[01:00] <doctormo> Aye
[01:01] <pleia2> bodhi doesn't appear to be online
[01:01]  * pleia2 nudges Vantrax 
[01:01] <pleia2> I think this is around when he starts work monday morning
[01:02] <cprofitt> #startmeeting
[01:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 19:02. The chair is cprofitt.
[01:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[01:02] <cprofitt> Welcome to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project Meeting
[01:02] <Vantrax> yeah, Im at work, I have a quick meeting with work atm unfortunately but i approve of the structure
[01:02] <Vantrax> ill see you all in a little bit
[01:02] <cprofitt> pleia2, please start as you are the only topic
[01:03] <pleia2> ok, so we want to vote upon the basics of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure
[01:03] <pleia2> if everyone could scroll down to the bottom of the page you will find the notes from our last meeting
[01:03]  * cprofitt nods
[01:04] <pleia2> the top of the page is generalizations that were drafted, the bottom is pretty much what we decided is voteable
[01:04] <pleia2> so, at the bottom under "General Membership" - any comments or changes?
[01:04] <cprofitt> so the part under the meeting 7.27.2009 section
[01:04] <pleia2> yep
[01:05] <cprofitt> and not the Roles or Moderation sections... or those too
[01:05] <pleia2> starting with general membership
[01:06] <pleia2> we'll get to the rest in a couple minutes :)
[01:06] <cprofitt> I have no additions to 'General Membership'
[01:06] <pleia2> we deferred discussion of how we'd approve since only bodhi and I were around
[01:07] <cprofitt> at this point it is just you and I...
[01:07] <pleia2> any comments on that? I'm inclined to say current members +1 similar to beginners team
[01:07] <pleia2> doctormo is here :)
[01:07] <cprofitt> doctormo, you here?
[01:07] <pleia2> well he was a few minutes ago! hehe
[01:07] <cprofitt> to be clear the 'general team' will be anyone can join... not 'invite or approval'
[01:08] <pleia2> there is approval
[01:08] <doctormo> cprofitt: sure
[01:08] <pleia2> but the approval process is very easy
[01:08] <pleia2> they just introduce themselves and sign the CoC pretty much
[01:08] <cprofitt> ok...
[01:08] <cprofitt> I can vote +1 on that...
[01:08] <cprofitt> shall we call a vote?
[01:09] <pleia2> then "someone" says "ok" and someone on the board adds them to the team
[01:09] <doctormo> I want to hear about how that happens
[01:09]  * cprofitt distracted by kids
[01:10] <pleia2> doctormo: someone is interested in the team, they post an introduction with their skillset to the mailing list, irc channel, or forums (we don't have a forum, so maybe not)
[01:10] <pleia2> we confirm they have signed the CoC and add them to the team
[01:10] <pleia2> by "we" I'm not sure who, or who determines whether the introduction is suitable
[01:10] <doctormo> To me, there is no such thing as 'membership', there is just privilages which come about from the way in which you work to progress the system. Only the groups where we have production and administration need to have closed, approval only mecanics.
[01:10] <pleia2> I think any introduction beyond "Hi, I like cake, your team is neat" is fine ;)
[01:11] <pleia2> hm, so you don't want a general team?
[01:12] <doctormo> My concern is that we would miss an opertunity to create a space for students and non-volunteer teachers to become a strong self helping community by being exlusive. Even with such easy access, it's still barriers which need not apply to users.
[01:12] <doctormo> I fully agree with having the stated restrictions of contributary groups, it's a good way to go.
[01:12] <pleia2> so you think there should be a general team, but it should be open?
[01:12] <cprofitt> pleia2, that is an issue -- we need to define the 'we'
[01:13] <pleia2> cprofitt: yes, that was my point
[01:13] <doctormo> pleia2: I don't think there should be a general team, it creates an 'us' and 'them' without defining the rolls and responsibilities of what that means.
[01:13] <pleia2> the "barrier" is only because we want people to introduce themselves, so we have some idea what skills our members have, we can ask them directly when projects come up
[01:14] <pleia2> otherwise it's just some other team on LP that they join and we know nothing about them or why they're interested or anything
[01:14] <cprofitt> I am for a 'team', a 'council' and sub-teams defined by roles
[01:14] <pleia2> cprofitt: +1
[01:14] <cprofitt> pleia2, if there is no activity requirement -- then why do we care about the introduction?
[01:14] <doctormo> pleia2: The idea of the users team is to be a mailing list, not much more. People who are contactable, a pool of people who can be progressed into other teams.
[01:14] <Buuntu> I think the whole team thing is a really good idea though, it gets new users sort of hooked and makes them feel more in the community
[01:15] <cprofitt> +1 doctormo
[01:15] <pleia2> cprofitt: because of what I just said, it'd be nice to know why they are interested, what skills they have and want to contribute
[01:15] <cprofitt> pleia2, it would... but does it matter if they tell us before or after joining?
[01:15] <Buuntu> *speaking as a new member*
[01:16] <pleia2> cprofitt: I'm worried that they'll never tell us, the idea is to provide a process where they feel it's appropriate and expected to provide an introduction
[01:16] <pleia2> I mean, we don't have to do it, but that was the thought pattern behind asking for an intro :)
[01:16] <cprofitt> we can 'remove' people that do not introduce themselves...
[01:16] <pleia2> removing and rejecting sends a bad message, as polite as the rejection letter that accompanies it is
[01:16] <doctormo> I would say that an open and destinct users team could be advertised as a student help and support channel. Everything else you could do as planned.
[01:17] <cprofitt> I just think it is difficult to have multiple approval points and an introduction requirement
[01:17] <cprofitt> NYS team works that way...
[01:17] <pleia2> cprofitt: multiple approval points?
[01:17] <doctormo> Put it on a 1 year renew and remove anyone who removes themselves from the mailing list.
[01:17] <cprofitt> and I do not approve anyone... because I never see the introduction
[01:18] <doctormo> cprofitt: We have no approval process in MA, we accept anyone but reserve the right to exclude.
[01:18] <doctormo> In case there is trouble.
[01:18] <cprofitt> what does reserve the right to exclude mean?
[01:18] <jimi_hendrix> sorry to interrupt, but can i get a log?
[01:19] <pleia2> cprofitt: there have been spammers and very inappropriate usernames (reported and deleted) try to join the pennsylvania team
[01:20] <cprofitt> jimi_hendrix, we can answer that at the end
[01:20] <cprofitt> pleia2, I can appreciate that...
[01:20] <doctormo> cprofitt: It means if someone causes trouble, they'll get kicked out.
[01:20] <jimi_hendrix> cprofitt, ok
[01:20] <cprofitt> if we have an introduction and CoC sig -- what will serve as the introduction?
[01:20] <pleia2> jimi_hendrix: http://princessleia.com/temp/learning.txt
[01:20] <cprofitt> will it me email? forum? wiki?
[01:21] <pleia2> cprofitt: yes, that is what the introduction is, as I said: they post an introduction with their skillset to the mailing list, irc channel, or forums (we don't have a forum, so maybe not)
[01:21] <pleia2> whatever is most comfortable to them
[01:21] <pleia2> so it could be "I'm a professor at $college, I am interested in helping course development, I have signed the CoC"
[01:21] <pleia2> in IRC
[01:21] <cprofitt> so the mailing list can be joined by anyone.
[01:21] <pleia2> then we say "cool, added"
[01:21] <pleia2> yes, the mailing list is open to everyone right now, and should stay that way
[01:22] <cprofitt> I would think that we should have ONE method of introduction...
[01:22] <cprofitt> not multiple...
[01:22] <cprofitt> so it is less confusing for the 'approval' team to look at
[01:22] <cprofitt> but that is a procedural thing
[01:22] <doctormo> pleia2: So long as that's the case, then I have no further objections. I just figured the mailing list would be a launchpad mailing list.
[01:22] <pleia2> cprofitt: not everyone is comfortable with introducing themselves on IRC, not everyone is comfortable introducing themselves on a forever-archived mailin glist
[01:23] <pleia2> doctormo: no, our mailing list is on lists.ubuntu.com, our LP one has been retired
[01:23] <cprofitt> I am ok with an approval process as long as it is quick and does not get tied to a single person
[01:23] <pleia2> cprofitt: so I figure the approval process is one of us (the board) sees the introduction on IRC or the mailing list, and adds them to the team
[01:23] <doctormo> pleia2: Ah well, that's a mecanical thing, I would have prefered it the other way round. But it's not so important.
[01:23] <bodhizazen> oic, sorry I am late
[01:24] <cprofitt> pleia2, that works for me...
[01:24] <doctormo> OK I have to go, I think things have been sorted out.
[01:24] <pleia2> ok
[01:24] <cprofitt> I just want to make sure that if the board has 8 people or 20 people that all those people feel as though they can approve
[01:24] <pleia2> yeah, everyone on the board should feel comfortable approving
[01:24] <doctormo> Public mailing list, to be advertised as student/teacher help and support as well as pool of potential contributors, general team for contributors ith possible seperate mailing list (devel)?
[01:24] <cprofitt> #vote Approve General Membership
[01:25] <bodhizazen> +1 pleia2 , I do not mind people hanging out, but I would like somebody to know who they are =)
[01:25] <doctormo> cprofitt: You can't have a board of more than 12 or of 8, bad numbers.
[01:25] <pleia2> doctormo: I think we can define these roles at a later date - but I think such lists may be required at some point
[01:25] <pleia2> I don't want to micromanage too much at this point
[01:25] <cprofitt> [VOTE]Approve Membership Structure as currently listed on wiki
[01:25] <MootBot> Please vote on: Approve Membership Structure as currently listed on wiki.
[01:25] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[01:25] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[01:25]  * bodhizazen would like to keep mailing lists to a minimum =)
[01:25] <cprofitt> +1
[01:25] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[01:25] <pleia2> +1
[01:25] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[01:25] <doctormo> +1
[01:25] <MootBot> +1 received from doctormo. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[01:25] <bodhizazen> +1
[01:25] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[01:25] <jimi_hendrix> 1 sec let me skim this
[01:26] <cprofitt> Any last votes?
[01:26] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[01:26] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[01:26] <jimi_hendrix> +1
[01:26] <jimi_hendrix> aww
[01:26] <jimi_hendrix> cprofitt, :(
[01:27] <pleia2> jimi_hendrix: we'll count you in spirit! :)
[01:27] <cprofitt> [AGREED] Accept Membership as on Wiki
[01:27] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Accept Membership as on Wiki
[01:27] <cprofitt> as there are no other topics on the agenda are there any topics from the floor?
[01:27] <jimi_hendrix> pleia2, thats not as good
[01:27] <pleia2> cprofitt: I'd quickly like to review Roles and Moderation
[01:27] <doctormo> cprofitt: Still no inter-teaching of how to use moodle, all my course material is flapping about as pdfs
[01:27] <cprofitt> ok...
[01:27] <bodhizazen> I have one topic
[01:28] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Roles
[01:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Roles
[01:28] <cprofitt> you have the floor pleia2
[01:28] <doctormo> But I'll have to come back to that since I do have to go 40 mins ago.
[01:28] <cprofitt> ok doctormo
[01:28] <pleia2> so, the Roles need more discussion, doctormo had thoughts too he put on the wiki, I don't think we need to define them right now
[01:29] <pleia2> but as things get rolling we'll want to probably create subteams that we first just define on wiki pages, maybe later devote LP groups if they decide they want mailing lists (like doctormo's idea of a -devel and -users list)
[01:29] <bodhizazen> I think we need to define roles via Moodle
[01:29] <cprofitt> +1 bodhizazen
[01:29] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2 as well
[01:29] <pleia2> but there are parts of the team that has nothing to do with Moodle
[01:29] <jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, whats the moodle link again
[01:29] <pleia2> remember, we're not just focused on our Moodle site :)
[01:29] <cprofitt> I think roles both inside and outside of moodle
[01:30] <bodhizazen> learn.ufbt.net
[01:30] <pleia2> we also include real life classroom courses, IRC courses, neither of which may ues moodle
[01:30] <bodhizazen> I am not opposed to that pleia2
[01:30] <cprofitt> pleia2, would the courses be listed on the moodle site?
[01:30] <bodhizazen> Is there anyone who know moodle well enough to outline the moodle roles ?
[01:30]  * cprofitt senses a digression
[01:30] <pleia2> cprofitt: which courses?
[01:31] <cprofitt> lets skips that for post meeting...
[01:31] <pleia2> ok
[01:31] <bodhizazen> and pleia2 and doctormo can outline the non-moodle roles ?
[01:31] <cprofitt> so the main point is that we have to develop the roles...
[01:31]  * jimi_hendrix likes the idea of IRC courses
[01:31] <pleia2> cprofitt: right
[01:31] <pleia2> jimi_hendrix: Ubuntu Classroom has IRC courses already :)
[01:31] <cprofitt> [AGREED] More definition of roles should be worked on
[01:31] <MootBot> AGREED received:  More definition of roles should be worked on
[01:31] <jimi_hendrix> i know
[01:31] <pleia2> not many of late though, need more
[01:31] <pleia2> ok, Moderation
[01:31] <pleia2> I don't think this requires much discussion honestly
[01:32] <cprofitt> [ACTION] pleia2 will add non-Moodle roles to wiki and others will view make comments
[01:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pleia2 will add non-Moodle roles to wiki and others will view make comments
[01:32] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Content update by bodhizazen
[01:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Content update by bodhizazen
[01:32] <bodhizazen> jimi_hendrix, we can discuss irc classed with the BT also if youlike
[01:32] <bodhizazen> Oh, thanks cprofitt
[01:32] <bodhizazen> Just wanted an update, where are we on content ?
[01:32] <jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, s/classed/classes/ or am i reading that wrong
[01:33] <pleia2> bodhizazen: doctormo is developing server classes (he has links on his blog I can dig out if you'd like)
[01:33] <pleia2> I'm also working with him to launch desktop classes which our LoCo team will use, I promised to write the first section
[01:33] <bodhizazen> I was thinking of developing a topic on installation
[01:33] <pleia2> but neither doctormo nor I is familiar with Moodle
[01:33] <pleia2> so our drafts are, as he put it, flapping about as pdfs
[01:34] <jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, the installer is self explaining?
[01:34] <pleia2> (actually, mine are still raw txt)
[01:34] <cprofitt> pleia2, I can assist with Moodle course design... I have created two on a different site
[01:34] <bodhizazen> pleia2, you and doctormo can use the test server if you like
[01:34] <bodhizazen> not really jimi_hendrix
[01:34] <pleia2> cprofitt: I am completely useless with design
[01:34] <cprofitt> k - we can work out a time for that then
[01:34] <bodhizazen> People do not know how to say partition a hard drive for example
[01:34] <cprofitt> any  thing else in there bodhizazen ?
[01:34] <bodhizazen> no cprofitt
[01:35] <jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, i had no problem with it when i first installed xD
[01:35] <pleia2> bodhizazen: both doctormo and I are *very* busy, I am +1 with his request to have a moodle course that we can take ourselves rather than hacking about with it, moodle is confusing
[01:35] <bodhizazen> PM jimi_hendrix
[01:35] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Moderation by pleia2
[01:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Moderation by pleia2
[01:35] <cprofitt> pleia2, there is a course on the site about Moodle...
[01:35] <cprofitt> you can both take it
[01:35] <pleia2> oh yes, so moderation, bodhizazen has experience with the beginners team on this
[01:35] <pleia2> cprofitt: oh ok :)
[01:36] <bodhizazen> I am hoping we will not need moderation
[01:36] <pleia2> pretty standard Ubuntu rules apply, try to settle disputes between the specific parties, if that doesn't work they can come to the board, if that is a problem they go to the CC
[01:36] <bodhizazen> I volunteer my services if needed
[01:36] <bodhizazen> At the moment I do not think we need anything beyond the CoC
[01:36] <cprofitt> +1 bodhizazen
[01:37] <pleia2> +1
[01:37] <cprofitt> I think the 'rules' and moderation will 'evolve'
[01:37] <pleia2> pretty much we just want users to know that if they feel slighted, there is a procedure for discussing problems
[01:37] <bodhizazen> We could make some general rules if we like, but I suggest solidifying them as we go
[01:37] <pleia2> CoC is fine for now, I think
[01:37] <bodhizazen> pleia2, refer them either to me or one of us 5
[01:37]  * pleia2 nods
[01:37] <cprofitt> yeah... I think that works...
[01:38] <cprofitt> Any other topics from the floor
[01:38] <bodhizazen> depending on how big the problem is and how much (or little) you all wish to moderate
[01:38] <pleia2> cprofitt: I think just a general "what do we do now" note is in order :)
[01:39] <pleia2> I want to bring more people onto the team, moodle theme is still hanging out there, but I want to start getting introductions from people and adding them to the team, queuing up some course ideas, blogging about this, etc
[01:39] <pleia2> we've held off on all of this until we had membership sorted, which I think we have now :)
[01:40] <pleia2> without a doubt, doctormo and I will need help with these server and desktop courses, I need to start gathering that talent
[01:41] <bodhizazen> +1 pleia2
[01:41]  * cprofitt grandmother on phone
[01:41] <bodhizazen> pleia2, you took the words out of my mouth
[01:41] <pleia2> :)
[01:45] <bodhizazen> I am struggling at the moment
[01:45] <pleia2> with?
[01:45] <bodhizazen> I am used to multiple monitors
[01:46] <pleia2> hehe
[01:46] <pleia2> well, once we get cprofitt's $.02 and vote I think we can wrap up this meeting
[01:48] <bodhizazen> ok
[01:48] <bodhizazen> thank you by the way
[01:48] <pleia2> for?
[01:48] <bodhizazen> you do a lot for Ubuntu
[01:49] <pleia2> oh, welcome :) thanks to you too! hosting and all the stuff you do with forums and beginners team and things
[01:49] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[01:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:49.
[01:49] <bodhizazen> LOL
[01:49] <pleia2> cprofitt: no vote then?
[01:49] <cprofitt> distracted]
[01:50] <pleia2> hm
[01:50] <bodhizazen> I do not think we need to vote pleia2 , it is a natural progression
[01:50] <pleia2> bodhizazen: alright
[01:50] <pleia2> I had been holding off blabbering too much about the team because I knew we were waiting on our big bloggy announcements
[01:50] <pleia2> just wanted to make sure there was no one who wanted that to continue
[01:51] <Vantrax> okies, im back now
[01:52] <bodhizazen> I think we are ready for the recruitment phase
[01:53] <bodhizazen> Followed by outlining and adding content
[01:53] <bodhizazen> I will work on some documentation for new users
[01:53] <pleia2> ok, great :)
[01:53] <bodhizazen> I convinced my parents to go with Ubuntu
[01:53] <bodhizazen> and my father has given me some valuable feedback
[01:53] <pleia2> cool
[01:53] <bodhizazen> things us nerds take for granted
[01:54] <Raidsong> i convinced a friend to go with ubuntu
[01:54]  * pleia2 nods
[01:54] <bodhizazen> nice Raidsong
[01:54] <pleia2> ok, I think we can take this back to #ubuntu-learning :)
[01:54] <pleia2> thanks everyone
[01:54] <Raidsong> no so valuable feedback
[01:54] <bodhizazen> I was just going to suggest #ubuntu-beginners , but learning works too
[14:33] <Ng> --help
[14:41] <Daviey> ++
[14:42] <czajkowski> Ng: you just gonna ask this in channels ? :)
[14:42] <Ng> I just said that in every irssi window I have open
[14:42] <Ng> because I win at /foreach :(
[14:43] <Daviey> czajkowski: I asked him the same thing :)
[14:43] <czajkowski> Ng: how odd
[14:43] <czajkowski> Daviey: great minds think alike or something
[14:43] <Ng> it was not intended to happen ;)
[14:44] <Daviey> czajkowski: And idiots follow suit
[14:45] <czajkowski> never heard that