[13:50] <InDuS> hi i hope iam not gatecrashing
[13:50] <InDuS> who can tell me how i can become an ubuntu member
[13:50] <czajkowski> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[13:51] <czajkowski> InDuS: either of those links should help you out
[13:51] <InDuS> ok i did all that
[13:51] <InDuS> so i was told to come here after those
[13:51] <InDuS> i created my page etc
[13:52] <InDuS> also, i promote foss in my country etc
[13:53] <InDuS> that membership page says to apply in there ,but i cant find any links to do so
[13:54] <GrueMaster> There is an ubuntu-mobile meeting scheduled to start in 6 minutes.  You can bring it up during that meeting, when it is time for new business.
[13:54] <InDuS> ubuntu-mobile meeting? hmm whats that about?
[13:55] <GrueMaster> Stick around and find out.
[13:55] <InDuS> ok
[13:55] <czajkowski> InDuS: please see pm or come into #ubuntu-locoteams
[13:59] <lool> Hey all
[14:00] <lool> NCommander: Around?
[14:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
[14:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:00] <NCommander> lool, yes, I'm just kinda noe feeling very good
[14:00] <lool> dyfet, persia, paulliu, ogra, plars: ping
[14:00] <plars> GrueMaster: I think he's talking general membership, not just mobile
[14:00]  * plars is here
[14:00] <ogra> poop
[14:00] <lool> poop yourself!
[14:00] <ogra> :)
[14:00] <paulliu> lool, hi
[14:01]  * GrueMaster props eyes open with toothpicks.
[14:01]  * NCommander snores loadly
[14:01] <NCommander> ok
[14:01] <GrueMaster> loadly?
[14:01] <StevenK> Apparently NCommander is loaded
[14:01] <ogra> better than yodely
[14:02] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811?action=edit&editor=text
[14:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811?action=edit&editor=text
[14:02] <lool> NCommander: I added a couple of entries to the roadmap which I'll explain when we get there
[14:02] <lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811
[14:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090811
[14:02] <NCommander> oh
[14:02] <NCommander> thanks
[14:02] <plars> better
[14:02] <plars> :)
[14:02] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[14:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[14:02] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[14:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[14:03] <NCommander> c/o yet again, this bug is up for grabs if anyone wants it
[14:03] <lool> NCommander: What needs to happen so that you can make progress on it?
[14:03] <lool> I think it's basically calling for a merge
[14:03] <NCommander> lool, time, its not a trivial merge
[14:04] <lool> Ok
[14:04] <NCommander> lool, it requires sucking in the X11 headers, and it isn;'t very clear how it comes together
[14:04] <NCommander> [topic] !GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[14:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  !GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[14:04] <GrueMaster> This requires me setting up my CrownBeach again.  Very low priority (unless someone says otherwise).
[14:05]  * NCommander wonders if we should just remove it from the list
[14:05] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
[14:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[14:05] <lool> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
[14:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~lool/mobile-status.html
[14:06] <NCommander> Thank you lool
[14:06] <ogra> outdated !
[14:06] <NCommander> that too
[14:06] <lool> ogra: Is it really?
[14:06] <lool> ogra: Which spec?
[14:06]  * NCommander had status changes last night ...
[14:07] <ogra> both of mine i updated status this morning
[14:07] <ogra> you should really run the update before the meeting
[14:07] <NCommander> [topic] lool's status
[14:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool's status
[14:08] <ogra> outdated :P
[14:08] <lool> ogra: Oh right, I'm still running the generation daily and pushing more frequently
[14:08] <lool> Pushing an updated one
[14:08] <lool> done
[14:08] <ogra> thanks
[14:08] <lool> NCommander: I think we wanted to ultimately drop per people status
[14:09] <lool> Ok now we have this page with the status of each spec as reported by each owner
[14:09] <ogra> hmm, it doesnt respect linewraps in the Status entry
[14:09] <lool> The idea is that everybody opens it, takes a look and asks any question
[14:09]  * ogra needs to take that into account
[14:09]  * NCommander much perfered us just giving a quick status line each meeting but ok ...
[14:10] <plars> I have a question about https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds
[14:10] <lool> I actually started writing real code to my cloud builder, but it's not dong anything useful yet
[14:10] <lool> Oh good timing
[14:10] <plars> haha
[14:11] <lool> plars: So I kept deferring work on it, but I really believe it's useful and I started architecting the source code and playing with boto code samples
[14:11] <plars> lool: cool, so that answers my first question of "is this expected to happen this cycle?"
[14:11] <lool> But it doesn't advance the spec significantly
[14:11] <lool> I'll update it when I have a first pass to push
[14:11] <lool> I expect the first thing will be creating a couple of vms and tracking their status in a local sqlite
[14:11] <plars> lool: the spec says approved, but there are not valid work items on the whiteboard, so I was kinda confused by what kind of shape it was in
[14:11] <lool> And start/stop basically
[14:12] <lool> plars: Hmm good point I need to add valid work items to that one; I forgot about it when it got off the list of specs in error
[14:12] <lool> plars: Thanks for pointing it out, I'll document them
[14:12] <lool> Hmm nobody told me but the counts in the second column are wrong too
[14:12] <lool> I need to fix my SQL
[14:13] <ogra> i have one about softbootloader: i had a task to review the softbootloader spec, lool nicely reminded me of that today, i looked at it but the UDS discussion was never merged or taken into account it seems, there are external and team internal action items listed in the BOF discussion, what happens to them ?
[14:13] <lool> ogra: I guess we list them all as work items and the spec owner is in charge of proding the other people to make progress on them
[14:13] <ogra> quite late for that imho
[14:13] <NCommander> ogra, the way we discussed at UDS, and what happened in reality went in two very separate directions. I need to rewrite the spec to match reality (or change reality to match UDS)
[14:14] <ogra> right, thats clear, what wasnt clear to me were the four action items that even have personal assignments at the bottom of the BOF discussion
[14:14] <lool> ogra: I hate the fact that this spec got deferred from jaunty and we actually would have benefited from it in a couple of cases already
[14:15] <ogra> yes, indeed
[14:15] <ogra> and i'm happy to research my action item, but it showed never up on my todo list
[14:15] <lool> ogra: That said during the sprint I sat down with NCommander to document actual work items in the wb
[14:16] <lool> I'm not sure you have one in that list
[14:16] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to redraft softbootloader spec to make it match reality and clear up action item list
[14:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to redraft softbootloader spec to make it match reality and clear up action item list
[14:16] <lool> NCommander: Thanks
[14:16] <ogra> lool, because the spec was never updated with the discussion notes from last UDS
[14:16] <lool> Are there other questions on the status of specs?  Everybody done digesting?
[14:17] <NCommander> lool, are you going to be around in say an hour to help merge the d-cd code and stuff?
[14:17] <GrueMaster> what's the scoop on mobile-karmic-moblin-remix?
[14:17] <lool> NCommander: I have meetings all afternoon
[14:17] <NCommander> lool, bugger
[14:17] <lool> NCommander: I accepted the task on monday and will do it sometime this week
[14:17] <NCommander> ogra, how about you?
[14:17] <ogra> lool, did you talk to tbm ?
[14:17] <lool> But I cant be bothered to do it right now
[14:17] <lool> ogra: No
[14:17] <NCommander> lool, right, I understand, I'd just like to nip this in the bud
[14:17] <ogra> NCommander, thats only adding the two new files, right ?
[14:18] <lool> People might remember me calling them the whole of yesterday too?   :)
[14:18] <ogra> fine to merge that if it doesnt touch other code
[14:18] <NCommander> ogra, two new files, and then a modification to make-web-indices to add the dove
[14:18] <lool> Me being davidm's fallback means my number of meetings basically doubled
[14:18] <ogra> wasnt that already there ?
[14:18] <ogra> i'll look at it
[14:18] <lool> ogra: The idea was of course to review the actual image creation script
[14:19] <ogra> lool, indeed
[14:19] <NCommander> ogra, very cool. I am expecting dove squashfs's to build (they almost built yesterday so ...)
[14:19] <ogra> i took a glance on the weekend already
[14:19] <ogra> build is in progress
[14:19] <lool> NCommander: You actually pasted a meeting URL from Aug 11th at the beginning of the meeting instead of today's
[14:19] <NCommander> I need to poke the kernel team though on the dove .config; I think initramfs support fell off
[14:19] <lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090825 is the proper one
[14:19] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090825 is the proper one
[14:19] <NCommander> lool, >.<;
[14:20] <NCommander> lool, sorry, I'm suffering from a massive migrane at the moment and the world kinda fuzzy
[14:20] <lool> I'm removing the crap in the wiki page too
[14:20] <lool> NCommander: Hmm why is there no entry to review roadmap stuff?
[14:21] <lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[14:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[14:21] <lool> I dumped a couple of things on this page, it looks ugly -- I know
[14:21] <NCommander> lool, I thought we stopped using that
[14:21] <lool> What I'd like us to do is to periodically check we didn't miss any desktop seeds updates
[14:21] <lool> or aren't missing any UNR upstream release
[14:21] <StevenK> I have been
[14:21] <StevenK> I also do that
[14:22] <lool> StevenK: Ok, so status is that we're all up-to-date and can close this topic?
[14:22] <StevenK> lool: When my u-n-r-d-s gets uploaded, yes
[14:22] <lool> StevenK: (I added these entries due to critics on missing desktop features in UNR; I expect it will disappear once we move this to the integration meeting)
[14:22] <lool> StevenK: Ok, so just pending an u-n-r-d-s upload; thanks
[14:22] <GrueMaster> Has gwibber been added to the seed yet?  How about removing xscreensaver-gl?
[14:23] <StevenK> Yes, but it won't appear
[14:23] <lool> GrueMaster: We're waiting for a new gwibber, 2.0, so that we can promote the new one to main
[14:23] <StevenK> gwibber is in universe
[14:23] <GrueMaster> ah
[14:23] <GrueMaster> ETA?
[14:23] <lool> StevenK: I'm fearing this might not make it before FF  :-/
[14:23] <lool> GrueMaster: It's in the hands of Ken van Dine
[14:24] <ogra> well, thats what we have an exception process for
[14:24] <lool> I'd like us to take a glance at high importance bugs
[14:24] <lool> Starting with UNR
[14:24] <lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-unr
[14:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-unr
[14:24] <lool> StevenK: 417001 is the one you're about to upload, right?
[14:24] <StevenK> lool: Right
[14:25] <StevenK> lool: I wasn't going to close it until FUSA is sorted out
[14:25] <lool> StevenK: Isn't LP #410655 fixed with new clutk?
[14:25] <ogra> new FUSA landed today btw
[14:25] <lool> StevenK: Ok fair enough
[14:25] <ogra> "indicator-session"
[14:25] <StevenK> lool: Not sure, it looks like a different stacktrace
[14:25] <lool> StevenK: Ok; can you make sure you track this with njpatel before A5?
[14:26] <StevenK> Right
[14:26] <lool> armel bugs next I guess
[14:26] <lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
[14:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
[14:26] <lool> ogra: How goes with 417009?
[14:26] <lool> oo.o
[14:26] <ogra> i didnt contact mterry yet ... we only discussed it last night
[14:26] <lool> Ok
[14:26] <ogra> will do so after them meeting assuming he is up now
[14:27] <njpatel> lool: StevenK: I'm working on that...it's a bit strange
[14:27] <lool> ogra: tomboy?  391124
[14:27] <StevenK> njpatel: Ah, nice
[14:27] <lool> njpatel: Thanks for the update; can you assign yourself to the bug?
[14:27] <njpatel> will do
[14:27] <ogra> well, seems like its deeper down in the mono stack and i'd really like to know what dyfet found
[14:27] <ogra> since he said he dug deep into mono and found issues during his banshee research
[14:28] <lool> ogra: It looks like dyfet isnt around though (probably sick); if you have spare cycles to chase this it might be clever to start on it
[14:28] <lool> 391588 I'll skip since it's both non-critical and assignde to dyget
[14:28] <lool> *dyfet
[14:28] <ogra> well, someone from the mono team asked for another debug output today
[14:28] <ogra> i added that
[14:28] <lool> 383240 is mine; I suck, it's been assigned to me for weeks but I didn't find a large enough slot to just do it
[14:29] <lool> 385325 is blocked on clarifying the plan with asac
[14:29] <ogra> there is a plan for karmic ?
[14:29] <GrueMaster> I'm surprised Bug #418265 didn't show up on the list.
[14:29] <ogra> i thought we'd just update to new upstream
[14:29] <ogra> 2.6.31-5-imx51"
[14:29] <ogra> ?
[14:29] <ogra> thats totally not buggable
[14:30] <StevenK> GrueMaster: Is ubuntu-armel subscribed to the bug?
[14:30] <ogra> close it as invalid and wait for a proper kernel
[14:30] <GrueMaster> yes
[14:30] <StevenK> GrueMaster: If the team isn't, thqat
[14:30]  * StevenK sighs at this keyboard
[14:30] <lool> GrueMaster: Only karmic targetted bugs show up there
[14:30] <GrueMaster> ah
[14:30] <ogra> well, but please ignore imx51 kernels that dont have a 100 in the ABI
[14:31] <GrueMaster> This was on Friday's image.
[14:31] <lool> GrueMaster: source package is linux-fsl-imx51, not linux
[14:31] <ogra> everything before that is missing about 130 patches
[14:31] <lool> targeted at karmic now
[14:31] <ogra> lool, not for 2.6.31-5-imx51 ...
[14:31] <lool> Sure enough it shows up on the list now
[14:31] <ogra> there linux is right
[14:31] <lool> GrueMaster: Can you please retest with latest kernel from linux-fsl-imx51?
[14:31] <lool> Should have a >100 ABI
[14:32] <ogra> marked as invalid
[14:32] <GrueMaster> If it is in the latest image, sure.
[14:32] <lool> GrueMaster: It is
[14:32] <ogra> there are *no fsl patches at all* in 2.6.31-5-imx51 only one that enables the basics
[14:32] <lool> ogra: I'd rather call it incomplete
[14:32] <lool> anyway
[14:32] <ogra> no
[14:33] <lool> doesn't matter, needs retesting and can be reopened
[14:33] <ogra> right
[14:33] <lool> Next week is A5
[14:33] <lool> [link] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/karmic-alpha-5
[14:33] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/karmic-alpha-5
[14:33] <lool> Specs targetted there are the toolchain one (will change just after A5)
[14:34] <lool> Support for Ubuntu Desktop on Freescale SoCs ; should be ok
[14:34] <lool> Support for Ubuntu Desktop on Marvell SoCs ; pending a debian-cd merge and I'd expect final fixes
[14:34] <lool> NCommander: Do we have instructions in testing the marvell images?
[14:35] <NCommander> lool, our kernel lacks initramfs support ATM (found that out last night), so even when we get images, they are unbootable out of the box
[14:35] <lool> NCommander: Which bug is that?
[14:35] <NCommander> lool, I'm filing one now, since I just confirmed that was the issue about 10 minutes ago
[14:35] <lool> NCommander: This is critical to A5; please file + milestone + ping rtg + amitk + bjf
[14:36] <lool> NCommander: Action on you to document testing instructions?
[14:36] <lool> Since we dont have a custom uboot on the boards
[14:36] <lool> GrueMaster: Determine if any default applications should be changed in UNR
[14:36] <lool> GrueMaster: It looks like it's not going to make A5 given the number of open actions
[14:36] <NCommander> [action] Document livecd bringup for the dove boards
[14:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Document livecd bringup for the dove boards
[14:36] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to ocument livecd bringup for the dove boards
[14:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to ocument livecd bringup for the dove boards
[14:36] <lool> GrueMaster: The only item there for you is the CD image size work
[14:37] <lool> GrueMaster: But I think it would be good if you'd personally chase people to implement the actions
[14:37] <lool> aka nag  :)
[14:37] <StevenK> Which I'm still waiting on
[14:37] <GrueMaster> I can't really do that until the other two items are done.
[14:37] <lool> GrueMaster: We all know you're good at nagging us  :)
[14:38] <GrueMaster> Ok then.  StevenK, NAG - get on removing the xscreensaver-gl and other items on your TODO list.
[14:38] <ogra> rss-glx too
[14:38] <lool> StevenK: You have action to drop xscreensaver stuff from the seed and to add gwibber to maximus blacklist; do you think you could do that this week?
[14:38] <GrueMaster> Is there any reason not to seed gwibber before 2.0?
[14:38] <ogra> thats way bigger iirc
[14:38] <StevenK> It is seeded!
[14:38] <lool> GrueMaster: Yes, that requires main promotion of stuff which we're not going to need
[14:39] <lool> so useless work  :-/
[14:39] <StevenK> It's in the seed list, but germinate won't check universe
[14:39] <StevenK> So there's no point asking me twice to seed it
[14:39] <lool> Well ok, it's in the seed text but not in the task
[14:39] <lool> What we need is promoting it to main when 2.0 comes out
[14:39] <lool> StevenK: Do we want a new action to do that in the work items?
[14:40] <StevenK> Yeah
[14:40] <StevenK> I'd like a pointer to the spec, too
[14:40] <lool> StevenK: added
[14:40] <NCommander> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bug/418618
[14:40] <lool> StevenK: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-applications
[14:40] <GrueMaster> Since the size reduction work won't involve desktop application removal, but mostly back-end stuff, it can wait until gwibber 2.0 is on board.
[14:41] <lool> [link] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-applications even
[14:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-applications even
[14:41] <lool> GrueMaster: I dont understand why it should wait?
[14:41] <lool> GrueMaster: we want to start getting the ISO size down before we add more stuff to it IMO
[14:41] <lool> It's already too large and we plan adding gwibber
[14:42] <lool> That calls for making room now for the oversize + gwibber's size
[14:42] <GrueMaster> So that I know what my goal for size reduction is.  Otherwise I may need to do that work twice.
[14:42] <StevenK> Size reduction may be ongoing
[14:42] <StevenK> It certainly is for the desktop
[14:42] <lool> GrueMaster: You want to get below 700 MB to start with and preferably way more; all space saved allows for more langpacks
[14:42] <GrueMaster> ok
[14:42] <StevenK> So don't count on only doing it once, things change
[14:43] <lool> GrueMaster: If you dont know where to start, slangasek has been taking care of ISO size of the desktop
[14:43] <lool> and others
[14:43] <GrueMaster> ok
[14:43] <lool> GrueMaster: So it might have good advice on where to start looking
[14:43] <lool> s/it/he
[14:44] <GrueMaster> I figure I'd start by diffing the manifests.
[14:44] <ogra> heh
[14:44] <ogra> calling slangasek an "it" is rude :P
[14:44] <lool> Ok any other things to discuss on A5 tasks?
[14:44] <lool> blueprints or bugs
[14:44] <lool> ogra: Yes; typoi  :-(
[14:44] <ogra> indeed
[14:45] <lool> I guess we're done
[14:45] <lool> NCommander: Any other topic for today?
[14:45] <NCommander> [topic] Any other business
[14:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[14:45] <NCommander> going once
[14:45] <NCommander> twice
[14:45] <NCommander> three times
[14:45] <lool> I'd like to ask for feedback
[14:45] <lool> Are people okay with the meeting changes?
[14:46] <lool> As experienced today
[14:46] <StevenK> My internal jury is still out
[14:46] <ogra> and i'd like everyone who finds some spare time to regularyx look at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/
[14:46] <NCommander> I personally perfer going around individually and asking status, then have the open discussion
[14:46] <GrueMaster> Well, we're done quicker.
[14:46] <NCommander> GrueMaster, not really
[14:46] <lool> ogra: We could review this if there was an associated timestamp with the FTBFSes
[14:46] <plars> well, we didn't go over, and we're not close to it
[14:46] <ogra> there is still a lot armel stuff that can be fixed ...
[14:47] <lool> ogra: Currently the list doesn't show the recent versus old ones
[14:47] <ogra> lool, well, its always the latest upload
[14:47] <ogra> only pointing to the FTBFS logs
[14:47] <NCommander> ogra, it doesn't show packages that FTBFS in jaunty that haven't had a karmic upload
[14:47] <lool> ogra: No, I mean we want to look at the recent FTBFS, not all of them, during weekly meetings
[14:48] <lool> NCommander: I think it was quicker to do things the way we did and carries the same information
[14:48] <ogra> well, that would require to intersect -changes with the versions showing up there
[14:48] <lool> Except people can a) do it before the meeting and b) people can do it async
[14:48] <NCommander> lool, *shrug*
[14:48] <NCommander> Anyone got anything else?
[14:48] <NCommander> I'd like to close the meeting
[14:48]  * ogra likes the new meeting form btw
[14:48] <lool> ogra: No; just keeping track of when the FTBFS was added to this page
[14:48] <ogra> though it requires that you prepare indeed
[14:49] <NCommander> If there's nothing else
[14:49] <NCommander> Going once
[14:49] <lool> I guess we're done
[14:49] <StevenK> And re-run the generation script :-P
[14:49] <NCommander> twice
[14:49] <ogra> StevenK, ++
[14:49] <lool> StevenK: I switched to @hourly already now
[14:49] <NCommander> three times
[14:49] <NCommander> StevenK, ++ :-)
[14:49] <NCommander> Ok
[14:49] <NCommander> everyone have a good $TIME
[14:49] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[14:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:49.
[14:51] <paulliu> GrueMaster: Just as same as the Juanty Moblin.
[14:51] <GrueMaster> ?
[15:02] <cjwatson> mdz,Keybuk: TB now?
[15:02] <Keybuk> cjwatson: if you like ;)
[15:02] <Keybuk> you're the chair I believe
[15:03] <mdz> cjwatson: hi
[15:03] <cjwatson> I do hope not, I chaired last time
[15:04] <cjwatson> we said we'd decide the chair by e-mail and then I think forgot to do so
[15:04] <cjwatson> by rotation I make it Keybuk's turn
[15:04] <Keybuk> ok
[15:04] <Keybuk> #startmeeting
[15:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:04. The chair is Keybuk.
[15:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:05] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader application: Yulia Novozhilova (MC mail)
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader application: Yulia Novozhilova (MC mail)
[15:05] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-August/002183.html
[15:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-August/002183.html
[15:05] <mdz> any actions to review from last time?
[15:05] <cjwatson> there were several
[15:05] <cjwatson> Keybuk: do you have them conveniently available?
[15:05] <cjwatson> (I do, I think)
[15:06] <Keybuk> cjwatson: err, I don't think so
[15:06] <mdz> oh, dholbach said t hat Yulia had to leave early, so we should do that first
[15:06] <cjwatson> oh, ok
[15:06] <mdz> ignore me
[15:06] <cjwatson> /ignore mdz
[15:06] <juli_> hi, I'm Yulia:)
[15:06] <cjwatson> (maybe not)
[15:06] <Keybuk> cjwatson: really? I have to unignore him for these meetings <g>
[15:06] <Keybuk> juli_: hi!  was just trying to find your IRC nickname
[15:06] <Keybuk> welcome
[15:06] <juli_> I do really have to leave early
[15:06] <mdz> the packages involved are:
[15:06] <mdz> # netbeans
[15:06] <mdz> # libnb-platform-java
[15:06] <mdz> # libnb-javaparser-java
[15:06] <mdz> # libnb-svnclientadapter-java
[15:07] <mdz> all of these packages are in universe, and the MOTU Council approves
[15:07] <Keybuk> juli_: it looks like you've been the defacto maintainer of these packages for a while now
[15:07] <juli_> Keybuk, yes.. i'm working on them more than a year
[15:08] <Keybuk> in fact, I believe you created a couple of these?
[15:08] <juli_> hmm... no. I updated them. but I created another:)
[15:09] <Keybuk> juli_: who've you been working with to upload these packages?
[15:09] <Keybuk> juli_: has anybody else been helping you out with them?
[15:09] <juli_> parsia helped a lot
[15:09] <mdz> (persia?)
[15:10] <juli_> the other sponsored my updates
[15:10] <juli_> Emmet Hikory
[15:10] <cjwatson> juli_: various people, including you, commented on the small number of people involved in Java packaging, and this has been a problem for some time. How do you think we could improve this? For example, are there ways that the "grunt work" of the packaging could be simplified to make it easier for people to focus on more significant improvements?
[15:11] <cjwatson> or is it just a fundamental mindset difference, that most of the people who develop in Java don't do so by way of system-provided packages?
[15:12] <juli_> for me the biggest problem was to find sponsors and to read and remember a huge amount of information about packaging and ubuntu processes
[15:12] <cjwatson> (FWIW I don't see any problem with this application but figured you might have some thoughts on this while you're here; we could take the discussion to a different forum later if you're really rushed)
[15:13] <juli_> so I believe if we have more java-experienced MOTUs everything will be ok with java-team
[15:13] <cjwatson> mm, it doesn't help when people have to load state about a whole different environment into their heads in order to sponsor
[15:14] <Keybuk> mdz: any questions ?
[15:14] <mdz> Keybuk: none
[15:15] <Keybuk> cjwatson: any further questions?
[15:15] <juli_> cjwatson, ok, lets talk later about java-team... another problem is my slow typing, so I believe we'll talk later if you don't mind
[15:16] <Keybuk> -ETIMEOUT ;)
[15:16] <Keybuk> [VOTE] Per-package uploader application: Yulia Novozhilova
[15:16] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Per-package uploader application: Yulia Novozhilova.
[15:16] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:16] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:17] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[15:17] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:17] <mdz> +1 MOTU council approval for universe is plenty for me
[15:17] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:17] <Keybuk> cjwatson: ?
[15:17] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ?
[15:17] <cjwatson> +1
[15:17] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:17] <sabdfl> +1
[15:17] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:17] <Keybuk> #endvote
[15:17] <mdz> [ENDVOTE]
[15:17] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[15:17] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[15:17] <cjwatson> sorry, was in another window, my browser crashed at an inopportune time
[15:17] <Keybuk> #hatemootbot
[15:17] <cjwatson> juli_: yes, no problem :)
[15:18] <dholbach> congratulations juli_!
[15:18] <Keybuk> juli_: congratulations
[15:18] <cjwatson> I'll implement the changes
[15:18] <Keybuk> mdz, cjwatson: which one of you wants to do the necessary LP twiddle?
[15:18] <sabdfl> congrats juli_
[15:18] <mdz> juli_: thanks for your work, and congratulations
[15:18] <Keybuk> ok great
[15:18] <mdz> Keybuk: cjwatson will
[15:18] <juli_> cjwatson, I'll find you on ubuntu-motu
[15:18] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to add per-package upload rights for juli_
[15:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to add per-package upload rights for juli_
[15:18] <juli_> thanks all!
[15:18] <cjwatson> juli_: ay
[15:18] <cjwatson> aye
[15:18] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader application: Andy Whitcroft
[15:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader application: Andy Whitcroft
[15:18] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-August/002184.html
[15:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-August/002184.html
[15:18] <Keybuk> apw warned me that he might not be able to make it today
[15:19] <Keybuk> does anybody have any questions they'd like to ask, or would TB members be happy to approve in his absence based on the MC mail?
[15:19] <dholbach> yeah, he's on holidays - sorry for that
[15:19] <mdz> reading
[15:20] <Keybuk> I'd obviously like to talk to rtg, to make sure he's not being suspiciously stalked by buses
[15:20] <mdz> I think apw has more experience with packaging at this point than rtg does
[15:20] <Keybuk> but from my POV, the kernel team members and lead have fully endorsed him, and post-reorg it would be their decision anyway, so I'm happy to simply ACK it
[15:21] <Keybuk> plus, hell, it's apw!  He makes kernel images for me with random patches I chuck him!
[15:22] <cjwatson> I'm obviously content since I put my rubber stamp on his proposal page already; in particular I'm pleased to see that, while he may not be a pre-existing packaging expert, he's really got his teeth into that in addition to the normal kernel work he does
[15:22] <sabdfl> are we drawing a line between "folks who commit to the kernel branches" and "folks who upload"?
[15:22] <cjwatson> the automatic daily builds are another cool thing
[15:22] <sabdfl> afaik apw has no other packaging experience
[15:22] <cjwatson> sabdfl: he already commits
[15:22] <mdz> I'm a bit concerned because I think there is a shortage of packaging expertise in the kernel team, so I'm glad to see Andy stepping up and doing the work that he has done
[15:22] <sabdfl> sure, all the kernel team do
[15:22] <cjwatson> he doesn't, but I've reviewed the packaging changes he's made and they have been very good
[15:22] <sabdfl> i'm asking if we want to separate between branch commit and upload
[15:22] <Keybuk> sabdfl: yes, there's a large number of other people who commit - but in apw's cases, he's the guy who's largely doing the packaging anyway
[15:23] <sabdfl> cjwatson: and you're referring to the packaging pieces specifically?
[15:23] <sabdfl> ok
[15:23] <cjwatson> yes
[15:23] <cjwatson> they're the only bits of his kernel work I'm qualified to review :)
[15:23] <Keybuk> sounds like we're happy to vote in his absence
[15:23] <Keybuk> so
[15:23] <cjwatson> I think we *do* want to separate between branch commit and upload, yes
[15:23] <Keybuk> [VOTE] Per-package uploader application: Andy Whitcroft
[15:23] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Per-package uploader application: Andy Whitcroft.
[15:23] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:23] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:23] <cjwatson> I think that Andy should be on the RHS of that separation
[15:23] <Keybuk> (putting aside the archive-reorg issue of distinguishing between branch commit and upload for a bit)
[15:24] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:24] <sabdfl> ok. i'm happier if we can show that not all kernel committers have upload, and more importantly, employment on the canonical kernel team doesn't == kernel package upload
[15:24] <mdz> yes, reading the changes, apw has been doing a substantial amount of proper packaging work on the kernel package
[15:24] <sabdfl> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:24] <mdz> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:24] <cjwatson> sabdfl: right, it most certainly doesn't - we can see that because it's taken quite a bit of work for each new Canonical kernel team member to get as far as upload privileges for the kernel
[15:24] <cjwatson> +1
[15:24] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:24] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[15:24] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[15:24] <Keybuk> apw: congratulations
[15:25] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to add upload privilege for apw
[15:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to add upload privilege for apw
[15:25] <cjwatson> underway
[15:25] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions
[15:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions
[15:25] <cjwatson> (will migrate this over to a kernel package set as soon as I can, it's a little unwieldy ...)
[15:25] <Keybuk> jono has outstanding actions but is on holiday
[15:25] <Keybuk> cjwatson: you were to update http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
[15:25] <Keybuk> is that done?
[15:25] <cjwatson> it has received basic updates to at least correct falsehoods
[15:26] <cjwatson> it still needs more work, I'm quite sure
[15:26] <Keybuk> ok
[15:26] <mdz> jono proposed a paragraph to add
[15:26] <mdz> which I sent feedback on
[15:26] <Keybuk> mdz: he did, we'll carry those over though since he's away
[15:26] <mdz> I didn't see any other responses, though; it probably needs a general ack from the team
[15:27] <Keybuk> cjwatson: any progress with the Debian TC?
[15:27] <cjwatson> hang on a second, sorry
[15:27] <cjwatson> I also sent mail to technical-board@ with a proposal for new text for that page as a whole
[15:27] <cjwatson> mdz made a brief comment on that
[15:28] <cjwatson> I am going to assume consent otherwise and post it
[15:28] <cjwatson> shout if you disagree :)
[15:28] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[15:28] <mdz> I'm happy
[15:28] <Keybuk> go for it
[15:29] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to apply further updates to http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard based on his draft new text
[15:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to apply further updates to http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard based on his draft new text
[15:29] <cjwatson> Debian TC is awaiting response from somebody on the TC
[15:29] <cjwatson> my last mail was 11 Aug
[15:29] <mdz> worth a ping
[15:29] <cjwatson> I'll send a poke
[15:29] <Keybuk> [ACTION] TB to respond to Jono's draft text on key topics review
[15:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  TB to respond to Jono's draft text on key topics review
[15:29] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to continue discussions with Debian TC
[15:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to continue discussions with Debian TC
[15:30] <Keybuk> sabdfl has created and announced the TB vote, which is currently in process
[15:30] <Keybuk> sabdfl: do we have any kind of figures of the portion of the developer community who have taken part so far? (just out of noseyness)
[15:30] <sabdfl> 78 votes cast so far, only 2 in the past few days
[15:30] <cjwatson> has everyone on this board voted? :-)
[15:30] <sabdfl> i can't see results yet though ;-)
[15:30] <sabdfl> i have
[15:31] <Keybuk> sabdfl: that's about a third of our developer base, right?
[15:31] <Keybuk> oh, no
[15:31] <sabdfl> out of 130
[15:31] <Keybuk> LP was confusing me
[15:31] <Keybuk> that's almost two thirds; which isn't bad turnout for any election
[15:31] <sabdfl> no, it's pretty good. only one person complained that the email they received wasn't gpg signed!
[15:31] <mdz> I voted; have the rest of you?
[15:32] <Keybuk> I've voted
[15:32] <cjwatson> I have
[15:32] <cjwatson> (I'm one of the 2 in the past few days)
[15:32] <mdz> should we send out a reminder  before we close it up?
[15:33] <cjwatson> if it's possible to send a reminder to those electors who have not voted, that would be good
[15:33] <Keybuk> I guess we can't tell that
[15:33] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ?
[15:35] <cjwatson> I was hoping that civs might have that facility built in
[15:35] <sabdfl> i don't believe so
[15:35] <sabdfl> there's only one button on the admin form, to end the poll
[15:35] <Keybuk> sounds like more effort than it's worth ;)
[15:35] <mdz> let's not spam everyone then
[15:35] <sabdfl> i could re-add all the same email addresses, but would prefer not to experiment with it in real time
[15:35] <sabdfl> 78 is a good result
[15:36] <Keybuk> we could always mail civs to see if it's a feature they could add in future if we plan to use it again
[15:36] <sabdfl> i'll stop the poll Monday
[15:36] <Keybuk> [ACTION] jdstrand to add a reference to the previously-approved mDNS policy (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfPolicySpec)
[15:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to add a reference to the previously-approved mDNS policy (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfPolicySpec)
[15:36] <Keybuk> jdstrand: that's not been done yet
[15:36] <cjwatson> [upload privilege changes done]
[15:37] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I added it somewhere...
[15:37]  * jdstrand goes to check
[15:37] <Keybuk> oh, you're quite right
[15:37] <Keybuk> apparently I had a cached version of that page - logging in gave me a different one
[15:38] <Keybuk> ok
[15:38] <Keybuk> end of last meeting's actions
[15:38] <Keybuk> [TOPIC]
[15:38] <MootBot> New Topic:
[15:38] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Developer membership board (ScottJamesRemnant)
[15:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Developer membership board (ScottJamesRemnant)
[15:38] <Keybuk> I've created the Launchpad team, with the appropriate membership
[15:38] <Keybuk> and I've adjusted the ubuntu-core-dev and ubuntu-dev teams
[15:38] <Keybuk> this is currently waiting on IS for creation of a new mailing list, and adjustment of the TB list
[15:38] <Keybuk> as a technical aside, the TB list will actually be renamed and a new TB list created
[15:39] <Keybuk> (to keep the current archives private while opening up the new ones)
[15:39] <Keybuk> then there are documentation updates outstanding
[15:39] <Keybuk> I'm confident that this board will be "ready to go" by the next TB meeting
[15:39] <mdz> do you have the RT ticket numbers handy?
[15:39] <mdz> cjwatson can nudge them in the next IS review
[15:39] <Keybuk> #35428 TB ML
[15:39] <Keybuk> #35429 DMB ML
[15:39] <Keybuk> James has already responded to the TB one
[15:40] <Keybuk> [ACTION] Keybuk to complete implementation of Developer Membership Board
[15:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Keybuk to complete implementation of Developer Membership Board
[15:40] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:41] <cjwatson> the majority of MOTUs have responded to the initial feelers we sent out now
[15:42] <cjwatson> I had a private bet with myself that most people would want to be generalists, and this seems to have turned out to be fairly accurate
[15:42] <cjwatson> so the developer membership board will have a good deal of work to do :-)
[15:42] <Keybuk> what's the next step?
[15:44] <mdz> cjwatson: ?
[15:45] <mdz> dholbach: ?
[15:45] <cjwatson> I'll do a final check with the Soyuz team on the details, and start pushing initial sets into LP; on the community side the next step is to start talking with the -release teams about unifying processes there
[15:45] <mdz> cjwatson: can we set a milestone to achieve by the next TB meeting?
[15:46] <Keybuk> I'm going to have to time this out
[15:46] <Keybuk> we still have several items to get through
[15:46] <mdz> agreed
[15:46] <cjwatson> let's shoot for the set of uploads that have already been approved being processed by Soyuz according to package set rules
[15:46] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:47] <Keybuk> There are currently no open bugs.
[15:47] <cjwatson> (sorry, was having an internal phrasing failure)
[15:47] <mdz> zarro boogs found
[15:47] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bugs?field.assignee=techboard
[15:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bugs?field.assignee=techboard
[15:47] <mdz> moving on
[15:47] <Keybuk> indeed
[15:47] <mdz> or...are we interested in filing bugs here to keep track of anything for ourselves?
[15:47] <mdz> I think using the agenda is working reasonably well
[15:47] <Keybuk> going to swap the next two items since one is short the other isn't
[15:47] <cjwatson> I have enough bugs
[15:47] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Drivers for Ubuntu (MattZimmerman, Curtis Hovey)
[15:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Drivers for Ubuntu (MattZimmerman, Curtis Hovey)
[15:48]  * Keybuk can't even view his LP bugs page without a timeout error
[15:48] <Keybuk> mdz: what's the progress of that?
[15:48] <sabdfl> curtis?
[15:48] <mdz> so, we now have what I hope is an authoritative explanation from the LP team about what drivers can currently do
[15:48] <sabdfl> ah
[15:48] <mdz> they are now looking for us to tell them what drivers *should* be able to do
[15:48] <mdz> there is a driver slot at the distro level and at the series level
[15:49] <Keybuk> I guess we should find out from our various teams (QA, Release, etc.) what functions they think should be sacred?
[15:49] <mdz> in <20090625132529.GY7135@alcor.net> I explained who (in Ubuntu) is responsible for the various actions drivers currently can do
[15:49] <Keybuk> we could make some up, but it might not match what they want
[15:49] <mdz> and would like to separate some of those out
[15:50] <Keybuk> mdz: what do you think the next step is?
[15:50] <mdz> e.g. sprint stuff is done by the event organizers, blueprint stuff is done by tech leads and the like
[15:50] <mdz> bug nominations are a problem all to themselves
[15:50] <mdz> Keybuk: to get consensus on how the permissions for these various things should work in Ubuntu
[15:50] <Keybuk> mdz: consensus amongst whom?
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Bug nominations
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Blueprint approvals
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Can edit all aspects of a specification
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Accepting blueprints for sprints
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Control the agenda of a sprint
[15:51] <mdz> >  * The ability to set package bug guidelines.
[15:51] <mdz> >  * The ability to set official bug tags.
[15:51] <mdz> >  * Can view and edit announcements before they are public
[15:51] <cjwatson> to be perfectly honest, splitting out blueprint permissions and then letting people with upload privileges for the relevant packages (or core developers for the whole distro) do everything else would basically work fine most of the time
[15:51] <mdz> and the ability to change arbitrary bug contacts on behalf of other people/teams
[15:51] <Keybuk> it seems that that consensus should be amongst the teams who would be given those powers
[15:51] <Keybuk> not amongst the TB members?
[15:51] <cjwatson> blueprint permissions are the main sore thumb here
[15:52] <sabdfl> the drivers idea was to have a simple model that would work for upstreams and ubuntu
[15:52] <sabdfl> but it didn't ;-)
[15:52] <mdz> Keybuk: I think we should take a view, and then make sure it's OK with everyone else
[15:52] <sabdfl> if you can think of a better, general approach that LP can take, that will be well received
[15:52] <Keybuk> mdz: ok, would you be happy to draft that view as a mail, and take this to the list
[15:52] <cjwatson> it worked for Ubuntu early on, but the project is just too complex now
[15:52] <mdz> OK
[15:52] <sabdfl> i don't think it will be well received to describe something that's *only* relevant to the distro
[15:52] <Keybuk> we have 8 minutes left and a community member waiting to discuss their topic
[15:52] <mdz> in the interest of time
[15:52] <sabdfl> except as a datapoint
[15:53] <mdz> Keybuk: I'll take the action
[15:53] <cjwatson> can I suggest, then, simply splitting up feature planning and everything else?
[15:53] <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to draft proposed ubuntu drivers scheme for consensus
[15:53] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to draft proposed ubuntu drivers scheme for consensus
[15:53] <mdz> cjwatson: do you want to draft it instead? ;-)
[15:53] <cjwatson> if you like
[15:53] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to draft proposed ubuntu drivers scheme for consensus
[15:53] <Keybuk> ;-)
[15:53] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to draft proposed ubuntu drivers scheme for consensus
[15:53] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Base-2 prefix names (BenjaminDrung)
[15:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Base-2 prefix names (BenjaminDrung)
[15:53] <Keybuk> bdrung: go
[15:53] <cjwatson> cjwatson to be plastic mdz substitute
[15:54] <mdz> cjwatson: I'll dig up the old mail and add my comments as a starting point
[15:54] <mdz> cjwatson: thank you
[15:54] <cjwatson> I have the thread, at least
[15:54] <Keybuk> cjwatson: "Emergency Holographic...", err, wait, wasn't _his_ name Zimmerman? :p
[15:54] <bdrung> starting point: http://paste.ubuntu.com/259296/
[15:54] <Keybuk> for those without the background, this is the long-running discussion about the use of units in Ubuntu
[15:55] <Keybuk> whether 1KB (kilobyte) is 1,024 bytes or 1,000 bytes, or whether it should be 1KiB (kebibyte)
[15:55] <Keybuk> we should first probably agree whether it is something we would like to have a policy on
[15:55] <mdz> (kibibyte, no?)
[15:55] <Keybuk> and if we agree that we should, what that policy would be
[15:55] <Keybuk> mdz: err, perhaps ;)
[15:55] <bdrung> the problem is how to fix the missusage of the SI standard for base-2 units ( 1 MB != 1024 KiB)
[15:56] <cjwatson> while personally I have aesthetic objections to the IEC abbreviation, it's been gaining considerable acceptance and I can't say I feel like swimming upstream against it
[15:56] <cjwatson> so better that than a total mess
[15:56] <sabdfl> if there's a standard and it's gaining momentum, let's use it
[15:56] <cjwatson> I think it's an issue of interoperability of user presentation, and thus worth having a policy on
[15:56] <Keybuk> sabdfl: the problem is that the standard isn't gaining momentum where it matters
[15:56] <sabdfl> especially if google will tell people what it means, accurately, quickly
[15:56] <mdz> I think there is real value in having the abbreviation mean something consistent
[15:56] <Keybuk> ie. in the devices people actually buy
[15:56] <cjwatson> sabdfl: right, but that's not the whole proposal :)
[15:57] <Keybuk> and, more to the point
[15:57] <Keybuk> there are *two* standards ;-)
[15:57] <cjwatson> we already know we can't use IEC abbreviations everywhere
[15:57] <bdrung> in some cases it would useful that the user could decide, if he wants IEC or SI
[15:57] <Keybuk> (in fact, there's arguably three if you could the O'Reilly Style Guide)
[15:58] <Keybuk> bdrung: ugh.  configuration.
[15:58] <Keybuk> ;)
[15:58] <cjwatson> file sizes (in the proposal) are an interesting point I really hadn't thought much about before, and it could easily go either way depending on the use case, so I do not think that the time is ripe for us to have a policy on it
[15:58] <mdz> one of the key questions, I think, is *where* we try to standardize
[15:58] <cjwatson> let's standardise where the general drift is already towards something standard
[15:58] <bdrung> i do not think, that all people agree on one basis for file sizes
[15:58] <mdz> some of the friction seems to be around established UNIXy tools, which double as end user tools and APIs
[15:59] <mdz> I think that change there may be more trouble than it's worth
[15:59] <cjwatson> and not try to standardise where there is total chaos and (perhaps more relevantly) where it isn't really of immediate importance
[15:59] <mdz> user-visible applications are a different story perhaps
[15:59] <sabdfl> this is much simpler if we say "we use that standard", propose Debian do the same, and file bugs accordingly
[15:59] <sabdfl> inevitably, those bugs will get fixed faster in the areas cjwatson describes
[15:59] <Keybuk> sabdfl: the problem is that if we, for example, say we'll always use the IEC standard
[15:59] <cjwatson> it is wrong to apply the same standard to everything, here
[15:59] <cjwatson> totally wrong
[15:59] <Keybuk> then we end up in the strange situation where we report different values for a user's DSL line speed than the ISP
[15:59] <Keybuk> (who use the SI standard)
[15:59] <cjwatson> we can apply one standard to RAM, and one standard to disk sizes
[16:00] <Keybuk> cjwatson: but then swap partitions? :p
[16:00] <mdz> sabdfl: except it's not simple, because a blanket policy runs into all sorts of places where I think there's no tangible benefit in doing so, and a lot of potential pain
[16:00] <cjwatson> but if we apply the same standard to both then we will create confusion, not address is
[16:00] <cjwatson> it
[16:00] <sabdfl> but then we have to decide in each of those cases, which takes time, and communicate changes in those decisions over time, which is a nightmare
[16:00] <cjwatson> yes, we do, and yes it's a nightmare. the alternative is even worse.
[16:00] <mdz> (we're running over into the server team's hour now)
[16:00] <sabdfl> the KB nomenclature is non-specific, fuzzy. The IEC stuff, while ugly, is at least accurate
[16:00] <Keybuk> indeed
[16:00] <cjwatson> fortunately there aren't actually that many general cases at hand
[16:00] <sabdfl> aiui
[16:00] <cjwatson> the IEC stuff is *wrong* for disks.
[16:00] <sabdfl> so, if people google it, they will be told "this is what it..". oh.
[16:00] <cjwatson> until such time as disk manufacturers get a clue :-)
[16:00] <Keybuk> sabdfl: KB isn't correct anyway - SI is kB (just a random observation)
[16:01] <Keybuk> KB for 1,024 bytes *is* O'Reilly Style Guide compliant though
[16:01] <Keybuk> (which says KB=1,024, kB=1,000)
[16:01] <sabdfl> sigh. i was not born for this discussion. i abstain.
[16:01] <Keybuk> :D
[16:01] <Keybuk> ok, it sounds like we agree that this is a mess :-)
[16:01] <sabdfl> well. actually, i vote for IEC everywhere
[16:01] <sabdfl> but i won't argue the point, just vote
[16:01] <ball> K has been 1,024 at least since the 1960s
[16:01] <ball> ...probably the 1950s
[16:02] <ball> (see old DEC manuals for instance)
[16:02] <bdrung> but KB for 1,024 bytes is not SI
[16:02] <cjwatson> gparted does that for disks and people are confused that it gives a different number than what it says on the box they got their disk drive in
[16:02] <mdz> KB and KiB are both valid and mean different (increasingly standard) things
[16:02] <ball> bdrung: no, but it's not incompatible with SI.
[16:02] <mdz> there are circumstances where each is valid
[16:02] <mdz> s/valid/appropriate/
[16:02] <ball> k = 1000, K = 1024
[16:02] <ball> job done.
[16:03] <ball> (unless Kelvin, but obviously not applicable to disk drives, RAM etc.)
[16:03] <cjwatson> perhaps unfortunately, that is not the way the rest of the world is going
[16:03] <ewook> agreed.
[16:03] <Keybuk> I suggest that the appropriate way to deal with this is to first agree whether we *should* have a policy on this
[16:03] <mdz> this is the umpteenth time it has come up, so I think we do need one
[16:03] <Keybuk> and if we agree we should, we should follow cjwatson's debate suggestion of having people draft competing policies and arguments
[16:03] <Keybuk> ok, let's vote on that
[16:03] <cjwatson> we should have a policy, but it should be nuanced
[16:03] <mdz> cjwatson++
[16:03] <Keybuk> [VOTE] SHOULD we have a policy on use of unit multiples?
[16:03] <MootBot> Please vote on:  SHOULD we have a policy on use of unit multiples?.
[16:03] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:03] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:03] <mdz> +1
[16:03] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:03] <cjwatson> +1
[16:03] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:03] <Keybuk> +1 we should have a policy
[16:03] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[16:04] <Keybuk> sabdfl ?
[16:04] <gnuyoga> +1
[16:04] <MootBot> +1 received from gnuyoga. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[16:04] <sabdfl> +1
[16:04] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[16:04] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[16:04] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[16:04] <Keybuk> ok
[16:04]  * ball doesn't even know what meeting he's in ;-)
[16:04] <mdz> ball: Ubuntu Technical Board
[16:04] <bdrung> where to put the policy draft?
[16:04] <Keybuk> then I suggest the initiative should be bdrung's as the proposer
[16:04] <mdz> bdrung: wiki
[16:04] <sabdfl> has debian made a serious effort to standardise or set a policy?
[16:04] <Keybuk> bdrung would you be happy to draft a policy (in wording similar to patent policy, etc.) and propose it to the TB
[16:04] <cjwatson> ultimately a ratified draft could go into the Ubuntu policy manual
[16:04] <cjwatson> sabdfl: I think it's been bikeshedded, but I don't recall a serious effort to standardise
[16:04] <Keybuk> and then if anybody else has a proposed alternate policy, we can discuss from there?
[16:04] <bdrung> mdz: which location directly?
[16:05] <mdz> bdrung: your choice
[16:05] <bdrung> suggestions?
[16:05] <bdrung> names which avoids bikeshedds?
[16:05] <cjwatson> there have been some discussions related to it, e.g. http://bugs.debian.org/534408
[16:05] <Keybuk> bdrung: wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftUnitsPolicy ?
[16:05] <Keybuk> or /UnitsPolicy
[16:05] <bdrung> sounds good
[16:05] <ball> mdz: thanks.  I wouldn't have interrupted but that's a pet peeve of mine.
[16:05] <Keybuk> [ACTION] bdrung to draft initial units policy for discussion
[16:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bdrung to draft initial units policy for discussion
[16:06] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] chair for next meeting
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  chair for next meeting
[16:06] <Keybuk> we can't decide a chair without knowing who's in the TB for the next meeting
[16:06] <Keybuk> unless it's cjwatson?
[16:06] <Keybuk> #endmeeting
[16:06] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:06.
[16:06] <Keybuk> timeout again
[16:06] <sabdfl> thanks all
[16:06] <cjwatson> (FWIW I can find no other relevant discussion on debian-policy that includes the word "kibibyte", so I think #534408 is the only thing close)
[16:06] <Keybuk> sorry server team
[16:07] <Daviey> :)
[16:07] <jmdault> =)
[16:07] <mathiaz> allright - let's get the server team meeting started
[16:07] <Sam-I-Am> morning
[16:07] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:07] <mdz> mathiaz: I have a couple of agenda items if there is time
[16:08] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:08] <soren> o/
[16:08] <mathiaz> mdz: I'll try to leave some time for an open discussions
[16:08] <mathiaz> last week's minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090818
[16:09] <ttx> o/
[16:09] <Daviey> \o
[16:09] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Asterisk
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Asterisk
[16:09] <ivoks> o/
[16:09] <mathiaz> jmdault: what's the state of the stack?
[16:09] <jmdault> mathiaz: pwlib and openh323 have the right versions in karmic since friday
[16:10] <mathiaz> jmdault: next in line are dahdi and astreisk* ?
[16:10] <Daviey> suprisingly, openh323 has been in a build dep wait since April, and was satisified with pwlib upload therefore automagically building.
[16:10] <jmdault> mathiaz: the Debian Asterisk package has been imported in karmic
[16:10] <jmdault> I've built packages in my PPA
[16:10] <mathiaz> jmdault: great - what's left then?
[16:11] <jmdault> Now all that's left is for someone to review my packages and upload them
[16:11] <Daviey> Hmm
[16:11] <Daviey> There is the dahdi-dkms issue.
[16:11] <jmdault> I sent the dkms patch to debian-voip maintainers
[16:12] <Daviey> Debian isn't carrying dkms for dahdi.. so if we upload that now, it's a ubuntu specific change
[16:12] <Daviey> jmdault: great, they were waiting for it.  Would be great to hear of their feedback, was it on the ML?
[16:12] <Daviey> thier*
[16:12] <mathiaz> jmdault: ok - do you have sponsors?
[16:12] <jmdault> hopefully someone will have a look at it between all the spam that's on the list =(
[16:12] <mathiaz> jmdault: where are the packages that needs to be reviewed?
[16:12] <Daviey> jmdault: hah, just seen the email arrive in my Inbox :)
[16:13] <jmdault> mathiaz: https://launchpad.net/~jmdault/+archive/ppa
[16:13] <jmdault> I also put everything in bzr for easy diffs
[16:13] <jmdault> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-voip/+junk/asterisk-1.6
[16:13] <mathiaz> jmdault: ok - thanks for working on that
[16:14] <jmdault> I was expecting stgraber to sponsor me, unfortunately he's overloaded this week
[16:14] <mathiaz> jmdault: next step is to find sponsors for the remaining packages in https://launchpad.net/~jmdault/+archive/ppa
[16:14] <mathiaz> anything else to add?
[16:14] <jmdault> I updated the wiki page
[16:15] <mathiaz> jmdault: which one?
[16:15] <jmdault> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AsteriskIntegration
[16:15] <Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AsteriskIntegration
[16:15] <jmdault> =)
[16:15] <jmdault> Now, how can I find a sponsor?
[16:16] <mathiaz> jmdault: send an email to ubuntu-motu@
[16:16] <mathiaz> jmdault: ask in #ubuntu-motu
[16:16] <mathiaz> jmdault: blog about it
[16:16] <jmdault> ok
[16:17] <mathiaz> jmdault: however we're before FF so everyone is very busy
[16:17] <jmdault> yes, I know =(
[16:17] <mathiaz> anything else before we move on?
[16:17] <jmdault> nope
[16:17] <mathiaz> great
[16:17] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update Ebox to 1.3
[16:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Update Ebox to 1.3
[16:17] <mathiaz> foolano: ^^?
[16:18] <ttx> zul says: "Ebox 1.3 in universe is done"
[16:18] <mathiaz> great. let's move on.
[16:18] <mathiaz> That's all I had from last week minutes.
[16:18] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU weekly review
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU weekly review
[16:18] <ttx> yay
[16:18] <mathiaz> Review nominated list and last week fix released bugs to either accept them or mark them won't fix
[16:19] <Daviey> quite an easy review :)
[16:19] <mathiaz> http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[16:19] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[16:19] <mathiaz> anything SRU worthy on this list^^ ?
[16:20] <ttx> I don't have any favorite there.
[16:20] <ivoks> well, if apache segfaults with mod_deflate...
[16:21] <Daviey> bug 409987 needs watching
[16:21] <ivoks> i'm using mod_deflate and haven't seen segfault in hardy
[16:21] <jmdault> +1 for 409987
[16:22] <ttx> doesn't http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-802-2 cover those ?
[16:22] <Daviey> Bug #406303
[16:22] <Daviey>  ^^ seems to be in hand already
[16:22] <mathiaz> right - its seems that it's a security related regression so the security team should be following up
[16:22] <Daviey> ttx: The comments suggest no.
[16:22] <ivoks> ttx: it should
[16:24] <ttx> Daviey: at this point the bug is considered fixed... and in every release
[16:24] <ivoks> should be tested
[16:24] <ivoks> since we have a user that claims it's not fixed
[16:24] <ttx> I'm pretty sure security tested it
[16:24] <mathiaz> I think mdeslaur is on it.
[16:24] <ivoks> right
[16:24] <ttx> anyway, either the bug is fixed or not fixed. If it's not fixed yet, then it's not a SRU candidate anyway
[16:24] <Daviey> i'm not sure we can have additional influence at this stage.
[16:25] <mathiaz> how about bug 406303?
[16:25] <Daviey> mathiaz: seems to be in hand with Chuck Short.
[16:25] <ttx> mathiaz: accepted already
[16:25] <mathiaz> oh ok.
[16:25] <mathiaz> anything else from the list?
[16:26] <ttx> no.
[16:26] <Daviey> not here.
[16:26] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on to the next list:
[16:26] <mathiaz> http://us-dappernominated.notlong.com/
[16:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-dappernominated.notlong.com/
[16:26] <mathiaz> anything worth accepting?
[16:27] <ttx> most of them are nominated by someone named "Mathias Gug".
[16:27] <mdz> sounds suspicious
[16:27] <ttx> I'd accept all of them. Except maybe 164007 which shoudl be handled (or is handled) by security
[16:28] <mathiaz> ttx: sounds good. are you doing it?
[16:28] <mathiaz> ttx: net-snmp seems security related
[16:28] <mathiaz> bug 164007
[16:28] <ttx> yes, I don't really know what we should do with those. Leave them alone ?
[16:29] <jdstrand> that should be fixed in http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-564-1
[16:29] <ttx> jamie to the rescue
[16:29] <mathiaz> jdstrand: for all previous releases?
[16:29] <jdstrand> dapper through gutsy
[16:29] <Daviey> \o/
[16:29] <jdstrand> look at that, I even prepared it :)
[16:29] <mathiaz> jdstrand: so not relevant for hardy+?
[16:30] <ttx> ok, accepting them and fix-releasing the security one
[16:30] <jdstrand> 5.4.1 has the fix
[16:30] <jdstrand> 5.4.1~dfsg-4ubuntu4 has released in hardy (not affected)
[16:30] <mathiaz> great - nothing left from dapper
[16:30] <mathiaz> let's move on to hardy
[16:31] <jdstrand> s/has/was/
[16:31] <mathiaz> http://us-hardynominated.notlong.com/
[16:31] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-hardynominated.notlong.com/
[16:31] <ttx> I'm unsure about those two hardy ones. Are those features, or bugs ?
[16:31] <ttx> If PHP doesn't count correctly, I wouldn't "fix" it in a SRU.
[16:32] <mathiaz> right - decline
[16:32] <ttx> the DDNS thing is a feature, but counts as a bug if "doing as in Windows" is the right behavior
[16:32] <mathiaz> as the potential for regression in existing code is high
[16:33] <mathiaz> does thing badly break if DDNS is not done?
[16:33] <jdstrand> ttx: I'll take care of the net-snmp bug. I didn't notice it before now and should have closed it with the USN
[16:33] <ttx> jdstrand: ok
[16:33] <mathiaz> ttx: does thing badly break if DDNS is not done?
[16:34] <ttx> mathiaz: no. It's just that the newly-joined workstation needs to be manually added into Windows DNS
[16:34] <ttx> while Windows workstations do that automatically
[16:34] <mathiaz> ttx: ok - I'd decline
[16:35] <ttx> ok
[16:35] <ttx> declining both, next
[16:35] <mathiaz> nothing left for hardy - let's move on to intrepid
[16:35] <mathiaz> http://us-intrepidnominated.notlong.com/
[16:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-intrepidnominated.notlong.com/
[16:35] <ttx> All those are valid. Though I wouldn't spend too much time fixing Intrepid now.
[16:36] <ttx> But since we should accept them if they are valid, rather than if we want to do them...
[16:36] <mathiaz> ttx: right.
[16:36] <mathiaz> just a reminder that accepting bugs doesn't mean they'll get fixed
[16:37] <mathiaz> next step is for someone to prepare the SRU report and a bzr branch for sponsoring
[16:37] <mathiaz> ttx: anything else for intrepid?
[16:38] <ttx> no, accepting them
[16:38] <mathiaz> great - let's move on to jaunty
[16:38] <mathiaz> http://us-jauntynominated.notlong.com/
[16:38] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-jauntynominated.notlong.com/
[16:38] <ttx> should be declined. not in Jaunty
[16:39] <ttx> regression if any should be handled in a separate bug
[16:39] <ttx> as jamie commented.
[16:39] <mathiaz> ttx: agreed.
[16:39] <mathiaz> so nothing left in these lists.
[16:40] <mathiaz> so next phase:
[16:40] <mathiaz> Review accepted list
[16:40] <mathiaz> well - I've looked at LP and wasn't able to come up with a query that would have this list
[16:41] <mathiaz> FYI I'm following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase in the SRU weekly review section from the IRC meeting section
[16:41] <ttx> zul has been cherrypicking SRU candidates, but a list would definitely be useful.
[16:41] <mathiaz> ttx: right - I'll work on my scripts to try to produce such a list
[16:42] <ttx> great !
[16:42] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to produce a list of accepted bugs for packages related to the ubuntu-server team
[16:42] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to produce a list of accepted bugs for packages related to the ubuntu-server team
[16:42] <mathiaz> anything else to add to the SRU review?
[16:42] <ttx> nope
[16:42] <mathiaz> Things should be faster now that we have gone through the first round
[16:43] <mathiaz> and purged all the backlog.
[16:43] <ttx> yes.
[16:43] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] FFE for bacula
[16:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  FFE for bacula
[16:43] <mathiaz> so zul was supposed to talk about that
[16:43] <mathiaz> but he isn't here.
[16:43] <ivoks> eh...
[16:44] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add something ?
[16:44] <mathiaz> ivoks: ^^?
[16:44] <ivoks> i'll ask him if there's anything special to keep in mind
[16:44] <ttx> I guess he expects to request a FFe to get Bacula to 3.0.2
[16:44] <ivoks> but it shouldn't be a problem to do a merge
[16:44] <ivoks> so, i could work on that
[16:44] <ttx> I'm not sure whay 3.0.2 is required though.
[16:44] <ttx> why, even
[16:45] <ivoks> security probably
[16:45] <mathiaz> ttx: seems to be a new upstream version
[16:45] <ivoks> Version 3.0.2 is primarily a important bug fix update to version 3.0.1
[16:45] <mathiaz> it's been in experimental for a few months
[16:46] <mathiaz> ivoks: right - however 2.4 is in karmic
[16:46] <ivoks> we should move to 3.0.x
[16:46] <mathiaz> ivoks: why should we move to 3.0.X now in karmic?
[16:46] <ivoks> so, there should be an upgrade
[16:46] <ivoks> it's probably to late now...
[16:47] <mathiaz> 3.0 went in unstable 5 days ago
[16:47] <Sam-I-Am> is 9.10 going to be lts? i forget...
[16:47] <mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: nope
[16:47] <Daviey> Sam-I-Am: no
[16:47] <Sam-I-Am> ah, then it can probably wait until 10.04
[16:47] <mathiaz> ok
[16:47] <Sam-I-Am> if it was lts i'd say its a bigger deal
[16:47]  * mathiaz agrees
[16:48] <mathiaz> [ACTION] bacula FFe rejected - 3.0.X deferred to the next release cycle.
[16:48] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bacula FFe rejected - 3.0.X deferred to the next release cycle.
[16:48] <dendrobates> mathiaz: although, it would be nice to test it in karmic before we put it in an lts
[16:48] <ivoks> we might open ppa inside bacula-team
[16:49] <Sam-I-Am> that'd work
[16:49] <dendrobates> ivoks: that works
[16:49] <mathiaz> ivoks: seems like a good plan.
[16:49] <Daviey> dendrobates: Whilst i agree, is it a good idea if we get in the habbit of a non-LTS being an 'almost' unstable server release?
[16:50] <mathiaz> [ACTION] bacula 3.0.X to be made available from a PPA from the bacula team.
[16:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bacula 3.0.X to be made available from a PPA from the bacula team.
[16:50] <ivoks> i always consider non-LTS as 'technology preview' - this is something you'll get in next LTS
[16:50] <dendrobates> Daviey: yes, that is what it is.
[16:50] <mathiaz> anything else to add on the topic of bacula 3.0.x in karmic?
[16:51] <mathiaz> nope - let's move on.
[16:51] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[16:51] <mathiaz> mdz: ^^?
[16:51] <mdz> mathiaz: thanks
[16:51] <mdz> I'd like to check in on a few 9.10 projects if that's OK
[16:51] <mdz> just to make sure I know where we stand for feature freeze
[16:52] <mdz> I'll try to be quick, if I can get quick answers ;-)
[16:52] <mdz> first, the UEC/EC2 images
[16:52] <mdz> I see that they're building daily now, and they were included in alpha 4. that looks good
[16:52] <mdz> I'm a bit concerned about the following bugs:
[16:52] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/418130
[16:52] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-on-ec2/+bug/376740
[16:53] <mdz> 418130 is said to be the major blocker, but it's Undecided/New and not targeted. seems in need of triage?
[16:53] <soren> mdz: The latter was fixed today.
[16:53] <mdz> soren: that's great news. launchpad still thinks it's open and critical. can we close it? ;-)
[16:53] <ttx> mdz: 418130 was just created as a tracker. I asked jjohansen to update the status on it
[16:53] <soren> mdz: It was closed 7 minutes ago :) I just haven't done the paperwork yet.
[16:54] <ttx> mdz: I think he is on vacation.
[16:54] <mdz> ttx: why is it "just a tracker"? are we not sure if there is a bug or not?
[16:54] <soren> We're sure there's a bug.
[16:55] <soren> The bug /report/ was opened to have a place to track the work being done on the subject.
[16:55] <ttx> not "just a tracker". A tracker. there might be multiple issues, all resulting in not being able to use a karmic kernel on karmic images.
[16:55] <mdz> I was pointed to this bug as the authoritative bug report for the issue which is preventing us from releasing 9.04 EC2 images
[16:55] <mdz> iirc the problem was that the instances sometimes didn't boot
[16:55] <soren> That's correct.
[16:55] <mdz> there's nothing in that bug report about that, though
[16:55] <mdz> is there a separate bug report which actually describes the problem, filed on the kernel perhaps?
[16:56] <soren> There is. Just a moment.
[16:56] <ttx> soren: ah ? couldn't find it.
[16:56] <mdz> ttx: part of what confused me is that the bug only referred to Karmic (just as you did just now).  but do we not have the same issue on 9.04?
[16:57] <soren> I've decided this is the one: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-on-ec2/+bug/398568
[16:57] <ttx> soren:  since jj couldn't update the status and zul is away, could you update status on that "tracker" bug ?
[16:57] <mdz> ttx: since there is already a proper bug open, I don't see why we need this "tracker" one
[16:57] <soren> I'm assuming the failure in us-east-1a is a different problem.
[16:57] <mdz> soren: thank you
[16:57] <soren> ttx: I know I said differently yesterday. Sorry.
[16:57] <mdz> that one is set to importance Undecided, and is not assigned to anyone
[16:58] <mdz> who is working on the issue?
[16:58] <soren> zul and jjohansen.
[16:58] <ttx> mdz: I acted based on soren's feedback :)
[16:58] <soren> Yeah, my bad entirely. I read too much into the us-east-1a failure in Eric's report.
[16:58] <mdz> ok, so it needs to be triaged and assigned
[16:58] <mdz> what's the status of the Ubuntu package archive server(s) inside EC2?
[16:58] <ttx> mdz: yes. I thought jjohansen would do that, unfortunately he is away
[16:59] <ttx> mdz: will make sure it is.
[16:59] <soren> mdz: I was under the impression that they were live.
[16:59] <soren> I cannot say so authoritatively, though.
[16:59] <soren> They're run by IS.
[16:59] <smoser> i'm under that same impression, but can verify quickly if need be
[16:59] <mdz> my assumption is that the official jaunty and karmic images use those repositories by default in sources.list
[16:59] <mdz> is that correct?
[17:00] <soren> In a sense, yes.
[17:00] <soren> The instances, yes.
[17:00] <mdz> so it dynamically sets it up at boot?
[17:00] <soren> the images... Less so. We do some configuration at boot-up to adjust things like this.
[17:00] <soren> Yes.
[17:00] <mdz> ok, sounds good
[17:00] <soren> That way we can use the same images all over the place.
[17:00] <mdz> if someone could confirm that they actually work and are being kept up to date, I would appreciate it
[17:00] <ttx> We're running out of time, though we can continue this status update in #ubuntu-server (or #ubuntu-cloud)
[17:01] <mdz> sure, happy to
[17:01] <mdz> ->#ubuntu-server
[17:01] <ttx> mathiaz: close ?
[17:01] <mathiaz> ttx: sure.
[17:01] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:01] <mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
[17:01] <ivoks> yes
[17:02]  * Daviey wonders if it is worth moving the time, as it clearly adds pressure on the TB every week.
[17:02] <Sam-I-Am> yup
[17:02] <mathiaz> Daviey: TB runs every other week
[17:02] <ivoks> Daviey: or move it to ubuntu-server
[17:03] <mathiaz> Also there isn't always a meeting afterwards
[17:03] <mathiaz> anyway - same place, same time, next week
[17:04] <mathiaz> thanks for attending
[17:04] <Sam-I-Am> sounds good
[17:04] <ttx> sound good
[17:04] <mathiaz> #stopmeeting
[17:04] <ttx> thanks mathiaz
[17:04] <Daviey> +1
[17:04] <sommer> thanks mathiaz
[17:04] <Daviey> o/
[17:04] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:04.
[17:57] <manjo> roll call
[17:57] <lieb> here
[17:57] <manjo> #startmeeting
[17:57] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:57. The chair is manjo.
[17:57] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:57] <bjf> YO!
[17:57] <manjo> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:57]  * rtg is here
[17:58]  * smb comes in
[17:58] <rtg> manjo, you're a bit ahead of schedule
[17:58]  * amitk is here
[17:58]  * manjo waiting 1minute 
[17:58]  * ogasawara waves
[17:59] <manjo> We have several topics for discussion today, total meeting time is one hour, a little over 3 minutes per topic.
[17:59]  * jjohansen waves
[18:00] <manjo> [TOPIC] Open Action Items: check up on drbd status in dkms package and kernel (apw)
[18:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Items: check up on drbd status in dkms package and kernel (apw)
[18:00] <bjf> moving on...
[18:00] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
[18:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs)
[18:00] <ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (5 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:00] <ogasawara> RC Milestoned Bugs Alpha 5 (0 kernel bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=12713
[18:00] <ogasawara> Release Targeted Bugs (9 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/linux
[18:01] <manjo> ogasawara, anything else ?
[18:01] <ogasawara> manjo: nope
[18:01] <manjo> TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Milestoned Features
[18:01] <ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/karmic-alpha-5
[18:01] <ogasawara> manjo: nothing kernel specific there either
[18:01] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: hwdb workshop (ogasawara)
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: hwdb workshop (ogasawara)
[18:02] <ogasawara> There is now a bzr branch of code for removing the HAL dependency from the hwdb and checkbox and using udev instead.
[18:02] <ogasawara> This will hopefully be merged before feature freeze (which is in 2 days).
[18:02] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: kms (apw)
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: kms (apw)
[18:02] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: new kernel on lts (rtg)
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: new kernel on lts (rtg)
[18:03] <rtg> manjo, about to be uploaded, probably later today.
[18:03] <manjo> ok thanks rtg
[18:03] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: review of non upstreamed code (smb)
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: review of non upstreamed code (smb)
[18:03] <smb> I went over the list a few minutes ago. Most things are complete, a few disabled but not yet dropped and one driver (lenovo-sl) I have to check with Ike.
[18:03] <manjo> ok thanks smb
[18:03] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: android (coolony)
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: android (coolony)
[18:04] <rtg> I suspect there is no change there.
[18:04] <bjf> that is supposed to be removed from the agenda
[18:04] <bjf> [ACTION] remove android blueprint from agenda
[18:05] <manjo> [ACTION] remove android blueprint from agenda (bjf)
[18:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  remove android blueprint from agenda (bjf)
[18:05] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: suspend resume (manjo)
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Blueprints: suspend resume (manjo)
[18:05] <manjo> Working on putting together the USB test kit, target ALF.
[18:05] <manjo> test KMS & suspend resume
[18:06] <manjo> disable blutooth before suspend resume testing coz of known failures
[18:06] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Other Release Tasks: AppArmour (jjohansen)
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Other Release Tasks: AppArmour (jjohansen)
[18:06] <jjohansen> lp #359338 started testing on it friday
[18:07] <jjohansen> ut didn't get to far
[18:07] <jjohansen> I have a request pull with about 10 commits I need to send out
[18:07] <jjohansen> I just need to go back and add lp bug numbers to some of the commit
[18:07] <jjohansen> s
[18:08] <rtg> jjohansen, how important is this bug to get fixed?
[18:08] <jjohansen> other than that there are some known bugs in user space
[18:08] <jjohansen> rtg: you mean lp #359338
[18:08] <rtg> yes
[18:08] <jjohansen> fairly, but it isn't a regression as it exists in jaunty
[18:09] <jjohansen> but with ecryptfs becoming an install option ...
[18:09] <rtg> jjohansen, on a diffetrent topic, how is EC2 coming (which has higher priority) ?
[18:09] <jjohansen> I refreshed the EC2 patches against latest on friday
[18:10] <rtg> you have a kernel that boot reliably?
[18:10] <jjohansen> I can build a kernel but it doesn't package for EC2, and its editing configs
[18:10] <jjohansen> that is as far as I got with it
[18:11] <jjohansen> I have currently kicked off a build of the pv ops kernel to stick in for karmic
[18:11] <jjohansen> until the xen patch kernel is running
[18:11] <rtg> k
[18:11] <jjohansen> rtg: no
[18:11] <jjohansen> it doesn't boot reliably, but with suffice for alpha
[18:11] <rtg> still the same availability zone issue?
[18:12] <jjohansen> yeah the pv ops has the zone issue
[18:12] <jjohansen> the xen patch kernel has other config issues
[18:12] <jjohansen> it should just be a matter of working through the config
[18:12] <jjohansen> the friday update fix a couple problems
[18:13] <rtg> manjo, on to ARM status...
[18:13] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk,bjf)
[18:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk,bjf)
[18:13] <bjf> Jaunty got it's FSL update. All ER8-SP patches applied and available in official Jaunty tree.
[18:13] <bjf> Currently updating the dove configuration in Karmic. Dove, karmic pacakges are being published.
[18:14] <amitk> nothing new to report (still stuck with the ethernet driver and perhaps some gpio misconfiguration)
[18:14] <manjo> [TOPIC] Karmic General Status (rtg)
[18:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic General Status (rtg)
[18:14] <rtg> uploaded a -rc7 based kernel, expect final perhaps next week.
[18:15] <manjo> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
[18:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
[18:15] <rtg> after that I'' start to get real fussy about what goes into master.
[18:15] <smb_tp> * Dapper:   2.6.15-54.79 (security)
[18:15] <smb_tp> * Hardy:    2.6.24-24.59 (security)
[18:15] <smb_tp>             2.6.24-24.60 (proposed)[3] 0/2 verifications
[18:15] <smb_tp> * Intrepid: 2.6.27-14.39 (security)
[18:15] <smb_tp>             2.6.27-14.40 (proposed+security/pending)
[18:15] <smb_tp> * Jaunty    2.6.28-15.49 (security)
[18:15] <smb_tp>             2.6.28-15.50 (proposed/pending)
[18:15] <smb_tp> Intrepid is just a new upload for the previous proposed. Both Intrepid and
[18:15] <smb_tp> Jaunty are not yet accepted into proposed. Hopefully this happens this week.
[18:16] <ogasawara> rtg: if there are some upstream patches which have not been merged upstream should I go ahead and submit patches or wait till 2.6.31 finalizes?
[18:16] <rtg> submit
[18:16] <manjo> [TOPIC] Netbook Trees: status (sconklin, apw)
[18:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Netbook Trees: status (sconklin, apw)
[18:17] <sconklin1> rtg just rebased the karmic netbook tree, I will test as soon as I can.
[18:17] <sconklin1> All distro trees should now have the new debian directory structure in place
[18:17] <sconklin1> that's all
[18:17] <manjo> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:17] <rtg> sconklin1, I pushed the rebase earlier today
[18:17] <ogasawara> There were 4 regressions added to the list this week which smb and I reviewed yesterday and are currently investigating.
[18:18] <manjo> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:18] <smb_tp> For bug 417732 it seem I found the source
[18:18] <ogasawara> Bug day stats can be seen at:
[18:18] <ogasawara> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090818.html
[18:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090818.html
[18:18] <ogasawara> I'd specifically like to point out that *all* 50 bugs in the community section were triaged!
[18:18] <ogasawara> Everyone please give a big big thank you to Andres Mujica for his help!
[18:18] <ogasawara> I'd also like to note that Andres is helping write a symptom based suspend/resume apport hook to help with bug reporting.
[18:19]  * amitk ^5s Andres
[18:19]  * smb_tp Thanks Andres
[18:19] <manjo> [TOPIC] Open Discussion: Anyone have any questions ?
[18:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion: Anyone have any questions ?
[18:20] <manjo> going 1s
[18:20] <manjo> going 2s
[18:20] <amitk> next chair?
[18:20] <manjo> going 3s
[18:20] <manjo> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair: lieb
[18:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair: lieb
[18:21] <manjo> #endmeeting
[18:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
[18:21] <lieb> manjo, send me the materials etc