[00:53] <Bearshare> Hey
[00:54] <Bearshare> ops?
[00:54] <Bearshare> I've been a good boy I'd like to be unbanned from #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic
[01:07] <bazhang> Bearshare, you would need to speak to the operators that banned you
[01:08] <KB1JWQ>  /lastlog bearshare
[01:08] <Bearshare> I cant do that I was banned
[01:08] <KB1JWQ> Heh, fail. :)
[01:09] <KB1JWQ> No, that was my error.  Ignore me.
[01:13] <Bearshare> I dont remember who banned me
[01:18] <bazhang> Bearshare, generally speaking, trolling in other channels and asking for trolling tips is not a confidence builder when you say you have been well behaved
[01:18] <Bearshare> When did I do that? I must have been joking
[01:29] <bazhang> Bearshare, just now and earlier in ##hardware
[01:29] <bazhang> rohff94, hi, thanks for joining
[01:29] <Bearshare> What?
[01:29] <rohff94> no welcome , i am happy to be with you
[01:29] <Bearshare> I am banned in hardware
[01:29] <Bearshare> or rather devoiced
[01:29] <bazhang> Bearshare, you are welcome to discuss with jussi01 for the #ubuntu ban however
[01:30] <Bearshare> where is he
[01:30] <bazhang> rohff94, just a moment please
[01:30] <rohff94> ok bazhang
[01:33] <bazhang> Bearshare, he does not seem to be around right now, please try re-joining this channel later.
[01:34] <Bearshare> No
[01:34] <Bearshare> Unban me from ubuntu offtopic
[01:34] <Flannel> Bearshare: That's not how this works
[01:34] <bazhang> Bearshare, ban removals are not on-demand
[01:35] <Bearshare> They were with ##mac and I was banned there for MONTHS
[01:37] <Flannel> Bearshare: this isn't ##mac, nor is it ##hardware.
[01:38] <Bearshare> what exactly were my reasons for being banned from ubuntu and ubuntu-offtopic?
[01:39] <nalioth> Bearshare: you've been requested to return when jussi01 is around
[01:39] <nalioth> to return, you must leave
[01:39] <Bearshare> no
[01:40] <Flannel> bantracker is difficult on w3m.  Although, thank you jussi01, it's much better than it used to be.
[01:40] <Flannel> s/difficult/slow/
[01:41] <bazhang> rohff94, as we discussed yesterday, you and your bots are banned in #ubuntu , yet I saw you ban-evading there again yesterday after our conversation when you said you would stop.
[01:45] <rohff94> if i good understand you are banned me and now i have juste retire me from black list !!
[01:45] <rohff94> you have juste
[01:46] <bazhang> rohff94, there are several bans from repeated ban evasion, and again yesterday after you said you would stop; the main issue is your accessing other users ftp servers (either yourself or via your bot) as well as having a non-permitted bot in the channel.
[01:47] <bazhang> rohff94, these are all issues we discussed yesterday
[01:48] <rohff94> what do you want to explain me, i am banned for long times or not ? sorry but i ddon't spack english very well
[01:49] <rohff94> i translate with google
[01:49] <rohff94> yesterday i told you that i was sopped
[01:49] <rohff94> stopped
[01:50] <bazhang> rohff94, until the issue with the unauthorized bot's activity by your self is cleared up, the bans won't be removed (ie trying to access their ftp servers)
[01:50] <bazhang> rohff94, yes, you told me that, but then you re-joined the channel using a different IP address again.
[01:51] <rohff94> no it was not me
[01:51] <rohff94> i have one word
[01:51] <bazhang> rohff94, sure it was. I checked it carefully myself
[01:52] <rohff94> i want to explain you something
[01:52] <rohff94> juste 2 minutes
[01:52] <rohff94> please
[01:52] <bazhang> rohff94, please do
[02:00] <rohff94> Yesterday I told you I stopped, if I really wanted to fuck the trouble I would have done and you can not stop me, I have multiple IP addresses not only from (Algeria) but from many access in the world, i am security professional, I made this bot for  my little brother, it was just a test for showing to my little borther a security vulnirabilites  and i never test again
[02:00] <rohff94> it juste for that
[02:00] <rohff94> i dont make anything in theme server
[02:01] <bazhang> rohff94, and you just ban evaded again 25 minutes ago.
[02:01] <rohff94> i have just come
[02:01] <rohff94> you can say my IP
[02:01] <rohff94> ok man
[02:02] <rohff94> i am tired it's 03:02
[02:02] <rohff94> have a good night
[02:05] <bazhang> repeated ban evasion, threats of more above ^^ seems staff should have a look at this ; rohff94 frequents #ubuntu-dz
[02:06] <Flannel> bazhang: @mark it
[02:06] <Flannel> (as well)
[02:35] <mnaines> I have a problem with an admin
[02:36] <bazhang> mnaines, you wish to discuss the channel policies of not allowing other linux support in #ubuntu ?
[02:36] <mnaines> I am disputing your violation of the code of conduct and your muting me for debating your refusal to assist a fellow Linux user in need AFTER he specifically said the rooms you directed him to were dead or dying
[02:37] <bazhang> mnaines, it is the channel policy; I asked you to join here long before you were muted.
[02:38] <mnaines> bazhang, since when does channel policy trump common sense?
[02:39] <mnaines> The user in question specifically stated the rooms you directed him to were not as active as this one and he felt he could not get the help he needed in those rooms
[02:39] <mnaines> That is why I questioned you
[02:40] <genii> mnaines: If you feel compelled to help a user with a different dist you can always /join #theirdistname  and assist them there
[02:41] <mnaines> Here is the user's exact statement from my logs: (07:58:38 PM) _20eric06_: Look, I'm asking here because there is nowhere else to ask, and there is barely any people here active so I don't see why I can't get any help for my DamnSmallLinux, so I'll start off saying that no, I'm not using Ubuntu
[02:41] <mnaines> genii, Mr. Eric was refused help simply because he was not using Ubuntu despite the fact he stated there was nowhere else for him to ask
[02:42] <genii> mnaines: At that point in the conversation you could have told them something to the effect: Hang on and I'll join you in #damnsmalllinux and assist. Anyone who wanted to help them could have.
[02:42] <mnaines> genii: Several other members of #ubuntu tried to assist him, but bazhang kept insisting he seek help elsewhere
[02:42] <bazhang> I am in there at the moment, and he has not asked for any assistance.
[02:43] <mnaines> genii: I know nothing about damnsmalllinux so I could not have helped him anyway
[02:43] <mnaines> genii: His question was something about hooking up a DSL connection
[02:45] <mnaines> bazhang, knowing your attitude towards him, he probably got fed up and signed offline...I would have, too
[02:45] <genii> mnaines: The question he had is unimportant. The crux of the matter is that the channel policy is that the channel is for assistance with Ubuntu and not other distributions.
[02:45] <bazhang> mnaines, he is still in there. you are welcome to join us to resolve his issue
[02:45] <genii> bazhang: Exactly.
[02:46] <mnaines> genii, that is why I am questioning it...People are acting like its some sort of "members only" club or something, and that refusal to help a fellow Linux user in need is why I am upset...He specifically said he cannot get help elsewhere
[02:46] <mnaines> genii: since when did following the rules mean doing away with common sense?
[02:46] <bazhang> mnaines, it is a ubuntu support only channel.
[02:47] <mnaines> Which is more important to you, ensuring Linux users get the help they need, or following the channel rules to the letter?
[02:47] <bazhang> the channel rules.
[02:47] <mnaines> Why am I not surprised?
[02:47] <bazhang> they can get help in ##linux or #theirdistro
[02:47] <mnaines> This is what happens when a "members-only" mentality meets a "help others regardless" mentality
[02:48] <genii> mnaines: Someone may have taken pity on him and wanted to assist which is fine. but not to assist in the ubuntu channel. Any other, whether the one for what dist they need help with, or some -offtopic or even by private message.
[02:48] <mnaines> genii: Clearly you did not understand me
[02:48] <mnaines> genii: Why I questioned bazhang was because the user in question specifically said he had nowhere else to go for help
[02:49] <Flannel> mnaines: Support of other distros in #ubuntu causes additional noise, and can cause problems when there are differences in the way of doing something.
[02:49] <Flannel> mnaines: Someone can come in, midway through support, and either a) learn something inaccurate for ubuntu, or b) attempt to assist, and assume Ubuntu, and then help incorrectly.
[02:49] <bazhang> mnaines, channel policy was in place long before I joined up :)
[02:50] <genii> mnaines: "common sense" is to ask for help in the appropriate channel. If that fails a plea in a non-appropriate channel is fine. But giving the actuasl support there is not fine or common-sense because it is irrelevant to the channel purpose.
[02:50] <Flannel> It's a problem for not only the other people getting support, but also for the individuals who are being offtopic (even if that offtopicness is support for something else)
[02:50] <mnaines> Flannel: (07:58:38 PM) _20eric06_: Look, I'm asking here because there is nowhere else to ask, and there is barely any people here active so I don't see why I can't get any help for my DamnSmallLinux, so I'll start off saying that no, I'm not using Ubuntu  <<<He was very specific in what distribution he was using
[02:50] <Flannel> mnaines: Yes, what about my above statement did you not understand?
[02:50] <mnaines> Flannel: What part of my point do you not understand?  He had nowhere else to go for help
[02:51] <Flannel> mnaines: There's #ubuntu-offtopic if no where else.
[02:51] <nalioth> mnaines: i disagree.  there are several other channels he could have received help in
[02:51] <mnaines> How would you all feel if you needed help, you had no place to go for help, and nobody would help you?
[02:51] <Flannel> But as I said, people don't always read scrollback, please read all of what I said before replying.
[02:51] <Flannel> mnaines: I wouldn't go to #debian and ask about SuSE stuff.
[02:51] <Flannel> Another channel I'm in has this factoid: I tried to buy a Renault in a Renault shop, but there were no salesmen available, so I came into this Ford shop. Why won't you sell me a Renault?!
[02:52] <Flannel> mnaines: The correct help for said person is to direct them to a venue in which they *can* get help.
[02:53] <mnaines> Flannel, which did not happen...The rooms in question are nowhere near as active
[02:53] <Flannel> If no one's in the DSL channel, and you feel like helping, enter the DSL channel and provide DSL support.
[02:53] <mnaines> Flannel: I know nothing about DSL, so I could not help him...
[02:53] <nalioth> that does not put the onus of help upon us, mnaines
[02:53] <Flannel> mnaines: I'm not really sure why you think #ubuntu is a catch-all channel.
[02:54] <mnaines> Flannel, go into Yahoo chat rooms for a few weeks and you will see what I mean...Most of Yahoo's chat rooms are either dead or they have destabilized so much nobody stays on the room topic anymore
[02:54] <Flannel> mnaines: I don't see how that relates at all.
[02:55] <Flannel> *surely* people out there use DSL, and provide DSL support.  I can't imagine that there's a population of zero.
[02:55] <nalioth> mnaines: #ubuntu is for support of Ubuntu for all the reasons stated above.  "off topic support" (which includes damnsmallinux) may start in #ubuntu-offtopic, and can also be had in ##linux
[02:55] <mnaines> Flannel: Go into the DSL room and compare its activity to that of Ubuntu and you will see what I mean
[02:55] <nalioth> for DSL issues, there are ##networking and ##hardware
[02:56] <nalioth> mnaines: is there anything else?
[02:56] <Flannel> mnaines: some rooms are bigger than others, what's your point?
[02:56] <Flannel> nalioth: damn small linux, not digital subscriber line ;)
[02:56] <mnaines> nalioth: Actually, there is...Why do you guys keep treating these rooms like "members-only" clubs?  Why do you think following the rules to the letter is more important than ensuring people get help
[02:57] <Flannel> mnaines: Remaining ontopic is important everywhere.
[02:57] <nalioth> mnaines: we are getting circular here.  is there anything else we can help you with?
[02:57] <mnaines> Flannel: It may be important, but you have to ask yourself which is more important, staying on room topic or helping those who need it
[02:57] <Flannel> mnaines: Even if you don't agree with channel policies, you're expected to follow them (or you're free to not follow them, if you're willing to live with the consequences)
[02:58] <genii> mnaines: We are all members of the linux club. Anyone who wanted to assist could have offered to. But not to assist in the #ubuntu channel proper with an unrelated distribution.
[02:58] <bazhang> mnaines, you have been unmuted; please remain on topic in #ubuntu
[02:58] <mnaines> Flannel: I know what the rules are...I did not come here to debate the rules...I came in here to question why a fellow Linux user did not get the help they needed all because they did not stay on topic
[02:59] <Flannel> mnaines: Because being offtopic isn't allowed.
[02:59] <mnaines> This place reminds me of Microsoft Tech Support...If its not a Microsoft product, they don't know anything about it and can't or won't help you
[03:00] <nalioth> mnaines: #ubuntu is confusing enough as it is.  to add DSL/Gentoo/debian/fedora/etc support into the mix would make it simply unusable.  is there anything else we can help you with?
[03:00] <Flannel> elaborating on that last statement a bit, when it becomes unusuable, *no* one gets proper support.
[03:00] <genii> mnaines: If you go to MS Win2K support and are using XP they refer you to XP support.
[03:01] <mnaines> genii: And the XP support is nonexistant...People in that room have no idea what they are talking about
[03:01] <Flannel> Just like if you ask about bug triage, we refer you to #ubuntu-bugs
[03:01] <Flannel> mnaines: And that's the fault of the 2K people why?
[03:02] <mnaines> I've been a Windows user since Windows 3.x/MS-DOS Shell days and I've seen time and time again people know nothing about Windows
[03:02] <mnaines> I've even been Windows tech support myself...Its all scripted
[03:02] <mnaines> Microsoft gives their tech support people a script and whenever someone calls, you have to read from that script
[03:03] <mnaines> If the problem isn't on the script, you're stuck
[03:03] <nalioth> mnaines: is there anything else we can help you with?  if not, please respect our /topic
[03:04] <mnaines> Basically, my point here is this...I've been on both ends of the tech support field, so I know how hard it is for people to get the help they need
[03:04] <mnaines> Its not as simple as directing them to a room dedicated to their problem
[03:05] <mnaines> It would be like calling the police and instead getting told you're outside their jurisdiction so the county sheriff is responding instead and the nearest sheriff's office is over an hour away...Good luck getting the help you need
[03:06] <nalioth> mnaines: if you do not have another topic, please part the channel
[03:07] <genii> Bleh.
[03:07] <bazhang> ##linux-overflow ?
[03:07] <Flannel> He was standoffish the other day too, but I don't remember what about.
[03:08] <Flannel> nothing terribly important
[03:08] <bazhang> chatting about hardware iirc
[03:08] <genii> I must be cranky, thats the second person I wanted to just slap around for their annoyance factor
[03:08] <bazhang> hehe
[03:08]  * bazhang hands genii a big mug of coffee
[03:09] <genii> Yay, coffee!!!
[03:09] <genii> bazhang: Thanks, needed that
[03:09] <bazhang> genii, just waking up myself :)
[03:10] <nalioth> mnaines: can we help you?
[03:11] <mnaines> Yeah...Explain to me what this code of conduct means and why ops can violate it but nobody else can: We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project, and with users of Ubuntu.
[03:12] <mnaines> Notice the "As well as with people outside the Ubuntu project" section
[03:13] <nalioth> mnaines: i am sorry if you did not understand our previous conversation.  there's really not much else to say on this.
[03:14] <mnaines> nalioth: you are all about following the rules to the letter, which is what our previous discussion was about, and it puzzles me as to why that particular rule is routinely violated
[03:14] <Flannel> mnaines: If you believe the CoC has been violated, you can file a complaint with the CC and they'll investigate it.
[03:15] <nalioth> mnaines: i suggest you reread what was said in here earlier
[03:15] <mnaines> nalioth: one last thing before I go - Respect has to be earned, just like money
[03:16]  * genii sips his coffee and tries to recover the last 10 minutes of his life
[03:22] <elky> Flannel, you mean the IRCC, right?
[03:25] <Flannel> I meant the CC, but IRCC would be valid.  Depends on how he wants to frame his complaint, a CC violation, where we're all eating babies, or challenging the IRC guidelines, which tell people to eat babies.
[03:26]  * genii feels sudden hunger pangs
[03:27] <nalioth> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/21/sears_baby_roaster/
[03:28] <genii> nalioth: Really?
[03:28]  * nalioth is only the reporter
[03:29] <genii> Ah, their site got defaced. Still funny.
[03:33] <jdong> genii: apparently the site accepts certain user input as a part of the rendering cache.
[03:34] <genii> Must be IIS
[03:34] <genii> ;)
[04:08] <mnaines> I found one useful benefit from helping people with off-topic or even on-topic stuff
[04:09] <mnaines> I think of it as "teaching a classroom"...In a room as large as #ubuntu, there are most likely other people with similar problems, so rather than having to assist each of them individually, they can all learn from the help one guy is getting with that very problem
[04:09] <mnaines> Makes the whole process go a lot faster
[04:13] <Flannel> !pm
[04:13] <Flannel> yes, we know that.
[04:16] <genii> I have a feeling they'll just keep popping in all night hammering on the same subject.
[04:18] <bazhang> heh
[04:18] <bazhang> he pre-emptively PM'ed me before this latest 'update'
[04:34] <bazhang> I need a break
[04:47] <genii> I'm out for tonight ...  break a leg
[04:48] <MsMaco> jussi01: you around?
[04:49] <bazhang> hehe
[04:50] <MsMaco> his quassel core is too new for karmic's quassel client as of umm... 2200 UTC today
[04:50] <MsMaco> er, yesterday
[04:50] <elky> MsMaco, good day, sir.
[04:50]  * elky hides behind bazhang
[04:50] <MsMaco> this'd be the two different clients thing
[04:51] <MsMaco> the quassel core is online as maco and i cant connect quassel client to it because the core has a newer protocol
[04:51] <bazhang> oh that's cool. so you can connect from anywhere to that core?
[04:52]  * genii hears some complaint about the quassel core and comes back
[04:52] <MsMaco> yeah
[04:53] <MsMaco> its like a gui version of screen/irssi
[04:53] <genii> MsMaco: I had to recompile tonight as well for it, he updated the core to protocol 10
[04:54] <MsMaco> yeah i see that
[04:54] <MsMaco> he's obviously not running karmic on tehre, cuz karmic has matching core & client
[04:56] <genii> MsMaco: I'm running Karmic here. I got the snapshot tar from the quassel git site, untarred and did cmake then a make and sudo make install which added the right one
[04:57] <MsMaco> ok
[04:57] <genii> MsMaco: http://git.quassel-irc.org/?p=quassel.git;a=snapshot;h=e866d53f275ece64b7c6d173f4135876835caea7;sf=tgz               which gets the snapshot
[04:58] <MsMaco> today's?
[04:58] <genii> Yup
[04:58] <bazhang> mnaines is seriously getting on my nerves with all his directives
[04:58] <genii> something like from 4 hours ago
[04:59] <genii> bazhang: Well, if they are the ones willing to "hold their hands" of the users which need that, it will keep them busy and out of trouble
[05:00] <bazhang> genii, oddly enough, for all his talk of 'teaching to the classroom' if he is stumped he advises users to 'just google it' :/
[05:02] <genii> Hypocrite :)
[05:03] <bazhang> ah he quit
[05:04] <genii> :)
[05:05] <genii> MsMaco: You OK with the compiling or need me to hang around ? midnight here and work tomorrow
[05:05] <MsMaco> i can compile alright. im thinking i might just package it to avoid spew
[05:06] <genii> OK, cool
[05:06] <genii> Goodnight (again )
[05:06] <bazhang> night :)
[06:58] <ikonia> work time - please keep an eye on vince in #ubuntu
[15:07] <genii> bazhang: Ah, you got him (Nehyx)
[15:07] <bazhang> genii, waiting for him this time
[15:08] <genii> :)
[15:08] <bazhang> looks like he wants to get #kubuntu as well
[15:09] <genii> Bah
[16:05] <Nehyx> hello
[16:05] <Nehyx> sorry for flood in #ubuntu
[16:05] <Myrtti> a-ha
[16:05] <Nehyx> I was angry, I spoke with staff
[16:05] <Myrtti> and?
[16:06] <elky> !guidelines
[16:06] <Nehyx> just say sorrry
[16:06] <Nehyx> elky: I know
[16:07] <Nehyx> but I was angry at this moment
[16:07] <elky> and what makes us sure that you're not going to lash out like that every time you're angry?
[16:07] <Nehyx> elky: I am saying sorry, I am not asking unban
[16:07] <Myrtti> great
[16:08] <elky> ah ok.
[16:08] <Myrtti> apology acknowledged
[16:08] <elky> well thanks for the apology.
[16:08] <Nehyx> I know, I flooded, and I should be banned
[16:08] <Myrtti> surprisingly, you are
[16:08] <Nehyx> yeah
[16:08] <elky> it's more than just flooding too, you staged a personal attack and said awful things as well.
[16:09] <Nehyx> I know
[16:09] <Nehyx> ok, I go now
[16:09] <Nehyx> thanks for your time and sorry
[16:11] <elky> i'd like to see an apology from him to erUSUL before that's lifted, because that just played out as 'sorry for flooding' with 'oh yeah, that too' tacked on when the other issues were mentioned.
[16:14] <mneptok> elky: sorry i spilled some coffee on your counter. and yeah, i guess i'm sorry for stabbing you repeatedly with that truck, too.
[16:16] <elky> mneptok, the only thing missing is 'but'
[16:18] <mneptok> a lot of women tell me that. can;t you just love me for my mind?
[16:19] <jussi01> elky: mark on the bt then ;)
[16:19] <elky> @mark
[16:20] <elky> @mark Nehyx <elky> i'd like to see an apology from him to erUSUL before that's lifted, because that just played out as 'sorry for flooding' with 'oh yeah, that too' tacked on when the other issues were mentioned.
[16:28] <niko> elky: perhaps you remember, on #ubuntu-irc http://pastebin.com/d155b8303
[16:43] <ikonia> niko: well noted
[18:50] <genii> Hehe "composting_manager" as opposed to "compositing_manager" has to be one of my favourite typos
[18:52] <topyli> you use a composting window damager
[18:53] <genii> Yes, I admit it :)
[18:58] <they> could be "composting mangler"
[18:59] <niko> or mono capable
[19:08] <genii> eagles has been allowed back into #k I see
[19:34] <jussi01> genii: you have checked its not an accidental ban evade?
[19:35] <jussi01> JanC: juliux Nafallo, we are clearing out all idlers as per what was decided RE: core channels at the last IRC meeting. If you are not an operator in one of the channels listed on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Scope then we politely ask you to leave. If you are and need voice, please ping one of the IRCC members and we will voice you.
[19:36]  * genii ponders "accidental" in the same sentence as "ban evade"
[19:37] <jussi01> genii: just check it ;)
[19:38] <maco> isps reset dhcp leases sometimes. its possible
[19:38] <maco> where it = accidental ban evasion
[19:39] <Myrtti> oh christ, I'm an op on too many of those channels
[19:40] <jussi01> hehe
[19:40] <jussi01> maco: exactly my point
[19:40] <Flannel> I don't see a ban (even a removed one) in #k
[19:42] <genii> Flannel: Thats what I'm also seeing. I thought ikonia had +b him in a number of different channels including #k
[19:43] <Flannel> theres one on k-devel
[19:43] <Flannel> Might check the ban list in the channel, just to make sure
[19:43] <maco> can i touch the bantracker yet?
[19:44] <jussi01> maco: hrm, I got lazy, so unless tsimpson has sorted you
[19:44] <jussi01> maco: can you try @login here?
[19:44] <maco> @login
[19:44] <maco> that looks like no
[19:44] <jussi01> right. lemme see...
[19:56] <ikonia> mnaines: hey - thanks for joining
[19:56] <mnaines> I'm not in a good mood today...All I am going to say is, respect has to be earned
[19:57] <ikonia> and you've not earned it
[19:57] <ikonia> it's a two way street
[19:57] <ikonia> respect the rules of the channel and there won't be any problems
[19:57] <mnaines> I feel no need to earn it if I am not going to get it in return
[19:57] <ikonia> you where spoken to politley
[19:57] <ikonia> you where advised/requested to keep the channel topic
[19:57] <ikonia> that was polite and respectful
[19:57] <mnaines> I've been back-stabbed so many times I don't trust anyone but myself anymore
[19:58] <maco> mnaines: do you feel the need to remain in that channel? if so, follow its rules
[19:58] <ikonia> that is not a reason to not follow the rules
[19:58] <mnaines> ikonia: I come from Yahoo's chat rooms...I'm a newbie to IRC...In Yahoo's chat rooms, people are allowed to talk about whatever they want, even if it is off-topic
[19:58] <ikonia> mnaines: that's understandable
[19:58] <ikonia> !guidelines > mnaines
[19:58] <juliux> jussi01: ok, just for the recors you can reach the ops for the german channels at #ubuntu-de-op
[19:59] <ikonia> mnaines: check out the guidlines ubottu has just sent you in a pm
[19:59] <ikonia> mnaines: also - check /topic in #ubuntu, it's a good starter
[19:59] <ikonia> mnaines: the bottom line is support discussion only, no bad language, and be polite to people
[19:59] <mnaines> I have bot sentry enabled...I can't get IMs from people not on my contact list
[19:59] <Flannel> !guidelines
[19:59] <maco> then you may want to add ubottu
[19:59] <ikonia> !guidelines | mnaines
[19:59] <ikonia> ha
[20:00] <mnaines> I know what the rules are...We went over this yesterday
[20:00] <ikonia> then why are you not respecting them
[20:00] <ikonia> and why are you using being new and not knowing as an excuse
[20:01] <mnaines> ikonia: Maybe I should be the one asking why you're thinking of these rooms as "members-only clubs" where if you don't have Ubuntu or don't talk about Ubuntu, you don't belong
[20:01] <maco> mnaines: #ubuntu-offtopic exists for a reason
[20:01] <ikonia> mnaines: it's not a members only club - it's an ubuntu only support channel
[20:01] <ikonia> mnaines: if you can't deal with that fact - then don't join the channel
[20:01] <ikonia> mnaines: it's that simple - I'm not going to allow last nights ranting continue
[20:01] <mnaines> The reason its so crowded is you have both experienced Ubuntu users and Ubuntu newbies and there's no channel for the newbies to go
[20:02] <ikonia> mnaines: the channel works fine as is
[20:02] <maco> you've got it a bit backwards. that channel is full of newbie questions being answered. advanced questions are the ones that get fewer answers, but then advanced questions tend to just get googled anyway
[20:03] <ikonia> mnaines: anyway - I hope I've made the conditions of using the #ubuntu channel clear now,
[20:04] <ikonia> mnaines: please feel free to return to using it if you feel you can follow the rules of the channel
[20:04] <mnaines> maco, I've always held the belief that there is no such thing as a stupid question, and I was raised to help people regardless...My parents would have puppies if they found out I was turning someone in need away simply because they didn't talk about anything I knew
[20:04] <maco> mnaines: so then help people in there instead of gabbing about your street cred
[20:04] <mnaines> maco, last time I tried that, I got muted because the subject wasn't on-topic
[20:05] <ikonia> mnaines: please feel free to re-join #ubuntu as long as you feel you can abide by the rules
[20:05] <ikonia> mnaines: I only asked you here to make it %100 clear the rules and that you understand them
[20:05] <ikonia> you have acknolwedged you have, it is now your choice if you follow them or not
[20:06] <mnaines> Maybe you should read the rules yourself, especially the one about respecting others...It specifically says "We expect all channel users to treat others with respect and consideration.  This includes people outside the ubuntu project"
[20:06] <maco> i have seen no signs of disrespect
[20:07] <ikonia> mnaines: I have treated you with respect and politley
[20:07] <mnaines> So you don't call turning someone away simply because they don't use Ubuntu a sign of disrespect?
[20:07] <ikonia> I feel it importatnt to be %100 clear with the terms and conditions
[20:07] <ikonia> mnaines: no - that is following the channels topic
[20:07] <ikonia> mnaines: this will not be discussed again
[20:07] <ikonia> mnaines: you have a choice - follow the channel topic/rules - or don't use the channel
[20:07] <ikonia> I'm being to the point as this was gone over in great detail last night
[20:08] <maco> mnaines: let's say you call Dell for computer help...but you've got an HP, not a Dell.  Would you consider it disrespectful for them to tell you to call HP?
[20:08] <mnaines> Oh, geez...Remind me never to come here again...If following the rules is more important than simple common sense and dignity, this is not a place I feel I am going to get adequate help
[20:08] <ikonia> mnaines: it is your choice if you use the channel or not
[20:08] <ikonia> mnaines: I'm just making you %100 aware for the conditions of using the channel
[20:09] <mnaines> Maco, yes...I would expect them to at least give me information about a reputable HP dealer that I could go to
[20:09] <ikonia> mnaines: I think this has been explained clearly now
[20:10] <jussi01> Lads and Ladies, While I am sure you all mean well, its usually best to leave dealing with issues to one or maybe 2 people at a time. too many voices can be confusing and frustrating. PM'ing the op who is chatting to the uuser can be helpful if you feel they are missing something.
[20:10] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu-ops mnaines had the rules of #ubuntu clearly explained
[20:10] <ikonia> if mnaines starts of again, I would suggest removing him from the channel as he appears keen to make an issue
[20:11] <ikonia> (for anyone reading back)
[20:33] <genii> Flannel: mnaines is giving you grief again I see
[20:34] <Flannel> And now he's banned
[20:34] <genii> Was bound to happen, sadly
[20:34] <mnaines> Ok...Now I'm pissed
[20:35] <niko> sorry Flannel
[20:35] <Flannel> niko: for what?
[20:35] <mnaines> I got banned from Ubuntu because I was trying to tell someone the disadvantages to using Vista
[20:35] <niko> for the quiet
[20:35] <Flannel> niko: Oh, you're just faster than I am.  Ninja ops, and all.
[20:36] <mnaines> Now people in that room are IMing me with things like "OMG!  You just got banned for hating Vista?"
[20:37] <ikonia> mnaines: you where explained the topic of the channel quite clearly
[20:37] <ikonia> mnaines: you where asked to stop
[20:37] <ikonia> you continued to argue
[20:37] <mnaines> ikonia: I was trying to explain to someone the disadvantages to using Vista...Its not my fault Flannel didn't want me to talk the guy out of using Vista
[20:37] <ikonia> mnaines: no - you where not
[20:37] <ikonia> mnaines: you where making things up about hardware costs and other random comments
[20:38] <ikonia> mnaines: you where warned about this
[20:38] <mnaines> ikonia: That was based on my own personal experiences
[20:38] <ikonia> mnaines: you where starting a tedious anti-vista rant
[20:38] <ikonia> mnaines: and you know it
[20:38] <ikonia> mnaines: I suggest you take 48 hours out of #ubuntu to think about if you can abide by the rules of the channel one more time, then come back and discuss it with us
[20:39] <mnaines> ikonia: Listen...This conflict arose because Flannel doesn't want me trying to talk someone out of using Vista...I've used it myself, I know what it requires...Don't think I'm stupid because I am not
[20:40] <ikonia> I didn't say you where stupid
[20:40] <mnaines> You're acting like I am
[20:40] <ikonia> I said you where miss-leading someone and in my opinion trying to provoke anti-vista discussion
[20:40] <ikonia> mnaines: you where spoke to less than an hour ago about the topic of #ubuntu - it is Ubuntu support only
[20:40] <mnaines> Misleading?  How is explaining the disadvantages of a particular operating system misleading?
[20:40] <ikonia> mnaines: you're not there to convince him of if he wants vista or not
[20:41] <ikonia> nor to give out random figures as to how much it costs to run a vista PC
[20:41] <mnaines> ikonia: The individual in question was discussing dual-booting Vista and Ubuntu because he needs photoshop for work
[20:41] <ikonia> mnaines: ok - so help him dual boot
[20:41] <ikonia> or offer gimp
[20:41] <mnaines> ikonia, I did offer Gimp, but he said he needs photoshop
[20:42] <ikonia> ok - so help him dual boot and help with wine
[20:42] <mnaines> I asked him how much RAM he had and he said 2GB, and from my own personal experience, the Windows Vista Aero Desktop required at least that much
[20:42] <ikonia> maybe even offer advise that windows may not be the best tool for him
[20:42] <ikonia> that's not ubuntu's concern
[20:42] <ikonia> he wasn't asking for help with windows
[20:42] <ikonia> he was asking for help with ubuntu
[20:42] <ikonia> help him dual boot, point him to ##windows for windows support / advice
[20:42] <mnaines> His original question was how to get GRUB to read the MBR after installing Vista
[20:42] <ikonia> mnaines: ok - so help with that
[20:43] <mnaines> I don't even know that myself...
[20:43] <jussi01> !grub
[20:43] <Flannel> So, let someone else answer it
[20:43] <ikonia> mnaines: then don't comment
[20:43] <ikonia> mnaines: let someone who does know help
[20:43] <mnaines> ikonia: The reason I'm upset is because I feel I got banned for telling someone the disadvantages to a particular program or configuration...Something I have yet to see anyone in that room do
[20:44] <ikonia> mnaines: someone asked for help with grub you asked to see his system spec to see if he could dual boot
[20:44] <ikonia> please
[20:44] <ikonia> mnaines: then you went on telling people about your windows experience and costs
[20:44] <mnaines> I don't ever recommend dual-booting...I'm a tech support guy myself and I have not once even recommended it to any of my clients
[20:45] <ikonia> mnaines: I suggest you take 48 hours out of #ubuntu and think about if you can participate in #ubuntu without becoming an issue
[20:45] <ikonia> mnaines: if you don't recommend it - be quiet and let someone who CAN and WILL help him help it
[20:45] <ikonia> mnaines: I don't support wubi - so I ignore wubi questions unless I'm confident I can resolve them
[20:45] <mnaines> ikonia: Why should I let other people blow sunshine up another person's ringpiece?
[20:45] <ikonia> mnaines: helping someone is not blowing sunshine up someones bottom
[20:46] <ikonia> mnaines: so - I'll make this clear now as it's clear you have your own ajenda
[20:46] <ikonia> mnaines: take 48 hours out of #ubuntu and think about if and how you want to rejoin the channel
[20:46] <ikonia> then come back and discuss it.
[20:46] <mnaines> ikonia: My agenda is telling people the whole truth about a particular product or feature, not trying to talk them into using it...I tell them the whole truth about something then let them decide from there if they want to use it
[20:47] <ikonia> mnaines: then you won't be able to participate in the #ubuntu channel at this time
[20:47] <mnaines> Clearly you guys have never dealt with people like me who actually have enough common sense to let people decide for themselves what they want AFTER they are given all the information they need to make their decision
[20:48] <ikonia> mnaines: please come back if you feel you can abide by the channel rules
[20:48] <mnaines> ikonia, its not that I don't want to abide by the channel rules, its that you guys are being way too strict about these rules...
[20:48] <mnaines> I've never seen people as narrow-minded as you guys
[20:49] <ikonia> mnaines: if you don't like the channel rules, I suggest there are plenty of other channels where you guidence may be more ontopic
[20:49] <mnaines> You guys give new meaning to "my way or the highway"
[20:49] <mnaines> I don't disagree with the channel rules...I disagree with how they are enforced
[20:50] <mnaines> There is a difference
[20:50] <ikonia> mnaines: ok - well please come back if you feel you can abide by how the ubuntu channel rules are managed
[20:50] <mnaines> I'm not saying I can't or won't abide by the rules...I'm saying I feel you guys are being way too strict about the rules...Ease up and let people help if they can
[20:51] <ikonia> mnaines: no
[20:51] <ikonia> mnaines: the channel rules are for ubuntu support only
[20:51] <ikonia> mnaines: that has been made clear to you
[20:51] <ikonia> mnaines: there are other channels available if you feel this is too strict a policy
[20:51] <mnaines> I understand that...But since when did "support" mean selling someone on a particular product or configuration?
[20:52] <ikonia> mnaines: no-one sold him anything. He asked for dual boot help, you offered him gimp, he said he WANTED windows, you went on to tell him, he didn't and the fantasty costs
[20:52] <ikonia> mnaines: anyway - I've made my poisition clear now
[20:52] <ikonia> mnaines: please come back if and when you feel you can abide by the policy
[20:53] <mnaines> I can abide by them...I've already told you that...Its just that I have a totally different way of offering help to people, and it causes conflict wherever I go
[20:54] <ikonia> mnaines: you cannot abide by them currently, - you where told the rules and broke them less than 30 minutes after having them explained
[20:54] <ikonia> mnaines: take 48 hours out and come back and we'll discuss removing the ban then IF you can abide by the rules
[20:55] <mnaines> ikonia, why does it matter?  I can just find ways around the ban...
[20:55] <ikonia> mnaines: no problem, if you chose to do that it will progress with freenode
[20:55] <ikonia> mnaines: but now that you've made that point clear this discussion is over
[20:57] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu-ops mnaines banned 30 minutes after having the rules explained to him. Has an issue in multiple locations with how he offers help. Will review in 48 hours although gut feeling is not positive about users attitude - wants to be an issue
[20:58] <ikonia> be aware in -offtopic
[21:01] <maco> ubottu hates me and jussi01
[21:01] <jussi01> nah, its just the operator
[21:02] <jussi01> :P
[21:02] <maco> then i blame you since you told me what to do :P
[21:02] <jussi01> hehe
[21:02] <ikonia> jussi01 is easy to blame
[21:03] <jussi01> its always my fault...
[21:03] <maco> so um in all seriousness, i told the bot in a PM @register maco <password> and t didnt respond. and then jussi01 tried to do something and it said maco's not recognized user. and then we started scratching our heads
[21:04] <jussi01> maco: relax... We will get it sorted.
[21:04] <maco> i get the impression ubottu has me on /ignore
[21:11] <dragon> howdy folks
[21:12] <ikonia> hello
[21:12] <jussi01> Hiya dragon
[21:12] <dragon> I think !package should point to !packages
[21:12] <jussi01> !package
[21:12] <jussi01> !packages
[21:12] <jussi01> !package is <alias>packages
[21:12] <jussi01> dragon: fixed :)
[21:12] <dragon> jussi01: awesome :)
[21:13] <dragon> see ya around
[21:17] <jussi01> !owner
[21:17] <ikonia> !master
[21:19] <genii> !slave
[21:19] <genii> Hm
[21:19] <jussi01> !no, owner is <reply> This bot is owned by jussi01 and kindly hosted by TwinApex - http://www.twinapex.com - Questions about ubottu should be asked in #ubuntu-bots
[21:19] <jussi01> !owner
[21:19] <jussi01> :)
[21:19] <ikonia> ahhh advert !
[21:20] <jussi01> yeah, as they provide the hosting, its only fair.
[21:20] <ikonia> it's a nice touch
[21:20] <jussi01> And they are an open source company ;)
[21:21] <ikonia> even better
[21:21] <jussi01> ikonia: see: http://www.twinapex.com/solutions/open-source-progaramming-and-systems-integration
[21:24] <jussi01> ikonia: pm
[21:25] <ikonia> yup
[21:31] <ikonia> a remote support technician who doesn't know how to deal with grub ?
[21:33] <maco> maybe he's a windows tech
[21:33] <genii> Hm. !install could use some updating, refers to Dapper
[21:33] <JanC> jussi01: okay, I'm not an op in one of those channels, so I'll leave...  ツ
[21:33] <JanC> (if you need an additional op in one of those channels you can always ask BTW)
[21:33] <JanC> bye ツ
[21:34] <jussi01> JanC: feel free to idle in -irc
[21:34] <jussi01> did I get him?
[21:34] <jpds> jussi01: No.
[21:34] <maco> no
[21:34] <jussi01> :(
[21:55] <jussi01> ok, meh. Im off to bed. nini all
[21:59] <maco> bye
[22:38] <niko> warning on <?DrSatan> is there an ubuntu christian edition channel?
[22:38] <bazhang> yeah saw that
[22:39] <Pricey> mnaines: hasn't PM'd me
[22:39] <bazhang> lucky for you :)
[22:40] <ikonia> Pricey: should he have
[22:40] <Pricey> 21:37:36 < Pricey> mnaines: Available for PM?
[22:40] <Pricey> 21:37:45 < Whitor> H its Vince with SLAP CHOP!
[22:40] <Pricey> 21:37:53 < ejv> i hope he's surrounded by all the useless sh*t he tried to sell, in hell
[22:40] <Pricey> 21:37:54 < mnaines> Pricey, I got Bot Sentry enabled, so I need to IM you first
[22:40] <ikonia> was this today ?
[22:41] <topyli> Pricey: he seems to think you mean AIM :\
[22:41] <topyli> ikonia: just now
[22:41] <ikonia> oh yes
[22:41] <Pricey> ah well, things quietenned down anyway
[22:45] <topyli> carpal tunnel i assume
[22:47] <ikonia> hello McPeter
[22:48] <McPeter> hello
[22:48] <ikonia> how can we help
[22:48] <McPeter> just to look ..
[22:48] <ikonia> McPeter: check out the /topic in the channel
[22:48] <McPeter> yes i see
[22:48] <ikonia> super
[22:48] <McPeter> just to look ..<-- :)
[22:48] <McPeter> i go
[22:55] <Pricey> Do we have to be that quick to pounce on those such as Ubuntu Members?
[22:55] <ikonia> not at all
[22:55] <ikonia> I didn't expect him to leave that quick
[22:55] <Pricey> okies
[22:56] <ikonia> I was about to ask if there was anything specific, but he moved quick
[22:57] <maco> topyli, Pricey: i think he's using pidgin for irc
[22:57] <Pricey> maco: thanks, i'm not too worried, things are quieter now
[22:59]  * genii makes some cookies and prepares a pot of coffee
[23:17] <KB1JWQ> That was me that snagged the flood from Marvin-- sorry about that, thought I was in ##linux. :-(
[23:25] <bazhang> who marvin is doing it in #kubuntu as well
[23:25] <bazhang> err whoa
[23:28] <genii> Mez: Perhaps premature with Marv in #k since he started to explain what his actual issue was. Not that I'm complaining since they were annoying.
[23:29] <Mez> Flood in one channel, make bad in another... kick
[23:29] <genii> I'm all for that