[01:01] <maco> JontheEchidna: theyre not translated in upstream trunk yet?
[01:04] <JontheEchidna> wouldn't matter; we're using 4.3 translations
[01:05] <JontheEchidna> I suppose in theory one could take the translations for each language from trunk and manually apply them in rosetta...
[01:05] <JontheEchidna> that'd be a ton of work, though
[01:15] <neversfelde> how to specifiy the location of the series file and the dir for patches with quilt?
[01:16] <neversfelde> I can set the dir for patches with QUILT_PATCHES, but then the series file is in that, too
[01:16] <ryanakca> neversfelde: export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches
[01:16] <ryanakca> Oh, nevermind then
[01:16] <neversfelde> :)
[01:16] <ryanakca> So you want to have the series file and the patches dir in two different spot?
[01:17] <neversfelde> I am trying to patch amarok to make the lyric script work again and the series file is in debian/patches and the patches are in debian/patches/kubuntu
[01:17] <ryanakca> neversfelde: CDBS?
[01:17] <neversfelde> yes
[01:18] <ryanakca> Maybe add something to a pre-patch rule to make symlinks from debian/patches to debian/patches/* ... and then find debian/patches -type -l -exec rm {} \;   in clean to remove them.
[01:19] <neversfelde> mhh, I hope there is an easyer way to do it
[01:19] <neversfelde> s/easyer/easier
[01:20] <ryanakca> neversfelde: Or you can quilt import debian/patches/kubuntu/*  and then for i in debian/patches/kubuntu/*; do quilt delete $i; done in clean
[01:27] <ryanakca> neversfelde: Worse comes to worse, you could try asking one of the devs on http://savannah.nongnu.org/project/memberlist.php?group=quilt
[01:27] <neversfelde> ryanakca: thanks, I will probably do, if no one here knows the answer.
[01:37] <JontheEchidna> I do: ln -s debian/patches patches
[01:38] <JontheEchidna> then remove the symlink once I'm done
[01:43] <neversfelde> ah, yes. The quilt manpage mentioned something about symlinks
[01:43] <neversfelde> JontheEchidna: thank you
[01:43] <JontheEchidna> you're welcome
[02:39]  * Sput notes that Quassel has colored nicks
[02:39]  * Sput also doesn't understand what "prone to disconnects" is supposed to mean
[02:39] <Sput> meh.
[02:46] <Sput> ah, also I don't see what's unconvential about /exec
[02:58] <JontheEchidna> oh, colored nicks are just not on by default
[02:59] <JontheEchidna> the thing with the /exec is that there's a lack of scripts, like for /media and /audio and such
[03:00] <neversfelde> bug 409407  needs a sponsor
[03:00] <Sput> well, that could be helped if someone wrote them. and for amarok, we ship one
[03:01] <Sput> actually it'd be trivial to port konvi's script, just exchange their dbus calls by printf :)
[03:01] <JontheEchidna> and if they exist, none are terribly discoverable/have conventional commands
[03:03] <Sput> well, that's a question of defaults, trivially to be changed if need be (and as usual we're input for input, suggestions and contributions)
[03:04]  * maco hugs Sput
[03:04] <maco> 0.5 netsplit detection rox!
[03:04] <neversfelde> I like the new colors in quassel
[03:04] <Sput> maco: yeah, and I think the couple bugs it still has will be fixed soonish :)
[03:05] <Sput> ignore list stuff will get a better UI too, we didn't manage to get that part fully done before FF
[03:05] <Sput> but seezer is busy working on that stuff
[03:06] <maco> would a feasible feature request be to have people-buffers be greyed out based on their online status instead of their online-and-in-same-channel-as-you status?
[03:07] <Sput> also, something I agree isn't terribly discoverable yet (until we write docs for it) is the fact that Quassel is fully styleable via QSS stylesheets, we've extended it a bit to allow full styling of the ChatView
[03:07] <Sput> maco: it's not too trivial to determine the online status of a nick if you don't share a channel
[03:07] <Sput> we could probably do periodic /ISON though
[03:08] <maco> i saw the QSS import box
[03:08] <Sput> IRC sucks a bit in that respect :)
[03:08] <maco> but i dont know the difference between QSS and CSS
[03:08] <Sput> QSS is a Qt thingy
[03:08] <maco> so i decided to leave it alone for now
[03:09] <Sput> for testing, we ship a stylesheet (m4yer.qss in the datadir or /data in the source dir) that changes the default colors to something that looks much more like the old Quassel
[03:09] <Sput> plus a few fancy things, like bold nick in highlights
[03:10] <Sput> we're still looking for a good default stylesheet and will probably ship some more (jussi01 has a nice one for dark themes), but again, this is trivial stuff that will be done over the next couple weeks
[03:11] <Sput> http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/stylesheet.html is the Qt docs for that, but we did some extensions for styling the chatview (depending on message type, status etc) which have yet to be documented properly
[03:12] <Sput> http://tinyurl.com/nf8bzx is the default stylesheet, gives you an idea how that looks like in practice
[03:13] <Sput> in addition, you can use all the features Qt has for styling its widget... with some talented designer (which I as a partial color blind am definitely not) one could do really fancy stuff
[03:14] <maco> cool
[03:15] <Sput> anyway, I need sleep...
[03:26] <neversfelde> koffice 2.1 beta1 is now for jaunty in the staging ppa. I cannot test it, so would be great if a jaunty user can try it
[05:34] <ScottK> Opened my first lzma archive with ark just now \o/
[06:20] <vorian> yay
[06:20] <vorian> that is good news
[07:33] <jussi01> Can anyone confirm this bug still exists in karmic? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pioneers/+bug/375745
[07:33] <jussi01> please :)
[10:11] <markey> hmm, something is constantly accessing my HDD
[10:12] <markey> it's not nepomuk (disabled)
[10:12] <markey> what else could it be?
[10:12] <markey> ah, maybe it was nepomuk :) seems to have stopped now
[14:05] <ScottK> NCommander: We're past FF now.  Can kdeplasma-addons and packagekit get some armel love now?
[14:06] <glatzor> ScottK, for sure. I will recreate the disable werror patch hopefully tomorrow.
[14:07] <ScottK> glatzor: Glad to hear it.
[14:07] <ScottK> NCommander: I guess that leaves kdeplasma-addons for you.
[14:31] <davmor2> Riddell: latest live cd isn't showing install in the folderview instead I get home and trash
[14:34] <ScottK> davmor2: He's offline until Sunday PM.
[14:35] <davmor2> ah
[14:35] <davmor2> latest live cd isn't showing install in the folderview instead I get home and trash :)
[14:37] <ryanakca> Odd, can someone confirm that the arrows are inversed on the desktop cube effect? Ctrl-F11 should zoom you out. Then left arrow would presumably bring you to the desktop on the left.... but it takes you to the one on the right
[14:38] <ryanakca> Sure, it spins the cube to the left, but I still find it counter-intuitive.
[14:41] <ryanakca> seele: What is the usability point of view on it? ... Should the left arrow move on the desktop cube switch to the next desktop to the left, or spin the cube to the left so that you move to the desktop on the right?
[14:41] <seele> depends on if the user likes inverted mice or not ;)
[14:42] <maco> haha this is like when my mom tells me to scroll up so she can read farther down...she means scroll down, but the PAGE moves up so....
[14:42] <seele> i think left should mean left. if you click left then you see left
[14:43]  * ryanakca nods
[14:43] <ryanakca> Is it worth a patch to k-d-s?
[14:48] <ScottK> What was the replacement for gtk-qt-engine?
[14:52] <JontheEchidna> QtCurve for Oxygen-looking gtk, kcm-gtk for configuring gtk look'n'feel in KDE
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> the latter really just controlling widget style selection and fonts
[14:58] <ScottK> Thanks.
[14:59] <ScottK> txwikinger_work: You were going to update ichthux-meta to fix ^^^ remember?
[14:59] <ScottK> Do you need sponsoring?
[14:59] <txwikinger_work> Hi ScottK
[14:59] <ScottK> Hi txwikinger_work
[14:59] <txwikinger_work> Sorry for that.. I did not get to it yet
[14:59] <txwikinger_work> crazy week
[15:00] <txwikinger_work> You need that urgent, right?
[15:00] <ScottK> OK, well that's what's keeping gtk-qt-engine/-kde4 in NBS, so we need to get it done.
[15:00] <ScottK> It's not a crisis, but it should get done soon.
[15:00] <txwikinger_work> ok.
[15:00] <txwikinger_work> I have it already very high priority on my list
[15:01] <txwikinger_work> ScottK: is there bug for it in launchpad?
[15:02] <ScottK> Great.
[15:02] <ScottK> txwikinger_work: I didn't look.  I found it on the NBS list: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/gtk-qt-engine-kde4
[15:02]  * JontheEchidna files FFe for userconfig
[15:02] <txwikinger_work> ok.. that helps too .. thanks
[15:05] <ScottK> txwikinger_work: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/kmplayer-konq-plugins too.
[15:07] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: oh you need an FFe now? damn i was hoping it'd get in yesterday. ok then i should fix that bug so you can just upload a 0.9 version
[15:08] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: vorian can approve that when it's ready.
[15:08] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: would have needed an FFe yesterday, but it's not that big of a deal
[15:09] <JontheEchidna> I'll let you make 0.9 before continuing, though ;-)
[15:48] <ScottK> What do we have to do to make is so KDE knows ark can deal with lzma and xz files now?
[15:48] <ScottK> k-d-s change?
[15:52] <JontheEchidna> ark's .desktop file should advertise that
[15:53] <ScottK> Ah.
[15:53] <ScottK> So we should fix that when we package 4.3.1.
[15:54] <ScottK> I didn't confirm xz works, but lzma does.
[15:57] <ScottK> Anyone else missing channel icons on karmic or jaunty-backports quassel?
[15:57] <smarter> I do
[15:57] <JontheEchidna> Looking at the desktop, it does advertise support for the lzma mimetype already
[15:57] <smarter> on karmic
[15:57] <JontheEchidna> what mimetype is .xz?
[15:58] <smarter> JontheEchidna: application/x-xz
[15:59] <smarter> see http://tukaani.org/xz/xz-file-format-1.0.4.txt for more infos
[16:00] <ScottK> OK, well when I try to open a .lzma file, KDE always asks me what app should open it.
[16:00] <ScottK> smarter: Would you please try my updated quassel in my PPA?
[16:00] <smarter> ScottK: sure
[16:01] <ScottK> Thanks.
[16:04] <ScottK> Mayb it's some path thing as I have the icons on Jaunty.
[16:10] <ScottK> Anyone got news I should pass on the the release team meeting?
[16:28] <smarter> ScottK: the icons are still missing
[16:28] <ScottK> smarter: OK.  It's weird then.
[16:28] <ScottK> Sput: ^^ Suggestions?
[16:28] <smarter> (the one which should be at the left of the channel name in the buffer view right?)
[16:28] <ScottK> Yep
[16:29] <ScottK> Except we don't use the term buffer anymore because maco didn't like it.
[16:29] <smarter> :)
[16:30] <maco> ther's actually just not columns with headings now
[16:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: I noticed kopete won't go in the systray by default ?
[16:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: means than closing the window closes the app ???
[16:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: seems irrelevant for an IM app imho
[16:32] <Tonio_> ScottK: was this discussed before ?
[16:33] <ryanakca> Tonio_: it works here... is there a setting that got disabled somewheres?
[16:33] <ScottK> Tonio_: It's agateau's messaging indicator being on by default for testing.
[16:33] <Tonio_> ryanakca: yep
[16:33] <Tonio_> ScottK: which is nice, but why messaging indicator would imply no systray ?
[16:34] <ScottK> Tonio_: Talk to agateau.
[16:34] <Tonio_> ScottK: yeah I would like to understand
[16:34] <Tonio_> agateau: ping ? ;)
[16:34] <agateau> ScottK: you like to be deaf some times, don't you?
[16:34] <ScottK> agateau: I don't recall the details.
[16:34] <agateau> ScottK: didn't I tell yesterday that I had nothing to do with the systray?
[16:35] <agateau> ScottK: I wrote a new plugin for Kopete to show in the message indicators
[16:35] <ScottK> agateau: The problem appeared when your patch landed.  I'm certain you didn't intend it.
[16:35] <smarter> isn't it a bug?
[16:35] <ScottK> agateau: I did forget you said that though.
[16:35] <agateau> ScottK: Riddell integrated it in kubuntu-default-settings,
[16:35] <Tonio_> ScottK: the systray thing was disabled on purpose by Riddell
[16:35] <ScottK> Oh.
[16:35] <smarter> checking/unchecking the kopete option to make the sys icon doesn't do anything
[16:35] <Tonio_> ScottK: nothing to do with a patch or bug or so :)
[16:35] <ScottK> OK
[16:35] <ScottK> agateau: Sorry about that.
[16:35] <smarter> I'm pretty sure there's a bug somewhere
[16:36] <Tonio_> just it was done in the same time, and except there is a technical requirement for this, no systray is just a nonsense for an app you want to be silently started and hidden most of the time :)
[16:36] <smarter> Tonio_: I think it's part of the philosophy that the systray is Evil and you should use virtual desktops instead: http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?219-the-aristocratic-desktop-part-3-there-s-no-tray-icon-in-gnome
[16:36] <smarter> since it's concept easier to grasp for newbies
[16:36] <Tonio_> smarter: part of that philosophy sucks
[16:36] <smarter> *a concept
[16:37] <smarter> :]
[16:37] <agateau> smarter: not exactly
[16:37] <Tonio_> smarter: any noob KNOWS about the systray and ignores about virtual desktops
[16:37] <agateau> The whole idea is to avoid cluttering your bar with multiple tiny icons
[16:37] <agateau> The GNOME implementation for example, hides Pidgin systray icon,
[16:37] <Tonio_> agateau: which is fine, too many apps going there, *but* some apps should I think
[16:37] <Tonio_> and among any other one, the IM should
[16:38] <agateau> But closing Pidgin window does not stop it,
[16:38] <Tonio_> agateau: great, then how do you get it back ?
[16:38] <agateau> You can bring it back from the message indicator menu
[16:38] <Tonio_> agateau: what if I want to talk to one of my contacts ?
[16:38] <Tonio_> and not respond ?
[16:39] <agateau> the menu always contain an entry per application + 0-n entries for indicators
[16:39] <agateau> so you can click on the application entry, and bring back the contact list window
[16:39] <smarter> oh, that's interesting
[16:39] <Tonio_> agateau: in fact you have a systray app that concatenates systray apps ? :)
[16:39] <agateau> Tonio_: sort of :)
[16:39] <smarter> might work more than the use of virtual desktop ploum suggested
[16:39] <Tonio_> agateau: oki doki, fine with me then
[16:39] <agateau> Tonio_: but it gives more power to the app
[16:40] <Tonio_> agateau: where is my message indicator right now ?
[16:40] <Tonio_> I can't see it
[16:40] <agateau> But...
[16:40] <smarter> Tonio_: it's a plasmoid, I'm looking for it too ;)
[16:40] <Tonio_> smarter: ARGH !!!!!!!!!!
[16:40] <agateau> I am not sure Kopete behaves the way I described it now,
[16:40] <smarter> Tonio_: plasma-widget-indicatordisplay
[16:40] <Tonio_> agateau: hum, is that plasmoid in the systray or is that a desktop plasmoid ?
[16:41] <smarter> it should go in the systray
[16:41] <agateau> Tonio_: it only shows an icon, you can click on it to display a menu
[16:41] <smarter> http://kdedevelopers.org/node/4043
[16:41] <agateau> If an event occurs, the icon changes
[16:41] <Tonio_> agateau: yeah okay right, just that it'll grab a lot more space than if going to the systray :)
[16:41] <Tonio_> just my opinion ;)
[16:41] <Tonio_> I'm not a fan of plasmoids going to the bar
[16:42] <agateau> Tonio_: true
[16:42] <agateau> Tonio_: KDE4.4 has support for embedding plasmoids in the tray
[16:42] <agateau> but not KDE4.3
[16:42] <smarter> finally :p
[16:42] <Tonio_> agateau: I think the new kde systray has support for plasmoids
[16:42] <Tonio_> agateau: okay so when 4.4 is there we can put it there then
[16:42] <Tonio_> fine with me
[16:42] <agateau> yes
[16:42] <smarter> I still think it should be merged with KDE indicator thingy
[16:42] <Tonio_> agateau: thanks for the explanation :)
[16:43] <smarter> we don't need two types of indicators, that just complicates stuff
[16:43] <agateau> smarter: you mean the (i) icon?
[16:43] <smarter> yes
[16:43] <Tonio_> agateau: btw, what about the notification and jobs thing of kde ?
[16:43] <Tonio_> agateau: will we drop it, leave it in front of your message indicator ?
[16:43] <smarter> Tonio_: that's what I'm talkin about ;)
[16:43] <agateau> Tonio_: that's what smarter is talking about
[16:43] <agateau> :)
[16:43] <smarter> :p
[16:44] <Tonio_> agateau: oups, I didn't read smarter, sorry :)
[16:44]  * Tonio_ gives a kiss to smarter
[16:44] <smarter> :p
[16:44] <Tonio_> yeah, I'm going that can become a mess in the meantime
[16:44] <agateau> I am not totally happy with this as well
[16:45] <agateau> but I lacked time to work on a more integrated solution
[16:45] <Tonio_> so now we have notifications for messages and notifications for the rest of the system....
[16:45] <smarter> yep :/
[16:45] <Tonio_> and we don't have a decent bluetooth framework....
[16:45]  * Tonio_ think the priority should be given in doing what misses and not changing what works
[16:46] <smarter> too bad the ubuntu desktop team didn't work with KDE for a common solution
[16:46] <Tonio_> at least to start with
[16:46] <agateau> Tonio_: the idea is that indicators are long term information, whereas notifications are ephemeral
[16:46] <agateau> smarter: this is a common solution:
[16:46] <agateau> Start pidgin,
[16:46] <agateau> it will show up in the plasmoid
[16:46] <Tonio_> agateau: I think it's up to the user to decide what is ephemeral and what is not :)
[16:46] <Tonio_> my girlfriend pings me in kopete, that's important
[16:47] <agateau> Tonio_: sure,
[16:47] <Tonio_> smarter pings me on konversation : I don't give a sh*t :)
[16:47] <Tonio_> agateau: seriously, trying new things is fine
[16:47] <agateau> In this case you will get an ephemeral notification *and* an entry in the indicator
[16:47] <Tonio_> I'm just sick of kde right now
[16:47] <smarter> Tonio_: meh :p
[16:47] <Tonio_> and I'm serious
[16:47] <Tonio_> changing and reengeneering what already works
[16:47] <agateau> if the notification goes away, you don't miss your gf, thanks to the indicator
[16:47] <maco> gnome tme?
[16:48] <Tonio_> improving desktop effects when it works
[16:48] <Tonio_> 4.3 is there and there is still no network or bluetooth manager
[16:48] <Tonio_> KDE is not listening to their users I'm affraid
[16:48] <smarter> agateau: getting both a notification and an indication seems overkill
[16:48] <agateau> smarter: you can configure this
[16:49] <agateau> smarter: you can disable one or the other or both
[16:49] <smarter> won't that makes two popups appear for each message?
[16:49] <Tonio_> I mean attaching activities to VD is nice, but well... I'd like the basics to be taken care of, and I'm tired of that beeing a standard status in kde for years now...
[16:50] <agateau> smarter: no, the indicator does not show popups
[16:50] <agateau> s/indicator/plasmoid/
[16:50] <smarter> okay
[16:50] <agateau> smarter: it just changes its icon
[16:51] <Tonio_> agateau: man can configure things, but really, really, really usability experts should be in the process there
[16:51] <smarter> so the user has to know that when notifications disappear from the (i) icon he has to click on the mail icon?
[16:51] <Tonio_> agateau: what does seele think about all that ?
[16:51] <Tonio_> cause this can really go to the better or the real mess imho :)
[16:51] <agateau> Tonio_: don't know :/
[16:52] <agateau> smarter: I agree having two indicators is confusing
[16:52] <Tonio_> changing this is really "touchy" (sorry for my french)
[16:52] <agateau> smarter: the quick (n'dirty) solution is to patch away the (i)
[16:52] <agateau> so that applications are always visible
[16:52] <agateau> but it's quite a touchy change, as Tonio_ said
[16:52] <agateau> s/applications/notifications/
[16:53] <smarter> well, some notifications(like kopete) don't disappear by themselve already
[16:53] <smarter> which is also why I don't see the point of the indicator
[16:53] <Tonio_> hum... I'm not against the concept, but it looks to me that the development was performed following the general idea
[16:53] <Tonio_> and now it's done we discover the problems coming with it and only starting to think about what to do with that...
[16:54] <agateau> smarter: Canonical Design team thinks permanent notifications are bad, because they clutter your screen and force you to act
[16:54] <ScottK> I think there is sense in the concept, but the current implementation seems to me like since it was done it Gnome first, we stuck with some things that aren't ideal for KDE.
[16:54]  * smarter is not really a fan of Canonical Design team :P
[16:54] <agateau> smarter: that's the reason behind the message indicator: provide a non-obstrusive way to present permanent information
[16:54] <smarter> okay
[16:54] <agateau> :)
[16:54] <Tonio_> and I'm a bit shocked to read that the guy doing to implementation doesn't know if the usability expert is in the process...
[16:55] <smarter> didn't seele do a review of the ubuntu notification thing?
[16:55] <smarter> and it wasn't really positive if I remember correctly
[16:55] <smarter> her blog seems to be down unfortunately :/
[16:55] <agateau> Tonio_: the guy doing the implementation is doing what he is been told to do
[16:55] <Tonio_> smarter: no idea, but if that happened, agateau should be aware of that :)
[16:55] <agateau> Tonio_: I guess you know this situation :)
[16:55] <Tonio_> if he isn't, means that there's a real communication issue
[16:56] <Tonio_> agateau: yeah, not your fault, of course, just that's bad :)
[16:56] <agateau> I am a bit crunched between Canonical and Kubuntu designers
[16:57] <agateau> but I hope you agree that the idea of a message indicator makes sense if you restrict your notifications to only ephemeral ones,
[16:57] <agateau> and it also lead to a less cluttered desktop
[16:58] <ScottK> agateau: It's the actionless bit that bothers me more than the ephemeral part.
[16:59] <agateau> ScottK: rest assured I haven't been told to remove actions
[16:59] <ScottK> agateau: Glad to hear it.
[16:59] <agateau> ScottK: what I have been doing with regard to that though,
[16:59]  * ScottK was just commenting on the general Ux design.
[16:59] <agateau> ScottK: is to make it possible for KDE apps to detect that the notification server does not support them,
[17:00] <agateau> ScottK: (read running on GNOME with notify-osd)
[17:00] <agateau> ScottK: and not use actions *in this case only*
[17:00] <ScottK> agateau: As long as upstream is willing to take the patches, I think that's good.
[17:00] <agateau> ScottK: I am in the process of upstreaming the kdelibs changes
[17:01] <agateau> ScottK: posted them to kde-core-devel@ a few minutes ago
[17:01] <ScottK> OK. Good to hear.
[17:08] <smarter> agateau: have aseigo or notmart(which were both involved in the notification thing) already commented on your indicator plasmoid?
[17:08] <agateau> smarter: no
[17:08] <agateau> smarter: Riddell blogged about it, but they did not comment
[17:08] <smarter> okay, we'll see what happen then
[17:09] <ScottK> Quassel devs gave it a good review.
[17:09] <agateau> The blog is a bit old now, so I don't think they will comment on it
[17:09] <agateau> But other blog post will come
[17:10] <agateau> ScottK: reminds me I should mail the quassel patch
[17:10] <agateau> ScottK: unless you already did?
[17:10] <ScottK> I did not.
[17:10] <agateau> ScottK: ok, will do then
[17:15] <smarter> Tonio_: any idea what's the state of Kaffeine?
[17:17] <ScottK> smarter: Working nicely here on Karmic.
[17:17] <smarter> the svn snapshot we have seems to be a bit old
[17:17] <agateau> time to go, have a good weekend!
[17:18] <Tonio_> smarter: unreleased, pretty functionnal, poorly maintained
[17:18] <Tonio_> as k3b in fact :)
[17:18] <Tonio_> this is a bit frightening, to be honnest ;)
[17:18] <Tonio_> officially, most of the apps we ship with arent release as stable, 1 1/2 years after kde4 has been released
[17:19] <Tonio_> ààààààààà
[17:19] <Tonio_> oops
[17:19] <smarter> true :/
[17:19] <smarter> what's going on with k3b?
[17:19] <Tonio_> smarter: alpha2 released, no news since then
[17:19] <smarter> I thought some Mandriva guys were working on it?
[17:20] <Tonio_> no news on the official website for 6 month maybe
[17:21] <smarter> too bad that killer-app like that don't have a great community of developers
[17:21] <Tonio_> smarter: that's kde's fault
[17:22] <smarter> well, Amarok seems to manage it pretty well
[17:22] <Tonio_> they rely on volunteers only
[17:22] <Tonio_> there's no global idea of "the team should work on whatever needs love"
[17:22] <Tonio_> gnome does that
[17:22] <Tonio_> so we have apps overmaintained, things unmaintained and things completly ignored
[17:23] <Tonio_> making the all desktop irrelevant, unusable
[17:23] <Tonio_> in the list of expected features, priority is very often given to what should be marked "bonus"
[17:24] <Tonio_> think about activities on virtual desktops, new plasma plugins, desktop effects
[17:24] <Monika|K> how's Gnome different, they're volunteers, too
[17:24] <Tonio_> all of that is nice, but when nobody except from one person seem to use wireless/3G, whatever, or bluetooth
[17:24] <Tonio_> solid officially supports bluez and networkmanager
[17:24] <Tonio_> great, nobody cares about the gui, no problem
[17:24] <Tonio_> let's code new desktop effects instead
[17:25] <Tonio_> ...
[17:25] <Tonio_> no captain in the boat, no global vision, that's my feeling about kde right now
[17:26] <Tonio_> and honnestly, I've seen so many kde fans switching to gnome not when kde4 was released, but very recently, just sick with lack of network management and blutooth
[17:26] <JontheEchidna> it's not like those who code desktop effects could instantly become bluez experts, or would even contribute at all if they weren't doing desktop effect stuff
[17:26] <Tonio_> that I'm pretty affraid for kde in the future
[17:26] <JontheEchidna> I myself made a silly little weather wallpaper plugin in kdeplasma-addons
[17:26] <Tonio_> their userbase is either left, or very sick, right now
[17:26] <smarter> JontheEchidna: and became famous for that ;)
[17:26] <JontheEchidna> but I have no clue how to fix kdebluetooth
[17:26] <Tonio_> JontheEchidna: I don't blame anyone
[17:26] <Tonio_> JontheEchidna: I just have the feeling that the gnome project is globally "driven"
[17:27] <Tonio_> when kde isn't
[17:27] <smarter> Tonio_: you seem quiet biasé
[17:27] <smarter> *blasé
[17:27] <ScottK> Tonio_: My understanding is Gnome is much less globally driven.
[17:27] <neversfelde> I have seen many new KDE users in the last few weeks, many users returned and a lot are new, because they have seens screenshots of KDE4
[17:27] <ScottK> The regularly deliver unsynchronized compentis
[17:28] <Monika|K> I haven't seen anyone move to Gnome recently. They simply use Gnome or konsole network management applications instead of KNetworkManager
[17:28] <maco> ScottK: components?
[17:28] <nixternal> why are there images for debian in the iso under the pics/ directory?
[17:28] <ScottK> Just a moment
[17:28] <neversfelde> I do not have a negative impression
[17:28] <Nightrose> Tonio_: they also have paied developers taking care of the sh*t no-one wants to fix
[17:29] <Tonio_> Nightrose: yep that's true
[17:29] <JontheEchidna> ^the big difference
[17:29] <smarter> Suse guys are helping a lot with that
[17:29] <Tonio_> free software generally needs more paid people
[17:29] <Tonio_> and that's not specific to kde :)
[17:29] <smarter> they're the main one working on stuff like KNetworkManager
[17:29] <JontheEchidna> And KNetworkManager, I might add, is sucking less these days :)
[17:29] <Nightrose> right
[17:30] <Tonio_> ScottK: hum maybe gnome isn't as driven
[17:30] <JontheEchidna> ^but gnome has more commerical dev support
[17:30] <JontheEchidna> meaning the hard stuff gets done (tm)
[17:30] <smarter> it's probably me, but gnome doesn't look like it evolves much
[17:30] <Nightrose> it's not you ;-)
[17:30] <Tonio_> but also gnome, despite having less killer apps, has less "holes" in the global project :)
[17:30] <Tonio_> ScottK: just my feeling
[17:31] <Tonio_> I'm just expressing it since kde should know/ear/listen to their users
[17:32] <Tonio_> ScottK: not the first time this happens to me to be honnest :)
[17:32] <Tonio_> ScottK: I even tend to be globally frustrated with free softwarein general :)
[17:32] <Tonio_> ScottK: and sometimes, I just don't understand why proprieraty software still exists..
[17:33]  * Tonio_ is just a very "mood changing" type of person
[17:33] <Tonio_> ;)
[17:33] <Monika|K> Tonio_ I am often at Kubuntu booths on Linux events and people like KDE 4 and all those silly desktop effects
[17:33] <Monika|K> just last weekend there was Froscon and people asked for the most useless desktop effect of all - turning all the widgets by random angles
[17:34] <Tonio_> Monika|K: then people are stuopid
[17:34] <smarter> true :p
[17:34] <smarter> Monika|K: that's possible? :O
[17:34] <Tonio_> should I be there, I'd ask for proper features missing, that not any desktop should miss in 2009
[17:34] <Tonio_> maybe the users are the problem then
[17:34] <Monika|K> I just tell them: KNetworkManager is not good right now, use something else in the meantime
[17:34] <Monika|K> and they are fine with this
[17:35] <Monika|K> except for the people with 4 GiB SSDs because they run out of space
[17:35] <Monika|K> but everyone else doesn't seem to care
[17:35] <Monika|K> me neither
[17:35]  * Nightrose grumbles
[17:35] <Tonio_> at some points they seem to ignore their users problems
[17:35]  * Nightrose is one of those poor 4gb people
[17:35] <Tonio_> that's what I call "project governance"
[17:35] <Tonio_> gnome seems to listen a little more
[17:36] <Monika|K> Nightrose I am not saying it shouldn't be fixed as soon as possible
[17:36] <smarter> Nightrose: I have an eee701 with only 4gb too!
[17:36] <Nightrose> Tonio_: that's just your impression
[17:36] <Nightrose> really
[17:36] <Monika|K> and it looks like it will be alright in 9.10
[17:36] <Tonio_> and that's what it appears to me a lot more "consistent" today
[17:36] <Nightrose> smarter: welcome to the club ;-)
[17:36] <Tonio_> Nightrose: maybe I'm wrong on the cause of that
[17:36] <smarter> Nightrose: ;)
[17:36] <Tonio_> I'm really convinced about the consequence :) whatever is the cause
[17:36] <smarter> Nightrose: worst is doing distro upgrade
[17:36] <ScottK> Tonio_: Earlier I was referring to a Gnome protocol change (I don't recall the details) and Gnome released with half it's apps still using the old version that was gone.  The basic reply was "Meh, it's FOSS, what can you do".
[17:36] <Tonio_> I can't use my laptop with kde as any other OS/Desktop allows me to do
[17:36] <Nightrose> Tonio_: really of course not everything is perfect in KDE - but trust me if you stuck with gnome for equally long you'd find fault there too
[17:37] <Nightrose> maybe not the same problems
[17:37] <Nightrose> but lots of problems nontheless
[17:37] <Nightrose> and I doN't think they are listening to their users more than we do
[17:37] <Tonio_> Nightrose: I'm using gnome right now :) and for month (for working purpose, project, so I have too)
[17:37] <Nightrose> see gnome shell being needing shiny graphics stuff
[17:37] <Nightrose> -being
[17:37] <Tonio_> and... sure it has problems, but is allows me to do *all* the basics
[17:38] <Nightrose> same with kde for me ;-)
[17:38] <smarter> the KDE brainstorm forum is a great step in that direction I think
[17:38] <Nightrose> smarter: jep
[17:38] <ScottK> smarter: Do any developers look at it?
[17:38] <Nightrose> yes
[17:38] <Tonio_> Nightrose: maybe you don't consider bluetooth support a "basic" feature then :)
[17:38] <Tonio_> most people do imho :)
[17:38] <Nightrose> Tonio_: don't have anything bloothothy so yea
[17:38] <smarter> it seems to be surprisingly well managed by the forum moderators/admins
[17:38] <Nightrose> bah
[17:38] <Nightrose> can't tyoe today
[17:39] <ScottK> Clearly
[17:39] <ScottK> ;-)
[17:39] <Nightrose> :D
[17:39] <Tonio_> hehe :)
[17:39] <Nightrose> but seriously - KDE isn't a project where you can tell people what to work on - you can push them in the rght direction though
[17:39] <Nightrose> and that is happening
[17:40]  * Monika|K gives Nightrose typing water
[17:40] <Nightrose> the holes get fixed one by one
[17:40] <Nightrose> Monika|K: thx ;-)
[17:40] <Tonio_> Nightrose: I agree 100% with your previous phrase
[17:40] <ScottK> Nightrose: The bluetooth problem is a serious one.
[17:40] <Tonio_> Nightrose: and the first part of it is imho a problem
[17:40] <Nightrose> ScottK: not saying it isn't
[17:40] <Nightrose> justnot for me personally
[17:40] <Tonio_> Nightrose: might be a global free software project issue, I don't know
[17:41] <Tonio_> maybe the BDFL thing is the good thing in it
[17:41] <ScottK> I've got this Kubuntu Netbook thing I'm doing and bluetooth DUN support is in networkmanager 0.8 and would totally rock for a netbook.
[17:41] <ScottK> Nightrose: Right, I'm just curious how to solve it.
[17:41] <ScottK> You're a lot more involved in upstream stuff than me.
[17:41] <Tonio_> ScottK: yeah, when it comes to "work", bluetooth is a requirement at some points
[17:42] <Nightrose> I think it simply needs someone needing bluetooth with coding skills
[17:42] <Tonio_> the big problem is the infinite loop
[17:42] <Nightrose> so far none of the upstream devs seem to need it much or use other tools
[17:42] <ScottK> Nightrose: That or convincing someone they can be a KDE hero if they do it anyway.
[17:42] <Nightrose> hehe right
[17:42] <Tonio_> no corp features, desktop considered irrelevant, no corp distro use it, then no corp features....
[17:42] <Tonio_> that is the problem
[17:42] <Tonio_> kde lost it's distros
[17:43] <Nightrose> not true
[17:43] <Tonio_> s/lost/misses/
[17:43] <Nightrose> we've just been made default in opensuse again for one
[17:43] <Tonio_> Nightrose: ah ? I didn't knew that
[17:43] <Tonio_> interessting
[17:43] <Nightrose> ;-)
[17:43] <Tonio_> Nightrose: are you default in the novell desktop enterprise linux ?
[17:43] <Nightrose> no
[17:43] <Tonio_> Nightrose: re-read my phrase :)
[17:44] <Nightrose> [18:42:55] <Tonio_> kde lost it's distros
[17:44] <Nightrose> [18:43:04] <Nightrose> not true
[17:44] <Tonio_> I was talking about corporate oriented distros :)
[17:44] <Tonio_> s/it's/it's professional/
[17:44] <Tonio_> sorry ;)
[17:44] <Nightrose> well they used gnome back then and they are using gnome now
[17:44] <Nightrose> don't see much of a change there tbh
[17:44] <Tonio_> hum the almost death of mandriva is an issue on that point :)
[17:45] <Nightrose> yea mandriva is kinda a strange thing...
 Nightrose: maybe you don't consider bluetooth support a "basic" feature then :) <--- i think of it as a module to blacklist
[17:47] <Nightrose> hehe
[17:47] <nixternal> by the time we get bluetooth support all fixed up, there will be a new standard and bluetooth will be like floppy drives :p
[17:48] <maco> i havent figured out what point bluetooth on a computer has. bluetooth on a phone...sure...you can hook up a headset. what do you do with it on a computer?
[17:49] <maco> replace your IR cordless mouse & keyboard with a BT cordless mouse & keyboard? oh boy...thats such a BIG difference...
[17:50] <maco> well..i mean...i can see a downside to it....people sending badware to your laptop without your knowledge...
[17:50] <smarter> maco: to use your Wiimote on your PC? ;)
[17:50] <ScottK> maco: Talk to your bluetooth phone and get mobile internet without having to buy a 2nd data plan.
[17:50] <maco> ScottK: tethering doesnt requie bluetooth
[17:51] <ScottK> OK. .... without a wire.
[17:51] <maco> just need a way to connect to adhoc networks
[17:51] <maco> er..ive tethered to dan's G1 just fine
[17:51] <maco> i use iwconfig
[17:51] <maco> iwconfig wlan0 mode Ad-Hoc essid "G1 "
[17:51] <ScottK> Right, if the phone has wifi, sure.
[17:51] <ScottK> Most don't.
[17:52] <maco> so then you just talk to the phone and it doesnt go anywhere?
[17:52] <maco> (and yeah seriously, ssid that ends in a space)
[17:52]  * ScottK needs to run.
[17:58] <nixternal> ScottK: running is bad, you need to walk carefully
[18:38] <neversfelde> in which ppa should the koffice beta packages go?
[19:19] <bmunger> will karmic be keeping up with the monthly 4.3.x updates after release in october in official repository, or will it be a PPA like jaunty has for 4.2.4?
[19:27] <JontheEchidna> jaunty was special because there were several regressions with KDE 4.2.x misbehaving with Qt 4.5.x
[19:29] <JontheEchidna> shouldn't be an issue this time around
[19:48] <markey> my network behaves a bit strangely since latest karmic update
[19:48] <markey> W: Failed to fetch http://ch.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/karmic/universe/binary-amd64/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
[19:48] <markey> hm
[19:49] <markey> also problems with ktorrent
[19:49] <neversfelde> markey: probably a problem with the mirror, does it work with archive.ubuntu.com ?
[19:52] <markey> neversfelde: bingo, works now :)
[19:52] <markey> thx
[20:12] <bmunger> JontheEchidna: cool thanks
[20:41] <bmunger> is there any talk of adding battery health info to the plasma widget?
[20:52] <bmunger> also, is there a reason the weather/globe/virus wallpaper type has disappeared?
[20:54] <JontheEchidna> have plasma-wallpapers-addons installed?
[20:58] <bmunger> nope guess not.. odd.. thought that would be part of the base install
[20:58] <bmunger> installing now
[20:58] <bmunger> thanks
[21:07] <bmunger> its all there.. thanks for the tip
[21:09] <JontheEchidna> nah, the dependencies it drags in are huge, way too big to fit on the CD
[21:09] <JontheEchidna> marble, 60 MB of wallpapers, etc
[21:10] <JontheEchidna> but you're welcome :)
[21:27] <Tonio__> hum does the kde printer applet allow access to a remote cups server ? I can't find the option
[21:30] <neversfelde> Tonio__: I am using a remote printer, it was detected automatically when searchin for it with the systemsettings module
[21:31] <Tonio__> neversfelde: that's slightly different from connecting to a remote cups server anyway :)
[21:31] <Tonio__> neversfelde: auto browsing is nice, but that's not what I need :/
[21:35] <Tonio__> neversfelde: found it :)thanks anyway
[21:35] <neversfelde> Tonio__: :) good
[21:42] <bmunger> JontheEchidna: oh that makes sense, would be nice to have that option to install it available to the user somewhere in that window that downloads the extra packages
[22:18] <Monika|K> Can Arora not do Flash?
[22:19] <Monika|K> oh strange, after I click the "in new window" button on the Youtube video it plays, but before it didn't
[23:02] <maco> uhh opt-in mode for the chat monitor in quassel seems not to work
[23:06] <maco> oh wait its working ok now
[23:58] <nixternal> yowsers..I just shaved my head...I have no hair!! :(
[23:59] <neversfelde> nixternal: congratulations :)
[23:59] <neversfelde> why did you do it?