[13:59] <mcasadevall> #startmeeting
[13:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:59. The chair is mcasadevall.
[13:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:59] <mcasadevall> Who's here?
[14:00] <ScottK> What's the meeting?
[14:00] <mcasadevall> Mobile
[14:00] <mcasadevall> morning StevenK
[14:00]  * StevenK shores
[14:00]  * ScottK will be here if it gets qt4-x11 fixed on armel.
[14:00] <mcasadevall> ScottK, DEPWAIT new build hardware
[14:01] <lool> hey
[14:01] <plars> hi
[14:01] <ScottK> Grumble.
[14:01] <mcasadevall> morning lool plars
[14:01] <ScottK> mcasadevall: Is there timeline for this?
[14:02] <mcasadevall> ScottK, soonish I hope
[14:02] <StevenK> Have we started the meeting yet, or did I just miss the #startmeeting?
[14:02] <mcasadevall> StevenK, you just missed #startmeeting
[14:02] <dyfet> Hi
[14:02]  * mcasadevall pokes ogra, dyfet
[14:02] <mcasadevall> oh
[14:02] <mcasadevall> paulliu isn't even online
[14:05] <mcasadevall> I guess that's everyone who's going to show
[14:05] <mcasadevall> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811
[14:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811
[14:05] <mcasadevall> [topic] action item review
[14:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  action item review
[14:05] <mcasadevall> [topic] #
[14:05] <mcasadevall> NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[14:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[14:05] <mcasadevall> c/o
[14:06] <mcasadevall> [topic] GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[14:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[14:06] <mcasadevall> GrueMaster, you awake?
[14:06] <mcasadevall> guess not ...
[14:07] <mcasadevall> [topic] Spec Review
[14:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Review
[14:07] <mcasadevall> lool, so if I understand our new spec review now, we all update the status, and just give a small update individually in th emeeting, or am I way off?
[14:07] <lool> Right
[14:07] <lool> [link] http://paste.ubuntu.com/251356/
[14:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/251356/
[14:07] <lool> it's what I have in progress right now
[14:07] <lool> There are some bugs
[14:08] <lool> And mainly missing status i nspecs
[14:08] <StevenK> Indeed, -wubi is missing
[14:09] <lool> There are some dups due to the Recently updated blueprints link
[14:09] <lool> So I'll refine this script output but it's not ready for this week
[14:09] <mcasadevall> Ok
[14:09] <ogra> how about we use http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/karmic/report.html
[14:09] <mcasadevall> [topic] lool's status
[14:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool's status
[14:09] <ogra> tough thats not in order by developer
[14:09] <lool> ogra: Hmm I'm basing on that script already
[14:10] <lool> mcasadevall: Nothing much to report on my spec; just discussed stuff about it with the cloud team last week; didn't want to work on it as it's not very team dependent
[14:10] <lool> So I preferred doing team stuff over the sprint
[14:10] <mcasadevall> [topic] ogra's specs
[14:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's specs
[14:11] <ogra> mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui -> have to fix some issues in qemu this week
[14:11] <ogra> mobile-karmic-freescale-desktop -> waiting for new linux metapackage which should hit the archive this afternoon
[14:11] <ogra> we'll build A4 from universe
[14:11] <ogra> (kernel and meta in universe)
[14:12] <ogra> that gives me some freedom wrt freeze
[14:12] <ogra> thats all
[14:12] <mcasadevall> [topic] NCommander's specs
[14:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's specs
[14:12] <mcasadevall> Not a whole lot to report, Installer changes are still dep-wait mostly on the kernel
[14:12] <ogra> which spec is that ?
[14:13] <mcasadevall> ogra, mobile-karmic-marvell-desktop
[14:13] <ogra> :)
[14:13] <ogra> how about the uboot setup and initramfs issues ?
[14:13] <mcasadevall> ogra, depwait email from Marvell
[14:13] <ogra> any progress on the debian-cd scripts ?
[14:14] <mcasadevall> ogra, no, I had no machine most of the weekend and on Monda
[14:14] <ogra> ok
[14:15] <mcasadevall> I'm currently back home so I'm in much better shape w.r.t. to this
[14:15] <mcasadevall> anyway
[14:15] <mcasadevall> [topic] dyfet's specs
[14:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  dyfet's specs
[14:15] <dyfet> I created a working seed for a lxde desktop (lubuntu) and I am just finishing a meta package for it.
[14:15] <dyfet> I also am investigating several arm/banshee issues, and yesterday I had some difficulties getting my env back running here which are now resolved.
[14:16] <lool> Good
[14:16] <dyfet> I think thats all :)
[14:16] <mcasadevall> [topic] plars's specs
[14:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  plars's specs
[14:17] <plars> the status I have on there is pretty much up to date
[14:17] <mcasadevall> [topic] StevenK's specs
[14:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK's specs
[14:17] <StevenK> -wubi is my only one
[14:18] <mcasadevall> ok
[14:18] <mcasadevall> Beside GrueMaster and paulliu did I miss anyone?
[14:18] <StevenK> Selecting UNR as the environment and then clicking Install does nothing, I'm going to talk to Evan and/or Agostino about it.
[14:20] <mcasadevall> [topic] Any Other Business
[14:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[14:20]  * plars upgraded to karmic after the sprint, yay!
[14:20] <StevenK> Alpha 4 is this week, I want testers!
[14:21] <mcasadevall> Ok
[14:21] <mcasadevall> going once
[14:21] <mcasadevall> twice
[14:21] <mcasadevall> #endmeeting
[14:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:21.
[14:25] <czajkowski> very efficent meeting
[14:25] <lool> czajkowski: I appreciate that as well  :)
[14:26] <StevenK> It was lool begging for this format
[14:26] <lool> Well it's not truly there yet since we didn't get all status in a web page
[14:59] <cjwatson> afternoon [tech board]]
[14:59] <cjwatson> I poked Mark; Scott is on holiday
[14:59] <cjwatson> mdz: here?
[15:00] <mdz> cjwatson: yep
[15:00] <mdz> cjwatson: clan has reminded him
[15:01] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.
[15:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:01] <cjwatson> Keybuk: ah, thanks for showing up, I know you're on holiday
[15:02] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions
[15:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions
[15:02] <cjwatson> (from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/July2009)
[15:02] <cjwatson> Colin to set up interviews with developers regarding upload privilege reorganisation (for ArchiveReorganisation)
[15:02] <cjwatson> done yesterday; currently engaging in several dozen separate little conversations, although mostly just gathering data right now
[15:02] <Keybuk> cjwatson: holiday basically means playing Tales of Monkey Island while catching up with e-mail, blogs and podcasts ;)
[15:03] <cjwatson> Keybuk: one of those outdoor activity holidays then
[15:03] <cjwatson> Action: Matt to contact TB nominees to confirm they wish to stand
[15:03] <cjwatson> mdz: did they all say yes?
[15:04]  * cjwatson parallelises slightly
[15:04] <cjwatson> Action: Scott to implement Developer Membership Board proposal (LP, mailing list, documentation, etc.)
[15:04] <cjwatson> Keybuk: where does this stand?
[15:04] <mdz> cjwatson: sorry, distracted
[15:04] <Keybuk> cjwatson: sprint, etc. not even picked up ball yet, let along dropped it
[15:04] <mdz> cjwatson: I emailed technical-board@ with their responses, everyone agreed to stand
[15:05] <cjwatson> I know the feeling. Will carry over
[15:05] <cjwatson> [ACTION] Scott to implement Developer Membership Board proposal (LP, mailing list, documentation, etc.)
[15:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Scott to implement Developer Membership Board proposal (LP, mailing list, documentation, etc.)
[15:05] <cjwatson> Action: Jono to see that documentation is updated to reflect the Developer Membership Board
[15:05] <cjwatson> this is presumably blocked on the implementation
[15:05] <cjwatson> [ACTION] Action: Jono to see that documentation is updated to reflect the Developer Membership Board
[15:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Action: Jono to see that documentation is updated to reflect the Developer Membership Board
[15:05] <mdz> correct
[15:05] <cjwatson> Action: Matt to communicate the new patent policy
[15:05] <cjwatson> done, right?
[15:06] <cjwatson> Action: Colin to update http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
[15:07] <cjwatson> unfortunately I only noticed today that I haven't actually got login details yet; apparently newz2000 got derailed by the wiki subthread
[15:07] <cjwatson> I think there are still things that ought to stay on the website that need to be updated, so I've asked again on that
[15:07] <cjwatson> [ACTION] Colin to update http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
[15:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Colin to update http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
[15:07] <mdz> cjwatson: yes
[15:07] <cjwatson> Action: Jono to draft text to communicate the TB's willingness to review key topics submitted by the community
[15:08] <cjwatson> jono: did this happen? I think I missed it
[15:08] <jono> cjwatson, sorry, not had a chance to yet, same reason as Keybuk
[15:08] <jono> I can certainly have it ready this week
[15:08] <cjwatson> [ACTION] Jono to draft text to communicate the TB's willingness to review key topics submitted by the community
[15:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Jono to draft text to communicate the TB's willingness to review key topics submitted by the community
[15:08] <jono> possibly eventoday
[15:08] <cjwatson> Action: Colin to discuss with Bdale (Debian technical committee chair) about having a Debian representative on the Ubuntu TB
[15:08] <jono> even today
[15:09] <cjwatson> started, but Bdale would like to engage with us to figure out a bit more of what the role would entail
[15:09] <cjwatson> ... but nobody's answered :)
[15:10] <cjwatson> so personally I'd like to see that all or most significant technical discussions (as opposed to more local governance kinds of things) have a Debian seat at the table, for purposes of advice, history, liaison, etc.
[15:10] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't think we can establish the scope of the role without Debian involvement
[15:10] <mdz> so that's sort of part of the role
[15:11] <cjwatson> right. but the above is a sane kind of general goal, subject to people's availability ...?
[15:11] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Debian TC liaison
[15:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Debian TC liaison
[15:11] <mdz> cjwatson: yes
[15:12] <cjwatson> ok, I'll take that back to the thread I started
[15:12] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Technical Board nominations
[15:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Technical Board nominations
[15:12] <mdz> someone to provide a Debian point of view and liaison on technical issues which would benefit from coordination between the projects
[15:12] <cjwatson> mdz: is this now ready for the vote to start?
[15:12] <mdz> cjwatson: yes, has been for nearly two weeks
[15:13] <cjwatson> whose action is this? sabdfl's, as TB admin?
[15:13] <sabdfl> i can setup votes
[15:13] <mdz> yes, sabdfl has in his mailbox the list of nominees who have agreed to stand for a vote
[15:13] <cjwatson> [ACTION] sabdfl to create and announce TB vote
[15:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to create and announce TB vote
[15:13] <mdz> sent 30 July, "Technical Board nominations"
[15:13] <cjwatson> I'll skip DAB, covered earlier
[15:13] <sabdfl> we have a vote process problem, in that LP is not setup to pick m of n
[15:14] <sabdfl> i don't have a good solution
[15:14] <cjwatson> also covered current archive reorganisation earlier (interviews in progress; seems that the bulk of people want to go for generalist access)
[15:14] <cjwatson> sabdfl: set up devotee? O:-)
[15:14] <mdz> surveymonkey? :-)
[15:15] <jono> mdz, :-)
[15:15] <Daviey> openid enabled django based voting site :)
[15:15] <jono> lets keep it simple, surveymonkey seems ideal
[15:16] <sabdfl> jono: how to restrict access?
[15:16] <mdz> I was kidding...
[15:16] <mdz> sabdfl: we would email each dev a link with a token
[15:16] <sabdfl> mdz: fine by me, easy to script
[15:16] <jono> mdz, really? seems like it could be suitable to recieve votes
[15:16] <mdz> ok, I withdraw the joke and put it forward as a proposal :-)
[15:17] <jono> sabdfl, you can invite specific email addresses
[15:17] <sabdfl> jono: even better
[15:17] <mdz> all we would need is a list of email addresses out of Launchpad to copy/paste into it
[15:17] <sabdfl> easy
[15:17]  * jono is victorious
[15:17] <jono> :P
[15:17] <sabdfl> ok, let's do that
[15:17] <cjwatson> err, not to turn into an election methods nerd, but m-of-n votes are actually sort of non-trivial in terms of how the votes are resolved. I wasn't aware LP hadn't already settled this
[15:17] <cjwatson> what voting method do we use?
[15:18] <mdz> cjwatson: the simplest possible, I suppose...everyone chooses M out of N, and we tally the totals
[15:18] <mdz> unless there's a voting widget
[15:18] <cjwatson> so no transfers?
[15:19] <Daviey> I raised in the previous meeting that, it was my memory that LP Polls only allowed a single selection of candidate.. Question, followed by X options.. with one vote.
[15:19] <Keybuk> first past the post seems simple enough for our needs here
[15:19] <sabdfl> there's no voting widget
[15:20] <sabdfl> there are multiple choice (many options) but no way to constrain the number of choices made, afaics
[15:20] <cjwatson> I guess that's OK, though I haven't thought about it deeply; if you guys think FPTP is OK then let's do that. (In fact it's really "not-last-past-the-post" since this is a 5-of-6 election isn't it?)
[15:20] <sabdfl> first past the post would be horrible at the tail end, largely random
[15:21] <mdz> sabdfl: if you're speaking of surveymonkey, you can limit the number of choices
[15:21] <sabdfl> ok, i propose surveymonkey unless a better option jumps out of a quick google
[15:21] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I've lost all grip on number of nominations and/or seats ;-)
[15:21] <cjwatson> for 5-of-6 it means the loser will simply be the person whom most people don't select
[15:21] <jono> I may be getting confused, but surely we just have a surveymonkey survey with one question with the candidates, open for a set time period and we invite all devs to choose one person
[15:21] <jono> is it much more complex than that?
[15:22] <sabdfl> jono: that would be terrible at the tail end
[15:22] <cjwatson> oh, you want just *one* person per developer? that will be crap
[15:22] <jono> sabdfl, what do you mean?
[15:22] <mdz> jono: yes, we're trying to elect 5 people
[15:22] <mdz> not just one
[15:22]  * Keybuk thought we each voted for 5 people
[15:22] <Keybuk> and thus the people/person who appeared in the least number of votes groups-of-5 would lose
[15:22] <sabdfl> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
[15:22] <mdz> Keybuk: yes, that's more what I was thinking
[15:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
[15:22] <jono> so the person with the lowest votes doenst get elected
[15:23] <cjwatson> IOW the person whom most people don't select. That seems OK as long as each developer has five votes each
[15:23] <mdz> jono: that would mean that each dev could only express an opinion about one candidate
[15:23] <cjwatson> ooh, civs looks good
[15:23] <jono> oh I see what you mean
[15:23] <ScottK> civs is ideal for this kind of stuff
[15:23]  * ScottK has used it in other projects.
[15:24] <sabdfl> can we vote on that?
[15:24] <mdz> civs looks good to me
[15:24] <cjwatson> I wouldn't have wanted us to implement condorcet in a rush, but given an existing implementation it would be great
[15:24] <Keybuk> I approve of civs
[15:24] <cjwatson> [VOTE] use http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html for TB election
[15:24] <MootBot> Please vote on:  use http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html for TB election.
[15:24] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:24] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:24] <Keybuk> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:24] <sabdfl> it's described as not being super secure but i think it's fine for this purpose
[15:24] <sabdfl> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:24] <cjwatson> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:25] <mdz> +1
[15:25] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:25] <cjwatson> mm, it's "not super secure" as in "we have done a detailed security analysis and found the following holes" which is much better than any ad-hoc thing we might do
[15:25] <Keybuk> ftr, we have 7 nominates for 5 seats
[15:25] <sabdfl> yes, i think it's fine
[15:25] <cjwatson> Keybuk: ah ok
[15:25] <cjwatson> #endvote
[15:25] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:25] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[15:25] <cjwatson> %!"£$ENDVOTE$£"!%
[15:26] <Keybuk> /exec -o figlet [ENDVOTE]
[15:26] <cjwatson> ok, neeeext
[15:26] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Ubuntu security policies
[15:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu security policies
[15:26] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies
[15:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies
[15:27] <mdz> kees showed this to me last week
[15:27] <mdz> but I don't think he could make this meeting
[15:27] <mdz> jdstrand: are you here?
[15:27] <cjwatson> I just read this through and everything other than the executable-file stuff being discussed by mail seems fairly non-controversial, basically a codification of what we're already doing
[15:27] <Keybuk> I've been talking with Kees and Marc via e-mail about the draft policy for the execute bit, which I feel is not as fully thought through as it should be
[15:27] <Keybuk> the non-draft bits all look fine to me
[15:27] <jdstrand> I am here
[15:27] <cjwatson> I liked the thing you said at the end about the point being to stop MIME handlers subverting the execute bit
[15:27] <mdz> basically, he wanted to document Ubuntu security policies which were not documented yet, and get that blessed by the TB
[15:27] <mdz> and also to propose some new stuff
[15:28]  * jdstrand reads backscroll
[15:28] <mdz> i.e. the execute permission bit
[15:28] <Keybuk> I remember we codified a security policy about mDNS, and which services were allowed to be published by default, etc. but I don't see that there
[15:28] <mdz> jdstrand: just starting from <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu security policies
[15:28] <cjwatson> can we vote on the non-draft bits and get that out of the way?
[15:28] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfPolicySpec
[15:28] <mdz> Keybuk: ^^
[15:29] <cjwatson> any objections to a simple up/down on whether they're ok in bulk?
[15:29] <Keybuk> mdz: that's the one, that should be linked from there too
[15:29] <mdz> Keybuk: agreed
[15:29] <Keybuk> cjwatson: don't see why not
[15:29] <mdz> has anyone not read the document yet?
[15:29] <mdz> I probably should have emailed it out in advance, but at least it's short
[15:29] <cjwatson> Kees e-mailed it
[15:29] <cjwatson> well, the URL
[15:29] <mdz> oh, good
[15:30] <cjwatson> [VOTE] Approve non-draft portions of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies
[15:30] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Approve non-draft portions of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies.
[15:30] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:30] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:30] <mdz> +1
[15:30] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:30] <sabdfl> +1
[15:30] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:31] <mdz> just for the record, this is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies?action=show we're voting on
[15:31] <cjwatson> +1 (we might want to add to the mdns bits, but what's there is an OK start)
[15:31] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:31] <mdz> er, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies?action=recall&rev=15
[15:31] <mdz> Keybuk: vote?
[15:31] <Keybuk> +1
[15:31] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:31] <Keybuk> err
[15:32] <Keybuk> I just managed to do /+1 ... bloody irssi
[15:32] <mdz> cjwatson: the mdns bits are an earlier TB decision, so I think we can grandfather it in
[15:32] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:32] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[15:32] <cjwatson> mdz: oh, before my time
[15:32] <Keybuk> mdz: agree
[15:32] <mdz> someone will need to dig up the reference
[15:32] <Keybuk> I'd like an [ACTION] for somebody to add that to the document though, jdstrand perhaps as the person whose here? :p
[15:32] <cjwatson> ok, so shall we continue the execute bit discussion by mail rather than here? it seems rather in-depth
[15:33] <mdeslaur> I'm here also, btw
[15:33] <cjwatson> [ACTION] jdstrand to add zeroconf reference from previous TB decision to security policies document
[15:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to add zeroconf reference from previous TB decision to security policies document
[15:33] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I can add it
[15:34] <jdstrand> well, I see I was already assigned it... :)
[15:34] <mdz> I'm told that the contentious bit (no pun intended) of the execute permission policy is WINE
[15:34] <cjwatson> you can delegate if you like, I just don't like assigning multiple people :)
[15:34] <mdeslaur> mdz: wine and java
[15:34] <cjwatson> mdz: and desktop files ...
[15:34] <Keybuk> WINE and Java need the execute bit anyway when using the binfmt support
[15:34] <mdz> cjwatson: who has an issue with .desktop files?
[15:35] <Keybuk> the only reason they might not is if somebody's mucking around with MIME handlers and subverting the need for the +x
[15:35] <Keybuk> mdz: desktop files are text files
[15:35] <mdeslaur> Keybuk: that is currently the case
[15:35] <Keybuk> if you make them executable, then doing ./foo.desktop will mean it's parsed by the shell
[15:35] <mdz> Keybuk: then don't do that :-P
[15:35] <Keybuk> a file manager or app that doesn't know *.desktop files are special will then start executing them *as shell scripts*
[15:35] <sabdfl> on the TB election, any objections to running the vote from August 17-31st?
[15:35] <Keybuk> (which they're clearly not)
[15:36] <Keybuk> and the desktop file format doesn't permit a leading #! line
[15:36] <cjwatson> Keybuk: (actually, that is overridable by binfmt_misc; whether that's a good idea is a different question)
[15:36] <Keybuk> and even if it did, then there wouldn't be a generic way of handling them desktop-agnostically
[15:36] <Keybuk> fundamentally this is abusing the +x bit ;-)
[15:36] <Keybuk> also if you drag a *.desktop file out of Evolution and onto the Panel, that will make a Panel launcher for it
[15:37] <Keybuk> it's not clear whether that requires +x
[15:37] <mdeslaur> Keybuk: it doesn't :(
[15:37] <cjwatson> sabdfl: ok by me
[15:37] <Keybuk> (ie. the security or not of your system depends on your aim, and/or understanding of the difference between the panel and desktop)
[15:37] <mdz> sabdfl: fine with me
[15:37] <mdz> I agree with cjwatson that we should probably take this to email, we don't have time to cover it in depth here
[15:37] <Keybuk> and it's then, on top of that, not clear what the UI of a non-+x launcher on the panel would be, and how you'd make it executable
[15:37] <Keybuk> mdz: there's already a thread ;-)
[15:38] <mdz> Keybuk: which I haven't read yet, because I was on holiday yesterday
[15:38] <Keybuk> mdz: pah ;) I managed to _cause_ the thread while being on holiday <g>
[15:38] <cjwatson> this is a discussion that's been going on literally for years anyway; I'm pretty sure I remember it coming up in 2005
[15:39] <cjwatson> so indeed I doubt we're going to solve it right here right now; let's continue at more leisure
[15:39] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Handling community problems
[15:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  Handling community problems
[15:39] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingCommunityProblems
[15:39] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingCommunityProblems
[15:40] <cjwatson> this I regret to say I've only skimmed, but it seems basically reasonable. jono, do you want us to have a regular check on issues filed there (presumably we'll get them by mail anyway)?
[15:40] <jono> cjwatson, I would prefer if the TB had a process to regularly check in with the assigned bugs list
[15:40] <jono> much of this could be performed over email I assume
[15:40] <jono> and then issues that require discussion could be moved to meetings
[15:41] <mdz> my only comment, which I passed on to Jono already, is that we'll want to route more issues directly to delegate councils beyond the TB and CC as time goes on
[15:41] <cjwatson> so let's add a link to the standing agenda, if it's empty it'll only take 15 seconds
[15:41] <jono> mdz, yes indeed
[15:41] <mdz> but I think it is reasonable to start with TB/CC/community team
[15:41] <jono> I wanted to trial this with the CC and TB initially and then move to team councils
[15:41] <mdz> cjwatson: agreed
[15:41] <jono> cjwatson, sounds good
[15:41] <jono> I am planning on doing an announcement soon
[15:42] <jono> of the new process
[15:42] <cjwatson> yes, as I said the other day about something else, I don't think the TB should necessarily be the body of first resort; we should be active, but it's corrosive to foster a culture where everybody just sits back and lets the TB decide
[15:42] <jono> cjwatson, agreed
[15:42] <jono> we should only pass on issues to the TB that fall within the mandate of the TB
[15:42] <cjwatson> (which I don't think this is doing at the moment, for avoidance of doubt)
[15:43] <sladen> jono: the links should probably go to launchpad.net, not edge.
[15:43] <mdz> does anyone have an objection to Jono proceeding with this, or can we move on?
[15:43] <jono> sladen, I will fix that
[15:44] <Keybuk> no objection
[15:44] <cjwatson> no objection
[15:44] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Investigate alternative to Google CSE (305905, 402767)
[15:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Investigate alternative to Google CSE (305905, 402767)
[15:45] <cjwatson> sladen requested that we look at this by mail, but nobody has yet taken it up
[15:45] <Keybuk> what's Google CSE?
[15:45] <mdz> Keybuk: custom search
[15:45] <Keybuk> oh, didn't that just get dropped anyway?
[15:45] <jono> thanks all
[15:45] <Keybuk> I saw a -changes mail fly past
[15:45] <cjwatson> I believe he's referring primarily to the multisearch widget in firefox
[15:46] <mdz> Keybuk: the time-limited "experiment" was completed, but we still need to decide and implement the final experience for 9.10
[15:46] <Keybuk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/karmic-changes/2009-August/006000.html
[15:46] <sladen> Keybuk: default browser page is  http://start.ubuntu.com/9.10/  which points to a Google CSE results, which isn't translated and doesn't have most of the additional features people associate with Google
[15:46] <Keybuk> it doesn't look like the Ubuntu Desktop team are wedded to this implementation, and it looks like they're aware of the issues
[15:47] <Keybuk> I don't think the TB need to intervene just yet
[15:47] <mdz> sladen:  the desktop team is aware of the issues with it and is responsible for making sure the experience is good
[15:47] <Keybuk> we should trust them to make the right calls, based on the feedback their "experiment" has given them
[15:47] <cjwatson> sladen: have you spoken directly (pref. not via a bug) with the desktop team about this yet?
[15:49] <sladen> cjwatson: regarding 402767, very much so.  Not sure 305905 is a desktop issue though, it's something that requires high-level Google<->Canonical interaction
[15:49] <mdz> (point of order: 10 minutes left)
[15:50] <cjwatson> I'm not in a position to know what's going on there at the moment, but when I was managing Alexander this was something I would have been involved in, so I'd be surprised if Rick Spencer weren't an appropriate contact for lots of this
[15:50] <sabdfl> there was a discussion in each of the past two UDS's about search options, I expect there will be another discussion in November
[15:50] <Keybuk> sladen: having spoken with the team, what made you feel that the TB needed to step in to resolve the issue?
[15:50] <sabdfl> sladen: if you have new information for that, or suggestions, please contribute them
[15:50] <mdz> sladen: that one is a desktop team issue as well
[15:50] <Keybuk> it's not clear to me from the visible traffic on the ML and Bug that the desktop team haven't been taking concerns on board
[15:50] <Keybuk> indeed, my reading in the last few minutes suggests they have
[15:51] <cjwatson> I'm going to move on based on time, but we can continue this by mail as necessary
[15:51] <sabdfl> i don't think the TB should be asked to go and explore options, since the desktop team are doing that now
[15:51] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Statistics gathering policy
[15:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Statistics gathering policy
[15:51] <sladen> cjwatson: I think the next issue is the important one
[15:51] <sladen> yes, that one
[15:51] <cjwatson> is this a direct outgrowth of the multisearch issue?
[15:51] <mdz> presumably
[15:51] <cjwatson> directly inspired by anyuway
[15:52] <Keybuk> it's not clear to me who would be bound by such a policy
[15:52] <sladen> it's hopefully a check-list of what's sane (technically and socially)
[15:53] <Keybuk> for example, a mirror may be bound by the laws of their country to collect statistics about the use of that mirror
[15:53] <sladen> Keybuk: that's passive collection
[15:53] <cjwatson> I don't think it would be bad for us to document some advice to developers
[15:53] <sladen> Keybuk: the policy/review request is focused on active statistics collection when added to the Ubuntu archive
[15:53] <Keybuk> sladen: your text doesn't limit much of the policy to active collection
[15:53] <cjwatson> however, I'm not a statistician; I know enough to know I don't know :-)
[15:53] <Keybuk> this may be a mistake in the way you have drafted the text, but only 3.* would apply in the current format
[15:53] <cjwatson> do we have any statisticians in the community who could advise?
[15:54] <sladen> "I do not see a need for
[15:54] <sladen> passive systems to be covered (or even have attention drawn to)"
[15:54] <cjwatson> there is some overlap with usability testing, but it's not really the same thing; it's a much more precise art
[15:54] <Keybuk> cjwatson: best way to find that out would be for sladen to post the text wider and have community input
[15:55] <cjwatson> I do know that as a developer I have no real idea of how I'd go about gathering stats in anything other than an ad-hoc way, which does seem suboptimal
[15:55] <sladen> Keybuk: okay, I can turn that draft into something more wide-ranging... I'm happy to run with it
[15:56] <sabdfl> sladen: data gathered will not always be shared
[15:56] <cjwatson> re point 1, time-based controls aren't necessarily bad ...
[15:57] <sladen> sabdfl: mmm, I think the sharing of results is something that gains buy-in  (people willinging opting in)
[15:58] <sladen> sabdfl: but I'd like to speak to you in more detail about that if I try and turn the draft/sugegstion into someting better
[15:58] <sabdfl> sladen: agreed, nonetheless, i won't support a proposal that effectively binds Canonical to publish all of its data
[15:58] <cjwatson> I don't think sladen's proposal as mailed does that, FWIW
[15:59] <sladen> (I didn't think it did either)
[15:59] <cjwatson> it indicates that the findings should be published, but I assume that in most cases we'd be acting on the findings anyway ...
[15:59] <cjwatson> and certainly findings != all data
[15:59] <cjwatson> anyway, we're up against the wall
[16:00] <cjwatson> sladen: thanks for bringing this up, I'd like to see it get attention from statisticians
[16:00] <cjwatson> the base-2 discussion is proceeding by mail and looks to be a healthy thread (and IIRC it's also something the TB has discussed in the past)
[16:00] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] chair for next meeting
[16:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  chair for next meeting
[16:00] <cjwatson> whose turn is it?
[16:01] <Keybuk> that depends on whose on the board surely?
[16:01] <mdz> I chaired the previous meeting iirc
[16:01] <cjwatson> Keybuk: the next meeting is before the vote ends
[16:01] <Keybuk> cjwatson: the vote was supposed to end and results be announced at the next meeting, no?
[16:02] <cjwatson> 15:35 <sabdfl> on the TB election, any objections to running the vote from August 17-31st?
[16:02] <cjwatson> so I think we're just going to run late
[16:02] <Keybuk> oh, I missed that
[16:02] <sabdfl> We don't need a full two weeks, I don't think
[16:02] <cjwatson> eight days is a bit short
[16:02] <Keybuk> two weeks seems a reasonable time
[16:02] <cjwatson> particularly in the northern summer holidays
[16:03] <cjwatson> so let's just stay with what sabdfl suggested and we'll just have an extra meeting with the current board
[16:03] <sabdfl> +1
[16:03] <Keybuk> mdz: Aren't you and I supposed to be somewhere the week of the next TB meeting?
[16:03] <cjwatson> so I make it Keybuk's turn ... oh
[16:04] <mdz> Keybuk: possibly, unconfirmed
[16:04] <Keybuk> let's decide the chair via e-mail
[16:04] <cjwatson> ok
[16:04] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
[16:04] <sabdfl> confirm - the election is for a two-year term?
[16:05] <Keybuk> sabdfl: that's obviously up to you - but that's my understanding ;)
[16:05] <sabdfl> i thought that's what we agreed, yes
[16:05] <cjwatson> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard says one year, and is well known for being superbly up to date ;-)
[16:05] <cjwatson> so two years is fine by me ...
[16:06]  * mathiaz waves at the ubuntu-server members
[16:06] <sabdfl> and the list of voters is final, as in ubuntu-dev as at today?
[16:06] <sabdfl> is the DMB processing applications before 17th?
[16:06]  * nealmcb waves at mathiaz
[16:06] <Keybuk> sounds reasonable
[16:06] <sabdfl> ok
[16:07] <Daviey> Server meeting?
[16:07] <nijaba> Daviey: not started yet
[16:08] <cjwatson> I think we're done
[16:08] <mathiaz> cjwatson: great - thanks.
[16:08] <mathiaz> let's get the ubuntu-server team rolling then
[16:08] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:08] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:08. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:08] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:08] <soren> o/
[16:08] <Daviey> \o
[16:08] <ttx> o/
[16:08] <zul> hi ho
[16:08] <nijaba> o/
[16:08] <mathiaz> today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:08] <ivoks> greetings from http://www.init.hr/dev/2009-08-11-164518.jpg
[16:09]  * sommer tentatively here
[16:09] <Daviey> ivoks: nice.
[16:09] <sommer> ivoks: haaa :)
[16:09] <The_Toxic_Mite> Hello
[16:09] <zul> ivoks: grumble grumble
[16:09] <soren> ivoks: Where's that?
[16:09] <mathiaz> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090804
[16:09] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Asterisk
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Asterisk
[16:09] <mathiaz> Daviey: what's the state of the stack?
[16:10] <Daviey> Okay.. i've built 1.6 in ppa
[16:10] <mathiaz> Daviey: did you come up with a list of packages to be updated?
[16:10] <mathiaz> Daviey: and which order?
[16:10] <Daviey> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-voip/+archive/asterisk-1.6-testing
[16:10] <Daviey> pwlib as shown there, and openh323
[16:10] <Daviey> without those being updated, asterisk will not get past the ./configure stage of the packaing build
[16:11] <mathiaz> Daviey: are these packages in Debian unstable?
[16:11] <Daviey> yes. although i used debian svn packaging iirc.. but yes, similar or same as unstable
[16:12] <mathiaz> Daviey: AFAICT pwlib is not part of unstable
[16:12] <soren> 1.10.10-3 is in unstable.
[16:13] <soren> and testing.. :)
[16:13] <mathiaz> ah right - my bad - I was doing an incorrect search
[16:13] <Daviey> http://packages.debian.org/sid/libpt-1.10.10
[16:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://packages.debian.org/sid/libpt-1.10.10
[16:14] <mathiaz> Daviey: 1.10.10-2ubuntu3 is in karmic
[16:14]  * ivoks has too big lag, so i can't participate in the meeting
[16:15] <mathiaz> Daviey: is 1.10.10-3 required to build asterisk 1.6?
[16:15] <Daviey> mathiaz: I'm not sure if the current binary is busted due to needing rebuilt, or if it needed upgrading.
[16:15] <Daviey> rebuild*
[16:17] <Daviey> hmm.. interesting.. http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/o/openh323/openh323_1.18.0.dfsg-9build1/changelog <-- openh323 was another issue.. and that has just been rebuilt
[16:17] <Daviey> so that is probably no longer an issue
[16:17] <mathiaz> Daviey: does that mean that all build dependency of asterisk 1.6 are there in karmic?
[16:18] <Daviey> pwlib needs either upgrading or a rebuild
[16:19] <Daviey> I'm not sure which tbh.. i think it is a merge it needs.
[16:19] <Daviey> we last merged ~23 Jun 2008
[16:19] <mathiaz> Daviey: why is the current pwlib package broken in karmic?
[16:20] <Daviey> When trying to build asterisk against it, it complains of MANY BOOL linker errors
[16:20] <Daviey> considering debian are quite active (http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/p/pwlib/pwlib_1.10.10-3/changelog), ours would seem quite stale.
[16:22] <mathiaz> Daviey: right. I'm not sure I completly understand what debian did in their last upload.
[16:23] <mathiaz> Daviey: I'm not sure that merging is the best option as it seems it may require a library transition
[16:23] <mathiaz> DaNEW Package libpt-dev -> libpt-1.10.10-dev & libpt-1.10.10-doc
[16:23] <mathiaz> It seems that the pwlib package state needs to be sorted out first
[16:24] <mathiaz> in order to be able to build asterisk correctly
[16:24] <mathiaz> Daviey: is the pwlib package from the ubuntu-voip team a straight rebuild of Debian?
[16:24] <Daviey> hmm
[16:24] <mathiaz> Daviey: or does it contain the ubuntu diff?
[16:25] <Daviey> straight build from Debian
[16:25] <mathiaz> Daviey: right - so I'd suggest to look into a merge of pwlib
[16:25] <mathiaz> Daviey: may be the ubuntu patches have been integrated in debian
[16:25] <mathiaz> Daviey: or figure out why the current version of karmic is broken and try to fix it
[16:26] <mathiaz> Daviey: contact the last ubuntu uploader and merger could be helpfull
[16:26] <Daviey> mathiaz: tbh, we (as in Ubuntu) don't do a whole lot for the Asterisk stuff.
[16:26] <mathiaz> Daviey: I'd also recommend to delete openh323 from the PPA
[16:27] <mathiaz> Daviey: to make sure it's not needed in karmic.
[16:27] <Daviey> well i'll experiment building locally, and repush a good result.
[16:27] <mathiaz> Daviey: ok.
[16:27] <mathiaz> Anything else to add on this topic?
[16:27] <Daviey> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/a/asterisk/asterisk_1.4.21.2~dfsg-3ubuntu2/changelog <-- the last *ubuntu upload was from a debian.org email address :)
[16:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/a/asterisk/asterisk_1.4.21.2~dfsg-3ubuntu2/changelog <-- the last *ubuntu upload was from a debian.org email address :)
[16:28] <Daviey> Hmm
[16:28] <Daviey> i was hoping the other chap would have been online..
[16:28] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on
[16:28] <Daviey> ok
[16:28] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server tips : implementation
[16:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server tips : implementation
[16:28]  * Daviey needs a rest :)
[16:28] <mathiaz> any report on the packaging effort?
[16:28] <Daviey> yep
[16:28] <Daviey> I've made a basic package, and put it in a PPA
[16:29] <nijaba> \o/
[16:29] <Daviey> I've created a LP project, and a LP Team
[16:29] <mathiaz> Daviey: links?
[16:29] <Daviey> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-tips
[16:29] <Daviey> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-server-tips
[16:29] <nijaba> Thanks Daviey
[16:29] <Daviey> Currently i am the owner, although i am aware it's not my project really.. and i am happy to hand over ownership to whoever wants it.
[16:29] <Daviey> or rather, the server teamw ants
[16:30] <Daviey> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-tips/+archive/ppa <-- basic package
[16:30] <Daviey> and the source is in bzr
[16:30] <Daviey> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-tips/ubuntu-server-tips/fortunes-ubuntu-server-tips
[16:30] <mathiaz> Daviey: great.
[16:30] <mathiaz> What's the next step then?
[16:31] <Daviey> I need to introduce translations.. and i am happy that won't be too much of an issue
[16:31] <nijaba> mathiaz: test and upload?
[16:31] <mathiaz> To get a new package in the archive: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
[16:31] <Daviey> fortune doesn't have native support for other languages.. however, it won't be a major issue.. we just request it in a slightl;y different way
[16:31] <nijaba> Daviey: you can count on me for testing.  I've just sent a request to join the team so that I'll get email from the ml
[16:32] <Daviey> I was thinking of including a shell script to get a locale fortune, with the package.. comments?
[16:32] <Daviey> nijaba: it's your pet project, do you want to be the team owner?
[16:32] <nijaba> Daviey: I don't care, but if you feel more confortable that way, go ahead
[16:33] <Daviey> i'm easy :)  either way.. I just don't want to tred on your toes.
[16:33] <mathiaz> Daviey: there were some discussions about integrating with update-motd
[16:33] <nijaba> Daviey: not even close to my toes :P
[16:33] <mathiaz> it seems that more testing from the PPA can be done at this stage.
[16:33] <mathiaz> anything else to add on this topic?
[16:33] <Daviey> mathiaz: yeah.. so should my package ship the script to return a locale correct (or default to english if no translation), or should that be seperate?
[16:34] <mathiaz> Daviey: I don't know for now. It may be better to ask the question on the ubuntu-server@ ml outlining what the issue is.
[16:34] <Daviey> As in.. should that script incluide the update-motd magic?
[16:34] <mathiaz> let's move on as we have other things to talk about
[16:34] <Daviey> wilco
[16:35] <mathiaz> anything related to last week minutes?
[16:35] <mathiaz> nope - let's move on.
[16:35] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update Ebox to 1.3
[16:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Update Ebox to 1.3
[16:35] <mathiaz> zul: ^^?
[16:36] <zul> so javier sent a launchpad request to update ebox to version 1.3 and i thought it would be a good idea since we tell people to use ebox for a server gui
[16:36] <zul> and the version we had in jaunty was quite old
[16:37] <zul> i hope javier would be here to explain it more but I dont think he is
[16:37] <davmor2> zul: 0.12
[16:37] <zul> yes its old
[16:37] <Daviey> old, but still working.. or old as in busted?
[16:37] <soren> He's on his way.
[16:37] <zul> old as in not shiney
[16:37] <foolano> hi guys
[16:38] <soren> o/
[16:38] <soren> :)
[16:38] <foolano> yeah, i filed the bugs to request an upgrade.
[16:38] <davmor2> I've had a quick play with the 1.2 version from the site and it has loadsa features that are missing from the ubuntu repo version
[16:38] <foolano> i'll request sponsorship during this week
[16:38] <foolano> i've the packages ready i just need to polish a few things
[16:39]  * nealmcb waves at foolano
[16:39] <zul> foolano: ill volunteer to upload them for you
[16:40] <foolano> zul: great :)
[16:40] <Daviey> \o/
[16:40] <foolano> they'll be ready during this week for sure
[16:40] <zul> sure just ping me when they are ready for review
[16:40] <foolano> zul: and i expect not to nag you very often afterwards ;)
[16:40] <zul> \o/
[16:41] <foolano> i'll follow the usual sponsorship process, and i'll ping you when it's ready :)
[16:41] <mathiaz> [ACTION] foolano to prepare new ebox packages for review
[16:41] <MootBot> ACTION received:  foolano to prepare new ebox packages for review
[16:41] <mathiaz> great - anything else on this topic?
[16:42] <foolano> just one more thing
[16:42] <foolano> i can email the ubuntu-server list to tell you guys the new modules we have developed, and see if there is some interest to upload some of them
[16:42] <mathiaz> foolano: seems like a good plan
[16:43] <foolano> great :)
[16:44] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU weekly review
[16:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU weekly review
[16:44] <Daviey> mathiaz: Did you get the method of getting a http list of SRU packages related top -server?
[16:45] <Daviey> s/top/to/
[16:45] <mathiaz> there is a new section in the Knowledge base about the SRU process.
[16:45] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20resources
[16:45] <mathiaz> and here is the list of bugs that have been fixed release last week:
[16:45] <mathiaz> http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/multi-package-bug-reports-fix-released.ubuntu-server.2009-08-10.html
[16:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/multi-package-bug-reports-fix-released.ubuntu-server.2009-08-10.html
[16:45] <mathiaz> ttx: ^^
[16:46]  * Daviey pleased.
[16:46]  * ttx looks
[16:46] <mathiaz> ttx: let's go throught the list
[16:47] <mathiaz> and nominate relevant ones
[16:47] <ttx> sure.
[16:47]  * zul raises his hand for vblade
[16:47] <mathiaz> bug 407324
[16:48] <mathiaz> ^^ seems like a good candidate for SRU
[16:48] <ttx> mathiaz: maybe we should filter out wishlist items ?
[16:48] <mathiaz> if it can verified for hardy
[16:49] <mathiaz> ttx: if you click on importance it will be sorted
[16:49] <mathiaz> ttx: by importance
[16:49] <ttx> makes sense :)
[16:49] <mathiaz> ttx: bug 385475?
[16:49] <ttx> not, this is karmic-only
[16:50] <ttx> regression due to krb-1.7 different gssapi
[16:50] <mathiaz> ttx: ok
[16:50] <mathiaz> bug 223440
[16:50] <mathiaz> bug 223387
[16:50] <mathiaz> ^^ these two seem SRU worthy
[16:50] <mathiaz> zul: ^^?
[16:51] <Daviey> Thanks for taking care of them zul
[16:51] <mathiaz> Daviey: to be clear - this process is just to accept bugs
[16:51]  * ttx realizes we should have a look at the list *before* the meeting
[16:52] <mathiaz> Daviey: it doesn't mean that they will be fixed
[16:52] <ttx> and propose our favorites during the meeting
[16:52] <Daviey> oh sure.
[16:52] <mathiaz> Daviey: there is still a lot of work that needs to be done
[16:52] <mathiaz> Daviey: and anyone can participate
[16:52] <mathiaz> We're just going through the list of fixed released bug from last week to make sure relevant are considered for SRU
[16:53] <mathiaz> it doesn't mean that they will end up as an SRU
[16:53] <ttx> yes, the vblade stuff seems a good candidate
[16:53] <ttx> as is the freeradius stop one
[16:54] <mathiaz> so it seems that bug 223440, bug 223387, bug 407324 are SRU worthy
[16:54]  * ScottK waves
[16:54] <mathiaz> for which release?
[16:54] <ttx> well, I'll let zul comment on the vblade ones
[16:54] <ttx> the issue is, we need to reproduce them before nominating them, I guess
[16:54] <mathiaz> ttx: I don't think so
[16:55] <mathiaz> ttx: we just need to track them
[16:55] <nealmcb> mathiaz: I like that list and process a lot!  http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/multi-package-bug-reports-fix-released.ubuntu-server.2009-08-10.html
[16:55] <mathiaz> ttx: part of the SRU process is to be able to reproduce it
[16:55] <zul> the ones selected right should be SRUable
[16:56] <mathiaz> ttx: if it's not possible to create a good SRU report then we'll remove the bug from the accepted bugs
[16:56] <mathiaz> it seems that we still need to decide for which release they should nominated
[16:56] <ttx> then I'd do hardy for both.
[16:57] <mathiaz> ttx: both == all the three bugs?
[16:57] <ttx> yes
[16:57] <ttx> zul: the vblade bugs importance isn't set
[16:58] <mathiaz> ttx: ok - I'll nominate all the three bugs for hardy
[16:58] <mathiaz> ttx: and accept them
[16:59] <ttx> so the idea is tat everyone should review the list ahead of the meeting and propose his favorites in the meeting. this is not just a game between mathiaz and me :)
[16:59] <zul> heh
[16:59] <ttx> We'll also review nominations on server packages in general, we just miss the report as of now.
[16:59] <mathiaz> ttx: right. We're missing a couple of reports/bug lists for now
[16:59] <ttx> well, zul played too.
[16:59] <nijaba> could mathiaz add the list to the server meeting announce, asking for people to review prior to the meeting?
[17:00] <ttx> nijaba: good idea
[17:00] <mathiaz> nijaba: sure - I can update the mailing list announcement
[17:00] <ttx> "SRU poker"
[17:00] <mathiaz> Right - so I've nominated the three bugs
[17:00] <mathiaz> next week I'll try to get the other list done
[17:01] <mathiaz> (the list of server bugs nominated for supported releases)
[17:01] <nijaba> ttx: I don't have a translation for "Pouilleux Masacreur (de bug)", but it is more like it :D
[17:01] <mathiaz> and also the accepted candidates list
[17:01] <mathiaz> so that we can review the state of all the SRUs
[17:02] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to create the list of server bugs nominated for supported releases
[17:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to create the list of server bugs nominated for supported releases
[17:02] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to create the accepted candidates list
[17:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to create the accepted candidates list
[17:02] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to include the bugs lists in the meeting annoucement
[17:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to include the bugs lists in the meeting annoucement
[17:03] <mathiaz> anything else on the topic of SRU mgmt?
[17:03]  * Daviey is happy.. that is all
[17:04] <mathiaz> ok - let's wrap up
[17:04] <Daviey> Before we wrap up the meeting, can i throw one more thing out there?  For ubuntu-server-tips.. we needs many more suggestions.. it's kinda sparse at the moment.
[17:04] <Daviey> sparse = boring and perhaps useless.
[17:04] <mathiaz> Daviey: right - I'd suggest to ask for more contributions on the ubuntu-server@ ml and may be a blog post
[17:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:05] <Daviey> mathiaz: wilco
[17:05] <mathiaz> same time, same place, next week?
[17:05] <ttx> worksforme
[17:05] <Daviey> !wfm | ttx
[17:05] <Daviey> :)
[17:06] <mathiaz> all right then
[17:06] <ttx> Daviey: I didn't mean it's OK for everyone, just that it's ok for me.
[17:06] <mathiaz> same time same place next week
[17:07] <mathiaz> and don't forget we're gearing up for alpha4 this thursday
[17:07] <Daviey> ttx: i know.. :)
[17:07] <mathiaz> testing is welcome
[17:07] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:07] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:07.
[17:08] <ttx> Thanks mathiaz !
[17:09] <Daviey> o/
[17:59] <bjf> **
[17:59] <bjf> ** Roll Call **
[17:59] <bjf> **
[17:59]  * manjo waves
[18:00]  * apw zones in
[18:00]  * rtg scans the crowd
[18:00]  * ogasawara waves
[18:00] <bjf> #startmeeting
[18:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
[18:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:00]  * pgraner waves
[18:01] <bjf> This week we are without smb
[18:01]  * lieb here
[18:01] <apw> cking sends his appologies
[18:01] <bjf> not sure if sconklin will be back from doctor and cking is not available
[18:01] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Action Items: (apw) Check up on drdb status in dkms package and kernel
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Items: (apw) Check up on drdb status in dkms package and kernel
[18:02] <apw> thats still pending ...
[18:02] <bjf> will leave it as an open action item
[18:02] <apw> ack
[18:02] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:02]  * amitk is here
[18:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
[18:02] <ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (3 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:02] <ogasawara> RC Milestoned Bugs Alpha 4 (0 bugs) - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.milestone=12712
[18:02] <ogasawara> Release Targeted Bugs (8 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/linux
[18:02] <ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/karmic-alpha-4
[18:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Milestoned Features
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Milestoned Features
[18:03] <bjf> already handled
[18:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-hwdb-workshop (ogasawara)
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-hwdb-workshop (ogasawara)
[18:03] <ogasawara> bjf: not much new.  hwdb profiles profiles currently contain both hw data and test results.  This information will now be separated.
[18:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-kms (apw)
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-kms (apw)
[18:04] <apw> KMS on intel is still getting quite a lot of updates, a lot as a result of testing by the X team, looking pretty good still.  KMS on ATI Radeon is improving, we now have a PPA with a KMS kernel and c-o-d mesa to support it, testing is ongoing.  Noveau is not planned for Karmic but we continue to offer updated kernels for testing, no mesa support as yet.
[18:04] <apw> ..
[18:05] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
[18:05] <rtg> I'm getting close to starting to think about LTS backports again. No real progress since the last meeting
[18:05] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-review-of-non-upstreamed-code (smb)
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-review-of-non-upstreamed-code (smb)
[18:05] <rtg> I have, however, had siome encouragement from the highest levels
[18:05] <manjo> bjf, smb is on vaction
[18:05]  * apw has an update
[18:05] <bjf> will wait for smb to get back
[18:05] <apw> This was re-reviewed at sprint and is now mostly complete.  We are going to drop the Thinkpad modules as they are of dubious provenance.  We are dropping appleir as that is now upstream.  Much of the remaining noise is disabled packages and those will be removed at beta as they are not needed.
[18:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-android (coolony)
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-android (coolony)
[18:06] <bjf> I know brian has been doing a little work here
[18:06]  * rtg wonders if android is relevant anymore?
[18:06] <manjo> bjf, coolony is on vaction
[18:06] <bjf> I'm not sure of the overall progress
[18:06] <bjf> manjo, thanks
[18:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers (smb)
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers (smb)
[18:07] <bjf> more smb
[18:07] <pgraner> Anything that is not made progress by feature freeze drops out
[18:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-suspend-resume (manjo)
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-suspend-resume (manjo)
[18:07] <pgraner> bjf: I thought this one was closed
[18:07] <manjo> We did a HW compatibility test with live USB keys in dublin platform sprint, fou
[18:07] <manjo> nd 18 suspend resume isses. Many of them attributed to bluetooth and some to bad
[18:07] <manjo>  bios. cking as good debug notes on how to debug suspend resume issues.
[18:07] <manjo> suspend resume logs will be auto-rotated like other logs, and apport will report
[18:07] <manjo>  bugs based on frequency of failure (TBD).
[18:07] <manjo> Suspend resume will be tested again at the atlanta linux fest, working on produc
[18:07] <rtg> lieb is doing some staging work (last I heard)
[18:07] <manjo> ing updated USB keys for ALF.
[18:08] <pgraner> manjo: who has the action for log rotation and the like?
[18:08] <bjf> [ACTION] bjf to look to verify " kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers " is closed and remove it from future agenda
[18:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf to look to verify " kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers " is closed and remove it from future agenda
[18:08] <lieb> yes I am on the vt665x drivers
[18:08] <manjo> pgraner, I talked to cjwatson... and opened a bug
[18:08] <pgraner> manjo: cool thx
[18:09] <pgraner> bjf: the staging stuff we can drop off this meeting going fwd... any objections?
[18:09] <bjf> pgraner, ack
[18:09] <apw> nope
[18:09]  * rtg is tired of seeing the staging egenda item
[18:09] <pgraner> bjf: make is so
[18:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-wifi (rtg)
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-wifi (rtg)
[18:09]  * pgraner is tired of seeing this one ;-)
[18:10] <rtg> the last remaining rfkill fix is upstream, should help acpi-support to close their bugs
[18:10] <manjo> pgraner, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rsyslog/+bug/410352
[18:10] <rtg> lets take wifi off the agenda also
[18:10]  * pgraner nods
[18:10] <bjf> rtg, ack
[18:10] <bjf> [ACTION] bjf, remove kernel-karmic-wifi from agenda
[18:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf, remove kernel-karmic-wifi from agenda
[18:11] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt (amitk)
[18:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt (amitk)
[18:11] <amitk> No-op for this one. I won't have bandwidth to work on this for this cycle it seems.
[18:11] <rtg> another topic to drop from the agenda
[18:11] <pgraner> bjf: drop it
[18:12] <bjf> [ACTION] bjf, drop "kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt" from agenda
[18:12] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf, drop "kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt" from agenda
[18:12] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: AppArmor (jjohansen)
[18:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: AppArmor (jjohansen)
[18:12] <bjf> jj, ??
[18:12] <jjohansen> There are a few bugs, that were raised by the security team last week
[18:12] <jjohansen> otherwise it is looking good
[18:13] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
[18:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
[18:13] <bjf> I'm working through Marvell build isses.
[18:13] <bjf> issues even
[18:13]  * rtg uploaded Freescale yesterday
[18:13] <amitk> freescale kernel is now in the archive.
[18:14] <amitk> rtg worked through the last of the packaging issues.
[18:14] <bjf> Marvell has made further updates to their tree which I will get to after resolving the build issues
[18:14] <amitk> I am working on fixing USB and ethernet (fec) bugs for Karmic now
[18:14] <bjf> I've sent email to Marvell about the problems building, but am not waiting for them to fix
[18:15] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Union Mount Solution (apw)
[18:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Union Mount Solution (apw)
[18:15] <bjf> should this stay on the agenda?
[18:15] <apw> Seems to be holding up under testing so far.  No updates.
[18:15] <apw> I am thinking its business as usual with it now
[18:15] <pgraner> bjf: remove
[18:15] <rtg> we've pretty well settled on AUFS, so union mounts are moot.
[18:15] <apw> ACK
[18:15] <cjwatson> pgraner: (I don't really have the action for rsyslog at the moment - no bandwidth just now - but I targeted the bug for karmic so that it's not forgotten)
[18:15] <cjwatson> err, for logrotate
[18:16] <pgraner> cjwatson: thanks for the update
[18:16] <bjf> [ACTION] bjf, remove "union mount solution" from agenda
[18:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf, remove "union mount solution" from agenda
[18:16] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Karmic (rtg, apw)
[18:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Karmic (rtg, apw)
[18:16] <amitk> bjf: If you could push the current state of your local tree to kernel.u.c, I can try to help with marvell compilation issues
[18:16] <bjf> amitk, ack
[18:17] <apw> we are rebased to -rc5 and expecting a new rc shortly ...
[18:17] <rtg> bjf, no serious issues for Karmic. A4 looks to be on track.
[18:17] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Netbook (sconklin, apw)
[18:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Netbook (sconklin, apw)
[18:18] <apw> we have released a kernel update for jaunty, and also have changed some process
[18:18] <apw> all progressing well.
[18:18] <rtg> apw, what are the issues for the netbook branch in Jaunty LBM ?
[18:18] <rtg> (if any)
[18:18] <apw> nothing i am aware of currently...
[18:19] <apw> i don't think we have a full netbook test implementation as yet, so those are yet to come
[18:19] <rtg> apw, seems like the OEM team wants to use LBM on one of their platforms.
[18:19] <apw> ok will check up on it
[18:20] <rtg> apw, I think we'll have to crack a branch for that
[18:20] <apw> yeah best to have a branch empty or not if they need it
[18:20] <rtg> for ABI sync and all of that noise
[18:21] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:21] <ogasawara> 7 regression bugs were reported.  1 is currently invalid.  apw and I have reviewed the rest to isolate the cause of each regression.
[18:21] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:21] <ogasawara> We skipped the last bug day so there's nothing to report.  The next bug day will be Tues Aug 18.
[18:22] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:22] <bjf> 1
[18:22] <bjf> 2
[18:22] <bjf> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair: Colin King
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair: Colin King
[18:22] <bjf> #endmeeting
[18:22] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:22.
[18:23] <manjo> thanks bjf
[18:23] <lieb> bye
[18:23] <apw> bjf thanks
[18:23] <lieb> here here
[18:59] <Riddell> good evening friends
[18:59]  * ScottK waves
[18:59] <Riddell> kubuntu meeting time?
[19:00] <ScottK> Yep
[19:00] <maco> holas
[19:00] <Riddell> apachelogger, rgreening, seele, Nightrose   council ping
[19:00] <seele> Riddell: pong
[19:01] <yuriy_work> hi all
[19:01] <ryanakca> Hi
[19:01]  * Nightrose waves
[19:02] <Riddell> bit of an agenda here https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[19:02] <Riddell> anyone here for membership?
[19:02] <Riddell> let's crack on then
[19:02] <Riddell> "Review/Approved Kubuntu Netbook plan"
[19:02] <Riddell> ScottK: you item
[19:03] <ScottK> It's mostly in place now
[19:03] <ScottK> The idea is to have the kde4libs/kdebase/kdeplasma-addons patching done by FF.
[19:03] <ScottK> Plasma-netbook itself will stay in heavy development probably until beta
[19:04] <Riddell> I added plasma-netbook to the seed as you noticed, hope that's ok, but it is the main feature so I think it's important to get testing in
[19:04] <ScottK> I want to make sure the KC and everyone is cool with htaqt
[19:04] <ScottK> that even
[19:04] <ScottK> Riddell: I also did the kubunt-meta upload so it should be on tomorrow's ISO
[19:04] <Riddell> dunno what happened to my upload of that
[19:04] <Riddell> I'll make some ISOs tonight for early testing probably
[19:05] <ScottK> People who want a traditional plasma, but the enhanced smallness for a netbook can do a regular desktop install and then install k-n-d-s
[19:05] <ScottK> Questions?
[19:05] <Riddell> it would be nice to have a GUI way to chose which plasma shell to start
[19:05] <Nightrose> ScottK: how much space is currently required for the netbook remix? i currently (again) can't upgrade my install because the 4 gig hard disk is maxed - are small hard disk taken into account currently?
[19:05] <Riddell> although that's not very important, the main way to chose would be by install media
[19:05] <seele> ScottK: you might want to consider changing some other defaults, such as removing status bars from some applications and maybe reverting to icon only toolbars
[19:05] <seele> so things fit better
[19:06] <ScottK> Nightrose: It should be ~ the same as desktop for disk space.
[19:06] <ScottK> plasma-netbook is lighter though and runs noticeably faster on netbooks
[19:06]  * ScottK is using it rightnow
[19:06] <Nightrose> ok - any plans to drop a few dependencies?
[19:06] <ScottK> seele: Agreed.
[19:07] <ScottK> We dropped the ones that obviously didn't make sense
[19:07]  * Riddell would be happy to drop openoffice
[19:07]  * ScottK is open to suggestions
[19:07] <apachelogger> +1 on dropping ooo :P
[19:07] <ScottK> Riddell: We kind of need that I think
[19:07] <apachelogger> ScottK: did you remove ksystemlog yet?
[19:07] <ScottK> apachelogger: I don't think so
[19:08] <ScottK> apachelogger: No.
[19:08] <ScottK> It should go.
[19:08] <Riddell> I tried to factor out the seeds into a common one but failed, I'll probably look at that again sometime since colin said it worked for him
[19:08] <ScottK> +1 on common seeds
[19:08] <apachelogger> +1
[19:08] <ScottK> Especially if I don't have to do it.
[19:09] <ScottK> KNE should be a chance for upstream to showcase the power of plasma on netbooks.  We are dependent on them delivering a more complete plasma-netbook.
[19:09] <ScottK> Any other questions?
[19:09] <apachelogger> and usable
[19:09] <ScottK> Yes
[19:10] <Riddell> we should discuss the OO question sometime (but not today I think)
[19:10] <apachelogger> Riddell: well, we have no replacement, do we?
[19:10] <ScottK> OK
[19:10] <ScottK> kate ftw
[19:10] <ScottK> apachelogger: No.  We don't.
[19:10] <Riddell> no sign of andreas-wenning on "Status on Qt 4.5.2 and KDE 4.3.0 in jaunty-backports"
[19:10] <Riddell> ScottK: know anything about that?
[19:11] <ScottK> Riddell: I'm a little nervous about a Qt backport.  I think we need to test outside a KDE environment
[19:11]  * ScottK recalls that not going well before.
[19:11] <seele> (brb 3 minutes, switching laundry)\
[19:11] <Riddell> Qt backport is not ideal, although it seems to be what's expected of us by upstream (it includes a load of security fixes)
[19:11] <ScottK> well a backport doesn't help on security.
[19:12] <maco> i thought since netbooks are mainly online-service terminals, Google Apps or Writely would be what people used...
[19:12] <Nightrose> -1 maco
[19:12] <Nightrose> (at least I do)
[19:12] <apachelogger> maco: that doesn't mean that they will not be off from time to time
[19:12] <Nightrose> eh
[19:12] <Nightrose> +1
[19:12] <ScottK> maco: One differentiation between us and Google is that while we want to support that, we don't want to support only that.
[19:13] <maco> ok
[19:13] <ScottK> The smallest netbook HD I've seen recently is 8GB ssd.  I'm not particularly focused on installed size.
[19:13]  * Nightrose has 4 gb :(
[19:13] <ScottK> 4GB is tight
[19:14] <Nightrose> it is very tight
[19:14] <apachelogger> good thing we got LZMA :P
[19:14] <Nightrose> which is why i was hpoing for the netbook remix to be lighter
[19:14]  * ScottK did install and run in a 4gb partition for testing.
[19:14] <apachelogger> Nightrose: I don't see how we could make it much lighter
[19:14] <ScottK> Nightrose: OK.  Let's take the discussion out of the meeting and talk about what can go.
[19:15] <Nightrose> ok
[19:15]  * ScottK grumbles about mysql on a netbook.
[19:15] <Riddell> then the big topic is "Default apps: web browser"
[19:15] <Nightrose> apachelogger: well i could get rid of all of kontact for example
[19:15] <Nightrose> don't use it on the netbook
[19:15] <Nightrose> same for ooo
[19:15] <Nightrose> but yea - later
[19:15] <ScottK> Riddell: My suggestion is don't decide yet.
[19:16] <ScottK> Arora is better behaved recently.
[19:16] <Riddell> ScottK: will things change in the future to let us make a better decision?
[19:16] <Nightrose> my suggestion: stick with konqueror if we will go back for karmik+1
[19:16] <ScottK> Are we expecting any new arora releases?
[19:16]  * Nightrose hates switching
[19:16] <apachelogger> +1
[19:16] <ScottK> Arora seems to be moving pretty quickly, so I think beta is the right time to decide for sure.
[19:17] <seele> so what happens when konqueror gets fixed in the next year.. will we switch again?
[19:17] <maco> does arora work with swfdec/gnash yet?
[19:17] <apachelogger> arora will never get as tight KDE integration as konqueror gets... so
[19:17] <ScottK> seele: I would say yes, but I also think the risk of that is low.
[19:17] <Riddell> seele: I think so yes since that would be the best option, but I think it's important to be able to browse useful websites in the mean time
[19:18] <seele> how large is the aurora development team? when i first heard of it, it was just one guy
[19:18] <ScottK> apachelogger: This is true, but it's primary purpose is to browse web pages.  It needs to do that.
[19:18] <apachelogger> well, I said it before, and I will repeat myself
[19:18] <apachelogger> if we want to get best browsing experience we _need_ to go with firefox
[19:18] <seele> yes
[19:18] <maco> i dont like the idea of a default browser that doesnt work with the free flash implementations
[19:19] <Nightrose> +1 on firefox
[19:19] <maco> making users choose between default and non-free?
[19:19] <ScottK> apachelogger: Well we didn't have the netbook discussion today.
[19:19] <apachelogger> I mean generally
[19:19] <apachelogger> the argument that arora renders better than konqueror is quite bogus since firefox renders better than arora for sure
[19:19] <maco> i prefer firefox too...and the theming stuff can make it match alright...
[19:19] <ScottK> FF won't fit on the CD for desktop
[19:19] <apachelogger> ScottK: we currently have half the GTK stack on the CD due to packagekit
[19:20] <apachelogger> so I am quite confident firefox will fit on it as well
[19:20] <ScottK> Well we'd need the other half
[19:20] <claydoh> I say stick with Konqueror for now, no one seems to have aproblem with installing ff on their own
[19:20] <ScottK> Although if we go that way we should add blueman too.
[19:20] <maco> apachelogger: theoretically, webkit renders better than gecko and has more pretty effects and is faster. in my usage, firefox is faster.
[19:20] <seele> can we add a link in the kmenu that says firefox and then the first time someone clicks it, it installs it?
[19:20] <maco> packagekit pulled in gtk? why?
[19:20] <apachelogger> qwebkit != webkit archive-wise
[19:20] <apachelogger> qwebkit got issues of its own AFAIK
[19:21] <maco> apachelogger: yeah thats how it seems...
[19:21] <apachelogger> seele: could do, but do we want that?
[19:21] <seele> apachelogger: save space on the netbook yet still offer an easy way to get a good browser without having to go through kpackagekit?
[19:22] <ScottK> Kind of like the non-free helpers for Kaffeine
[19:22] <maco> umm...my plasma just switched from the pretty light grey theme to a black one
[19:22] <seele> the premise of the netbook is that it is something small and light and has internet access
[19:22] <maco> without me telling it to
[19:22] <ryanakca> ScottK: Won't fit even without the recommends?
[19:22] <apachelogger> seele: well, we could squeeze firefox on teh netbook since the space constraint is not as low
[19:22] <Riddell> I really havn't found any webpages that firefox does better than arora
[19:23] <ScottK> apachelogger: What was the google thing?
[19:23] <apachelogger> google gears
[19:23] <maco> Riddell: have you checked the spreadubuntu site? ;)
[19:23] <apachelogger> kind of like a offline stoarge for websites
[19:23] <seele> what user agent does arora have configured? banking sites might be a problem if they are checking for IE, Firefox, Safari specifically
[19:23] <apachelogger> so gmail can be synced offline, which means that you still have access to the interface and mails etc.
[19:23] <maco> id call it safari
[19:24] <Riddell> seele: webkit/safari
[19:24] <yuriy_work> Riddell: neither arora nor konqueror show guitar chords placed correctly, FF does
[19:24] <seele> does it pass the acid2 test?
[19:24]  * seele doesnt remember if webkit does or not
[19:24] <apachelogger> seele: on that regard: since my bank requries JAVA and arora apparently doesn't wanna use that plugin ...
[19:24] <maco> webkit was the first o
[19:24] <maco> *to
[19:24] <ScottK> It seems clear there is no consensus.  I think the KC should decide if they are going to decide today.
[19:24] <apachelogger> webkit != qwebkit
[19:24] <maco> seele: webkit passes all acid tests. no others do
[19:24] <yuriy_work> I don't think arora really fixes anything for us compared to firefox
[19:25] <yuriy_work> it's even more of a memory hog
[19:25] <maco> apachelogger: whats better qwebkit or webkitgtk?
[19:25] <maco> yeah um arora is slow
[19:25] <apachelogger> I wouldn't know
[19:26] <apachelogger> in either case qwebkit is a snapshot of webkit source with Qt stuff
[19:26] <apachelogger> so whatever applies to webkit might or might not apply to Qt's webkit
[19:26] <Riddell> well
[19:26]  * rgreening is back.. sorry had a conf call
[19:27] <Riddell> shall we decide before beta then as ScottK suggested?
[19:27] <apachelogger> +1
[19:27] <seele> what is going to change?
[19:27] <seele> a few bugs which aren't why we want to -1 arora in the first place?
[19:28] <Riddell> hopefully stuff like a password manager which is pretty important
[19:28] <apachelogger> also +1
[19:28] <rgreening> +1
[19:28] <ScottK> We should also have KDE 4.3.1 so Konqueror should be better too
[19:28] <apachelogger> Riddell: that still is worth nothing if it is not kwallet
[19:28] <apachelogger> ...and since the xdg wallet is not yet available...
[19:28] <seele> i dont think anything theyre doing to fix konqueror is going to be out in 4.3.1
[19:28] <Riddell> apachelogger: it's planned to be the new kwallet/gnome cross desktop one
[19:28] <rgreening> Is it something we can backport?
[19:29] <seele> they arent even blogging about what they started working on because they dont want to provide any time expectations
[19:29] <apachelogger> Riddell: and that will be reliably by the time of beta?
[19:29]  * seele would like to see it for 4.4 but no one knows
[19:29] <seele> is firefox going to support the new wallet?
[19:29]  * apachelogger got funny grammar today :D
[19:29] <apachelogger> seele: unlikely, firefox is made for windows
[19:29]  * ScottK just tried to access a http auth protected web site with arora and totally failed.
[19:29] <Riddell> firefox won't look at it yet
[19:30] <seele> i wonder how hard it would be to write a plugin to support the wallet and then ship it by default
[19:30] <rgreening> any plugin api documentated to work from?
[19:30] <rgreening> if it's documented, kwallet, adblock, etc would be good to start
[19:31] <yuriy_work> are there bugs filed upstream for the problems with konqueror that make this all an issue in the first place?
[19:31] <apachelogger> arora does not support native plugins!?
[19:31] <apachelogger> only nsplugins
[19:31] <rgreening> yuk
[19:31] <rgreening> show stopper
[19:31] <apachelogger> and TBH I have only seen flash work
[19:31] <apachelogger> as mentioned earlier JAVA fails for me completely
[19:31] <rgreening> flash works sometimes in arora in my experience. About as much as in konq
[19:33] <Riddell> flash works just as well for me in arora as in any other browser (not great, no sound)
[19:33]  * apachelogger got sounds \\o/
[19:33] <yuriy_work> I would like to see a list of bugs in konq that motivate the need for another browser
[19:33] <Riddell> yuriy_work: slashdot doesn't work
[19:33] <apachelogger> yuriy_work: query bugs.kde.org
[19:33] <apachelogger> there are a lot of bugs
[19:33] <maco> free flash doesnt work!
[19:33] <maco> oinly non-free
[19:34] <apachelogger> but they might not be valid anymore
[19:34] <apachelogger> ...
[19:34] <Riddell> let's move on, we can decide at beta
[19:34]  * apachelogger would like to take a vote though :P
[19:34] <Riddell> apachelogger: a vote without deciding?
[19:34] <seele> a vote to vote later?
[19:35] <apachelogger> what seele said... I'd just like to do some vote ;-)
[19:35] <Riddell> apachelogger: err ok, propose a vote then
[19:36] <apachelogger> Switch to Arora as default browser on the desktop CD +1/-1?
[19:36] <Nightrose> -1
[19:36] <Riddell> +1
[19:36] <apachelogger> -1
[19:36] <seele> -1
[19:36] <yuriy_work> apachelogger: a lot yes, but what specifically are the blockers
[19:36] <claydoh> -1
[19:36] <rgreening> -1
[19:36] <ryanakca> -1
[19:36] <yuriy_work> -1
[19:36] <seele> 4 to 1 ouch
[19:36] <ryanakca> even though I'm not in the council ;)
[19:37] <rgreening> sorry Riddell :(
[19:37] <apachelogger> one thing less to discuss at beta time
[19:37] <Riddell> I note ScottK hasn't voted :)
[19:37] <rgreening> I've been using it default, but no adblock, no wallet are show stoppers for me.
[19:37]  * ScottK isn't on KC and doesn't have a strong opinion
[19:37] <seele> ScottK declined to run for council for a reason ;)
[19:38] <rgreening> heh
[19:38] <Riddell> so unless things change notably by beta time that seems fairly decided
[19:38] <ScottK> Now I'd have to say no, but who knows what gets fixed
[19:38] <Riddell> shall we move onto the next controvertial topic?
[19:38] <apachelogger> yes!
[19:38] <ScottK> So switch it back?
[19:38] <apachelogger> that is fun :D
[19:39] <Riddell> default IRC client anyone?
[19:39] <seele> how many of the requests have the quassel team gotten through?
[19:39] <maco> it still says Buffer
[19:39] <seele> i saw somewhere tehy were going to try an amarok patch to get rid of some of the lines?
[19:39] <ScottK> I say wait until feature freeze as they are planning on releasing 0.5 before then
[19:40] <Nightrose> +1 ScottK
[19:40] <maco> that thing that lets you watch all channels at once is the thing i think is totally-awesome about quassel
[19:40] <apachelogger> what is currently in their git master which is of interest though?
[19:40] <seele> maco: yes, but it is also an advanced feature which isn't one of our requirements or inclusion
[19:40] <ScottK> Their big styling branch just landed.
[19:40] <seele> the use case is to make it easy for users to get support
[19:40] <seele> not itch a geek bone
[19:40] <ScottK> So I expect a shift back to more basic features soon.
[19:40] <Riddell> I tend to favour Konversation, it has more features and really quite a lot of mindshare
[19:40] <maco> seele: yes ma'am
[19:41] <Riddell> but if there's a new Quassel coming we can wait and review that
[19:41]  * apachelogger agrees with Riddell at this point
[19:41] <ScottK> My view is we told them what they had to do if they wanted to stay default.  Let's see what's in 0.5 and then decide
[19:41] <maco> where is the list of demands about Quassel?
[19:41] <ScottK> It was email cc to kubuntu-devel
[19:41]  * seele coughs
[19:41] <apachelogger> maco: somewhere on kubuntu-devel I think, possibly also in the spec
[19:41] <seele> requests, not demands ;P
[19:42] <apachelogger> demands to stay default :P
[19:42] <seele> i thought they were listed on a wikipage somewhere too
[19:42]  * seele sighs
[19:42] <apachelogger> spec probably
[19:42] <seele> none of you work with clients, do you
[19:42] <apachelogger> anyway
[19:42]  * ScottK does
[19:42] <seele> deferred
[19:42] <apachelogger> seele: we are the clients though :P
[19:42] <apachelogger> so, I forgot what I wanted to say
[19:43] <Riddell> "Status and plan for system-config-printer"
[19:43]  * ScottK senses a rough consensus for waiting for 0.5 to decide
[19:43] <seele> apachelogger: i would hope that we would consider ourselves participants in the project with recommendations, not demanding clients
[19:43] <ScottK> Any objections?
[19:43] <Riddell> seele: did you add that?
[19:43] <seele> Riddell: yeah.. is shtylman here?
[19:43] <seele> no he's not.. so i guess skip that one
[19:44] <Riddell> seele: he can get crazy ideas that boy, we have to nudge him to keep him  to the usability plan :)
[19:44] <seele> Riddell: yeah, that's why i put it on the list
[19:44] <ScottK> Riddell: I say we make him a member while he's not here.
[19:44]  * seele still has yet to see the latest ubiquity, but he swears he made all of my requested changes
[19:45] <ScottK> Riddell: Added sense of responsibility will get more work done
[19:45] <apachelogger> *nod*
[19:45] <Riddell> "Review papercuts and what can get done"  seele too presumably?
[19:45] <seele> ScottK: i dont know if membership works if he doesn't even express interest in applying..
[19:45] <seele> yes
[19:45] <ScottK> seele: He did.  He was just concerned he hadn't done enough
[19:45] <ScottK> See #kubuntu-devel earlier today
[19:45] <seele> so the fixing the avatar thing in kickoff was declined by upstream
[19:46] <Riddell> seele: what was that?
[19:46] <apachelogger> huh, how so?
[19:46] <seele> Riddell: a patch jonathan thomas did to align the avatar in kickoff better
[19:46] <seele> aaron didnt like the layout or something
[19:47] <Riddell> I don't think I have an avatar in kickoff
[19:47] <seele> i thought it looked better than what we have now, and the way aaron wanted it done can't currently be done because of layout issues
[19:47] <seele> Riddell: not next to search? did you never configure one maybe?
[19:47] <apachelogger> Riddell: you'd need to set the user pic in systemsettings
[19:47] <seele> the problem is the avatar is next to search, not your name, which is silly
[19:47] <Riddell> strangely I've never felt the need to set one
[19:48] <seele> so my question was if this is something we want to maintain like our other kickoff patches
[19:48] <seele> although, aaron doesnt seem to remember our other patches so maybe we should resubmit them again
[19:48] <apachelogger> we have other patches?
[19:48] <seele> (even though they were declined more than once)
[19:48] <Riddell> if it's a good change I think we want it, we can always drop it should it become hard to maintain
[19:48] <seele> yeah, to fix alingment and visibility of issues
[19:48] <Riddell> it's still on my todo to send those to  reviewboard
[19:49] <seele> let me find the bug, he might have posted a screenshot of his fix
[19:49] <seele> bug 389744
[19:50] <seele> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/28205152/avatarlayout.png
[19:50] <seele> that is the patch
[19:50] <seele> this was before: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/28128348/avatar.png
[19:51] <apachelogger> hm
[19:51] <Riddell> I like the patched one
[19:52] <apachelogger> seele: as I see it, jonny just needs to enhance the patch a bit
[19:52] <seele> well if someone can help him with it, the RB discussion died a few weeks ago
[19:52] <maco> i like the patched one too
[19:52] <seele> maco did some good work with the Abort label papercut and i would like to see GetHotNewStuff fixed as well
[19:53] <rgreening> +1 for the patched ver
[19:53] <seele> i think maco started on it, but it would be a good junior job for someone who wants to brush up on kdedev
[19:53] <seele> if anyone wants to help with that one
[19:53] <seele> bug 390226
[19:54] <maco> im trying to figure out if working on that will make it easier to do my (C++, when i dont know C++ yet) homework or just take time away from it
[19:54] <seele> one i think we need to vote on so i can close it is the kubuntu logo thing
[19:54] <seele> bug 389658
[19:54] <seele> several people said they wanted to stick with KDE branding even though nuno didnt have a problem with it
[19:54] <seele> so we should get a final vote so i can figure out what to do with the bug
[19:55]  * rgreening thinks we need to have a paper cuts thing each cycle for Kubuntu
[19:55] <Riddell> I think we should keep the KDE logo because it highlights our position as being the premier KDE distro
[19:55]  * apachelogger wants to note that a lot of paper cuts get fixed without becoming papercuts
[19:55] <seele> rgreening: i think ubuntu is planning on doing it every release, so it would make sense for kubuntu to try and do it
[19:55] <rgreening> I like the idea of a new logo.
[19:55] <seele> my goal was 10 papercuts, not sure if we will make it
[19:55] <rgreening> coo
[19:56] <maco> seele: how many have we done?
[19:56] <seele> Riddell: mandriva users would argue against that ;)
[19:56] <seele> maco: not sure.. maybe 4 or 5 with fixed committed or making progress?
[19:56] <rgreening> THe option to change the icon is in the app launcher settings
[19:56] <Nightrose> +1 for keeping the kde logo
[19:57] <seele> i cant figure out how to see completed bugs in launchpad while staying in the kde tag for hundredpapercuts
[19:57]  * ScottK likes the KDE logo
[19:57] <Riddell> also I don't think a Kubuntu logo is any better usability wise, to non-techy users both a pretty abstract designs which don't indicate anything to do with "application menu"
[19:57] <maco> seele: advanced search. choose fix-released and type "kde" in the tags field
[19:57] <rgreening> How about having some icons the user can choose to change on thier own then?
[19:57] <seele> Riddell: right, the only thing really saving us is the familiar position in the bottom left corner
[19:58] <Riddell> http://tinyurl.com/lbxd5b
[19:58] <seele> rgreening: an alternative was to offer a way for users to change the icon, but that would require someone to be able to code that and it is bigger than a papercut
[19:58] <rgreening> seele that exists
[19:58] <rgreening> right click the kmenu
[19:58]  * apachelogger really thinks that the logo exchange is more about branding than anything else
[19:58] <rgreening> choose app launcher settings.
[19:58] <Riddell> 6 paper cuts closed
[19:58] <rgreening> and then change the icon
[19:59] <seele> rgreening: oh, in 4.3.0? i dont have that on my laptop yet
[19:59] <seele> but that's cool
[19:59] <rgreening> yeah. 4.3
[19:59] <rgreening> :)
[19:59] <seele> is the kubutnu logo provided in the icon list? we could probably just add it if it isnt there and then close it
[19:59] <apachelogger> *nod*
[19:59] <Riddell> no it's not
[20:00] <claydoh> could we change the 'kde desktop' on the top right of kickoff to 'kubuntu' instead?
[20:00] <seele> Riddell: awesome, thanks
[20:00]  * apachelogger wants to note that the plain kubuntu icon looks like crap as menu icon though
[20:00] <seele> ok, then how about someone add the kubuntu logo to the pile of icons, make sure it shows up in the icon picker, then we close that papercut?
[20:00] <Riddell> claydoh: it says "Kubuntu KDE" for me, I'd like it improved
[20:00] <rgreening> seele: +1
[20:01] <seele> who is going to volunteer to do that so i can assign you that bug? ;)
[20:01] <Riddell> now if only our artist hadn't gone on holiday for three weeks
[20:01] <maco> seele: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=FIXRELEASED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=kde&field.tags_combinator=ANY&search=Search
[20:01] <maco>         in progress, fix committed, nd fix released tagged kde
[20:01] <rgreening> if we add an icon choice, I'm ok with that
[20:01] <seele> Riddell: i think the icon is done, i just dont know where it is
[20:01] <apachelogger> Riddell: the fact that it's artist_ is quite worrying by itself
[20:01] <claydoh> Riddell: 4.3 on Jaunty here, shows 'kdedesktop' (karmic's kernel doesn't like my laptop)
[20:02] <seele> ah, that's another shtylman bug
[20:02] <Riddell> seele: I've seen it done on kde-look I'm sure
[20:02] <apachelogger> claydoh: either the branding is broken again or only on jaunty
[20:02] <seele> bug 389747
[20:02] <seele> Riddell: you said you did this or were going to?
[20:02] <apachelogger> IIRC I fixed branding for each major KDE version by now :P
[20:02] <maco> tonio had a link to it
[20:02] <Nightrose> jaunty 4.3 shows kubuntu kde here
[20:02] <Riddell> seele: I have yes, surely I closed it
[20:03] <seele> doesnt look like it
[20:03] <seele> that would make papercut #7
[20:03] <rgreening> yay
[20:03] <Riddell> closed!
[20:03] <seele> adding the kubuntu icon would make papercut #8
[20:03] <seele> i would like to see KHNS closed as #9
[20:03] <seele> which gives us one more to do to hit 10
[20:03] <maco> seele: is that supposed to be "change which widget is on panel" or "change the wording of the tooltip"?
[20:03] <apachelogger> change the widget
[20:03] <seele> maco: change the actual widget
[20:03] <seele> Riddell did it
[20:04] <maco> oh ok
[20:04] <seele> is shtylman was here, i would ask him how easy it is to add a browser to the printer config, because i think that would be a great papercut to fix
[20:05] <seele> there is also one about in consistent package numbers between apt-get and update-notifier
[20:05] <Riddell> if it's in the gnome version it's not hard
[20:05] <rgreening> On another note, do we expect 4.3.1 (or later)  to be Karmic
[20:05] <seele> but i dont know how hard that is to fix
[20:05] <Riddell> rgreening: .2  is normal
[20:05] <rgreening> ok. cool
[20:05] <claydoh> apachelogger: I guess the icon changes with the plasma theme
[20:05] <seele> Riddell: well it shouldnt be hard if you can get a konqueror browser thing in there pointed to samba shares, right?
[20:05] <apachelogger> claydoh: yep
[20:05] <seele> that's all you would need i think to see all of the network printers and select it
[20:05] <Riddell> seele: harder than copy, paste and s/g/k/ :)
[20:05] <apachelogger> claydoh: only overrides default, otherwise we would prevent theme creators of branding their themes
[20:05] <seele> hehe
[20:05] <rgreening> is tonio_ still working on that netshare patch?
[20:06] <rgreening> for samba like user shares...
[20:06] <Riddell> tonio has never started that
[20:06] <Riddell> it's not a patch, it's a re-write and it wouldn't be hard
[20:06] <seele> there are also other papercuts listed, but i dont know how hard they are.. the three i mentioned are what i think would be good to fix for karmic
[20:06] <seele> let's go for 10!
[20:06] <seele> and that's all i have to say about papercuts
[20:06] <rgreening> oh... though he indicated he was taking that on...
[20:07] <Riddell> rgreening: he said he would but he's busy with (non)work
[20:07] <apachelogger> tonio wants to work on way too many things at once :P
[20:07] <rgreening> apachelogger: I learned my lesson this cycle.
[20:07] <rgreening> I committed to usb-creator-kde.. and got it done...
[20:08] <rgreening> :)
[20:08] <Riddell> shall we move on?
[20:08] <apachelogger> it being python, must not have been easy :P
[20:08] <rgreening> lol
[20:08] <rgreening> HAL == evil
[20:08] <Riddell> "Patching Kubuntu apps for messaging indicator and other stuff"
[20:08] <apachelogger> rgreening: looking forward to hal => devicekit ? ;-)
[20:09] <apachelogger> Riddell: what needs to be patched?
[20:09] <ScottK> On the phone one moment
[20:09] <Riddell> I've not communicated this very well because me and  aurelien were in the same room but the message indicator is now on the CD and the default setup
[20:09] <rgreening> apachelogger: yep. evand has it mostly working in backend.
[20:09] <Riddell> so that's for testing and feedback
[20:09] <Riddell> it works with konversation currently
[20:09] <rgreening> Riddell: cool
[20:09] <ScottK> Back
[20:10] <Riddell> I think it's a great improvement over the  million or none popups choice I had before
[20:10] <apachelogger> Riddell: where would it be found packagewise?
[20:10] <rgreening> nice to see our discussions at UDS provided something useful for Kubuntu from ayatana :)
[20:10] <Riddell> apachelogger: plasma-widget-indicatordisplay
[20:10] <ScottK> It's actually the Koversation patches I'm concerned about.
[20:10] <rgreening> and kudos to agateau for
[20:10] <rgreening> pulling it off.
[20:10] <Riddell> it should go into KDE extragear when it's more stable
[20:11] <ScottK> My understanding of the agreement we had at UDS was that we'd provide an indicator for non-KDE apps that were designed to use it (e.g. Pidgin), but that we wouldn't get in front of our upstreams in Kubuntu on this.
[20:11] <Riddell> and of course it's not final, if everyone hates it we can remove it
[20:11] <rgreening> +1 ScottK
[20:11] <ScottK> agateau was going to come up with some kind of 'ayatana option' for people who wanted such stuff.
[20:12] <ScottK> Riddell: I think we should leave it due to Ubuntu apps that expect such a thing.  I don't think we should be patching our stuff to use it by default.
[20:12] <rgreening> we shouldn't be patching apps to support it, as it should be at the library level for KDE stuff... I would thinlk. And kdelibs is already patched to adhere to the agreed upon standard (I believe)
[20:13] <ScottK> rgreening: That's for notifications.  For this there is no standard
[20:13] <Riddell> ScottK: ayatana is the upstream for the widget, and we should treat them as any other upstream
[20:13] <Riddell> right there's no standard here (yet)
[20:13] <rgreening> oh right...
[20:13]  * rgreening keeps mixing up indicator and notification
[20:13] <Riddell> aurelien has been looking at making it part of knotify rather than apps directly
[20:13] <rgreening> lol
[20:13] <ScottK> Riddell: For the widget, that's fine.
[20:14]  * apachelogger has no clue what indications and notifications are :P
[20:14] <ScottK> I just think that the fact that many apps in the Ubuntu repo expect such a thing is one reason in favor, not a free pass.
[20:15] <ScottK> If the konversation patches are temporary so there is something to test with, I think it's fine.
[20:15]  * apachelogger doesn't get it to work
[20:15] <maco> apachelogger: when you get an IM or get highlighted on IRC you get a popup notification. if you werent lookign when it came up, you may miss it when you get back, so it goes to the indicator applet which is like the voicemail of notifications
[20:15] <rgreening> I'm inclined to agree with ScottK
[20:15] <maco> apachelogger: kinda like how the systray now has that i that turns into a number for how many notifications you missed in kde
[20:16] <apachelogger> so it is a duplication of the systray notification just implemented by canonical?
[20:16] <Riddell> ScottK: the blocker to getting it into konversation upstrema is he needs to fix the patches to make it an optional thing, once that's done it'll be sent directly there
[20:16] <maco> apachelogger: basically
[20:16] <rgreening> I'm hoping that agateau can add support to the existing KDE 'i' indicator for the Gtk/Gnpome stuff... (assuming it's possible)
[20:17] <Riddell> rgreening: yes that's done
[20:17] <rgreening> cool
[20:17] <Riddell> I blogged about it
[20:17]  * rgreening has had his head burried in work
[20:17] <apachelogger> cool, doesn't seem to work :S
[20:18] <apachelogger> oh well, this gives me a headache
[20:18] <Riddell> apachelogger: someone has to ping you while you don't have konversation in focus
[20:18] <maco> didnt someone say knotifications wre going to stop doing the wall-of-text thing and start showing one at a time instead back when we were at uds? that hasnt hapened
[20:18] <apachelogger> Riddell: just did that
[20:18] <apachelogger> no indication there
[20:19] <ScottK> maco: Yes.  That was (I thought) supposed to be in 4.3, but it didn't make it.
[20:19] <rgreening> dang
[20:20] <Riddell> ScottK: you're saying we should send patches upstream before using them ourselves, but (at least in this case) we wanted to make sure it was actually working (and we found several issues in the packaging and adding) which is usually a pre-requesit for upstream inclusion, so catch 22 because our testing method is inside the distro
[20:20] <ScottK> Riddell: If it's just for testing and upstream is open to the idea, I don't mind.
[20:20] <maco> ScottK: oh
[20:21] <ScottK> Riddell: What I don't want is us having to maintain a stack of patches.
[20:21] <apachelogger> Riddell: doesn't work
[20:21] <Riddell> ScottK: I havn't spoken to upstream, because it's not very interesting to them until it's working, but I'll do that tomorrow and if it's not upstream toot sweet I'll be as disappointed as anyone
[20:22] <ScottK> Riddell: Also testing can be done in a PPA.
[20:22] <ScottK> As long as it's not on by default and upstreamed or dropped before release, I'm OK.
[20:22] <apachelogger> hm
[20:22] <ScottK> I thought the way the notification patches were handled was just right.
[20:22] <apachelogger> Riddell: the applet is by default on the panel?
[20:23] <Riddell> apachelogger: should be for now yes
[20:23] <apachelogger> Riddell: is that going to change?
[20:23] <Riddell> apachelogger: it's waiting for feedback, so depending on the feedback it may
[20:23] <Riddell> I think I'd prefer it inside the systray for example
[20:23] <apachelogger> I find it a waste of panel real estate
[20:24] <ScottK> Inside the systray would be better.
[20:24]  * ScottK thought it was going to be a systray app
[20:24] <Riddell> and in the hidden part of the systray until it has something to notify about
[20:24] <apachelogger> it should be sharing that "i" with the normal KDE notifications TBH
[20:24] <maco> apachelogger: agreed. im guessing the "how" of that was problematic
[20:25] <Riddell> anyway, we can gather feedback and send it to aurelien
[20:25] <ScottK> Well that "i" should also hide when it has nothing to say
[20:25] <apachelogger> true
[20:25] <Riddell> and I'll make sure me and/or him talk to the konversation people
[20:25]  * rgreening agrees with that
[20:25] <apachelogger> so
[20:25] <apachelogger> I am wondering
[20:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: why is it going to extragear and not kdelibs?
[20:25] <rgreening> auto hide until needed is best for anything in systray
[20:25] <ScottK> Riddell: So is it agreed that this stuff should either be upstreamed or we don't ship it (for release)?
[20:26] <Riddell> apachelogger: the applet isn't really libs material :)
[20:26] <Riddell> kdeplasma-addons could have it
[20:26] <Riddell> ScottK: yes I agree
[20:26] <apachelogger> well, the general communication and stuff
[20:26] <Nightrose> ScottK: it was _very_ annoying to see my systray jump around for every notifivation before 4.3
[20:26] <Nightrose> so I am quite happy with the way it is now in 4.3
[20:26] <Nightrose> ie i not going away
[20:26] <ScottK> Riddell: OK.  That was my main concern
[20:26] <Riddell> apachelogger: knotify would be best for those parts yes
[20:27] <apachelogger> Riddell: I would very much prefer that over extragear
[20:27] <apachelogger> because the extragear concept sounds like how gnome implemented notifications
[20:27] <rgreening> good point Nightrose...
[20:28] <Nightrose> it was very distracting also
[20:28] <Riddell> any other business?
[20:28] <Riddell> maco: do you have any other business?
[20:28]  * ScottK defers to seele in the 'i'
[20:28] <ScottK> in/on
[20:28] <seele> hmm?
[20:28] <apachelogger> iBug
[20:28] <apachelogger> Riddell: plasma-desktop crashes after some time
[20:29] <ScottK> plasma-netbook is pretty stable, although 'feature limited'.
[20:29] <Riddell> apachelogger: it's been super stable for me
[20:29] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[20:29] <apachelogger> maybe it is related to my not-workingness
[20:29] <Riddell> plasma-netbook and kwin-mid has some obvious bugs I'm assuming are known about
[20:29] <maco> oh yeah can i apply for kubuntu membership?
[20:29] <apachelogger> sure
[20:29] <Riddell> ooh there's an idea maco
[20:30] <ScottK> +1 for maco
[20:30] <apachelogger> I suppose we have a quorum
[20:30] <maco> i missed at the beginning
[20:30] <Riddell> maco is already an Ubuntu member so has a slightly out-of-date wiki page somewhere
[20:30] <seele> +1 maco
[20:30] <maco> http://wiki.kubuntu.org/MacoMorgan
[20:30] <maco> i slightly updated it during the meeting :P
[20:30] <seele> we will stealz the ubuntu devs!
[20:30] <apachelogger> hm
[20:30] <ScottK> Need to get her to be a dev first
[20:30] <maco> seele: i'z not ubuntu dev :P
[20:30]  * apachelogger reads wiki page because maco updated it
[20:30] <Nightrose> +1 for maco of course
[20:31] <Riddell> nobody even have a question before voting?
[20:31] <maco> haha
[20:31] <apachelogger> sure we have
[20:31] <apachelogger> so
[20:31] <apachelogger> maco: why kubuntu?
[20:32] <rgreening> +1
[20:32]  * Nightrose could probably come up with one if needsbe ;-)
[20:32] <Riddell> will it cause discort in the maco household if we slag off pulseaudio too much? :)
[20:32] <maco> remember when alberto committed a way to let you turn zapping on in kubuntu but then it ws rejected in ubuntu? was talking to ScottK about that and he pointed out that if i actually like control i should try kde
[20:32] <rgreening> maco is teh awesome
[20:33] <maco> Riddell: dude, i hear the rants about pulseaudio and alsa from him much more than from you guys
[20:33]  * apachelogger only rants about l10n
[20:33] <apachelogger> maco: what do you think about l10n in kubuntu?
[20:33]  * apachelogger hands ScottK a cookie
[20:33] <Nightrose> maco: do we have enough women in kubuntu?
[20:33]  * ScottK rants about ~ppax revisions in uploads to the archive.
[20:33]  * apachelogger hands ScottK another cookie
[20:33] <Riddell> ScottK: tsk, who would do a think like that
[20:33] <maco> apachelogger: i think itd be nice if setting it to use spanish first, english second, andjapanese third didnt result in any japanese showing at all
[20:34] <ScottK> That and 92 unread emails since I last looked.
[20:34]  * rgreening thinks we need to teach seele to program
[20:34] <maco> apachelogger: i dont know how there werent english transations for some strings there
[20:34] <apachelogger> Riddell: Nightrose probably would, if she could
[20:34] <Nightrose> likely
[20:34] <apachelogger> maco: en_US?
[20:34] <seele> rgreening: why when i could be doing other things?
[20:34] <Nightrose> what again?
[20:34] <maco> apachelogger: aye
[20:34] <apachelogger> might be rosetta related problems
[20:34] <rgreening> :)
[20:34]  * seele had several cs courses in uni you know :P
[20:35] <apachelogger> though in general that rationale is quite odd :P
[20:35]  * rgreening did not know that about seele.
[20:35] <maco> i thought seele could program and didnt like to
[20:35] <apachelogger> maco: if you were an animal, what woudl you be?
[20:35] <seele> maco: basically
[20:35] <rgreening> lol
[20:35] <seele> although i'm pretty out of practice by now so i wouldnt be much use
[20:35] <rgreening> I've not met a programmer who didn't like ot program... My world is shattered
[20:35] <apachelogger> seele: would always be enough for python coding :P
[20:35] <maco> haha
[20:36]  * rgreening glares at apachelogger
[20:36] <ScottK> seele: Your couple of CS courses at university are probably more than a decade more recent than mine.
[20:36] <Riddell> I fear this is getting silly
[20:36] <Nightrose> rgreening: add a second one to that list then ;-)
[20:36] <maco> apachelogger: what rationale?
[20:36] <Riddell> I say + 1 for maco
[20:36] <seele> ScottK: i had c++ so i'm out of date with the new kids who learn java only
[20:36] <apachelogger> maco: the one with es-en-jp
[20:36] <maco> Riddell: im giggling
[20:36] <ScottK> seele: I learned Pascal, COBOL, and ForTran.
[20:36] <apachelogger> since en should technically be complete there would not be a point in jp being last
[20:36] <maco> apachelogger: oh. well i got to see layers of fubar when i had those l10n settings on my computer
[20:36] <Riddell> apachelogger, rgreening: got votes?
[20:37] <rgreening> +1 from me for maco
[20:37] <maco> ScottK: yikes
[20:37] <seele> ScottK: lol i didnt realise you were *that* old ;)
[20:37] <apachelogger> first
[20:37] <apachelogger> maco: what animal?
[20:37] <maco> kitty?
[20:37] <apachelogger> sounds good
[20:37] <apachelogger> +1
[20:37] <Riddell> congratulations maco
[20:37]  * maco goes to pet the kitty on the window sill
[20:37]  * apachelogger hands maco membership cookies
[20:38] <rgreening> seele: I did assembly on PDP-11
[20:38] <Riddell> any other business?
[20:38]  * rgreening is almost as old as ScottK
[20:38] <rgreening> nope. Not here...
[20:38] <apachelogger> anyone got great ideas as to what to do about networking?
[20:38] <seele> assembly is still a cs requirement i think
[20:38]  * maco superglues merlin beards to rgreening and ScottK
[20:38] <maco> seele: yes. i had to do mips asm
[20:38] <apachelogger> recently networkmanager was bumped to 0.8 in karmic, which is of course not supported by knetworkmanager
[20:38] <apachelogger> hence completely broken networking
[20:38] <apachelogger> again
[20:38] <Riddell> apachelogger: asac and awe are looking into it
[20:38] <rgreening> Stupid NetworkMangler
[20:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: what would be the outcome of that?
[20:39] <Riddell> I showed them the code and they've said they'll get it working again
[20:39] <apachelogger> them fixing knetworkmanager up for 0.8 or downgrading
[20:39] <apachelogger> oh, that sounds good to me
[20:39] <ScottK> seele: Yes.  My assembly language was modern.  It was Z80.
[20:39] <Riddell> fixing knetworkmanager up
[20:39] <apachelogger> though expect ranting if it doesn't get done :P
[20:39] <apachelogger> another business I have
[20:40] <apachelogger> nuno recently mentioned that kubuntu didn't sign up for the KDE branding stuff they started a month or two ago
[20:40] <Riddell> yeah we need to make sure they don't drop it, but awe (Tony Espy) e-mailed me yesterday about it so he should be onto it
[20:40] <ScottK> Riddell: NM 0.8 means bluetooth DUN support.  This is pretty huge for netbook.  Any chances of it working with kdebluetooth?
[20:40] <Riddell> mm, we didn't?
[20:40] <apachelogger> apparently not
[20:40]  * ScottK thought we did.
[20:40]  * apachelogger too :D
[20:40] <apachelogger> so everyone though we did but in fact no one signed us up :D
[20:40] <apachelogger> s/though/thought
[20:40] <rgreening> doh
[20:40] <ScottK> action to maco to go hunt down shtylman and make him apply.
[20:40] <Riddell> I can talk to him to ask what that would entail
[20:41] <rgreening> +1
[20:41] <ScottK> even better
[20:41] <apachelogger> maybe both?
[20:41] <Riddell> ScottK: I'd expect that NM takes care of the bluetooth side if it has the appropriate UI code (although I could be wrong)
[20:41] <maco> someone said 0.8 is supposed to on the u-devel list, yeah
[20:42] <seele> ok all done here?
[20:42] <Riddell> yes, thanks all
[20:42]  * Riddell canoes off into the distance
[20:42] <apachelogger> those canoers
[20:42]  * seele plays adventure music in the background
[20:42]  * apachelogger hands everyone a cookie and gives everyone a hug
[20:45]  * Nightrose rehugs apachelogger
[20:45]  * Nightrose waves goodby to the canoeing Riddell
[20:45]  * ScottK stands by the shore with a life vest and a rope
[20:46]  * maco grabs rope from ScottK and yanks HARD, pulling Riddell out of canoe and into water
[20:46] <maco> *giggle*
[20:46] <ScottK> maco: Did you get voted in?  I couldn't tell.
[20:46] <maco> ScottK: yeah
[20:46]  * apachelogger doubts it
[20:46] <apachelogger> oh
[20:46]  * apachelogger scuttles off to shower
[20:46] <maco> at least there was something about membership cookies?
[20:47] <maco> ScottK: i didnt see any -1's but there were +1's before question-asking
[20:47] <apachelogger> maco: I recommend you put them in your kcookiejar, so they stay fresh ;-)
[20:47] <maco> apachelogger: wouldnt that just be kookiejar?
[20:48] <apachelogger> /opt/kde-nightly/bin/kcookiejar4
[20:48] <apachelogger> apparently not
[20:49] <maco> wait that exi...ok