[07:07] <mac_v> mrooney: ping
[07:20] <mrooney> mac
[07:20] <mrooney> mac_v: hi!
[07:21] <mac_v> mrooney: hi.. is this bug fixed ? Bug #386196 
[07:21] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 386196 in update-manager "package synopsis/tagline/summary should be first, not package name" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386196
[07:22] <mac_v> the list displayed is different from jaunty ,but i think it can be refined properly... 
[07:38] <mrooney> mac_v: hm I don't know, I haven't booted into Karmic in a bit
[07:38] <mac_v> mrooney: ok... nevermind... i think mpt will take care of it :)
[07:47] <mrooney> yes, I think faith in him is deserved :)
[08:55] <thekorn> hi, I'm just looking over the list of todays notify-osd hugday, and there is one question for me:
[08:55] <thekorn> is it a valid bug if something is not working/not looking like described in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD ?
[09:33] <MDC2> mac_v, I'll take a look at the patches you sent me
[09:34] <mac_v> MDC2: nice...  :)
[09:41] <MDC2> mac_v, is this still an issue now that text beside icons is the default? https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/390724
[09:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 390724 in nautilus "Back button (most used) in Nautilus smaller than rest" [Low,Confirmed] 
[09:41] <mac_v> MDC2: text beside icon is default? 
[09:42] <MDC2> mac_v, hmm.. maybe it was only proposed.. ok, sorry then :)
[09:43] <mac_v> MDC2: :) , text below is the default , BTW is it possible to fix it? without adding whitespaces?
[09:43] <MDC2> mac_v, not sure, I think I took a look at it earlier and couldn't see anything strange then, but i'll see what can be dont
[09:44] <MDC2> done
[10:05] <MDC2> mac_v, hmm.. another thing (about icons in menus again) - when a toolbar get to small to display all items it gets a dropdown menu. Should that menu has icons?
[10:07] <mac_v> MDC2: example? an icon needs to be used if it is essential it doesn matter if it is in the progressive-disclosure menu or not
[10:08] <MDC2> mac_v, nautilus for example. ok.
[10:13] <mac_v> MDC2: Bug #160311 , can invisible borders be added in metacity rather than the theme?
[10:13] <MDC2> mac_v, but it do seems a little bit strange. just because the window is to small to display the buttons (which could be icon only) the icons aren't "important" enough when displayed in a menu... 
[10:13] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 160311 in hundredpapercuts "Resizing windows by grabbing window borders is difficult" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160311
[10:14] <MDC2> mac_v, hmm.. could take a look at it after the nautilus bugs - but i will probably fail :-)
[10:14] <mac_v> MDC2: screenshot pls? i really dont understand where the nautilus menus are being sorted into drop down
[10:14] <MDC2> ah.. np
[10:15] <MDC2> http://www.mejlamej.nu/tm.png
[10:18] <mac_v> MDC2: nope, icons need to be displayed with text, if an object is using an icon it must *always* use the icon consistenly... 
[10:19] <mac_v> MDC2: if the the drop down doesnt show the text , its fine , but icons need to be present
[10:20] <mac_v> that is because , the user has selected the option , only icons , so text should not be displayed
[10:22] <MDC2> mac_v, not really with you - do you mean that it should display the icons to be consistent with the toolbar?
[10:22] <mac_v> MDC2: yes , only icons in the drop down too
[10:23] <MDC2> mac_v, ok so it's a gtk bug again :-)
[10:24] <mac_v> MDC2: how is that ? it needs to be parched in nautilus alone right?
[10:24] <mac_v> patched*
[10:24] <MDC2> mac_v, no its the toolbar that auto creates the dropdown
[10:24] <mac_v> oh ... ok
[10:25] <MDC2> mac_v, http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/unstable/GtkToolbar.html#GtkToolbar--show-arrow
[10:27] <mac_v> MDC2: actually no... i think its nautilus that needs a patch , enable the menu have icon gconf , and you can see the icon
[10:28] <MDC2> mac_v, yeah.. but how come that be a nautilus problem? Shouldn't gtk always set the icons in toolbar menus if the toolbar has menus?
[10:29] <MDC2> "toolbar has icons"..
[10:29] <mac_v> MDC2: i think it turns off icons from all menus , doesn have a setting for toolbars separately
[10:30] <MDC2> mac_v, exactly, but shouldn't toolbar menu set the "always icon" property on the menu items?
[10:30] <MDC2> mac_v, ... when to toolbar has icons
[10:31] <mac_v> MDC2: i'm not sure .... but cant nautilus do that ? force only icons on in the drop down
[10:32] <MDC2> mac_v, no it can't (as far as I know) - only gtk
[10:32] <MDC2> mac_v, or maybe when this bug is fixed; http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589842
[10:32] <ubot4> MDC2: Error: Could not parse XML returned by Gnome: timed out
[10:33] <MDC2> mdcbugbot: GtkAction API to have its menu item proxies have always-show-image set
[10:35] <mac_v> MDC2: well, for now , we can just force the icons , the text can be removed later
[11:23] <MDC2> mac_v, something like this; http://www.mejlamej.nu/free.png
[11:24] <mac_v> MDC2: can the "free space" be always constant either on left or right? [preferably left]
[11:24] <mac_v> edge that is
[11:25] <MDC2> mac_v, problem is when space is limited i would favour see information about the stuff I've selected rather then free space..
[11:26] <mac_v> MDC2: but constantly moving one element's position is not right , it needs to be fixed
[11:27] <mac_v> MDC2: the problem you point out , is only when the window is tiny , which is rare
[11:27] <MDC2> mac_v, and "always last" is not a valid fixed position? :)
[11:27] <mac_v> nope ;)
[11:28] <MDC2> mac_v, well, a "tiny" window like that isn't rare the full text with folders and items and free space takes up almost 750px..
[11:29] <MDC2> mac_v, and if you don't browse in fullscreen (i hope most people don't) and have a small screen (eg netbook), the string will be cut..
[11:30] <MDC2> mac_v, http://www.mejlamej.nu/pe.png to get perspective of the size..
[11:33] <mac_v> MDC2: i actually dont see a problem, you just are re-arranging the order , there is extra space on the right too , but it wont be necessary
[11:33] <mac_v> MDC2: the normal window will be able fit all the info wit some space left...
[11:34] <MDC2> mac_v, problem is also that free space isn't always available..
[11:34] <mac_v> MDC2: how about aligning "Free space" to the right constantly?
[11:35] <mac_v> MDC2: why isnt it available?
[11:35] <MDC2> Computer
[11:36] <MDC2> mac_v, and ssh shares for example
[11:36] <mac_v> MDC2: ah... those we dont need to display... we could just leave the space empty , we cant access them
[11:37] <MDC2> mac_v, i'll give right aligning the text a try..
[11:37] <mac_v> MDC2: also "F" for "Free space" not "f"
[11:37] <MDC2> yep
[11:38] <mac_v> MDC2: the screenshots were using the small letter , hence i reminded :)
[11:38] <MDC2> mac_v, fixed here :)
[11:48] <MDC2> mac_v, hmm.. that seems like a little bit more work than I thought.. maybe I should ask upstream what they think about this first?
[11:49] <mac_v> MDC2: sure... 
[12:10] <MDC2> mac_v, about the eject bug - what exactly is to be done? 1) icons from menus are removed so this is of little importance now and 2) haven't got my question answered either... 
[12:11] <mac_v> MDC2: oops , mpt is not here.! does eject not count as an object? i'm a bit confused about that..
[12:13] <MDC2> mac_v, oh.. have no idea - as you know i'm quite lost in the icons here not icons there thingy ;-)
[12:13] <MDC2> mac_v, lets ask mpt when he gets back
[12:14] <MDC2> mac_v, but if they always should have icons - should both eject and unmount have icons?
[12:15] <mac_v> MDC2: i thought i replied to that , unmount is being replaced every where with eject , unmount will be used only for partitioons
[12:15] <MDC2> mac_v, but still - should they have icons?
[12:16] <mac_v> MDC2: only one option would exist [either eject/unmount] but the icon i'm confused
[12:17] <MDC2> mac_h, ok, but it isn't changed yet - right?
[12:17] <MDC2> mac_v, karmic up2date still have both unmount and eject for cdrom
[12:17] <mac_v> MDC2: yeah i know... can you confirm when that change will be done fully?
[12:18] <mac_v> with upstream , let me get you a link where it was said
[12:18] <MDC2> mac_v, first check with mpt?
[12:18] <mac_v> MDC2: sure
[12:20] <mac_v> MDC2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/28835/comments/62 , is Milan upstream nautilus dev?
[12:20] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 28835 in hundredpapercuts ""Unmount" in volume right-click menu, is tech-speak and undiscoverable" [Medium,Confirmed] 
[12:21] <MDC2> mac_v, have no idea, just get in to this world :-)
[12:21] <mac_v> ;)
[12:22] <hyperair> i think unmount is as good as it gets, so just live with it =p
[12:22] <mac_v> hyperair: me too :)
[12:23] <mac_v> hyperair: MDC2 we are trying to simplify unmount to Eject , while Win7 now has "Dismount" ! 
[12:23] <mac_v> then what again back to unmount in a few yrs!
[12:23]  * hyperair facepalm
[12:23] <hyperair> dismount, unmount, blargh!
[12:23] <hyperair> unmount is a better term imo
[12:24] <hyperair> hell umount stands for unmount
[12:24] <hyperair> just stick with it
[12:24] <hyperair> mark it won'tfix or something
[12:33] <MDC2> mac_v, i think i have to give up on the back button; tried setting both back and forward to homogeneous but it didn't help (not sure why, no warnings/error - nothing). And forcing the button to a specific width would create more problem (icons only, text besides icons, different theme/language/font etc) ... so I have no clue what to do... 
[12:34]  * MacSlow -> lunch
[12:35] <mac_v> MDC2: ok... leave the bug assigned to you , see if in a week or 2 you have any ideas , if not unassign it , and attach what you have done , so others can carry it forward
[14:14] <MDC2> mpt, about https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/392423, should the eject icon be always-visible ?
[14:14] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 392423 in nautilus "unmount menu option should have an icon" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
[14:16] <mpt> MDC2, none of the items shown in <http://launchpadlibrarian.net/28415201/papercut.png> represent dynamic objects, so none should have icons by default
[14:17] <mpt> eject included
[14:17] <MDC2> mpt, thanks. mac_v ^^
[14:17] <mpt> I have no objection to you adding it for the people who have icons turned on. :-)
[14:17] <MDC2> mpt, then I think the patch availible should be enough
[14:17] <mac_v> MDC2: :) 
[14:17] <mpt> I'll add this to the bug report
[14:18] <MDC2> mac_v - so no action until the unmount, dismount, eject, whatever issue has been solved?
[14:18] <MDC2> mpt, thanks
[14:19] <mac_v> MDC2: yeah , i guess , the patch isnt even necessary
[14:19] <MDC2> mpt, what about trash? isn't that a "place" ?
[14:19] <mpt> MDC2, yes it is, but "Move to Trash" is not
[14:19] <MDC2> ok.. :-)
[14:19] <MDC2> mac_v, close as wontfix?
[14:20] <mpt> If there was a "Move to" submenu that had a bunch of items, "Home", "Documents", "Photos", "Trash", etc, it would make sense to give each of *those* icons
[14:20] <MDC2> mpt, like in send to?
[14:20] <mpt> like the "Open With" submenu has (or soon will have) icons for each application
[14:20] <mpt> yes
[14:21] <mpt> well, like the Send To submenu in Windows
[14:21] <mpt> The "Send To" dialog in Nautilus is weird, I don't understand it
[14:21] <mac_v> MDC2: yeah , done
[14:21] <MDC2> mpt, hm... i thought we had send to menu in nautilus, but now when I looked it looks like we don't.. 
[14:22] <MDC2> mpt, haven't we had sent to bluetooth stuff?
[14:22] <mpt> MDC2, maybe we do, I don't have bluetooth on this machine
[14:23] <MDC2> mpt, found the bluetooth dongle and its in the dialog...
[14:26] <mac_v> mpt: you said earlier context menus shouldnt have submenus ;) , why send to is a exception ;p
[14:26] <mac_v> an*
[14:26] <mpt> mac_v, it's not, I don't think the Windows "Send To" submenu is a good design either
[14:26] <mpt> I'm commenting only on, *if* it existed, whether the items in it should have icons or not :-)
[14:27] <mac_v> hehe.., ok ;)
[14:27] <mpt> Same goes for the existing "Open With", though I expect not many people would agree with me on that
[14:28] <MDC2> mpt, I for one don't :-)
[14:29] <mac_v> mpt: if its not a submenu it would become too huge :( , we need to have an "advanced options " context menu item , which has submenus ,and decrease the main context menu items
[14:30] <mac_v> mpt: BTW , i'v over-burdened you ;p  , i'v assigned a few update-manager bugs to you , they are all simple design decisions , while you are reworking the u-m
[14:33] <mac_v> MDC2: mpt: weird , why do we have 2 options "Open" and "Browse" when we click on folders on Desktop? and both do the same
[14:33] <MDC2> mac_v, i think there's a bug about that...
[14:33] <mac_v> ah...
[14:35] <mpt> mac_v, the "Open With" submenu easily becomes huge too (especially for Web developers for example), to the point where going straight to a dialog would be more managable
[14:36] <mpt> mac_v, MDC2, they do the same thing if "Always open in browser windows" is checked, but different things if it's unchecked
[14:36] <mac_v> oh , you want to add dialogues ... hmm..
[14:37] <mpt> Exercise for you: Think of three different designs for fixing that Open vs. Browse problem. :-)
[14:38] <mac_v> mpt: you mean , for the one i just mentioned ?
[14:38] <mpt> yes
[14:38] <mac_v> hmm...
[14:38] <mpt> (now that I've told you the immediate cause of the problem)
[14:39] <MDC2> 1) remove either spatial or browsing mode 2) remove one option if isnt necessary 3) just leave it, only 0.2 % people that will care, the rest won't notice :-)
[14:43] <mpt> #1 and #2 are designs for fixing it. #3 is a design for *not* fixing it. :-P
[14:43] <mac_v> lol 
[14:45] <mpt> The reason both items are there, afaik, is that even people who use spatial mode (such as myself) want to browse occasionally, mainly when we're diving in and out of deep hierarchies
[14:45] <mpt> So #2 would make me incapable of browsing at all
[14:47] <mpt> The Nautilus maintainers' approach is, afaict, that whether you want spatial mode or not is user-specific. My approach is that it's partly user-specific, but partly folder-specific. The browser stuff is rarely useful when foraging through the Trash, for example.
[14:47] <mac_v> I have never used spatial windows...  anyways, 1] label "Open" > "Spatial mode" /"Spatial viewer" or something with "Spatial" it the option
[14:49] <mpt> Well there's already an item labelled "Open" and an item labelled "Browse". Merely renaming the items wouldn't fix the bug, and it would also introduce a new "spatial" term for people to learn when they really needn't.
[14:49] <mpt> Currently the only time users come across the "spatial" term is if they make the grave mistake of going into Nautilus's help. ;-)
[14:51] <mpt> "For a comparison of browser mode and spatial mode, see Section 6.1.2 File Manager Presentation, subclause (a) (ii), paragraph 4. Please take caffeine pills before proceeding."
[14:51] <mac_v> mpt: corollary to 1] rename "Browse folder" > "Open" and make it the first choice ,  this would be better than the present behavior ... i still have to come up with 2 ,3 ;p
[14:55] <mpt> So, here's a (4): "Open" always opens in spatial mode, and "Browse" always opens in browser mode. Change the "Always open in browser windows" checkbox to a pair of radio buttons: "Double-clicking opens a folder in: (*)  the same window  ( ) a separate window".
[14:55] <mpt> So double-clicking does what you expect, the Enter key does the same thing as double-clicking does, but both items are in the context menu in case you want to do the opposite for a particular folder.
[14:56] <mac_v> mpt: hei ... you just stole part of 2 ;)
[14:57] <mpt> By my count I'm not removing any options, just replacing one with another :-)
[14:57] <mpt> It's a good rule of thumb that whenever a checkbox label starts with the word "Always", it's unclear and needs to be turned into a pair of radio buttons.
[15:01] <mac_v> "Double-clicking opens a folder in: (*)  the same window  ( ) a separate window" < this is the exact windows XP option , i wonder why nautilus did it differently!
[15:02] <mpt> Really? Windows XP has the same?
[15:03] <mac_v> mpt: yeah exact, since SP2 i'm not sure if earlier
[15:04] <mpt> huh, so it is
[15:04] <mac_v> mpt: IIRC , same words too , i think you must have had a deja-vous ;p
[15:04] <mpt> http://help.aol.com/Platform/Publishing/images/xp_folder_options_view_tab_modified.gif
[15:05] <mac_v> oh... not same words ;)
[15:07] <mac_v> mpt: do you store all these images? or random google them? 
[15:07] <mpt> Google Images is my friend
[15:07] <mac_v> :)
[15:08] <mac_v> mpt: BTW , have you noticed this blog > http://www.brandonwalkin.com/blog/2009/08/10/managing-ui-complexity/ 
[15:08] <mac_v> was a nice read
[15:08] <mpt> mac_v, yes
[15:10] <mpt> I found the first section particularly interesting in that Windows applications are becoming less consistent with each other over time
[15:12] <mac_v> yeah , and also the alignment section , BTW is he an apple designer? 
[15:14] <mpt> e.g. Microsoft gained masses of click data that told them that Paste was the most commonly used action in Microsoft Word, so Paste has a big fat button at the start of the Word 2007 ribbon. But then how do you paste in OneNote 2007, or Access 2007, or Internet Explorer 8? It's in four different places.
[15:15] <mpt> "I work as a User Experience Designer at Marketcircle", it says
[15:15] <mac_v> hehe , just noticed that !
[15:15] <mpt> Apple designers hardly ever talk about their work publicly
[15:15] <mpt> (software designers, at least, Jony Ive occasionally gives talks)
[15:16] <mpt> http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2008/03/apples_design_p.html is a notable exception
[15:16] <mac_v> :/
[15:17] <mac_v> yeah , i'v read that some time ago
[15:28] <mac_v> mpt: 2] Behavior tab has> Always open windows [*] In same browser [ ] Spatial Windows , when user has selected the an option for instance: Browser , the first option "Open" opens windows in Browser , second option is now "Spatial mode" , if user has selected Spatial , "Open" opens windows in spatial mode and the second option is now "Browse" 
[15:28] <mac_v> as of now there is no way to open folders in spatial view!
[15:29] <mac_v> if the user selects the browser option
[15:33] <mpt> mac_v, ok, now work on that some more so that it doesn't need to display the word "spatial" anywhere :-)
[15:34] <mpt> Spatial presentation is a design philosophy, it's a *reason* for showing folders in separate windows, it's not a term users should have to know about themselves.
[15:34] <mac_v> mpt: simple > just replace spatial > with a user friendly word
[15:34] <mac_v> ;p
[15:35] <mpt> such as? :-)
[15:35] <mac_v> ah... 
[16:02] <mac_v> mpt: mini viewer / compact viewer , mini browser / compact browser , something funky > "nautilus eye"
[16:03] <mpt> Nautilus eye?
[16:05] <mac_v> hehe... ;) 
[16:05] <mac_v> like "Eye of gnome"
[17:17] <GuyFromHell> I'm planning to make a patch on pidgin-libnotify to make the indicator applet optional (in terms of the ./configure script) so that I can get it running on my distro. would you guys like it after i'm done?
[17:17] <GuyFromHell> err, by pidgin-libnotify i mean debian patched pidgin-libnotify
[17:18] <GuyFromHell> wouldn't really change user's experience any, just want any other maints that come along not want to kill themselves
[17:32] <mac_v> djsiegel2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/400047/comments/10
[17:32] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 400047 in hundredpapercuts "Installer's "Install them side by side" option is vague and confusing" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
[17:33] <djsiegel2> mac_v stop bikeshedding
[17:34] <djsiegel2> the bug is to fix "them" -- it's starting to drag out
[17:34] <djsiegel2> and there is no significant difference in the phrasing of "share the disk" and "use the entire disk"
[17:34] <djsiegel2> to say one is a command and the other is something else -- I just don't see it
[17:37] <mac_v> djsiegel2: i would say , if you are fixing something fix it properly , but whatever is fine ...
[17:38] <djsiegel2> mac_v: we need to figure out when we stop fixing though
[17:38] <djsiegel2> Evan suggested redoing the installer, I think we can agree that goes too far
[17:38] <djsiegel2> I just think we are picking nits
[17:38] <djsiegel2> I can't imagine a user reading the options we have now and raising your objection
[17:38] <mac_v> djsiegel2: if he is fixing the installer we can invalidate the bug
[18:22] <GuyFromHell> So, how about that patch. Do you guys want it? Else it's going to rot in my hard drive since there's no other good place to put it.
[18:25] <mac_v> GuyFromHell: tedg is the person who is involved...he isnt here now...  you might try asking in #ubuntu-desktop
[18:26] <GuyFromHell> I'll just send him an e-mail with the patches, if he doesn't want it he can delete the e-mail or whatever
[18:27] <GuyFromHell> wow, i think he needs more email addresses :P
[18:53] <GuyFromHell> on second thought, this should prob go into launchpad. i'll do that instead...