[07:21] <mac_v> !log
[07:21] <ubot4> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
[08:53] <Mark__T> Hey, I just compiled indicator-messages to work with the new seperated libindicator/libindicate. Do I need to do some action for pidging to work with that? (restarting/rebuilding ...)
[09:13] <Mark__T> Okay, found the reason: undefined symbol: indicate_indicator_set_property_icon
[09:13] <Mark__T> in pidgin-libnotify
[09:51] <mac_v> mpt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore/Icons progress icon  , you need to subscribe to the page ;)
[09:53] <Mark__T> SiDi: did you manage to build xfce4-indicator-plugin?
[09:54] <SiDi> Mark__T, hi
[09:54] <SiDi> not really :D
[09:54] <SiDi> Well, i did, the applet works
[09:54] <SiDi> but it doesnt display messages
[09:54] <SiDi> because of no indicator-messages. And this one depends on indicator-applet so i'm back at the start point
[09:57] <Mark__T> SiDi: I have the plugin running, and the 'No indicators' messages is gone because I rebuilt indicator-messages, but pidgin refuses to load pidgin-libnotify plugin
[09:57] <SiDi> lawl
[09:58] <Mark__T> I think I should try {em,tele}pathy
[09:58] <SiDi> i think there are unit tests in one of the indicator packages
[09:58] <Mark__T> SiDi: I get undefined symbol: indicate_indicator_set_property_icon from pidgin-libnotify
[10:00] <Mark__T> I guess I need to talk to kenvandine or ted
[10:12] <SiDi> yeah :/
[10:12] <SiDi> maybe a side effect of the split
[12:03]  * MacSlow -> lunch
[14:27] <dashua> SiDi, notify-osd in the middle of the desktop now?
[14:28] <SiDi> dashua, yeh, im not responsible for that :P
[14:28] <dashua> Ah alright ;)
[14:28] <SiDi> dashua, that's a bit shocking but it might be better than in a corner
[14:28] <SiDi> i dont have an opinion yet :P
[14:28] <dashua> Yeah, I'm indifferent as well.
[14:31] <mac_v> dashua: which type bubble does that? for me all seem on top right
[14:31] <dashua> All notifications now it seems
[14:33] <dashua> Oh nice.  Camera shutter sound in sound-theme-freedesktop 0.4 on screenshot
[14:33] <dashua> Cool
[14:34] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/23031/screenshot_A6RaYJ.png
[14:38] <mac_v> i think i need to *not* update ;p
[15:50] <SiDi> dashua, i know someone who has a notify-osd branch in which you can change the color of the bubble :P
[15:50] <SiDi> To make even sexier screenshots
[15:50] <dashua> Oh, link me please :)
[15:53] <SiDi> (lp:~sidi/notify-osd/xfconf-experimental :P)
[15:53] <SiDi> (but its based on 0.9.16, not 18
[15:54] <dashua> Ok thx
[15:57] <dashua> http://paste.ubuntu.com/260378/
[15:58] <dashua> I need any flags? 
[15:58] <DanRabbit1> is that really going to be the new default behavior?
[15:58] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: yes!
[15:58] <DanRabbit1> ah...
[15:58] <DanRabbit1> I hope there's a preference to put it back.
[15:58] <mac_v> i'm updating to join in on the confusion ;0
[15:59] <DanRabbit1> I mean, yea it's more noticeable
[15:59] <DanRabbit1> but, it's also going to be invasive
[15:59] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: i dont think we will get a pref
[15:59] <DanRabbit1> :(
[15:59] <DanRabbit1> I guess that's what god created hackers for...
[15:59] <SiDi> dashua, Oo
[16:00] <SiDi> dashua, you dont only have this ? give me the whole output please :)
[16:00] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: notify-osd has too many rules , prefs for that would break a lot of stuff
[16:00] <SiDi> DanRabbit1, actually on a pure technical plan, you're less likely to be disturbed by it if its on the middle than if its on the top
[16:00] <SiDi> except during presentations
[16:00] <DanRabbit1> and videos
[16:01] <SiDi> in which case you're likely to have disabled them
[16:01] <SiDi> yeh, videos too
[16:01] <dashua> SiDi, http://paste.ubuntu.com/260379/
[16:01] <DanRabbit1> i don't even know how to disable
[16:01] <SiDi> dashua, EPIC
[16:01] <SiDi> i forgot to push a file :D :D
[16:01] <dashua> Ah
[16:02] <SiDi> pushed 
[16:02] <SiDi> MacSlow, the last diff i gave you is probably wrong then :D
[16:02] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: actually for me this works out great , i use a single right vertical panel , and previously for notification daemon i had the area in the exact same spot... so yah \o/
[16:02] <mac_v> ;p
[16:03] <DanRabbit1> that's why I suggest a pref
[16:03] <MacSlow> SiDi, sorry... very busy atm and not near the gconf/xconf stuff atm
[16:04] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: if keep saying perfs MacSlow will strangle you ;)
[16:04] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: bring it up in ayatana mailing list
[16:04] <SiDi> MacSlow, no problem :P better that way since i forgot a file in the tree
[16:04] <MacSlow> DanRabbit1, listen to mac_v  :)
[16:04] <SiDi> if i add 20 lines of code it'll be a 3000 lines patch :d
[16:05] <SiDi> DanRabbit1, the code for positioning has probably changed A LOT
[16:05] <SiDi> which means setting up a pref would be long
[16:05] <SiDi> and require some code split, probably
[16:05] <DanRabbit1> I'm just saying
[16:05] <DanRabbit1> for me
[16:06] <DanRabbit1> I'm going to block the update
[16:06] <DanRabbit1> We need one of these things: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RU2A985UKbY/SOrPTW4FZ4I/AAAAAAAABnw/b4aspUNuhfk/s400/Picture+6.png
[16:06] <DanRabbit1> the little desktop, I mean
[16:09] <SiDi> DanRabbit1, if there are MANY complaints about it post release, feel free to bug me ~1 or 2 months before 10.04 feature freeze ;P
[16:10] <DanRabbit1> haha... why wait for tomorrow?
[16:10] <SiDi> because i have tons of bugs to fix in other apps :P
[16:10] <DanRabbit1> SiDi: have you blogged about the change?
[16:10] <SiDi> about which ? i'm not a notify-osd dev, i just like messing with it :P
[16:11] <DanRabbit1> ah, well whoever decided it would look better in the middle of the screen should blog about why it's better
[16:11] <SiDi> because it doesnt cover your apps toolbar
[16:12] <SiDi> for instance DanRabbit1, with the top right positioning, firefox's search entry was covered
[16:12] <DanRabbit1> ah, I think a better fix would have been a close button.
[16:12] <SiDi> which was preventing from seeing what you write
[16:12] <DanRabbit1> SiDi: you can click through.
[16:12] <SiDi> close button == need to move the mouse too, and to _accurately_ click on a part of the bubble
[16:13] <SiDi> yeh but usually you use keyboard shortcuts
[16:13] <SiDi> so the entry is focused but covered by a bubble
[16:13] <DanRabbit1> it could just show on mouseover
[16:13] <DanRabbit1> the close button I mean
[16:13] <SiDi> if it covers content in the middle you can scroll up/down in almost all apps to move the content you wanna read
[16:13] <SiDi> with both mouse & keyboard
[16:13] <SiDi> but the close button requires to hover the bubble, aim a corner, and click
[16:14] <SiDi> while with n-o we can prevent a bubble from disturbing just by hovering it
[16:14] <DanRabbit1> yea, I dunno
[16:14] <DanRabbit1> I just disgree with the whole behavior of notify-osd sometimes
[16:14] <DanRabbit1> It's confusing
[16:14] <DanRabbit1> and weird.
[16:14] <SiDi> Yes, it's weird
[16:15] <DanRabbit1> and, I'm not a total computer noob
[16:15] <DanRabbit1> my mom would explode.
[16:15] <SiDi> but i think that once the old habits are gone, n-o will be more agreable than the previous ones
[16:15] <SiDi> DanRabbit1, iits because you're not a 'noob' :) you got habits
[16:15] <SiDi> i love being able to royally ignore notifications when i focus on something else
[16:15] <SiDi> and i love being notified about whats going on in my computer
[16:16] <SiDi> and n-o allows me both much more easily than notification-daemon with its down timeouts and actions
[16:16] <DanRabbit1> Yea, notify OSD definitely needs to get actions
[16:16] <DanRabbit1> that was convenient
[16:17] <SiDi> NO
[16:17] <SiDi> definately, no :P
[16:17] <SiDi> i was so sick of things opening without my consent when i wasnt aiming the close button correctly
[16:17] <SiDi> notifications are for notifying
[16:17] <DanRabbit1> adjust your mouse :p
[16:17] <SiDi> if they want actions, there's the messaging applet
[16:17] <DanRabbit1> which is bad juju
[16:17] <ScottK> SiDi: That's one view.  It doesn't seem widely shared so far.
[16:18] <SiDi> ScottK, people dont like things that respect semantics :D
[16:18] <DanRabbit1> messaging applet is all about bad :(
[16:18] <DanRabbit1> we need less clutter, not more.
[16:20] <ScottK> SiDi: Personally I'm not a fan of "Ha! I'm going to tell you about something, but not actually let you deal with it", but I understand this isn't going to change.
[16:25] <DanRabbit1> ScottK: I agree fully
[16:26] <DanRabbit1> That was the killer feature that got me to switch to Banshee
[16:26] <ScottK> DanRabbit1: It's also a settled issue for notify-osd and Gnome in Ubuntu.
[16:26] <ScottK> There's no point in rediscussing it.
[16:26] <DanRabbit1> I know :(
[16:42] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: FWIW , it protested against it when proposed in the ayatana mailing list :)
[16:43] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: this was proposed a long time back , you can check out the discussion in archives
[16:44] <mac_v> s/it/I
[17:07] <djsiegel__> DBO lamalex DanRabbit1: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/08/26/losing-my-religion/
[17:13] <ScottK> He has some valid point, but is fundamentally wrong.  Design is no different than code in these regards.
[17:32] <DBO> morning djsiegel__ 
[17:33] <DBO> is otto around? :)
[17:35] <djsiegel__> DBO: he's coming, his nick is chaotic
[17:35] <DBO> awesome
[17:35] <chaotic> DBO: hey
[17:36] <DBO> hey chaotic :)
[17:36] <chaotic> DBO: I've just realised I never got back to you on that last email - really sorry about that
[17:36] <DBO> its okay
[17:36] <chaotic> DBO: been super busy
[17:36] <chaotic> how you doing?
[17:36] <DBO> that project has been stalled by my being super busy also
[17:37] <DBO> I have been alright, enjoying my new job, loving working with canonical :)
[17:37] <chaotic> DBO: cool
[17:37] <DBO> so I have a challenge for you
[17:37] <chaotic> DBO: so what can I help with?
[17:37] <chaotic> DBO: uh huh
[17:37] <DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/wpa_active_window.png
[17:38] <DBO> that is the new look of the icons of the window picker applet
[17:38] <DBO> they are bigger in general
[17:38] <DBO> which means they are no longer actually gtk buttons
[17:38] <DBO> but I need a method of identifying the active window from the not active ones
[17:39] <DBO> you can kinda see what I came up with, but I am not really happy with it
[17:39] <DBO> are you familiar with the window picker applet from UNR?
[17:39] <chaotic> DBO: in that png it's the one in the middle right?
[17:39] <DBO> yes
[17:40] <chaotic> DBO: not really familiar
[17:40] <DBO> ok, well the philosophy is really simple, there is an icon for every window. These icons are height of the panel (24px) and are packed next to each other. There is a 3px border on each side we can play with also.
[17:41] <chaotic> DBO: deselected could go to greyscale?
[17:41] <chaotic> DBO: they look a little blurry - are they scaled?
[17:41] <DBO> unfortunately yes
[17:41] <chaotic> DBO: ah
[17:41] <DBO> there is no good way to get quality icons 100% of the time :(
[17:42] <DBO> I am working on that problem in another one of my projects, but it isn't ready yet
[17:42] <chaotic> DBO: know what you mean
[17:43] <chaotic> can you use a highlight colour behind?
[17:43] <DBO> sure
[17:44] <DBO> just keep in mind sometimes that icon can be pretty much wholly consuming of the 24x24 area leaving only the 3px borders...
[17:44] <DBO> so I am also dimming the opacity of the other icons, but its hard to notice that...
[17:44] <chaotic> no I see that
[17:45] <chaotic> can deselected become greyscale?
[17:45] <DBO> I could do that
[17:46] <DBO> Im pretty sure I can make anything you can dream up happen :)
[17:46] <DBO> thats why its a challenge, you dream up the awesome, I make it happen
[17:46] <chaotic> DBO: hahaha
[17:47] <chaotic> DBO: can you send me some full screenshots so I can see it in context?
[17:48] <DBO> yes
[17:48] <DBO> let me put on a UNR theme also
[17:53] <DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/UNR-wpa-screen.png
[17:54] <DBO> chaotic, ^^
[17:54] <chaotic> DBO: looking
[17:54] <chaotic> DBO: hmmm, does get lost a bit
[17:55] <DBO> yeah
[17:55] <chaotic> DBO: that mail icon stands out a lot - how come that's highlighted so much
[17:56] <DBO> on the right?
[17:56] <DBO> no idea, ignore that...
[17:56] <DBO> thats not really part of this issue :)
[17:56] <chaotic> DBO: no, I know but they background colour makes a big difference there
[17:57] <DBO> it does make a difference, we could do something like that
[17:57] <DBO> however I really was hoping to be more subtle :P
[17:58] <DBO> excuse me for a moment, I need to restart my x server
[17:58] <DBO> maximus always screws up my windows...
[18:00] <DBO> back
[18:04] <chaotic> DBO: I'll have a think, have to leave shortly I'm afraid
[18:04] <DBO> chaotic, thats all I ask :)
[18:07] <DBO> chaotic, one more thing, if you think it should be animated or something like that, I can do that too.
[19:20] <djsiegel__> mrooney|w: any idea which project this affects? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/344228
[19:20] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 344228 in hundredpapercuts "Deleting an image that's used as a desktop wallpaper removed it as a wallpaper without notice" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
[19:20] <djsiegel__> gnome-settings-manager or something?
[19:20] <mrooney|w> well, I guess it would depend on how you want to fix it
[19:21] <mrooney|w> nautilus handles deleting it I believe, so you might want a warning there
[19:21] <djsiegel__> gnome-control-center ?
[19:21] <djsiegel__> nah
[19:21] <djsiegel__> the user should be able to download a photo to their desktop
[19:21] <djsiegel__> set it as the background
[19:21] <djsiegel__> and delete the photo
[19:21] <djsiegel__> deleting a file should not change you desktop
[19:21] <djsiegel__> users don't think how the software works
[20:28] <Mark__T> SiDi: ping
[20:28] <SiDi> pong
[20:28] <SiDi> average lag : 6000ms
[20:28] <SiDi> packet loss : 0%
[20:28] <Mark__T> do yo still have the pidgin error I pasted here in your history?
[20:29] <SiDi> hm, no ? :P
[20:29] <SiDi> well, its somewhere in my history... but i dont even know in which browser
[20:30] <Mark__T> just the missing symbol thing I pasted in this channel
[20:30] <SiDi> do you want me to search for it ?
[20:30] <SiDi> (and, which paste site was it ?)
[20:31] <Mark__T> it was a oneliner in here, me explaining why pidgin-libnotify doesn't work
[20:33] <SiDi> oh
[20:35] <SiDi> Mark__T, i cant find it in my history
[20:36] <Mark__T> np, tomorrow I need to send it to me from the box I try to run latest indicator foo
[20:37] <Mark__T> so that I have that information at hand when kenvandine or tedg wake up
[20:39] <SiDi> :)
[20:59] <lamalex> djsiegel_: that would definitely be nautilus
[20:59] <djsiegel_> lamalex: I don't know...
[20:59] <lamalex> seems like it'd be an easy fix too, just copy the photo to a private nautilus directory ~/.local/share/nautilus/ or something, and use that
[21:02] <djsiegel_> right, but the piece of software that would make the copy
[21:02] <djsiegel_> unfortunately, there needs to be a background API
[21:02] <djsiegel_> right now, I think individual apps just set the gconf key
[21:03] <djsiegel_> but something watches that key for changes
[21:03] <djsiegel_> does nautilus draw the desktop wallpaper?
[21:03] <lamalex> nautilus draws it yes
[21:03] <lamalex> well it would just always be $XDG_DATA_HOME/nautilus/wallpaper
[21:03] <lamalex> what would be *the* wallpaper file
[21:04] <lamalex> s/what/that
[21:04] <lamalex> when you set new wallpaper it would get copied there
[21:04] <lamalex> unrelated to the old file
[21:06]  * lamalex thinks that ^ is a decent solution
[21:07] <djsiegel_> well, there's a lot of push behind being able to edit the current image
[21:07] <djsiegel_> see my user story on the bug
[21:09] <lamalex> I don't think that's right, if you edit the image you should have to reset it, or expect that if you delete it, it goes away
[21:11] <djsiegel_> hmm
[21:11] <djsiegel_> I think editing an image is a more advanced action than deleting or moving a file
[21:11] <djsiegel_> novice users will delete and move files often
[21:12] <lamalex> god these fscking notifications are driving me nuts
[21:12] <djsiegel_> but if you open an image and edit it
[21:12] <djsiegel_> haha
[21:12] <djsiegel_> I am updating now
[21:19] <mac_v> lamalex: me too! seems totally weird when a mail notification pops up in the center!
[21:20] <lamalex> mac_v: you should 2nd my post to the ayatana list
[21:20] <lamalex> every time one pops up ive got like a 3 second "wtf is this?" period
[21:25] <mac_v> lamalex: FWIW , i did protest the minute it was proposed > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00106.html
[21:25] <lamalex> mac_v: yah, i think i remember
[21:26] <mac_v> lamalex: but when its not something they are going to listen to ... its like why bother! uninstall and use mumbles ;)
[21:26] <DanRabbit1> djsiegel_: I agree with that article quite a bit. Sometimes you need a little dictatorship. The democracy should be in choosing who's in charge.
[21:27] <mac_v> DanRabbit1: when you install mumbles , it will block a lot ot notify-osd bubbles :)
[21:27] <DanRabbit1> mumbles?
[21:28] <mac_v> yeah , mumbles , it uses old notification daemon
[21:29] <DanRabbit1> so we can use actions and that?
[21:29] <DanRabbit1> I'll check it out.
[21:29] <DanRabbit1> I have to go make lunch right now though :D
[22:03] <popey> so i take it the middle of the right side of the screen for the notification bubble is intentional, i dont need to file a bug?
[22:03] <DanRabbit1> yea, it's intentional :/
[22:04] <popey> how [insert_word_I_havent_thought_of_yet]
[22:04] <DanRabbit1> yea, that was my reaction too
[22:04] <lamalex> seems to be the concensus
[22:05] <DanRabbit1> I'm glad you agree as well, lamalex
[22:05] <lamalex> there's a thread going on the list
[22:05] <lamalex> DanRabbit1: how's that tictactoe icon coming
[22:05] <lamalex> :)
[22:07] <DanRabbit1> give me one second
[22:07] <DanRabbit1> thoughts? http://elementary-project.com/abuse/tictactoe.svg
[22:08] <SiDi> DanRabbit1, write a hacker symbol with o's ? :D
[22:09] <lamalex> the triple Os should have a line through them, that's a winning move!
[22:09] <DanRabbit1> I was thinking along those lines, but it just didn't look good.
[22:09] <popey> SiDi: I was thinking the same thing!
[22:09] <lamalex> DanRabbit1: you should move the top X to the top left and block the O
[22:09] <popey> the hacker logo but in a game of O and X
[22:09] <lamalex> and leave it asymatric
[22:09] <lamalex> asymmetric
[22:10] <DanRabbit1> okay
[22:12] <DanRabbit1> let me check my french fries real fast :D
[22:14] <lamalex> yum
[22:17] <DanRabbit1> they're ready
[22:17] <DanRabbit1> I'll brb
[22:50] <mrooney|w> djsiegel1: do you think the papercutters team could be unsubscibed from all papercut bugs, and let that up to individual members if they want to?
[22:50] <mrooney|w> it is too much volume for me and is making it hard for me to process the actual bugs I am subscribed to