[00:13] <genii-around> !dle | mnaines
[00:13] <genii-around> !idle | mnaines
[00:13] <maco> genii-around: he's waiting for Flannel to return
[00:13] <maco> Flannel had to go deal with a server issue
[00:14] <genii-around> maco: OK, so legitimate
[00:14] <maco> aye
[00:14]  * genii-around hands mnaines a coffee
[00:14] <mnaines> maco, did the logs catch my comment about needing to go get dinner and that I would be right back?
[00:14] <maco> yes
[00:15] <mnaines> ok...Just wondering...
[00:15] <maco> i think genii missed it
[00:15] <mnaines> He can't read them himself?
[00:15] <maco> i dont think he scrolled up :P
[00:16] <genii-around> My irc client normally records all backlog but right now I'm on my backup
[00:16] <mnaines> backup?  Why?
[00:16] <maco> genii-around: the core's back up dude
[00:16] <genii-around> maco: Ah, thanks
[00:16] <maco> mnaines: because the server he and i use for irc was offline for a bit
[00:16] <mnaines> Ah...So you two are buddies
[00:17] <mnaines> Or is that the server that runs this room?
[00:17] <maco> no one of the other ops has a server that he lets some of us use
[00:17] <mnaines> Linux server?
[00:18] <genii-around> Yes.
[00:18] <maco> i assume so. the software we're using is called quassel
[00:18] <genii-around> maco: Still not up for me. I'll try again later
[00:18] <maco> we connect our quasselclients to the quassel core and then we dont miss what happens when we're offline because the core catches the scrollback
[00:19] <mnaines> Ah...So its a dedi
[00:19] <mnaines> (Gamer-speak for dedicated server, meaning a server that stays online even when the host signs off)
[00:19]  * genii sips
[00:20] <genii> Back.
[00:21] <mnaines> Another term gamers like myself use is "You have to pay to play", which we generally use to mean "If you want to run the good games, you have to pay to get a top-of-the-line system"
[00:21] <maco> hello corebuddy
[00:22] <maco> mnaines: and thats why console gaming is more fair
[00:22] <maco> wiat im OT now
[00:22]  * genii slips maco a nice Ubuntu mug of coffee
[00:22] <mnaines> Plus, console gaming is easier because then you don't have to crowd multiple TVs and game systems in one place just to have more than one person playing
[00:23] <mnaines> There's always a debate about which has better graphics and better performance, though I'm not going to start that debate up in here
[00:30] <mnaines> I've been waiting for you, Flannel
[00:31] <Flannel> I was off playing with electricity
[00:32] <mnaines> One of my biggest fears, even though I spend most of my time dissecting computers
[00:32] <mnaines> Flannel, I found a youtube video you'd like
[00:33] <mnaines> Only 3 minutes long, but is calm and anonymous, like watching a movie
[00:46] <mnaines> Anyway, you ready to finish our conversation about the banishment, flannel?
[00:49] <Flannel> Sure
[00:49]  * genii settles in
[00:52] <mnaines> Anyway, where were we before I left?
[00:55] <Flannel> We were discussing venting, how ubuntu channels aren't the place, real life, no one's trying to aggravate you, just keep ubuntu usable,
[00:55] <Flannel> In the opposite order of that, I was reading backwards, but those were recent topic stuffs
[00:57] <mnaines> Yeah...I usually can know when my stress level is going up, but sometimes, I get distracted and by the time I figure it out, its already too late
[01:00] <mnaines> Now, about removing that ban...?
[01:01] <Flannel> At the moment my biggest concern is how you'll react if the ops need to step in in the future, since you didn't react in the best of manners this time
[01:02] <mnaines> I don't know if you realize this, but some people do learn from their mistakes
[01:03] <Flannel> You don't need to get snippy.  We can't assume you've learned, but no one said you hadn't, that's why I'm asking.
[01:05] <mnaines> During our conversation before my dinner, I kept reiterating the fact that I am definitely trying to learn from my mistakes but that it is a time-consuming and challenging process on some of the things
[01:10] <Flannel> Alright.  Just know that being rude towards individuals will not be tolerated, so if someone points out that you're getting off topic, or ranting or whatever, you should respect that, instead of attacking them.
[01:12] <mnaines> Only reason I attacked them is because I felt I had no place to go to talk about random stuff
[01:13] <Flannel> Er, how does that work?  Instead of asking where you can go, you attack someone for reminding you to follow the rules?
[01:14] <mnaines> Up until this morning, people had been trying to keep the off-topic room on the subject of Ubuntu as well, but as the day progressed, it turned into a place for ubuntu users to talk about random stuff...That's the way it should have been all this time
[01:15] <mnaines> I figure as long as the conversations are clean, it should be a place for anyone in the Ubuntu community to talk about anything not pertaining to technical support
[01:16] <Flannel> It's always been a place for random stuff as long as it's in the spirit of Ubuntu.  No one tries to keep the topics ubuntu only
[01:17] <mnaines> It just seemed like people were trying to keep it ubuntu-related...I just wanted it to be a place where Ubuntu users could go when they don't need tech help
[01:17] <Flannel> No, it's not kept ubuntu related, and you know that, having participated it in over the past few days.
[01:18] <mnaines> Yeah...It just happened that when I got to talking about Windows in that room, several admins complained about it
[01:18] <mnaines> That's why I thought that
[01:19] <mnaines> The problem with talking bad about Windows in a Windows room is then you start getting hated like the plague
[01:20] <Flannel> mnaines: There's a difference between having a conversation and going off on a monologue or a rant.  I believe the latter is what was taken exception to.
[01:21] <mnaines> I am trying to break that habit...I have always had a habit of rambling on about random stuff when I get bored
[01:21] <Flannel> If you're being engaging to the rest of the channel, and everything is in the spirit of Ubuntu, there's no reason for it to be stopped.
[01:22] <mnaines> If by "in the spirit of Ubuntu" you mean keeping it on the topic of Ubuntu, well, you now understand what my complaint is
[01:22] <mneptok> !o4o
[01:22] <Flannel> No, "in the spirit of ubuntu" has nothing to do with being related to Ubuntu
[01:23] <mnaines> Basically what I interpret the off-topic room to be is a place for open discussion among Ubuntu users...Its just a place where Ubuntu users can go when they don't need help so they don't make too much noise in the support room...
[01:23] <Flannel> Keep the code of conduct and the IRC guidelines in mind and use those as a meter of appropriateness of conversation.
[01:24] <Flannel> No one's saying it isn't, nor have they said it isn't.
[01:24] <Flannel> but "open" doesn't mean "everything"
[01:24] <mnaines> As long as my interpretations and the real thing are both the same, I can understand that
[01:25] <mnaines> I didn't think operating system conversations were that controversial
[01:25] <mnaines> I also didn't think debates were controversial
[01:25] <Flannel> No, they're not.  But you weren't having a conversation at that point, if I remember correctly.
[01:26] <Flannel> I might be mistaken, I wasn't paying attention
[01:27] <mnaines> I thought I was just stating my beliefs but not directing them at any one person
[01:27] <Flannel> Perhaps you should ask the people who asked you to stop, they'll definately be able to clarify
[01:27] <Flannel> If I knew who they were, I'd ping them for you.
[01:28] <mnaines> Don't waste your time...
[01:28] <mneptok> Flannel: mind if i interject something quickly?
[01:28] <Flannel> Well, there's obviously a question about it, and having clarification should lead to a decrease in conflict in the future.
[01:28]  * mneptok has to go make dinner soon
[01:28] <Flannel> mneptok: By all means
[01:28] <mneptok> mnaines: as regards you discussing your hatred of Windows ...
[01:29] <mneptok> mnaines: you know that Linux is a pile of crap developed by a Finnish mouth-breather, and that anyone that uses it is a knuckle-dragging troglodyte that only obeys a herd mentality. right?
[01:29] <mneptok> mnaines: i suggest OpenBSD. real men use that. you're obviously a Linux loser.
[01:30] <mneptok> mnaines: now ... does that make you feel particularly warm toward the OpenBSD community?
[01:30] <mnaines> I wouldn't be surprised, mneptok...Most of the more user-friendly distros don't teach command-line, so I will agree they aren't all that great
[01:30] <mneptok> mnaines: does it make you think "wow, maybe this person is onto something. they sound like a fun, understanding, and capable group. i want to check that out!"
[01:31] <mneptok> it wouldn;t make me think so.
[01:31] <mneptok> i'd think "this pompous widbag can shove his opinions, and his 'OpenBSD' whatever that is."
[01:31] <mnaines> Try getting away with that in a Windows room
[01:31] <mneptok> in short, "you draw more flies with honey."
[01:32] <mneptok> want to convert a Windows user? help them get their machine working again, even though all the supposed MCSE's they have talked to have failed.
[01:32] <mnaines> It also depends on how well you can tolerate insults...I've seen people who go ballistic the moment they feel insulted
[01:32] <mneptok> when they thank you, say something along the lines of, "i'm actually surprised i could help. i haven't used Windows much in years. i use Linux. ask me about it sometime."
[01:33] <mnaines> If someone said that to me, I wouldn't be impressed
[01:33] <mneptok> that makes them think "the people that really know computers use Linux" rather than "the pompous, self-righteous idiots use something called Linux that i will NOT be bothered to look at."
[01:33] <mneptok> nome sane?
[01:34] <mneptok> you don't really get ahead by shoving the other guy backwards.
[01:34] <mnaines> To me, "the people who really know computers" are the ones who can work on any computer regardless of the OS and are not biased towards or against any one OS
[01:34] <mneptok> mnaines: exactly.
[01:34] <mneptok> mnaines: and you sound damned biased.
[01:35] <mneptok> ennyhoo, off to make dinner.
[01:35] <mnaines> I don't see it as biased...I see it as telling them the truth...Every one of the techies I know won't say anything bad about anything they work on because they make money selling people things they don't need
[01:35] <mneptok> think about that. and thanks for the airtime Flannel.
[01:36] <mnaines> I don't work like that most of the time...My business strategy with my own computer company is telling people everything about a product, including its disadvantages or flaws, then letting the customer decide on their own which one they want
[01:38] <mnaines> I let the product sell itself...I just tell the customer everything they want to know about the product
[01:39] <mnaines> It pays off for me because that generates repeat business...Customers see that and say "This guy isn't pushy and isn't trying to sell me something I don't need, so I'm definitely coming back here if I need something"
[01:39] <Flannel> #ubuntu isn't about selling anything.  It's about providing support.  Someone asked how to dual boot with windows, it's not our place to tell them to upgrade to Win7 Super-deluxe edition from home, nor is it our place to tell them to ditch windows.  Obviously they have a need for windows, or want to give it a try, or whatever.
[01:40] <spO> hi
[01:40] <mnaines> Yeah, but in that case, I would tell them what flaws Windows has them let them decide if they want to take that risk
[01:40] <mnaines> If they need windows, maybe they can find a way to off-set those flaws
[01:40] <mnaines> Or maybe you can tell them how to
[01:41] <spO> can you guys please unban me from #ubuntu , i was banned because i was trolling in #launchpad , but i didn't do anything like trolling in #ubuntu .  I was trolling because i wanted a ban, but i don't know why i was banned from another channel or someone had botnet scripts or something
[01:42] <spO> i mean if i troll in #politics , that means i get a banned from #ubuntu?
[01:42] <Flannel> mnaines: #ubuntu is not the place for your evangelism.  Moreso, you weren't telling them flaws, you were telling them anecdotes, and in one case, a flat out lie.  Making someone worry about dual booting isn't going to make them want to give up Windows.
[01:42] <spO> come on, we can have  contextual ethics, we don't need to be so universal
[01:42] <mneptok> spO: you were banned because i felt your behavior in #launchpad was egregious enough to warrant the bad karma in other Ubuntu-related channels.
[01:43] <mnaines> mneptok: Can I interject into that for a second?
[01:43] <mneptok> mnaines: you may not.
[01:44] <spO> mneptok, that is fine , personally, but i don't understand how feelings merits anything in a rational universe  (ie, i don't know what feelings has to do with anything whereas rational is superior),. Furthermore, i would like a third party to intervene in decision making if you are going to use your feelings in judgment rather than rational
[01:44] <mnaines> Aww...I was simply going to give the Golden Rule
[01:44] <spO> i assure you , i did not mean to cause grief or fear of any behavior in #ubuntu
[01:45] <spO> i didn't intend on doing anything in there
[01:45] <mneptok> spO: jussi01 said he would discuss it. but remember, trying an exploit in ANY channel on Freenode gets you banned from the network. by your logic, anyone trying an exploit cannot be removed from the network until they try it in every channel. that's simply insane.
[01:45] <spO> i would like someone else to intervene if you are going to use mystic like concepts that i do not really understand , like "karma"
[01:46] <mneptok> spO: well, that intervention will not be happening now, as jussi_01 is asleep.
[01:46] <mneptok> spO: try either very late tonight US time, or tomorrow.
[01:46] <spO> if you want to be vendictive or overzealous, can you please gline me from all of freenode ?
[01:47] <spO> to further your point
[01:47] <spO> because your feelings merit something or because karma is something qualifiable
[01:48] <spO> ie, i did lots of bad things to ants this morning, that makes karma ought to attack me via gline
[01:48] <mneptok> spO: repeat the behavior you exhibited in #launchpad in #freenode and other channels, and i'm sure Freenode staff would be happy to oblige.
[01:48] <spO> you suggested that one channel has the same rules of all channels, and that trolling in one channel merits (feeling or karma based) bans in other channels
[01:49] <spO> ie, so ban me from all channels
[01:49] <spO> seriously, you are overzealous, and i will come back later
[01:49] <spO> i don't understand why you don't just put your feelings in check
[01:49] <mneptok> your reductio ad absurdum is a weak and flawed strategy.
[01:51] <spO> i am attacking your logic as absurd based on its merits of being feeling or karma based
[01:51] <spO> instead of rationally based
[01:52] <mneptok> good night, spO.
[01:52] <mneptok> this is not going to be resolved now.
[01:52] <mneptok> you need to wait for jussi_01
[01:52] <mneptok> please leave until then.
[01:53] <mneptok> some context for the morbidly curious: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/261023/
[01:59] <mnaines> No wonder he got kicked out
[02:00] <mnaines> He seems to be the type of person who doesn't even realize what he did was wrong
[02:00] <mnaines> I'm willing to hazard a guess that he's a teenager
[02:01] <mnaines> Young and cocky, and like all teenagers, he seems to think everything that happens is someone else's fault
[02:03] <mnaines> Unfortunately, I must speak my mind about that and say that society is to blame for that sort of thing...Adults make that same mistake, and their children see that behavior and think it is perfectly acceptable because the adults go unpunished for pointing fingers
[02:04] <mnaines> A person not taking responsibility for their actions sets a bad example for their children and for anyone who looks up to them
[02:05] <mnaines> Far too many people get away with pointing fingers these days
[02:06] <mnaines> It happens sometimes IRL, too, when men get drunk and a woman ends up pregnant...Some of those men then think its not their kid and that's when things just go downhill
[02:08] <mnaines> I've also met teenagers who have an "All women are good for is sex" mentality, and I do my best to stay as far away from them as I can, but it sickens me that there are people like that in this world
[02:09] <mnaines> And then there are the teenagers who have an "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality...And their parents think they are perfect little angels who can do no wrong
[02:10] <mnaines> These are the same kind of parents who buy their teenagers high-horsepower hotrods and expect their kids to "drive safely"
[02:13] <mnaines> As a cop once told me..."If you tell the truth, you will still get in trouble, but the consequences will not be as severe as they would be if you lie to me"
[02:13] <mnaines> The cop then said "If you tell me the truth, I may consider letting you go with just a warning"
[02:16] <mnaines> That stemmed from a time I got pulled over for having a broken headlight...I told the cop I had a knife on me and then I told him if he lets me out of the car, I'll prove to him that he can trust me and put the knife on the hood of his car...He obliged and after that, he asked if there were anymore weapons in the car, and when I said no, he told me to tell him the truth, so I gave him consent to search the car and it turned out it was the truth
[02:17] <mnaines> After everything was all said and done, he wrote me a fix-it ticket for the broken headlight then sent me on my way...I wasn't nailed for carrying a concealed weapon
[02:18] <Pici> !idle
[02:20] <mnaines> Pici: I was waiting to finish my conversation with Flannel about my own banishment...Since he went quiet after mneptok was interrupted, I figured I might as well voice my opinion on what happened
[02:21] <Flannel> I'm here, just biding time
[02:22] <mnaines> Me, too...I don't believe we have anything more to discuss about my ban, Flannel.  I think it should be clear by now that your questions have been answered
[02:22] <mnaines> Unless you still have questions...
[02:23] <Flannel> mnaines: So you'll be better about getting input from people in the future, yes?
[02:24] <mnaines> I can't make promises, Flannel...I rarely ever do in situations like this because I doubt I can keep them.  All I can say is, I am working as hard as I can to keep myself under control
[02:25] <Flannel> Alright.  I'll go ahead and remove the ban, just remember everything that's been covered over the past few days.  Hopefully you won't have to join this channel again in the future.
[02:26] <mnaines> If I do, it should hopefully not be about a ban...
[02:27] <mnaines> I may come in here again if incidents like what mneptok had to deal with come up, or if I get wind of malicious users
[02:28] <Flannel> Right, you're always welcome to let us know about problems, etc.
[02:28] <Flannel> My comment was just about in this sort of situation, not in general.
[02:29] <Flannel> However if there's nothing else for us to discuss at the moment, I will ask you please not to idle here.
[02:29] <mnaines> Very well
[02:30] <Flannel> Oh shoot
[02:30] <Flannel> forgot to verify his ban is removed
[02:30] <Flannel> Well, BT says it is, so I'll go by that
[02:31] <Flannel> and of course, can't message him.
[02:31]  * Flannel grumbles.
[02:52] <maco> he's in #ubuntu, so it is
[02:52] <Flannel> Indeed.  Running at full speed touching as many topics as he can.
[02:53] <Flannel> Or he was, he may've slowed down now.  Hopefully.
[02:57] <maco> hey, clocks. i should learn to use them
[03:08] <Flannel> er?
[03:31] <bazhang> casa flooding nonsense in #kubuntu
[05:04] <spO> hi
[05:05] <spO> i am banned from #ubuntu  , how long am i banned?  i am banned because i was trolling in another channel , #launchpad  ,  i didn't know the two channels were interconnected or that banning in one channel merited banning in another (for reasons of karma or feelings)
[05:05] <spO> i am sorry
[05:07] <spO> mostly, i thought feelings could be used to justify generousity or caring for others, but i didn't take into account about how feelings of anger or some other related feelings were good justification
[05:08] <spO> this is probably some kind of cultural misunderstanding  ... (hence, also not understadning or taking into account karma based actions)
[05:21] <Flannel> spO: While you're here waiting for jussi 01, I'm curious.  Why did you decide to troll #launchpad?
[05:54] <spO> because i thought it would be an entertaining way to part the channel including inhibit my autojoin list
[05:54] <spO> ie, i wanted to get banned
[05:55] <spO> from that channel because i have too many opened channels and i need to also inhibit my auto join list
[05:56] <spO> i wanted to get banned from that #launchpad , but if i wanted to get banned from any other channel including #ubuntu , i would have trolled in any other channel to,  But i didn't troll in any other channel
[05:56] <spO> thus, i was surprised about getting banned from other channels
[05:56] <Flannel> spO: So, whenever you decide you don't want to be in a channel anymore, you'll just troll so you get banned?
[05:57] <spO> if i don't want to be in a channel anymore and i want to stop autojoining that channel,  getting banned from that channel is one way
[05:58] <spO> alternatively i could have asked for a ban rather than trolled
[05:58] <spO> or i could have parted and changed my autojoin list
[05:58] <Madpilot> most people just modify their IRC client's startup setup, you know...
[05:59] <spO> i guess
[08:52] <ikonia> spO: jussi01 is not around at the moment. Please come back later
[13:14] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[17:48] <ryanakca> Is there anything to do for someone who's been reconnecting to #kubuntu-devel every minute or half or so since 11? (Now 12:47) ... They've stopped for a few minutes, but if/when it restarts...
[17:54] <Amaranth> ryanakca: find someone in the access list
[17:55] <Amaranth> ryanakca: looks like they're all away for several hours/days though
[17:56] <Amaranth> you could see if staff would step in, they're on the access list (twice actually)
[17:56] <Amaranth> hmm, they're away too
[17:56] <Amaranth> ryanakca: Looks like the answer is there is nothing we can do right now
[17:56] <nhandler> Need something?
[17:57] <Amaranth> nhandler: Apparently #kubuntu-devel is having some problems with someone with a bad connection and everyone on the access list is gone
[17:57] <Amaranth> I guess if they keep up we need a forward to ##fix_your_connection or whatever :P
[17:58] <nhandler> jussi01 might be around
[17:58] <Amaranth> idle 3 hours right now but I don't know what timezone
[17:59] <mneptok> ryanakca: one mo'
[17:59] <nhandler> If not, and if he continues to have connection problems, I can step in if desired
[17:59] <mneptok> ryanakca: nick?
[17:59]  * mneptok is on the #k access list
[17:59] <Amaranth> mneptok: no you aren't...
[17:59] <Amaranth> mneptok: #kubuntu-devel
[18:00] <mneptok> oh
[18:16] <nhandler> I set a ban forward on him to ##fix_your_connection. Would someone here like to explain the issue to him when he joins there? Otherwise, I can
[18:22] <ikonia> nhandler: no problem
[18:47] <ryanakca> nhandler: thanks
[18:48] <nhandler> ryanakca: You are welcome
[18:52] <Alvinware> Where's the #ubuntu channel now?
[19:54] <Flannel> !away > papapep
[19:54] <Flannel> !away > Ph`
[20:46] <Flannel> Anyone else get a CTCP ping from losher?
[20:48] <nhandler> Nope