[00:52] <ScottK> ace_suares1: Do you know it's not generally a good idea to move wiki pages around?
[00:53] <ScottK> It creates havoc for links and page indexes like Google.
[01:00] <ace_suares1> Hi ScottK
[01:07] <ace_suares1> http://www.google.com/search?q=ubuntu+meeting+logs&spell=1
[01:07] <ace_suares1> don't you think it's funny that google already indexed the pages I made an hour ago?
[01:09] <ScottK> ace_suares1: It's really a poor practice.  There are plenty of archived links to the old ones.
[01:10] <ScottK> I think if you don't understand this you really don't know enough to doing a wiki reorg.
[01:10] <ace_suares1> Okay, I see your point! Can you just show me those, so I can make some redirect pages (then the old links will still work and point to the new pages) ?
[01:11] <ScottK> ace_suares1: How many people's bookmarks are to the old pages for some reference?  There is no way to know all the links.
[01:11] <ScottK> ace_suares1: What benifit to you think this work you are doing will have?
[01:14] <ace_suares1> Yeah you are right. i think I need to send a mail to the list apologize for all the people who still have bookmarks to meetings from 2007!
[01:14] <ScottK> ace_suares1: If you want to start with sarcasm, we can go that way.
[01:14] <ace_suares1> ScottK: In generla, i think if you want to make a usefull wiki out of the mess it is, it's best to do a 'clean sweep'. I stated that at the meeting and it was (kind of )_ approved).
[01:15] <ace_suares1> Will you be at the next meeting?
[01:15] <ScottK> ace_suares1: Kind of I suspect means not.
[01:15] <ace_suares1> ScottK: I think it was not my intention to meet with sarcasm.
[01:15] <ScottK> What you are doing is a very poor practice that is discouraged in Ubuntu.
[01:16] <ace_suares1> Maybe we should introduce each other. I haven't seen you around lately. I ma pretty new to really contributing to Edubuntu.
[01:16] <ScottK> I don't have a particular interest in Edubuntu, but you are pretty well dominating the Ubuntu wiki change notices at the moment.
[01:16] <ace_suares1> ScottK: Oh. Well should I click 'trivial change' all the time then?
[01:16] <ScottK> ace_suares1: No.  You should not do it.
[01:16] <ace_suares1> Okay I won't.
[01:17] <ScottK> ace_suares1: I think you should also revert the changes you've made so far.
[01:18] <ace_suares1> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting/Logs is the page that contains *all* Edubuntu meeting logs, whether in raw IRC form as in Summarized text. The last meeting (2009-8-28) approves my editing of the wiki. There where no special guidelines. I am happy to revert any changes if needed!
[01:20] <ScottK> ace_suares1: The link to your cleanup plan is non-existant
[01:22] <ace_suares1> That's true, since it wasnt' very usefull after the meeting. It also was outside the structure.
[01:22] <ace_suares1> there's a very old plan though https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Wiki/Cleanup that I would like to delete soonish
[01:23] <ScottK> Well since the meeting log says that's what you were approved to do, it seems relevant.
[01:23] <ScottK> I would be suprised to find anyone thought random page moving was a good idea.  It's certainly frowned on in the broader Ubuntu community
[01:23] <ace_suares1> Sigh okay I will revert that deletion so you can see it from the agenda
[01:24] <ScottK> Part of the point of having a history is to have a history.
[01:24] <ace_suares1> Good to know. it's been very hard to get a good description of what and what not.
[01:24] <ScottK> Deleting stuff really isn't a good plan.
[01:25] <ScottK> A decent wiki reorg needs to be carefully thought out.  I've seen two wiki reorgs of Ubuntu development pages over the last several years and IMO neither one did more than confuse the picture.
[01:25] <ace_suares1> Okay I hear you. Don't delete anything that was ever written even if it is totally out of whack, and don't rename stuff becasue there might exsit links
[01:26] <ace_suares1> Okay well i think I have thougt it out quite well and I got the approval of the meeting. I am willing to listen to you and others, but where is the guidelines?
[01:26] <ScottK> Or if you do, (because you have a good plan and a new structure that is obviously and clearly better) then put redirects on the old pages so peole can follow them.
[01:26] <ace_suares1> About the redirects
[01:26] <ace_suares1> yes, i think redirect shoud be placed wherever appropriate.
[01:27] <ace_suares1> Important and crucial pages should be redirected if there is a new location
[01:27] <ace_suares1> but some pages just don't make sense
[01:27] <ScottK> That's anywhere a page used to exist.  Making links vanish from the web is a poor general design practice.
[01:27] <ace_suares1> for instance, the meeting logs
[01:27] <ace_suares1> ScottK: says who? No really, give me a good argument.
[01:27] <ScottK> So you are the final arbiter of what's important?
[01:28] <ace_suares1> At the moment, for the edubuntu, it seems yes.
[01:28] <ace_suares1> I tried sevaral times
[01:28] <ScottK> Starting with if a prior member of the Edubuntu Council, a core-dev and pretty much the tech lead for Edubuntu suggests it's a bad idea, that might be a clue.
[01:28] <ace_suares1> to involve the team and I aited for a month for a meeting that wasn't scheduled for a while and then finally got scheduled
[01:29] <ace_suares1> Hmm LaserJock ? He was not at the meeting and didnot comment on the mails about the meeting so I thought he was cool with it.
[01:29]  * LaserJock looks up and reads backlog
[01:29] <ScottK> Did the proposal come out while he was in the middle of moving across the country?
[01:30] <LaserJock> ace_suares1: I don't have a problem with you cleaning things up in general, surely
[01:30] <ace_suares1> maybe, I sent a summary to the list, and there was ameeting last friday, and I heard no objections, why?
[01:30] <LaserJock> but you're now on to a 60+page move, that's a rather significant chunk of our wiki
[01:31] <ace_suares1> yeah it is significant that's the whole point of the project
[01:31] <LaserJock> the only issue I have is with the Meeting pages, I don't see a benefit from moving them and it's a rather dramatic change
[01:31] <ScottK> This may now be the biggest wikipage move in the history of Ubuntu.  Certainly the biggest i know about.
[01:31] <ace_suares1> to weed out unruly pages and present a clear structure to the users and developers
[01:31] <ace_suares1> :-)
[01:31] <ScottK> No.  :(
[01:32] <ace_suares1> I still cna make redirects for all those pages, as I siad before I don't have a problem with the hour or so work involved
[01:32] <ace_suares1> It's just that I think that the meeting log of 2006-05-23 is now bette rpresented.
[01:32] <ace_suares1> and that noboday EVER will miss that page where it was.
[01:32] <ScottK> BTW, this wikisite namespace that you seem to be trying to care out for Edubuntu isn't used by any other *buntu project.
[01:32] <ace_suares1> It's not like instructions to connect thin clients, it's old old meetings!
[01:33] <ace_suares1> I didn't really like the wikisite namespace, but it helps move everything from old to new. It's just one token in the url and it is clear what is done and what needs to be done.
[01:34] <LaserJock> ace_suares1: the question is, how is the WikiSite namespace better than where it was?
[01:34] <LaserJock> if you're going to move something you want to have a clear and compelling reason
[01:34] <ace_suares1> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Tasks btw this page lists tasks that needed to be decided on by the edubuntu team, but never anyone acknowledged or commented on it
[01:34] <LaserJock> and for the meeting pages I just don't see any reason
[01:34] <ScottK> ace_suares1: That doesn't mean it's OK to do it.
[01:34] <ace_suares1> The clear and compelling reason for me is that everytihin not under wikisite is old and needs to be moved.
[01:35] <ace_suares1> ScottK: but the meeting said it was
[01:35] <LaserJock> but it seems backwards
[01:35] <ScottK> The meeting said it was OK to move every single Edubuntu wiki page?
[01:35] <ace_suares1> LaserJock: maybe it is backwards, but what is the main problem? The goal is to make the wiki again a usefull resource for developers and users alike
[01:35] <LaserJock> right
[01:36] <LaserJock> and adding length to the URL doesn't seem to achieve that
[01:36] <LaserJock> I gotta run
[01:36] <LaserJock> but I think some further discussion would be useful on the list
[01:36] <ace_suares1> These discussons really distract from the goal, and since there is no clear policy (not known to me anyway) why not go for it?
[01:36] <LaserJock> at least for bigger changes like this
[01:36] <ScottK> ace_suares1: My recommendation is you stop, go back, and rethink this.
[01:36] <ScottK> It's really a bad idea.
[01:36] <ace_suares1> Thanks for the advice.
[01:37] <ace_suares1> Can I ask you a question?
[01:37] <ace_suares1> Oh wow LaserJock leaves and ScottK leaves too.
[01:37] <ace_suares1> Hmm
[02:21] <nubae> ace_suares1, u seem to have a nack for sending people off channel ;-)
[02:21] <nubae> i guess u dont really mean it, but clearly I'm not the only one who is getting mixed signals with the way you say things
[02:37] <ace_suares1> how am I saying things? I am typing, and a non-native english speaker.
[02:40] <ace_suares1> nubae ?
[02:51] <Ahmuck-Sr> another uninvolved eduction individual wanting to exert control over the community?
[02:51] <Ahmuck-Sr> s/eduction/edubuntu
[03:01] <Ahmuck-Sr> what's happening, is two different things.
[03:01] <Ahmuck-Sr> edubuntu gets "resource help" from it's parent company
[03:02] <Ahmuck-Sr> it's parent company has a structure, approved edubuntu council members
[03:02] <Ahmuck-Sr> edubuntu states it's community driven and free to do as it chooses
[03:02] <Ahmuck-Sr> community driven projects are driven by community members, aka grass roots involvment
[03:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> community projects are driven from the bottom up rather than top down
[03:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> not seeing any complaints from community members about wiki re-structure, it appears to be all good
[03:04] <Ahmuck-Sr> so you have two masters, two factions, each wanting control
[03:04] <Ahmuck-Sr> top down vs bottom up
[03:04] <Ahmuck-Sr> bottom up is held hostage by the resource control of top down
[03:04] <Ahmuck-Sr> top down is held hostage by lack of bottom up volunteers
[03:04] <Ahmuck-Sr> until there is a resolution, your always going to have the conflict
[03:09] <nubae> well not really, this has to do with simple netiquette... redirects exist for a reason...
[03:11] <Ahmuck-Sr> agreed, but you don't see the struggle here
[03:11] <nubae> and to answer your question above ace_suares1 sarcasm for one, doesn't come across very well through irc and is generally offensive
[03:11] <Ahmuck-Sr> nubae even you left because of all the red tape
[03:12] <nubae> agreed there is red tape, though I didnt leave, just chose to concentrate my development efforts elsewhere
[03:12] <Ahmuck-Sr> Rome was offensive, but they conquered the world for a moment
[03:13] <Ahmuck-Sr> really don't want to drag log books out ...
[03:14] <nubae> I still do very little in edubuntu itself... though I still edit and have done for last couple releases edubuntu.org on release day
[03:15] <nubae> I haven't updated the apps pages for jaunty though... that much is true
[03:25] <ace_suares1> well I don't know
[03:26] <ace_suares1> It seems to go like this: We need people to help us!
[03:26] <ace_suares1> Someone: I want to help, what can I do?
[03:26] <ace_suares1> Some else: how do we know you can do what you can do ? Prove yourself!
[03:27] <ace_suares1> Someone: okay, give me somthing to do
[03:27] <ace_suares1> And so on
[03:27] <ace_suares1> And then someone: well you do what you think is best
[03:27] <ace_suares1> And then someone else: what you just did is  bad
[03:27] <ace_suares1> and nobody explains really why
[03:27] <ace_suares1> I mean, 'URL's become longer'.
[03:28] <ace_suares1> 'Other projects have a different structure'
[03:28] <ace_suares1> 'It's generally a bad idea'
[03:28] <nubae> that was diplomatic for, u screwed up the links
[03:28] <ace_suares1> nubae what links ?
[03:29] <nubae> links that may have existed to the pages u deleted
[03:29] <nubae> so make the redirects
[03:29] <ace_suares1> you say sarcasm is bad, but what about accusation? Is that not bad?
[03:29] <nubae> and everyone will be happy
[03:29] <nubae> that would be the correct way to do things
[03:29] <nubae> hey I'm just repeating what u said, and telling u waht someone else meant
[03:30] <ace_suares1> the correct way? is that the correct way to clean up a wiki? What is the correct way to clean up a wiki?
[03:30] <nubae> Im not acussing u of anything
[03:30] <ace_suares1> nubae but the question remains: you screwed up the links. Thats is an accusation, from whoever it comes, right?
[03:30] <nubae> well, I'll repeat what scottk said above, if u dont know that, u probably shouldnt be doing it
[03:31] <nubae> well, thats a fact, not an accusation
[03:31] <ace_suares1> okay so you arfe saying that I probably don't know that I am screwing up the links and therefor should not screw up links?
[03:31] <nubae> anyway... I'm off... u should see now, that since I am the 3rd person saying the same thing, perhaps there might be something to what we are saying
[03:31] <ace_suares1> nubaeit's only a fact if there are links that are srewed up, right?
[03:32] <ace_suares1> well i have 100 people saying that windows is the best oS, should i believe them too? Maybe so!
[03:32] <nubae> there u go with the sarcasm again...
[03:32] <nubae> u are not gonna win people over here with that attitude believe u me
[03:33] <ace_suares1> no saracasm at all, you are accusing me of sarcasm though! It's just a question!
[03:33]  * nubae sighs
[03:33] <ace_suares1> My goal is not to win people over though, it's cleaing up the wiki
[03:34] <ace_suares1> why are you sighing? is that a demaening of my statements ?
[03:34] <ace_suares1> are you saying with 'sighs' : this guy is hopeless., why am I wasting my time?
[19:19] <planxa> hola