=== lukjad007 is now known as lukjad454
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ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about now01:49
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about future02:03
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about past02:03
hggdhah, OK, it is Markovian02:03
dholbachhello everybody08:00
dholbachdo we have gilir, apw and Yulia here?08:00
gilirhi dholbach :)08:00
dholbachsoren, geser, persia`: want to chair?08:01
dholbachsuper :)08:01
persia`Someone else gets to do minutes :)08:01
MootBotMeeting started at 02:01. The chair is persia`.08:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]08:01
persia`[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting08:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting08:02
persia`Welcome to the MOTU Council meeting.08:02
persia`[TOPIC] MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)08:02
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)08:02
persia`[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/gilir/MOTUApplication08:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/gilir/MOTUApplication08:03
dholbachgilir: thanks for turning up and sorry for the meeting that didn't happen the last time08:04
dholbach(although I was computer-less at the time and probably in the middle of Iceland somewhere... :-))08:04
dholbachgilir: how are you doing?08:04
gilirdholbach: fine thanks and you :)08:05
dholbachI'm good, just a bit tired - thanks :-)08:05
dholbachgilir: in your application you mention that you'd like to see more interaction between Ubuntu and Debian and not as much delta - how do you think we can get new developers to help out with that more effectively?08:07
dholbachis it too hard? is it not understandable enough?08:09
gilirdholbach: I think new developpers or new contributors don't know enough Debian, like how report bugs08:09
gilirdholbach: sorry with my answers are a bit long, mpy english is not very good :)08:09
dholbachdon't worry, take your time :)08:09
dholbachdo you think it's documentation that's missing? or do we need better tools? or do we need more stories about collaboration? what do you think should we do? or what are you planning to do? :-)08:10
persia`gilir, While I largely agree that bringing packages into sync is a good thing, could you give a few examples of changes that might not be suitable to push to Debian?08:10
gilirand I think sometimes they forget to report an issue fixed on Ubuntu than can benefit to Debian too08:10
gilirdholbach: yes maybe documentation,, but I'm sure it's mostly a question of habits08:12
gilirpersia`: modifications specific to Ubuntu, like firefox/iceweasel08:13
dholbachgilir: we're very interested in making it easy to change those habits over time :-)08:13
gilirpersia`: IMO most of the modifications should go to Debian, the inverse is exception :)08:14
dholbachgeser, soren: do you have questions?08:15
persia`gilir, OK.  I've a hypothetical for you.  Let's say there's a segfault in nautilus, and a patch in Ubuntu to fix it.  Should that go to Debian?  Why or why not?08:15
sorendholbach: I do not.08:16
gilirpersia`: this should go upstream :)08:16
geserdholbach: no questions08:16
gilirpersia`: except if it's a patch to fix a segfault due to a packging issue08:16
gilirbut I can't think of real case for this one :)08:17
persia`gilir, OK.  How can we decide whether a given fix belongs upsteam or in Debian?08:17
gilirpersia`: for patches of the source, should go upstream instead of the changes is specific for Debian or Ubuntu (rename binary, special location of someting on the system)08:19
gilirbut if upstream is not active, or if the patch fix a important stuff, it can go to Debian also08:20
persia`Well, I think it's often a good idea to send source patches also to Debian, but the answer I was looking for is that some packages (like nautilus) tend to be newer in Ubuntu than Debian, so the patches won't apply and that a rule of thumb to guess if this is the case is a version with -0ubuntuN.08:21
* persia` is done with questions.08:21
gilirI have patches for gcc in mind, which fix FTBFS, for this example08:21
gilirgcc/new version of gcc08:21
dholbachI have no questions left either.08:21
persia`[VOTE] MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir)08:22
MootBotPlease vote on:  MOTU Application for Julien Lavergne (gilir).08:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot08:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting08:22
dholbach+1 fantastic work!08:23
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 108:23
soren+1 (mostly based on endorsements)08:23
MootBot+1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 208:23
persia`+1 : Good endorsements, good range of packages uploaded.  Some very strong technical work in some of the uploads.08:24
MootBot+1 received from persia`. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 308:24
MootBot+1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 408:24
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 408:25
persia`gilir, Congratulations!08:25
dholbachcongratulations gilir and welcome to the team!08:25
gilirthanks all :)08:25
dholbachapw: are you around? if not, juli__ would be next08:25
persia`[TOPIC] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)08:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)08:26
persia`[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication08:26
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication08:26
sorenI don't think he's here yet. I'll keep an eye out for him.08:26
persia`apw, How are you this morning?08:26
persia`OK.  Let's defer this then.08:26
persia`[TOPIC] Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)08:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)08:27
persia`[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YuliaNovozhilova/PerPackageUploaderApplication08:27
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YuliaNovozhilova/PerPackageUploaderApplication08:27
persia`juli__, How are you today?08:27
juli__persia`, fine, thanks... a bit nervous though... how are you?08:28
persia`I'm pretty good.08:28
persia`juli__, Your package upload list is a lot longer than your request for packages to upload list.  Could you comment on why you selected the specific packages?08:29
juli__I selected packages which I thing are netbenas specific08:29
juli__the rest packages are just java libraries that can be useful for everybody... I would be happy to upload them as well but not sure it is ok since I apply for netbeans only08:30
juli__and anyway, there will be new and new packages in the future:)08:31
juli__since NetBeans needs a lot of external dependencies08:31
apwapw here08:32
persia`apw, We'll get back to you soonish then :)08:32
dholbachjuli__: in your application you mention that the java packaging team is too small - do you have any idea why that is?08:33
juli__I believe it is small because ubuntu guys like python and another tools, but I'm really sure. I like java and completely don't understand such unfairness:)08:34
dholbachis it too hard?08:34
juli__I'm NOT really sure08:35
juli__may be it is not easy in the beginning but then it is powerful and really cool08:35
dholbachdo you have any idea how we could attract more people to maintain java packages in Ubuntu?08:36
juli__dholbach,  I believe java team is going to grow:)08:36
dholbachI hope so too :-)08:37
dholbachpersia`, geser, soren: questions?08:37
persia`juli__, Theother thing you indicate you dislike is that MOTU are too busy.  Do you have any suggestions as to how this can be resolved?08:38
juli__dholbach, hmmm... the best way for me is to make Ubuntu the best, so people will want to package there tools08:38
juli__persia`, more MOTUs?08:38
sorendholbach: No, I'm good.08:39
juli__I mean if there will be MOTU who are generally workink on sponsorship everything will be ok, I believe08:39
* persia` is done.08:40
persia`dholbach, geser ?08:40
geserno questions08:40
dholbachme neither08:43
persia`[VOTE] Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli)08:43
MootBotPlease vote on:  Netbeans related packages upload permission for Yulia Novozhilova (Juli).08:43
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot08:43
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting08:43
persia`+1 as might be obvious from my endorsement08:43
MootBot+1 received from persia`. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 108:43
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 208:43
MootBot+1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 308:43
* persia` imagines a fiercely debated Danish caucus.08:48
=== persia` is now known as persia
persiasoren, Do you need questions reopened?08:50
* dholbach places a call to Denmark08:52
dholbachsoren says he's working on getting back08:53
* soren walks back into the room08:53
sorenGEez, sorry about that.08:53
MootBot+1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 408:53
persiajuli__, We'll recommend your application to the Technical Board.  good luck!08:53
dholbachcongratulations juli__ - the TB will be in touch with you soon! :)08:54
sorenOne of my three routers/firewalls really doesn't like me this morning.08:54
juli__ thanks guys!08:54
persia[TOPIC] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)08:54
dholbachapw: excited? :)08:54
apwhere (this time!)08:54
persia[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication08:54
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndyWhitcroft/KernelUploadsApplication08:54
apwfirst apologies for missing you at the start of the meeting, seems xchat wasn't connected to my proxy, doh.  technology who'd use it08:54
apwyeah i am excited now ...08:55
dholbachapw: so cjwatson says you're probably the most English person he knows... what could he possibly mean? does it have anything to do with "burning the candle from both sides"?08:55
* dholbach chuckles08:55
apwheh, probabally more about the amount of tea i drink and my direct way of speaking :)08:55
dholbachthe endorsements were fun to read :)08:55
dholbachso nothing we should aim to fix? :-)08:56
apwa ton of things we should aim to fix for sure08:56
apwfor the kernel i think our biggest issue is the community, the disparity in the size thereof08:56
persiaapw, You win a prize: that has to be the most open bugs against an uploaded package I've seen for an applicant.  But you get a pass because it's the kernel.08:56
apwand the ammount of change we have to spoon into each and every release08:56
* apw hides under a rock and hums 'i am a spider'08:57
apwyeah we need to grow the community badly to help us, and we have been trying through our bug days08:57
apwlonger term i hope to be in a position to mentor some of those people into kernel maint.08:57
dholbachapw: do you have any ideas about the ubuntu kernel community? how is the kernel community patch review coming on?08:57
apwthe communiuty is starting to help out, we have a couple of regular community contributers to our bug days08:58
apwand we are starting to get the first pull requests from like the ports maintainers, and even audio08:58
apwso i think we are getting part of the message across08:59
dholbachI found that to be one of the biggest blockers in the "ubuntu minus the kernel" developer community, that stuff needs to get reviewed quickly and regularly08:59
apw'the kernel is a big package, but still a package'08:59
dholbachis that an issue in the kernel world? like some kind of patch hand-holding?08:59
apwone needs to be responsive when people find and offer patches true, but more of an issue is the quality of patches, or preveance08:59
apwupstreams tend to produce a lot of deubg patches which work for platform A09:00
apwbut knowlingly break everything else, so the patch works for the tester and proposer09:00
apwbut is not acceptable in that form, so we seem a bit 'noo thats no good' if we are not careful09:00
apwbut those pointers are still invaluable, and we need to be better at hoovering them up09:01
dholbachalright... that makes sense09:01
apwthat is one place where better mentoring of those helping triage can help us09:01
dholbachapw: what did you personally find most challenging in the ubuntu kernel world in the beginning?09:01
apwthe shear compelxity of the packaging.  being full time dedicated to the team09:02
apwmeant i had a lot of access to mentoring, but even with documentation09:02
apwthe packaging is mind mangling, and you cannot see why its so compelxz09:02
apwobviously its all there for something and you find out soon enought, but 'dammit how to i even test build this thing'09:02
apwthe communiuty then was much more closed too09:03
apwwe have worked a lot since the team is much larger to make it more open09:03
apwas you can be closed in a small team and still function but we are now beyond that working09:03
apwwhich is a good thing overall as we have better docs now, and a necessarily more enterable group/community09:03
apwclosed == dead in my view09:04
dholbachmaybe we need some kind of "Ubuntu Open Kernel Day" or something :-)09:04
dholbachlike open week09:04
persiaapw, You mention that you'd like a more robust method to carry several parallel kernels.  Do you have any ideas about how that might be implemented?09:04
dholbachthere's probably a lot (although there's more docs now) that people don't know yet09:04
apwyeah not a bad though09:04
apwthe simple idea of having N kernels is not hugly difficult to achieve i recon we can use more of the version for the modules etc09:05
apwthe issue is the relationsips with abi consumers such as the proprietry graphics drivers09:05
apwi think our first focus is moveing those all to a more reactive model, more dkms'y style updates09:05
apwthen we can change the kernel install to keep them 'all' or the last '5' or similar09:06
apwwe need a solution which is DKMS like but where we can pre-build them at kernel release time09:06
persiaDoesn't that have a significant performance impact on slower hardware?09:06
persiaAh, that addresses that :)09:06
apwto handle the netbooks though, as they are tooooo slow or small to have compilers09:06
apwobviously someone versed in dark arts would have to bless such a thing09:07
dholbachI have no more questions.09:07
persiaHave you investigated Provides, as is used for X drivers?09:07
apwno that i haven't09:08
persiaCould you share your opinion of the hardest part of packaging to work with, as applied to kernel packages?09:08
apwudeb and the abi09:09
apwthe abi because it is always biting one when making test kernels when you least expect it09:09
apwcaused by its necessary dependance on having package output in the package source09:09
apwand udebs, cause they are handled by kernel-wedge which makes the rest of the package looks simple09:10
apwand the consumers of each are different subsystems, often not noticing an error there when the next live cd tests are done09:10
apwthe support for those in the rules are just nasty, copying trees about umpteen times to get clean packages09:11
apwand often fragile to boot09:11
* persia is done with questions.09:12
persiasoren, geser ?09:12
* soren didn't even have any questions to begin with09:12
geserno questions09:13
soren..and still don't. Let's vote.09:13
persiasoren, While you never have questions, I insist on your right to qustions :)09:13
persia[VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)09:13
MootBotpersia, Only the meeting chair can do that09:13
sorenpersia: Apppreciated :)09:13
* persia grumbles09:13
sorenHe :)09:13
=== persia is now known as persia`
persia`[VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)09:13
MootBotpersia`, Either there isn't a meeting in progress, or there is already an active vote.09:13
* apw laughs at technology09:14
dholbachpersia`: can you end the meeting?09:14
persia`Right.  I don't care about MootBot.  Please vote.09:14
geserpersia` confused MootBot now totally09:14
sorenDi you end the last vote?09:15
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 409:15
sorenMootbot just told me in /query that I already voted :)09:15
persia`[VOTE] Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw)09:15
MootBotPlease vote on:  Kernel related packages upload permission for Andy Whitcroft (apw).09:15
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot09:15
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting09:15
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 109:15
MootBot+1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 209:15
persia`I thought I had, but apparently not.09:15
MootBot+1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 309:15
persia`+1 from me : previous kernels seem to have not caused more annoyance than usual.09:15
MootBot+1 received from persia`. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 409:15
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 409:15
geserpersia`: you had but as persia and not persia` so MootBot ignored you09:16
persia`apw, We'll recommend to the Technical Board that you be granted the requested upload permissions.  Good luck!09:16
apwthanks guys, and thanks for letting me on the menu at short notice09:16
sorenpersia`: Scrollback reveals that you did send the command, but MootBot seemed to ignore it.09:16
persia`geser, Ah.  That makes sense.09:16
persia`OK.  Anyone else have anything they really, really, really want discussed at this meeting?09:16
* dholbach doesn't09:17
* soren neither09:17
geserdo we plan to have an impromptu meeting for cody today?09:17
persia`What time?09:17
dholbachhe said he'd be about at ~13 UTC09:17
persia`[TOPIC] special session to review Cody Sommerville's application09:18
MootBotNew Topic:  special session to review Cody Sommerville's application09:18
persia`[AGREED] A special meeting will be held at 13:00 UTC today.09:18
MootBotAGREED received:  A special meeting will be held at 13:00 UTC today.09:18
persia`Anything else?09:18
* dholbach needs to head out and walk the dog09:19
persia`Well then.  To facilitate that:09:19
MootBotMeeting finished at 03:19.09:19
=== persia` is now known as persia
dholbachthe dog will appreciate it :)09:19
persiaMuch better :)09:19
dholbachsee you later09:19
persiaOh, who is processing these?09:20
dholbachI can do it once I get back09:20
dholbachsee you09:20
czajkowskipersia: morning09:29
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=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
huatsgilir: congrats10:27
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* slangasek waves15:59
* apw fades in ... 15:59
apwi will be subbing for pgraner for kernel15:59
* fader waves.16:00
* ogra strands16:00
MootBotMeeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.16:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:01
slangasekwe have a number of people off today (lool, pitti, rickspencer3, dendrobates, and it sounds like pgraner too)16:02
slangasekbut I think all the substitutions have been made in advance, so we can go ahead and get started :)16:02
slangasek[TOPIC] Actions from previous meetings16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Actions from previous meetings16:02
slangasekcjwatson: I recall that Gustavo was inconveniently on a plane when you went to talk to him about foundations-karmic-upgrade-support-in-landscape; has there been any follow-up since then?16:03
cjwatsonslangasek: yeah, I just did16:03
cjwatsonhe said "We were not yet able to test it, but we do have it in our queue.  I'll bring this up here in the sprint to try to schedule it properly already."16:03
slangasekI guess we'll leave that as an open item for next week, then16:05
slangasekother action items were:16:05
slangasek  * slangasek to look at 40890116:05
slangasekdone, in time for alpha-416:05
slangasek  * slangasek to follow up with ScottK off-line16:05
slangasekalso done16:05
slangasek  * slangasek, cjwaston, doko to discuss robust-python-packaging further16:05
cjwatsonI don't think we did16:05
slangasekstill needs doing16:05
cjwatsonI'm in the middle of converting lsb-release to python-central include-links, pursuant to that16:06
ScottKActually I'm here16:06
slangasekScottK: I was quoting from last week's agenda16:06
ScottKRight.  Noticed this after I replied.16:06
slangasekcjwatson: is there more we need to discuss, or is the path clear now?16:07
slangasekseems to me that there's agreement to carry this forward by converting the critical packages that need it16:07
cjwatsonI think so. Could you double-check with mvo, since he's the assignee on that spec? He's back next week, but I'm off next week16:08
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to check with mvo next week on foundations-karmic-robust-python-packaging16:08
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to check with mvo next week on foundations-karmic-robust-python-packaging16:08
slangasek[TOPIC] QA Team16:08
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Team16:09
slangasekheno, fader: diving right in, then - hi16:09
=== nijaba` is now known as nijaba
faderAutomated testing:16:09
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html16:09
faderNot much has changed since last week.  We're still seeing nautilus leave a crash log after startup but other than that we're looking pretty good.16:09
fadermathben, the intern helping us test laptops in the Montreal office, has gotten the syslogs requested for bug 40426416:09
ubottuLaunchpad bug 404264 in linux "karmic installer fails to detect Intel 82567 network card" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/40426416:09
faderThe kernel team has asked us to look at some System76 bugs, so for those we have hardware for, we will be spending some time today going through and reproducing some of those:16:10
faderAny questions about the testing?16:10
henook, spec status:16:11
heno* karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption - I've nagged the LP team some more and been promised this for their next release. Marjo will follow up next week.16:11
heno* karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing - Beta available. Keybuk and kirkland now have access to attachments from bootchart and power management testing16:11
heno* karmic-qa-extended-audio-testing - fader has written some tests but will extend coverage further; on track for alpha 516:11
henoGeneral spec status can be seen here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap16:11
henothat's all from QA - questions?16:13
slangaseknone from me; sounds like we're in good shape16:13
slangasekheno, fader: thanks16:13
slangasek[TOPIC] Desktop Team16:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop Team16:14
slangasekoh, I forgot to link to the agenda webpage earlier16:14
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-1416:14
seb128I'm new to this meeting so not sure about the format16:14
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-1416:14
slangasekthere's that16:14
seb128desktop side we landed GNOME 2.27.90 this week16:14
seb128https://wiki.canonical.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus for the dx work16:15
seb128expect low activity next week16:15
seb128rick will be back but pitti is still on vac16:15
seb128robert_ancell and I are away too16:15
seb128dxteam has some changes that didn't land this week coming though16:16
seb128notably new fusa applet16:16
seb128asac is around and dholbach will help on sponsoring16:16
seb128so things should be in shape16:16
slangasekseb128: reporting any relevant status on the topics in the agenda for your team, including using the opportunity to identify areas where other teams are blocking you; and identifying any potential trouble spots on your side that might cause problems for the release as a whole16:16
seb128the new fusa is blocked on ted knowledge16:16
seb128ie he's on vac and didn't communicate required infos16:17
seb128but that should be solved next week16:17
seb128that should be all from us16:17
seb128if you don't have question16:17
seb128and sorry about the gtk uploads16:17
ograblocked on ted knowledge ? educate him !16:17
seb128I wanted to fix client side issues before holidays16:17
slangasekseb128: a number of the bugs under the Desktop heading on the agenda have been lingering for a while; can you prod people about paying attention to them? (or have pitti do so next week)16:18
slangasek(e.g., I'd like my printer to work again some time before karmic is released :)16:19
seb128we still turn low speed next week16:19
seb128ie pitti is still on vac16:19
seb128we will catch up the week after that16:19
seb128if you have anything urgent next week ping asac16:19
slangaseksome of these are in the hands of community members, in any case, and haven't seen activity for three weeks or more16:19
seb128he will try to cover for us16:19
seb128ok, I will have a look to those today and do some pinged and updates16:19
slangasekok, thanks16:20
seb128pinged -> pinging16:20
ScottKFor desktop bugs, 339313 and 392593 are fix released as of a few hours ago.16:20
slangasekseb128: I also added one bug to the bottom of that list after the meeting started, bug #403549, which seems to be the one throwing all of fader's desktop hw tests red16:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 403549 in nautilus "nautilus crashed with SIGSEGV immediately after start up" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/40354916:21
slangasekso if someone has a chance to look at that one, I'm sure QA would appreciate it16:21
slangasekScottK: ah, nice!16:21
seb128I'm not sure if that's not a crash at shutdown16:21
seb128but I will ping upstream about this one16:21
seb128crash are shutdown tend to trigger apport on next login16:21
seb128ie it's annoying but not a real issue16:21
slangasekseb128: right - but it's a real issue in that the test harness can't tell the difference, so we either need to resolve it or have fader ignore the /var/crash check16:22
faderIf that result is an issue we can disable the test in our automated testing until the upstream issue is fixed; I'm just concerned we might miss other crashes16:22
slangasekfader: well, traditionally we resolve segfaults on shutdown by turning off apport at release time <cough>16:22
slangasekbut if we were to ignore /var/crash/_usr_bin_nautilus*, perhaps that would be enough16:23
seb128we would ignore lot of valid crashes16:23
seb128we could add a bug pattern16:23
seb128to stop those to be filed16:23
slangasekseb128: the hw testing checks for files in /var/crash, it's unrelated to whether bugs actually get filed16:24
seb128we lack a way to use bug patterns there16:24
faderslangasek: I'd add to that that the assumption is that I or someone else will see those crashes and file a bug if necessary, so it's (hopefully) not just noise16:25
seb128ie have a whitelist16:25
seb128but right if it doesn't get solved I will hack the nautilus hook16:25
slangasekok, sounds like we could benefit from more out-of-band discussion of this problem16:25
seb128to ignore those16:25
slangasek[ACTION] seb128 and fader to discuss options for working around nautilus crash on shutdown in hw testing lab16:26
MootBotACTION received:  seb128 and fader to discuss options for working around nautilus crash on shutdown in hw testing lab16:26
slangasekanything else for Desktop?16:26
slangasek[TOPIC] Mobile Team16:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Mobile Team16:26
slangasekseb128: thanks!16:26
seb128you're welcome16:26
ograi'm here on behalf of the mobile team but probably not up to date on all issues16:26
ogra* UNR: is pretty much on track, no special issues i know16:26
ogra* freescale-desktop: currently blocked by manoao not being able to produce livefses (bug 412757) lamont is researching options for upgrading/fixing manoao atm16:26
ogra* freescale-desktop: waiting for kernel renaming to the in jaunty used -imx51 instead of -babbage to keep a consistent naming scheme16:26
ogra* marvell-desktop: waiting for kernel, supposed to land on monday, NCommander to add image build scripts to build infrastructure after that16:26
ogra* lool worked on a status overview at http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html16:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 412757 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 squashfs as built on the armel livefs builder is broken" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/41275716:26
slangasek[LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html16:27
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html16:27
ograthats all i can report atm, if there are questions, try to ask me :)16:27
=== ember_ is now known as ember
ograwe sadly missed A4 for armel due to the builder breakage16:28
slangasekogra: perhaps we should talk through the kernel renaming while we're all here, to make sure we're all in agreement about what to expect after the next kernel upload?16:28
ScottKKDE is now building nicely on armel.16:28
ograwell, the kernels are supposed to support the full set of the subarch16:28
ScottKJust a couple of build failures for someone to dig into.16:28
ograso naming the flavour after a single board isnt really appropriate16:29
slangasekapw: are you in the loop on the linux-fsl-imx51 renaming discussion?16:29
apwi am aware of the issues, not 100% on the details of the resolution16:29
ograand i think there was agreement from the kernel team when we discussed it on wed.16:29
ograits only about binary names though, nobody in the mobile team cares about the source name i guess16:30
ogragiven that they are separated from the main sourcepackage anyway16:30
slangasekit's cheaper to double-check the details of that agreement than to have to go through an extra kernel upload cycle if something doesn't match as expected :)16:30
ograright, we want to have -imx51 and -dove kernels16:30
apwso i assume the babbage->imx51 is appropriate and the other16:31
ograand the respective metapackages16:31
ograafaik -dove is the name of the SoC16:31
apwahh ok so -dove ... i will check with tim that the names are getting sorted16:31
apwand imx51 is the soc for the other right?16:31
slangasek-dove is going to be from a separate source package, right?16:31
slangasek(due to patch load)16:31
apwslangasek, yes that is correct16:31
ograas imx51 is16:31
* ogra hopes that this will enable us as well to have images earlier next release, even with old kernels until the patches land16:33
slangasekso we can expect linux-image-2.6.31-0-imx51 / linux-headers-2.6.31-0-imx51 and linux-image-imx51 / linux-headers-imx51 in the next round?16:33
ograthats what i would expect, yes16:33
apwi will check up on that and get it confirmed16:33
slangasekah, currently we have linux-fsl-imx51-headers-2.6.31-0-babbage rather than linux-headers-2.6.31-0-babbage - I think it would be simpler to have it consistent (avoids extra special-casing in the meta packages), but that won't affect anything on the archive side16:34
slangasek(unlike the image packages, which *need* to be named linux-image-*)16:34
ograadditionally we also have the old -imx51 packages16:35
ograthat results in intresting content on the current livefs :)16:35
apwslangasek, yes we are looking to match your pattern there, the headers part is still ourstanding16:35
ograbecause the -imx51 header packages end up but your have linux-babbage as the kernel16:35
ogra*end up in the image16:35
ograslangasek, even linux-image-2*16:36
ograat least thats what livecd-rootfs expects16:36
slangasekScottK: is there demand for including KDE armel images in the alphas?  I've certainly been treating that like any other port for alphas, i.e., roll them if everything else is done and otherwise people can use dailies16:36
ScottKslangasek: We had some interest last cycle, not so much in Karmic, but we've also been broken on armel until roughly today.16:37
slangasekogra: I wonder why those old imx51 packages are there, either; seems like that needs to be cleaned up in the linux source package16:37
ograwell, we will only support two subarches this round16:37
slangasekotherwise, linux/linux-meta will shortly be FTBFS on armel, generating gratuitous mails to the kernel uploaders16:38
slangasekScottK: right16:38
ScottKI've been thinking it might make more sense to have kubuntu-netbook images on armel now that we've switched to plasma-netbook16:38
ograslangasek, yes, definately i only noticed it today during my squashfs debgging16:38
slangasekScottK: that sounds like a plan; talk in #ubuntu-release later?16:38
ScottKIt's significantly lighter16:38
ogradoe it run properly in framebuffer ?16:38
ogranote that we dont have any X drivers for any of the arches16:39
ScottKI don't know.16:39
slangasekany other questions for Mobile?16:39
ogranot to talk about GL or composite16:39
slangasekogra: if bug #391588 isn't critical for karmic, perhaps someone could tweak its release targeting or severity16:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 391588 in banshee "banshee fails to run on arm" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39158816:40
ScottKogra: Offline, If there's a way to test how it works in a framebuffer without having actual armel hardware, I'd like to discuss it.16:40
* ogra looks at what it is atm16:40
slangasek[TOPIC] Kernel Team16:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Team16:40
slangasekogra: thanks16:41
slangasekapw: and hello16:41
apwOverall kernel team status is summarised here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic including the bugs called out.  The ecryptfs bug has a plan in place and progressing.  The Intel boot issue is looking improved in later 2.6.31 kernels so we have hope of isolating the change.16:42
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:42
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:42
apwAll items which impact the distro release schedule seem to be on track at this time.  A fair proportion of the blueprints are now put to bed.  ARM development has been pulled out onto separate enablement branches to decouple the main distro architectures from ARM churn.  ARM itself is now back on track.  Apparmour is still carrying a couple of issues relating to looped back filesystems such as ecryptfs and aufs, there is a plan in place for that,16:42
apw generally security is happy with the feature set for release.  The mainline kernel is progressing on schedule so we do not anticipate any issues getting v2.6.31 in the can in time for our release.16:42
slangasekapw: any ETA on the ecryptfs issue, by chance?16:44
apwi don't know off the top of my head, but can find out.  i think the work around is at the easy end16:44
apwand the proper fix is pretty hard so going to be a while16:44
ttxapw: About bug 410198, it's blocking important features for Eucalyptus, so it might make sense to target it for the next milestone ?16:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 410198 in linux "'modprobe aoe' on Karmic kernel oopses with AOE device from Jaunty" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/41019816:44
apwalpha-4 i done, so A-516:45
slangasekapw: thanks, no other questions here (having spent half the mobile slot talking about kernel :)16:46
apwttx, thanks for the heads up.  that driver looks a bit broken to my eye ... will get it reported upstream etc16:46
slangasekany other questions for the kernel team?16:46
slangasek[TOPIC] Server Team16:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Server Team16:47
slangasekapw: thanks16:47
ttxI updated Server release status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus16:47
ttxThe likewise-open5 targeted bug we had was fixed for alpha416:47
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus16:47
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus16:47
ttxWe expect to land Eucalyptus 1.6 early next week... that should allow finalization of a lot of specs16:48
slangasekdoes that mean all the MIRs for eucalyptus are also done by next week?16:48
slangasekor is that landing in universe only?16:48
ttxslangasek: in universe. MIR effort is in progress16:48
slangasekany ETA for having the MIRs all done16:48
ttxslangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages tracks that effort16:49
slangasek(are they all filed?)16:49
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages16:49
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EucalyptusInMainSpec/Packages16:49
ttxslangasek: 43 of them are ready for review yes16:49
ttxover a total of 6016:49
ttxrather than filing individual MIRs, we decided to track exceptions to the regular simple no-brainers16:50
cjwatsonttx: FWIW http://paste.ubuntu.com/253220/ is the current eucalyptus installer patch I have; still a WIP16:50
cjwatsonoops, sorry, meant that to be a /msg but I don't suppose it matters16:50
ttxcjwatson: ideally we would find a way to test it without all MIR finalized16:50
cjwatsonthat's easy16:51
ttxso that landing is without surprise16:51
cjwatsonthe installer can install stuff from universe16:51
ttxah :)16:51
cjwatsonbut I'm off all next week so it may be tricky16:51
=== imlad is now known as imlad|away
ttxcjwatson: heh16:51
ttxsounds like something we would land the next week anyway16:52
ttxany other questions ?16:52
slangasekmdz had to step out, but asked me to do a status check on EUC/EC2 publishing changes for alpha-4 that he's requested by email16:52
mdz(I'm here for the next 7 minutes)16:52
slangasek08:10 <mdz> testing/karmic/alpha4 tweak (slangasek)16:52
slangasek08:10 <mdz> AWS page (smoser)16:52
slangasek08:10 <mdz> HEADER.html (smoser, update in #server)16:52
slangasek08:11 <mdz> UEC setup doc (soren)16:52
slangasekmine I just saw in email before the meeting; I'll follow up shortly after we're done here16:53
mdzHEADER.html looks good now, smoser made a few further tweaks to pretty it up16:53
slangasekI saw smoser had a draft HEADER.html which looked good, right, guess that's live now16:53
mdzI don't know the status of the AWS page, and I believe smoser had to step out16:53
mdzsoren: can you speak to the UEC/Eucalyptus setup doc?16:53
ttxmdz: soren is out as well.16:54
mdzttx: could you follow up with them on these items for me?16:54
mdzttx: I'll forward you a copy of the email thread if you like16:54
ttxmdz: i will. Please forward the thread my way.16:54
slangasek[ACTION] ttx to follow up with soren, smoser regarding AWS page and UEC setup doc for mdz16:54
MootBotACTION received:  ttx to follow up with soren, smoser regarding AWS page and UEC setup doc for mdz16:54
slangasekanything else for the server team?16:55
mdzttx: thanks16:55
ScottKslangasek: It'd be good to get clamav copied to jaunty-updates16:55
ScottKI'm waiting that for updating the backports.16:55
slangasekScottK: I've got a bit of SRU processing to catch up on, covering for pitti while he's out; I'll have a look this afternoon16:56
slangasek[TOPIC] Foundations Team16:56
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations Team16:56
slangasekttx: thanks16:56
* ttx disappears16:56
slangasekcjwatson: hi16:57
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:58
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:58
cjwatsonwe have a slight increase in our high-priority bug pile, but I think they're mostly under control16:58
cjwatsonmostly we have spec fever16:58
cjwatsoncloud setup is running late but (now) under control we think16:58
cjwatsonzsync is late and may end up in a PPA16:58
cjwatson(given that it has LP requirements anyway)16:58
cjwatsona few things are waiting for mvo to get back from paternity leave before we know whether they need to be deferred or not16:59
cjwatson(though those are medium-priority)16:59
cjwatsonand the python packaging stuff we already discussed above17:00
cjwatsonslangasek: how late can multiarch feasibly be pushed without risking quality problems?17:00
slangasekcjwatson: IMHO we can go at least as late as alpha5 (a week past feature freeze) for the package manager bits without problems; much later than that and I would have to start worrying17:02
cjwatsonmm, our release status page currently has it at alpha617:02
cjwatsonfeel free to edit :-)17:02
slangasekyeah, will do17:03
robbiewwell it would be delivered in alpha 617:03
robbiewif it's a week past alpha 517:03
slangasekrobbiew: a week past feature freeze == alpha 5; probably not past alpha 517:03
slangasek(I'm revising my earlier opinion based on the rate of dpkg development, here)17:03
robbiewah, right17:03
slangasekstatus looks good to me, otherwise (and about as I expected :)17:05
slangasekanything else for Foundations?17:05
slangasek[TOPIC] MOTU17:06
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU17:06
slangasekcjwatson, robbiew: thanks17:06
slangasekScottK: I see from the mailing list that there's been motu-release activity17:06
ScottKWe now have a full team and are getting organized17:07
* slangasek nods17:07
ScottKNo progress on the listed bugs.17:07
ScottKAFAIK our ocaml and ghc6 transitions are moving along.17:08
slangasekactually, 399013 seems to be fixed now, I failed to check that status before the meeting17:08
slangasekso that's good. :)17:08
ScottKNothing else to report I don't think17:08
slangasekany areas that you think we should be throwing more manpower at?17:08
slangasekI've been hitting the NBS list hard this week, there's still a lot to churn through17:09
ScottKI need to think about that.17:09
ScottKI did a little bit of followup with some people on it.17:09
ScottKboost is done as soon as you punt 1.35 out of the archive.17:09
slangasekarchive uninstallables / FTBFS probably need some attention after that17:09
slangasekexcellent \o/17:09
ScottKThere are two rdepends left but they are broken for other reasons so lacking boost1.35 doesn't make them worse.17:10
ScottKI kicked off a huge stack of armel rebuilds yesterday and they are mostly working.17:10
ScottKSo that'll help some.17:10
ScottKI'd need to think about where to focus more manpower.17:10
ScottKRuby seems somewhat broken.17:11
ScottKrails FTBFS and I didn't have a chance to look into it yet17:11
ScottKI need to run, so I'll try to get back to you after I've looked things over a bit.17:12
slangasekok, thanks for the update17:12
slangasek[TOPIC] ISO size17:13
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO size17:13
slangasekI poked a couple of comments into the agenda about this, which probably speak for themselves17:13
slangasekwe had to drop some more langpacks from the CDs to make everything fit for alpha-4, so that's not happy17:13
slangasekand part of this was because gnome-bluetooth landed, for a size of around 400K (incl. dependencies) rather than the ~120K we had for bluez-gnome17:14
slangasekas part of this, we now have two separate obex servers on the CD because different things depend on different implementations :(17:14
slangasekso there's some duplication cleanup to be done there, definitely17:14
slangasekanyone else know of things we should be targeting to get off the CDs?17:15
slangasekok, something to think about as we go, as usual :)17:16
slangasekanything else before we break?17:16
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:17.17:17
slangasekthanks, all17:17
apwthanks slangasek17:17
=== fader is now known as fader|lunch
=== fader|lunch is now known as fader
=== ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007
=== [1]superbenny is now known as superbenny
=== [1]superbenny is now known as superbenny
=== fader is now known as fader|away

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