[15:39] <Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: howdy
[15:39] <Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: wondering if you got my last email regarding getting involved in debian/ubuntu slapd
[16:01]  * mathiaz waves
[16:01] <Daviey> o/
[16:01] <Sam-I-Am> howdy
[16:01] <jmdault> hello
[16:01] <nijaba> o/
[16:01] <Sam-I-Am> <- new to these meetings
[16:02] <mathiaz> let's get this started
[16:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <nealmcb> o/
[16:02] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:03] <mathiaz> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090728
[16:03] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU tracking on server-related packages
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU tracking on server-related packages
[16:04] <Daviey> \o/
[16:04] <mathiaz> so I talked to bdmurray
[16:05] <mathiaz> and I've got the script to generate a list of bugs that have been fixed
[16:05] <Daviey> This was a point i raised a few meetings ago.. where certain SRU releases that were reasonably crucial were taking possibly too long to hit the mirrors..  The idea was, should -server team either help or chase
[16:06] <mathiaz> Daviey: I don't remember exactly what your proposal was. However this topic was about making sure that bug fixed in the development version that are worthy are updated in stable releases
[16:07] <mathiaz> Daviey: the issue of doing the actual testing is another matter
[16:07] <mathiaz> I'll publish a weekly updated list of bugs that we can start reviewing in this weekly meeting
[16:07] <Daviey> ok
[16:08] <mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
[16:08] <mathiaz> nope - let's move on
[16:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Mysql 5.1 in karmic main
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mysql 5.1 in karmic main
[16:08] <Daviey> mathiaz: Well the actual script, does it just show packages the -server team care about.. or all SRU releases?
[16:09] <mathiaz> Daviey: only package relevant to -server
[16:09] <mathiaz> Daviey: these bugs are not yet on the SRU list
[16:09] <Daviey> great
[16:10] <mathiaz> so I've been working on getting MySQL 5.1 in main
[16:10] <mathiaz> zul filed the MIR
[16:10] <zul> indeed
[16:11] <mathiaz> the MIR team is working on the request
[16:11] <mathiaz> and I've been working on updating the package
[16:11] <mathiaz> so I expect Mysql 5.1 to be moved to main by this end of the week
[16:12] <mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
[16:13] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:13] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Asterisk
[16:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Asterisk
[16:13] <mathiaz> jmdault: ^^?
[16:13] <jmdault> Debian put net packages last week
[16:13] <mathiaz> jmdault: any news?
[16:13] <jmdault> asterisk-1.6.2.0~dfsg~beta3
[16:14] <jmdault> this replaces the previous 1.6.0 version
[16:14] <mathiaz> jmdault: is it in a good state for karmic?
[16:15] <Daviey> I've sucessfully built asterisk-1.6.2 on karmic with not too much difficulty
[16:15] <jmdault> It looks good
[16:15] <mathiaz> Daviey: using the new debian packages?
[16:15] <Daviey> yah
[16:15] <Daviey> Well debian svn
[16:15] <Daviey> which is equal
[16:15] <jmdault> I had some problems with dahdi 2.0-rc versions, some kernel panics
[16:16] <mathiaz> Could you remind me why 1.6.2 should be used instead of the current version in karmic?
[16:16] <jmdault> I tried dahdi 2.0 final, and it fixes all problems
[16:16] <jmdault> mathiaz: current version in Karmic is 1.4.21
[16:16] <jmdault> works with the old zaptel drivers, which are obsolete
[16:17] <jmdault> the current 1.4 series is 1.4.26
[16:17] <Daviey> Whilst 1.4 is still stable and maintained upstream, we really should look to get onto the 1.6 release prior next LTS IMO
[16:17] <Sam-I-Am> i'd agree in seeing 1.6 in the next LTS... so its not really old when they deprecate 1.4
[16:17] <jmdault> We have to switch to dahdi drivers
[16:17] <jmdault> That's the important thing
[16:17] <jmdault> =)
[16:18] <mathiaz> so IIUC the main argument is that we should have 1.6 in the next LTS and it already is available from debian unstable
[16:18] <Daviey> Now dahdi has been out a while.. i can't see too many issues.  Third party FXO cards drivers seem to work nicely now.
[16:19] <jmdault> Only problem with 1.6 is that Debian haven't packaged the addons yet
[16:19] <Daviey> Is it a concern having a zaptel to dahdi migration script as part of upgrade?  It not too much to do it manually, but inversely - should we try and automate it
[16:19] <Daviey> perhaps too much work.
[16:19] <jmdault> so no mysql or mp3 support
[16:19] <jmdault> but it's in svn
[16:19] <jmdault> so packageable
[16:20] <jmdault> Daviey: migration from 1.4 to 1.6 is not straightforward, as the syntax has changed a lot
[16:20] <mathiaz> jmdault: right - let's focus first on merging the pacakge from debian
[16:20] <Daviey> jmdault: "a lot".. not sure that i fully agree there.. 1.2 -> 1.4 was lots
[16:21] <jmdault> Daviey: do you think you could come up with migration scripts?
[16:21] <jmdault> and support them? ;-)
[16:22] <Daviey> jmdault: The migration aspect i was talking about was zaptel to dahdi
[16:22] <Daviey> nah :)
[16:22] <mathiaz> ok - so to summarize:
[16:22] <mathiaz> astersik 1.6 should be merged from unstable into karmic
[16:23] <mathiaz> the diff doesn't seem to big
[16:23] <mathiaz> the diff doesn't seem too big
[16:23] <Daviey> There is one issue..  we will need to merge pwlib aswell
[16:24] <mathiaz> Daviey: pwlib? I don't see it as a package in debian
[16:24] <jmdault> there's a whole stack we should merge
[16:24]  * nealmcb wishes projects didn't change syntax without easy migration strategies in place
[16:24] <mathiaz> Daviey: what's the actual name?
[16:24] <mathiaz> jmdault: do you have a list of packages that should be merged?
[16:24] <jmdault> Here is a list for 1.4:
[16:24] <jmdault> https://launchpad.net/~revolution-linux/+archive/asterisk
[16:25] <jmdault> I don't know yet which ones will work on 1.6
[16:25] <Daviey> openh323 won't build on karmic unless pwlib is is merged
[16:25] <Daviey> openh323 is a build dep (of choice) of asterisk
[16:26] <Daviey> other than that.. it's out of the box rebuild
[16:26] <mathiaz> ok - so to move on it seems that we first need to come up with a list of all the packages that need to be updated/merged from debian
[16:26] <mathiaz> could someone generate such a list and put it a wiki page?
[16:26] <Daviey> I'm happy to, unless jmdault wants to :)
[16:27] <jmdault> Daviey: go ahead =)
[16:27] <mathiaz> [ACTION] Daviey to generate a list of packages to be updated for the asterisk stack
[16:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to generate a list of packages to be updated for the asterisk stack
[16:27] <mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
[16:27] <Daviey> slight other note.. i did speak with debian-voip about dkms.. they are not against the idea.. but tbh, they weren't overally familair with the pros/cons
[16:27] <jmdault> Daviey: I've spent the last week with dahdi issues.
[16:28] <Daviey> jmdault: :(
[16:28] <jmdault> Daviey: but dahdi issues have been resolved with the 2.0 final
[16:28] <Daviey> handy.
[16:28] <jmdault> Daviey: Debian has 2.0 rc3 or rc5
[16:28] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on
[16:28] <Daviey> jmdault: They are aware of the new release.
[16:29] <mathiaz> is there anything else related to last week minutes?
[16:29] <jmdault> Daviey: who did you talk to?
[16:29] <Daviey> jmdault: I'll grab you during the week.
[16:29] <Daviey>  / after meeting
[16:29] <jmdault> ok
[16:29] <mathiaz> that's all I had from last week minutes
[16:30] <mathiaz> Let's move on to the next point in the agenda:
[16:30] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server tips - How to implement?
[16:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server tips - How to implement?
[16:30] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^^?
[16:30] <nijaba> so we now have a list of potential tips
[16:30] <nijaba> I am thinking into turning them into a fortune file
[16:30] <Sam-I-Am> do you have a link to them?
[16:30] <nijaba> package them
[16:30] <Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips
[16:31] <nijaba> and then change motd so that it call "fortune /path/to/the/file"
[16:31] <kirkland> nijaba: excuse my ignorance...  pam already supports a fortune file?
[16:31] <kirkland> nijaba: or where would you put this fortune call?
[16:31] <kirkland> nijaba: i was going to suggest putting it in /etc/update-motd.d ;-)
[16:31] <Sam-I-Am> since tips would likely get added/updated on an ongoing basis between releases, would newer versions of the package get distributed with usual updates?
[16:32] <nijaba> kirkland: well, it is really to bring up this kind of question that I wanted to have this topic here
[16:32] <kirkland> nijaba: fair enough
[16:32] <jpds> kirkland: ~/.bashrc ?
[16:32] <Daviey> would it be out of bounds, to have it retrieve a list via http?
[16:32] <nijaba> kirkland: kirkland: update-motd.d sound good to me
[16:32] <kirkland> jpds: not bashrc
[16:32] <kirkland> jpds: too many other shells in use
[16:32] <mathiaz> Daviey: some systems don't have access to the internet
[16:33] <nijaba> Daviey: yes, lots of servers do not have http access
[16:33] <Daviey> jpds: if anywhere, surely /etc/bash.bashrc for systemwide?
[16:33] <mathiaz> Daviey: and it would slow down the login process
[16:33] <kirkland> Daviey: that would have to be configurable, at the very least
[16:33] <Sam-I-Am> Daviey: thats why i was thinking during updates... the machine would have internet access for that usually... or access to an internal mirror.
[16:33] <Daviey> mathiaz: cached.. not retrieve on login
[16:33] <kirkland> i think we just merge and release the tips like any other package
[16:33] <Daviey> ok
[16:33] <kirkland> we should be very aggressive about gathering tips up to beta
[16:34] <kirkland> and very agressive about reviewing them thereafter
[16:34] <Sam-I-Am> what kind of submission/review process would we have?
[16:34] <Sam-I-Am> suggestion box + commit by ubuntu-server folks?
[16:34] <nijaba> Sam-I-Am: published and reviewed on the mentioned wiki page
[16:34] <nijaba> Sam-I-Am: a basic set of rules are availabel at the top
[16:35] <kirkland> it would help if the sponsor/upload would happen in a large batch
[16:35] <kirkland> with the submission/review being handled more atomically, more frequently than the upload to the archive
[16:35] <nijaba> kirkland: not sure I understand your point
[16:35] <nijaba> kirkland: ah, ok
[16:35] <kirkland> nijaba: such that we don't upload one new package, version bump, per fortune added
[16:35] <nijaba> right
[16:35] <kirkland> nijaba: we add 50 at a time or something
[16:36] <Sam-I-Am> maybe a monthly package version roll?
[16:36] <Daviey> sounds sensible
[16:36] <kirkland> nijaba: say once or twice per week, up to beta
[16:36] <nijaba> kirkland: I would be surprised if we reach 50 soon
[16:36] <Daviey> well we could all certainly throw 5 in a week, i imagine.
[16:36] <kirkland> nijaba: what's the submission process currently?
[16:36] <kirkland> nijaba: and what's your target number of fortunes?
[16:37] <nijaba> publish it on the wiki, collective review just before string freeze here
[16:37] <Sam-I-Am> would this be a default package?  like... what happens if someone decides to replace the motd/fortune with their own.
[16:37] <nijaba> Sam-I-Am: they can modify the update-motd.d script to tehir leisure
[16:37] <Daviey> nijaba: Then we really should hammer for translations..
[16:38] <nijaba> Daviey: right
[16:38] <nijaba> any volunteer to create the base package?
[16:38] <Daviey> nijaba: it's your pet project, don't you want it? :)
[16:39] <nijaba> kirkland: once the base package is done, can you do the motd?
[16:39] <kirkland> nijaba: try using "quickly"
[16:39] <kirkland> nijaba: rickspencer just demo'd it to me, it's awesome :-)
[16:39] <kirkland> nijaba: to create the packaging, i thought that's what he just showed me....
[16:39] <nijaba> Daviey: yes, but (a) I am not a good packager (b) have no upload rights (c) is an easy one for anyone that want's to have a first package
[16:39]  * kirkland might be confused
[16:40] <Sam-I-Am> couldnt you more or less take the existing fortune package and change the fortune contents?
[16:40] <nijaba> Sam-I-Am: well, no, I want a separate package for the ubuntu specific tips
[16:40] <nijaba> Sam-I-Am: so that it is more granular to update
[16:40] <kirkland> nijaba: fortunes-ubuntu ?
[16:41] <Daviey> fortunes-ubuntu-en
[16:41] <kirkland> nijaba: i like Sam-I-Am's ide
[16:41] <kirkland> idea
[16:41] <Sam-I-Am> or alternatively just add a server tips option to the package
[16:41] <nijaba> kirkland: of modifying the existing fortune package?
[16:41] <Daviey> well if nobody else wants to do it, /me throws his hand in the air o/
[16:42] <kirkland> nijaba: clone something like fortunes-debian-hints
[16:42] <Sam-I-Am> yeah
[16:42]  * kirkland high fives Daviey 
[16:42] <nijaba> kirkland: ah, yes, that's exactly what i think needs to be done
[16:42] <nijaba> Daviey: great!
[16:42] <Daviey> it would be  /nice/ to improve the submisson process
[16:42] <Sam-I-Am> would there be a script to convert approved hints into the package file format?
[16:42] <Daviey> i mean, anyone can add one right now
[16:43] <Sam-I-Am> or just commit a text file...
[16:43] <mathiaz> ok - sounds like we have  a plan
[16:43] <Daviey> perhaps a submission is a LP bug?
[16:43] <nijaba> kirkland: would you be willing to help for the update-motd.d part?
[16:43] <kirkland> nijaba: sure
[16:43] <nijaba> kirkland: thanks :)
[16:43] <kirkland> nijaba: it's a one liner in the packaging
[16:43] <nijaba> kirkland: I bet
[16:44] <kirkland> we should discuss, though, where in the motd it should go
[16:44] <kirkland> 00-header  50-landscape-sysinfo  90-updates-available  91-release_upgrade  99-reboot-required
[16:44] <kirkland> those are ordered
[16:44] <mathiaz> [ACTION] Daviey to take a look at creating a package base on the fortune* package to include server tips.
[16:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to take a look at creating a package base on the fortune* package to include server tips.
[16:44] <mathiaz> anything else to add on this topic?
[16:44] <kirkland> i suggest somewhere before 90
[16:44] <kirkland> ie, leave the updates available, release upgrade available, and reboot required at the very end
[16:44]  * nijaba votes for 60-fortunes-ubuntu
[16:45] <Daviey> mathiaz: streamlining submisson process.. currently adding to the wiki won't scale to a few hundred tips
[16:45] <Daviey> IMO
[16:45] <Daviey> and approval etc.
[16:45] <mathiaz> Daviey: sure. We'll discuss that issue once the problem will arise
[16:45] <kirkland> Daviey: somewhere after landscape seems reasonable
[16:45] <nijaba> Daviey: once we have a package/project on lp, we can certainly use bugs
[16:45] <mathiaz> Daviey: but yes. The current process may not scale.
[16:45] <Sam-I-Am> i'd say closer to the bottom so it doesnt disappear with the normal stuff
[16:45] <Daviey> ok
[16:46]  * Daviey satisfied
[16:46] <mathiaz> anything else to add on this topic?
[16:47] <mathiaz> nope - let's move on
[16:47] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[16:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[16:47] <mathiaz> anything else to add/discuss/propose/comment on?
[16:47] <Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: got a question about involvement with slapd
[16:48] <Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: i'm the one who's bugging you on email about getting involved... and the process for packaging/merging
[16:48] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I've received your message
[16:48] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: right now in the ball is in the Debian maintainer camp
[16:48] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I'll be talking to slangasek tomorrow about the work on cn=config and slapd-cfg
[16:48] <Sam-I-Am> ok
[16:49] <Sam-I-Am> so the ubuntu specific patches are maintained on LP?
[16:49] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: the code is on LP and there is a TODO file in the src tre
[16:49] <mathiaz> tree
[16:49] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: Server tips - How to implement?
[16:49] <Sam-I-Am> ok... trying to make sense of it all.
[16:49] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: https://code.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+junk/slapd-scripts-upstream
[16:50] <Sam-I-Am> i read through your stuff on there
[16:50] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: you mean ubuntu patches to slapd?
[16:50] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: they're not maintained in LP - they're part of the ubuntu package
[16:50] <Sam-I-Am> oh yeah... that part... how the whole debian->merge->ubuntu->add ubuntu patches->release bit works
[16:51] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: that may take some time to explain
[16:51] <Sam-I-Am> ha, figured :)
[16:51] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: but I basically work from the pkg-openldap-maintainer svn tree
[16:52] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: and merge stuff from there
[16:52] <Sam-I-Am> thats the alioth svn?
[16:52] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: yes
[16:52] <Sam-I-Am> where are the patches specific to ubuntu stored?
[16:53] <Sam-I-Am> like... cn=config
[16:53] <Sam-I-Am> and nssov
[16:53] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: in the ubuntu packages itself
[16:53] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: there isn't a public branch for it
[16:53] <Sam-I-Am> ahh ok, that explains the missing piece
[16:53] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: locally I'm using a bzr loom to handle the different patches
[16:53] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: however I need to check if I could push the bzr looms to LP
[16:53] <Sam-I-Am> ok
[16:53] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I don't think it works yet
[16:54] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: if you wanna contribute patches to ubuntu, I'd suggest to branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/openldap
[16:54] <mathiaz> and then submit the branch for review in LP
[16:54] <Sam-I-Am> ok
[16:55] <mathiaz> anything else to add?
[16:55] <Sam-I-Am> although some of this stuff needs to get tossed into debian...
[16:55] <Sam-I-Am> its different for me dealing with two slightly different distros
[16:55] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: yes - development in ubuntu will continue
[16:55] <Daviey> next?
[16:56] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: right - but I'm working closely with the debian maitnainer
[16:56] <mathiaz> Daviey: sure
[16:56] <Daviey> Default Apache homepage.. Does anyone else think the default we are shipping, "It Works!" isn't as slick as some other distros which have pretty defaults?
[16:56] <Sam-I-Am> cool, thanks
[16:56] <mathiaz> Daviey: this has been discussed multiple times so far
[16:56] <Daviey> i must have missed this :)
[16:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: https://launchpad.net/bugs/89364
[16:57] <mathiaz> Daviey: see the bug above for the whole discussion
[16:57] <mathiaz> we're almost out of time for this meeting
[16:58] <mathiaz> Daviey: so I'd rather not start a discussion on this now
[16:58] <Daviey> ok
[16:58] <mathiaz> Daviey: if you have new arguments - add them to the bug.
[16:58] <mathiaz> anything else to add before we wrap up?
[16:58] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:58] <mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
[16:59] <Sam-I-Am> sounds good
[16:59] <jmdault> great
[16:59] <mathiaz> great then
[16:59] <mathiaz> see you all next week, same time, same place
[16:59] <mathiaz> thanks
[17:00] <Sam-I-Am> seeya
[17:00] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
[17:03] <Daviey> thanks
[17:06] <nealmcb> tips
[17:07] <nealmcb> ... I just edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips to try to clarify some of them and link to launchpad rather than the wiki
[18:09] <flint_> Does anyone know when the Edubuntu meeting is scheduled for? This information is not apparent on the fridge...
[21:09] <Pricey> Anyone else around?
[21:09] <bernard-opic> Yes
[21:10] <Pricey> (For hte EMEA membership meeting)
[21:10] <bernard-opic> that's it
[21:10] <Pricey> will ping everyone in a sec
[21:11] <Sarvatt> I'm here as well, just barely made it home in time.
[21:12] <Pricey> Seveas: markvandenborre stgraber phanatic PING
[21:12] <markvandenborre> pong
[21:12] <phanatic> pong
[21:13] <Seveas> pang
[21:13] <Pricey> Don't think Matthew is online.
[21:13] <Seveas> is it that time of the month again? :)
[21:13] <Pricey> Sorted, that's 4!
[21:15] <Seveas> so, who are todays victims?
[21:15] <Pricey> So bernard-opic is first. Would you like to introduce yourself?
[21:15] <bernard-opic> well, first good evening all
[21:16] <bernard-opic> you may have read a bit about me at Launchpad and the wiki, so I can just explain what makes me ask to be a member
[21:17] <bernard-opic> as you probably noticed, I switched from Windows to Ubuntu halh and a year ago, and I'm still here
[21:17] <Seveas> I'm going for -1 based on no documentation of contributions. Bernard, please make sure you come to these meetings well prepared with documented contributions and testimonials from other people in the community
[21:18] <bernard-opic> well, contribution were correctly listed on the Wiki and Launchpad, as required, would you like details then? I'm a novice here
[21:19] <bernard-opic> my last one has just been added to Ubuntu Wiki today by Marc -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KnowledgeBase
[21:20] <bernard-opic> so, I can rewrite here part of if
[21:20] <bernard-opic> Spreading Ubuntu: Since I like that distribution I use everyday, I help spreading Ubuntu, mainly trough my personal blog, and more recently via Ubuntu & Co, my new blog at ZDNet France.
[21:20] <bernard-opic> http://www.zdnet.fr/blogs/ubuntu-co/
[21:20] <bernard-opic> Helping Ubuntu users: From time to time, I write some tutorials like this one about Ubuntu Netbook Remix install with ImageWriter or this one explaining how to solve sound issues with Intrepid.
[21:20] <Seveas> your wikipage only links to your blogs, does not mention any contributions to Ubuntu or cooperation with other members. You also have no testimonials from other members of teams you work with, which definitely is a requirement if most of your contributions are in the advocacy area
[21:20] <bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/2009/04/23/installer-ubuntu-netbook-remix-avec-imagewriter/
[21:21] <bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/2008/11/19/retablir-le-son-sous-ubuntu-810-intrepid-ibex/
[21:21] <bernard-opic> News translation: Sometime, I also translate in French some posts from Mark Shuttleworth blog, and more regularly, the Ubuntu Security News.
[21:21] <bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/category/mark-shuttleworth/
[21:21] <bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/category/ubuntu-security-notices/
[21:21] <bernard-opic> here it is
[21:21] <bernard-opic> does that help?
[21:21] <bernard-opic> ok Seveas
[21:22] <markvandenborre> if you're doing quite some ubuntu related promotion work, how do you relate to ubuntu-fr.org?
[21:22] <Seveas> no. How are we supposed to know these blogposts are even read for instance? Or even what they say (not all of us speak french)
[21:22] <bernard-opic> Marc Deslauriers adding my translation of the USN is somewhere a kind of recommendation, no?
[21:23] <bernard-opic> Claire Newman also approved my translation of Mark Shuttleworth blog
[21:23] <stgraber> Pricey: pong (sort of, quite busy here, sorry)
[21:23] <bernard-opic> I just considered that is was some usefull cnotribution, at least for spreading Ubuntu
[21:24] <Pricey> stgraber: emea meeting right now :)
[21:24] <Seveas> Depends on how long you've been doing that and the quality of the translations. And the value of the contribution depends on whether the articles are read. That's something you should detail on your wikipage *beforehand* and not during a meeting
[21:24] <stgraber> Pricey: yeah, my cell told me so :)
[21:24] <bernard-opic> ok Seveas
[21:24] <bernard-opic> as you want
[21:24] <bernard-opic> :-)
[21:25] <bernard-opic> I'm here to help
[21:25] <bernard-opic> just
[21:25] <Pricey> bernard-opic: Get people to write on your wiki page, I'm not sure where this approval is from Claire for example.
[21:25] <bernard-opic> @Pricey, I can forward you her mail :-)
[21:26] <czajkowski> bernard-opic: see pm
[21:26] <Pricey> bernard-opic: Its best to get people to write testimonials on your wiki page to vouch for your work.
[21:27] <bernard-opic> regarding the success of that translations, for example, ubuntu-fr.org frives me hundreds of visitors each days,
[21:27] <bernard-opic> spreading Ubuntu at my new blog at ZDNet France goes fine too
[21:27] <Pricey> bernard-opic: Including people from the ubuntu-fr loco :) Even better, they could vouch for you during a meeting.
[21:27] <Pricey> I'm afraid I am also going to go -1.
[21:28] <bernard-opic> ok then, we could see that later may be
[21:28] <Seveas> markvandenborre, phanatic, stgraber?
[21:28]  * BUGabundo waves
[21:29] <bernard-opic> vouching for me :-) I asked support but it's holliday time
[21:29] <phanatic> some testimonials would really help you, so please come back for the next meeting: +0
[21:29] <stgraber> looking at the wiki now, hang on a sec
[21:29] <bernard-opic> ok, thanks for your comments, I'll try again may be
[21:30] <markvandenborre> 0 from me, I'd rather see more explicit testimonials (cooperation with/members of ubuntu-fr.org), and more work within wiki.ubuntu.com for example as opposed to personal site
[21:30] <stgraber> hmm, all that was said above makes sense for me. I'd also like to see more testimonials and well described contributions (like what you said on IRC and these e-mails), then come back at a later meeting. -1
[21:30] <markvandenborre> that's not -1, mind you, and I would really encourage you to take this up again soon
[21:31] <markvandenborre> I do have a feeling that you are doing valuable work!
[21:31] <bernard-opic> thanks mark, that's nice from you
[21:32] <Seveas> That's 5 votes, I'm afraid you'll have to try again later bernard-opic. I agree with mark that you could be doing valuable work, but we really need to be sure before we can grant Ubuntu membership. Hope to see you soon
[21:32] <Seveas> Sarvatt, you're up next, please introduce yourself
[21:32] <bernard-opic> Thanks for your attention, bye for now
[21:32] <Sarvatt> Nice to meet you all! I've been involved in ubuntu development since april and have been running the xorg-edgers PPA as well as contributing xorg packages to ubuntu for the past few months. Outside of packaging, I spend a lot of time helping out with bug fixes and helping people in irc (#ubuntu-x and #ubuntu+1 channels usually). Mostly trying to help with problems people have with things such as intel KMS.
[21:33] <Sarvatt> I realize I haven't been active in the community for very long but I hope my contributions can make up for that in the consideration of my membership. My launchpad profile is here- https://edge.launchpad.net/~sarvatt and my wiki page is here- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sarvatt
[21:33] <Seveas> Your contributions look very nice, and it's always good to see someone doing the scary stuff that X provides
[21:34] <Seveas> But (there's always a but), I'd really like to see someone like Bryce say "Yeah, he's doing a good job" on your wikipage, since I cannot really judge the quality of your contribution
[21:36] <Sarvatt> he was the one that suggested I go through this process and looked over my wiki page before I did it, I made a mistake not asking him to say something on there :(
[21:37] <Seveas> heh
[21:37] <BUGabundo> I would like to say that Sarvatt has been doing a great job on #ubuntu+1, provide *huge* support, debug, and intel on video area.
[21:37] <BUGabundo> we all in there have learned a lot from him!
[21:38] <Pricey> Sarvatt: Are you aware of the process of becoming an "Ubuntu Contributing Developer"? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[21:38] <stgraber> I have been around on ubuntu-x for a while for various reasons and Sarvatt is clearly active there and helps quite a lot with package testing and bugfixing for Karmic, +1
[21:38] <stgraber> though it'd have been great to have a comment from Bryce on the wiki page
[21:39] <Seveas> Sarvatt, did he suggest that in a public irc channel/mailing list? If so, the logs of that will do for me :)
[21:39] <Sarvatt> Pricey: Yes I am, I want to give it some more time before I apply for MOTU but I am very interested in being a member. Mostly I am not very interested in universe packages, everything I help out with is in main besides intel-gpu-tools.
[21:40] <Sarvatt> Yes, one moment let me dig up a log for #ubuntu-x
[21:40] <Seveas> Sarvatt, just the timestamp please. I'll check irclogs.ubuntu.com :)
[21:40] <Sarvatt> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/07/09/%23ubuntu-x.html
[21:41] <Sarvatt> 19:19
[21:41] <Seveas> ok, +1
[21:42] <Seveas> (not just based on that, also on the comments from BUGabundo and stgraber)
[21:42] <Seveas> (and the documented work)
[21:42] <BUGabundo> nods
[21:42] <Pricey> Sarvatt: I see him suggesting you try to become a Developer!
[21:43] <Pricey> 19:28 <bryce> you've done considerably more than the typical motu applicant, you're definitely well qualified.
[21:43] <BUGabundo> I was trying to ping cwillu, but is away
[21:43] <Sarvatt> Yes, but he also mentions that I should work on having more people sponsor my uploads because I only have him and tjaalton
[21:43] <BUGabundo> cwillu also has large experience on X packages, and has worked with Sarvatt
[21:43] <Seveas> Pricey, so that should qualfiy for a membership testimonial :)
[21:44] <Pricey> Seveas: hmm?
[21:44] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:45] <phanatic> +1, great to have people here who can comment on your work
[21:45] <Seveas> Pricey, if a core developer likes Bryce thinks Sarvatt is ready to become a motu, with that extra compliment attached, I'd say Bryce vouches for Sarvatt for membership as well.
[21:45] <nealmcb> http://www.zigbee.org/
[21:46] <BUGabundo> not trying to put Sarvatt work down, but I would like to add, that AFAIR he started his participation on #ubuntu+1 just this cycle
[21:46] <Seveas> nealmcb, there's a meeting here now. Please take random chatter elsewhere
[21:46] <BUGabundo> nealmcb: ?
[21:46] <nealmcb> sorry about that....
[21:46] <Sarvatt> Yes, I joined the community in april like I said
[21:46] <Pricey> BUGabundo: My logs show it starting in June for #ubuntu+1, yes.
[21:47] <Seveas> BUGabundo, yes, since april. That's 4 months now, with impressive contributions.
[21:47] <Pricey> Yep I think with that little gem from bryce and the other testimonials I'm happy to give a +1 too.
[21:47] <Seveas> ok, that's +5. Welcome aboard!
[21:47] <BUGabundo> I can't vote, but if I could, he would get my +1 :)
[21:47] <Sarvatt> #intel-gfx is where I did most of my support, then I moved on to #ubuntu-x and try to help out in #ubuntu+1 now as well
[21:48] <Sarvatt> thank you everyone!
[21:48] <BUGabundo> congrats Sarvatt
[21:48] <Seveas> "Robert Hooker (sarvatt) has been added as a member of this team."
[21:48] <bernard-opic> Congratulations!
[21:48] <Seveas> so launchpad now agrees with the meeting. Meeting ends :)
[21:49] <Seveas> I probably won't be here sept. 1st, so I'll see you all in October :)
[21:50] <gQuigs> Congrats!
[21:50] <BUGabundo> enjoy your vacations Seveas
[21:50] <Seveas> hah, vacations
[21:50] <Seveas> I wish :)
[21:50] <Seveas> I'll be painting and wallpapering and laying floors in my new house :)
[21:50] <BUGabundo> me too
[21:51] <BUGabundo> no vacations for me, this year :(
[21:53] <gQuigs> Community Council meeting up next?
[21:54] <Technoviking> gQuigs: should be
[22:00] <Technoviking> Anyone else here for the CC meeting? elmo?
[22:00] <elmo> Technoviking: hi
[22:00] <elmo> sabdfl should be coming
[22:00] <Technoviking> elmo: greets
[22:00] <elmo> I've been exchanging SMSes with him about it
[22:01] <Technoviking> Think Daniel is still on vacation, have not heard from mako.
[22:02] <elmo> that's going to make quorum hard
[22:02] <Technoviking> yup, we need some new blood:)
[22:02] <sabdfl> evening all
[22:03] <Technoviking> sabdfl: evening
[22:03] <BUGabundo> hey sabdfl
[22:03] <elmo> sabdfl: hey, technoviking and I are here, but that's it so far
[22:03] <sabdfl> dholbach's on holiday
[22:04] <sabdfl> mdke?
[22:04] <elmo> he's been idle a while, not sure he's around, but I've pinged him
[22:04] <elmo> we've not heard from mako either
[22:06] <sabdfl> well, we have agenda items from mdke that we'll have to carry over
[22:06] <sabdfl> sladen: ?
[22:07] <sabdfl> ok, current status of the election, we have many nominations
[22:07] <sabdfl> currently discussing on CC list how to whittle down to roughly 12-15 candidates that I'll nominate
[22:07] <sabdfl> i believe the election will start in a week or so
[22:08] <sabdfl> elmo: i believe you're the only person who unsubscribed from the list on time
[22:08] <sabdfl> very good of you, but we're grandfathered till the election
[22:08] <sabdfl> that's all from me on the election front
[22:08] <sabdfl> any other thoughts on the process?
[22:09] <sabdfl> ok
[22:09] <gQuigs> just curious, how many nominations total?
[22:09] <sabdfl> stgraber: around?
[22:09] <sabdfl> gQuigs: including existing CC members, perhaps 17
[22:09] <sabdfl> which is *great*
[22:10] <elmo> sabdfl: (I'm just speed-catching up on archvies)
[22:10] <sabdfl> i'm seeking comments and confirmations on them and will make nominations
[22:10] <sabdfl> elmo: welcome back ;-)
[22:10] <sabdfl> hi matthew
[22:10] <mdke> sorry I'm late
[22:10] <mdke> thanks for the reminder :)
[22:10] <Technoviking> no problem
[22:11] <mdke> I think sabdfl just tried to apste me too much log :)
[22:11] <elmo> haha
[22:11] <sabdfl> oops, got kicked off for flodding mdke with scrollback
[22:11] <mdke> *paste
[22:12] <sabdfl> right, now mdke is up to speed...
[22:13] <mdke> I didn't get much, if there is anything vitally important, perhaps a pastebin; otherwise, just crack on :)
[22:13] <sabdfl> mdke: just sent key bit
[22:14] <elmo> process looks fine to me, FWIW
[22:14] <sabdfl> update on election s tatus for those not on the list
[22:14] <sabdfl> hey mako
[22:14] <elmo> sabdfl: how long will the election run, and any thoughts on where to announce it?
[22:14] <sabdfl> cool! i think we can now actually get stuff done :-)
[22:14] <mdke> thanks sabdfl
[22:15] <sabdfl> elmo: i think dholbach had suggestions along the lines of ubuntu-announce
[22:15] <sabdfl> it's a big election, biggest we've had by far
[22:15] <sabdfl> hmm... now that i think of it, we still have a big gap in terms of election technology
[22:16] <mdke> if there is a choice between candidates, Launchpad may not be the right way to achieve that
[22:16] <mdke> (and it looks like there will be a choice)
[22:16] <Daviey> mako was working on an independant election platform a few years ago i seem to remember.
[22:16] <sabdfl> i'd like to do STC or Condorset
[22:16] <sabdfl> hmm... we'd need some sort of openid+LP-teams
[22:16] <mako> sure, there are a few options
[22:17] <mako> i've build something, but it certainly doesn't integrate with LP and it does not do openid
[22:17] <mako> wikimedia uses a wiki-based plugin which SPI runs for them as outsiders
[22:17] <mako> both do preferential voting (schulz method) which debian also uses
[22:17] <sabdfl> python?
[22:19] <sabdfl> i think openid+teams is easy to add to something in Python
[22:19] <sabdfl> as a fallback, it will be straight vote-for-the-guys-you-want and those who garner the most votes win
[22:19] <sabdfl> which is very average, as these things go
[22:20] <sabdfl> any offers of a better solution?
[22:20] <sabdfl> anyone want to add preferential voting to LP?
[22:20] <sabdfl> it's open source now ;-)
[22:22] <mako> sabdfl: my stuff is in ruby, and i'm sure the mediawiki stuff is in php since it's a mediawiki extension
[22:22] <sabdfl> :-/
[22:22] <sabdfl> ok, we fall back to LP then, and max-votes
[22:23] <sabdfl> i think that's a wrap on the election
[22:23] <mdke> the question is whether we ask people to try and only vote for the right number of candidates or just let them run riot and vote as many "yes" as they like
[22:23] <sabdfl> mdke: want to bring us up to speed on the wiki question?
[22:23] <sabdfl> mdke: hard to enforce
[22:24] <Daviey> Would that be one poll per candidate, or one poll for all.. I seem to remember from the poll system, you could only have one vote per poll.. Or is that resolved?
[22:24] <mdke> yeah, so asking in the first place might distort the vote
[22:25] <sabdfl> Daviey: good question
[22:25] <sabdfl> could be complicated - for example, what if someone gets a lot of no votes?
[22:26] <Daviey> Well the question can be posed, "Which candidate?" and you can't vote no, positve only.  But if one poll, you can only vote A, B or C.. Not A & B
[22:26] <Daviey> I may be mistaken, to be fair.
[22:27] <mako> why wouldn't we allow people to vote for all candidates they approve of
[22:27] <mdke> we'll have to do that, IMO
[22:27] <mako> ok then :)
[22:27] <nellery> will it be yes/no or just yes?
[22:28] <mdke> I've never liked competition between candidates :(
[22:29] <mdke> nellery: I think Launchpad is basically a yes/no system at the moment
[22:29] <czajkowski> mdke: then list the candidates, have a tick box/radio button beside then select say a max of say 4 (or how ever many psoitons there are ) out of how ever many and click submit, final
[22:29] <mdke> czajkowski: right but Launchpad doesn't give us that technology
[22:30] <Technoviking> We also have the problem if all CC members terms ending at once
[22:30] <sabdfl> that's by design now
[22:30] <czajkowski> mdke: it does do tick boxes, like on translations?
[22:30] <czajkowski> click and submit
[22:30] <sabdfl> i think we have to go with what we have, i'll ask dholbach to look into it
[22:31] <mdke> czajkowski: I don't think the poll feature does it
[22:31] <mdke> anyway, we'll look into it and announce in due course
[22:31] <mdke> on the wiki issue, there isn't much to add to the agenda description at the moment. Daniel and I thought that we should write a similar spec to the way it was done for the help wiki, but wanted to raise it here first to identify some of the key issues
[22:32] <mdke> I recall that when we discussed this before, there was a concern about licensing code/artwork
[22:32] <mdke> and similar things that regularly appear on the team wiki
[22:32] <mdke> those things weren't an issue with the help wiki when we decided on the licensing scheme
[22:32] <mdke> my initial feeling is that the amount and variety of content on the team wiki is so vast
[22:33] <sabdfl> the agenda says this was catalysed by fedora blogs?
[22:33] <mdke> that we'd need to give the option to users to specify individual licenses
[22:33] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, correct
[22:33] <sabdfl> is this just a knee-jerk response or is there a real issue?
[22:33] <mdke> I'll dig the link out
[22:34] <mdke> personally, I think that as a matter of principle it would be better if the wiki was licensed. I don't know whether it's actually a huge deal, i.e. if people are actually trying to use content, and failing because of the copyright
[22:35] <mdke> here is a blog post that raised the issue - http://www.stefanoforenza.com/ubuntu-wiki-lock-in/
[22:35] <mdke> another - http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/06/25/ubuntu-wiki-not-shareable/
[22:36] <mdke> ok, so there is an example of someone wanted to use content and failing :)
[22:40] <mako> that seems strange
[22:40] <mdke> I remember when we licensed the help wiki, we did discuss the team wiki issue, but I didn't really want to take it on because it raised a number of different issues which would have slowed down the process of licensing the help wiki. but now may be a good time to sort it out
[22:42] <Technoviking> Should we requite all new material to be CC licensed?
[22:42] <mako> so, with wikimedia's migration to CC BY-SA, many other wikis have switched
[22:42] <sabdfl> i have no issue with CC-BY-SA
[22:42] <mako> i don't see why we wouldn't move everything we can to by-sa
[22:42] <sabdfl> with the ability to do other licenses for code etc
[22:42] <mdke> should we prescribe a license for code?
[22:42] <mako> when we talked about this early on, there wasn't a clear winner in the space but things have basically settled out at this point
[22:43] <sabdfl> agree with mdke, will need to allow for some flexibility on a per-object basis, with guidelines for free-over-non-free
[22:43] <sabdfl> so let's do it
[22:43] <sabdfl> can we have a vote on the following proposal:
[22:44] <sabdfl>  - mdke and dholbach to investigate broadly licensing team wiki as CC-BY-SA (c) Canonical, with the ability to create exceptions as needed for certain content types
[22:44] <sabdfl>  - if no blockers, mdke and dholbach empowered to make the change real
[22:44] <sabdfl> ?
[22:44] <mdke> sounds fine
[22:44] <Technoviking> +1
[22:44] <mdke> it will be another mass email job
[22:44]  * sabdfl can't work mootbot
[22:45] <mdke> just one point, while we're here
[22:45] <elmo> err, not to be the wanna-be lawyer kill joy, but are we talking about copyright assignment here?
[22:45] <elmo> (I notice you say (c) Canonical is why I ask)
[22:45] <mdke> that's what I was going to come on to
[22:45] <mdke> I've been thinking about this in relation to ubuntu-docs, which also says (c) Canonical
[22:45] <mdke> it's actually wrong
[22:45] <mdke> the copyright is of the author
[22:46] <sabdfl> any other way is madness
[22:46] <mdke> I don't mean it's wrong morally
[22:46] <sabdfl> we can't relicense if we can't reach people
[22:46] <mdke> I mean it's incorrect
[22:46] <mdke> the material isn't copyright of canonical
[22:48] <mdke> without copyright assignment, as elmo says
[22:48] <sabdfl> can we address that?
[22:49] <mako> well, we change the license for any future content added and deal with the rest later
[22:49] <mako> by talking to a lawyer for example
[22:49] <mdke> we need to make a distinction between copyright and license
[22:49] <mdke> the license can be changed by agreement, and I think it's reasonable to adopt the approach we did last time - i.e. email everyone and ask for objections
[22:50] <elmo> mdke: I'm not a lawyer, but I think there's some serious and vigourous handwaving involved there
[22:50] <mdke> the copyright can only be reassigned by a written document signed by each author
[22:50]  * mdke nods
[22:50] <elmo> I think if we can find a light weight process to do copyrigt assignment, we should do that
[22:50] <elmo> if only to make the relicensing process more legitmate
[22:50] <mdke> yeah, there is definitely handwaving
[22:51] <elmo> since, is the 2nd time in 5 years we've wanted to do it
[22:51] <mdke> well, we could get a copyright expert to give an opinion on whether there is anyway to get around the "signature" requirement
[22:51] <mdke> but lawyers are naturally cautious creatures, I'm not hopeful
[22:52] <elmo> mdke: even if we used something weaker than a signature, it would imply a level of consent for future reassignment that I think beats are current "mail and pray" approach
[22:52] <sabdfl> ok
[22:52] <sabdfl> we should definitely put it in place for any future edits
[22:52] <sabdfl> and we can include the proposal in the mass mail and call for discussion
[22:53] <sabdfl> deciding where we stand after that
[22:53] <mako> yeah, that sounds good
[22:53] <mdke> elmo: I'm not sure, the mail and pray approach worked before, because if a person doesn't act on the email, they are unlikely to act later; and I would argue that in the event that anyone later tries to enforce copyright, we can immediately remove the relevant content
[22:54] <mdke> elmo: but this is definitely worth some further thought
[22:55] <elmo> mdke: (not if it gets copied onto the CD we can't) - but sorry, we don't need to continue this here + now
[22:55] <elmo> sabdfl: +1
[22:55] <mdke> ok, good point, I'll shut up
[22:55] <mdke> +1 on sabdfl's proposal
[22:55] <sabdfl> mako?
[22:55] <mako> +1 from me
[22:56] <mako> still sounds good :)
[22:56] <sabdfl> ok
[22:56] <elmo> Technoviking: ?
[22:57] <sabdfl> ...said +1 immediately
[22:57] <sabdfl> so that's a mandate for mdke and dholbach, modulo gotchas they uncover
[22:57] <sabdfl> stgraber: around?
[22:57] <mdke> chaps I'm going to have to duck out I'm afraid, sorry for leaving before the end
[22:58] <mdke> you know my views on both Ubuntu One agenda items from email :p
[22:58] <sabdfl> we're wrapping
[22:58] <sladen> groovy
[22:58] <sabdfl> i've no stomach for those now!
[22:58] <mdke> heh
[22:58] <mdke> ok, fine
[22:58] <sabdfl> thanks all
[22:59] <sabdfl> hi sladen
[22:59] <sabdfl> were you waiting?
[22:59] <sladen> sabdfl: nope.
[22:59] <sabdfl> ok
[22:59] <sabdfl> phew
[22:59] <sabdfl> felt briefly bad :-)
[22:59] <sabdfl> thanks all and good night
[22:59] <mdke> night
[22:59] <Technoviking> night
[23:02] <mako> later everyone