=== asac_ is now known as asac
bazhangwb nickrud07:49
nickrudhey bazhang07:49
bazhanglong time no see :)07:50
nickrudI'm still on the mail list, and this seemed like an appropriate meeting for a missing op to show up at07:50
Mamarokgood morning07:50
bazhangMamarok, good morning07:50
nickrudhow's thing's been for you the last few months?07:50
bazhangpretty good, and you?07:51
elkyrandom chatter should adjourn to elsewhere for the sake of sane meeting logs ;)07:51
nickrudlikewise all in all. Been getting some away from keyboard time again. Oh, the meeting started already :p07:51
bazhangwhoops sorry elky07:52
elkynot for another 8 minutes, but still07:52
nickrudaye, sensible07:52
jussi01Ok, who have we got? Pricey Pici you here yet?08:02
elkyjust you and me so far08:03
elkyso we're still sans quorum08:03
elkyPici, Pricey ping?08:24
jussi01Still Sans quorum. If there is none by half past, meeting is cancelled (IMHO)08:24
Hobbseeirc meeting on a sunday?08:29
bazhangapparently not08:29
Shane_Faganis the ubuntu-doc meeting in 5 minutes ?20:56
Shane_Fagan(Im not really used to using UTC)20:56
Shane_Faganpopey: Thanks20:56
Keybukpopey: I was shouting at you on the train earlier21:01
=== mdke_ is now known as mdke
popeyo rly?21:02
Keybukpopey: you were being wrong on a podcast21:02
popeywe accept email :)21:02
mdkeis that a first?21:02
popeynot by a long way :)21:03
Keybukpopey: I think you were just playing devils advocate over the whole "users opinions matter" issue21:03
popeyKeybuk: you're too kind21:03
Keybuk(obviously they don't)21:05
mdkeok, documentation team meeting in the house21:05
mwcrowleyin the hizzy21:05
Rocket2DMnlol, word!21:05
mdkehere's the agenda - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda21:05
mdkeI think we can safely skip the first two items, unless anyone would like to introduce themselves as a new contributor, or has questions about how to get involved?21:06
mdkeoh, and21:07
MootBotMeeting started at 15:07. The chair is mdke.21:07
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:07
mdkeok, so let's deal with the old business first21:08
mdke[TOPIC] DITA and Mallard -- any comments?21:09
MootBotNew Topic:  DITA and Mallard -- any comments?21:09
DougieRichardsonNot really much to say, Jim's not here is he?21:09
mdkedoesn't look like it21:09
DougieRichardsonEither technology has their advantages21:09
mdkefor those interested, DITA and Mallard are alternative document formats to docbook21:09
DougieRichardsonand in the long term we need to give it serious consideration21:09
DougieRichardsonbut not realistically in the short to medium term21:10
Rocket2DMnAre they easier to edit than docbook?21:10
DougieRichardsonThere's too much change21:10
mdkeMallard certainly is21:10
DougieRichardsonNot really, although there is a DITA editor21:10
mdkethe idea is to reduce the number of tags used to those absolutely necessary21:10
technomenschwhat about managing?21:10
mdkeso it's a lot simpler than docbook21:10
DougieRichardsonJim knows more than I do about the editing side of life21:10
Rocket2DMnIs there a tool to convert docbook xml to either of those?21:11
mwcrowleyany editor reccomendations?21:11
mdkeI'm not aware of one at the moment for mallard21:11
DougieRichardsonThere are21:11
andrew_sayersAbout editing - I assume that importing/exporting to/from OOo would be considered sacrilege?21:11
DougieRichardson(For DITA)21:11
mdkeandrew_sayers: that might work for new documents, subjct to the xml being cleaned up afterwards21:11
mdkeandrew_sayers: but I don't think it can work for editing existing documnts21:12
Rocket2DMnSounds like this needs to be researched more, we're getting mixed responses.  Is there a spec for this idea?21:12
mdkeanyway, DougieRichardson is right, these are for consideration in the long term, but not now, I don't think21:12
technomenschagreed that more research is needed21:12
mdkegiven that Gnome upstream is moving to Mallard, we'll need to consider it in terms of sharing material for ubuntu-docs21:13
DougieRichardsonThere was a lot of involvement from the developer of Mallard last time I spoke to Phil on IRC, but he's not here21:13
technomenscha pros/cons compatibilty chart, along with a cost (time/work involved) analysis should probably be time21:13
Rocket2DMnWhat would be really great is a good graphical method for editing docs, like having an "ubuntu-docs" project in an IDE of some sort21:13
DougieRichardsonTechnically, I prefer DITA but as you said mdke, Gnome is moving to Mallard21:13
mdkefor us to move generally to Mallard, I'd like to see if KDE adopts it too21:14
DougieRichardsonImporting from web  editing is probably worth focussing on21:14
mdkebut we'll have to see how Gnome arranges their work to see if we'll be "forced" to use it for ubuntu-docs21:14
DougieRichardsonI agree21:14
Rocket2DMnAgreed, we may have our hands tied by Gnome's upstream decisions if we want to keep the integration21:15
DougieRichardsonwe should probably discuss it on list, as I don't think any one at woscon is her now21:15
Shane_FaganWhats the timeframe on Gnomes change to Mallard ?21:15
mdkeShane_Fagan: unclear at present, because it involves rewriting the whole user guide21:16
DougieRichardsonshane_fagan: I understood it was for 3.021:16
Rocket2DMndo they have a target date for 3.0?21:16
mdkeShane_Fagan: but some things are moving already, like the Empathy manual21:16
mdkeit will depend on manpower21:16
Shane_FaganRocket2DMn: October of next year I think21:17
Rocket2DMnIf they release in October, then we are 6 months behind, right?  So Karmic+3?21:17
Shane_FaganApril Sorry21:18
Rocket2DMnthat's assuming Ubuntu takes on Gnome 3.0 for the dev cycle right after it is release upstream21:18
Rocket2DMnoh, April '10?21:18
Shane_FaganJust looked at the roadmap21:18
mdkeboth Milo and Phil are heavily involved on the upstream team so they can keep us in touch with developments21:18
Rocket2DMnOk, I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.  Thanks for making us aware of it.21:19
mdkeas a proposal, I'd suggest we continue to monitor things, I don't think there is any need to take any decisions at the moment21:19
mdke[ACTION] continue to monitor Gnome upstream adoption of Mallard with a view to evaluating whether it could work for the project21:20
MootBotACTION received:  continue to monitor Gnome upstream adoption of Mallard with a view to evaluating whether it could work for the project21:20
mdkemoving on21:20
mdke[TOPIC] Discussion about licensing for wiki.ubuntu.com21:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Discussion about licensing for wiki.ubuntu.com21:20
mdkethis is on the Community Council agenda, so I suggest we leave that to them21:21
DougieRichardsonI agree with that21:21
Rocket2DMnmdke, can you explain why it is being discussed?21:21
Rocket2DMnWhat is the current license, and what is the proposed change?21:21
mdkesee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for background21:21
Rocket2DMnok, thanks21:21
mdkeany more comments on this item?21:22
mdke[AGREED] defer to Community Council for discussion/decision21:23
MootBotAGREED received:  defer to Community Council for discussion/decision21:23
mdke[TOPIC] Status update on Kubuntu and Xubuntu documentation21:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Status update on Kubuntu and Xubuntu documentation21:24
mdkeanyone around from Kubuntu, Xubuntu?21:24
Rocket2DMnvorian ?21:24
* DougieRichardson spots tumbleweed rolling across the room21:24
technomenschhe speaks...21:25
mdkeneither of jjesse or nixternal are around for Kubuntu21:25
mdkeJim isn't here for Xubuntu21:25
Rocket2DMnhey vorian , any status update on Kubuntu docs?21:25
voriannot for sure21:25
vorianI am somewhat confident that jjesse got an earlier start this cycle21:25
mdkehey shaun21:26
shaunmhi mdke21:26
shaunmI just missed a mallard conversation?21:26
mdkea fairly brief on :)21:26
mdkeI'll paste it in a msg21:26
shaunmcool, thanks21:26
Rocket2DMnok, thanks vorian21:26
vorianno problemo21:26
Rocket2DMnmdke, anything else for this topic?21:28
mdkeok, so on this item I'll propose we defer it to a meeting when the interested people are around21:30
mdkeit's difficult to say anything in the absence of the people working on Kubuntu and Xubuntu21:30
mdkeis anyone here interested in helping out on those projects for documentation?21:30
mdkeany contribution will be well received, I'm ure21:30
mdkeshall we move on for the time being?21:30
mdke[ACTION] Defer to next meeting where Kubuntu/Xubuntu guy are around21:31
MootBotACTION received:  Defer to next meeting where Kubuntu/Xubuntu guy are around21:31
mdke[TOPIC] Categories and SubPages for the Wiki Playbook: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiSandBox/CategoryConcept21:31
MootBotNew Topic:  Categories and SubPages for the Wiki Playbook: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiSandBox/CategoryConcept21:31
shaunmhey, if you're going to discuss mallard further in another meeting, can somebody give me a ping over email?21:31
technomenschI guess that brings me to the table of discussion21:32
mdkeshaunm: sure thing, this was kinda hung over from a previous meeting I think - but is there anything you would like to add now?21:32
DougieRichardsonshaunm sure can21:32
technomenschI defer my time to shaunm if he has anything to add before we proceed21:32
mdkethanks technomensch21:33
shaunmnothing concrete.  I'd just like to hear the concerns from ubuntu, so I know what we need to address upstream21:33
mdkefrom my point of view, I think it look good - my only concern would be adoption by more projects21:34
mdkein particular, I'd be a bit concerned that people contributing to our team might have to learn more than one markup if they wanted to work on Gnome or KDE documents21:34
shaunmright, I've talked to j1mc and nixternal about getting together for a face-to-face, since we're all pretty close to each other21:35
mdkethat would be great21:35
mdkeat the moment, not many people contribute to more than one "flavour" of Ubuntu, so it may not be a real concern I guess21:35
technomenschperhaps a summary of that meeting might be beneficial21:35
mdkegenerally, I think Mallard will be an improvement to Ubuntu becaue we'll have a greater ability to plug things into Gnome documents21:36
shaunmtechnomensch: we'll definitely do a write-up if we manage to schedule a time and place21:36
=== vorian is now known as buttercup
mdkeI believe that KDE is due a rewrite of their help system21:37
mdkea cross desktop help system would rock21:37
mdkeok, let's shift back to the agenda item on wiki categories21:38
mdkethis is andrew_sayers' baby21:39
andrew_sayersWell, it's more technomensch's.21:39
mdkeand technomensch21:39
mdkeah, my bad21:39
technomenschwell, the whole thing started with my volunteering to develop the wiki playbook21:39
andrew_sayersHe came up with a what, I suggested a how :)21:39
technomenschthere wasn't that much to fix up from the last meeting, but I wanted to introduce an organizational structure and how editors should include it in their work21:40
technomenschtry to bring things under an umbrella like dome21:40
=== buttercup is now known as vorian
technomenschso I brought it to the mailing list, and andrew came with a good idea.  I took his work, modified it to plain, laymen's english terms21:41
technomenschand that wiki page is the culmination of that work21:41
technomenschessentially, I got the idea from our current "tag" system21:41
technomenschI think having "CategoryPrograms" "CategoryHardware" would make the urls tooo long21:42
technomenschso we're recommending making higher level categories21:42
technomenschwithout having to actually change the URLs21:42
technomenschand if this is acceptable, we can make specific hug days for specific categories21:43
technomenschlike a week for programs, a week for hardware, etc....21:43
mdkeI still find the wiki page a bit difficult to understand presentationally21:43
technomenschand try to knock out this organization and clean-up21:43
Rocket2DMnI've been reading through this page for the last 15 min or so, and I still don't understand what is happening21:44
technomenschlet me try it a different way21:44
mdkeI *think* there is a good idea behind it21:44
technomenschyou know are "tag" system21:44
mdkebut the page needs some work to ensure that it can convince people and gets the idea across properly21:44
technomenschwhere we "include" tags and use those links to make the tags that need work21:45
andrew_sayersWould it be easier if you had a look at an example (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiSandBox/CategoryConcept/InstallingPrograms), then looked at the raw text, to see what page editors would have to add?21:45
technomenschgood suggestion andrew21:45
DougieRichardsonso what is the advantage of this approach?21:46
technomenscheasier to find docs, organization, structure21:46
andrew_sayersAllows a hierarchy of categories.21:47
DougieRichardsonand potential disadvantages?21:47
technomenschlack of participation21:47
technomenschor understanding21:47
Rocket2DMnThis sounds like a high maintenance project21:47
DougieRichardsonin what way?21:47
mdkeI can definitely see the advantages in presentation because it allows the user to find quickly other pages in a similar category21:47
Shane_FaganIt does look at lot easier to navigate21:48
mdkethe potential disadvantage is definitely the level of maintenance required21:48
technomenschagreed matt21:48
mdkebut it could be made easier for users to create pages with that layout by using templates for new pages in a particular category21:48
technomenschfor a project of this size, it would be extremely difficult21:48
andrew_sayersI'm not sure I understand the maintenance argument - can you give an example?21:48
technomenschgood suggestion matt21:49
DougieRichardsonhow can we address that? What we be the maintenance issue - ensuring categories ae entered21:49
mdkeandrew_sayers: it's not actually that easy for users learning how to edit th wiki, who are already thrown by some of the markup, to understand what they need to do21:49
mdkei think there will be a lot of inconsistent application of the idea throughout the wiki21:49
Rocket2DMnThese have to go and get applied to all existing pages, and made sure they are added to new pages.  I don't think we can expect new pages to use this, wiki history has shown as that people just make whatever they feel like21:49
technomenschand my goal with the playbook is to make it as simple/easy as possible for new editors21:49
Rocket2DMnThat said, I do think we need something, I just find this difficult to understand21:50
andrew_sayersmdke: Right, I see.  FWIW, adding a page to an existing category is only a smidgen different to the way it works at present.  But getting that fact across might be hard.21:50
DougieRichardsonis there anyway we can make the addition of category mandatory and can we then control what categories are available21:50
mdkeandrew_sayers: yeah, I'm not condemning the idea at all21:50
mdkeI have a couple of suggestions21:50
technomenschdougie, I would think that could be set in a drop box??21:50
technomenschwhat category it should be in, that is21:51
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: that's what i thought21:51
mdkethe first is to do a bit of work on the spec page to make things a bit clearer to people reading21:51
Rocket2DMnAre these new Categories designed to be used for pages about programs/applications?  What about more abstract pages?21:51
technomenschwe can make instructional/educational categories21:51
Shane_FaganRocket2DMn: an other category maybe21:52
mdkethe second is to make the example pages and example category top level, rather than subpages of the spec itself, because that is one of the confusing things about the spec21:52
mdkethat's a small tweak21:52
technomenschand create an example of a template page that would create a new page with the templates preinserted21:52
mdkethe third suggestion would be to list the intended categories, because I think this is a great chance to pin down how we use categories as opposed to tags21:52
technomenschkinda of like a category flowchart21:53
Rocket2DMnOk.  Is this something wen can use to flag pages as applicable to different versions of Ubuntu as well?21:53
technomenschthere is a thought21:53
andrew_sayersCould we add some content to the generic page template?21:53
mdkeRocket2DMn: I'd say no21:53
mdkeRocket2DMn: because that would involve using the category concept for different types of function21:54
mdkeat the moment, it distinguishes pages with different subject matter21:54
Rocket2DMnSo what about these series of pages - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications21:54
andrew_sayersThat would let us provide some default categories that people can choose from.21:54
mdke(as opposed to the tag system, which deals with the editorial state of pages)21:54
technomenschrocket, that type of page would be modified to fit this structure....21:55
technomenschin other words, it wouldn't have to be managed manually21:55
mdkeandrew_sayers: yes, definitely21:55
technomenschbut rather, automatically via the moinmoin system21:55
Shane_Faganautomatically is good21:55
technomenschbut that page is almost the perfect example21:56
Rocket2DMnunderstood technomensch ,.  Current there are a couple of different attempts at organization conflicting on the wiki right now.  There was a SoftwareProject , and the Applications, etc.  I would love to get those cleaned up, probably in advance of implementing this new idea21:56
technomenschbecause it has a well defined structure with subcategories21:56
mdkeRocket2DMn: +121:56
Rocket2DMnI've been hesitant to act on those b/c I'm not sure which as still active, or which have been abandoned21:57
technomenschwell this would give us a chance to find out21:57
Rocket2DMnIs duncan lithgow still around?21:57
mdkeI haven't seen him around for a while21:57
Rocket2DMnI think he was implentning the Software/ pages (i.e. see the pages shown here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareProject )21:58
Rocket2DMnthat was supposed to be a change from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/ProjectHome21:58
technomenschdo you guys think we'd be able to get some hands on deck for a few hug sessions if we break these categories up and solely focus on one at a time, rather than letting everyone run rampant21:58
mdkeyes, I think that would work21:59
mdkebut I think the spec needs some work first, so that it can become our "definitive" guide to using categories21:59
Rocket2DMnthat sounds good technomensch .  I think b/c attempts have been made in the past, we really need to make sure this one is going to work.  One of the best ways to ensure it's success is to clear out conflicting projects in advance21:59
mdketechnomensch, andrew_sayers - would you be prepared to work on the spec based on the feedback in this session and represent it at the next meeting or via the list?22:00
andrew_sayersFWIW, it looks like the default "Describe PageName here." text is hard-coded in MoinMoin, so editing it is probably not practical.22:00
mdkewe could probably make a default template22:00
technomenschI think that was part of the plan matt22:00
Rocket2DMnmdke, on the subject of templates, the DocumentationTemplate seems to have been hijacked -https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocumentationTemplate22:00
andrew_sayersFine by me.  Unless people say otherwise, my plan would be to create four documents - "for readers", "for page authors", "for category authors", and "for administrators", where each adds more information.22:01
technomenschgood catch rocket22:01
technomenschactually andrew, this is all going in the playbook22:01
DougieRichardsonOh I remember him asking questions on the mailing list22:01
andrew_sayersThen my plan is for you to do whatever you like ;)22:01
technomenschwell andrew, this is what I have in mind22:02
Rocket2DMntechnomensch, ill take the aciton to move that SAGE documentation, and revert to the real template22:02
mdkeRocket2DMn: reverted, thanks22:02
Rocket2DMnoh, ok22:02
technomenschandrew, would you be game to look at the templates to see if you can get a model working?22:02
andrew_sayersSure.  Would it be better if we talk this through between ourselves after the meeting?22:02
mdkeandrew_sayers: that sounds reasonably sensible, but presentationally, I think the spec needs to have some simple introductory explanation so that the concept is immediately clear22:03
technomenschglad ot have a partner in crime22:03
mdkegood stuff22:03
mdkeit will be nice to sort out the use of categories22:03
Rocket2DMnOk, well this project sounds like it could work out once we get some clearer explanations and solid examples22:03
Rocket2DMnI can take the task to go clean out the old conflicting projects if you want22:04
mdke[ACTION] technomensch and andrew_sayers to work on developing the specification further in light of feedback provided22:04
MootBotACTION received:  technomensch and andrew_sayers to work on developing the specification further in light of feedback provided22:04
* Rocket2DMn is trigger happy with the delete button22:04
technomenschrocket, yes, that would be a good project for the beginners team22:04
mdkethat sounds like quite a job22:05
Rocket2DMntechnomensch, it wouldnt really be a BT thing, they don't have the privileges to do that22:05
mdkeso awesome, Rocket2DMn gets it :)22:05
technomenschbut they can at least "mark for deletion" :)22:05
Rocket2DMnthats true technomensch , though its probably just as easy for me to find them myself.  I'd much rather have BT people writing real documentation22:06
mdke[ACTION] Rocket2DMn to review existing projects for categorising wiki pages, identify abandoned ones and do some serious cleanup22:06
MootBotACTION received:  Rocket2DMn to review existing projects for categorising wiki pages, identify abandoned ones and do some serious cleanup22:06
Rocket2DMnI can brief you guys later on the Summer of Documentation if youre interested22:06
Rocket2DMnwe should finish our agenda first though22:07
* mdke nods22:07
DougieRichardsonI think that might be an idea.22:07
technomenschjust as long as it isn't the "Fall of Documentation"  <<rimshot>>22:07
mdkenext topic22:07
mdke[TOPIC] Discussion about automating answers to common questions22:07
Rocket2DMnwell played technomensch22:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Discussion about automating answers to common questions22:07
mdkeandrew_sayers: you're up :)22:07
andrew_sayersOkay, so there've been a few conversations on the ML lately around support and documentation...22:08
andrew_sayersAutomating support issues, turning common support issues into documentation, etc.22:08
andrew_sayersAnd there's all sorts of ways we can look at it, but it depends on how much interest there is from people.22:08
Shane_FaganWell there is a list of FAQs on launchpad can we take some of those.22:09
Rocket2DMnthats a raised hand for a question22:09
andrew_sayersRocket2DMn: shoot.22:09
Rocket2DMnActually, not really a question, but more of a comment22:09
Rocket2DMnBased on work that I've done on the forums, there have been attempts to create generic responses, or automate answers to questions22:09
Rocket2DMnIt has never really worked b/c every problem can be a little bit different.22:10
Rocket2DMnI think the best way to answer people's "generic" questions is simply to write good, clear, and accessible documentation, which is what we alreday try to do22:10
Rocket2DMnThen point users to it when they ask22:10
* mdke nods22:11
mdkethere are already quite a few projects like this, I think22:11
DougieRichardsonThat's an interesting observation rocket2dmn because it appears to me that repeat questions are the most common questions on the forums.22:11
andrew_sayersIf you can get the manpower for that, that's fine, although the question then is how to actually get people to look at the documentation.22:11
Rocket2DMnyeah DougieRichardson , that is true.  In which case we document it on the wiki and direct users to it22:11
mdkewe have the ubottu for irc faqs, launchpad and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions22:12
Shane_FaganIt would be good if ubottu could point to FAQs on launchpad too22:12
andrew_sayersThis doesn't fit into a wider narrative, but it's worth pointing out that users' initial questions can be fairly information-free...22:12
mdkeandrew_sayers: in terms of your reference in the agenda item to irc, do you think the existing bot does a bad job or could be improved?22:13
DougieRichardsonrocket2dmn - support goes beyond the forums though - signposting strikes me as a good idea, in this case you can direct people to one page rather than a bunch22:13
andrew_sayersRanging from "can I ask a question" to "my sound doesn't work, what do I do?".  An automated system that gets them to better questions could have some value.22:13
mdke(http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi for a list of the automated responses)22:13
mdkethose do a pretty good job at pointing at the authoritative doc for a particular subject22:14
andrew_sayersmdke: I think the existing bot is useful for a particular job, but I'm thinking of something different for this...22:14
Rocket2DMnDougieRichardson, isn't that the point of the homepages of h.u.c. and the system docs?22:14
DougieRichardsonrocket2dmn yes but are you saying that they couldn't be improved?22:14
Rocket2DMnnot at all DougieRichardson , we are always looking for ways to improve22:15
mdkeandrew_sayers: I think that if you have ideas for improving the irc experience, the best way to get them implemented or discussed is to explain them to the irc team22:15
DougieRichardsonrocket2dmn then I can't see the issue, signposting is an improvement to the current front page22:15
andrew_sayersmdke: The existing bot automates the process of writing an answer once an informed human has decided on it, but doesn't take people out of the equation at all.22:16
mdkeandrew_sayers: you mean it's based on a trigger?22:16
andrew_sayersAnd that it doesn't try to guess things based on input from question-askers.22:16
Rocket2DMnDougieRichardson, I would support improving the front page(s) of documentation, I just don't want to see it as a new/separate project22:16
DougieRichardsonrocket2dmn neither do I - where is that written?22:17
Rocket2DMnI gathered that Signpost was a new/separate project.  Have I misunderstood?22:17
mdkeandrew_sayers: #ubuntu might get a bit crowded though if there was a lot of bot chatter without specific human triggering, but it's something to be suggested to the irc team22:18
andrew_sayersActually, I think starting with IRC is looking at it the wrong way to look at it - the issue is to see whether and how we can get more productivity out of a fixed number of supporters/support channels.  Whether that goes on IRC, the web, or something else comes later.22:18
technomenschany good ideas over on the brainstorm?22:18
Shane_FaganMaybe if the bot sends the message privately to the person who asks the question22:19
DougieRichardsonrocket2dmn As discussed on the mailing list, that isn't necessarily the case, at least not the entire project22:19
DougieRichardsonbrb switching laptops.22:19
Rocket2DMnOk, I must have missed that discussion, I was on vacation for a few weeks.  Sorry, I guess I'm just not up to speed.22:19
andrew_sayersRocket2DMn: the Signpost as a new non-documentation project, but the doc team expressed more interest than expected, so it's on the agenda next :)22:21
andrew_sayersEr, the signpost *started* as a new non-documentation project...22:21
Rocket2DMnAh ok, I see.  Yeah, I agree that the homepage needs some work.  I wouldn't oversimplify it, but it could use some color and better organization22:22
andrew_sayersOkay, so I think it might be good to put differently the question I wanted to ask...22:22
andrew_sayersa) There's currently a lot of duplication of effort in the support forums.22:23
Shane_Faganandrew_sayers: +1 there22:23
technomenschesp when cross-referenced with existing documentation22:23
andrew_sayersb) Worse still, duplicate answers questions lead to a multitude of answers, some of which bad.22:23
andrew_sayersc) A sufficiently frequently-asked question is by definition a support issue.22:24
Rocket2DMnOk, now you're really stepping into my realm of experience :)  I can address each of those points22:24
Rocket2DMna) Absolutely there is.  However, this isn't necessarily bad.  Supporters often reference existing documentation and combine it with their own experience to provide answers to questions.22:25
andrew_sayersSo would people be interested in spending time on finding ways to reduce the duplication of effort, and to get people to actually read the previous answers?22:25
Rocket2DMnWhat did you have in mind for that andrew_sayers ?  In my experience ,people are going to come and ask questions, regardless of whehter its already documented22:26
Shane_FaganRocket2DMn: in my experience they do that22:26
mdkeandrew_sayers: that's a totally loaded question - you can't answer it "no"22:26
Rocket2DMnb) You're talking about quality control.  This is extremely difficult to manipulate except through continuing efforts to educate users22:26
mdkeit's what we do as the documentation team22:27
technomenschas someone who works in tech support, I can definitely state that people will definitely not look for the doc if there is an easy place to go ask for help22:27
mdkei.e. aim to produce reliable and definitive answers which can be used in the support arena22:27
Rocket2DMn+1 mdke , many of the forum regulars rely heavily on existng documentation and direct users to them when applicable22:27
mdkebut reading the Flowq page, it's much more22:28
andrew_sayersRocket2DMn: Depends on how much interest there is from other people.  The three solutions I have right now are the signpost, a system for searching old #ubuntu logs, or a "20 questions" system, which would let you type your question in and try to match it with an answer.22:28
DougieRichardson+1 technomensch22:28
Rocket2DMnandrew_sayers, in response to c) absolutely, and we do try to document common problems.  Preferably this goes onto wiki pages, but also tends to go into forum guides and howtos22:28
Rocket2DMn+1 technomensch22:29
Shane_Fagantechnomensch: +122:29
Rocket2DMnandrew_sayers, i like the idea of updating the front page of the help wiki (which is part of Signpost I guess)22:29
andrew_sayersmdke: I'm not making myself clear.  I'm not asking for interest in providing answers, but in developing new platforms and/or modifying current platforms to get answers to people.22:29
Rocket2DMnYour second point about searching old #ubuntu logs probably won't work well because things change, and if you've ever been in #ubuntu, you've seen how chaotic that is22:29
Rocket2DMnhowever, i think i have heard of attempts to use irc logs to gather such information22:30
mdkeandrew_sayers: right. But the idea that all Ubuntu support resource (irc, Launchpad, forums, whatever) can improve by using flowchart methodology is quite an ambitious one22:30
Rocket2DMnfinally, you're "20 questions" systems sounds like a FAQ page22:30
andrew_sayersAbout searching #ubuntu - maybe, although presenting just a single conversation *might* be possible.22:30
mdkeandrew_sayers: have you been in touch with the Launchpad developers about it? I think that is the arena which would be most susceptible to ideas22:31
Shane_FaganMaybe if launchpad could suggest the answer from the FAQ22:32
technomenschI think we're starting to get into a seemantic web search discussion, where such a search engine for plain english answers is not yet available.22:32
andrew_sayersThe "flowchart" and "20 questions" models can both be seen as search interfaces to a FAQ, if you want to see it that way.22:32
Shane_Faganwell it wouldnt take much effort to write a search of IRC logs forum treads and questions on launchpad22:33
andrew_sayersmdke: To answer your specific question, I've not contacted the LP guys yet because I'm not yet sure what the proposal would be.  It depends on whether it's just me, or other people too.22:34
Shane_Faganandrew_sayers: Id support anything that would streamline ubuntu answers22:35
Shane_Faganso ill help you out with it if you want22:36
popeyandrew_sayers: i have been trying to work on something similar, separately for a few months22:36
popeyandrew_sayers: so I'd be happy to help if I could22:36
mdkeandrew_sayers: my initial reaction is that although there might be ways to improve the specific support resources available, this is so ambitious an idea that it would be pretty complex to apply over the different resources available22:37
Rocket2DMnwell if you had to ask me about answers.launchpad.net, I think it should just redirect to ubuntuforums.org :)  I really do think it is a duplicate resource.  That said, I think the users who provide support on LP usually give better answers22:37
mdkeandrew_sayers: and the social issues of trying to convince the different resources to change their methodology are likely to be also pretty steep :)22:37
andrew_sayersThanks Shane.  So how about this for an action - Shane, Popey and I go and work out something simple, that can be implemented in a few weeks.  When that's done, we show it off and see if we can get some interest.  If so, we'll start work on a bigger, bolder version 2, with more ambition?22:38
andrew_sayersAlso, thanks popey :)22:38
mdkeRocket2DMn: yes, that was my feeling also when it started. I think that Mark's idea is to see if features can be developed that go beyond the usual web forum idea22:38
Rocket2DMnmdke, I can see that.  For instance, I like the highlighting of answers that are marked as the one that solved the problem.  Bug, I digress.22:38
mdkeRocket2DMn: drawing on the other areas of Launchpad and so on22:39
mdkeandrew_sayers: ok, agreed22:39
Rocket2DMnyeah, it is nice to convert bugs -> questions, file them under packages, etc22:39
technomenschmatt, you mean andrew22:39
* mdke nods at Rocket2DMn 22:39
mdketechnomensch: huh?22:39
technomensch"I think that Mark's idea is to see if features can be developed that go beyond the usual web forum idea"22:40
mdketechnomensch: I was referring to the Launchpad Answers project22:40
technomenschI was only saying that this whole concept sounded like the seamantic web concept22:40
Rocket2DMnI don't think LP answers would work on a large scale - most people don't care to be that close to the development arena.  They just want their problem fixed - they don't care about what package it applies to, or interfacing directly with developers22:40
Rocket2DMnyou would get a drop in quality if too many people started using it22:41
andrew_sayersI suspect LP answers is more useful for small projects, where people in the know don't use the forums.22:41
mdke[ACTION] Shane, Popey and I go and work out something simple, that can be implemented in a few weeks.  When that's done, we show it off and see if we can get some interest.  If so, we'll start work on a bigger, bolder version 2, with more ambition22:42
MootBotACTION received:  Shane, Popey and I go and work out something simple, that can be implemented in a few weeks.  When that's done, we show it off and see if we can get some interest.  If so, we'll start work on a bigger, bolder version 2, with more ambition22:42
Rocket2DMnyeah andrew_sayers , that is a good point.  It can work well for projects hosted on LP, but not for Ubuntu in general22:42
mdke[ACTION] Shane, Popey and andrew_sayers go and work out something simple, that can be implemented in a few weeks.  When that's done, we show it off and see if we can get some interest.  If so, we'll start work on a bigger, bolder version 2, with more ambition22:42
Shane_FaganOk good22:42
MootBotACTION received:  Shane, Popey and andrew_sayers go and work out something simple, that can be implemented in a few weeks.  When that's done, we show it off and see if we can get some interest.  If so, we'll start work on a bigger, bolder version 2, with more ambition22:42
mdkeok, let's move on22:43
mdkemaybe one last agenda item, the meeting has been going awhile :)22:43
mdke[TOPIC] Discussion about the new draft of the HUC front page, which adds the Ubuntu Signpost, and removes a lot of other content22:43
MootBotNew Topic:  Discussion about the new draft of the HUC front page, which adds the Ubuntu Signpost, and removes a lot of other content22:43
Shane_FaganI think this has already been covered ?22:44
andrew_sayersI hope this won't take too long.  Basically, what are the remaining objections to updating the front page?22:44
mdkenone here22:44
DougieRichardsonnor here22:44
andrew_sayersOkay, that was easy :)22:44
technomensch<<hits saples button>>22:45
Shane_Faganmdke: maybe 1 more topic22:45
mdkeI'll reply on the list to andrew_sayers' last post because I'd like to develop a bit further the structural ideas of the signpost22:45
mdkebut it's too long for this evening I think22:45
mdkeShane_Fagan: yeah22:45
andrew_sayersmdke: update the front page in the meantime, or not?22:45
mdkeandrew_sayers: yeah, sure22:45
andrew_sayersRight, good.  Structure etc. may depend on the result of the previous item.22:46
mdke[TOPIC] Discussion of the use of screencasts in Ubuntu documentation, and the future of screencasts.ubuntu.com22:46
MootBotNew Topic:  Discussion of the use of screencasts in Ubuntu documentation, and the future of screencasts.ubuntu.com22:46
popeythis could be a long one22:46
popeyI dont mind bumping to the next meeting given how late it is22:46
popeyor take it back to the list22:46
* popey is easy22:46
technomenschI motion this be moved to its own separate meeting at a later time22:46
Shane_FaganMaybe move it to the list22:46
* DougieRichardson nods22:47
mdkejust to note that there has always been a lot of enthusiasm for integrating screencasts with the docs22:47
popeyi can mail the list with the "vision" I have for screencasts in ubuntu docs and we can take it from there?22:47
Rocket2DMnsounds good to me22:47
mdkepopey: great idea22:47
Shane_Faganpopey: +122:47
Davieyprediscussion can't be a bad thing :)22:47
popeythanks for your input Daviey :)22:48
mdke[ACTION] popey to email the list with his vision for screencasts in the docs22:48
MootBotACTION received:  popey to email the list with his vision for screencasts in the docs22:48
Davieypopey: :)22:48
Shane_FaganId like to get involved in the screencasts team too22:48
mdkeI think implementing screencasts in the docs will be the easy part22:48
mdkethe hard part is the screencast project itself, I guess22:49
technomenschit's the actually making the screecasts that would be hard part22:49
Shane_Faganmdke: so is that it?22:49
Shane_FaganThe end of the meeting22:49
mdkeah, for the meeting22:49
mdkeyes, let's wrap it up, unless there are objections22:50
andrew_sayersActually, one quick thing - Shane_Fagan and popey, how would you prefer for us to talk?22:50
popeyhowever, I'm everywhere22:50
Shane_FaganEmail for me22:50
mdkepopey is the most online person around22:50
Davieymdke: popey is made up of 3 people.22:51
popeyDaviey: I know it may _look_ like that..22:51
mdkethat's what I figured22:51
technomenschin 3 dif time zones even22:51
mdkecovers all the timezones22:51
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:51.22:51
Rocket2DMn\o/ we survived!22:52
mdkeI'll do the log/summary and post to the list22:52
popeythanks mdke22:52
technomenschnow that the meeting is over, just thought you'd like to know I threw up a checklist22:52
mdkethanks everyone22:52
technomenschfor the categories project22:52
Rocket2DMntechnomensch, link?22:52
technomenschthe same concept page22:52
* DougieRichardson waves goodnight22:52
Shane_Faganmdke: Could you help me out with the video editing docs, im a little stuck on dockbook22:52
mdkeShane_Fagan: let's move to #ubuntu-doc22:52
technomenschI think I got everything22:52
* mdke out22:53
technomenschnite all.  andrew, we'll talk later22:53
* DougieRichardson out22:53

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