comments are welcome, but please think before you comment.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
[20:54] <niko> jussi01: good idea, the +v here
[20:54] <jussi01> :)
[20:55] <niko> but, that could be difficult to have a specific cloak for guy can manage #ubuntu-* loco channel
[20:55] <jussi01> specific cloak?
[20:55] <jussi01> I dont think I mentioned cloaks...
[20:57] <niko> so each guy with +v must have access on each loco channel ?
[20:59] <jussi01> niko: nope, just if you have access on $locochan then you get +v
[21:08] <erUSUL> where is the meeting channel ?
[21:09] <erUSUL> and hour ?
[21:15] <nalioth> erUSUL: #ubuntu-meeting has been the place for years now
[21:15] <erUSUL> nalioth: thanks
[21:16] <niko> if you request an ubuntu membship you will know :)
[21:21] <erUSUL> some of this days i will have to finally do it
[21:22] <jussi01> erUSUL: have you read the page up there? ^^ it concerns you also Id think... and your opinion is wanted also...
[21:24] <erUSUL> jussi01: yes read it. the part about voice/devoice yourself as an indication of aviability seems redundant. if i'm away the person will know when trying to contact me...
[21:24] <nalioth> erUSUL: but it would save time for everyone if they didn't have to do so
[21:24] <jussi01> erUSUL: not really the point. its so easy to see who is available right now. might be more important in -ops though.
[21:25] <niko> jussi01: +v will depends away status ?
[21:26] <jussi01> niko: idea is +v would be used like freenode stats p
[21:26] <niko> ok
[21:26] <niko> so you need a bot here
[21:26] <erUSUL> nalioth: jussi01 how would people now the +v is an indication of aviability ? they will see a bunch of nicks with +v others without wonder for a split second what is that about and ask to the whole channel anyway
[21:26] <niko> but in fact this channel is really quiet :)
[21:27] <jussi01> niko: We are attempting to change hat by making it more useful and intuitive
[21:27] <niko> ok
[21:27] <jussi01> niko: and erUSUL dont forget to put your points on the wiki so they get discussed at the meeting
[21:28] <niko> yes
[21:29] <erUSUL> ok
[21:40] <erUSUL> jussi01: maybe that would work only for people like you (can give cloaks etc) to give an indication to people like me as to who ca i ping if someone request one... currently i just ping evryone i remember can give the cloaks...
[21:41] <erUSUL> jussi01: the cloaks is just an example... its the same for other isuues only someone whith power (member of the council staffer etc) can handle
[21:42] <jussi01> erUSUL: thing is, this channel is supposed to be for international IRC ops and issues. So we want to make it more useful to you all.
[21:45] <jussi01> niko: why would we need a bot?
[21:46] <niko> if you want somethings away aware, you have no choice
[21:46] <jussi01> niko: no, just when you are "available" you voice yourself. simple.
[21:46] <niko> ah ok
[22:13] <m4v> erUSUL: wouldn't it be a good time to bring the issue about pelicano and #ubuntu-es management?
[22:19] <erUSUL> m4v: to be honest i was hoping to not have to bring this up. i really do not like the current situation but on te other hand i also would not like to make a "mutiny" :(
[22:26] <m4v> it is not mutiny, I mean about giving you more control over #ubuntu-es
[22:28] <erUSUL> m4v: well i will have to bypass pelicano given he is mia and when online he does not respond
[22:28] <m4v> pelicano is hardly around, nor available.
[22:28] <niko> erUSUL: it's still an issue, you should ask for +F
[22:30] <m4v> the foundership of the channel isn't the problem, but that you need of pelicano for editing the access list
[22:31] <niko> +f should help so
[22:31] <ubot4> niko: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[22:31] <niko> ubot4: i don't think that
[22:31] <ubot4> niko: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[22:31]  * erUSUL :)
[22:31] <niko> !dis moi un truc
[22:32] <niko> i like my Megahal plugin :)
[22:33] <erUSUL> so how would i go about requesting the +Ff ? easy process?
[22:34] <niko> ask pelicano :)
[22:34] <erUSUL> niko: have done via email twice; no reponses so far
[22:34] <niko> try memoserv :)
[22:38] <erUSUL> only 300 chars :(
[22:39] <niko> 'give me power, lamer'
[22:39] <niko> xD
[22:42] <m4v> erUSUL: many memoservs?
[22:43] <erUSUL> m4v: done a memo and yet another mail...