[02:45] <mnaines> I take it everyone's asleep...
[02:46]  * mneptok yawns
[02:46] <mneptok> mnaines: how can we help?
[02:46] <mnaines> Oh, I just came in to see if I could get a ban removed
[02:47] <mneptok> in what channel? who set the ban?
[02:48] <mnaines> Flannel set the ban, and it was in the main Ubuntu channel...Apparently, I got banned because I was bashing Windows Vista
[02:48] <mnaines> That guy is a handful sometimes
[02:49] <mneptok> yes, Vista can be a handful
[02:49] <mnaines> Flannel is a handful, too...Hard to reason with him because of his one-track mind
[02:49] <mnaines> He seems more intent on enforcing the rules than he does on helping people
[02:50] <mneptok> and that track, in your estimation, is ... ?
[02:50] <mneptok> it might occur to you that enforcing the rules *does* help people, by allowing the channel to operate in a way that allows people to get help.
[02:51] <mnaines> well, he takes it to the extreme...If you don't talk about Ubtuntu-related stuff or if you're just sitting idle in the room, he kicks you out
[02:51] <mneptok> i have yet to see anyone get kicked for idling in #ubuntu
[02:52] <mneptok> if you would like to produce evidence from the public logs, i'll gladly adjust my perceptions
[02:52] <mnaines> I routinely see "Connection reset by peer" and other messages when people leave
[02:52] <mneptok> and #ubuntu is only for Ubuntu support.
[02:52] <mneptok> and you think that's Flannel?
[02:53] <mnaines> Anyway, the issue in question stemmed from someone wanting to dual-boot Windows Vista and Ubuntu, and when I tried to talk the guy out of using Vista, I got banned
[02:53] <mneptok> because that's not helpful
[02:54] <mneptok> #ubuntu is not a channel for you to grind your own political axes
[02:54] <mnaines> He said he only had 2GB of RAM and he wanted Windows to play games on...I knew right then that Vista wasn't going to run on his machine very well and tried to tell him that
[02:54] <mneptok> and if the game he referred to was Minesweeper?
[02:55] <mnaines> Even then, Vista itself is a pig...The Vista Aero desktop itself requires at least 2GB to run without any lag
[02:55] <mneptok> and if he had Home Basic?
[02:56] <mnaines> And don't even get me started about how Vista does not stop running the hard drive at 100% all because of the "Windows Search Index" service
[02:56] <mneptok> you can disable services in Windows.
[02:56] <mnaines> Most users should not take such a risk unless they have an expert to talk them through it
[02:56] <jdong> indeed, and it could possibly be doing something useful using background IO :)
[02:57] <mneptok> #ubuntu is not a channel in which to foist your personal computing choices on others.
[02:57] <mnaines> Its not a personal computing choice...Its one of those "I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I made" sort of thing
[02:57] <mneptok> oh, charming
[02:58] <mneptok> 19:57 [Freenode] [mnaines(n=mnaines@65.26.54.242)] Bot Sentry engaged:  you are now being ignored!  Your message will be delivered if you can correctly answer the following question within 10 minutes:  How do you spell the number 10?
[02:58] <mneptok> because of a CTCP
[02:58] <mnaines> Yeah...I had to spend $2,500 on a quad-core machine just to be able to run my games without any lag on Vista Home Premium
[02:59] <mneptok> mnaines: can you hear me now?
[02:59] <mnaines> Yes
[02:59] <mneptok> good
[02:59] <mneptok> i suggest you disable that script while talking in -ops
[02:59] <mneptok> i see that you use Pidgin for IRC
[02:59] <mnaines> It only applies if you IM me...I don't accept IMs from people in chat
[03:00] <mnaines> That is a mentality I carry with me from my Yahoo Chat experience
[03:00] <mneptok> irssi is a vastly superior IRC client. how about i spend an hour or so discussing you choice of IRC client before we discuss that ban?
[03:00] <mnaines> As long as it is a clean and civil debate, I'm all for it
[03:01] <mneptok> or, better yet, why don;t i leave my personal computing decisions at the door, and discuss with you the topic you wanted to discuss when you /join'ed this channel?
[03:01] <mnaines> I only chose Pidgin so I can have all my instant messengers and chat programs in one place
[03:01] <mneptok> wouldn't that be a better use of our time?
[03:01] <mnaines> Yes, it would
[03:01] <mneptok> i'm glad we agree.
[03:02] <mneptok> may we expect the same discretion from you in Ubuntu channels in the future?
[03:02] <mnaines> Well, its hard to get me to disagree with such trivial matters...Ever since I was born, I have always tried to find some sort of middle ground on topics I could not agree on
[03:03] <mneptok> the middle ground in #ubuntu is "help the person with the issue they are asking about, refer them to the proper place if it is not Ubuntu-related, or remain silent."
[03:03] <mnaines> Its a two-way street...My experience here in IRC isn't quite up to par yet...My experience in Yahoo chat is such that people totally disregard the room topic and talk about whatever is on their minds...But Yahoo's rooms are limited to 50 users maximum
[03:04] <mneptok> welcome to the real world, Neo.
[03:04] <mnaines> Sometimes the proper place isn't good enough...Some of the other rooms aren't anywhere near as active and some of them are dead or dying
[03:04] <mneptok> ##windows is quite lively
[03:05] <mneptok> "You might want to ask about the Vista experience with gaming in ##windows. this is #ubuntu. you might get better advice elsewhere."
[03:05] <mnaines> I wasn't talking about ##Windows...I was talking about smaller channels like #python or other places like that
[03:05] <mneptok> i can *guarantee* that a response like that will not irk Flannel
[03:06] <mnaines> Well, I can agree to that, but I also think Flannel needs to work on his self-discipline...He's beginning to act a lot like my stepdad
[03:06] <mnaines> My stepdad is the type who will go fisticuffs over a parking space if you don't give him enough room to get his fat rear end out of his big duallie diesel truck
[03:07] <mneptok> it sounds like issues in one part of your life are spilling over into others, to your detriment.
[03:07] <mneptok> but what do i know? i'm no licensed health professional.
[03:08] <mnaines> Unfortunately...And I'm working on fixing that, but I have no help on that matter, and my Asperger Syndrome doesn't make things any better
[03:09] <mnaines> I have AS, Tourette Syndrome, and OCD in addition to having a dysfunctional family...You can see how hard it is for me to keep one part of my life from affecting the others
[03:09] <mneptok> sadly, Flannel has no control over any of that. but he does have control over the Ubuntu channels, and follows the same guidelines we all do.
[03:09] <mnaines> Well, I think you can agree that we all need to work on self-discipline as well...Even I am lacking in that department somedays
[03:10] <mnaines> I get stressed out really easily, and when I get stressed out, my common sense and self-discipline go right out the window
[03:11] <mneptok> that's when it's time to leave IRC
[03:11] <mnaines> Fortunately, the window isn't able to open as much now as it used to when I was in high school...Now, I'm at least able to keep myself from punching someone's face in when I get stressed out
[03:11] <mneptok> in through the nose ... out through the mouth ... focus ...
[03:12] <mnaines> and I'm beginning to get to the point where music actually calms me down...
[03:12] <mnaines> Though when I get to that point, you can't get me to shut up about my favorite songs and why I listen to them
[03:13] <mneptok> so, given the OCD, Aspberger's, and Tourette's, do you find it somewhat likely that your behavior is more to blame here than is Flannel's?
[03:13] <mneptok> not YOU. you behavior.
[03:13] <mneptok> *your
[03:14] <mneptok> FYI, if i had seen you trying to talk people out of using Vista when they were asking for help, i would have been miffed, too.
[03:14] <mneptok> so, drop me in the same metal compartment as Flannel, if you please.
[03:14] <mneptok> *mental
[03:15] <mnaines> Well, I understand my behavior is a problem...It always has been...When I was in grade school, I routinely got in trouble because I wouldn't sit still long enough to pay attention and I had a nasty habit of questioning the teacher...When I got to high school, that changed to being a rebel and anarchist-wannabe and now its changed to being very critical and questioning every order I'm given
[03:16] <mneptok> that's a recipe for disaster in busy IRC channels with stressed and busy volunteer ops.
[03:16] <mneptok> best to nod your head, /join here, and ask, in a civilized and respectful tone, to discuss the issue.
[03:16] <mnaines> Its a recipe for CPC everywhere I go...
[03:17] <mnaines> "Chaos, panic, confusion..."
[03:17] <mneptok> so, let's remove Flannel from the equation, as i would have done the same thing, and by your own admission your behavior is problematic. deal?
[03:17] <mnaines> Of course...
[03:17] <mneptok> smashing.
[03:18] <mnaines> I know I need to work on my self-discipline, and believe me, I am working on it, but with the way my life is and the fact I don't have any help in that area, its becoming quite a challenge
[03:19] <mneptok> now, i think if you were to apologize to Flannel and to agree to follow all op requests without compaint in *public* channels, and instead complain here in a civilized and respectful way when you thought ops were *really* out of line, that Flannel may well be persuaded to remove your ban.
[03:19] <mnaines> Flannel doesn't seem to be active at this time...
[03:20] <mnaines> I wouldn't be surprised...Poor guy is probably getting ready for bed...
[03:20] <mneptok> he'll read backscroll. i'll make sure of it.
[03:21] <mnaines> Unfortunately, apologies are another challenge for me...
[03:22] <mneptok> it doesn't have to be now.
[03:22] <maco> i suppose the hard part is figuring out what $FOO is in "i'm sorry that i $FOO"
[03:22] <mneptok> go digest what we've discussed, and come back when you have more to say. perhaps the apology will flow more easily then.
[03:23] <mnaines> Its not that the apology can't flow easily...Its that I've always been nervous about doling them out because most of the times I did, they were ignored and nothing was done to resolve the issue
[03:23] <mneptok> "I'm sorry I made this about you, rather than about your reaction to my behavior. Please understand, my behavior and my core self are somewhat disjointed because of some issues I have. etc etc etc"
[03:24] <maco> mnaines: i think the important thing with making an apology is that you made an attempt. whether the person excepts it or not is not up to you, so don't stress over that
[03:24] <mneptok> mnaines: Flannel's actually a pretty hoopy frood.
[03:24] <mnaines> Every time I apologized IRL, the responses I always got back were either "You should have thought about that before you committed the crime" or "If you were sorry, you never would have done it"
[03:24] <mnaines> I eventually just gave up on it
[03:25] <mneptok> mnaines: that says more about the listener than it does about your apology, IMO
[03:26] <mnaines> I agree...But now you understand why I get nervous about doling out apologies
[03:26] <maco> mneptok: a hoopy frood? /me takes away the Douglas Adams
[03:27] <mnaines> I'm not a mean drunk...I actually get pretty hyperactive when I'm drunk
[03:27] <mnaines> But then again, I rarely ever drink alcohol...I overdose on caffeine quite a bit, though
[03:28] <mneptok> mnaines: Flannel will read this. and i think if you apologize and promise to follow ops' requests, and keep all disagreements here, you may find you make a new friend.
[03:28] <mnaines> Its always been hard for me to make friends...Not because of them or anything, but because of my intense shyness
[03:28] <mneptok> mnaines: check back in a few whiles, or tomorrow. find the Flannel-man, and have the kind of coversation with him you have had with me.
[03:29] <mnaines> My shyness is so intense at times that I often demote myself to being an observer rather than a participant in the game of life, and there are days where I won't talk to or trust anyone
[03:30] <mneptok> well, someone has to extend the hand first. and thus far, you've been throwing fire at Flannel. i think you'll have to go first. sadly, i think you have yourself to blame for that.
[03:30] <mneptok> sucks, i know. but i do it all the time, too.
[03:30] <mnaines> Of course...I always have to be the one to fight the fire
[03:31] <mneptok> well, stop setting your house ablaze ;)
[03:31] <mnaines> Even in RL...Sometimes IRL, I get stuck cleaning up other people's mistakes because of their habit of blaming the new guy for anything that goes wrong
[03:32] <mnaines> Sometimes if I'm the bearer of bad news, they seem more intent on shooting the messenger than on actually listening
[03:32] <mneptok> mnaines: i'm about to go into Total Bastard Mode because of lack of nicotine. that will suck, because it usually ends with maco pelting me with rocks and garbage (which i deserve).
[03:33] <mnaines> Oh, I know how that is...I do that a lot when I go through caffeine withdrawl
[03:33] <mneptok> mnaines: take the issue up with Flannel down the road when you have had time to cogitate about our convo?
[03:33] <mnaines> Sure...
[03:33] <mneptok> rawk.
[03:33] <maco> mneptok: nuh uh!
[03:34] <mnaines> By the way, I've handled War Goddesses on PMS, so I'm used to handling people at their worst
[03:34] <maco> i have never pelted you with anything
[03:34]  * mneptok beeps maco's nose
[03:34] <maco> not even a frozen grape, my usual instrument of torment
[03:34] <mneptok> OK, smoke time.
[03:35] <mnaines> My usual instrument of torment is a running faucet...I love turning them on to just a trickle right when the person is at a point and time when they cannot get up to use the bathroom
[03:35] <mneptok> mnaines: we have a "no idle" policy in -ops. use "/whois Flannel" to figure out when he;s active.
[03:35] <mneptok> mnaines: i had War Godesses On PMS for the Gamecube. it was OK.
[03:35] <mnaines> It doesn't say when he's active...Just says he's "detached"
[03:36] <mneptok> no backstory, though.
[03:36] <mnaines> mneptok: By War Goddesses on PMS, I mean Dominatrix type women
[03:36] <mneptok> i had that game, too. the controller hurt my hands. a lot.
[03:36] <mnaines> Or the type who are more comfortable with a .44 mag in each hand than they are with bra
[03:37] <mneptok> oh, REAL women. they rock.
[03:37] <mnaines> Yeah...I can be around those women and not get shot at
[03:37] <mnaines> In fact, I'd be right there with them when they go into torture mode
[03:37] <mneptok> so then making up with Flannel should be easy
[03:38] <mnaines> Should be...But I don't ever count my chickens before they hatch
[03:39] <mneptok> OK, must smoke.
[03:39]  * mnaines hands mneptok a stogie
[03:40] <mneptok> take care, and be nice to Flannel. he tolerates me. there are precious few that do.
[03:40] <mnaines> Well, it looks like you just made a new friend
[03:40] <mnaines> You and I have something in common
[03:40] <mneptok> \o/
[03:41]  * mneptok heads out like a foetus
[03:42]  * mnaines likes smokers...The smoke keeps the annoying idiots away
[04:25] <elky> mnaines just gave a display of utter idiocy in -ot
[04:26] <MsMaco> idiocy raised to the 12th power
[04:28] <MsMaco> the rest of the channel didnt do much to dampen the flames
[04:29] <elky> didn't do much? didn't do anything.
[04:29] <MsMaco> ok so i get the Understatement Of The Year Award
[06:45] <Myrtti> do I want to read the backlog?
[06:46] <nalioth> Myrtti: only if you're suffering from insomnia
[06:46] <Myrtti> nalioth: I just woke up and am dressing for work
[06:47] <nalioth> Myrtti: ah, welcome to the new day, then  :)
[07:07] <elky> the office intarwebs has been shaped... oh yay.
[07:08] <Flannel> What shape?
[07:08] <jussi01> elky: hahahaha... I still cant beleive australia still has download limits, they are so 90's
[07:49] <Flannel> gah.  So much noise in there.
[07:50] <indus> hello
[07:51] <Flannel> Hi indus, how can we help you today?
[07:52] <indus> brb
[07:52] <Myrtti> I want to slap them all
[07:52] <Flannel> I come back from getting a snack, and have to deal with this before I get to enjoy it.  Makes me unhappy.
[08:01]  * nalioth is now operating an OpenID server
[08:34] <indus> hi
[08:36] <indus> 'do what i say or you will be rebanned' , what is with that? is the ops above users?
[08:36] <indus> please use better statements when having some issue with a user/users
[08:36] <indus> or of course can be called to ubuntu-ops for 'discussion'
[08:36] <indus> thank you
[08:37] <Myrtti> FINE
[08:50]  * nalioth blinks
[09:45] <ikonia> I'm done with indus and his attitude
[11:54] <indus> hi
[11:55] <indus> who is responsible for reviewing irc guidelines? anyone please
[11:58] <Pricey> indus: The Ubuntu IRC Council maintain them, of which I am a member.
[11:58] <indus> hello
[11:59] <indus> how do i get a  message across to them
[11:59] <indus> i mean is there a irc council room?
[11:59] <indus> btw,are you pricechild from the forums?
[12:00] <Pricey> indus: I am indeed. You could leave it here, or if you'd prefer it remained private you can drop it into #ubuntu-irc-council or email us at irc-council@lists.ubuntu.com
[12:01] <indus> ok,do all ops here have acess to that email? or only council members
[12:01] <Pricey> indus: Only Council members. You could even just PM me.
[12:02] <indus> ok thank you,but i prefer emails ,its more professional.
[12:02] <indus> iam just going to join that room to check it out for a few min.is that ok?
[12:03] <Myrtti> what room?
[12:03] <Myrtti> oh, that
[12:03]  * Myrtti goes to get tea
[12:04] <indus> Pricey: are you no longer  forum staff now?
[12:05] <indus> anyways,i leave now,can expect a mail from me soon
[12:05] <indus> Myrtti: enjoy your tea
[12:08] <Pricey> ikonia: nope, still on there.
[12:09] <Myrtti> Pricey: fail
[12:10] <Pricey> Myrtti: his fault for having a similar name. (ik i mean)
[12:29] <ikonia> Pricey: bope what's on where?
[12:31] <Flannel> ikonia: He's still forum staff
[12:32] <ikonia> oh, repsonding to indus
[13:47] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[14:25] <dejuren> i have no voice, rigth?
[14:25] <dejuren> ups...
[14:26] <nalioth> dejuren: can we help you?
[14:26] <dejuren> hi all, who is on the IRC council now?
[14:27] <nalioth> what did you need, dejuren ?
[14:28] <dejuren> nalioth: nothing special, just asking, as I already brake the scilance...
[14:28] <dejuren> s/brake/broke/
[14:28] <Myrtti> so what brought you here?
[14:29] <gnomefreak> did anyone grab gibmich* about his hostmask?
[14:30] <dejuren> there was an artefact in #ubuntu-bg channel carring seveas as op, since he was member of the council, we met and that was the way he pointed me to find hwa are the new members
[14:30] <ikonia> gnomefreak: no signed out
[14:30] <gnomefreak> ikonia: ok
[14:36] <ikonia> dejuren: is there anything you actaully need/want from the council ?
[14:37] <dejuren> ikonia: no, just establishing a contact...
[14:38] <ikonia> dejuren: well the coucil members are Pici elky nalioth Pricey jussi01 if you need anything from them you can contact them or check out more info on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
[14:39] <dejuren> ikonia: tks... going out now
[14:39] <ikonia> no problem
[14:39] <ikonia> hope that helps
[14:41] <Myrtti> in general loco channel issues are handled in #ubuntu-irc
[14:41] <dejuren> ikonia: yes, tks again
[14:41] <dejuren> nice day everyone
[15:09]  * mneptok blinks
[15:09] <mneptok> wow! dejuren!
[15:09] <mneptok> (one of my former colleagues @canonical.com)
[15:14] <mneptok> jussi01: 08:14 -!- ftab [n=aftab@58-27-235-222.wateen.net] has joined #ubuntu
[15:14] <mneptok> :)
[15:15] <jussi01> mneptok: so long as he doesnt act up I really dont mind.
[15:16]  * mneptok doesn't, either
[15:16] <mneptok> but his "i'm not using your channels any more" lasted a full 36 hours. :)
[16:11] <ikonia> ?
[16:14] <mneptok> ikonia: problematic user from a day or so ago
[16:15] <ikonia> or really, and he's ex-canonical ?
[16:16] <mneptok> ikonia: AFAIK, dejuren is stil with Canonical
[16:16]  * mneptok is not
[16:16] <ikonia> how dissapointing that a canonical employee can't behave
[16:16] <mneptok> "can't behave?"
[16:16] <ikonia> you said he was a problem user
[16:17] <mneptok> no, i said ftab was
[16:17] <ikonia> ooooooh
[16:17] <ikonia> oh, well that's obvious
[16:17] <mneptok> ikonia: i think you need a /dcc of a mug of genii's love :)
[16:17] <ikonia> it would appear that way
[16:18] <mneptok> (as if *I'M* fully awake)
[16:19]  * genii gets a highlight notice and shows up to hand ikonia a large mug of coffee, then disappear again...
[17:28] <genii> hm
[17:40] <topyli> hmm do we have any practice on how to react to advertising ##club-ubuntu on -ot?
[17:56] <jussi01> topyli: speak to, if they dont stop, ban.
[17:56] <jussi01> they should know better.
[17:58] <maco> will i guess who it was correctly on the first try?
[17:59] <jussi01> probably not
[17:59] <maco> you're right
[18:00] <topyli> jussi01: right
[18:00] <topyli> too late for this one though
[18:01] <spO> hi
[18:01] <jussi01> spO: hi
[18:01] <spO> cna you guys please unban me from #ubuntu , i was banned because i was trolling in #launchpad   .... however, the two channels are totally different
[18:01] <spO> it is overzealousness
[18:02] <jussi01> spO: 1 moment please
[18:03] <spO> instead of parting #launchpad and getting it off my favorites list of auto join , i fixed myself to get a ban from thta channell.... then i get banned from #ubuntu , but i was not fixing to part nor get banned from that channel
[18:04] <spO> either way, i did not disrupt nor troll in #ubuntu
[18:04] <spO> you might as well gline me if you want to use these ethics
[18:04] <spO> ie, go ahead and gline me
[18:05] <jussi01> spO: as I just said, 1 moment please.
[18:05] <spO> i'll be back later
[18:05] <spO> after the op who banned me might calm down or not use emotions in banning so much
[18:14] <mneptok> Flannel: meep?
[19:17] <topyli> !away > fader|lunch
[20:19] <Flannel> mneptok: Hmm?
[20:27] <mneptok> Flannel: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/28/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[20:27] <mneptok> Flannel: should take you ~15m to read
[20:27] <Flannel> Is that last night with mnaines?
[20:28] <mneptok> yessah
[20:29] <mneptok> i am recommending no specific action. this is purely FYI.
[20:29] <Flannel> Yeah, I read it last night
[20:31] <ikonia> I still will not accept his actions for a removal of the ban in #ubuntu
[20:31] <ikonia> he STILL thinks he's right and flannel is wrong
[20:34] <mneptok> well, Flannel *is* wrong.
[20:34] <mneptok> but being wrong in the head is a hard requirement for Ubuntu ops.
[20:34] <mneptok> so, we all fail.
[20:34] <Flannel> by definition!
[20:36] <mneptok> exaaaaaaactly :)
[20:37] <mneptok> Flannel: don't worry. i love you, man. and not in a creepy way. more in that "i'd like to lock you in my crawlspace and watch 'samurai jack' with you until you become old enough to eat," way.
[20:38] <Flannel> samurai jack is cancelled :(
[20:38] <mneptok> i have the DVDs right over here. there ya go ... through the trap door. that's right ...
[20:38] <Flannel> Also, Johnny Bravo is cancelled too.  And stopped being a "one man army" after the first season.
[21:06] <genii> I'm back and forth with work. losher and x404x just got a reminder from me in #u about being offtopic, looks like they may move to -ot hopefully
[21:06] <genii> Also my connection seems flakey
[21:10] <maco> topyli had a talk with him today
[21:11] <maco> explaining that the things he was saying in -ot are o4o and...well actually he had o4o explained to him 2 days ago according to my scrollback...
[21:11] <maco> things he was saying yesterday night
[21:11] <maco> (when elky and i were annoyed)
[21:12] <genii> They might need an eye on them, at any rate. I can't properly do it right now
[21:13] <maco> yeah i see them -ot and am going "er....?"
[21:13] <maco> something about spam and porn and downloading. i dont know whats going on
[21:23] <topyli> well i'm certainly annoyed
[21:23] <nickspoon> Pourquoi, monsieur topyli?
[21:23] <topyli> probably too much so to make desicions about this
[21:23] <topyli> nickspoon: certainly not because of my favorite nickspoon!
[21:24] <nickspoon> Aw, aren't you the sweetest thing?
[21:24] <topyli> yeah, arn't i
[21:29] <genii_> Hm
[21:34] <genii-around> Bleh. Looks like jussi01.com is up/down right now
[21:34] <MsMaco> aye
[21:35] <MsMaco> which is why im over here
[21:35]  * genii-around commiserates
[21:36] <genii-around> Back up...back down...bah back up...back down....
[21:37]  * genii-around makes coffee
[21:52] <mnaines> ok...Its Friday...You guys agreed to talk about my ban today
[21:57] <Seeker`> who agreed to talk to you?
[21:57] <topyli> mnaines: who did?
[21:57] <mnaines> Flannel
[21:57] <mnaines> He's the one who banned me
[21:58] <topyli> right
[21:58] <topyli> doesn't seem to be active right now
[21:59] <mnaines> You know the rules about idlers
[22:00] <topyli> what about them?
[22:00] <mnaines> Why don't they apply in this case?
[22:00] <topyli> this is the ops' working room. everyone's pretty much supposed to be here
[22:00] <mnaines> They apply the same to the ops as they do to ordinary users
[22:01] <topyli> for example, even if Flannel is away right now, he will note that he's been called
[22:01] <mnaines> I don't care.  You guys are the ones who are supposed to be setting the example.  The rules apply to you guys the same way they apply to the rest of us
[22:01] <Pricey> mnaines: That is not true.
[22:02] <Pricey> mnaines: Please read the wording of the /topic
[22:02] <MsMaco> if he didnt stay here when afk, how would he know you were looking for him?
[22:02] <topyli> mnaines: the rules are: ops stay on the ops channel. others come in when they have business with ops
[22:02] <mnaines> Pricey: Right up there in the bold print at the top of the screen it says: "We reserve the right to remove idlers from the channel"
[22:02] <Pricey> mnaines: Indeed.
[22:03] <Pricey> mnaines: It does not say. "We will remove idlers from the channel"
[22:03] <mnaines> You remove idle users but not idle ops...Sounds mighty close to hypocrisy to me
[22:04] <MsMaco> its the difference between "will" and "may"
[22:04] <MsMaco> the topic refers to "may"
[22:04]  * Flannel is back!
[22:04] <Flannel> What'd I miss?
[22:04] <topyli> mnaines: study this in your heart
[22:04] <topyli> Flannel: the best part!
[22:04] <mnaines> MsMaco: Ops don't get any special treatment just because they're ops...
[22:04] <Myrtti> er, this is ops channel
[22:05] <Myrtti> so yes, yes they do
[22:05] <Pricey> mnaines: They do. This is an ops channel and so they idle here.
[22:05] <Flannel> mnaines: If the ops weren't in the ops channel, what would the purpose of the ops channel be?
[22:05] <topyli> mnaines: ops get much worse treatment than anyone else. now get to your point
[22:05] <Flannel> (ie a way to contact them reliably)
[22:05] <mnaines> Flannel, my point is, you were AFK, so I was questioning the "we reserve the right to remove idlers from this room" rule you guys have
[22:05] <Myrtti> *boggle*
[22:05] <Pricey> mnaines: To speak on behalf of the IRC Council, we have a policy in this channel, and I will not be using it to remove Flannel for being inactive.
[22:06] <Myrtti> so we have the right to remove people, which we may, or may not do
[22:06] <Pricey> mnaines: It seems Flannel is now aroudn to speak to you about your ban. I hope everyone will let that now happen.
[22:06] <mnaines> Pricey: Since when did that policy give you the right NOT to police each other?
[22:06] <Pricey> mnaines: Would you like to discuss this in PM? I don't want it to detract from your intended conversation with Flannel.
[22:08] <Pricey> mnaines: Which, by the way, I will be watching. And if Flannel does require 'policing' as you put it, I will.
[22:13] <mnaines> Flannel, you still here?
[22:14] <Flannel> mnaines: Indeed
[22:15] <Flannel> I was just being patient if you were having a conversation with Pricey or whatnot
[22:15] <mnaines> I was in IM...He helped me understand one of the guidelines better
[22:16] <Myrtti> hooray for Pricey
[22:18] <mnaines> Anyway, Flannel, you told me to wait until today to talk about the ban...Now, why don't we go over what it will take to get the ban removed
[22:22] <Flannel> In general, bans are put in place because someone is being disruptive.  They're removed when that disruption is unlikely to happen again.
[22:23] <mnaines> My problem is people being directed to a room that isn't active enough that they will get the help they need
[22:24] <mnaines> That's the whole reason I questioned the ops in the first place...Because someone said that they tried other rooms and those rooms were dead or dying and they were still redirected to other rooms
[22:25] <Flannel> mnaines: But do you understand how we can't take that stance? It would render #ubuntu completely unhelpful
[22:26] <mnaines> Well, I didn't know if you guys check the activity in the rooms before you direct people to them...That was my mistake, and why I questioned you guys
[22:27] <Flannel> mnaines: In general they tend to be the official support channels for the various projects, why should we question their activity?
[22:27] <Flannel> Yes, some times of day the room may be dead, but that's true of every project.  There are some times of day in #ubuntu you can't get support for X or Y, because no one's active at that time that knows about it
[22:28] <mnaines> That's something I've always been afraid of...I try to help any way I can just to minimize the impact of such situations
[22:29] <Flannel> Afraid of what?  There's nothing wrong with that situation.
[22:29] <Flannel> You state your question succinctly and with enough information, and then wait for someone to wake up and answer it.  (at least, in the "dead" channels)
[22:29] <mnaines> Its hard to tell who is a corporate user and who is a home user, and a majority of the corporate users, the longer they wait for help on a problem, the more money their company loses
[22:29] <Flannel> someone will wake up and answer it
[22:30] <Flannel> Adding to the noise in #ubuntu doesn't help anyone though.
[22:30] <Flannel> We are not the catchall for support
[22:30] <mnaines> Its similar setup to a call center, and I've never worked in a call center, nor do I want to work in one
[22:31] <Flannel> If I remember correctly, it was a FreeBSD person, people in #ubuntu *dont* know how FreeBSD works, so it's likely they'll have to wait as long, if not longer, for someone to be able to help the.
[22:31] <mnaines> I think the issue that got me banned was that guy who was trying to dual-boot Vista and Ubuntu
[22:31] <mnaines> I tried talking him out of Vista and that's when I was banne
[22:31] <mnaines> banned*
[22:32] <Flannel> You weren't being helpful, that's what got you banned.
[22:32] <Flannel> It had nothing to do with the fact that Vista was involved.
[22:32] <Flannel> or, Win7, or whatever it was.
[22:33] <Flannel> well, didn't get you banned, but contributed to it.
[22:33] <mnaines> Vista and Windows 7 are the same thing...Just that Microsoft slimmed down Vista and called the new version Windows 7 after too many people complained about how bloated Vista was
[22:35] <Flannel> That's not relevant to your ban, so lets just skip it
[22:35] <mnaines> ok
[22:36] <mnaines> The main thing is I'm new to IRC, so I'm not used to which rooms are open and which are not...
[22:37] <Flannel> "open"?
[22:37] <topyli> every channel has a topic mnaines. observe it. that's how irc works
[22:37] <mnaines> Active
[22:37] <Flannel> I'm not sure how activity is really relevant to this discussion either
[22:38] <mnaines> Basically my point is, I wouldn't know which rooms to direct a person to because I'm new to IRC...And I don't like just sitting around and watching because of my inexperience
[22:39] <Flannel> The best way to get experience is to observe.  You're not the only person in the room, so you don't need to feel responsible to respond to everyone
[22:39] <Flannel> Someone who *can* help the person (either through support, or redirection) will step in and do so
[22:39] <mnaines> I learn best by getting my hands dirty...
[22:40] <mnaines> I've never been the type who learns from lectures...I learn from doing, not watching or listening
[22:40] <Flannel> If you do that in #ubuntu, you'll just give people bad advice or cause confusion
[22:41] <mnaines> That's why I rely on my own experiences when I give help...If I don't have experience in something, I don't give help
[22:41] <Flannel> Except you weren't giving help with the windows guy, you were just ranting and adding noise to the channel
[22:42] <topyli> mnaines: you have a good idea there. if you don't have experience in something, you don't help in that specific area
[22:42] <Flannel> We already discussed this a few days ago, you were told to come back today.
[22:42] <topyli> in others you do, you help there
[22:42] <mnaines> Sometimes my "I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I did" mentality kicks in, but 90% of the time, it kicks in at the wrong times
[22:43] <Flannel> For all you know, he already had Vista and wanted to install Ubuntu.  All your rant was doing was turning him off to the whole idea.
[22:44] <ikonia> not this again
[22:44] <mnaines> ikonia, knock it off.  You are not a part of this conversation, so keep your mouth shut and quit your belly-aching
[22:44] <Pricey> mnaines: Please reread what you just said.
[22:44] <Pricey> ikonia, topyli, please allow Flannel this conversation.
[22:45] <ikonia> I won't be interupting
[22:45] <ikonia> I won't be spoken to like that though
[22:46] <topyli> right, sorry
[22:46] <ikonia> Flannel: I strongly suggest leaving the ban in place as it's clear this person still has an attitude problem. Over to you.
[22:46] <mnaines> Well, ikonia, you were the one who jumped into the middle of the conversation then complained about what was being said.  Sorry for being rude, but I really don't like whiners
[22:48] <mnaines> The simple solution would have been to ask what the conversation was about then once you got the answer you could have expressed your opinion on the matter
[22:49] <Flannel> Alright, back on track.
[22:49] <mnaines> Yes...I am excusing the interruption now that I have spoken my mind
[22:50] <Flannel> mnaines: Do you see where your reaction to him wanting to dual boot became a problem though?
[22:51] <mnaines> Yes, I do...I wasn't given the full information on what his problem was...I let my hatred of Vista take over
[22:52] <Flannel> And worse, you didn't stop when you were asked to
[22:53] <mnaines> That was another thing I need to learn to control...Knowing when to keep my mouth shut...I know everyone has problems with that on certain days
[22:53] <Flannel> Which is really the core of the matter, since everyone wanders offtopic at some point or another and needs a gentle nudging back
[22:54] <mnaines> Especially after really stressful days...Self-discipline gets harder to do as your stress level goes up
[22:55] <Flannel> You should take it upon yourself to just not IRC on those days
[22:56] <mnaines> Those days, my stress reliever is video games, but IRL, my lazy stepfather calls me down to do something for him every few minutes, so the stress level doesn't go down as quickly as I would like
[22:56] <Flannel> We all have things outside of IRC we need to deal with.  You just need to make sure you deal with them responsibly.
[22:56] <Pricey> Hi stefg, can I help you?
[22:57] <mnaines> Of course, but its his house, his rules...If I don't like his rules, my only option is to leave, and I have no money nor do I have any place to go, so I'm stuck here
[22:57] <stefg> please someone kick Admin_
[22:57] <maco> stefg: which channel?
[22:57] <Flannel> stefg: #u
[22:57] <ikonia> I'm watching him
[22:57] <Flannel> er, maco
[22:57] <stefg> in #ubuntu .. DCC  the channel with something looking malware-ish
[22:57] <ikonia> stefg: all sorted
[22:57] <stefg> thx
[22:58] <mnaines> ikonia: A guy with the same screen name has been attacking online gaming servers, too...
[22:58] <mnaines> The police were called on the guy once already
[22:58] <ikonia> that's not for this channel please
[22:58] <Myrtti> mnaines: that screen name is far from unique
[22:58] <Flannel> mnaines: How is that relevant?
[22:59] <mnaines> Flannel, its not...I was just informing him of that in case it turns out to be the same person...That way you guys would know what measures have already been taken
[23:02] <mnaines> I'm pretty sure you guys would want to know if there's a malicious user on the prowl, so that's why I said that
[23:03] <Myrtti> back to issue at hand?
[23:03] <mnaines> Very well
[23:07] <mnaines> Anyway, most of my behavior issues come from stress...My self control usually goes off a cliff if I've had too much caffeine or if I get stressed out
[23:08] <mnaines> But then again, I think that happens to everyone
[23:08] <mnaines> I'm working on changing that, but its a time consuming and challenging process
[23:09] <Flannel> mnaines: It does, and they "fix" it by just excusing themselves from IRC when it's a bad idea.
[23:10] <topyli> nobody is interested in why someone misbehaves on irc. just don't. go for a walk
[23:12] <mnaines> Flannel, the other thing I am trying to "fix" is knowing when to keep my mouth shut and stop spontaneously jumping into the middle of conversations when I don't have all the information
[23:12] <mnaines> I do that a lot IRL, too
[23:12] <Flannel> mnaines: It's up to you to keep yourself in line, and it's our responsibility to make sure people do that (and force them to if they can't do it themselves).
[23:12] <mnaines> Hey...I'm working on it...But as I said, its time consuming and challenging...
[23:13] <mnaines> I know its something I need to do IRL, though
[23:13] <Flannel> mnaines: If you think you can police yourself, and won't go off the deep end if you need help from us in the future (like you did a few days ago), I'd consider giving you the benefit of the doubt and removing the ban.
[23:14] <mnaines> I'm trying to police myself...Its a bumpy road for anyone my age, but I'm trying my best
[23:15] <Flannel> mnaines: And do you think you'd react better in the future if we need to step in and help?
[23:16] <mnaines> I wouldn't mind you guys helping...Just don't try to stress me out anymore than I already am at the time
[23:18] <mnaines> Best way to help is just to give me time to vent...Usually once I vent, my stress level goes back down and I return to normal
[23:18] <Flannel> No one tries to stress you out; we just try to keep the channels usable for everyone.
[23:18] <topyli> mnaines: no. that's not acceptible
[23:18] <Flannel> mnaines: That's why we suggested you come back in a few days, which, I might add, you didn't really follow.
[23:18] <mnaines> Because it doesn't take that long for me to calm down
[23:18] <Flannel> mnaines: but "venting" doesn't mean go to a different channel and act rudely
[23:19] <mnaines> Usually when I have to vent, letting me vent for an hour or so is enough
[23:19] <Flannel> mnaines: It's a safe period of time to ensure you've had a chance to think about stuff.
[23:19] <topyli> you never "vent" on ubuntu channels
[23:20] <mnaines> topyli: If there was a room for people to vent their stress, I would use it when I need to
[23:20] <maco> make one?
[23:20] <maco> ##venting?
[23:20] <Flannel> or, use real life.
[23:21] <maco> i find sitting down with a good novel is a nice way to relax
[23:21] <mnaines> Speaking of RL, I have to go get dinner, so I'll come back in and finish this once I'm back home
[23:21] <Mez> Using real life for relieving stress is good.. My advice... step away from the computer, go for a walk.. (or, normally in my case, a smoke) and come back later :D
[23:22] <topyli> mnaines: the thing is, we're concerned about ubuntu channels. if you bother them, and people are bothered, they will ask you to stop or change the subject. please do so. or go jogging or watch a movie
[23:22] <maco> he's gone
[23:22] <topyli> the channels are not for that
[23:22] <topyli> oh my masterpiece is lost! :)
[23:22] <genii-around> Hehe topyli
[23:25] <topyli> Flannel: i salute the Patient One
[23:27] <Flannel> Would've been nice to make some more progress, but I suppose that's what once-home is for.
[23:27] <Flannel> Alright, I'm going to go play with circuit breakers.  I'll be back in a smidge hopefully.
[23:28] <Mez> -!- Flannel [n=flannel@ubuntu/member/flannel] has disconnected ["Oops, wrong breaker"]
[23:28] <Flannel> No, that's why I'm leaving, because I've gotta power off my server.
[23:29] <Mez> this reminds me of one of the "Darwin Awards"
[23:31] <Mez> http://www.nndb.com/people/523/000095238/
[23:40] <topyli> we used to just kick the poles right where the maintenance cover is. you kick there, the light goes out from that pole for about 5min
[23:40] <topyli> not sure if they still do, this was in the 70s
[23:41] <topyli> so we ran around the block and put out all the lights and said woohoo it's dark
[23:41] <topyli> don't ask me why, we were 5 to 8 or so
[23:42]  * genii-around sips
[23:46] <topyli> hmm haven't tried for about 30 years, i'm sort of curious whether or not they still go out if you give them a good kick right there :)
[23:54] <mnaines> ok...I am back.  Had boneless honey barbecue wings from Wendy's for dinner