[00:12] <spacelime> hello people
[00:12] <spacelime> Is anyone up for a few minutes of coaching a rookie?
[00:13] <spacelime> i'de like to translate a few things in Aptitude to swedish
[00:15] <shtylman> spacelime: considered talking to upstream about it?
[00:17] <spacelime> shtylman: oh.. that's probably the way to go.. i don't really know how this works=)
[00:18] <spacelime> is aptitude a part of the debian project?
[00:22] <shtylman> spacelime: don't know :/ maybe someone else here does? or try #debian ... they may know where to go
[00:23] <spacelime> cool, thank you!
[00:23] <shtylman> no prob...good luck :)
[00:34] <DasKreech> spacelime: It's in theory not a part of debian it's it's own project. having said that talk to #debian
[01:14] <JontheEchidna> vorian: could you put on your motu-release hat and look at bug 420553 please?
[02:34] <JontheEchidna> vorian: thanks, I assume I can just upload now?
[02:40] <ScottK> If it's in Universe, yes.
[02:40] <JontheEchidna> okie-doke
[02:41] <JontheEchidna> well, techinically it's not anywhere yet
[02:42] <JontheEchidna> but it will be once it's out of New
[02:44] <lex79> do we need FFE for new releases of plasmoids ? :(
[02:46] <ScottK> lex79: If it's not a bugfix only release, yes.
[02:46] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Did I promise to do the New review on that?
[02:49] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: yeah, the logs seem to say so
[02:50] <ScottK> OK
[02:50]  * ScottK was afraid of that.
[02:50] <ScottK> Probably tomorrow sometime before I can get to it.
[02:50] <JontheEchidna> hehe
[03:28] <spstarr> hmm
[03:28] <spstarr> you know, we do not need nspluginwrapper anymore ;)
[03:29] <spstarr> at least with flash 64bit (unofficial plugin) from Adobe labs for linux
[03:29] <spstarr> i just saved 132MB :)
[03:30] <ScottK> spstarr: We do.  Canonical's contract with Adobe only allows them to distribute final versions of Flash and the 64bit one isn't released yet.
[03:33] <spstarr> ooh
[03:33] <spstarr> i just removed it cause it crashed too much for me, but i did not realize it was installed until firefox froze :)
[03:34] <ScottK> I'd guess that's fine for you personally, but it's not a *buntu solution yet.
[03:34] <spstarr> right
[03:34] <spstarr> though whats taking Adobe so long to release the plugin 'officially' ?
[03:37] <ScottK> Who knows?
[03:38] <spstarr> it doesnt matter to me, the alpha plugin hasn't given me many problems
[04:56] <spstarr> heh
[04:56] <spstarr> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
[04:56] <spstarr> 0x00007f5f6f94bcf2 in ?? () from /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libflashplayer.so
[04:56] <spstarr> stupid flash crap :)
[06:18] <nixternal> w00t, hax0red the docs into shape graphically wise
[06:27] <ScottK> JontheEchidna or Riddell: How about a userconfig that doesn't ship .pyc files in the .deb?
[06:43] <jussi01> hrm, Im getting issues with apturl - anyone else getting and issue updating it? I get: error creating directory './usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/AptUrl/gtk': no such file or directory
[06:45] <ScottK> Install the Gnome apturl and see if it goes away.
[06:45] <ScottK> Then when it does, file a bug and slap apachelogger next time you see him.
[06:46] <jussi01> hehe
[06:46] <jussi01> do you know the package name?
[06:47] <ScottK> No.
[06:47] <ScottK> I suspect just apturl
[06:47] <ScottK> That's a guess though
[07:55] <nixternal> new kubuntu-docs package uploaded :)  looking better than it has in a while actually...still have a bit of work to do on it, so if you know anyone who understands DocBook/XML and wants to help, let me know :)
[08:04] <nixternal> Riddell or ScottK: if possible, can you give back kubuntu-docs? there was a bug in the changes file uploaded
[08:21] <nixternal> Riddell or ScottK: disregard that last..I did upload the correct package..just double checked
[08:27] <nixternal> that scared me for a second :)
[08:28] <nixternal> w00t, just got a bunch of "Closed" emails from that upload..now I can go to bed :)
[08:28] <nixternal> g'nite Kubuntu!
[10:55] <jussi01> !gpgerr
[10:55] <jussi01> is there a reason we are not giving out that ^^ command when we put things on the website with the PPA?
[11:00] <Riddell> what do we have?
[11:00] <Riddell> shtylman: ubiquity is looking lovelyer each release
[11:00] <Riddell> keyboard working well here
[11:01] <Riddell> no slideshow though, what's missing for that to be turned on?
[11:07] <ryanakca> jussi01: http://www.kubuntu.org/faq/PPA-keys ...
[11:08] <jussi01> ryanakca: I meant about this: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.3.1
[11:09] <ryanakca> The PPA-release tepmlates need to be updated to use the new link...
[11:09] <jussi01> ryanakca: ok.... who does that? you?
[11:09] <ryanakca> I'll quickly update that page, but the template will have to wait until I get back from school
[11:09] <jussi01> ryanakca: ok, great :)
[11:11] <ryanakca> 3fixed
[11:11] <ryanakca> s/3//
[11:44] <jussi01> excellent :)
[11:50] <Nightrose> hey folks :)
[11:50] <Nightrose> amarok 2.2 beta 1 is tagged and about to be released
[11:51] <Nightrose> is there a way it can still be considered for karmik?
[11:51] <Nightrose> 2.1.1 is pretty good already but 2.2 will bring lots of improvements and with the release of beta 1 we are in freeze now
[11:52] <Nightrose> http://padoca.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/amarok-2-2-reloaded-revamped-rethinked-reeverything/  has a review to consider
[11:53] <Riddell> Nightrose: about to be released means on Friday isn't it?
[11:53] <Nightrose> jep
[11:53] <Riddell> Nightrose: it depends on the schedule for 2.2 final
[11:54] <Nightrose> current plan is beta 2 on september 14th and final september 28th
[11:54] <Nightrose> but that might slip of course a little
[11:54] <Riddell> that could work, would be in time for our beta
[11:55] <Nightrose> what would be needed from our side?
[11:55] <Nightrose> any specific dates that need to be met?
[11:55] <Riddell> don't be later than 28th :)
[11:55] <Nightrose> hehe ok - i'll poke the guys
[11:56] <Riddell> it'll need to go through the FFe process
[11:56] <Riddell> is there a list of release blocker bugs?
[11:57] <Nightrose> i'll have a look - so far there is no blocker list
[12:04] <Nightrose> Riddell: i'll get you a blocker list by tonight somehow
[12:07] <shtylman> Riddell: :)
[12:10] <davmor2> shtylman: did you get my bug about the installer icon not being in the default folderview?
[12:11] <shtylman> davmor2: nope
[12:12] <davmor2> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/422667
[12:16] <Riddell> davmor2: yeah, I know what causes that but I think we'll just live with it for this alpha
[12:16] <davmor2> Riddell: cool
[12:33] <Riddell> davmor2: after logging in my laptop don't register keystrokes unless you hold it down for a second, have you seen that at all?#
[12:36] <davmor2> Riddell: no not at all.  But I haven't tried the very latest iso on Kubuntu yet give me half an hour I'll let you know
[12:48] <Riddell> davmor2: actually it started happening a few days ago after an upgrade, and it happened in gnome too
[12:49] <davmor2> Riddell: it might be a screwy upgrade then I've not had any issues using the system from live,alternate or installed
[12:57] <jussi01> who was it that was saying that you can at least create a usb with kde's USB creator? I cant....
[13:28] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: Do you want to reject the one with .pyc and I'll upload a new one?
[13:28] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: btw, did you say that you had a version number for this release?
[13:32] <ghostcube> helo humans O/
[13:40] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Rejected.
[13:47] <JontheEchidna> ok, so no pyc files in the upstream source, the problem must occur on build
[13:48] <JontheEchidna> Would a DEB_COMPRESS_EXCLUDE := .pyc fix it?
[13:57] <ScottK> No.  That just keeps them from being turned into tgz's.
[13:58] <ScottK> You may need to rm them somewhere.
[13:58] <ScottK> Not sure why you got them.
[14:00] <JontheEchidna> hmm
[14:12] <davmor2> Riddell: in live cd mode I've just gone into terminal and everything is fine :(  Must be your system
[14:12] <Riddell> yes I think it's something specific to my system
[14:13] <Riddell> and it's fine before I log in so it's something starting at the log in that's the issue
[14:15] <davmor2> Riddell: time for a new laptop I think :)
[14:28] <davmor2> Riddell: iso will need respinning :(
[14:31] <Riddell> davmor2: why?
[14:32] <davmor2> Riddell: grub2 fixes and ubiquity
[14:32] <Riddell> mm, so I see
[14:33] <ghostcube> hmmm is grub2 so gaood as its wriiten in the wild :D
[14:33] <ghostcube> only read about it not tested so far
[14:33] <bakkdoor> hi
[14:33] <ScottK> Riddell: What do you think about a -meta upload for us while we wait?  http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/263808/
[14:35] <davmor2> ScottK: get your requests in soon :)
[14:35] <ScottK> That's what I'm doing.
[14:35] <ScottK> davmor2: Riddell's on Ubuntu Release, so he can OK it.
[14:40] <ghostcube> anyone needs the cpp code for an windows skype trojan ?
[14:40] <ghostcube> -_-
[14:40] <ghostcube> an firm in swiss made it
[14:40] <ghostcube> *company
[14:40] <ScottK> No, but I probalby wouldn't admit it in a logged channel if I did.
[14:41] <ghostcube> its already on news
[14:41] <ghostcube> :D
[14:41] <ghostcube> you can grab it in .nl
[14:41] <ghostcube> no secret anymore
[14:41] <ghostcube> i wouldnt tell if i only knew it lol
[14:42] <Riddell> ScottK: yeah go for it
[14:43] <ScottK> Riddell: Uploaded.
[14:50] <Riddell> ScottK: I just added kubuntu-docs back to the seed, maybe another -meta upload to add that?
[14:50] <ScottK> Crap. Go for it.
[14:50] <ScottK> Riddell: I'm going to take a nap.  All yours.
[15:04] <ScottK> Riddell: casper didn't make the publisher run (which it looks like didn't happen anyway) so I guess there's plenty of time.  Still want me to update kubuntu-meta again?
[15:06] <bakkdoor> Riddell: have you checked out my packages yet? :)
[15:07] <Riddell> bakkdoor: just in the process
[15:07] <bakkdoor> Riddell: alright, cool
[15:13] <ScottK> Riddell: I have the updated kubuntu-meta (with docs) ready.  Still want it?
[15:14] <Riddell> ScottK: I've already uploaded it
[15:14] <Riddell> you're ment to be napping
[15:14] <ScottK> Right.  Back to that then.
[15:17] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: 0.9.0
[15:18] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: kk, I'm testing out some buildsystem and packaging fixes to try to get .pyc outta the install
[15:18] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: python_install in the cmake generates the pycs
[15:19] <yuriy> i'm not really sure i got all the cmake stuff right anyways, especially for docs
[15:19] <JontheEchidna> I'm taking the "mimic guidance-power-manager's install system"
[15:19] <JontheEchidna> approach to fixing it
[15:22] <yuriy> hmm, i should look at that, i was only looking at system-config-printer as an example
[15:22] <Riddell> bakkdoor: installs and runs
[15:22] <Riddell> bakkdoor: packaging looks out of sync compared with ours/debian's from hardy but I guess if it works that's the important thing
[15:22]  * JontheEchidna sets a build running and goes off for a bit
[15:22] <bakkdoor> Riddell: alright, cool, good to know
[15:22] <Riddell> bakkdoor: no comments otherwise, looks good
[15:23] <Riddell> bakkdoor: of course the jaunty or karmic versions will be more complex as it'll need to conflict or do something sensible with KDE 4 kdepim
[15:23] <bakkdoor> Riddell: alright. i'm currently working on something different, but when i've packaged enterprise 4 for jaunty, i'll inform you :)
[15:24] <Riddell> oh enterprise 4 shouldn't be hard
[15:24] <Riddell> it's the kde 3 and 4 versions conflicting that would be fiddly
[15:24] <bakkdoor> Riddell: oh, you meant 3.5
[15:25] <bakkdoor> Riddell: true. but we're currently thinking on packaging enterprise 4 first. don't know about 3.5 for jaunty, maybe later
[15:26] <davmor2> Riddell: 151 update on todays iso
[15:28] <Riddell> davmor2: compared to when?
[15:28] <davmor2> Riddell: I don't know it's just todays iso :)
[15:29] <davmor2> 151 updates just sounded high
[15:29] <Riddell> this is kpackagekit notifying?
[15:29] <davmor2> Riddell: yes
[15:43]  * seele runs around like a crazy person
[15:43] <seele> was there something i was supposed to do? i've lost my todo list to life
[15:44] <Riddell> some combination of job, uni, teaching, running KDE, running KDE usability, helping Kubuntu?
[15:45] <Riddell> oh and getting married somewhere in there?
[15:45] <seele> yeah
[15:45] <seele> but the who married thing isnt taking up any time
[15:45] <seele> *whole
[15:46] <seele> and you forgot OpenUsability, the SoU wraps up this month
[15:46] <seele> wah
[15:46]  * seele goes back to bed
[15:52] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: I'm attempting switching from python_install to regular CMake install, as g-pm and system-config-printer also use that
[15:53]  * Nightrose hands seele a GTD book and rememberthemilk
[15:53] <Nightrose> ;-)
[15:53] <Nightrose> seele: got a wedding planner?
[15:53] <Nightrose> weddings not taking up any time is amazing
[15:53] <Nightrose> or just a nice mom? :F
[15:54] <seele> Nightrose: i got remember the milk, i just hadnt put everything in it yet :)
[15:54] <Nightrose> hehe
[15:54] <seele> Nightrose: wedding planner + mother, so i've got nothing to do :)
[15:54] <Nightrose> awesome
[15:55] <seele> yeah
[15:55] <seele> otherwise it would have been down to the courthouse and notice cards, not some fancy party
[15:55] <Nightrose> hehe
[15:57] <maco> one of my old roommates said her uncle was always getting married and divorced and married again. eventually her grandmother hypothesized that he just liked the big wedding receptions, so she started throwing him really big birthday parties every year. hasnt remarried since.
[15:58] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: yay, no more .pyc and as a bonus userconfig still works :P
[15:58]  * JontheEchidna pushes changes to bzr and prepares a new upload
[15:58] <seele> maco: haha
[15:59] <ambergris> hi. i'm trying to figure out how to keep the latest knetworkmanager package, which came with 4.3.1, to stop crashing on me. according to the bug report, this bug has been fixed, but we're getting a package of older source. can anyone confirm this for me?
[16:00] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: ok. why don't we install pyc's though? wouldn't that make startup faster for everyone?
[16:00] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: ScottK says we don't
[16:01] <JontheEchidna> rather, that we don't want to do that
[16:01] <JontheEchidna> maybe stuff bytecompiles different on different arches or something
[16:02] <JontheEchidna> but I tend to trust his judgement on pythonish things. Well, on other things too, but...
[16:34] <JontheEchidna> ScottK, yuriy: fixed userconfig uploaded
[16:34] <JontheEchidna> congrats userconfig team :)
[16:34] <yuriy> \o/
[16:35] <yuriy> as to your version question btw, it would be nice if LP displayed bzr tags mor prominently
[16:35] <yuriy> s/mor/more
[16:36]  * JontheEchidna nods
[16:55] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: thanks for putting in the work on packaging and the FFe
[17:02] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: you're welcome
[17:02] <nixternal> anyone here on the SRU?
[17:03] <JontheEchidna> thanks for finishing up the kde4 port, for that matter
[17:03] <nixternal> what's up with apturl this morning?
[17:03] <nixternal> thought we were in a freeze :)
[17:09]  * yuriy is confused what exactly is frozen considering the yet to come ayatana and xsplash stuff
[17:10] <JontheEchidna> currently all of main is frozen for the next alpha release, but apparently they had time before the next iso build to sneak stuff in, adding apturl to the cd seed
[17:10] <JontheEchidna> then there's feature freeze which can be bypassed with the appropriate exceptions
[17:12] <JontheEchidna> this seems to explain the reasons for doing xsplash after FF: http://www.netsplit.com/2009/09/02/making-a-splash/
[17:14] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: yeah i read that, that's what i'm poking fun at
[17:20] <seele> can someone send me a screenshot of the ayatana notification patch and what it looks like next to our regular notifications?
[17:21] <seele> besides some notifications having actions and others not, there is no reason why there should be any other noticable differences between notifications
[17:21] <seele> especially in position
[17:21] <seele> i have no idea how different the visual design is, but if it is a lot, then that is a problem too
[17:24] <yuriy> i think there was a screenshot in agateau's email
[17:24] <yuriy> http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/tmp/ayatana-notification.png no regular notifications on there though
[17:25] <agateau> seele: active notifications shows stacked to the systray, as before
[17:25] <seele> ah missed that
[17:25] <seele> agateau: and so any notification which doesnt have an action will use the ayatana thing and if they do then they use systray?
[17:25] <agateau> seele: yes
[17:26] <agateau> that's what the patch does
[17:26] <seele> agateau: is it by notification type or application?
[17:26]  * agateau would really like to now seele opinion on this
[17:26] <agateau> a notification is considered "passive" if it does not have any associated action
[17:27] <agateau> so an app could fire both types
[17:27] <seele> ok so notifications for the same app could be split between these two forms?
[17:27] <agateau> yes
[17:27] <seele> and you could potentially have notifications happening at the same time which divides the user's attention?
[17:28] <agateau> true
[17:31] <yuriy> what's the source package for knm in karmic?
[17:31] <agateau> seele: maybe they could be positioned at the same place as active notifications and "pushed up" when an active notification is shown?
[17:32] <seele> it still looks completely different
[17:32] <seele> can we create a systray popup theme so it looks like the ayatana one?
[17:32] <seele> really, i was expecting that these things were going to look the same, work together, except one would be clickable and the other one wouldnt
[17:33] <agateau> seele: both are using Plasma themes
[17:33] <agateau> but not the same elements
[17:33] <seele> the point is that they look like different objects
[17:33] <seele> they dont look related
[17:33] <agateau> I thought using the tooltip for passive notifications would look lighter
[17:33] <agateau> we could maybe patch plasma to use tooltips as well
[17:34] <seele> the tooltip yes, but the actual popup dialog looks completely different from the ayatana popup
[17:34]  * agateau thinks it would be very growl like
[17:34] <agateau> what do you mean with popup dialog?
[17:34] <agateau> the extender which contains the active notifications?
[17:35] <seele> i guess? i dont know the names of these things
[17:35] <agateau> the extender is the "container" of the active notifications
[17:35] <agateau> it's what gets toggled by the (i) icon
[17:36] <seele> and the container is what is displayed when the notification is first displayed and then the info is in a tooltip?
[17:36] <agateau> not exactly
[17:37] <agateau> extenders are generic containers: they are used for powerdevil and the calendar for example
[17:37] <agateau> and they can be stacked
[17:37] <agateau> the systray uses extenders to show its notifications
[17:37] <agateau> and extenders come with a specific look to make you think they slide in and out of the panel
[17:38] <agateau> and since they can be dragged around, they have a title bar and a close (x) button
[17:38] <Riddell> hum, openoffice.org-kde isn't on the CD
[17:39] <seele> agateau: right, but the point is the notification doesnt look like the tooltip which is what the ayatana notification looks like
[17:39] <seele> they need to look the same
[17:39] <seele> i dont knwo if that means changing what the kde notifications look like or the ayatana notifications look like
[17:39] <agateau> seele: would you be interested in trying to make active notifications look like tooltips?
[17:40] <seele> but if we stack them like you suggested, then they will look mismatched and unrelated
[17:40] <seele> agateau: that isn't a decision i can make. systray look and feel is controlled by the plasma project
[17:40] <agateau> this is what I meant with "growl like" :)
[17:40]  * agateau looks for a screenshot
[17:41] <agateau> The goal of this is to experiment with new ways to display notifications,
[17:41] <agateau> this would not be the default configuration
[17:43] <agateau> found a screenshot: http://apcmag.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/adium_growl.jpg
[17:43] <yuriy> i think it may make sense, with the ayatana experience enabled, to have action-ful notifications display the same as passive ones
[17:43] <seele> you can't really get full effect if the design is only partially working
[17:43] <agateau> yuriy: that would mean queuing active notifications... not sure we want this
[17:44] <seele> yuriy: you mean just use the ayatana notifications for everything if it is turned on?
[17:46] <yuriy> seele: pretty much. agateau: hmm... or growl like stacking as you were saying?
[17:46] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: currently it's in plasma-widget-networkmanagement
[17:46] <seele> yuriy: you know.. that's probably better than having mismatched notifications
[17:46] <seele> since it is for testing reasons and not on by default
[17:47] <agateau> seele: so, what would you advice?
[17:47] <seele> some notifications might be written awkward because actions are removed, but that's a risk of trying something in development
[17:47] <seele> agateau: i think all or none, as yuriy suggested
[17:47] <seele> enabling the ayatana notifcations should handle ALL notifications and the actions get dropped
[17:47] <yuriy> why can't you have actions on tooltip-looking notifications though?
[17:47] <seele> 1) it will make the notificatione xperience more consistent
[17:48] <seele> 2) it will allow us to get feedback regarding no actions on noticfications which normally have them
[17:48] <agateau> yuriy: one of the specific aspect of the ayatana notifications is that they fade out when you mouse over them
[17:48] <agateau> seele: ok, I can do this
[17:48] <agateau> but this is a bit different from what has been discussed at UDS
[17:49] <agateau> I would like to have ScottK input on this as well
[17:49] <seele> ah well maybe we should have a meeting to discuss this then
[17:49] <seele> i just dont see a benefit to splitting the notifications even if it is for a test
[17:49] <agateau> seele: yes
[17:49] <seele> espeially if it is a test
[17:49] <agateau> seele: I see your point
[17:49] <seele> i think the main concern was if it was default or not
[17:50] <seele> which it will not be, we will stick with the kde notifications by default
[17:50] <seele> but i am one person
[17:50] <agateau> true
[17:50] <agateau> how do one schedule a meeting?
[17:50]  * agateau is still new to some of kubuntu practices
[17:51] <seele> go to doodle.com and pick a week with some date/times
[17:51] <seele> send the meeting link in an email to kubuntu-devel and state why you want the meeting and allow people who want to participate schedule when they are available
[17:51] <seele> or.. we could continue this on the mailing list, but i think talking real-time is easier
[17:51] <agateau> ok, but we better hurry if we want this done before ui freeze
[17:52] <seele> or we could just get relevant people together on IRC without scheduling a public meeting
[17:52] <seele> me Riddell ScottK yuriy.. not sure who else.. rgreening Nightrose nixternal maybe
[17:52] <agateau> yes
[17:52] <agateau> I have to go now :/
[17:53]  * ScottK reads the backscroll
[17:53] <agateau> will you still be online in 2 or 3 hours?
[17:53] <seele> yes, i have a meeting i'm about to go to but should be back in 3 hours and available for 2-3 hours
[17:54] <agateau> ok, will come back then
[17:54] <Nightrose> i will not have time for a meeting until in a week - feel free to have one without me though
[17:54]  * Nightrose is all booked for the next week :(
[17:54] <Riddell> I'm away next Mon-Wed too
[17:56] <seele> ScottK: will you be around in a few hours?
[17:57] <ScottK> seele: For values up to ~4, yes.
[17:57] <seele> ScottK: 4 hours or 16:00? ;)
[17:57] <ScottK> seele: 4 hours.
[17:57] <seele> ok
[17:58] <seele> any comment on what agateau and i discussed? he said what i suggested wasnt what was decided at uds
[17:58] <seele> i think at uds you talked about splitting the notifications, but looking at the differences, i dont think it is a good solution
[17:58]  * ScottK still reading.
[17:59] <seele> it would be better to enable ayatana notifications for all notifications isntead of splitting them, for the previously enumerated reasons
[17:59] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: fyi, what really needs work is investigating the remaining bugs here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plasma-widget-network-manager that I haven't moved over to the new package name, seeing whether or not they still apply with the new applet
[18:00] <JontheEchidna> but I'm glad you think that the networkmanagement bugs are in good shape ^_^
[18:00] <yuriy> that was just looking down the status column on that page : )
[18:01] <JontheEchidna> you want a status column to look down? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde4libs
[18:01] <ScottK> seele: My view is that as long as it's not by default, maintainable, and the opt-in isn't too obnoxious then what notifications do in "Ayatana mode" is up to them.
[18:02] <ScottK> seele: Part of the advantage for Ayatana in agreeing to not be on by default was that gives them more freedom to be experimental.
[18:02] <JontheEchidna> kdebase/workspace bugs... not in such good shape, however
[18:03] <seele> ScottK: ok cool. i figured the "not default" thing was what was important, not what ayatana does when it gets turned on
[18:03]  * ScottK doesn't even want to think about what Ayatana does when it gets turned on.
[18:03] <ScottK> Sorry.  Couldn't be helped.
[18:04] <ScottK> seele: Not default and patched in such a way as to not cause a significant maintenance burden for us.
[18:07] <seele> ScottK: i think agateau said it was part of his job duty to maintain it so it shouldn't cost us anything
[18:08] <ScottK> seele: In general that's correct and from his description it sounds reasonably well designed.  In theory he might have done a ugly enough patch to make it a lot harder to touch the package for any reason.
[18:09] <ScottK> I'm reasonably confident that part is fine even before I look.
[18:09] <seele> ScottK: ok cool
[18:10] <seele> eek, got to run to a meeting
[18:10] <ScottK> seele: From a design perspective think the opt-in process is what we should care about the most.
[18:10] <ScottK> OK.  See you.
[18:13] <rgreening> hey all
[18:19] <EagleScreen> hello
[18:19] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: ooh!
[18:19] <EagleScreen> I have recently installed Kubuntu 9.10 daily snapshot
[18:20] <EagleScreen> Why is not Arora installed by default?
[18:21] <EagleScreen> isn't it the default web browser?
[18:21] <JontheEchidna> nope, not any more. It still should be on the CD, though
[18:21] <Riddell> it's not on the CD
[18:21] <JontheEchidna> dvd? I seem to recall it being available somewhere
[18:21] <Riddell> yes DVD
[18:22] <EagleScreen> Kubuntu-firefox-installer installs apturl and a lof of gtk libraries, is it intended?
[18:23] <Riddell> firefox is gtk
[18:23] <EagleScreen> yes I know, but those all libraries are not necessary to install and run Firefox
[18:23] <nixternal> out of the blue IM job deals...I like that
[18:25] <EagleScreen> kubuntu-firefox-installer has installed more then 100 packages
[18:25] <JontheEchidna> apturl recently got a kde port, so ubufox should not bring in quite so much gnome in the near future
[18:25] <JontheEchidna> ubufox was pulling in apturl, which pulled in synaptic, which pulled in half of gnome
[18:26] <EagleScreen> kubuntu-firefox-installer has installed ubufox, synaptic, gnome-app-install and more... more than 100 packages related to Gnome/Gtk
[18:26] <JontheEchidna> but it's not really anything new, the problem's been there since intrepid
[18:27] <EagleScreen> I think the order to install Firefox in kubuntu-firefox-installer is very bad
[18:27] <JontheEchidna> I would imagine that now, with apturl-kde, that ubufox could be fixed right after alpha5 is released
[18:32] <EagleScreen> I think ubufox and apturl shouldn't be installed in Kubuntu, ubufox is a recomend, not a dependency
[18:34] <EagleScreen> then finally will Firefox be the default web browser?
[18:35] <ScottK> No.
[18:35] <EagleScreen> Konqueror?
[18:35] <ScottK> Yep.
[18:35] <ScottK> Karmic +1 we'll no doubt review it again.
[18:36] <EagleScreen> why have you kicked Arora?
[18:37] <JontheEchidna> It's not better enough than Konqeuror to justify taking away all the KDE integration from the default browser, plus there are other developing solutions that we want to let develop
[18:37] <JontheEchidna> then in the future we can re-evaluate and chose a long-term default so that we don't have to switch defaults every release
[18:38] <JontheEchidna> but for now we will stick with what works, and include it on the DVD for those that want it
[18:39] <JontheEchidna> *and include arora
[18:44] <EagleScreen> is apturl-kde for Konqueror or Firefox?
[20:00] <Nightrose> Riddell: https://bugs.kde.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=saved-searches has a search for amarok bugs targeted for fixing for 2.2 - none of them are really hard release blocker as far as i can tell from quickly checking but those with very high and high priority should be fixed if somehow possible
[20:09] <bmunger> guys, I reinstalled my kubuntu karmic installation and akregator still does the same thing on both machines
[20:09] <bmunger> nobody has touched my bug report except one person to discredit my report
[20:21] <yuriy> hmm wow zypper is pretty slow. don't get what SUSE people got all excited about
[20:28] <Nightrose> yuriy: if you are using a recent version the answer is: "it was much slower before"
[20:28] <Nightrose> ;-)
[20:34] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Debian copyright needs the license of the cmake stuff you added.
[20:35] <ScottK> I'm going to have to reject it again.
[20:36] <JontheEchidna> ah, damn. didn't think about that
[20:37] <agateau> seele: ping
[20:41] <seele> agateau: yo
[20:41] <seele> agateau: i talked to scott, he's ok with doing full ayatana notifications as long as kde is default
[20:41] <seele> so i think we should go with that
[20:42] <ScottK> seele: I think we do need a meeting to discuss Riddell's Kopete systray icon change.  That's generated some discussion.
[20:43] <seele> ScottK: wow another email thread i missed?
[20:43] <ScottK> No, mostly feedback here.
[20:43] <seele> ah
[20:43] <seele> what did he want to do?
[20:43] <ScottK> He made it go away.
[20:43] <agateau> seele: another thing about this:
[20:43] <ScottK> Some people didn't like that.
[20:44] <agateau> the plasma systray also contains progress info for file operations
[20:44] <seele> ScottK: confused. what do you mean he made it go away? that kopete runs as an application and has no system tray entry?
[20:44] <ScottK> Initially I blamed agateau's patches, but after a couple of repetitions, I've managed to remember it was Riddell
[20:44] <agateau> :D
[20:44] <ScottK> seele: Something like that.
[20:45] <seele> agateau: yeah.. which also has notifications tied to it in some way
[20:45]  * ScottK doesn't use it, so no idea of the details.
[20:45] <seele> Riddell: why do you want to do that?
[20:45] <agateau> seele: I think they are notification and job progress are different enough so that we can keep job progress as they are right now
[20:45] <ScottK> He doesn't like systray icons.
[20:46] <seele> and kopete has an option to not have a systemtray icon i think
[20:46] <yuriy> i don't use kopete, but my 2c: if we have the messaging indicator and/or notifications with actions that don't go away, kopete should not have a systray icon
[20:46] <seele> or at least minimize to systray
[20:46] <ScottK> yuriy: I think the jury is still out about it the indicator stuff should be enabled by default or not.
[20:46] <seele> yuriy: how do you access your buddy list if you don't have a message which brings up the kopete window?
[20:47] <agateau> seele: if you have message indicator, you can click the kopete entry in it
[20:47] <agateau> (that is, when I managed to fix the bug rgreening reported)
[20:47] <seele> is the message indicator on by default?
[20:48] <ScottK> seele: It is now "for testing"
[20:48] <seele> and what about people who dont want to use the message indicator?
[20:48] <ScottK> agateau: How do I get to the MI to do this if I have no pending messages?
[20:48] <yuriy> seele: with a taskbar entry just like any other window
[20:48] <agateau> ScottK: if an app supports mi,
[20:48] <seele> yuriy: i dont have task bar entries for any of my service apps
[20:48] <agateau> it appears in the mi menu as soon as it is started
[20:49] <seele> so skype, quassel, kopete, and kontact do not appear in my taskbar unless i have the window open
[20:49] <ScottK> agateau: I thought the mi menu only appeared if there was something pending?
[20:49] <agateau> ScottK: the mi is a plasmoid, so it's always there,
[20:49] <ScottK> Oh.
[20:49] <agateau> the menu never appears on its own, you have to click on the icon
[20:49] <agateau> but this menu contains entries for applications,
[20:50] <agateau> which themselves contains entries for their indicators
[20:51] <agateau> actually, my gnome colleagues are working on the v2 of the messaging api
[20:51] <seele> what is the benefit of aggregating all of the incoming messages in a single indicator again? because you want to remove the icons for applications?
[20:51] <agateau> the idea is to: reduce the clutter in the systray (hence Riddell changes I guess),
[20:51] <seele> i almost think the apple dock philosophy of "always on" is good, especially for messages because you always have application icons so you could use them to indicate new messages
[20:52] <agateau> and provide a way for applications to give the user more detailed info
[20:52] <ScottK> agateau: OK.  I understand why I don't see it then.  My Karmic system is plasma-netbook and it doesn't have the MI widget on the panel.
[20:52] <agateau> seele: that's a part of the v2 api,
[20:52] <agateau> making it possible for messaging apps to always be present in the menu,
[20:52] <seele> agateau: that's a completely different design, how could it be version 2
[20:52] <agateau> even when not started,
[20:53] <seele> one you have all your applications visually available and the other you dont
[20:53] <agateau> it's still in a menu which you have to open
[20:53] <agateau> in v1 it worked like this:
[20:53] <agateau> an mi-enabled app starts,
[20:54] <agateau> it appears as a first level entry in the mi menu,
[20:54] <agateau> and can add 2nd level entries to this menu (the indicators)
[20:54] <agateau> in v2, it's the same,
[20:54] <agateau> except the app entry is always there, even if the app is not started,
[20:54] <agateau> clicking the entry starts the app
[20:55] <seele> is it supposed to replace the application menu?
[20:55] <agateau> but current kde implementation is v1
[20:55] <agateau> seele: no,
[20:55] <agateau> it's only for messaging needs
[20:55] <Nightrose> how many of the people wanting to take away kopete's systray icon actually use kopete daily?
[20:55] <ScottK> When do we see v2 agateau?
[20:55] <seele> i'm not sure why you would go to the message indicator to open the application. or only if an app had a message you didnt see?
[20:55] <seele> what is the benefit or purpose of putting an application link in the message indicator?
[20:56] <agateau> ScottK: when ted is done with the glib version :)
[20:56] <agateau> seele: I guess it's about giving you the same way to reach the app, started or not
[20:56] <seele> but why would you want to do that?
[20:57] <agateau> s/the same/a permanent/
[20:57] <seele> why would i think of going to the message indicator to start an app?
[20:57] <seele> it indicates if there are messages, if there are none then i dont care about that app
[20:57] <seele> and if there are none, then i dont care about the indicator either
[20:57] <agateau> seele: (don't tell anyone, but sometimes it's hard to follow Canonical Design team thinkings)
[20:58]  * seele falls over
[20:58]  * agateau hopes it didn't hurt
[20:59] <agateau> kwwii: here?
[20:59] <agateau> kwwii: maybe you can share some insights about the v2 messaging api?
[20:59]  * agateau looks for the wiki page url
[21:02] <agateau> seele: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu
[21:02] <seele> agateau: is v2 in future work?
[21:03] <agateau> seele: I heard they want to get it in before ui freeze,
[21:03] <agateau> but I doubt this is going to happen
[21:04] <seele> huh.. it says that apps should always be in the menu but not why
[21:05] <agateau> seele: I seem to recall you know Ted Gould?
[21:05] <seele> agateau: i do
[21:06] <seele> i'm going to just write an email to the list, maybe someone can answer there
[21:06] <agateau> seele: you might want to bug him, he is the developer of libindicate and the gnome ui for messaging menu
[21:12] <agateau> seele: just to come back quickly to notifications, are you ok with progress info still being displayed stacked to the systray in the Ayatana version?
[21:13] <seele> agateau: yeah, it's only a minor issue
[21:13] <seele> if for some reason we would switch to ayatana permamently, ithat would have to be changed somehow
[21:13] <seele> but for karmic testing it's fine
[21:13] <agateau> ok thanks
[21:21] <a|wen> anything particular anyone want tested during a jaunty -> karmic update? ... while i'm at it
[21:23] <ScottK> a|wen: Perfect time since that's a test for the ISO tracker.
[21:24] <a|wen> oh, very true :) ... i'll report there
[21:31] <seele> hmm.. sent a mail to ayatana and it didnt show up yet
[21:32] <seele> ayatana@lists.launchpad.net, right?
[21:40] <NCommander> Riddell, ping?
[21:48] <agateau> seele: I received it
[21:48] <NCommander> Anyone around who can 1. review a change in bzr 2. upload that change?
[22:11] <kwwii> agateau: hey
[22:12] <agateau> kwwii: hey,
[22:12] <kwwii> well, if you are going to have an icon for new email, and chat, etc, you might as well aggregrate them
[22:13] <kwwii> the problem is the difference between a users idea of an application and whether they can be open or started, etc
[22:13] <agateau> I think seele main interrogation was why application entries were being turned into launchers
[22:14] <kwwii> it all goes back to the idea of representing presence in such and not thinking in terms of opening apps and managing which ones are active
[22:14] <kwwii> that was one of the bigger decisions, I think
[22:15] <kwwii> after we decided to have the menu there was a lot of dicussion about that
[22:15] <kwwii> if you have the menu and see an entry which is inactive, you might as well be able to click on it and start the app, etc
[22:16] <kwwii> I tried to follow the discussion but stayed out if it mainly
[22:17] <kwwii> honestly, I like the way kde has done things in the past and it has never been a problem for me
[22:17] <kwwii> our system-tray is so much more leaner than MS it works fine if you ask me
[22:17] <agateau> i am also not sure v2 api will be ready for karmic, what do you think?
[22:17] <kwwii> I bet that makes seele itch :p
[22:18] <kwwii> no idea about the current status of anything really...my long vacation in france kinda obscured my view of things :p
[22:18] <agateau> :)
[22:19] <agateau> read your blog, your vision of Cannes people made me laugh quite a bit
[22:19] <agateau> :)
[22:19] <kwwii> I had the time and the experience to really get a good view I think
[22:21] <seele> agateau: regarding mac_v's response, does he mean that it isn't just an indicator but more like a dashboard which handles more than missed messages?
[22:22]  * seele heads to aikido
[22:23]  * agateau reads
[22:24] <agateau> seele: yes, v2 can do a bit more:
[22:24] <agateau> it is expected that applications will be able to add what I would call action entries in addition to indicators,
[22:25] <agateau> actions like "check for new mails" or "open contact list"
[22:26] <agateau> this is from memory, I think the design team provided examples which felt more useful
[22:27] <kwwii> right, the point was to open an app with presence specific actions
[22:40] <agateau> sorry, network went out
[22:41] <agateau> anyway, it's time to go to sleep
[23:25] <spstarr> do we have the latest knetworkmanager in kubuntu? if not, i would strongly suggest bumping to it since WPA2 seems to work on it now
[23:26] <Riddell> spstarr: we have svn1013816 from 11 days ago
[23:26] <spstarr> Riddell: might be too old ?
[23:27] <spstarr> since I installed kubuntu a few days ago, the packaged version didnt work for me at all
[23:28] <spstarr>    /usr/local/kde4/bin/knetworkmanager --version
[23:28] <spstarr> Qt: 4.6.0
[23:28] <spstarr> KDE: 4.3.66 (KDE 4.3.66 (KDE 4.4 >= 20090828))
[23:28] <spstarr> KNetworkManager: v0.8
[23:28] <spstarr> regardless if im using trunk, the new knm works
[23:30] <Riddell> we can take a new snapshot after the alpha tomorrow, I need to fix up the translations for it anyway
[23:31] <spstarr> :)
[23:31] <Riddell> Nightrose: pointing me at saved-searches won't do any good unless you give me your account details (which would be a very bad idea)
[23:32] <spstarr> Riddell: I do note, Kubuntu makes my thinkpad work better, the brightness keys work, other things work even with my build of KDE on top, im glad im 'home' :)
[23:32] <Riddell> I'd like to see brightness keys work better with shiny notifications