[08:53] <slomo> seb128: please sync libtheora from debian/unstable, that NMU contains some useful fixes ;)
[08:54] <seb128> slomo, ok, syncing libgdata too
[08:54] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[08:54] <slomo> seb128: great, and totem should be merged then :)
[08:54] <seb128> hey chrisccoulson
[08:54] <chrisccoulson> hi seb128
[08:54] <chrisccoulson> did you have a good weekend?
[08:55] <seb128> spent saturday travelling but otherwise good
[08:55] <seb128> you?
[08:56] <chrisccoulson> yeah, not too bad. it was actually sunny here all weekend, so i cut our grass and did a bit of shopping
[09:24] <mac_v> seb128: hi... i think my Bug #410923 is a dup of my own! there are several dups but each seem to be having their own dups! since they are all assigned to different packages... any idea why apport reports the crashes wrong? should i file a bug in apport?
[09:29] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i've pushed a change to the gconf bzr branch for the polkit-1 migration
[09:29] <seb128> chrisccoulson, ok thanks
[09:30] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - if you're interested in testing it to make sure it works, then the g-p-m capplet uses the gconf defaults, and this seems to work ok
[09:31] <chrisccoulson> gconf-editor does not work, but i presume that's because it needs porting too
[09:31] <seb128> ok thanks, gconf-editor never worked for me
[09:31] <seb128> I did try on intrepid and jaunty after getting people asking about it
[09:31] <seb128> I might test later but I've a very busy week, new GNOME, alpha4 and pitti is on holidays I cover for him too
[09:32] <seb128> and I need to land new changes before the alpha image since I'm on holidays next week
[09:32] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - that's ok:)
[09:32] <chrisccoulson> i'll try and help out where i can this week;)
[09:32] <seb128> thanks!
[09:33] <lool> seb128: Looking at xsplash, the autogen.sh and gtk-doc.make are missing because they aren't EXTRA_DISTed in the upstream Makefile.am
[09:34] <seb128> lut davidbarth
[09:34] <lool> Nothing I couldn't fix in patches but this source package looks like it relies of being built out of bzr
[09:35] <seb128> lool, right, I would not be surprised, most dxteam work in bzr and build things from there
[09:35] <lool> Yup; I think the released tarball doesn't pass make distcheck basically
[09:35] <seb128> lool, I would say it's not a blocker for getting the package in, maybe note those and open bugs after the upload?
[09:36] <seb128> + patch if you feel fixing those but don't think you need
[09:36] <lool> seb128: Ok
[09:36] <lool> seb128: Do you think it should use the gnome.mk class?
[09:37] <lool> I don't see any pos but it might benefit from the gnome.mk default configs
[09:37] <seb128> no need I would say
[09:37] <seb128> that's a simple gtk software
[09:37] <lool> k
[09:37] <seb128> ie no schemas, etc
[09:49] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i took a look at bug 410241 at the weekend, and also one other bug raised by the translations team.
[09:49] <chrisccoulson> for the gnome-panel task, pkgstriptranslations is just stripping the contents of debian/po-up, which isn't used
[09:49] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I talked to david at the airport saturday they can filter those on the rosetta side easily
[09:49] <chrisccoulson> so we can just delete it
[09:49] <chrisccoulson> ah, ok
[09:50] <seb128> chrisccoulson, we just need to make sure that patch strings are in the po templates
[09:50] <lool> seb128: Hmm I really can't build it at all from the .dsc
[09:50] <lool> It doesn't have a configure
[09:50] <seb128> lool, wfm, what error do you get?
[09:50] <seb128> urg
[09:50] <lool> Oh nevermind I'm stupid
[09:50] <lool> Wrong window
[09:50] <seb128> ok ;-)
[09:50] <chrisccoulson> i was actually wondering if we could filter them out in pkgstriptranslations? it seems to strip any folder containing translations (including the hidden .pc/ folder used by quilt)
[09:51] <seb128> should work too I guess
[09:51] <seb128> that's rather a question for pitti though
[09:52] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'll ask him when he comes back. so, i can close that bug report if they're going to be filtered out on the rosetta side can i?
[09:53] <seb128> yes, just make sure we have those string in the po template
[09:53] <davidbarth> seb128: salut
[09:54] <davidbarth> seb128: xsplash dist-check issues?
[09:54] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - in the gnome-session case, those strings are merged in the main po template. the extra folders (po.saved and debian/po-up) just contain the original template and the new merged-in strings, which aren't needed
[09:55] <chrisccoulson> in the gnome-panel case, those strings in po-up aren't used in ubuntu, and aren't merged in (but are still there in the source)
[09:55] <seb128> davidbarth, that's mostly ok, lool being picky rather than real blockers
[09:55] <seb128> chrisccoulson, ok good so the bugs can be closed
[09:55] <chrisccoulson> thanks:)
[09:55] <seb128> davidbarth, no fusa though which is annoying, do you know where ted put it?
[09:59] <seb128> Laney, hi, thanks for working on the fspot update
[10:00] <lool> seb128: I'm truly picky in general, and I don't mind packages not passing distcheck, but I don't think it's being particularly picky to reject a .diff.gz used to ship upstream files   ;-)
[10:01] <Laney> seb128: no problem
[10:01] <Laney> having some autotools issues if you could take a look though?
[10:01] <seb128> Laney, btw did you look at the package or REVU too?
[10:01] <seb128> Laney, yes sure
[10:01] <Laney> no not yet, it's on the stack
[10:01] <Laney> http://paste.debian.net/43751/
[10:01] <seb128> lool, right, do you think you can fix it or do you need to wait on the other guys to know what is the source used for packaging etc
[10:02] <lool> seb128: I'm ok with reporting it and uploading that for now
[10:02] <seb128> Laney, they have been advocated apparently so they just need upload now if you can do that
[10:02] <lool> seb128: (Which I did)
[10:02] <Laney> oh alright
[10:02] <seb128> lool, ok thanks!
[10:02] <Laney> let me look then
[10:02] <lool> Almost at the uploading part now
[10:02]  * lool tries to figure out how to pass -k to bzr bd
[10:03] <seb128> lool, bzr-buildpackage -- -kNNNNNNN
[10:03] <Laney> OK I'll do the second review in exchange for you looking at my pastebin ;)
[10:03] <lool> Just found that, thanks!
[10:03] <seb128> you're welcome
[10:03] <seb128> Laney, ;-)
[10:03] <seb128> Laney, well desktopcouchdb evolution-couchdb and mago are advocated
[10:04] <seb128> Laney, which means they got the ack and just need dput I guess
[10:04] <Laney> need two acks
[10:04] <lool> Hmm nice CC lines; I see which teams this is   :)
[10:04] <seb128> well, mago has a ack from me but I'm nobody for REVU apparently
[10:04] <Laney> unless the packager is a developer
[10:04] <Laney> seb128: oh you need someone with admin powers to promote you somehow
[10:05] <seb128> Laney, right
[10:06] <seb128> Laney, is your f-spot source online somewhere?
[10:06] <seb128> Laney, my autofoo at not strong enough to debug from pastebin ;-)
[10:06] <Laney> seb128: git clone git://git.debian.org/pkg-cli-apps/packages/f-spot.git
[10:06] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[10:08] <Laney> i didn't push my change to update gnome-doc-utils.make yet though
[10:08] <Laney> but it made no difference anyway
[10:09] <dpm> seb128: chrisccoulson, I've just read it, thanks for having a look at the po-up templates thing. I'll paste the conversation in an e-mail from the thread in the ubuntu-translations-coordinators list where this is also being discussed.
[10:14] <lool> kenvandine: I'd love if you could review and merge lp:~lool/xsplash/packaging-fixes-for-0.1-0ubuntu1 into the tip of packaging
[10:14] <lool> seb128: uploaded
[10:14] <seb128> lool, you rock, thanks!
[10:14] <seb128> dpm, ok thanks
[10:15] <Laney> seb128: shall I remove the firefox recommends?
[10:15] <seb128> Laney, feel free to do it yes
[10:15] <Laney> ok
[10:23] <seb128> Laney, not sure what is the issue there, renaming SOURCES to something else workaround the bug
[10:23] <Laney>   Uploading mago_0.1-0ubuntu1_source.changes: done.
[10:23] <Laney> Successfully uploaded packages.
[10:24] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[10:24] <Laney> no worries
[10:26] <seb128> Laney, easy way to workaround the bug is to make the if not dynamic
[10:26] <seb128> ie if you don't enable_test in the package build just comment everything in the package
[10:31] <Laney> i'll try it
[10:33] <lool> asac: Hey there, I tried looking for a TB 3 package (perhaps in a PPA) but didn't find one; did I just look at the wrong places?
[10:34] <huats> morning everyone
[10:34] <seb128> lut huats
[10:34] <huats> hello se
[10:34] <huats> seb128:
[10:35] <asac> lool: yes. checkout https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa
[10:36] <lool> Excellent thanks!
[10:36] <asac> np
[10:36] <lool> Ah now I find it in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunderbird-3.0 I had checked thundebird3
[10:36] <asac> oh. so launchpad creates packages pages for ppa things now?`
[10:36] <asac> interesting
[10:36] <asac> one even can file bugs
[10:37] <asac> i guess that answers the question: "where to file bugs against those packages not yet in ubuntu for real"
[10:37] <lool> Indeed
[10:38] <lool> I'm not sure I like the fact that mistakes in random archives can clutter LP pages but I guess that's ok
[10:38] <asac> yeah
[10:38] <seb128> asac, hey, did you manage to catch your flight connection?
[10:38] <asac> the bugs should be removed from all-bug-counts
[10:38] <asac> seb128: ack ;) ... 10 minutes before boarding i arrived. thanks!
[10:38] <seb128> good ;-)
[10:39] <seb128> asac, still not recommended to open ppa bugs there they will be mixed with ubuntu bugs
[10:39]  * asac gets reminded to send a complain - but doesnt bother now ;)
[10:39] <seb128> lol
[10:39] <seb128> asac, thanks for the telepathy-butterfly fix btw
[10:39] <asac> seb128: i think it depends on the ppas ... our dailies exist to catch regressions early
[10:39] <asac> and for firefox-3.6 we dont have any bug tracker at all ;)
[10:40] <seb128> asac, right but as lool said you don't want bugs from random crack user ppas you don't know about
[10:40] <asac> yeah
[10:40] <asac> thats true. we should be able to maintain a whitelist ... or "ubuntu-team ppas"
[10:40] <seb128> right
[10:41] <asac> actually i dont like the feature that it displays random crack builds on the frontpage either
[10:41] <asac> "Other versions of 'firefox-3.6' in untrusted archives. "
[10:42] <seb128> that's handy to see what cracks are available but it's annoying that users can be lead to cracks this way
[10:43] <asac> seb128: yeah. ototh, we have apport preventing that
[10:43] <asac> so for packages already in the archive this doesnt change a thing. just for new packages ;)
[10:45] <asac> hmm. i have problems running update-manager in a chroot
[10:45] <asac> Failed to fetch http://ubuntu.intergenia.de/ubuntu/dists/karmic/Release.gpg  Something wicked happened resolving 'ubuntu.intergenia.de:http' (-11)
[10:45] <asac> thats odd
[10:45] <asac> i saw the same bug in a fresh chroot
[10:45] <asac> even with apt-get
[10:46] <asac> now updated an existing chroot and its also like that
[10:46] <asac> too bad
[10:46] <asac> EOL for karmic chroots i guess
[10:47] <asac> when will mvo return ;)?
[10:48] <asac> ftp doesnt work any better :(
[10:55] <seb128> lool, could you push your nautilus changes to bzr?
[10:57] <lool> seb128: I suck; pushed
[10:57] <seb128> lool, so you don't, thanks ;-)
[10:57] <asac> seb128: can you promote firefox-3.5 to main please?
[10:57] <seb128> asac, ok
[10:57] <asac> gratias
[11:06] <lool> seb128: Hey do you know why clutter-gtk (Source) wasn't API versionned in the last upload?
[11:06] <crevette> hello
[11:07] <lool> seb128: I emailed didrocks but I didn't get a reply
[11:07] <lool> That was last Thursday
[11:07] <Laney> I think he was going on holiday
[11:07] <lool> Ah
[11:07] <seb128> lool, no, is there several versions or a need to version it?
[11:07] <seb128> lool, he's on holidays for 2 weeks I think
[11:08] <lool> seb128: I just seems inconsistent with clutter/clutter-0.10
[11:08] <lool> s/I/It
[11:08] <seb128> well clutter is 1.0 now
[11:08] <seb128> not sure if versionning is still useful
[11:08] <seb128> but no I don't know and I've no strong opinion either way
[11:09] <lool> clutter became clutter-1.0 to keep the 0.8 versions in archive parallel installable; clutter-gtk wasn't I don't care how we fix it but it'd better match
[11:09] <lool> Will check with didrocks when he comes back I guess
[11:09] <lool> Debian didn't push clutter-gtk 1.0 yet
[11:12] <seb128> lool, I guess that's because we had clutter-0.8 clutter-gtk
[11:12] <seb128> clutter-0.9 I mean
[11:12] <seb128> ie clutter was already versioned
[11:12] <Laney> looks like those autotools warnings were around in 0.5.0.3 too
[11:12] <Laney> so I won't worry about them
[11:12] <seb128> I'm wondering if it would make sense to drop any versioning now
[11:12] <seb128> Laney, ok
[11:14] <Laney> clean up build-deps and close bugs and then it should be good
[11:14] <seb128> Laney, \o/
[11:35] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i just saw the nautilus and gnome-panel patches. surely that change would be better in gnome-session? (sending the DBus message on the transition from Panel -> Application phases, when both nautilus and gnome-panel are already loaded), rather than patching both nautilus and gnome-panel to do the same thing?
[11:36] <seb128> chrisccoulson, no clue about those, I've not been discussing nor working on those just doing sponsoring
[11:36] <seb128> chrisccoulson, robert_ancell is on holidays now though
[11:37] <seb128> but yeah that seems to make sense if gnome-session knows when those are done displaying things
[11:37] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - ok, no problem. i just had a look at the xsplash code, and it looks quite hacky there. if the message came from the session manager, then it would work with any combination of filemanager or panel. with the current situation, it only works with gnome-panel an nautilus, and requires them both to be patched
[11:37] <seb128> ie I don't know when gnome-session goes to the next stage, are gnome-panel applets still loading, etc
[11:38] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, i'm not too sure about that
[11:38] <seb128> bratsche, hey, are you there?
[11:38] <seb128> bratsche, ^ that's a topic for you I guess
[11:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, bratsche is writing xsplash, they discussed those changes with robert_ancekk
[11:39] <seb128> robert_ancell
[11:39] <chrisccoulson> doesn't gnome-session send a DBus signal when the phase changes? that would be even better, as it wouldn't even need o be patched at all
[11:39] <chrisccoulson> ok, no problem, i'll chat with bratsche
[11:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, well the idea is to display the splash until screen is stable
[11:40] <seb128> ie if gnome-panel still loads applets after being "done" that's an issue
[11:40] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm not sure when gnome-panel connects to the session manager
[11:40] <seb128> davidbarth might know
[12:01] <asac> how can i see if a package is in "auto-installed" mode?
[12:06] <bigon> does anybody already have think about the upnp support in farsight2 and libnice? do you plan to ship it on the cd? (
[12:06] <bigon>     * libgupnp-igd-1.0-2_0.1.3-0ubuntu2_i386.deb (13.9 KiB) )
[12:11] <seb128> asac, "auto-installed"?
[12:12] <seb128> bigon, no and no idea
[12:12] <asac> seb128: well. packages that would become autoremove candidates if the package that pulled them in got removed
[12:13] <asac> e.g. apt-get autoremove
[12:13] <seb128> ah
[12:13] <asac> there is a flag in some database ;)
[12:13] <asac> but i cant find it
[12:13] <cassidy> bigon: if there is place, it would be good to ship it imho
[12:13] <cassidy> so packages won't have to divert from Debian
[12:22] <Ng> how does thunderbird device what app to use to open a file type?
[12:22] <Ng> On a number of machines, jaunty and karmic, I've seen it recently start trying to use Font Viewer for PDFs
[12:23] <seb128> Ng, what thunderbird version? I would say it's an asac's question
[12:25] <Ng> seb128: at least the very latest 2.0 packages in jaunty
[12:27] <tjaalton> Ng: I think it uses /etc/mailcap*
[12:34] <seb128> asac, aptitude search ~i | grep ^id something around those lines seem to do the trick
[12:35] <seb128> asac, in fact no, is has a A has digit 3
[12:38] <asac> grep -A1 firefox /var/lib/apt/extended_states
[12:38] <seb128> good catch
[12:39] <asac> seb128: by sladen ;)
[12:39] <seb128> we miss mvo around for such questions ;-)
[12:39] <asac> ack
[12:40] <asac> seems firefox-3.0 and firefox-3.0-gnome-support are not auto installed ... even though firefox and firefox-gnome-support is in ubuntu-desktop :/
[12:40] <asac> waiting for davmor to confirm that on a fresh install
[12:42] <seb128> asac, they are in the autoremove list once you remove firefox
[12:43] <seb128> or rather firefox and firefox-gnome-support
[12:43] <seb128> and ubufox
[12:43] <seb128> asac, "aptitude why firefox-3.0"
[12:44] <seb128> asac, I had to uninstall  firefox firefox-gnome-support ubufox to get it there
[12:45] <asac> seb128: davmor didnt see ubufox in why
[12:45] <seb128> I get it after removing the others
[12:46] <seb128> asac, you might want to have a | firefox-3.5 there
[12:46] <asac> yeah
[12:46] <asac> though i have the feeling that doesnt helpü
[12:46] <asac> because after moving firefox to 3.5 its not autoremove either
[12:46] <asac> even though firefox is in depends of ubufox
[12:46] <seb128> what is the issue? refuse to change the default?
[12:46] <asac> smells like a bug
[12:47] <asac> seb128: no. its not a big issue. its just that i expected firefox-3.0 go to autoremove after moving firefox and firefox-gnome-support meta package
[12:47] <seb128> ok
[12:47] <asac> will do migration packages at the end of the cycle then
[12:48] <asac> mvo said it would work. maybe i should  make the whole firefox, etc. stuff a recommends for ubufox
[12:52] <bratsche> Hi chrisccoulson
[12:53] <bratsche> chrisccoulson: I think robert_ancell did it that way because he couldn't find a reliable way in gnome-session to determine when the session was finished loading.  It would send the signal too early or something.
[12:54] <bratsche> If you have some other ideas on how to do this it would be awesome. :)
[12:56] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - yeah, i think you're right (sort of). gnome-session provides a reliable way to know when the session is finished loading, but gnome-panel seems to connect to the session manager too early (causing the next session phase to begin whilst the applets are still loading)
[12:56] <chrisccoulson> i had a look at the gnome-panel code, and it connects to the session manager just before entering the main loop, which I think is way too early
[12:57] <bratsche> Well, the way I understood what robert said was that gnome-session would signal once it has asked everything else to load.. but not when they're actually done loading.  He had a better idea of how to solve this, but it would require some more work:
[12:58] <bratsche> Which is for each thing that gnome-session spawns, have a dbus callback signal from that item to gnome-session saying, "I'm totally done loading"
[12:59] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - that's already the case i think. gnome-session starts the session in phases, and only progresses to the next phase when all applications in the current phase are done loading
[12:59] <bratsche> Oh I see.  What are the different phases?
[12:59] <chrisccoulson> clients already tell gnome-session when they've loaded, by connecting to it
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> the phases are Initialization -> Window Manager -> Desktop -> Panel -> Applications (or something very similar to that
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> Nautilus starts in "Desktop" phase
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> and gnome-panel starts in "Panel"
[13:00] <bratsche> So it's not trying to do them in parallel?
[13:00] <seb128> the issue is to know if gnome-panel is done actually loading applets, etc when sending the signal
[13:00] <seb128> bratsche, right that's the idea, hey btw ;-)
[13:01] <bratsche> Morning seb128! :)
[13:01] <chrisccoulson> no, it does them sequentially, to ensure things like the window manager are done loading before running any applications
[13:01] <bratsche> Okay, fair enough.
[13:01] <chrisccoulson> so, gnome-panel won't even being loading until Nautilus connected to the session manager
[13:01] <chrisccoulson> so, with the current situation, you could probably actually drop the patch from Nautilus
[13:02] <chrisccoulson> because Nautilus will already be loaded when gnome-panel tells xsplash that it is done
[13:02] <bratsche> But you think the signal is emitted before panel has loaded all its applets?
[13:02] <bratsche> That's good to know.  I'll drop the Nautilus signal fu in xsplash.
[13:02] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - in the case of gnome-panel, it connects to the session manager just before calling gtk_main(), which is long before anything is displayed I think
[13:03] <bratsche> Oh okay.  I'm pulling down the source and I'll try to find this.
[13:03] <chrisccoulson> i don't know how early Nautilus connects to the session manager (whether it is before or after drawing the desktop)
[13:04] <chrisccoulson> if it connects after drawing the desktop (which it should do really), then the nautilus patch could be dropped
[13:05] <bratsche> Do you know where in the panel code it's doing this callback?
[13:05] <bratsche> Well, since everything happens sequentially can't we just drop the Nautilus patch altogether?
[13:06] <bratsche> Except that some users may not be using panel I guess..
[13:07] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - gnome-panel calls panel_session_init from main() right before gtk_main()
[13:07] <chrisccoulson> panel_session_init does the stuff which registers with the session manager
[13:08] <bratsche> gnome_client_connect (client);
[13:08] <bratsche> I guess
[13:09] <chrisccoulson> that's the one:)
[13:09] <bratsche> I wonder if it would work to move that until later.
[13:09] <bratsche> I'm going to try. :)
[13:09] <chrisccoulson> once that has happened, gnome-session then progresses on to the next phase (Application), because there are no other applications starting in the panel phase
[13:10] <chrisccoulson> moving it later would work - but it would also stall the session loading until all the applets loaded
[13:10] <chrisccoulson> and that might not please some people ;)
[13:11] <bratsche> We really should find some way to parallelize certain parts of the session startup it sounds.
[13:11] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - that's already mostly the case. these phases are there to make sure that certain things load before others
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> eg, gnome-settings-daemon must start before anything begins to draw on the screen
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> and the window manager must be started before any windows appear
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> i don't know if it is possible to parallelize nautilus and gnome-panel though
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> but most stuff starts in the last phase anyway
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> and that happens in parallel
[13:13] <vuntz> chrisccoulson, bratsche: so
[13:13] <chrisccoulson> bratsche - http://live.gnome.org/SessionManagement/NewGnomeSession explains the session management stuff quite well :)
[13:13] <chrisccoulson> hi vuntz
[13:13] <bratsche> So most of this stuff is new to me, I mostly only know gtk+ very much.  So this is kind of cool to me. :)
[13:13] <bratsche> Hi vuntz
[13:13] <vuntz> very quickly (busy with other things, but I keep being highlighter when you say gnome-session or panel ;-))
[13:14] <vuntz> the panel connects to the SM as soon as it has set the hint about struts
[13:15] <chrisccoulson> and that is before the panel or any applets are displayed isn't it?
[13:15] <vuntz> this way, when nautilus starts displaying icons on the desktop, nautilus knows where to put icons
[13:15] <vuntz> we don't want to wait for applets because it's looooong
[13:15] <vuntz> and this would block everything else
[13:15] <chrisccoulson> ah, right - that's an important point bratsche - nautilus starts after gnome-panel
[13:15] <chrisccoulson> i got that bit wrong :-/
[13:15] <bratsche> So if I can just find the place in the code where all applets are finished loading, I could put robert_ancell's signal there..
[13:15] <vuntz> bratsche: it's trivial
[13:16] <vuntz> bratsche: panel_applet_queue_initial_unhide_toplevels()
[13:16] <vuntz> bratsche: what would this code do?
[13:17] <bratsche> vuntz: So the background here is that we want a splash screen that fades out once the desktop is totally ready to use, we don't want the user to see things loading and such.
[13:18] <vuntz> bratsche: full-desktop splash?
[13:18] <bratsche> Yes.
[13:19] <vuntz> bratsche: here's how I'd like you to do it so it goes upstream
[13:19] <vuntz> bratsche: we already have org.gnome.Panel
[13:19] <vuntz> create a signal there
[13:19] <vuntz> and in panel_applet_queue_initial_unhide_toplevels, send this signal
[13:20] <chrisccoulson> that sounds good. bratsche - is xsplash connected to the users session bus?
[13:21] <vuntz> (and just want to point out that you should discuss this upstream)
[13:21] <bratsche> No, I think right now it's started by gdm.. its own dbus stuff is on the system bus I think.
[13:21] <bratsche> vuntz: Thanks very much!
[13:22] <vuntz> also, stupid example:
[13:22] <chrisccoulson> brb
[13:22] <vuntz> gnome-volume-contorl
[13:22] <vuntz> will you wait for it to be shown before removing the splash?
[13:23] <vuntz> if yes, this means waiting for all autostart apps, but, this might be slower than what you'd like
[13:23] <chrisccoulson> the splash will be removed before displaying the volume control i think
[13:24] <vuntz> but really, if you want it to do it the right way according to upstream, at least send a mail to d-d-l so that people can comment
[13:25] <bratsche> Okay cool, will do.
[13:27] <seb128> vuntz, hey
[13:27] <vuntz> seb128: mon alsacien préféré !
[13:27] <seb128> vuntz, !!!
[13:28] <seb128> vuntz, do you plan to do patches reviews?
[13:28] <seb128> vuntz, libwnck and gnome-panel patches review ;-)
[13:28] <bratsche> seb128: Hey, did you get a chance to put that gtk+ patch into Karmic to test gdm against?
[13:28] <vuntz> yep
[13:28] <vuntz> gnome-panel first
[13:28] <seb128> bratsche, yes, uploaded that this morning
[13:28] <bratsche> woot
[13:28]  * bratsche checks for updates
[13:28] <vuntz> I think I've cleaned up my list of completely urgent things to do
[13:29] <vuntz> seb128: so if you have a list of patches, feel free to send it :-)
[13:29] <seb128> bratsche, but alex is back and fixed it in git since
[13:29] <bratsche> Oh nice!
[13:32] <vuntz> ah, the bug on the root window. Cool, was wondering what the fix was ;-)
[13:32] <chrisccoulson> hi bratsche - i don't know if i missed any discussion while i was away.
[13:33] <chrisccoulson> are you concerned about things like gnome-volume-control and nm-applet starting after the splash went away?
[13:33] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I don't think we are no
[13:33] <bratsche> I'm not concerned about them
[13:33] <chrisccoulson> cool:)
[13:33] <seb128> vuntz, I would give you bug numbers with patches if bugzilla was responding
[13:34] <vuntz> chrisccoulson: you only missed me complaining that this should be discussed on d-d-l ;-)
[13:34] <vuntz> seb128: so you'll be happy with the upgrade :-)
[13:34] <bratsche> vuntz: What's the right way to do this?  I was going to try to work up a patch and post it to d-d-l as I bring this up.
[13:34] <seb128> vuntz, yes ;-)
[13:35] <vuntz> bratsche: well, maybe just say "we want to do that, we think we'll be doing it this way. Patch will be done soon, please comment now if you think the method is wrong"
[13:35] <chrisccoulson> vuntz, ok, thanks:) we should probably stop talking about gnome-session and gnome-panel now, else you will be ping'd constantly ;)
[13:35] <vuntz> chrisccoulson: nah, that's fine
[13:36] <vuntz> it's cool to see good activity!
[13:36] <seb128> vuntz, so bugzilla behaves now
[13:36] <bratsche> vuntz: Cool, thanks!
[13:36] <seb128> vuntz, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341441 has users who tried the change on the duplicate
[13:36] <chrisccoulson> so, bratsche - you probably still want the change in nautilus too, as that starts after gnome-panel anyway
[13:36] <seb128> vuntz, not sure why federico closed the bug with patch as duplicate makes harder to spot the change
[13:51] <crevette> hello
[13:51] <bratsche> Hi crevette
[13:51] <crevette> hi bratsche
[13:57] <seb128> lut crevette
[13:57] <crevette> salut seb128
[14:09] <superm1> chrisccoulson, missed you after you responded yesterday. so with this new setup, do I understand correctly that GSD applies the gtk theme and what not to gdm, and pulseaudio allows the hotkeys (and pulseaudio) to work during gdm too?
[14:09] <superm1> I thought pulseaudio ran as the user's uid once he or she got logged in
[14:11] <chrisccoulson> superm1 - g-s-d runs in the gdm session now, so that the theme will be applied. i don't know about media keys or pulseaudio in the GDM session though, as some g-s-d plugins are disabled in the GDM session i think
[14:11] <chrisccoulson> but pulseaudio is a recommends of g-s-d now because the media-keys plugin needs it for the volume buttons in the user session
[14:12] <superm1> ok.  that logically makes sense. i suppose
[14:13] <chrisccoulson> your concern is about pulling in pulseaudio on mythbuntu isn't it?
[14:13] <superm1> yeah
[14:13] <superm1> i can't seem to find a way to block it from getting pulled in since gsd is pulled in now for gdm and it's a recommends there
[14:14] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm not sure what else to say really - gnome is depending more and more on pulseaudio now, and it's getting difficult to run gnome components without it
[14:14] <seb128> is mythbuntu gnome based?
[14:14] <superm1> xfce based
[14:14] <chrisccoulson> didn't xfce go to xdm for the login manager, for this reason?
[14:15] <seb128> so maybe you should look at using a different login manager
[14:15] <superm1> xubuntu is still doing gdm
[14:16] <superm1> kdm would add half of kde, so that's not the best of ideas either
[14:16] <seb128> right the recommend changes were good enough there
[14:16] <seb128> but they are fine with having pulseaudio I think
[14:16] <chrisccoulson> is xfce using g-s-d though?
[14:17] <chrisccoulson> s/xfce/xubuntu
[14:17] <superm1> somehow it looks like xubuntu doesn't have gnome-settings-daemon in their livefs
[14:17] <superm1> (http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20090810/karmic-desktop-i386.manifest) I'm not really sure how they pulled that off.
[14:17] <superm1> maybe that will be the solution then
[14:17] <chrisccoulson> superm1 - gdm depends on g-s-d | xfconf
[14:18] <chrisccoulson> so, xubuntu is using xfconf rather than g-s-d
[14:18] <superm1> chrisccoulson, ah well then that is a bit odd because xfconf is in the mythbuntu livefs too
[14:18] <superm1> so there has to be something weird going on here for dependency resolution selection order i suppose
[14:19] <chrisccoulson> possibly. but you should be able to use either one of them now:)
[14:19] <superm1> okay well that explains things significantly better.  i'll set that as the goal to solve here, just need the means to an end.  thanks chrisccoulson !
[14:20] <chrisccoulson> superm1 - you're welcome
[14:20] <chrisccoulson> right, i must start some work now, i've hardly done anything today
[14:21] <crevette> hey asac
[14:21] <asac> crevette: hi
[14:21] <crevette> asac, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/411422 mind my last comment
[14:22] <asac> crevette: why does upstream go for rfkill if this requires roiot?
[14:22] <crevette> I don't know, perhaps because this is the right way to do ?
[14:23] <crevette> I don't know how it was handle before
[14:24] <asac> ok
[14:25] <asac> crevette: so the on/off menu item does nothing now for users?
[14:25] <crevette> it doesn't even appears
[14:25] <crevette> if I chmod 666 /dev/rfkill it works fine
[14:25] <crevette> when need to define some acl on rfkill as I told you few days ago
[14:26] <crevette> s/when/we/
[14:27] <superm1> the bluez daemon just got an rfkill plugin though, i'd suspect that this was supposed to operate via a dbus interface
[14:27] <superm1> how is it currently done for NM?
[14:27] <crevette> hey superm1
[14:27] <superm1> hi crevette
[14:28]  * crevette tries rfkill event, expect to be disconnected :)
[14:28] <seb128> asac, the upstream commit suggests that we need to add a udev rules to allow that
[14:30] <crevette> hmm, I have 2 rfkill for bluetooth tpacpi_bluetooth_sw: Bluetooth & hci0: Bluetooth
[14:31] <asac> yeah
[14:32] <Ng> --help
[14:55] <seb128> vuntz, yes the libslab copy in g-c-c is wanted and whoever roll a tarball should sync the copy before
[14:55] <seb128> (quicker to reply there than on the list)
[15:00] <vuntz> seb128: sure, but, hrm, why is it wanted?
[15:00] <seb128> vuntz, because some distributors don't use gnome-main-menu and don't want to add an extra system lib for the shell only
[15:01] <seb128> we are trying to reduce the number of depends not to add random libs used by one thing
[15:01] <vuntz> seb128: let me ask the question in another way: what does it change? :-)
[15:01] <vuntz> ok
[15:02] <seb128> vuntz, it changes that it's easier to build gnome-control-center using a copy than to support a system lib which has no frequent tarballs, etc
[15:03] <seb128> ie having it in g-c-c means only that code will be buggy, having it as a system lib installed by default would mean considering any "client" for that lib
[15:03] <vuntz> don't understand the last sentence :-)
[15:03] <vuntz> doing releases is not an issue
[15:03] <vuntz> your best argument is your very first one ("reduce number of ...")
[15:03] <seb128> vuntz, well, if that was an official client lib we would need to make sure abi is not changing, etc
[15:03] <vuntz> why?
[15:04] <vuntz> the libwnck API can change
[15:04] <vuntz> or ABI
[15:04] <seb128> well that the soname change
[15:04] <vuntz> it's really the same thing, isn't it?
[15:04] <vuntz> it's just "yet another library"
[15:04] <seb128> well for one thing we want less libs and not extra ones
[15:04] <vuntz> sure, and I can understand that
[15:05] <seb128> and for an another thing we don't really care if gnome-control-center is buggy
[15:05] <seb128> but we would care that a system lib shipped and which can be used by any customer is buggy
[15:05] <vuntz> but
[15:05] <vuntz> hrm
[15:05] <vuntz> seb128: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=gnome-main-menu&searchon=names&suite=karmic&section=all
[15:05] <seb128> vuntz, it's in universe
[15:05] <vuntz> you have gnome-main-menu (in universe, I guess)
[15:06] <vuntz> so you'll have libslab
[15:06] <seb128> vuntz, right it's in universe, a community thing and not something we official support
[15:06] <seb128> officially
[15:07] <seb128> honestly libslab has been crappy for a while and I would want better to not have to officially support it
[15:07] <seb128> it doesn't follow GNOME schedules, has no frequent tarballs, etc
[15:07] <vuntz> I'm not saying libslab is good :-)
[15:08] <vuntz> but if you don't care about the control center shell, then you can just not build it
[15:09] <seb128> vuntz, I want the interface but not libslab as a system lib
[15:11] <vuntz> seb128: my point is that you have to officially support the libslab code anyway, in that case.
[15:11] <vuntz> anyway, let's wait from feedback from others
[15:11] <vuntz> I guess we can just add some configure.in code to detect if there's an external libslab
[15:11] <seb128> vuntz, that's what we do now no?
[15:12] <seb128> vuntz, it fall back to copy if there is no lib
[15:12] <vuntz> nope
[15:12] <vuntz> always internal copy
[15:12] <seb128> hum, that's buggy
[15:12] <vuntz> and it even installs headers :-)
[15:12] <vuntz> without a pkg-config file, because we want the most broken situation
[16:07] <bratsche> seb128: Do you happen to know where is the image file that is used for the default gdm background?
[16:08] <seb128> bratsche, gconftool-2 --get /desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename
[16:08] <bratsche> Oh cool, thanks!
[16:09] <seb128> bratsche, or "sudo dbus-launch gconftool-2 --get /desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename"
[16:09] <seb128> to get the system one
[16:09] <seb128> bratsche, it's basically the same image than the default desktop background
[16:10] <bratsche> Weird..
[16:10] <seb128> why?
[16:10] <bratsche> When I do it with sudo it shows /usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png
[16:10] <bratsche> But I can't load with eog
[16:10] <seb128> right that's the default image on ubuntu
[16:10] <didrocks> lool: hum… I can't find your email, which adress did you use ? @ubuntu.com (checking again and I found nothing). Checking spam now
[16:10] <didrocks> hey seb128 o/
[16:10] <seb128> hey didrocks
[16:11] <seb128> didrocks, I though you were on holidays?
[16:11] <dobey> bratsche: file says it's JPEG, JFIF 1.01
[16:11] <didrocks> seb128: I'm but it's currently raining :)
[16:11] <seb128> didrocks, oh :--
[16:11] <seb128> :-(
[16:11] <didrocks> seb128: not a problem. Apparently, it will be better tomorrow. So, just a little time to work on quickly :)
[16:12] <bratsche> dobey: Oh yeah, nice.
[16:12] <seb128> didrocks, did you manage to work on the mutter update?
[16:12] <didrocks> lool: no, even in spam, I find nothing :(
[16:12] <bratsche> seb128: Seems that warty-final-ubuntu.png is a .jpg file actually.
[16:12] <didrocks> seb128: mutter 1.0, not yet. I will try today :)
[16:12] <dobey> bratsche: i blame kwwii
[16:12] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - you should be drinking cocktails ;)
[16:12] <seb128> bratsche, eog doesn't like filenames and content not matching
[16:12] <didrocks> hey chrisccoulson ;)
[16:23] <lool> didrocks: To: Didier Roche <didrocks@ubuntu.com>
[16:23] <lool> Message-ID: <20090806065936.GA5831@bee.dooz.org>
[16:24] <lool> Aug  6 08:59:38 duck postfix/smtp[24345]: 7D498C80A7: to=<didrocks@ubuntu.com>, relay=mx.canonical.com[91.189.94.145], delay=0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as A4D2DB681D5)
[16:24] <lool> I can only trace it down to there
[16:43] <didrocks> lool: (I have to review my tagging. It was gone to the bug thread :/). I discussed about this with stevenk and he wanted that we support only one version of clutter-gtk and then version the source package from 1.0.
[16:49] <lool> didrocks: So Clutter is versionned but not Clutter Gtk?!
[16:50] <lool> That's a bit odd
[16:52] <didrocks> lool: indeed, I will talk about it with stevenk
[17:24] <kklimonda> seb128: are you still working on gnome-shell package?
[17:24] <seb128> kklimonda, yes, why?
[17:25] <kklimonda> seb128: because package in ~ubuntu-desktop ppa doesn't build.
[17:26] <seb128> right, I've a new snapshot on disk
[17:26] <seb128> but it's blocked on didrocks for a week
[17:26] <seb128> ie needs a mutter update to build
[17:28] <kklimonda> i see
[17:28] <seb128> should be fixed soon though
[17:42] <davmor2> seb128: should an icon, in the title bar, in a window sporned by a parent app have the parents icon?  Jockey opens a window to say that the driver is being downloaded however it has the window default (terminal looking) icon rather than that of jockey's if that makes sense
[17:43] <seb128> dunno
[17:43] <seb128> by default it doesn't have an icon
[17:43] <seb128> now whether jockey should have different icons for different dialogs I don't know
[17:44] <davmor2> seb128: Thanks
[18:15] <didrocks> seb128: mutter's git version builds successfully. I have to setup a clean environment to try it before uploading
[18:27] <MDC2> mpt, (andreasn told me to ask you) - i've got a question about using icons; metacity and the taskbars window menu (min, max, close) - should these keep their icons even it shouldn't according to the design guides...?
[18:29] <mpt> MDC2, I don't know of any reason those window menus should have icons, when similar items in other menus (e.g. File > Close) do not
[18:30] <mac_v> mpt: werent actions supposed to have icons?
[18:30] <mpt> mac_v, they weren't
[18:30] <mpt> only objects
[18:30] <mac_v> oh... ok
[18:30] <mpt> (documents, disks, bookmarks, history items, user accounts, etc)
[18:30] <MDC2> mpt, well, now I've asked anyway. I just thought they were quite standard (eg even windows have icons for those even otherwise no icons)
[18:31] <mpt> MDC2, Windows applications often use icons for arbitrary menu items
[18:32] <MDC2> mpt, true. so - no icons?
[18:33] <mpt> MDC2, correct
[18:33] <MDC2> ok
[18:34] <mac_v> mpt: just wanted to ask... are you involved in setting up the gnome guidelines? or do you just give suggestions? just asking since i took most of your comments upstream as suggestions
[18:36] <mpt> mac_v, my proposed text is quoted in <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=588668>, but I haven't edited the HIGs myself
[18:37] <mac_v> mpt: i was confused since andreasn said something about checking your post for the guidelines , so thought your drafted the HIG guidelines...
[18:38] <mac_v> nevermind though... thanx
[18:38] <fredp> mpt: while the subject is open, what about status icon in the empathy status chooser ? (the absence of icons has been reported as http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591247 )
[18:39] <mpt> mac_v, the one time I tried to submit a complete change for the HIGs myself <http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2008-July/msg00017.html>, nothing happened
[18:39] <mac_v> mpt: their loss ;p
[18:41] <mpt> I suppose I should try again, since it would be unfair to make a judgement based on just one attempt
[18:43] <mac_v> mpt: BTW  , have you noticed this> Bugs #410636
[18:43] <fredp> mpt: please do; we really need an updated HIG for gnome 3.
[18:43] <mpt> fredp, yes, I think IM statuses should count as objects
[18:43] <mpt> (and therefore have icons)
[18:44] <mac_v> mpt: gnome is setting the pop to display just below the pointer , so the option gets selected! i'm not sure when this was changed , my old install didnt have this problem[had cruft from years!]
[18:44] <dobey> they're not really objects. they are more abstract concepts
[18:44] <mac_v> *popup
[18:44] <chrisccoulson> kenvandine - you've removed some lines from the changelog history in xsplash. any particular reason for that?
[18:45] <kenvandine> i did?
[18:45] <kenvandine> which lines?
[18:45] <chrisccoulson> most of the changelog entry for the initial release ;)
[18:45] <kenvandine> oh... mine is based on what was in bzr
[18:45] <chrisccoulson> if it was not intentional, then i'll just add them back in and sponsor
[18:45] <kenvandine> perhaps what got uploaded was a little different
[18:45] <kenvandine> please do
[18:45]  * kenvandine should merge that back in bzr
[18:46] <chrisccoulson> yeah, would be good. i'll finish checking and upload now :)
[18:46] <kenvandine> thx chrisccoulson
[18:53] <mpt> mac_v, I saw 410636 in my Inbox earlier. Highlighting the first item by default makes sense if, and only if, (a) you're using the "Trigger secondary click by holding down the primary button" option and (b) the first item does what a click on the left button would do. That would eliminate an unpleasant difference between the effect of holding down the button for N milliseconds and holding it down for N+1 milliseconds. But that combination of cir
[18:53] <mpt> cumstances hardly ever happens (and never happens in Nautilus afaik).
[18:54] <mpt> An example of where it did happen was in Netscape 4 for Mac, where holding down the mouse button on a link would eventually open the context menu but with an "Open this Link" item pre-selected under the cursor, so if you released without moving it was exactly the same as if you'd clicked for a shorter time.
[18:55] <mpt> s/left/primary/
[18:58] <mac_v> mpt: right-click creates accidental "new folders" , which is not the left button option
[18:58] <mpt> Indeed not. :-)
[18:58] <MDC2> mpt, so a change in gtk is in place?
[18:59] <mpt> MDC2, it would make sense, yes
[19:00] <mac_v> mpt: also in the gnome-menu , right click ads launcher to panel , which is again not the left click option... the list goes on! i think for mow the change in gtk is ideal
[19:00] <mac_v> adds*
[19:00] <seb128> what do you want to change?
[19:00] <mpt> I think you should only need to move the pointer 1px to select the first item, though. Anything more to prevent accidental selections is better handled by more general solutions like an "Ignore accidental drags" option in mouse/touchpad settings.
[19:00] <mac_v> seb128: not highlight the first menu option , move the pop-up menu a few pixels away from the pointer will accom plish that
[19:01] <seb128> hum
[19:01] <seb128> I think having it selected in handy
[19:01] <seb128> but apparently I'm an anti-usability user, ie I use things you guy don't like ;-)
[19:01] <MDC2> mac_v, seb128, or just wait a few ms before one can make a selection
[19:01] <mac_v> MDC2: thats not ideal
[19:01] <seb128> what is the issue there? people who left click expect what?
[19:01] <seb128> to close the menu?
[19:03] <seb128> same when opening using the keyboard
[19:03] <seb128> anyway, diner time
[19:03] <seb128> bbl
[19:03] <mpt> seb128, the problem also occurs if you double-right-click.
[19:03] <MDC2> seb128, especilly with my mouse right clicking to bring up a menu results in about 40% results in a the first option being selected (accidently)
[19:03] <mpt> seb128, whereas every other type of menu does nothing if you open and close it in the same spot.
[19:03] <MDC2> seb128, but I might be a crappy user :-)
[19:05] <mac_v> mpt:  the weird thing is , menu button doesnt highlight the options!
[19:05] <mpt> mac_v, what do you mean by "menu button"?
[19:06] <mac_v> mpt: the one next to the alt , which triggers the right-click menu
[19:06] <mpt> Oh, I don't have one of those :-)
[19:07] <mpt> So the context menu key opens the menu in a slightly different place from where the secondary button opens it?
[19:07] <mac_v> mpt: no... same place ... but with the menu button , the option does not prelight
[19:08] <mpt> but then it highlights when you move the pointer in any direction?
[19:08] <MDC2> mpt, I think that's a bug in gtk because it doesnt look where the mouse is when you press a key in the keyboard and therefor doesn't select the first option
[19:08]  * mpt wonders what the equivalent combo is for the context menu key
[19:08] <MDC2> mpt, yes it does
[19:09] <mac_v> mpt: yes
[19:09] <mpt> how weird
[19:10] <mpt> mac_v, how's progress going in the other icons-in-menus bugs?
[19:11] <mpt> thanks again for your work on those
[19:12] <dobey> my right-click menus never get the first item selected. i have to move the mouse into the menu for that
[19:12] <dobey> though i do agree with the idea that right click activating a menu item might be a bit confusing
[19:12] <mac_v> mpt: MDC2 has been fixing the nautilus issues , but there is lack of motivation from other devs , maybe when Karmic hits bea and they are flooded with bugs they will move the a$$
[19:12] <mac_v> beta*
[19:13] <MDC2> mpt, mac_v, just point me one or two of those bugs and I'll see what i can do
[19:13] <mpt> thanks MDC2
[19:19] <MDC2> mpt, got bugs? :-D
[19:20] <mpt> MDC2, mac_v would know that far better than I would, I've been on holiday + sprint since before this all started :-)
[19:20] <MDC2> mpt, good for you! :)
[19:20] <MDC2> mac_v, bugs?
[19:35] <MDC2> mpt, about the popup menu; a rather big change would be to have a thin title for each menu (as in the window selector with the workspaces)
[19:35] <mac_v> MDC2: a different bug ,Bug #388949 , it is assigned to bryce , but doesnt seem to have progressed
[19:35] <mpt> MDC2, please don't, you'll give me unpleasant Netscape-3-for-Unix flashbacks
[19:36] <mac_v> MDC2: yeah , no titles!
[19:36] <mpt> Well, that and it would make the menus much slower to use :-)
[19:36] <MDC2> ok.. sorry then ;-)
[19:36] <mac_v> MDC2: interested in the bug^ ?
[19:36] <MDC2> mac_v, about the bug; just change the name in the menu?
[19:36] <mac_v> yeah
[19:37] <MDC2> mac_v, easy one.. give me a few sec... ;-)
[19:38] <mac_v> MDC2: oops! looks like bryce has already done the patch! let me find a different bug
[19:39] <MDC2> mac_v, yeah, was about to say the same
[19:39] <MDC2> mac_v, anyone discussing the bug upstream?
[19:40] <MDC2> mac_v, if you don't find a bug I think I'll go with this one; http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85523
[19:40] <mac_v> i think , you just need to add bryce'c  patch ustream
[19:41] <MDC2> mac_v, as cosimo said in the upstrem patch; he wants someone to bring up the discussion on the mailing list..
[19:41] <MDC2> (and i'm no good at that)
[19:51] <seb128> MDC2, you should perhaps buy a working mouse?
[19:52] <seb128> design decisions should not be made based on broken hardware ;-)
[19:52] <MDC2> seb128, yep, it was a cheap crappy mouse, buying a new is on my todo list - anyone you could recommend?
[19:52] <MDC2> true true :-)
[19:52] <seb128> no
[19:52] <seb128> I never got a mouse with right click not working without a broken connection
[19:52] <MDC2> but its not *that* crappy..
[19:52] <seb128> and I had crappy mouses
[19:53] <seb128> well it you can click without getting several events it's not crappy right
[19:53] <seb128> it's broken
[19:53] <MDC2> well, its mostly working.. :-)
[19:53] <seb128> can't
[19:53] <seb128> excepted it's clicking for you
[19:53] <seb128> which is pretty much not working
[19:53] <MDC2> its a smart mouse... knows better than his owner
[19:54] <MDC2> he wants a folder now and then
[19:54] <seb128> so no point to change the menu selection if would move too ;-)
[19:55] <seb128> Ampelbein, chrisccoulson, huats: want to do some updates?
[19:56] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yes :) i'm currently working on g-c-c, but i must go and cook some dinner before i finish that
[19:56] <Ampelbein> seb128: hi, yeah, fire away!
[19:56] <seb128> chrisccoulson, ok, enjoy!
[19:56] <seb128> Ampelbein,
[19:56] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/deskbar-applet/2.27/deskbar-applet-2.27.90.tar.gz
[19:56] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-themes/2.27/gnome-themes-2.27.90.tar.gz
[19:57] <Ampelbein> ok
[19:57] <seb128> thanks
[20:25] <seb128> Laney, hey, how is the fspot update going?
[20:29] <MDC2> mac_v, did you find any always-icon bug?
[20:30] <MDC2> mac_v, noticed that gedit doesnt have icons for instance
[20:30] <mac_v> MDC2: hehe... bored aye... ;p i havent searched yet, just got tied up with something else , will inform you when i find one..
[20:31] <MDC2> mac_v, not bored directly ;-) have stuff to do.. but it would be nice to have icons where they belong in 9.10 :)
[20:33] <MDC2> mac_v, but don't rush - i will soon go eat something - but for tonight it would be nice to do a few patches :-)
[20:33] <Laney> seb128: Good, just closing bugs
[20:33] <seb128> cool
[20:33] <Laney> there might be a ptp regression though, don't know if it's my hardware
[20:33] <Laney> be a good idea to organise some testing
[20:33] <mac_v> MDC2: several icon bugs are not reported , since user have just turned the gconf option on...
[20:34] <seb128> we can figure that based on user feedback after upgrade
[20:34] <mac_v> MDC2: are you good with only metacity and naulitus? or any app?
[20:34] <seb128> best testing = upload
[20:34] <MDC2> mac_v, well... i can try any app
[20:34] <Laney> yeah I meant post upload
[20:34] <Laney> call for testers somewhere
[20:37] <mac_v> MDC2: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589808 , http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590661
[20:37]  * MDC2 goes looking into totem
[20:37] <mac_v> MDC2: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590661
[20:39] <MDC2> mac_v, the best would  to solve this one first as the current procedure to always show the icons are a little bit hacksish. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589842
[20:39] <MDC2> mac_v, but no problem for me..
[20:40] <MDC2> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589808 (already fixed in trunk)
[20:41] <mac_v> MDC2: right now ,only hacks ... the API will take time
[20:41] <MDC2> mac_v, yes it will :)
[20:42] <MDC2> mac_v, how about paolo borelli comment about numbering in http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590661
[20:45] <mac_v> MDC2: yup.. needs a patch , but that was not due to the recent gnome change
[20:46] <MDC2> mac_v, i'll create a patch for it
[20:46] <jtk001c> Question: What's a good software to burn .ISO to dvd?
[20:47] <mac_v> jtk001c: for help  > #ubuntu
[20:47] <jtk001c> k]
[20:51] <Ampelbein> seb128: bug 411583 and bug 411586 (both were trivial, no code changes... ;-)
[20:52] <Ampelbein> is anyone working on the seahorse update? if not, I'll take it.
[20:53] <seb128> Ampelbein, it's all yours
[21:42] <seb128> huats, lut
[22:09] <mac_v> seb128:  Bug #388949 has a patch , but upstream wants discussions in the mailing list ,  UX team wants to patch it in Ubuntu since its a simple thing... can it be done?
[22:10] <seb128> mac_v, I'm not really in favor of that, that would break all translations
[22:11] <seb128> mac_v, especially that djsiegel comment upstream suggest it's not so clear
[22:11] <mac_v> seb128: so , its a wishlist until upstream decides?
[22:12] <seb128> I would prefer having somebody to engage this discussion as requested upstream before we change
[22:12] <seb128> that would avoid breaking all translations and having to explain to upstream later why we didnt do what they asked for and changed in ubuntu only
[22:13] <Laney> seb128: I think it's ready, but I'd prefer meebey to review as I changed the build system
[22:13] <mac_v> seb128: ok
[22:14] <seb128> Laney, does it build? ;-)
[22:14] <seb128> Laney, we can upload to karmic and sync later
[22:14] <Laney> yes, and runs
[22:14] <Laney> if that's good enough for you...
[22:15] <seb128> Laney, alpha4 freeze is rsn and it would be nice to have it there for testing
[22:16] <Laney> ok
[22:16] <Laney> let me just whip up a karmic diff
[22:20] <djsiegel> hey seb128, mac_v
[22:20] <Laney> huh
[22:20] <seb128> hello djsiegel
[22:20] <Laney> I wonder why it doesn't pick up my LP: tags
[22:21] <djsiegel> So, we have this paper cut, "Clean up by name" -> "Arrange by name"
[22:21] <Laney> I get Closes: in .changes for debian, but not LP
[22:21] <seb128> Laney, did you use -v to include both changelog entries if you have 2?
[22:21] <Laney> yes
[22:21] <Laney> it picks up the debian ones :(
[22:21] <mac_v> djsiegel: seb128 was worried about breaking translations and moving without upstream consent
[22:21] <djsiegel> let me catch up on the bug real quick...
[22:21] <Laney> pfft I'll upload the diff and you can look ;)
[22:21] <seb128> you build on ubuntu?
[22:21] <Laney> yep
[22:22] <seb128> weird
[22:22] <seb128> upload I will have a look ;-)
[22:23] <seb128> djsiegel, I just said that if upstream asked to email a list I don't want to ignore the request and just upload
[22:23] <djsiegel> seb128: right I see
[22:24] <seb128> djsiegel, I'm fine with uploading to ubuntu if somebody do what they asked too do
[22:24] <seb128> to do
[22:24] <Laney> bug 410520
[22:24] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[22:24] <Laney> my pleasure
[22:25] <djsiegel> So, doesn't "clean up" on Windows start some wizard to put unused desktop items in a folder?
[22:25] <djsiegel> that's the main reason I think we should not use "clean up"
[22:25] <seb128> don't ask me about windows, I've no used it for years
[22:26] <djsiegel> I also agree with what someone said earlier, that it should transition to a persistent state "Keep Arranged by Name" or something
[22:26] <djsiegel> seb128: ok!
[22:26] <djsiegel> seb128: A thousand apologies ;)
[22:26] <mac_v> djsiegel: it does in windows
[22:27] <djsiegel> this mailinglists are tough...
[22:27] <seb128> djsiegel, no need to apology, I'm just pointing I'm not the one who will reply there ;-)
[22:27] <djsiegel> ok, mac_v, I need to do a progress report for r6 right now. Can you get the discussion going on those mailinglists?
[22:28] <mac_v> djsiegel: i think it would be best if you reported progress
[22:29] <mac_v> in the mailing list too
[22:29] <djsiegel> oh, ok, which one?
[22:29] <djsiegel> I just rarely get any response, and mailinglists always confuse me.
[22:30] <mac_v> djsiegel: http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/nautilus-list
[22:36] <lool> seb128: Didn't get that screen power saving bug since I kill gnome-power-manager
[22:36] <lool> seb128: Anything I can do to help debug it?
[22:36] <seb128> lool, not that I know, maybe bryce has ideas
[22:37] <seb128> it's not really my area I'm not sure what would be useful there
[22:37] <lool> k
[22:37] <bryce> lool, you're not seeing the screen blanking when gnome-power-manager is not running?
[22:37] <lool> bryce: I didn't so far
[22:38] <lool> It has been some days that I regularly kill GPM
[22:38] <lool> Perhaps 2.5 days
[22:38] <bryce> lool, well I think the next thing we need for debugging is exact steps to reproduce
[22:38] <bryce> lool, perhaps it would also be helpful to see if gpm has debugging info that can be turned on
[22:38] <lool> bryce: I can tell that nothing particular is happening when the screen shuts down
[22:38] <lool> It seems truly random
[22:38]  * bryce nods
[22:39] <bryce> well, bugs that are "truly random" are awfully hard to debug
[22:39] <seb128> bryce, debug infos for something not running?
[22:39] <MDC2> mac_v, should also the Documents menu have icons for the open tabs? (note they don't had them before, not the recent files in File either - but i'm fixing it)
[22:39] <bryce> seb128, well of course it'd need to be turned back on...
[22:39] <lool> bryce: Is there an option to log things like Xorg supending the screen?
[22:39] <bryce> lool, dunno
[22:40] <seb128> bryce, you think gpm infos are revelant if the bug is not a gpm one?
[22:40] <lool> I suspect GPM probes stuff regularly and we hit a bug in Xorg or something like that
[22:40] <mac_v> bryce: i dint notice you unassinged the "Arrange by Name" bug , and after realizing that you had a patch done i reassigned it to you, you dont want it assigned it to you ?
[22:40] <lool> bryce: Sorry do you have a bug id?  I can't come up with good search terms to find the bug
[22:40] <bryce> mac_v, I'm not planning to do any further work on it
[22:41] <mac_v> bryce: ok
[22:41] <lool> 397839
[22:41] <lool> On GPM
[22:41] <mac_v> MDC2: i dont understand
[22:41] <seb128> bug #397839
[22:42] <MDC2> mac_v, gedit has this "Document" menu which shows the current open files (with radio buttons) - should those too have icons? (they never had before)
[22:43] <mac_v> MDC2: NO, the radio button is enough
[22:43] <lool> http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/07/30/accidental-blanking-and-gnome-power-manager/
[22:44] <seb128> lool, right, seems they debugged it for a while
[22:44] <seb128> lool, see the redhat bug comments
[22:46] <bryce> 'gnome-power-manager --verbose'
[22:47] <seb128> the redhat bug seems to suggest an inhibit issue
[22:49] <mac_v> MDC2: i'd suggest you file new bugs for apps you want to fix , several are not filed
[22:49] <lool> ""I""
[22:49] <lool> tried logging the output of gpm by killing gpm first, and then restarting it
[22:49] <lool> with --verbose and --no-daemon options. There was no output at all when the
[22:49] <lool> screen flickered.
[22:49] <lool> bryce: ^
[22:49] <lool> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=501601#c25
[22:52] <MDC2> mac_v, ok - seems a little strange with no icons in the document menu though as they're object/documents.. but if radios is enough - np
[22:53] <mac_v> MDC2: if we add the icons then that woould throw off the menu padding for the rest of the menu ,
[22:53] <MDC2> mac_v, yes it would. so we need some exceptions in the HIG then :)
[22:56] <bryce> hmm, someone speculates that it relates to video
[22:58] <MDC2> mac_v, could you try something for me? are you running karmic up2date?
[22:58] <mac_v> MDC2: yup
[22:58] <mac_v> bryce: actually no, it happens even while typing
[22:59] <MDC2> mac_v, download this file and run "gedit window.c" and see if you get a segfault; http://www.mejlamej.nu/window.c
[23:00] <MDC2> mac_v, seems very strange, other files are working but not that one..
[23:00] <mac_v> MDC2: nope... works fine
[23:00] <mac_v> no errors
[23:00] <MDC2> did you have any gedit open before?
[23:00] <MDC2> gedit windows*
[23:00] <mac_v> no
[23:01] <MDC2> strange..
[23:01] <mac_v> MDC2: i tried both from terminal and by double click , no errors
[23:01] <MDC2> mac_v, i get a segfault in g_list_last...
[23:02] <MDC2> but only on that file
[23:02] <mac_v> ah... that is because you have edited the file
[23:02] <seb128> what is the crash stacktrace?
[23:02] <mac_v> MDC2: that is a known error, in karmic.  files which have been edited cause that error
[23:02] <MDC2> ahh.. ok :)
[23:04] <mac_v> MDC2: Bug #401934
[23:04] <MDC2> seb128, stack @ http://pastebin.com/d4b814e6f
[23:04] <MDC2> mac_v, ok - thanks
[23:04] <MDC2> mac_v, so it's not my fault then :-D
[23:04] <seb128> what mac_v said
[23:08] <seb128> asac, hum, for some reason the firefox upgrade broke greamonkey there, known?
[23:08] <seb128> asac, also it dropped my custom start page to put mozilla there
[23:09] <MDC2> mac_v, something like this; http://www.mejlamej.nu/gedit-doc-icons.png
[23:09] <mac_v> MDC2: looks good
[23:10] <MDC2> mac_v, can't look any other way :-)
[23:10] <mac_v> MDC2: meh... can look odd ;p
[23:10] <MDC2> why doesnt gnome core applications have one coding standard style?
[23:11] <seb128> because they are not done by one coder in his corner or coming from the same place
[23:11] <seb128> they are a collection of random softwares made by people out of GNOME and added there over time
[23:11] <MDC2> the more important to have one style..
[23:11] <MDC2> but i understand why it is that way..
[23:18] <seb128> asac, I think I just clicked the wrong button on upgrade cf config
[23:21] <MDC2> mac_v, fyi - patch committed
[23:23] <MDC2> any libwnck developer here to answer a quick question about wnck_window_set_geometry ()?
[23:24] <MDC2> when setting x to 0, why does it move the window to x = 4?
[23:25] <seb128> MDC2, vuntz is upstream for libwnck
[23:25] <MDC2> vuntz, ping?
[23:30] <MDC2> vuntz, nevermind - found it
[23:34] <TheMuso> Good morning.
[23:34] <seb128> hey TheMuso
[23:34] <seb128> had a nice trip back?
[23:35] <TheMuso> seb128: It was long, but  uneventful, thanks.
[23:36]  * TheMuso is getting to his corner of GNOME update land.
[23:45] <chrisccoulson> at this rate, there will be no more gnome updates left for me to do
[23:45] <chrisccoulson> i must hurry up ;)
[23:46] <seb128> lol
[23:46] <seb128> don't worry I let you the hard ones :-p
[23:46] <chrisccoulson> heh, yeah, that's ok. i like a challenge!
[23:46] <seb128> ;-)
[23:46] <chrisccoulson> but it makes it look like i work at half the speed of everybody else ;)
[23:47] <seb128> no you just picked the hardest update
[23:47] <seb128> the ones I've been doing are mostly dch run, build, upload
[23:47] <seb128> some easy patches updates but that's about it
[23:47] <chrisccoulson> you're winding down in preparation for your holiday now ;)
[23:48] <seb128> lol, no
[23:48] <seb128> but GNOME updates tend to be easier after freeze
[23:48] <seb128> ie less intrusive changes so less patches breakages
[23:48] <chrisccoulson> yeah, they're definately starting to get a bit easier:)
[23:49] <seb128> I say that but let's wait for vuntz to wake up later
[23:49] <chrisccoulson> less packaging to do - i'll need to start looking for some crashes to fix soon!
[23:49] <seb128> ie to have gnome-panel, gnome-session, etc
[23:54] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i think the gnome-session update will be quite easy when it arrives
[23:54] <chrisccoulson> i just took a look in git
[23:54] <chrisccoulson> mainly translation updates ;)
[23:54] <seb128> how boring ;-)
[23:55] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it's not exciting enough now ;)
[23:55] <chrisccoulson> i should have a go at fixing this screensaver locking issue in gnome-session really
[23:58] <chrisccoulson> there's not much changed in gnome-panel either
[23:58] <chrisccoulson> there were some changes committed that were reverted a day later