[00:48] <chrisccoulson> asac - i vaguely remember someone doing some work on libnotify a while back to make it cache server capabilities, and i was thinking it was you who was working on it (or perhaps i just dreamt that?)
[00:48] <chrisccoulson> was it you who was working on that?
[00:48] <asac> chrisccoulson: i wanted to work on that at somepoint ... yes.
[00:48] <asac> or at least get it done somewhat
[00:48] <chrisccoulson> did anything ever happen with it?
[00:49] <chrisccoulson> the only reason i ask is because our gnome-settings-daemon patch queries the capabilities every time you press the volume key
[00:49] <chrisccoulson> and i'm thinking that should be cached really ;)
[00:51] <asac> you can blindly cache it ... but it needs to be reupdated if NameOwnerChanged ... and no. afaik nothing happened yet
[00:51] <chrisccoulson> asac - thanks. yeah, i was thinking about caching it in g-s-d and listening for NameOwnerChanged
[00:52] <chrisccoulson> it would be nicer in libnotify though:)
[00:52] <asac> chrisccoulson: well. if you do it, just do it in libnotify ;)
[00:52] <asac> feels like code should be similar
[00:53] <chrisccoulson> asac - i could do. isn't it too late to be adding to the API of common libraries now though?
[00:53] <asac> chrisccoulson: it wont change any api
[00:53] <asac> just the implementation would be smarter
[00:53] <asac> at lesat thats my idea
[00:53] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that's true actually
[00:53] <chrisccoulson> i might take a look at that then
[00:54] <asac> i think its ok if the code is robust
[00:54] <asac> which when done properly should be the case
[00:54] <awalton> chrisccoulson, libnotify over at github already has that code in place
[00:54] <awalton> just haven't released it yet
[00:54] <chrisccoulson> awalton - thanks. any idea of when it will be released?
[00:55] <awalton> chrisccoulson, I could do it tomorrow if I could get the fd.o admins to play ball
[00:55] <asac> hehe
[00:55] <chrisccoulson> awalton - thanks, that would rock:)
[00:55] <awalton> there are some last minute things that me and agateau(sp?) have to work out, but otherwise it's pretty solid
[01:37] <johanbr> TheMuso, are you aware of https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=521276, which also affects current Karmic ?
[01:37] <crimsun> (well, i'm aware of that one. dunno if luke is.)
[01:37] <johanbr> alright :)
[01:38] <johanbr> the telepathy guys thought the problem was in the gstreamer pulse element
[01:39] <TheMuso> No, I am not aware of that, and I don't really track gstreamer bugs. I do stuff further down the stack.
[01:39] <johanbr> alright
[01:40] <crimsun> Karmic's alsa-utils is about to get a major init overhaul
[01:41] <crimsun> i.e., the initscript's calling start() will use `alsactl init' instead of carrying all those crazy bits
[01:42] <crimsun> to accomplish that, we'll have an RFC where the responders should include `lspci -nv|grep -A1 040[13]' output and their preferred init levels
[01:42] <crimsun> i'm still evaluating how to handle the really obnoxious codecs (i'm looking at you, sigmatel) on the Creative families that have opposing init values
[01:43] <johanbr> anyway, I'm glad to see the bug is on your radar... was just concerned it might've slipped through the cracks
[01:44] <crimsun> johanbr: it's really toward the outer circumference of my radar, so if you feel like taking it on, please feel free
[01:45] <johanbr> unfortunately I don't think I have the gstreamer expertise needed for that
[01:54] <TheMuso> crimsun: Um, wouldn't that need an FFE?
[01:56] <crimsun> TheMuso: no, we already have the `alsactl init' infrastructure
[01:56] <crimsun> TheMuso: it's just very poorly populated
[01:57] <crimsun> TheMuso: and considering Debian & Ubuntu have been carrying just about all the mixer element tweaks in alsa-utils:debian/init for as long as i remember...
[01:58] <crimsun> TheMuso: i don't expect to finish it in time for Karmic; it's a matter of migrating all the cruft from muting/unmuting/sanitizing in the initscript over to alsactl
[02:00] <TheMuso> crimsun: Right.
[03:52] <superm1> pitti, ping.  about this stuff with no way to choose the login session for gdm, could we discuss some ideas?  the current (hacky) things that are being done for mythbuntu and xubuntu don't work too well because they cause you to not be able to login to gnome anymore.  could we maybe get an /etc/alternatives for the default login session, or perhaps a gconf key to set it?
[07:31] <pitti> Good morning
[07:32] <pitti> robert_ancell: ah, seems you beat me to updating g-p-m, I just wanted to do it :)
[07:32] <pitti> will sponsor
[07:33] <pitti> superm1: would it work if we make gdm always prefer the "default.desktop" session if it exists?
[07:33] <robert_ancell> pitti, :) I was going to ask you about that too, it now has an option to build without hal, should we be using that?
[07:34] <pitti> robert_ancell: X.org still needs it, so it won't make hal go away in karmic
[07:34] <pitti> robert_ancell: and it helps to not break brightness changing on many hardware platforms, so let's keep it for now
[07:36] <pitti> hah, and dholbach already sponsored it
[08:12] <didrocks> hey pitti, hi robert_ancell
[08:12] <robert_ancell> hey didrocks
[08:19] <pitti> hey didrocks, bonjour
[08:25] <seb128> good morning there
[08:26] <didrocks> hey seb128 :)
[08:26] <seb128> hello didrocks
[08:27] <didrocks> seb128: as you probably saw, I updated mutter this week-end and put some work on clutter, but a dependency is still not built (all is explained in bug #425339)
[08:28] <seb128> didrocks, I noticed thanks
[08:28] <didrocks> seb128: what is really strange is that I've been able to send gir-repository to soyuz and it has then been propagated to main in the meanwhile
[08:29] <didrocks> weird also that all previous rdepends on clutter package wasn't put in main during the move. Do we have to write some MIR?
[08:30] <seb128> re
[08:31] <seb128> didrocks, you can try to ping StevenK about this one
[08:31] <seb128> didrocks, or otherwise write the mir if there is not one yet
[08:31] <didrocks> seb128: ok, I'll do it. Do you need other deps for new gnome-shell?
[08:32] <seb128> didrocks, no, it has been uploaded yesterday night
[08:32] <didrocks> (and you see, it was good to wait as the last version was issued on Friday ;))
[08:33] <seb128> hehe
[08:33] <seb128> you can wait for ever using this logic
[08:34] <didrocks> of course, just for joking ^^
[08:36] <seb128> ;-)
[08:36] <seb128> let's get some coffee, be back in a bit
[08:37] <pitti> hey seb128
[08:38] <pitti> seb128: FYI, theh current "412 expectation failed" retracer failure was because it tried to dupe a bug which already had a duplicate
[08:44] <didrocks> pitti: seb128 is so quick at being disconnected :)
[08:45] <seb128> re
[08:45] <seb128> sorry got some internet issues this morning, seems to be back now
[08:45] <seb128> hey pitti
[08:46] <didrocks> seb128: well, you say that, but we all know that's due by too much coffee in your keyboard ;)
[08:49] <pitti> seb128: FYI, the current "412 expectation failed" retracer failure was because it tried to dupe a bug which already had a duplicate
[08:49] <pitti> seb128: I re-dup'ed the bug manually now and restarted them
[08:50] <pitti> seb128: if you encounter such a failure again, please check the bug; I think this exception is not just random
[08:50]  * pitti -> breakfast
[08:52] <seb128> pitti, I though you already fixed the duplicate from duplicate issue to follow to the next bug?
[08:52] <seb128> pitti, enjoy!
[08:52]  * seb128 just back from breakfast with coffee
[08:53] <seb128> didrocks, the keyboard works late it can also get some coffee!
[08:53] <seb128> hey chrisccoulson
[08:53] <chrisccoulson> good morning seb128!
[08:55] <didrocks> seb128: hehe
[08:55] <didrocks> hey chrisccoulson
[08:57] <chrisccoulson> hey didrocks
[09:14] <seb128> is huats hidding? ;-)
[09:20] <pitti> seb128: right, but just into the other direction
[09:20] <pitti> seb128: if you try to mark bug a as dupe of bug b, but bug b is a duplicate of c
[09:20] <pitti> then a gets marked as dupe of c
[09:20] <pitti> but here, but a is already a duplicate of bug d
[09:21] <seb128> ah ok
[09:21] <seb128> gotcha
[09:21] <seb128> somebody did that manually I guess
[09:21] <pitti> yes, I suppose
[09:22] <seb128> pitti, btw do you think you will have time today to look at the gnome-games sponsoring request? you commented on it a week ago so I let it to you but I can add it to my list if you want
[09:23] <seb128> pitti, btw robert_ancell did the gpm update so you can drop that from your todolist
[09:24] <pitti> seb128: already saw this morning
[09:24] <pitti> seb128: ah, will do that
[09:24] <seb128> thanks
[09:24] <pitti> seb128: robert_ancell and I talked about the package renaming yesterday, I think it should be done now
[09:25] <robert_ancell> seb128, pitti, I'm having trouble with dh_installma on gnome-games
[09:25] <seb128> pitti, he added a question for you in the bug
[09:25] <seb128> robert_ancell, what sort of trouble?
[09:26] <robert_ancell> seb128, it doesn't want to automatically install the debian/game.6 page for the 'game' package
[09:26] <robert_ancell> i.e. I build and the man pages are not present in the .debs
[09:27] <pitti> robert_ancell: in a built tree, run "DH_VERBOSE=1 dh_installman -a" and see what it does?
[09:28] <seb128> I'm not sure if it's supposed to do that automatically
[09:28] <pitti> robert_ancell: id dyou add debian/game.6 to debian/gamepkg.manpages ?
[09:28] <seb128> you need .manpages usually
[09:28] <pitti> s/id dyou/did you/, d'oh
[09:28] <pitti> seb128: it doesn't
[09:28] <robert_ancell> ah ok
[09:29] <seb128> are you going to rename the games?
[09:30] <robert_ancell> seb128, yup, done that
[09:30] <seb128> why? I'm just curious
[09:30] <seb128> I read the discussion in the bug and I've no strong opinion either way but that seems extra divergence for not strong reason
[09:33] <robert_ancell> seb128, oh do you mean in ubuntu or debian?
[09:33] <robert_ancell> s/debian/gnome
[09:33] <seb128> ubuntu
[09:34] <robert_ancell> ask pitti :)
[09:34] <seb128> "To avoid name space cluttering and confusion, would you mind to rename aisleriot, blackjack, freecell, and mahjong to gnome-games-*, or g*, or gnome-*?"
[09:34] <seb128> I'm not sure that makes sense
[09:34] <pitti> seb128: it's divergence either way
[09:34] <pitti> seb128: the split isn't in debian
[09:34] <seb128> do you speak about binaries packages or binaries on disk?
[09:34] <pitti> and Debian has challenged such generic package names in the past as well
[09:34] <pitti> seb128: just the package names, not the executables
[09:35] <seb128> ok, that makes sense
[09:35] <robert_ancell> seb128, i've fixed the manpages and pushed but not recompiled.  Feel free to release if it looks good
[09:36] <robert_ancell> gtg, see you guys tomorrow
[09:36] <seb128> pitti, ^
[09:36] <pitti> robert_ancell: sleep well
[09:36] <seb128> robert_ancell, have fun, see you
[09:37] <pitti> seb128: bug 425185, wasn't that already uploaded?
[09:37] <pitti> ah, it didn't close the bug
[09:37] <seb128> yes, I didn't check that the bug was changelog closed
[09:37]  * pitti closes
[09:37] <seb128> it didn't apparently
[09:37] <seb128> sorry about that
[09:41]  * pitti looks for the gnome-games sponsoring bug, it's not on the list
[09:42] <seb128> pitti, bug #417900
[09:42] <pitti> ah, thanks
[09:42] <seb128> pitti, that's because robert_ancell didn't reopen it after your question
[09:42] <seb128> ups
[09:43] <pitti> thanks
[09:43] <pitti> bzr looks good, I'll test-build
[10:14] <gnomefreak> is anyone else seeing that the upper gnome-panel isnt loading fully on startup? it wont load time/date sound n-m and indicator applet and weather applets everything in upper right.
[10:14] <mpt> mvo, hi, how's the Store
[10:14] <mpt> ?
[10:15] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - is there anything in ~/.xession-errors?
[10:15] <mvo> mpt: not much this morning, I got dragged into a zlib header problem that causes other stuff to break
[10:15] <mpt> fun
[10:15] <mvo> mpt: how is the new version (the one I uploaded yesterday)?
[10:15] <mpt> mvo, I see rugby471 managed to fix a few more bugs :-)
[10:15] <mvo> mpt: weh, execlent
[10:15] <mvo> time to merge :)
[10:16] <mpt> mvo, I haven't tried the new package, I was just reporting bugs on trunk yesterday afternoon, and I don't have Internet at home a.t.m.
[10:16] <mvo> mpt: ok
[10:16] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: only output is in .xsession-errors.old
[10:17] <mpt> mvo, I'll report more bugs this morning, then work on the help + CSS this afternoon.
[10:17] <seb128> mvo, oh, what does the zlib thing is breaking?
[10:17] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: for .xsession-errors i get cat: /home/gnomefreak/.xession-errors: No such file or directory
[10:18] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - hmmm, that's wierd. could you open a failsafe xterm from GDM and start gnome-session manually? anything which would normally go to xsession-errors will end up in your xterm then
[10:18] <pitti> seb128: sorry, can't upload gnome-games, it's way too broken; but I'll let Robert fix it for the sake of learning pacakging
[10:18] <mvo> mpt: cool
[10:19] <seb128> gnomefreak, typo in the name
[10:19] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: killall gnome-panel will load everything except the weather applets but lets see if starting it will help
[10:19] <mvo> mpt: my goal for today is to get the proper sepeartion for available/installed done
[10:19] <seb128> pitti, what is broken? upstream or packaging?
[10:19] <mvo> seb128: sometime off64_t is not defined and that causes ftbfs (due to a change I introduced)
[10:19] <mpt> mvo, ok, that will basically fix bug 425887
[10:19] <pitti> seb128: packaging; I updated the bug
[10:19] <gnomefreak> seb128: thanks for the catch
[10:19] <mvo> mpt: yeah, should b
[10:19] <mvo> e
[10:20] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: i have output in .xsession-errors do you want me to pastebin it?
[10:20] <seb128> mvo, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/31408763/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.gtk%2B2.0_2.17.11-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz is yours?
[10:20] <mvo> seb128: yes
[10:21] <seb128> mvo, oh ok, I should stop spending time on that then and wait for you, thanks!
[10:21] <mvo> seb128: uh, sorry
[10:21] <seb128> pitti, thanks, there is no real hurry but the sponsoring request was staled for a week at least it's moving again now
[10:21] <seb128> mvo, that's ok, I just didn't understand what was going on since gtk didn't really change
[10:22] <mpt> mvo, when you're done, be sure to check each of the three test cases in <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore#Main%20window>. :-)
[10:23] <mpt> or in <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore#Navigation%20pane>, more precisely
[10:24] <mvo> merged
[10:25]  * mpt finishes triaging boogs
[10:31] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - hi, sorry, i went to get some coffee
[10:31] <chrisccoulson> yeah, you can pastebin it
[10:32] <seb128> pitti, you didn't update the bug?
[10:32] <pitti> seb128: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-games/+bug/376744/comments/7
[10:32] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: np. one sec ill have it for you
[10:32] <seb128> pitti, I was looking at bug #417900
[10:32] <seb128> pitti, thanks ;-)
[10:32] <pitti> ah
[10:33] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: http://paste.ubuntu.com/267122/
[10:35] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - that doesn't really show any errors. If you leave it long enough, do the applets finish loading eventually (after a couple of minutes or so)? I'm just wondering if something blocks on a dbus call somewhere
[10:35] <seb128> it's amazing the number of people running nautilus under sudo
[10:35] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: they never load i have to drop to TTY# and killall *
[10:35] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i noticed that too
[10:36] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: i let it stand for ~5 minutes (enough for a smoke) and they never loaded
[10:36] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - and the panel appears to be frozen too?
[10:37] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - it seems users need a bit of educating ;)
[10:37] <seb128> right
[10:37] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: yes nothing will work unless all the other stuff is loaded
[10:37] <gnomefreak> with the exceptionof weather applets
[10:38] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - could you try again, but this time run "gnome-session --debug 2>&1 | tee gnome-session-debug.log", as the debug output from gnome-session may give a clue where it goes wrong
[10:39] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson:  ok
[10:40] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: i get a dialog saying Could not acquire name on session bus but i do have other output that i will post in a minute or so.
[10:41] <chrisccoulson> that could be due to other processes remaining from a previous failed session, which haven't exited properly
[10:42] <chrisccoulson> it might be best to do it from a fresh boot
[10:42] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: i will just would like to see if this ever ends
[10:44] <gnomefreak> hm it is loading trash applets and not stopping. i think i was try on fresh boot
[10:53] <mpt> mvo, where should I look (e.g. what should I bzr branch) if I want to add more data to the application keywords/synonyms/misspellings file?
[10:56] <huats> morning everyone
[10:56] <seb128> lut huats
[10:56] <seb128> ca va ?
[10:56] <mvo> mpt: that is lp:%7Eubuntu-core-dev/app-install-data-ubuntu/ubuntu/ - but its big and auto-generated
[10:56] <huats> hey seb128
[10:56] <mvo> mpt: so if you fix typos there, we need to forward them to the
[10:56] <huats> yep I am fine
[10:56] <huats> thanks !
[10:56] <huats> you ?
[10:56] <mvo> mpt: to the app
[10:57] <mpt> mvo, so when I gave you that initial sample of keywords, you added them to packages for individual applications?
[10:58] <mvo> mpt: there is a post-processing step for the keyword, i.e. we enrich the data with keyword, popcon data and package-name and archive-section
[10:58] <mvo> mpt: but there is no "fix tpyos" feature yet in that code (it could be added, but its more efficient to fix it in the app itself)
[10:59] <mpt> mvo, so what I meant was, where should I look if I want to add more keywords?
[10:59] <mvo> mpt: oh, sorry - give me a sec
[11:00] <mvo> mpt: its in the same branch, the file is "keywords.def"
[11:01] <mvo> mpt: in the toplevel dir
[11:01] <mvo> mpt: is contains of lines like "pidgin: pigeon;gaim;chat;windows;live;aim"
[11:01] <mpt> thanks mvo
[11:02] <mvo> np
[11:02] <mvo> seb128: new zlib uploaded, I will re-trigger a gtk build and if its all good ask for a mass give-back
[11:04] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: i was unable to run gnome-session --debug 2>&1 | tee gnome-session-debug.log from tty# unless i first killall gnome-panel. im running it now and filed bug 426185 with both .xsession files attached so far
[11:04] <chrisccoulson> gnomefreak - thanis
[11:05] <gnomefreak> chrisccoulson: np
[11:06] <seb128> mvo, the issue was on a ppa there so no need to retry gtk
[11:06] <seb128> I will try locally
[11:06] <mvo> ok
[11:06] <mvo> thanks
[11:06] <mvo> let me know (after lunch :)
[11:09] <chrisccoulson1> wow, my 3G connection is being really unreliable today!
[11:37] <seb128> is anybody interested by doing a libgdata mir it's required for totem youtube
[11:38] <pitti> seb128: didn't we already have something similar in jaunty or intrepid?
[11:38] <pitti> I remember a MIR about some google library
[12:04] <seb128> pitti, it was python-gdata
[12:04] <pitti> ah, and that doesn't use libgdata, but has its own implementation, apparently
[12:04] <pitti> do we still need python-gdata then?
[12:05] <seb128> no we don't
[12:05] <seb128> we need libgdata now
[12:06] <seb128> they use that isn't of the python one now
[12:14] <mvo> geh, software-store got a gazillion of new bugs over night
[12:15] <mvo> looks like mpt was busy
[12:16] <seb128> lol
[12:36] <seb128> so nobody interested to write the libgdata mir? ;-)
[12:37] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i could probably do it, but i know absolutely nothing about libgdata ;)
[12:38] <seb128> no need to know anything, it's just paper work, ie file the template
[12:38] <chrisccoulson> when did apport start catching assertion messages?
[12:38] <chrisccoulson> i never knew it could do that!
[12:38] <seb128> the reason it should be in main is that totem wants it for youtube
[12:38] <seb128> chrisccoulson, in karmic I think
[12:39] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i could probably have a look at that when i get some time, if noone else has already started to look at it
[12:39] <chrisccoulson> possibly after i finish work
[12:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-karmic-apport-abort
[12:39] <chrisccoulson> although, a MIR might be something i could actually do at work, if i can find a quiet room where noone will notice ;)
[12:40] <chrisccoulson> cool! pitti rocks:)
[12:44] <pitti> :)
[12:52] <mac_v>  anyone know the command for only removing the execute bits for files inside a folder *and* subfolders , without removing the directory bit from the subfolders?
[12:53] <chrisccoulson> mac_v - you want "-X"
[12:53] <chrisccoulson> (capital X)
[12:53]  * mac_v tires
[12:59] <chrisccoulson> pitti - you're a member of ubuntu-release arent you?
[12:59] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yes
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> would you mind taking a look at the FFe for transmission?
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> (i offer bribes) ;)
[13:00] <pitti> chrisccoulson: can you please subscribe ubuntu-release to it?
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> pitti - already subscribed
[13:00] <pitti> ok, which bug# ? :-)
[13:00] <chrisccoulson> pitti - bug 418367
[13:09] <pitti> chrisccoulson: done
[13:12] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks:)
[13:57] <davmor2> pitti: with guest session shouldn't you be able to log straight back into the session that sporned it?  ie log into tester->guest->tester.  All I'm seeing in guest session is new session.
[14:04] <dobey> james_w: any chance we could get python-oauth in hardy-backports and jaunty-backports today?
[14:04] <james_w> what?
[14:04] <james_w> now you want to use python-oauth?
[14:04] <dobey> bug #397197 and bug #397431
[14:05] <dobey> no, but it's already there, and time is rather short at this point
[14:06] <james_w> and I'm not on the backports team so I can't help with that, sorry
[14:06] <dobey> oh, ok
[14:07] <james_w> got to run for lunch, let's talk about this when we get back
[14:07] <dobey> ok
[14:19] <didrocks> hey rickspencer3
[14:19] <seb128> hello rickspencer3
[14:20] <rickspencer3> hi didrocks and seb128
[14:20] <rickspencer3> I hope everyone is well
[14:22] <seb128> I'm fine thanks
[14:22] <rodrigo_> tomboy's bzr branch doesn't contain the latest changes
[14:22] <rodrigo_> submitted to karmic
[14:23] <seb128> rodrigo_, I've pinged ogra about that
[14:23] <rodrigo_> ah ok, so should I wait to do another submission, or just go the apt-get source route?
[14:23] <mvo> spanking :P
[14:24] <seb128> rodrigo_, as you want
[14:24] <mvo> you could as well integrate the diff into bzr
[14:24] <rodrigo_> mvo: oh, yeah, but where is it?
[14:25] <seb128> ogra is doing it now
[14:25] <rodrigo_> ah cool, I'll wait then
[14:26] <seb128> shrug, he will not do it before tonight, he's in meeting
[14:27] <seb128> and he says he's doing it now, let's wait
[14:27] <rodrigo_> ok
[14:27] <mvo> and for a moment I thought I forgot to push :)
[14:28] <mvo> my tomboy changes
[14:28] <seb128> mvo, be careful we know where to find you ;-)
[14:28] <mvo> exactly!
[14:29]  * mvo is always afraid of the wrath of seb128 :P
[14:29] <seb128> mvo, and for every screwing up you need to do a sponsoring upload
[14:29] <seb128> lol
[14:29] <seb128> rodrigo_, otherwise that is good to know, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+changelog
[14:29] <mvo> ohh, this is why dholbach is the sponsoring king ;)
[14:29] <seb128> rodrigo_, there is the diff for each upload there
[14:29] <seb128> mvo, ahah
[14:30] <rodrigo_> seb128: page not found
[14:30] <seb128> rodrigo_, https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+changelog
[14:30] <seb128> you don't use edge?
[14:30] <pitti> davmor2: yes, that's a missing feature in indicator-session, and being worked on
[14:30] <seb128> rodrigo_, they should be on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy on non edge
[14:30] <rodrigo_> yes, I do, but just clicked on the url you pasted :D
[14:31] <davmor2> pitti: ah okay cool as long as it's known :)
[14:31] <seb128> rodrigo_, the url works here, weird
[14:32] <rodrigo_> seb128: ok, edge works, so let me know if ogra doesn't do it soon, and I'll do it
[14:36] <seb128> rodrigo_, bzr updated
[14:36] <rodrigo_> cool, thanks
[14:48] <mpt> mvo, how's it going?
[15:05] <c_korn> tedg: hello. did someone have time to review my code for indicator-session ?
[15:20] <superm1> pitti, i think that would be a great solution
[15:20] <chrisccoulson1> mpt - re bug 426294 - that alert will be disappearing in a metacity patch i'm preparing later
[15:20] <superm1> (default.desktop)
[15:25] <pitti> superm1: the only gotcha I see is that several $derivative-default-settings packages would conflict on it
[15:25] <pitti> superm1: so if you have a better idea..
[15:26] <superm1> pitti, so that's why maybe an /etc/alternatives for the default.desktop would be a good solution then?
[15:26] <superm1> and have gnome register itself as one of them
[15:26] <pitti> superm1: ah, good idea
[15:27] <seb128> noooooo
[15:27] <seb128> no alternative
[15:27] <pitti> ?
[15:27] <seb128> I just hate those
[15:27] <pitti> seb128: we wouldn't need it for gnome; if no default.desktop is present, it'd just behave like now
[15:27] <seb128> they are complicated to handle and always lead to weird bugs
[15:28] <seb128> what issue are we trying to address?
[15:28] <pitti> superm1: which package would ship default.session for mythbuntu?
[15:29] <superm1> pitti, probably mythbuntu-default-settings
[15:29] <superm1> and likely xubuntu-default-settings for xubuntu
[15:29] <pitti> would it make sense to be able to install both at the same time?
[15:29] <superm1> generally no
[15:29] <pitti> if not, we could just have them Provides:/Conflicts: ubuntu-derivative-default-settings or so
[15:29] <pitti> and don't need the alternatives
[15:30] <superm1> seb128, we need a way to set the default session for gdm
[15:30] <superm1> otherwise it's unpredictable what session you get logged into with auto login
[15:30] <seb128> shouldn't that be a config key rather?
[15:31] <superm1> i'm indifferent to a gconf key or a file or an alternatives, but somehow it's gotta be configurable
[15:32] <seb128> right, let me some time to think about that
[15:32] <seb128> I just dislike alternatives, they are distro specific changes, complicated and lead to weird bugs
[15:34] <pitti> seb128: *nod*
[15:34] <pitti> seb128: I'm fine with *-default-settings mutually excluding each other, so they could just all ship a default.session
[15:34] <seb128> I'm fine with that too
[15:36] <pitti> superm1: ^ works for you?
[15:37] <pitti> /usr/share/xsessions/default.desktop, I mean
[15:37] <superm1> pitti, i'm fine with that
[15:37] <superm1> might want to ask cody though too
[15:37] <pitti> superm1: I'm in a meeting; could you please follow up to the bug on that and assign the gdm task to me? I'll add the default.desktop support (should be trivial)
[15:37] <pitti> perhaps this can also get us around gdm-2.20
[15:37] <superm1> Yes that's what i'm hoping
[15:38] <superm1> sure
[15:39] <james_w> dobey: hey, I've drafted mail to the release team about this, anyone else you would like me to send it to?
[15:40] <pitti> superm1: could you quickly hop into #ubuntu-meeting?
[15:40] <superm1> sure
[15:40] <mpt> chrisccoulson, yay I guess
[15:40] <pitti> thanks
[15:47] <dobey> james_w: uhm, am I cc:ed?
[15:47] <james_w> mais oui
[15:48] <pitti> rickspencer3: good morning
[15:49] <rickspencer3> good morning pitti
[15:49] <dobey> james_w: not sure who else... maybe statik?
[15:49] <james_w> ok
[15:50] <james_w> sent
[15:52] <dobey> cool
[15:52]  * dobey looks forward to reading
[15:52] <lool> seb128: You're going to the AB call?
[15:52] <seb128> lool, no, rickspencer3 is representing canonical usually
[15:52] <seb128> what is the topic for this one?
[15:52] <lool> rickspencer3: I have a recurring conflict and probably wont join
[15:52] <seb128> do you want me to go there?
[15:53] <rickspencer3> ug, is it today?
[15:53] <lool> seb128: gnome asia
[15:53]  * rickspencer3 didn't get ab update
[15:53] <lool> rickspencer3: yes in 7 mn
[15:53] <lool> seb128: Feel free
[15:53] <lool> rickspencer3: The invite never work for me  :-(
[15:53] <rickspencer3> oops
[15:53] <rickspencer3> I did get it :)
[15:54] <rickspencer3> I'll go
[15:55] <rickspencer3> pitti, seb128 any topics specific for team meeting today, please PM me
[15:55] <rickspencer3> otherwise, we'll just review Karmic targeted bugs and work items
[15:55] <rickspencer3> rest of desktop team, same deal ^^
[15:56] <pitti> rickspencer3: "empathy vs. pidgin" please (CC: seb128)
[15:57]  * rickspencer3 was hoping to avoid that topic ;)
[15:57] <seb128> hehe
[15:57] <dobey> empathy is a bit crashy for me :)
[16:00] <seb128> asac, do you plan to update gnome-bluetooth?
[16:01] <seb128> asac, and did you open a bug about the symbol conflict we discussed during the distro sprint?
[16:20] <asac> seb128: yes and no. i wanted to discuss that online with him because it needs refactoring of the build system. the current solution works, just that its not nice and that it wastes like 200k on CD or something
[16:33] <seb128> huats, Ampelbein, Laney: want to do some GNOME updates? ;-)
[16:33] <Laney> always
[16:34] <huats> seb128: sure
[16:34] <huats> (and seb128 I know I must finish the pessulus one)
[16:34] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/bug-buddy/2.27/bug-buddy-2.27.92.tar.gz
[16:34] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-backgrounds/2.27/gnome-backgrounds-2.27.91.tar.gz
[16:34] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/deskbar-applet/2.27/deskbar-applet-2.27.92.tar.gz
[16:35] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-themes/2.27/gnome-themes-2.27.92.tar.gz
[16:35] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-applets/2.27/gnome-applets-2.27.92.tar.gz
[16:35] <seb128> http://download.gnome.org/sources/anjuta/2.27/anjuta-2.27.92.0.tar.gz
[16:35] <seb128> those are free to pick I think
[16:35] <huats> seb128: I am already on anjuta
[16:35] <seb128> just open a workflow bug and announce on the chan if you start working on any of those
[16:36] <seb128> huats, ok good, I think you have enough
[16:36] <Laney> i dont see these on versions.html
[16:36] <huats> (waitig for didrocks to put something on the bzr...)
[16:36] <seb128> Laney, let me refresh the versions page now, the autoupdate is broken due to python-apt being buggy in the machine where the cron job is
[16:36] <Laney> kk
[16:36] <seb128> I've to do manual updates :-(
[16:38] <rickspencer3> seb128, pitti ... I added a pidgin vs. empathy, pros vs. con table to the team meeting wiki:
[16:38] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-09-08
[16:38] <rickspencer3> everyone should feel free to add to the table before the meeting
[16:39] <seb128> ok
[16:41] <pitti> ah, awe is currently editing
[16:42] <awe> pitti, all set
[16:43] <awe> rickspencer3, pitti: what was the *main* reason for the switch to empathy?
[16:43] <awe> there's not a lot of love for empathy in the oem team
[16:43] <rickspencer3> awe, are you done editing the wiki?
[16:43] <awe> yes
[16:43] <seb128> awe, responsive upstream, aligned on GNOME schedule and using GNOME technologies, video chat
[16:43] <awe> seb128, ah, ok
[16:44] <seb128> awe, but pidgin got video for jabber too meanwhile
[16:44] <pitti> awe: also, new cool features like screen sharing, and better underlying technology (telepathy) for DX team
[16:44] <pitti> rickspencer3: I added my report while I was at editing, FYI
[16:45] <rickspencer3> k
[16:47] <alek66> hi i shutted down some services to free some ram.... but now keyboard and mouse dont work
[16:47] <alek66> any help
[16:47] <alek66> ??
[16:47] <pitti> alek66: you killed hal?
[16:48] <alek66> nooo
[16:48] <seb128> try #ubuntu for user support?
[16:48] <alek66> I used ubuntu service settings program in administration...
[16:48] <alek66> and ... i shutted down cron, acron, somo loggins services
[16:49] <alek66> so i cant use de bash_history
[16:49] <alek66> to figure out which ones are out...
[16:49] <alek66> is there a way to set the "default"nes back up online?
[16:50] <pitti> I'm afraid there isn't, you have to re-enable them manually
[16:50] <alek66> where... do i do that...
[16:50] <pitti> seb128: which lets me wonder, should we still ship services-admin by default in the first place?
[16:50] <alek66> taking into account that i have no key o mouse
[16:51] <alek66> i can acces via recoverymode
[16:51] <pitti> alek66: try sudo /etc/init.d/hal start in a text terminal (Ctrl+Alt+F1)
[16:51] <alek66> but its console... and i dot know where to go to set them back again
[16:51] <pitti> and then use users-admin again
[16:51] <pitti> but, please, #ubuntu
[16:51] <seb128> pitti, I would say no the thing it's so buggy it destroys your config rather than give you any useful option
[16:51] <alek66> pitti: i cant altF1.... i only have recovery mode
[16:52] <alek66> or use a live cd to add some lines
[16:52] <pitti> alek66: ok, seems you killed something really important then, sorry
[16:53] <pitti> seb128: added to my todo list
[16:53] <alek66> pitti: thx anyway
[16:53] <cassidy> seb128: btw, fyi, I just made a working video call using MSN ;)
[16:55] <alek66> where can i see wich services load up at starup?
[16:55] <pedro_> MacSlow, does bug 426256  sounds known to you?
[17:00] <pitti> alek66: you can compare /etc/rcS.d/ and /etc/rc2.d/ with a working installation and see which ones are missing
[17:01] <alek66> i dont have a working one...here with me
[17:01] <MacSlow> pedro_, it's certainly a rhythmbox issue... notify-osd displays any valid image passed to it (no matter the aspect ratio)
[17:02] <rickspencer3> hi tkamppeter
[17:02] <tkamppeter> hi
[17:02] <MacSlow> pedro_, See my comments #17, #18 and #19 here https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rhythmbox/+bug/360228
[17:03] <Laney> MacSlow: Are you sure? I think this affects Banshee too
[17:03] <Laney> at least it doesn't display a lot of artwork for me
[17:03] <Laney> haven't investigated an aspect ratio connection
[17:03] <MacSlow> Laney, I can pass any "oddly" sized image at notify-osd
[17:03] <MacSlow> it works
[17:04] <Laney> i'll try getting some debug info later
[17:04] <MacSlow> pedro_, Laney: whatever get dropped there is happening on the "sending application"-side, not on notify-osd's side
[17:04] <seb128> MacSlow, or notify-osd dislikes some specific images ...
[17:04] <MacSlow> pedro_, Laney: just  use notify-send with any image you think doesn't work
[17:05] <pedro_> MacSlow, ok , saw your test case there, thank you
[17:05] <MacSlow> seb128, then gdk-pixbuf would be the next best culprit to poke
[17:05] <pedro_> will open an upstream bug about that
[17:06] <MacSlow> pedro_, but not at gdk-pixbuf... as it just works fine
[17:06] <alek66> pitti:  I checked rc2... has less services udev is not there
[17:06] <pedro_> MacSlow, i know ;-)
[17:06] <alek66> pitti: RC2 has hall
[17:06] <alek66> hal
[17:06] <pitti> alek66: udev is essential
[17:06] <pitti> without it, nothing will work
[17:06] <alek66> pitti: how can i add it!
[17:06] <alek66> ?
[17:07] <pitti> alek66: sudo ln -s ../init.d/udev /etc/rcS.d/S10udev
[17:07] <pitti> alek66: (drop the sudo if you are root in a rescue shell)
[17:08] <alek66> pitti: on rcS udev is there.... in rc2 is missing
[17:08] <pitti> alek66: it shouldn't be in rc2
[17:09] <pitti> alek66: did you compare rcS.d from a live system with your's? boot a live system and mount your root partition there, then you can do stuff in a comfortable environment
[17:09] <alek66> pitti: 10 4
[17:17] <alek66> i dont find any significant difference :S
[17:18] <tkamppeter> pitti, see my mail about the upstream author of foo2zjs.
[17:22] <pitti> tkamppeter: hm, shouldn't Mike and him fight it out and finally decide about the One True Way to access printers?
[17:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: obviously this script is crack, and violating policy of not changing other pacakges' conffiles, so we can't use that
[17:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: I really can't tell whether using usblp is a good or bad thing, I don't even know the reason why it was abandoned..
[17:23] <pitti> Personally, I think usblp is a good thing
[17:27] <rickspencer3> desktop team meeting in 3 minutes
[17:28] <bryce> heya
[17:29] <pitti> hey all
[17:29] <seb128> hey
[17:29] <tseliot> hi all
[17:30] <rickspencer3> asac, bryce ccheney pitti Riddell seb128 tkamppeter tseliot
[17:30]  * pitti waves
[17:30] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-09-08
[17:30]  * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[17:30] <rickspencer3> hi all
[17:30] <rickspencer3> is bryce here, or is he "busy" ;)
[17:30] <bryce> I'm here
[17:30] <ccheney> hi
[17:31] <rickspencer3> all - please welcome tseliot, he'll be standing in for bryce during September
[17:31] <bryce> (and busy but not "busy" quite yet)
[17:31]  * tseliot waves
[17:31] <asac> hi
[17:31]  * pitti puts a "Honorary Desktop Team Member" badge to tseliot's chest
[17:31] <seb128> hey tseliot
[17:31] <pitti> We got you back, after all! muhaha!
[17:31] <alek66> how can i add vnc to the startup programs in ubuntu (text mode)
[17:31] <tseliot> hehe
[17:31] <pitti> alek66: meeting; #ubuntu please
[17:31] <rickspencer3> alek66, we are having our team meeting now
[17:32] <alek66> sorry
[17:32] <rickspencer3> you are welcome to hang out, though
[17:32] <alek66> ok
[17:32] <rickspencer3> no problems, happens all the time
[17:32] <rickspencer3> so, shall we go to the agenda?
[17:33] <rickspencer3> No partner update from Ken, as unfortunately he is taking care of one of his youngsters today
[17:33] <rickspencer3> please focus good thoughts Ken's way
[17:33] <rickspencer3> Riddell?
[17:34] <rickspencer3> hmm
[17:34] <rickspencer3> not sure Riddell is really here, so moving on
[17:34] <rickspencer3> we have two discussion topics
[17:34] <seb128> shape to be a quick meeting? ;-)
[17:34] <rickspencer3> first one is easy:
[17:34] <rickspencer3> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-messages/+milestone/ubuntu-9.10-beta-freeze
[17:34] <rickspencer3> seb128, (not when we get to the pidgin topic ;) )
[17:35] <seb128> ;-)
[17:35] <rickspencer3> this link is a list that includes changes to apps that will be necessary when the updated messaging menu lands
[17:35] <rickspencer3> there is a lot of work there, though shouldn't be too complex
[17:36] <rickspencer3> I would like each of these to have an assignee by the end of this week, though not necessarily on the desktop team
[17:36] <seb128> I'm not sure about the one assigned to me, you want to remove pidgin launchers from people who have configured one?
[17:36] <seb128> should we also remove the evolution launcher from the default installation?
[17:36] <rickspencer3> seb128, right, because the launcher will live in the messaging menu
[17:36] <rickspencer3> same with evolution launcher
[17:36] <rickspencer3> so we don't need two launchers and a menu entry
[17:36] <rickspencer3> and we can start cleaning up the gnome-panel
[17:36] <seb128> I don't like much deleting things users configured
[17:36] <rickspencer3> (just help will be left, I suppose)
[17:37] <rickspencer3> seb128, are they not there by default?
[17:37] <seb128> especially that everybody until now told me that having launcher is the message indicator is non obvious to all the users they know
[17:37] <rickspencer3> is it only evo that we put there by default?
[17:37] <seb128> right
[17:37] <seb128> only evo
[17:37] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm, not sure how much our team can help here -- it will take some time to learn the APIs, and start the porting
[17:38] <seb128> rickspencer3, we can discuss that later not really a meeting topic
[17:38] <rickspencer3> ok ... so for a default install, no more evo on the panel
[17:38] <rickspencer3> for an upgrade, I'm not so sure
[17:38] <seb128> ok
[17:38] <seb128> same here ;-)
[17:38] <seb128> I know some people will hate us for deleting their launchers
[17:38] <rickspencer3> pitti, right ... but I thought some people might have interest in the particular apps, and we should strive to help the dx team
[17:39] <rickspencer3> so if someone sees one they think they can do, please snag it
[17:39] <seb128> especially if they don't figure those are in the message indicator
[17:39] <seb128> anyway we can discuss that off meeting
[17:39] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:39] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:39]  * rickspencer3 fills with dread
[17:40] <tseliot> heh
[17:40] <rickspencer3> I'd like to raise the topic of pidgin versus empathy for Karmic
[17:40]  * seb128 looks for a shield
[17:40] <rickspencer3> I would like to engender a general discussion now
[17:40] <ccheney> lol :-)
[17:40]  * ccheney didn't much like empathy due to its lack of timestamping like pidgin does, but ymmv
[17:40] <rickspencer3> but after the discussion I will huddle with seb128 and pitti ...
[17:40]  * tseliot wears a fire-proof suit
[17:40] <rickspencer3> and then I will make a call
[17:40] <pitti> it's a bit weird to see this happen now, since 4 months ago all people on devel@ and at UDS were so much in favor of empathy..
[17:41] <rickspencer3> (and so it begins ...)
[17:41]  * ccheney likes empathy better... in theory ;-)
[17:41] <seb128> pitti, I never had this feeling
[17:41] <rickspencer3> pitti, do you feel that empathy has the quality we need?
[17:41] <bryce> heh, I've never used either one of these.  I feel ooollllldddd
[17:41] <pitti> FWIW, for my own personal use it's no worse or better than pidgin
[17:41] <pitti> but I'm just using jabber and icq
[17:41] <seb128> I had the feeling that distro team was in favor but vast majority of user reaction was "empathy is nowhere near as good as pidgin"
[17:42] <djsiegel> rugby471: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/KarmicFusa#(Fast)%20User%20Switching
[17:42] <djsiegel> rugby471: can you see that that is fixed please?
[17:42] <seb128> djsiegel, we are in the middle of a meeting
[17:42] <djsiegel> oops
[17:42] <djsiegel> oh!
[17:42] <djsiegel> sorry
[17:42] <seb128> no problem ;-)
[17:42] <tseliot> maybe it's because (currently) pidgin supports more protocols (even facebook chat)
[17:42] <seb128> so in my opinion empathy is a great basic im
[17:42] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008720.html raises a good point, though
[17:43] <seb128> but lacks quite some testing and polish
[17:43] <seb128> and lot of small and extra options pidgin has
[17:43] <ccheney> seb128: agreed
[17:43] <bryce> seb128, let's delete both and blame on cd size
[17:43] <pitti> in that pidgin is heavily used in windows as well
[17:43] <seb128> otr, pidgin, timestamp, text formatting, etc
[17:43]  * ccheney thinks maybe switching to empathy could help get it to pidgin parity sooner, but not really sure
[17:43] <pitti> do we have someone from DX here?
[17:44] <tseliot> bryce: nice :-P
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008317.html
[17:44] <pitti> if we would switch, would that disrupt anything that builds on top of telepathy in karmic?
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, no
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, they have parity features for pidgin and empathy
[17:44] <seb128> ie look at the list from rickspencer3 before
[17:44] <pitti> ok
[17:45] <rickspencer3> pitti, we were expecting some dependencies on telepathy, but everything that was dependent on it was postponed
[17:45] <bryce> ccheney, an argument could be made that by not switching, it establishes a higher bar and might give motivation to complete whatever features are missing by next Ubuntu release.
[17:45] <ccheney> bryce: true too
[17:45] <rickspencer3> I used empathy for irc up to a week ago
[17:45] <rickspencer3> and it crashed frequently
[17:45] <seb128> so the url I just copied has a list of small features
[17:45] <pitti> well, it really sucks for IRC, but so does pidgin
[17:45] <rickspencer3> pedro_, do you have a sense of the quality for empathy?
[17:45] <seb128> there is a lot of small things, but those small things is what make most im users enthousiastic
[17:46] <rickspencer3> pitti, right, but I'm really intersted in discussing the robustness for a moment
[17:46] <pedro_> well is not that rock solid as pidgin is right now i'd say
[17:46] <tseliot> pitti: I have no problems with IRC on pidgin here
[17:46] <tseliot> (maybe it's just me)
[17:46] <pedro_> we're still getting crashes for things like offline messages, etc
[17:46] <pitti> for me, pidgin and empathy both crash perhaps once a week or so, it's below my threshold for noticing; but I understand other protocols might be much worse
[17:46] <seb128> there is a high number of crashes in the bug list
[17:46] <seb128> but pidgin get quite some of those too to be fair
[17:47]  * seb128 should switch to empathy again
[17:47] <rickspencer3> the other issue is migrating users
[17:47] <pitti> so, I think what we need is a set of criteria
[17:47] <kklimonda> heh, I can't start empathy for few days
[17:47] <pedro_> yes but at least it doesn't show you an apport window every few minutes regarding a telepathy-* something crash
[17:47] <pitti> i. e. what do we expect an IM to do to be a suitable default
[17:48] <rickspencer3> pitti, #1 it should support the most popular protocols
[17:48] <bryce> pitti, not crashing sounds important
[17:48] <pitti> support file transfer
[17:48]  * tseliot agrees
[17:48] <rickspencer3> we really wanted video and voice chat, but pidgin has added that
[17:48] <seb128> the most popular are msn, yahoo and icq I would say
[17:48] <seb128> and IRC in our community
[17:49] <tseliot> seb128: and gtalk maybe
[17:49] <pedro_> jabber is becoming really popular thanks to gtalk now
[17:49] <seb128> ups, jabber for sure yes
[17:49] <pitti> seb128: well, TBH, few, if any, developer uses pidgin or empathy for IRC
[17:49] <seb128> pitti, ted does ;-)
[17:49] <jcastro> I've yet to make a successfull A/V call with either empathy or pidgin in karmic
[17:49] <pitti> but it should work, since we need a basic IRC client for the live system
[17:49]  * tseliot raises his hand
[17:49] <rickspencer3> pitti, lots of people use pidgin for irc
[17:49] <seb128> jcastro, same here ...
[17:49] <crevette> hello
[17:50] <pedro_> well most of users i know use pidgin/empathy for everything , they want a single application that could handle every communication protocol out there
[17:50] <crevette> didrocks, you uploaded gnome-shell? apparently it can't find clutter-glx-1.0 and hence doesn't start
[17:50] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm; I find both absolutely useless for IRC.. but oh well
[17:50] <rickspencer3> let's talk about the rational for moving to empathy real quick
[17:50] <pedro_> so yes IRC is one of them
[17:50] <rickspencer3> crevette, fyi - we're ina  team meeting atm
[17:50] <crevette> oups
[17:50] <seb128> crevette, we are in a meeting and I did upload it
[17:50] <rickspencer3> reasons for empathy:
[17:50] <crevette> sorry
[17:50] <rickspencer3> crevette, np, happens all the time
[17:51] <rickspencer3> reasons: get video chat
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 2. get a product on the gnome schedule
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 3. get telepathy and the cool things built on tubes
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 4. make the switch before an LTS
[17:51] <rickspencer3>  
[17:51] <pitti> as to 4, client(karmic) == client(karmic+1)
[17:52] <rickspencer3> so, some changes
[17:52] <rickspencer3> 1. pidgin added video chat
[17:52] <rickspencer3> 3. telepathy has screen sharing now, which is pretty cool
[17:52] <rickspencer3> and also, I'm not certain the quality is where it needs to be
[17:53] <rickspencer3> pitti, will we have a chance to move the Empathy/Telepathy in 10.4, or not because it is an LTS?
[17:53] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, technically we can, of course, but I'd rather avoid it
[17:53] <jcastro> rickspencer3: I think video chat is not going to happen for either client for karmic. Both kind-of-sort-of work but not really.
[17:54] <pitti> so far the plan is that karmic+1 == karmic plus boot speed plus bug fixes
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:54] <jcastro> Has anyone been able to make a video call with either client?
[17:54] <pitti> we won't even autosync
[17:54] <asac> what protocol is video chat going to speak? anything that also bridges to windows world?
[17:54] <pitti> audio/video is busted with empathy right now, supposedly since we didn't enable NAT traversal
[17:54] <seb128> jcastro, no
[17:54] <jcastro> pitti: I can't get it to work on a local network either.
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ok, so video is a bust in both?
[17:54] <rickspencer3> any last comments?
[17:55] <ccheney> pitti: so no new gnome in 10.04?
[17:55] <seb128> rickspencer3, right now it seems to be
[17:55] <pitti> ccheney: well, that will get the usual exception, I guess, especially for the gnome 3.0 api cleanup
[17:55] <ccheney> pitti: ok
[17:55] <pitti> ccheney: we can get new versions, but only on manual requests, not through autosyncs
[17:56]  * ccheney could definitely use the time to catch up on the huge backlog of OOo bugs, heh
[17:56] <rickspencer3> so, nothing to add to the empathy vs. pidgin discussion?
[17:56] <pitti> I don't have a strong opinion about it, TBH
[17:56] <seb128> not really
[17:56] <pitti> I'm mainly concerned about rolling back in terms of breaking FF
[17:57] <pitti> and in not having telepathy for karmic+1 and DX/OLS requirements
[17:57] <rickspencer3> sticking with pidgin seems less risky for 9.10, but moving to empathy in 9.10 seems less risky for 10.04
[17:57] <seb128> I fear that a good part of our userbase loves pidgin and will be angry if we switch them to empathy for lot of small reasons
[17:57] <tseliot> seb128: +1
[17:57] <seb128> a bit less stability, lot of small things "cool kids" want in a im and empathy doesn't have, etc
[17:57] <pitti> so if we don't remove pidgin on upgrade, would that mitigate that?
[17:57] <iainfarrell> Hi all, as a newcomer can I ask a daft question?
[17:57] <ccheney> rickspencer3: yea, if we want to go to empathy for 10.04 we definitely should do it now to have more time to shake out remaining bugs and try to fix some of the feature regressions
[17:57] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, sure, let me introduce you
[17:57] <pitti> iainfarrell: sure, we just have a meeting right now; can you wait until it's done, please?
[17:58] <seb128> pitti, I would be fine installing empathy by default in karmic and letting upgraders on pidgin
[17:58] <rickspencer3> all, meet iainfarrell he's the new project manager for the design team
[17:58] <iainfarrell> hi there
[17:58] <rickspencer3> I invited him to attend the meeting
[17:58] <bryce> heya iainfarrell
[17:58] <pitti> seb128: (that's the current behaviour anyway..)
[17:58] <iainfarrell> it's to do with the switch to Empathy
[17:58] <iainfarrell> can we move people to the new app and move all their login details and prefs?
[17:58] <pitti> iainfarrell: ah, sorry; sure, please go ahead if you want to join the current discussion
[17:58] <seb128> hey iainfarrell
[17:58] <iainfarrell> or are they basically starting again?
[17:58] <rickspencer3> oh, iainfarrell
[17:59] <seb128> the accounts are migrated
[17:59] <rickspencer3> this is well tread ground
[17:59] <iainfarrell> ahh ok
[17:59] <seb128> but settings and logs are not
[17:59] <rickspencer3> we can migrate the accounts that Empathy supports
[17:59] <iainfarrell> right, gotcha
[17:59] <rickspencer3> but Empathy functionality is not a super set of pidgin functionality
[17:59] <rickspencer3> this leads somewhat to the difficultly making this deciscion
[17:59] <rickspencer3> seb128, telepathy without empathy, does this make any sense?
[18:00] <rickspencer3> or is empathy used as the UI to initiate interactions?
[18:00] <seb128> if there is any other telepathy "consumer"
[18:00] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, it's a good question, glad we got it here
[18:00] <seb128> it would not do a lot in karmic
[18:00] <iainfarrell> I see and would it be madness to consider both being in there so that people can carry on but making one default to new users?
[18:00] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, worse than madness
[18:00] <rickspencer3> a violation of the essential ubuntu design ethic, we choose on behalf of the user
[18:01] <rickspencer3> "there can be only one"
[18:01] <rickspencer3> ;)
[18:01] <rickspencer3> we can install empathy only in new installs, and not remove pidgin for old installs
[18:01] <rickspencer3> (the upgrade case)
[18:01] <rickspencer3> so upgraders would end up with both
[18:02] <pitti> ^ that's in fact how Debian/Ubuntu behaves by default
[18:02] <pitti> we only offer to clean up packages after upgrade which moved to universe
[18:02] <rickspencer3> how about ...
[18:02] <pitti> so if we don't do anything, that behaviour will be exactly as rickspencer3 describes
[18:02] <seb128> well, I'm fine with that
[18:02] <rickspencer3> 1. We install empathy for new installs, leave pidgin in place
[18:02] <seb128> but apparently we got complains about having upgrades diverging from new installs
[18:02] <rickspencer3> 2. in 10.04 we move pidgin to universe?
[18:03] <rickspencer3> right sabdfl would like us to work to having upgrades and default installs as similar as possible
[18:03] <cassidy> FYI Telepathy will be used in GNOME 2.28 in: vino/vinagre, gnome-games (sudoku) and nautilus-sendto
[18:03] <cassidy> there is also a Banshee plugin (soc) but I don't know if it's already merged or not
[18:03] <rickspencer3> however, I don't think we can accomedate this in 9.10 given where we are in the schedule (unless we stick with pidgin)
[18:04] <seb128> cassidy, nautilus-sendto ... any different from what it does now to use pidgin?
[18:04] <cassidy> don't know (I don't use Pidgin ;). Probably not
[18:05] <cassidy> oh and we should make a release of telepathy-butterfly supporting audio/video in the next few days
[18:05] <seb128> what does it do you of sending the file to an im contact?
[18:05] <cassidy> what do you mean?
[18:05] <seb128> don't bother I will try
[18:05] <seb128> just to make sure what that does exactly
[18:05] <seb128> I will also try again if I can get vnc sharing or video over jabber working
[18:06] <seb128> those have all been fails until now there
[18:06] <cassidy> not sure if nautilus-sendto with latest code has been released yet
[18:06] <cassidy> seb128: be sure to have latest release of vino and vinagre
[18:06] <seb128> I've the one rolled on monday
[18:06] <cassidy> if that doesn't work for you please open bugs :)
[18:06] <seb128> is that new enough?
[18:06] <cassidy> I guess
[18:06] <pitti> seb128: I guess we need to enable NAT traversal for all that stuff to work
[18:06] <seb128> well, the issue was traversing nat
[18:06] <cassidy> that uses SOCKS5 proxy atm
[18:06] <pitti> anyway, let's discuss that after the meeting
[18:07] <pitti> too much detail
[18:07] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:07] <cassidy> so having a fast proxy on your jabber server helps a lot
[18:07] <rickspencer3> any last comments?
[18:07] <pitti> SNAFU :)
[18:07] <rickspencer3> movign on
[18:07] <cassidy> seb128: I'm about to leave, any other question?
[18:07]  * rickspencer3 waits
[18:08] <seb128> cassidy, not especially we discuss it again later
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:08] <rickspencer3> last thing for desktop team
[18:08] <rickspencer3> please check your assigned bugs for targeted bugs
[18:08] <pitti> *emphasize*
[18:08] <rickspencer3> we have two bugs targeted to A6!
[18:08] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[18:09] <pitti> nothing there to be really concerned yet, but it keeps piling up
[18:09] <rickspencer3> I'll follow up individually for ones I am worried about
[18:09] <pitti> well, I rather have more bugs there than less, though
[18:09] <bryce> anyone here having any X freeze bugs?
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: o/
[18:09] <pitti> didn't get to reporting it yet, though
[18:09] <rickspencer3> bryce, I haven't gotten the updated kernel yet
[18:09] <pitti> will do
[18:09] <bryce> ok
[18:10] <rickspencer3> I've been hearing about freezes here an there
[18:10] <rickspencer3> bryce, any pattern to it?
[18:10] <bryce> I think when we get a well-reported one of those, it will be a release critical bug
[18:10] <rickspencer3> pitti, could you be that well-reported bug?
[18:10] <tseliot> bryce: is that with intel? And is it random?
[18:10] <bryce> rickspencer3, not so far.  I forwarded mdz's upstream even though we don't have enough info or steps to reproduce.  Upstream (predictably) de-prioritized it due to that lack.
[18:10] <pitti> bryce: I get freezes a few hours after resuming
[18:11] <bryce> tseliot, yes, and only occurs after a long while so really hard to reproduce
[18:11] <tseliot> oh
[18:11] <pitti> but never when I don't suspend, it's rock rock rock stable
[18:11] <bryce> having steps to reproduce would be *really* helpful
[18:11] <rickspencer3> so we remove the "suspend" capability from Karmic, no more freezes
[18:11] <bryce> heh
[18:11] <pitti> bryce: 1. suspend/resume, 2. wait for hours :-(
[18:11] <bryce> pitti, with or without compiz?
[18:11] <pitti> there is no apparent action which triggers it
[18:11] <pitti> bryce: compiz
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: but I'll collect the logs next time
[18:12] <bryce> ok, I have some ideas, we can chat more later.
[18:12] <pitti> GPU dump and all that
[18:12] <rickspencer3> pitti, if you suspend and run some kind of "make compiz do crazy stuff" script, maybe you can repro it faster?
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: it doesn't even happen on desktop switch or that kind of stuff, but I can re-run the compiz stress test we used for the i965 problem in jaunty
[18:12] <bryce> rickspencer3, yeah we have a script which helps trigger these, I'll give pitti pointers offline
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: thanks
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ACTION: pitti to try to repro x freeze and log bug
[18:13] <pitti> $ ~bryce/bin/compiz-tramp
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ACTION: all to review release targeted bugs and fix the milestoned ones
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to disuss piddin/empathy with seb128 and pitti and make call for Karmic
[18:14] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:14] <tseliot> bryce: that script might come in handy here too (I have several netbooks with intel)
[18:15] <rickspencer3> okay
[18:15] <rickspencer3> I guess that's a warp
[18:15] <rickspencer3> thanks all
[18:15]  * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[18:15] <pitti> warp speed!
[18:15] <pitti> thanks all
[18:16] <bryce> thanks
[18:16] <pitti> bryce: are your compiz stress scripts online somewhere?
[18:16] <bryce> pitti, yep I think so let me dig them up
[18:16] <chrisccoulson> have you just finished your meeting? (sorry if i'm still interrupting)
[18:16] <bryce> for this, it's basically mdz's script so if you still have that around just use it
[18:16] <bryce> chrisccoulson, yep
[18:17] <chrisccoulson> cool! seb128 - did anyone step up to the libgdata MIR yet?
[18:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson, no
[18:17] <chrisccoulson> ok, i'll try and take a look at that this evening then
[18:18] <pitti> bryce: I don't have it any more, sorry
[18:21] <c_korn> can someone help me with gconf listeners ?
[18:21] <bryce> pitti, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25683477/repro.sh
[18:21] <tkamppeter> rickspencer3, pitti: I have a problem with a package upload and Launchpad.
[18:21] <pitti> bryce: thanks
[18:22] <pitti> tkamppeter: --verbose?
[18:22] <seb128> c_korn, don't ask to ask just ask
[18:22] <tkamppeter> The package is HPLIP, the printer driver package from HP.
[18:23] <tkamppeter> Ebvery two months they release to support their newest models. I upload then with a list of the newly supported models in debian/changelog.
[18:23] <tkamppeter> In 3.9.6 they listed three models in error which I have also listed in the changelog.
[18:23] <rugby471> mpt: hullo :-)
[18:24] <mpt> hi rugby471
[18:24] <tkamppeter> Today I got a mail from the HP guys asking for removal of these model names from around 10 pages withing Launchpad and the mailing list archives.
[18:24] <c_korn> fine, I have this little code which should update the indicator-session menu when the gconf key SUPPRESS_KEY is changed: http://pastebin.com/d13ef7d3a
[18:24] <seb128> crevette, what did you ask before?
[18:24] <tkamppeter> It seems that debian/changelog gets reproduced on all these pages.
[18:24] <crevette> gnome-shell is not starting on my station, due to a missing so
[18:25] <seb128> crevette, did you try gnome-shell --xephyr?
[18:25] <pitti> tkamppeter: yes, and on changelogs.ubuntu.com, and in the karmic-changes@ mailing list archive, and on ML mirrors, etc.
[18:25] <crevette> actually a symlink solved the problem
[18:25] <pitti> tkamppeter: the old problem that you can't really purge information from the internet
[18:25] <bryce> pitti, added to bzr @ https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/xorg-server/xsmoke
[18:25] <crevette> seb128, started by replace and xephyr after, both failed
[18:25] <pitti> tkamppeter: were these yet unofficial printers? did you get the list from a public source?
[18:25] <chrisccoulson> c_korn - how come you're using GConfListeners?
[18:25] <seb128> crevette, works there, is your karmic uptodate?
[18:26] <chrisccoulson> you can just do gconf_client_notify_add on your GConfClient and specify the key there
[18:26] <c_korn> chrisccoulson: tedg adviced me to use them. but I am open for new ideas :)
[18:26] <pitti> bryce: heh, nice; playing 30 videos in parallel? :-)
[18:26] <pitti> bryce: I'll run that in a bit; my wife will return any minute, then it can grind away in teh evening
[18:26] <tkamppeter> pitti, the printer list is from the release notes on their public web site.
[18:26] <mpt> rugby471, quite a few more bugs to fix now :-)
[18:26] <crevette> seb128, error was "Exception was: Error: Error invoking Clutter.from_pixel: Could not locate clutter_color_from_pixel: libclutter-glx-1.0.so: Ne peut ouvrir le fichier d'objet partagÃ©: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type"
[18:26] <chrisccoulson> c_korn - i've never seen that used before. Everything else I've seen just uses gconf_client_notify_add
[18:27] <chrisccoulson> perhaps there's a reason tedg suggested it though
[18:27] <bryce> pitti, great
[18:27] <pitti> tkamppeter: so what do they complain about then?
[18:27] <seb128> crevette, dpkg -l libclutter-1.0-0
[18:27] <mpt> mvo, anything you'd like from me before I leave for the Land of No-Internet?
[18:27] <crevette> so to fix that I created a symlink libclutter-glx-1.0.so pointing to libclutter-glx-1.0.so.0 (kkind of lame I know)
[18:27] <tkamppeter> pitti, they are even still there.
[18:27] <crevette> seb128, it is installed
[18:28] <crevette> version is 1.0.0-1ubuntu1
[18:28] <pitti> tkamppeter: hm, why should we remove them then? we could remove them from the current changelog in the next upload, then it would gradually disappear
[18:28] <pitti> tkamppeter: would that be "good enough"?
[18:28] <chrisccoulson> c_korn - the issue with GConfListeners is that when your notify function is called after a value changes, you have to then query the database for the updated value i think (although I've never has any experience with using it)
[18:28] <johanbr> jcastro, empathy audio/video works for me
[18:29] <chrisccoulson> but when you use gconf_client_notify_add, the GConfEntry for the key that changed is passed to your callback, and you can get the new value from that without then having to query the database
[18:29] <crevette> seb128, in the deb, the file libclutter-glx-1.0.so doesn't exist
[18:30] <c_korn> chrisccoulson: ok, thanks. I will try that. I think tedg is satisfied as long as it works :)
[18:30] <pitti> seb128: oh, thaaaaaaaaaaanks! *hug*
[18:30] <pitti> seb128: bug 424912, that was driving me nuts
[18:30] <chrisccoulson> c_korn - yeah, i would go with my suggestion - it's used already in a lot of places and you should be able to find some good examples of how to do it in most gnome apps
[18:33] <seb128> pitti, ;-)
[18:33] <seb128> crevette, try libclutter-1.0-dev
[18:34] <pitti> I'm off for today; cu tomorrow!
[18:34] <crevette> seb128, ah true
[18:34] <crevette> bye pitti
[18:34] <crevette> seb128, thanks
[18:35] <tkamppeter> pitti, I have ansered to the HP guy. Thanks for your help.
[18:36] <seb128> pitti, enjoy
[18:36] <seb128> crevette, you're welcome
[18:37] <chrisccoulson> good night pitti!
[18:37] <seb128> crevette, it's working now?
[18:40] <crevette> seb128, yes
[18:44] <seb128> good
[18:45] <crevette> sorry for the noise during the meeting :/
[18:57] <seb128> that's ok
[18:58] <didrocks> seb128: is there a dependency issue/wrong package for a file?
[18:59] <seb128> didrocks, no, they use a .so at loading time
[18:59] <seb128> bbl dinner
[19:00] <didrocks> seb128: ok. Have a good dinner :)
[19:03] <rickspencer3> ccheney, did you see that I assigned that F11 OOo but to you?
[19:03]  * Amaranth wishes we could backport "features" from Qt git
[19:30] <ccheney> rickspencer3: not yet, will look at it
[20:35] <dobey> huh
[20:36] <dobey> how do i link an upstream bug to a report against a package in ubuntu? "Also affects project" won't let me specify a URL for an upstream report...
[20:38] <chrisccoulson> dobey - it should do
[20:39] <chrisccoulson> is it asking you to specify a project?
[20:39] <dobey> chrisccoulson: it won't let me... i just put the url in a comment
[20:39] <dobey> chrisccoulson: yeah
[20:39] <dobey> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-oauth/+bug/426442
[20:40] <chrisccoulson> dobey - you trying to register it against the poauth project>
[20:40] <chrisccoulson> ?
[20:41] <chrisccoulson> because poauth is set up to use launchpad for bug tracking, which might be why you see the problem
[20:41] <dobey> chrisccoulson: no
[20:41] <dobey> chrisccoulson: http://code.google.com/p/oauth/issues/detail?id=117
[20:41] <dobey> python-oauth != poauth
[20:41] <chrisccoulson> ah
[20:41] <dobey> and poauth isn't in ubuntu :)
[20:42] <dobey> (yet)
[20:43] <chrisccoulson> dobey - done
[20:43] <dobey> thanks... wonder why i couldn't do it though
[20:43] <dobey> oh
[20:43] <chrisccoulson> you just need to select "oauth" as the project, and then it lets you specify the URL once you've done that
[20:43] <dobey> weird
[20:44] <dobey> usually i can just put a url in though
[20:44] <chrisccoulson> dobey - that's normally the case if the ubuntu package is linked to an upstream project i think
[20:44] <chrisccoulson> but i don't know how that magic happens ;)
[20:44] <dobey> yeah me either
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> in this case, you need to specify the upstream project, because launchpad doesn't know what the upstream for python-oauth is
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> dobey: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-oauth
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> "This package is not linked to an upstream product. "
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> thats why
[20:45] <chrisccoulson> but i don't know how to change that
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> done!
[20:46] <chrisccoulson> it's linked now
[20:48] <dobey> heh, ok
[21:52] <rickspencer3-afk> kenvandine, hi
[21:52] <rickspencer3-afk> welcome back!!
[21:53] <rickspencer3-afk> kenvandine, any chance you could dig me up some sample code for posting through gwibber that works?
[21:54] <kenvandine> rickspencer3-afk, in a bit...
[21:54] <rickspencer3-afk> k
[21:59] <eeejay> TheMuso, ping, are you arounf?
[22:45] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, are you sure you want to change the default txt +x behaviour?
[22:45] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, that means that double click on scripts will not ask if you want to edit or run those
[22:45] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, the dialog is only asked when the file is +x which is usually an issue on vfat drive thanks to the fs limitations...
[23:01] <TheMuso> eeejay: I am around now.
[23:02] <eeejay> hey TheMuso, sd keeps crashing, some libdotfile double free, is that known?
[23:04] <TheMuso> eeejay: Not known by me at least.
[23:05]  * TheMuso is not sure what libdotfile would be.
[23:05] <eeejay> TheMuso, it is the config file parser sd uses
[23:05] <eeejay> TheMuso, i think i found the issue though, double quotes
[23:06] <TheMuso> eeejay: Ah, so its a dotconf issue, right.
[23:06] <eeejay> TheMuso, in any case, i cant get a session sd running. i get connection refused with spd-say, even though i see that sd is running
[23:06] <TheMuso> eeejay: Do you have the SPEECHD_PORT environment variable set in your session, and is speech-dispatcher listening on that port?
[23:07] <TheMuso> eeejay: and do you have the port number configuration variable set in the config file?
[23:08] <eeejay> TheMuso, no SPEECHD_PORT variable, i needed to run speechd-server-spawn manually
[23:09] <TheMuso> eeejay: If you installed speech-dispatcher then tried to use it straight away, that explains why.
[23:09] <TheMuso> eeejay: There should be a script in /etc/profile.d that sets the environment variable/port based on your user ID.
[23:10]  * eeejay checks
[23:11] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, I'm not sure what to do
[23:11] <rickspencer3-afk> the problem is that the bug had stagnated
[23:11] <rickspencer3-afk> we should fix it or close it
[23:11] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, I've added a comment on the bug
[23:11] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, so what would it take to *really* fix the bug?
[23:12] <rickspencer3-afk> check if it's on a fat drive? fix fat?
[23:12] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, well I though that the design was supposed to do recommendations?
[23:12] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, well, their recommendation was to switch to always display
[23:13] <rickspencer3-afk> maybe it's okay if double clicking on scripts makes them run
[23:13] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, well mac_v commented saying "But changing the default behavior is not the way to do it."
[23:13] <TheMuso> eeejay: I wouldn't need to set the environment variable if there were another way to communicate the port to clients.
[23:13] <rickspencer3-afk> I mean, makes them open in the editor
[23:13] <rickspencer3-afk> hmmm
[23:13] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, the issue is not trivial enough for a papercut I would say
[23:13] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, okay, I'll look at your comment
[23:14] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, there is usually reason why such bugs are open for years
[23:14] <rickspencer3-afk> let me think
[23:14] <TheMuso> eeejay: Long term, dbus is going to be the likely replacement I think.
[23:14] <rickspencer3-afk> hmm
[23:14] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, anyway to be constructive, a fix would be to make the behaviour dynamic according to the filesystem, we can't change vfat and there is a reason why those drives are mounted +x
[23:14] <mac_v> seb128: rickspencer3-afk fixing ntfs mounts to be noexec by default would be better  , IMO
[23:14] <eeejay> TheMuso, agreed :)
[23:15] <eeejay> TheMuso, in any case, there is no speech-dispatcher related file in /etc/profile.d
[23:15] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, we could make the behaviour change dynamically according to the filesystem, but I'm not sure that would not confuse users ... it would not be obvious why it behaves differently in different locations
[23:15] <mac_v> its not a nautilus issue
[23:15] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, how frequently do people click on documents to run them?
[23:15] <seb128> mac_v, it's not only ntfs, it's only vfat, and I think there is a reason the current mount options are used
[23:16] <mac_v> yup those too :)
[23:16] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, we are not speaking about document, we are speaking about scripts
[23:16] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, ie a txt file with commands which is +x
[23:16] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, right, but when they appear as documents within nautilus, right?
[23:16] <seb128> no
[23:16] <rickspencer3-afk> so I send you a .sh file, and you double click on it in nautilus
[23:16] <rickspencer3-afk> oh?
[23:16] <seb128> well nautilus displays the txt content
[23:16] <seb128> not sure if you call that a "document"
[23:17] <rickspencer3-afk> in any case, it happens when I double click on an icon in nautilus, right?
[23:17] <seb128> if you send me a .sh and I double click on it it's opened in my text editor
[23:17] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, unless I set the +x bit, in which case, what happens?
[23:17] <seb128> it happens when you double click on a text which is set +x (executable)
[23:17] <mac_v> rickspencer3-afk: but people do click to run the scripts ,too ... since they are used to clicking it than running from terminal
[23:17] <rickspencer3-afk> right
[23:18] <rickspencer3-afk> mac_v, that;s what I'm saying
[23:18] <mac_v> oh ok
[23:18] <mac_v> :)
[23:18] <rickspencer3-afk> in these cases they appear to be programs, and double clicking on them seems like a normal way to run them
[23:18] <TheMuso> eeejay: hrm ok, let me sync the latest live CD to see if its in a pristeen livefs.
[23:18] <rickspencer3-afk> so if instead it opens in gedit and shows all this shell or python code, this could be not such a great experience
[23:18] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, well a script is the source and the binary at the same time
[23:19] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, but what I'm saying is, to users, they are icons
[23:19] <seb128> there is no easy way to fix that ubiquity
[23:19] <rickspencer3-afk> icons that you click and they run
[23:19] <seb128> depends of the users
[23:19] <rickspencer3-afk> to developers, they are script files, as you say
[23:19] <seb128> to me they are python scripts I want to edit ;-)
[23:19] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, right
[23:19] <mac_v> , wouldnt be a pretty sight if the scripts are shown for the non techies ;)
[23:19] <seb128> you suggest changing the icon then?
[23:19] <rickspencer3-afk> no, I think that this is too complex to be a paper cut
[23:20] <rickspencer3-afk> and the current behavior is the best we are going to get for this release
[23:20] <seb128> right, that's what I was saying before
[23:20] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, right, I'm saying you convinced me
[23:20] <seb128> good ;-)
[23:20] <rickspencer3-afk> unless we want to give up on users being able to click on an icon to run a program
[23:20] <rickspencer3-afk> but that seems rather drastic
[23:21] <rickspencer3-afk> ccheney, can you please change the OO key binding by tomorrow?
[23:21] <seb128> changing for something not better is usually not a good idea
[23:21] <rickspencer3-afk> seb128, thanks for looking it at
[23:21] <ccheney> rickspencer3-afk: i'll do my best, i think its quite a few files to change iirc
[23:21] <seb128> you manage to annoy everybody when you do that, those who don't like change, those who liked the old behaviour better ...
[23:21] <seb128> rickspencer3-afk, you're welcome
[23:21] <rickspencer3-afk> ccheney, can't we just patch the keyboard file, or whatever it is?
[23:22] <mac_v> rickspencer3-afk: cant we mount the ntfs , vfat as noexec by default? would that be tough too?
[23:22] <rickspencer3-afk> mac_v, I don't know, but I would not call that a paper cut
[23:22] <seb128> there is a reason that's not done I think
[23:22] <rickspencer3-afk> that seems like it would start to unravel all kinds of things, and would be better tried at the *beginning* of a release
[23:22] <fta> after some cleanup, my desktop only has folders and symlinks to folders, 2 lines of ~10. Each time i reboot/restart X, the folders are in the right place while symlinks have moved vertically, below the 1st row. is that a bug or a (weird) feature?
[23:23] <ccheney> rickspencer3-afk: its per language aiui, but will dig into to see what it takes to do it
[23:23] <mac_v> rickspencer3-afk: so could you pls comment on the bug , these problems :)
[23:24] <mac_v> simply changing the files to open in gedit as default , would be a bad move :/
[23:26] <rickspencer3-afk> mac_v, well .. that's what the patch did
[23:27] <seb128> chrisccoulson: any idea why the gdm login screen has no suspend or hibernate?
[23:27] <rickspencer3-afk> but I agree, it's not a good solution ... the bug is not really a paper cut in that sense
[23:27] <mac_v> rickspencer3-afk: yeah , the patch is misguided by the reporter's suggestions
[23:27] <rickspencer3-afk> we should thank the patch submitter profusely ...
[23:27] <rickspencer3> and the patch may be useful to others
[23:28] <seb128> hum
[23:28] <ccheney> hmm wikipedia claims Gnome is ctrl-f11, did we change that to just f11 or is wikipedia wrong?
[23:28] <seb128> the gpm icon on my laptop says 50 minutes of battery left
[23:28] <seb128> but the laptop hardware battery started blinking
[23:28] <ccheney> well sorta, it lists not keybinding for regular fullscreen and ctrl-f11 for no border fullscreen
[23:29] <ccheney> s/not/no/
[23:29] <seb128> I guess it's not good sign for remaining power ;-)
[23:29] <seb128> oh, gpm just adjusted to 15 minutes great
[23:29] <seb128> let's say it's time to good to bed then
[23:29] <seb128> good night there
[23:29] <rickspencer3> g'night seb128
[23:29] <rickspencer3> ccheney, all I know is every app that has full screen uses F11
[23:30] <rickspencer3> so please, just change OOo to use F11 for full screen
[23:30] <ccheney> ok
[23:30] <rickspencer3> your users will love you for it
[23:30] <rickspencer3> they will throw flowers
[23:30] <rickspencer3> send you candy
[23:31] <rickspencer3> :)
[23:31] <ccheney> and the ones who have used OOo for more than a few times will complain that it changed...
[23:31] <ccheney> but yea i'll make it
[23:31] <ccheney> i was hoping to determine the status of regular F11 to argue for upstream to change also, so i can divert complaints to them after their next release :)
[23:31] <rickspencer3> no they won't
[23:32] <ccheney> users won't complain that OOo doesn't work the same on Ubuntu as everywhere else?  They ALREADY do that
[23:32] <rickspencer3> they'll be so happy that every time they are using OOo on their laptop and netbook and hit F11, it will go to full screen like they expected
[23:32] <ccheney> due to patches we have from ooo-build
[23:33] <mac_v> ccheney: its hard enough to maintain consistency within gnome  , now do we have to worry about other OS too ;)
[23:33] <rickspencer3> they must go crazy when they use NeoOffice
[23:33]  * ccheney isn't ignorant i know there will be complaints, but i will fix it to be consistent anyway, i think it will probably end up like dontzap, heh a few vocal people will dislike it but most people won't care or will like it
[23:34] <rickspencer3> if it turns out to be a huge mistake, we can roll back that change
[23:34] <ccheney> mac_v: yea its even worse than that since we have localized keybindings on some languages you can't use some gnome features such as direct unicode input
[23:34] <ccheney> mac_v: since they conflict with OOo keybinding for eg underline in German
[23:34] <mac_v> hrm... languages !   well i cant comment on that :)
[23:35] <ccheney> iirc its something like ctrl-shift-u for both
[23:37]  * ccheney is grepping to find what all needs changing
[23:40] <chrisccoulson> ah, seb128 has already gone. i've got an answer for his question
[23:43] <TheMuso> eeejay: Actually someone has filed a bug re that dotconf issue. In the short term, I will check the config file syntax for all files that get packaged and fix things up. Where did you find those double quotes you said you located?
[23:47] <rickspencer3> good morning robert_ancell
[23:48] <mac_v> rickspencer3: so the .txt file is not a papercut? right? if you post a comment , about the problems of the patch ... i could invalidate it :)
[23:48] <rickspencer3> mac_v, will do
[23:48] <rickspencer3> can you paste a link?
[23:48] <mac_v> thanks :) > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/425166
[23:51] <robert_ancell> hey rickspencer3
[23:55]  * ccheney thinks he found where to modify it, just a few hundred files to modify
[23:56] <ccheney> # modules * # langs
[23:56] <TheMuso> ccheney: ouch.
[23:56] <eeejay> TheMuso, I already have patches for both issues. how should we do this? pastebin?
[23:56] <TheMuso> eeejay: emailing them to me is fine, or pastebin. Whatever you prefer.
[23:57] <eeejay> TheMuso, excellent. I'll mail them
[23:57] <ccheney> hmm if what someone told me is accurate there are only 74 files, but that seems wrong :-\
[23:57] <TheMuso> eeejay: Thanks very much.
[23:58] <ccheney> cool it appears the issue is that hardly any languages are actually localized
[23:58]  * ccheney wonders how that works