[00:01] <bodhi_zazen> ready ?
[00:01] <bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
[00:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:01. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
[00:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[00:01] <bodhi_zazen> who is here for the meeting ?
[00:01] <swoody> o/
[00:01] <Silver_Fox_> o/
[00:02] <drs305> o/
[00:02] <Rocket2DMn> o/
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> do we have any new members ?
[00:02] <ibuclaw> i/
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> [LLINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:03] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: poke
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Meeting Times
[00:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Times
[00:04] <Silver_Fox_>  I think the time has been discussed in the mailing list for the last week and want to know what we are going to do.
[00:04] <Silver_Fox_> A few ideas were suggested,  lets vote on them
[00:04] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[00:04] <ibuclaw> Silver_Fox_, we did have the idea of a Eurasian Meeting not so long ago.
[00:05] <ibuclaw> I think discussion on that stagnated
[00:05] <Silver_Fox_> That was rejected as it had lack of interest.   Now the team has grown some more and it has been raised again by new people.
[00:05] <bodhi_zazen> I like the idea of alternate meeting times and I think we should try to accommodate them (alternate times)
[00:06] <Silver_Fox_> Can we not give it a trial?
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> The problem has been - lack of interest
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I would like to see all the people interested in such an alternate time:
[00:06] <Joeb454> I'd be happy to attend the later meeting and email logs to somebody to chair a more eurasian meeting time
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> meet and set a time
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> I will make my best effort to attend
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> I suggest we specify a single contact person to coordinate such meetings with me
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> so that we may review issues before and after such meetings
[00:07] <swoody> I would support an alternate time, so as many members can be a part of the processes that go on with the team
[00:07] <starcraftman> Salutations, I just arrived :)
[00:08] <swoody> as many members as possible**
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> who here is interested in setting an alternate time for meetings ?
[00:09] <Silver_Fox_> o/
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> And I really do not see asking those in the Americas to meet at off times
[00:09] <Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:09] <lukjad007> Hi
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_ and Joeb454 want to start coordinating meetings then ?
[00:10] <Silver_Fox_> I am happy to do so bodhi_zazen
[00:10] <Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: can do - the later meetings suit me better, so I can pass logs to Silver_Fox_ :)
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> I am fine with that and I do not think it involves the whole team until such a time as you two have enough interest to have such meetings
[00:10] <swoody> o/
[00:11] <bodhi_zazen> There is always an interest expressed, would be nice to see it come to fruition =)
[00:11] <ibuclaw> before you know it, we may branch off into two separate main groups ;)
[00:11] <ibuclaw> -beginners-eu and -beginners-us
[00:11] <ibuclaw> :P
[00:11] <Joeb454> lol
[00:11] <Silver_Fox_> This way it gets a chance.
[00:11] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED]Start alternate meetings, come to the team once it is starting to happen and again once it is happening =)
[00:11] <MootBot> AGREED received: Start alternate meetings, come to the team once it is starting to happen and again once it is happening =)
[00:11] <swoody> Now how would the voting work with two separate meeting times? Would we just tally all votes from both meetings before making a final decision?
[00:12] <ibuclaw> well ... that would depend on which meeting goes first
[00:12] <Silver_Fox_> We would vote on the same items.
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> swoody: you are putting the cart b4 the horse =)
[00:12] <swoody> bodhi_zazen, I'm just curious is all :)
[00:12] <swoody> didn't know if that had already been worked out
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> But yes, we would ideally have a coordination of votes
[00:13] <swoody> ok :)
[00:13] <bodhi_zazen> don't get me wrong, I think alternate meeting times would be awesome, we can share an agenda
[00:14] <starcraftman> sounds all good to me, more participation is always better.
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> it is just that up to now, although there has been interest, when the rubber hits the pavement alternate meeting times have not happened
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> Once they start to happen it *should* be trivial to coordinate
[00:14] <bodhi_zazen> any other comments on alternate meeting times ?
[00:15] <bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: you ready ?
[00:15] <Silver_Fox_> O/
[00:15] <bodhi_zazen> go Silver_Fox_
[00:15] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: I am, just been sitting quietly, I hope people glanced over my stuff in advance, it's mostly self-explanitory.
[00:15] <bodhi_zazen> as long as your comments are  [ON TOPOC] ; no need for o/
[00:15] <Silver_Fox_> Would this infact mean we are going down to once a fortnight meetings per whole team or not?
[00:16] <Silver_Fox_> Sorry,  once a month.
[00:16] <bodhi_zazen> I think once a month meetings are appropriate, in the long run once for the Americas and once for Euroasia
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> we can meet more often if needed
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] New Join Us Page
[00:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  New Join Us Page
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: has drafted a few pages
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> they look nice
[00:17] <starcraftman> Yup, took me some time, its all oriented to new members.
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> are people ready to change or do we need time for review / comments ?
[00:18] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: only thing I'
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox
[00:18] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox
[00:18] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: nvm that comment, darn enter key.
[00:19] <starcraftman> Anyway, thats the new join us page I wrote up. I think its an improvement to the old one that was a bit skimpy. It details all the basic steps new members usually need to go through, and is written from common questions I've gotten.
[00:20] <bodhi_zazen> comments ?
[00:20] <starcraftman> I basically just wanted feedback on anything should be improved, if everyone agrees they want to replace old one with it, then I will.
[00:20] <Rocket2DMn> That is a wealth of information man, but what a wall of text
[00:20]  * bodhi_zazen assumes most poeple are reading it for the first time =)
[00:20] <starcraftman> Also, wanted to know if there are any inactive mentors from masters list I should remove. Like say aj?
[00:20]  * ibuclaw is missing from the Masters column
[00:20] <lukjad007> starcraftman I skimmed it, and it looked good :)
[00:21] <Rocket2DMn> I think that can be slimmed down a fair amount, and some of the info can be spread to a couple of different pages on the our wiki area
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> aj should be removed until he is more active =)
[00:21] <ibuclaw> starcraftman, replace him with me ;)
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: are you interested in helping with that ?
[00:21] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: I guess I can agree, your wall of text is mostly directed at tell us about ya section eh?
[00:22] <Rocket2DMn> lol
[00:22] <Rocket2DMn> id be happy to help with it, though it may have to wait a couple of weeks
[00:22] <swoody> I'm +1 on the new page
[00:22] <bodhi_zazen> anybody else interested in helping with that page ?
[00:23] <swoody> it could be slimmed down a bit, but I think newcomers may find it nice to find all the pertinent info in one spot, too
[00:23] <ibuclaw> considering this was the old page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU
[00:23] <Rocket2DMn> I'm primarily concerned that all that information could be a bit overwhelming for new members
[00:23] <ibuclaw> +1 on new page
[00:23] <Rocket2DMn> that's why I said some of it can be spread around too
[00:23] <bodhi_zazen> [IDEA] Put new page in place, to be revised by interested parties over next month ?
[00:23] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Put new page in place, to be revised by interested parties over next month ?
[00:24] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn:I'll look into moving some of the wiki creation information to its own page, I get what your saying and I think I know how to improve.
[00:24] <Rocket2DMn> Perhaps like a summary page similar to what we have now with some of this new stuff added in, then a detailed page for reference
[00:24] <Rocket2DMn> That reference page can be as useful for us as new members.  It's good for new members to come and ask us quesions in here too, it generates good conversation
[00:25] <Rocket2DMn> and we can use it to help new users get integrated
[00:25] <Rocket2DMn> anyway, just my 2 cents, sounds like others like it
[00:25] <bodhi_zazen> [IDEA]Work on draft for next month ?
[00:25] <MootBot> IDEA received: Work on draft for next month ?
[00:25] <lukjad007> I like it, for one thing, it's comprehensive
[00:26] <swoody> +1 lukjad007
[00:26] <bodhi_zazen> if we go this second route, who is willing to work on it over the next month ?
[00:26] <Rocket2DMn> o/
[00:26] <swoody> it does cover almost everything a newcomer could ask, so I'm sure it'll come in very handy
[00:26] <lukjad007> I would be willing to help look it over :)
[00:26] <bodhi_zazen> vote ?
[00:26] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: I am, I think I get what Rocket2DMn is saying, I'll try and fix it up a bit. I got plenty of time, my classes still pretty lax.
[00:27] <swoody> I'm not much of a writer, but would be willing to lend my advice and opinions
[00:27] <drs305> I have no time this month but can help out next if it still needs work.
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Review document for next month ?
[00:27] <MootBot> Please vote on: Review document for next month ?.
[00:27] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:27] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:27] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: I like it as a comprehensive docuement
[00:27] <starcraftman> my idea, so guess I'm abstaining.
[00:27] <starcraftman> +0
[00:27] <Rocket2DMn> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> I do not want to see new members get too caught up, we need to assimilate them =)
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:27] <Rocket2DMn> you can vote on your own idea starcraftman :)
[00:27] <swoody> +1
[00:27] <drs305> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:28] <lukjad007> +41
[00:28] <lukjad007> +1
[00:28] <MootBot> +1 received from lukjad007. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
[00:28] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Maybe, but not really  needed, nobody seems to wanna vote down this idea :).
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:28] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
[00:28] <Rocket2DMn> cool, good work starcraftman , i can see you put a lot of work into it
[00:29] <swoody> yes, great work there starcraftman :)
[00:29] <bodhi_zazen> Home page template is a great idea.
[00:29] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: I try, once it's all in your head, just kinda flows out. :)
[00:29] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New Home Page Template
[00:29] <MootBot> New Topic: New Home Page Template
[00:29] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomepageBTTemplate
[00:29] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomepageBTTemplate
[00:29] <bodhi_zazen> I would suggest:
[00:29] <starcraftman> There it is, I built it off mine, suggestions welcome.
[00:30] <bodhi_zazen> 1. we include one or two additional examples for table lay out
[00:30] <bodhi_zazen> 2. Put it in /Beginners/WikiTemplates
[00:30] <bodhi_zazen> or some such
[00:30] <starcraftman> 2. That sounds good, I wasn't actually sure what to name it tbh.
[00:31] <bodhi_zazen> Suggestions for name ?
[00:31] <starcraftman> long as its in the create new page template list for new people.
[00:31] <swoody> +1 starcraftman
[00:31] <Rocket2DMn> I like that starcraftman , my only suggestion would be to cut out some of the text at the top, templates don't need full explanations of how to do everything
[00:32] <swoody> I don't think the name will have that drastic of an effect on it, as much as just having it available to use for newcomers
[00:32] <starcraftman> 1. Is fine also, I was actually looking at more than one template, Silver_Fox_'s is nice and different enough, some might prefer it.
[00:32] <starcraftman> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Silver_Fox
[00:32] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Silver_Fox
[00:33] <Silver_Fox_> Ah,  beat me to it.
[00:33] <Rocket2DMn> +1 starcraftman , i was just thinking about that, we can have a couple of different template options.  Obviously they would be similar, but since people come with different experiences, they can find templates that match them best
[00:33] <starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: Too slow :)
[00:33] <Silver_Fox_> sorry starcraftman,  I was discussing matters of great importance with a fellow team member
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> OK, how about we put the template in place and starcraftman or Silver_Fox_ (or anyone else) can add to it ?
[00:34] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: agreed, I'm only one person, I just made one for example this time. I guess I could template up anyones who volunteered theirs or they could themselves if available to do it.
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Put Wiki Home Page Template in place ?
[00:34] <MootBot> Please vote on: Put Wiki Home Page Template in place ?.
[00:34] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:34] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:34] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:34] <swoody> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> say /beginners/HomeTemplates
[00:34] <ibuclaw> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from ibuclaw. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:34] <starcraftman> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:34] <Rocket2DMn> +1 , location TBD
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:34] <st33med> +1
[00:34] <MootBot> +1 received from st33med. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:34] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen: I am more than happy to add to it sir. =]  I am getting quite good at wiki now.
[00:35] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: sure, though maybe call page HomeTemplate1 and number subsequent additions.
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> \o/
[00:35] <drs305> +1
[00:35] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> naw starcraftman
[00:35] <Rocket2DMn> I actually don't think the template necessarily needs to be inside our wiki area structure, it is a template available to anybody
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> we only need one page
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> with a few examples =)
[00:35] <swoody> We can always edit it in the future, as well. Add more tables/menus for people to be able to implement
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[00:35] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
[00:36] <Silver_Fox_> Wait starcraftman,  you think my wiki is good enough for a template?
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Membership
[00:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Membership
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret
[00:36] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> I agree we need to revitalize the membership process
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> I like the idea of having a few people "watching over" the process
[00:38] <starcraftman> Alright, last topic, I outlined proposal fairly clearly I think. MOTU do something similar, I also included nhandler's email for reference. I think it's half decent, and people can always just still jump on IRC and do things way we do now.
[00:39] <bodhi_zazen> we used to have a dedicated Education Team to do this, but the education FG kind of grew into the UCLP
[00:39] <bodhi_zazen> perhaps revamp a "Mentoring" team / FG ?
[00:40] <st33med> Nobody got that active in it
[00:40] <starcraftman> Shouldn't be too high maintenance once agreed on, already got swoody on board. When ml gets moved to new more public one we can use it for people to send in contact info, and quiz (if thats agreed on).
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> I like the quiz done "LIVE" on IRC
[00:41] <drs305> +1
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> How would it work with regards to the masters?
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> you get a better feel for people when they squirm
[00:41] <Rocket2DMn> +1 live quiz
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> if they submit written responses
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> 1. It takes more time
[00:41] <ibuclaw> 2. they can google it
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> 2. They can google and make themselves look good
[00:42] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: can do, its fairly short I suppose. Do people like the sample questions, I alternated between ones testing knowledge and ones checking interest.
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> I will look at your questions starcraftman
[00:42] <ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, it's like telephone interviews over *just* posting your CV :)
[00:43] <st33med> LIVE from #ubuntu-beginners, its bodhi_zazen and the contestant, <insert contestant here>
[00:43] <bodhi_zazen> How about if you revamp a "masters" FG or some such ?
[00:43] <starcraftman> st33med: lol
[00:43] <bodhi_zazen> people interested in assisting new members get up to speed ?
[00:44] <Silver_Fox_> As always I am willing.
[00:44] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: so, have all masters on master page and hand ful of them responsible for management and oversight?
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> should be low maintenance, but it would help if people watch it =)
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> +1 starcraftman
[00:44] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen ^
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> We can elect "management" next month ?
[00:45] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: righto, shouldn't be too hard. Would ya want a separate masters fg mail list in place? Or simply use same one we moving to with nhandler?
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> Which should get us to ...
[00:45]  * bodhi_zazen is a strong believer in the unified theory of mailing lists
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> we only need additional ML if the one we have gets too active
[00:46] <Rocket2DMn> mailing lists: old school still rulez!
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]NEW MEMBERS
[00:46] <MootBot> New Topic: NEW MEMBERS
[00:46] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: righto then
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> do we have anyone up for membership this month
[00:46] <st33med> YAYAYAYAYAYYAY
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> thanks for all that work starcraftman
[00:46] <Rocket2DMn> none listed bodhi_zazen , i find it hard to believe with so many in our channel
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> I think the whole team appreciates your time on those pages
[00:47] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: No worries, everyones welcome :)
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: we have been failing the new members
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> I was considering putting mine in for membership at the next meeting
[00:47] <Rocket2DMn> yeah bodhi_zazen , i know
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> pedor3005 ?
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> pedro3005 ?
[00:48] <ibuclaw> Hellow, meeting started 50 minutes ago ;)
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> any other last minute nominations ?
[00:48] <Hellow> haha
[00:48] <Hellow> I've been doing homework :P
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> Raidsong ?
[00:49] <starcraftman> lol Hellow
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> Pablo ?
[00:49] <Rocket2DMn> Silver_Fox_, is your padawan not ready?
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> anyone want to vote for anyone ? Second those nominations ?
[00:49] <Silver_Fox_> More or less Rocket2DMn
[00:49] <Silver_Fox_> He's just not here Rocket2DMn
[00:50] <Rocket2DMn> k, we should make a big effort to get lots of new members up for voting at the next meeting
[00:50] <bodhi_zazen> any other team business ?
[00:50] <Silver_Fox_> o/
[00:50] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_:
[00:50] <st33med> I
[00:50] <ibuclaw> o/
[00:51] <st33med> I'd like to make a motion...
[00:51] <st33med> (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^
[00:51] <Hellow> erm
[00:51] <Silver_Fox_> Well,  while we are here I would like to have the YNU FG's attention.  We need to arrange another meeting as the last one that was scheduled only I attended.
[00:51] <drs305> That's pretty focused, Silver_Fox_
[00:51] <Silver_Fox_> So pop by the channel #ubuntu-beginners-ynu
[00:51] <Silver_Fox_> Indeed.
[00:52] <st33med> YNU is...?
[00:52] <ibuclaw> Young New Users
[00:52] <Hellow> Young New Users
[00:52] <st33med> ah
[00:52] <ibuclaw> st33med, it was to help the main channel stay "child" free
[00:52] <ibuclaw> well ... just to help mature up the main channel a bit
[00:52] <starcraftman> ibuclaw: lol, like that'll ever happen.
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: I think interest in the YNY will wax and wane depending on maturity in the channel
[00:53] <st33med> What children are we talking about?
[00:53] <ibuclaw> starcraftman, before you came, it was needed at the time
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> you st33med =)
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:53] <swoody> +1 ibuclaw
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> ibuclaw: any topic you have
[00:53]  * Rocket2DMn will always be a child at heart
[00:53] <st33med> so 18 year olds count as children, eh?
[00:53] <st33med> :D
[00:53] <starcraftman> +1 Rocket2DMn
[00:53] <ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, yes
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> Rocket2DMn: Come join the team,  we have cake :)
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> st33med: Anything under 40 is but a child =)
[00:54] <Hellow> Rocket2DMn: And cookies.
[00:54] <starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: the cake is always a lie!
[00:54] <swoody> Silver_Fox_, ah, I'm there :)
[00:54] <ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, just a quick question. I know I ask this every so often ;)
[00:54] <jgoguen> st33med: I think bodhi_zazen counts as children sometimes ;)
[00:54] <ibuclaw> What is the current progress of the Ubuntu Learning Project?
[00:54] <Rocket2DMn> jgoguen, s/sometimes/most-of-the-time
[00:54] <jgoguen> Rocket2DMn: Fair :)
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> The UCLP is up and recruiting
[00:54] <ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, I may have some free time over the next fortnight.
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> come on bu #ubuntu-learning
[00:55] <Hellow> UCLP?
[00:55] <Rocket2DMn> I've seen you guys have meetings pretty regularly
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> we put some structure in place
[00:55] <Hellow> Ubuntu Community learning Project?
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
[00:55] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
[00:55] <st33med> Speaking of children, I once saw a person posting on how to make his ancient computer work with debian for his kid.
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> Any other topics ?
[00:55] <st33med> I thought it was nice
[00:55] <Hellow> o/
[00:55] <bodhi_zazen> go Hellow
[00:56] <st33med> gogogogogo
[00:56] <Hellow> I would just like to mention that we have a few team members running for Ubuntu membership tomorrow at the Americas board meeting.
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> w00t !!!
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> who ?
[00:57] <Hellow> I believe that they deserve our full support.
[00:57] <drs305> when?
[00:57] <Hellow> bodhi_zazen: nhasian and Wiebhalus (I always misspell that)
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> I thought the meeting was yesterday
[00:57] <starcraftman> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[00:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[00:57] <starcraftman> For those wondering who/when ^
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> thanks
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> other topics ?
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> 2 min left =)
[00:58]  * Hellow gets back to his homework
[00:59] <starcraftman> nope
[00:59] <bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
[00:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:59.
[00:59] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you all for everything
[00:59] <starcraftman> with 1 minute to spare!
[00:59] <Hellow> Sorry I was 50 minutes late :P
[00:59] <swoody> and thank you bodhi_zazen :)
[00:59] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: thanks for chairing as always.
[00:59] <swoody> and again, great work starcraftman :)
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> lol, you are too kind
[15:58]  * slangasek waves
[15:59] <evand> hi
[15:59] <cjwatson> hi
[16:00] <mvo> hello
[16:00] <robbiew> yo
[16:00] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 6 Deliverables
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 6 Deliverables
[16:01] <robbiew> mvo: software store...will we be done by next thursday?
[16:02] <robbiew> I suspect we will have UI changes post UI freeze :/
[16:02] <mvo> robbiew: I got a list of critical UI issues from mpt today, I'm working through it
[16:02] <robbiew> well
[16:02] <mvo> robbiew: I don't think we should brea UI freeze for it, we broke enough freezes already
[16:02] <robbiew> agreed
[16:03] <slangasek> breaking UI freeze isn't the end of the world, we just need to let the docs folks know it's happening
[16:04] <robbiew> true...but with this particular project...we need to enforce or changes will never stop
[16:04] <mvo> the current doc (in ubuntu-docs) referes to g-a-i so we need to make sure this gets updated anyway
[16:04] <robbiew> mvo: ivanka said she would have some folks help mpt
[16:04] <mvo> robbiew: that is good news
[16:04] <robbiew> with the UI stuff
[16:05] <mvo> with UI coding?
[16:05] <robbiew> heh
[16:05] <robbiew> they don't code
[16:05] <robbiew> lol
[16:05] <robbiew> I would have expected the DX team to implement their designs...not you
[16:05] <mvo> I'm not sure we need more UI spec changes at this point
[16:05]  * robbiew notes this for 10.04 ;)
[16:05] <mvo> :)
[16:06] <mvo> for 10.04 I will refuse to implement anything that was not speced by the spec-deadline (or discussed at uds)
[16:06] <robbiew> slangasek: we've done all we can with the Power Management stuff for this cycle...right?
[16:06] <doko> hi
[16:06] <robbiew> mvo: ack
[16:06] <robbiew> and +1
[16:07] <robbiew> doko: welcome back from holiday :)
[16:07] <slangasek> robbiew: effectively; there may be a couple more clean-up bits to pick up opportunistically, but no more major reorganization from here
[16:07] <robbiew> cool...I'm marking this done
[16:07] <robbiew> ;)
[16:07] <slangasek> there are still some acpi-support bugs that need fixed related to wireless hotkey handling, but I need the kernel fixed first before I can usefully test anything
[16:07] <robbiew> liw: janitor UI improvements...done?
[16:07] <robbiew> slangasek: ack..thanks
[16:08] <liw> robbiew, yes; I've just asked mvo to upload my latest, hopefully last changes, fixing some bugs (such as translation templates)
[16:08]  * mvo is getting the code as we speak
[16:08] <robbiew> liw: will CJ clean up my kernels in the official release? I noticed it wasn't doing that
[16:09] <robbiew> s/my/my old
[16:09] <liw> robbiew, alas, no, the heuristics have been weakened (it was that or removing skype)
[16:09] <robbiew> :/
[16:09] <robbiew> hmmm
[16:09] <robbiew> I'd prefer removing skype to be honest...the kernel cleanup was a big plus
[16:10] <robbiew> i know mdz preferred it
[16:10] <liw> I would've preferred that too, but the skype-wanters wore me down
[16:10] <robbiew> ugh
[16:10] <robbiew> can we change it back? or is it too late?
[16:10]  * robbiew will deal with skype-wanters
[16:10] <slangasek> wasn't there a way they were able to click to say "keep this package forever"?
[16:10] <robbiew> yeah
[16:11] <robbiew> that's what I did
[16:11] <liw> slangasek, yes, but people didn't use that, I guess
[16:11] <meanburrito920_> #xmonad
[16:11] <liw> robbiew, it's an easy change to revert, though
[16:11] <meanburrito920_> oops
[16:12] <robbiew> liw: let's revert
[16:12] <mterry> hi, sorry I'm late
[16:12]  * mvo will wait with the sponsoring in this case
[16:13] <liw> slangasek, are you ok with reverting the change? it means all packags not found in current apt repositires will be suggested for removel (hence, old kernels as well as skype)
[16:13] <cjwatson> is there a bug reference for kernels vs. skype? it seems that we ought to be able to have our cake and eat it somehow ...
[16:13] <slangasek> liw: as long as there's a clear way for users to say "keep this package and don't bug me about it again", yes
[16:14] <liw> slangasek, there is
[16:14] <cjwatson> even if it's by way of specific regexed exceptions or something
[16:14] <liw> cjwatson, just a minute
[16:14] <slangasek> cjwatson: it's the basic problem that once a package is no longer in the apt lists, we lose all information about its provenance
[16:14] <mvo> liw: we can blacklist some known stuff there (skype, acroread, google-earth)
[16:14] <slangasek> we can regexp it, sure
[16:14] <robbiew> yeah...just keep a list of exceptions
[16:14] <mvo> and for karmic+1 we should record it somewhere
[16:14] <liw> I've been reluctant to add regexps by default, but the mechanism should be there
[16:15] <liw> ok, so I'll bring back the skype killer and add the regexps
[16:15] <robbiew> thanks
[16:16] <robbiew> liw: guess you'll be needing an FFE ;)
[16:16] <liw> cjwatson, #285746 is the bug report
[16:17] <liw> if anyone can think of commonly used third-party programs, please tell me, so I can add them pre-emptively to the blacklist
[16:17] <cjwatson> IIRC, update-manager has an explicit list of things that used to be in the archive and are no longer
[16:17] <cjwatson> am I misremembering? because it sounds like that's really what you need
[16:18] <liw> iirc update-manager handles some specific no-longer-existing packages, but does not handle the generic case
[16:18] <liw> whereas janitor tries to handle the generic case
[16:18] <mvo> update-manager has a list of stuff that moved components, but it would be trivial to extend it to ta list of stuff that vanished
[16:19] <mvo> well, update-manager has a easy time, it checks what is obsolete before and after the update and keeps away from stuff that was obsolete before
[16:19] <liw> but I'm not sure how a complete list would help... either the package is still there, or it isn't
[16:19] <mvo> this is why it happyily cleans kernels, but leaves skype alone
[16:20]  * liw notes there was a time the janitor would remove _both_ all kernels and skype
[16:20] <liw> (which was the least good of all possible scenarios)
[16:20] <robbiew> heh
[16:21] <liw> anyway -- should we continue to the next topic?
[16:21] <robbiew> [ACTION] liw to modify janitor to remove kernels...and save the precious skype
[16:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  liw to modify janitor to remove kernels...and save the precious skype
[16:21] <robbiew> evand: slideshow is done, right?
[16:21] <robbiew> except for the firefox stuff
[16:22] <czajkowski> c
[16:22] <robbiew> or are we waiting on the design team
[16:22] <evand> robbiew: done
[16:22] <robbiew> suhweet
[16:22] <evand> it would be nice for them to help refine the design
[16:22] <evand> but we're still in a good place if they don't
[16:22] <robbiew> well...we've asked
[16:22] <evand> still need to sort the Firefox icon
[16:22] <robbiew> so have a response if a certain person says it's ugly ;)
[16:22] <evand> exactly :)
[16:23] <robbiew> thanks
[16:23] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 6 Bugs
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 6 Bugs
[16:24] <robbiew> is bug 353534 valid of update manager?
[16:24] <robbiew> fix released...nevermind :/
[16:24] <mvo> well, not quite
[16:24] <mvo> it should be fix commited
[16:24] <mvo> (and needs a bit more testing)
[16:25] <robbiew> so the kernel part is released
[16:25] <mvo> (the update-manager bit of it)
[16:25] <robbiew> but our part is not...ack
[16:25] <robbiew> thanks
[16:26] <robbiew> bug 386789
[16:26] <robbiew> heh...high?...maybe medium :P
[16:26] <cjwatson> not done yet, but still on my list
[16:26] <robbiew> cool
[16:26] <cjwatson> the whole timeout thing is a bit of a mess
[16:27] <cjwatson> I've been talking with the design and DX teams about ways to improve it
[16:27] <robbiew> yeah
[16:27] <cjwatson> I think we have something more or less workable, but Ivanka wants to run it past a few people
[16:27] <robbiew> saw that thread
[16:27] <Daviey> cjwatson: Is that something that could be added to upgrade-from-grub-legacy ?
[16:28] <robbiew> could we change the "Grub2 Loading" message to "Hit Shift for Grub Menu"?
[16:28] <cjwatson> robbiew: it doesn't appear for long enough to be worth it - it may make more sense to display it later (i.e. if you reboot, you can hold down shift ...)
[16:28] <cjwatson> Daviey: possibly, but it would be better for it to happen automatically on package installation
[16:29] <robbiew> heh...well on my eeePC900 it does...but the reboot may make more sense
[16:29] <Daviey> cjwatson: sure.
[16:30] <robbiew> cjwatson: would it be painful to change it anyway?  Just as an added measure
[16:30] <cjwatson> robbiew: it would, unfortunately - that bit's in assembly, and it's not printed as a single message
[16:31] <cjwatson> you get different bits printed if it fails in the middle of the assembly bootstrap
[16:31] <cjwatson> and there's only 512 bytes total to play with there, of which I think practically all are used
[16:31] <robbiew> yuk
[16:31] <robbiew> understand
[16:31] <cjwatson> boot sector code :-/
[16:31] <robbiew> moving on...
[16:32] <robbiew> is bug 422101 a mobile/arm issue...or something we need to own?
[16:32] <robbiew> heh...or both
[16:32] <cjwatson> I don't know, Oliver assigned it to himself so I assumed he was on top of it
[16:33] <robbiew> works for me
[16:33] <cjwatson> I don't think his analysis in comment #6 is correct ... but has he been asking about it?
[16:33] <robbiew> heh
[16:33] <robbiew> not to me...just noticed it as something we usually look after...initramfs
[16:34] <cjwatson> yeah, I'm sure we can look at it if asked, although it has a slight hardware-specific smell to me
[16:34] <RoAkSoAx> n el facebook
[16:34] <cjwatson> and certainly I haven't heard of it coming up on non-arm systems yet
[16:34] <robbiew> ack...I'm fine with having Oliver own
[16:35] <robbiew> and ask if needed
[16:36] <robbiew> bug 407428 needs an assignee
[16:36] <Keybuk> fixed upstream
[16:36] <robbiew> so kernel?
[16:36] <cjwatson> udev -> Keybuk
[16:37] <robbiew> ;)
[16:37] <Keybuk> no udev
[16:37] <cjwatson> ?
[16:37] <robbiew> yeah...I know...just wanted you to admit it
[16:37] <robbiew> lol
[16:37] <cjwatson> oh, right, reparsed :)
[16:38] <robbiew> anyone noticing suspend not working with the -10 kernel?
[16:39]  * robbiew has two netbooks that don't suspend anymore...and doubts keybuk's changes could have broken this (or at least hopes :P )
[16:39]  * cjwatson isn't on -10 yet
[16:39] <robbiew> no worries...will take it up with kernel folks
[16:39] <robbiew> moving on
[16:40] <Keybuk> robbiew: suspend works for me with my changes but -9
[16:40] <robbiew> yeah...I think it's a -10 issue
[16:40] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship queue
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship queue
[16:41] <cjwatson> *cough* I suck this week
[16:41] <robbiew> heh
[16:41] <liw> cjwatson, you level of suckiness is something mere mortals aspire to
[16:41] <robbiew> lol
[16:41] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
[16:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
[16:42]  * robbiew successfully built a source package and uploaded to his PPA
[16:42] <robbiew> whoohoo1
[16:42] <robbiew> whoohoo!
[16:42]  * mterry reviewed his first MIR
[16:42] <liw> robbiew, yay! mterry, yay!
[16:42] <Keybuk> I've so far had no reports of breakage from the ubuntu-boot PPA updates
[16:42] <Keybuk> *and*
[16:42] <slangasek> multiarch hasn't burned down my house yet
[16:43] <mterry> heh
[16:43] <Keybuk> we've finally isolated the long-standing "east of UTC with hardware clock in localtime" fsck bug and it's a bug in the ext3/4 filesystem code upstream! :D
[16:43] <robbiew> heh
[16:43] <robbiew> thank gawd!
[16:43] <robbiew> lol
[16:43] <mterry> :)
[16:43] <mvo> wehh :)
[16:43] <slangasek> hah
[16:43] <mterry> Oh, I'm applying for MOTU soon, so leave nice comments (if you've sponsored stuff) on my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mterry/MOTU
[16:43] <cjwatson> an admitted bug, too
[16:43] <liw> mterry, congratulations on that
[16:44] <mterry> liw, thanks!
[16:45] <Keybuk> cjwatson: oh, you wait
[16:45] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:45] <Keybuk> I'm looking forwards to reading the commit log
[16:45] <cjwatson> AOB:dpkg 1.15.4
[16:45] <Keybuk> I bet he finds *some* way to blame Ubuntu
[16:46] <robbiew> heh
[16:46] <Keybuk> e.g. "Ubuntu users tend to stupidly set the hardware clocks to localtime, which causes an issue with..."
[16:46] <cjwatson> due to debhelper changes and other similar things in Debian, we've accumulated a fair few packages depending on dpkg (>= 1.15.4) | install-info
[16:46] <mterry> Keybuk, what's the bug number?
[16:46] <cjwatson> i.e. basically a start on http://wiki.debian.org/Transitions/DpkgToGnuInstallInfo
[16:46] <Keybuk> mterry: seb128 never filed it ;)
[16:46] <cjwatson> dpkg 1.15.4 unfortunately has quite a few changes, but I don't think the world would end if I merged it into Karmic; does anyone feel strongly in the opposite direction?
[16:47] <Keybuk> cjwatson: oh, I started seeing bug reports a while back about install-info issues/incompatibilties
[16:47] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I blamed people installing texinfo
[16:47] <Keybuk> (but that'd imply the depends were wrong anyway, no?)
[16:47] <cjwatson> I think it might be easier to deal with them this way and fix up anything that goes wrong with dpkg, than to hunt-and-destroy all the install-info changes only to undo them all in karmic+1 again
[16:47] <cjwatson> I'm not entirely sure, I'm only tangentially aware of this particular transition
[16:48] <cjwatson> I think there were some known incompatibilities
[16:48] <slangasek> dpkg updates seem to be a mixed bag generally
[16:48] <slangasek> cjwatson: FFe bug if appropriate?
[16:48] <cjwatson> similarly, although maybe with a bit less difficulty attached, I was wondering if we should merge the new debhelper with Steve's dh_installinit/upstart changes
[16:48] <cjwatson> slangasek: sure, just wanted to ask here first
[16:49] <cjwatson> since if everybody hated the idea then I wouldn't bother
[16:49]  * slangasek nods
[16:49] <slangasek> dh_installinit would be nice... could cherry-pick that one if we want, too
[16:49] <cjwatson> we've been keeping fairly up to date with debhelper this cycle
[16:49] <slangasek> I have the patch to hand and stuff :)
[16:50] <cjwatson> the other changes seem straightforward
[16:50] <cjwatson> we're only three revisions back
[16:50] <slangasek> no objections, then
[16:50] <robbiew> any other other business?
[16:50] <cjwatson> the behaviour change of -a in 7.4.0 is the only really substantial one
[16:50] <Keybuk> cjwatson: err
[16:50] <Keybuk> please don't
[16:50] <cjwatson> Keybuk: no?
[16:50] <Keybuk> not to be mean to slangasek, but his dh_installinit was wrong
[16:50] <cjwatson> which one, dpkg or debhelper?
[16:51] <slangasek> huh?
[16:51] <Keybuk> the dh_installinit in the ubuntu-boot ppa does upstart right
[16:51] <cjwatson> can we get that pushed to Debian before anyone starts to depend on the one in 7.4.1, please?
[16:51] <Keybuk> it's not even in Ubuntu yet :)
[16:51] <cjwatson> yeah, but 7.4.1 is in Debian
[16:52] <Keybuk> sure, I'll send the updated version over as a bug
[16:52] <cjwatson> thanks
[16:53] <robbiew> anything else?
[16:53] <robbiew> once....
[16:53] <robbiew> twice....
[16:53] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
[16:53] <robbiew> thanks all!
[16:53] <mvo> thanks
[16:53] <mterry> ta
[16:53] <liw> thanks
[16:54] <Keybuk> cjwatson, slangasek: the differences being that you need custom Upstart maintainer script snippets, because invoke-rc.d/policy-rc.d don't work if your boot is native upstart or using insserv
[16:54] <Keybuk> (ie. Ubuntu or Debian respectively)
[16:54] <Keybuk> that you can't assume that for every Upstart job there was previously an init script with the same name
[16:54] <Keybuk> (many upstart jobs are new, or replaced udev rules, etc.)
[16:55] <Keybuk> and that when replacing an init script, it helps to check not only whether the md5sum of the old init script is different, but that it's not a symlink to upstart-job ;-)
[16:55] <Keybuk> because md5sum upstart-job != md5sum of whatever's in status ;)
[16:56]  * Keybuk started with what was in the debhelper bug in debian and fixed the bugs as he found them
[16:56] <Keybuk> I didn't realise it had actually gone *into* Debian yet
[16:56] <Keybuk> (when I started, the bug was still open)
[16:56] <slangasek> +               addsubstvar($package, "misc:Depends", "upstart (>= 0.6.0)");
[16:56] <slangasek> uhm
[16:56] <slangasek> what's that?
[16:56] <Keybuk> it's a dependency on another package
[16:56] <Keybuk> but that's not important right now
[16:57] <Keybuk> remember
[16:57] <Keybuk> we've had Upstart in ubuntu for quite a while
[16:57] <Keybuk> and the job format isn't compatible
[16:57] <Keybuk> and we've had packages that have shipped upstart jobs for a while
[16:57] <Keybuk> so we need a versioned-depends to ensure they match :)
[16:58] <slangasek> no, that dep is wrong, it violates the transition plan to force install of the upstart package
[16:58] <slangasek> the upstart-job virtual package is the only dep we should need
[16:58] <Keybuk> no
[16:58] <Keybuk> disagree strongly
[16:58] <slangasek> nothing was providing upstart-job before the job change
[16:58] <slangasek> you can disagree, but you're still wrong :)
[16:58] <Keybuk> upstart-job is only required if you're going to use upstart-job
[16:58] <Keybuk> if you're not using that compatibility wrapper
[16:59] <Keybuk> you only need to depend on upstart itself
[16:59] <slangasek> *everything* is using that compatibility wrapper
[16:59] <Keybuk> slangasek: you're wrong
[16:59] <slangasek> that's the transition plan
[16:59] <Keybuk> no it isn't
[16:59] <Keybuk> it might be Debian's, but it isn't ours
[17:00] <Keybuk> you only want compat symlinks in /etc/init.d for things that were *previously* in /etc/init.d
[17:00] <Keybuk> (so that if people try and run them, they get mentally adjusted by the output to tell them where they went wrong)
[17:00] <Keybuk> now, it's certainly arguable that the versioned dep should be in the } else { clause
[17:01] <Keybuk> ie. if --replace, then upstart-job, otherwise a versioned dep on upstart
[17:01] <Keybuk> and I'm not sure why I didn't just do that
[17:01] <Keybuk> but it's not true that you're *always* replacing an init script
[17:01] <Keybuk> as I've said repeatedly, sometimes you're replacing a udev rule
[17:01] <Keybuk> and sometimes you're replacing a line from inittab
[17:01] <Keybuk> (we don't have /etc/init.d/control-alt-delete -> /lib/init/upstart-job :p)
[17:02] <Keybuk> and sometimes it's a new job entirely that only makes sense in the upstart world
[17:02] <slangasek> hmm - I'm not sure dh_installinit should be responsible for installing such upstart jobs then
[17:02] <slangasek> which don't resemble init scripts at all
[17:03] <slangasek> or at least, --replace should be the /default/ behavior
[17:03] <Keybuk> they're still technically init conf files ;)
[17:03] <slangasek> heh
[17:03] <Keybuk> I think it does make sense for dh_installinit to remain as "install conf files for init"
[17:04] <Keybuk> am quite happy with the notion that --replace should be the default
[17:04] <Keybuk> it could be renamed to be something like:
[17:04] <Keybuk>   dh_installinit --upstart-native
[17:04] <Keybuk> or --upstart-only
[17:04] <Keybuk> perhaps
[17:04]  * slangasek nods
[17:05] <Keybuk> then if Upstart becomes the only init system, that just becomes a no-op
[17:05] <slangasek> right
[18:00]  * fader_ waves.
[18:00] <marjo> #startmeeting
[18:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is marjo.
[18:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:00] <marjo> Hi folks!
[18:00] <bdmurray> hi
[18:00] <pedro_> hello!
[18:00] <marjo> Thanks for joining us today.
[18:01] <marjo> Here's today's agenda
[18:01] <marjo> #
[18:01] <marjo> UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
[18:01] <marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie
[18:01] <marjo> Pedro?
[18:01] <pedro_> yeap
[18:01] <marjo> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Bug Day highlights
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Bug Day highlights
[18:02] <pedro_> the last Thursday we ran a bug day based on NetworkManager, ~147 bugs were triaged there
[18:02] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
[18:02] <pedro_> thanks a bunch to Kamus and Komputes for their work
[18:03] <pedro_> Tomorrow: we're having a Firefox-3.5 bug day
[18:03] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
[18:03] <marjo> [LINK]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
[18:03] <MootBot> LINK received:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
[18:03] <pedro_> to help the team to discover issues and triage bugs as well
[18:03] <pedro_> so if you wanna know a bit more about firefox and help the Ubuntu mozilla team, please join us
[18:04] <marjo> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
[18:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
[18:04] <pedro_> that's all from here
[18:05] <marjo> OK, thx
[18:05] <marjo> [TOPIC] SRU Testing - sbeattie
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU Testing - sbeattie
[18:05] <sbeattie> SRU Activity since 2009-09-02:
[18:05] <sbeattie> * Jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (clamav, linux) and 3 pushed to -updates (gnome-terminal, langpacks, sun-java6)
[18:05] <sbeattie> * Intrepid: 2 packages moved to -updates (clamav, nvidia-common)
[18:06] <sbeattie> * Hardy: 1 new package in -proposed (linux-ubuntu-modules) and 2 pushed to -updates (postgresql-common, sun-java6)
[18:06] <sbeattie> * Dapper: no activity
[18:06] <sbeattie> Martin Pitt also expired some packages out of the SRU queue that had sat for too long in the -proposed queue without any feedback.
[18:06] <sbeattie> Thanks to Imre Gergely,  Mikel Pascual Aldaba, Jim Evans, petski, Erik, GertjanVD, WaywardGeek, Earl Malmrose, Marcel de Vries, Rob Stone, Tom Gilissen, Stratus, toogreen, Ryan Tucker, and DenverSerrao for testing SRUs this week.
[18:07] <bdmurray> Were the expirations in universe?
[18:07] <sbeattie> bdmurray: they were a mix.
[18:07]  * sbeattie doesn't have the list off the top of my head.
[18:08] <marjo> sbeattie: anything else?
[18:08] <sbeattie> But I know there was an intel xorg driver from intrepid as well as an update-manager fix from intrepid (compensating for evms) that got pulled.
[18:08] <sbeattie> marjo: that's it, other than to say that assistance in testing proposed updates is always welcome.
[18:09] <marjo> ok, thx
[18:09] <marjo> Folks: are there any new topics you want to add?
[18:09]  * cr3 raises hand
[18:09] <marjo> cr3: go
[18:10] <cr3> Bug reporting in Checkbox
[18:10] <marjo> cr3: please
[18:10] <cr3> Thanks for your feedback folks, I have made the requested changes and pushed a new package yesterday which should land in the repository today
[18:11] <cr3> Following bdmurray's suggestion, we should now make sure that all the tests have corresponding packages defined in the requires field in test definitions
[18:11] <cr3> I will follow up with everyone for their assistance where there might be confusion about the relevant package for a given test
[18:12] <cr3> That's it, I really look forward to having quality bugs reported thanks to Checkbox.
[18:12] <bdmurray> Sounds great thanks cr3!
[18:12] <marjo> cr3: thx for getting that feature in
[18:12] <marjo> folks: anything else?
[18:12]  * ara raises hand
[18:13] <marjo> ara: go
[18:13] <ara> Mago is having a great momentum
[18:13] <marjo> [TOPIC] Mago
[18:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mago
[18:13] <ara> there are new contributions from the community
[18:14] <ara> I would like to thank new comers mikefletcher and jtatum, that are doing an amazing job
[18:14] <cr3> ara: out of curiosity, have you been running the trunk on karmic?
[18:14] <ara> To track the new stuff being implemented, I created a Roadmap page at http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
[18:14] <ara> cr3, not for every test, sorry
[18:14] <marjo> [LINK] http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
[18:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
[18:15] <ara> That's it from me
[18:15] <marjo> ara: thx for that update
[18:15] <marjo> folks: anything else?
[18:16]  * sbeattie just wants to mention that apport has finally been added to the default install ubuntu-server seed, so ubuntu-bug will be available by default on new server installs.
[18:16] <pedro_> \o/!
[18:16] <cr3> yay!
[18:16] <fader_> w00t
[18:17] <marjo> excellent!
[18:17] <cr3> sbeattie: wait a minute! there are no bugs on ubuntu-server!
[18:17] <sbeattie> cr3: of course. I just got it added out of completeness and a desire for bloat only.
[18:18] <marjo> folks: anything else
[18:18] <marjo> ?
[18:19] <marjo> on behalf of the QA team, i want to thank everyone who contributed to testing Karmic Alpha 5
[18:20] <marjo> Looking forward to good testing efforts and results on Alpha 6
[18:20] <marjo> if there's nothing else, we can adjourn
[18:21] <marjo> thx everyone; see you next week
[18:21] <marjo> #endmeeting
[18:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
[18:21] <sbeattie> woo, thanks!
[18:21] <pedro_> thanks
[18:21] <davmor2> thanks
[19:13] <mvo> sbeattie: anything you need from update-manager for xorg (I just saw that it came up in your meeting)?
[19:51] <pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435
[19:54] <pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435
[19:54] <pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2049&l=1359&u_id=363435
[21:34] <leogg> @schedule managua
[22:40] <MTecknology> apport notify-osd 426672
[22:40] <MTecknology> sorry
[22:58] <delphiexile> 3 min for the meet ??
[22:58] <pedro_> yeah
[23:00] <Grantbow> \o/
[23:00] <nixternal> linuxmen: you around? we will be processing your app
[23:00] <nixternal> lajjr: how about you?
[23:00] <Ursinha> good luck everyone
[23:00] <nixternal> AliTabuger7: you?
[23:00] <nixternal> stochastic: and you?
[23:00] <stochastic> yes
[23:00] <nixternal> jbernard_: and you?
[23:00] <Technoviking> #startmeeting
[23:00] <jbernard_> o/
[23:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is Technoviking.
[23:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:00] <linuxmen> yes
[23:00] <lajjr> hello.
[23:01] <AliTabuger7> I'm hwere
[23:01] <lajjr> yep here.
[23:01] <nixternal> ok, looks like Grantbow will go first...give us one second to make sure we have everything in order
[23:01] <nixternal> we will call your name when we are ready for you and ask you to provide us with a little introduction
[23:01] <DKcross> Hello guys, !
[23:02] <nhasian> whew i made it
[23:02] <fccf> Greetings! americas
[23:02] <Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[23:02] <Grantbow> I'm ready when you are.
[23:02] <nixternal> we will go in order, from top to bottom, from the list on that wiki page ^^
[23:03] <delphiexile> ok
[23:03] <DKcross> sure.
[23:03] <nixternal> if we call your name and you aren't here, you will get pushed to the bottom, and possibly miss out on the process...so stay sharp, stay awake, and lets get ready to rock-and-roll!
[23:04] <auro> hello everybody!
[23:06] <scott_ev> duanedesign: hey man
[23:06] <Technoviking> oubiwann you around?
[23:07] <nixternal> Technoviking: already did all of that :)
[23:07] <nixternal> Grantbow will be the first one on the list it seems
[23:07] <nixternal> if it doesn't tab complete, they aren't here :)
[23:07] <auro> im here to help translate Linuxmen's chat :)
[23:07] <Grantbow> introduction now?
[23:07] <auro> we are poor brazilian guys, so, be cool :)
[23:07] <nixternal> one sec Grantbow... Technoviking will start it off
[23:07] <Technoviking> Grantbow: seize the day:)
[23:08] <Grantbow> Hi, I'm Grant Bowman.  I'm a member of the California LoCo.  My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grantbow
[23:08] <nixternal> Technoviking: moobot!
[23:08] <Grantbow> I'm not sure what else to lead with as much of it is on the wiki page.  I've been using Linux since 1994 and been active with Ubuntu for over a year now.
[23:09] <Grantbow> I was previously with SuSE in Oakland from 1999-2001.  Can I answer any questions?
[23:09] <nixternal> Grantbow: seems you are quite the community person...what issues do you see with the community at this time, and how can we go about making it better?
[23:10] <Grantbow> Many of the issues I face in California are the standard ones of Linux adoption in general.
[23:10] <Grantbow> There's a very vibrant Linux community in the SF Bay Area but our LoCo hasn't reached all of them yet.
[23:10] <Grantbow> I'm working on that.
[23:11] <Grantbow> The team will be going for approval Tuesday the 15th.
[23:11] <ScottK> Any interest in branching out beyond community and advocacy work?
[23:11] <Grantbow> I do code when I have to, but I often find solutions exist already.
[23:12] <Grantbow> My community efforts keep me busy right now.
[23:13] <Grantbow> I am hoping to help others contribute which is where I think I can do the most overall good for Ubuntu right now.
[23:13] <boredandblogging> Grantbow: on your application, you say you want to help junior volunteers, can you elaborate on that?
[23:13] <Grantbow> California is a bit odd.
[23:13] <Grantbow> There's a huge Linux community but not a large Ubuntu focused community.
[23:13] <nixternal> Grantbow: what does gaining Ubuntu membership mean to you? And by becoming a member, how can that benefit yourself as well as the greater community?
[23:14] <Grantbow> I'll answer boredandbloggin first.
[23:14] <nixternal> groovy
[23:15] <Grantbow> I think that if people knew about the opportunities to contribute they would step up.  It's about educating.  I hope that answers your question.
[23:16] <Grantbow> nixternal: With or without membership I'll keep advocating Ubuntu.  The benefits will be helpful in further my activities.
[23:17] <Grantbow> nixternal: As I have met more of the active US national folks involved with Ubuntu I am looking for other ways to contribute as well.
[23:18] <Grantbow> anything else?
[23:18] <nixternal> Grantbow: seems you have a great list of testimonials from a bunch of amazing people...anyone here that hasn't given a testimonial for Grantbow feel like stepping up and speaking out?
[23:18] <DWonderly> I would...
[23:18]  * nixternal thinks the entire community left a testimonial already :)
[23:18] <fccf> I would..
[23:18] <nixternal> DWonderly: groovy, the floors is yours
[23:18] <nixternal> fccf: same for you
[23:19] <nixternal> DWonderly and fccf: what would you like to add?
[23:20] <DWonderly> Grant has taken me under his wing in the Cal LoCo. Been very very helpful when I went through my annoying N00B days and continues to help any time of day or night. I have not had the pleasure of a face to face meeting but Grant treats everyone with respect and give you that feeling of brotherhood. The Ubuntu Community could only be better with Grant
[23:20] <fccf> Grantbow has done an amazing job in helping to facilitate information sharing within the CaliforniaTeam, especially on IRC, and as I understand it is very helpful in bringing new and interesting ideas to the table... He has even helped me a couple of times in #ubuntu
[23:20] <Yasumoto_> I already left a testimonial, but I'd like to add a \m/  during the meeting
[23:21] <Grantbow> thanks guys.
[23:21] <Grantbow> of the testimonials on the page the existing Ubuntu Members I believe are akgraner, itnet7, Nathan Haines and jono.
[23:21] <nixternal> groovy, thanks guys
[23:23] <jono> Grantbow, I certainly support you in your application
[23:23] <nixternal> jono: you don't count!
[23:23] <nixternal> ;p
[23:23] <nhaines> ha!
[23:23] <Grantbow> jono: tyvm :-)
[23:23] <boredandblogging> lets vote
[23:23] <nixternal> man, they are coming out of the woodwork...lets vote!
[23:23]  * nixternal +1
[23:24] <boredandblogging> +1
[23:24] <cody-somerville> +1
[23:24] <MTecknology> I thought you guys used [VOTE]..
[23:24] <nixternal> MTecknology: some silly dude messed that one up :p
[23:24] <Technoviking> +1
[23:24] <nixternal> speak of the devil
[23:24] <boredandblogging> lol
[23:24] <pedro_> +1
[23:24] <Technoviking> congrats sirs
[23:24] <nixternal> groovy! CONGRATS GRANT!!! WELCOME TO UBUNTU!
[23:25]  * stochastic has to leave at 23:30 for work, but is 5th on the list.  Seeing how long the first one is taking, he's getting worried...
[23:25] <Grantbow> thank you very much
[23:25] <nixternal> linuxmen: you will be up in one second... Technoviking will call your name
[23:25] <lajjr> congraz grant
[23:25] <Yasumoto_> epic :) congrats, dude
[23:25] <nhaines> Congratulations, Grant.
[23:25] <auro> Linuxmen: Technoviking irá lhe chamar.
[23:25] <Technoviking>  
[23:26] <Technoviking> linuxmen your up
[23:26] <nixternal> hey guys, I believe linuxmen will have a translator... pedro_ you can probably help a bit too :p
[23:26] <linuxmen> YES
[23:26] <nixternal> err, that was supposed to be a smiley
[23:26] <auro> nixternal: txs!
[23:26] <nixternal> auro: you are the translator right?
[23:26] <nixternal> his very own Rosetta :)
[23:26] <auro> nixternal: yes
[23:26] <DKcross> :D Congrats! Grantbow
[23:26] <auro> linuxmen will write in portuguese and i will try to make you understand :D
[23:26] <auro> hahahahahaha
[23:27] <pedro_> nixternal: well i only need to learn portuguese in 2 minutes ;-)
[23:27] <nixternal> pedro_: you can lean it quicker than I!
[23:27] <nixternal> the closes I come is swearing, and ordering more beer :)
[23:27] <nixternal> closest*
[23:28] <pedro_> haha
[23:28] <auro> pedro: is as simple as chinese or russian, i think
[23:28] <auro> :)
[23:28] <AliTabuge> did I miss anything? webchat.freenode.net quit out on me.
[23:28] <linuxmen> só sei de uma coisa. I LOVE UBUNTU, UBUNTU IS MY LIFE
[23:29] <Technoviking> linuxmen, please tell us about yourself, and post your wiki and LP page
[23:29] <linuxmen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Christiano%28Linuxmen%29
[23:29] <linuxmen> https://launchpad.net/~christiano
[23:29] <auro> linuxmen: fale um pouco sobre voce e poste suas paginas do wiki e do launchpad
[23:30] <linuxmen> Meu nome é Christiano, faço parte da comunidade brasileira desde 1996 e em 2005 faço parte da comunidade Ubuntu
[23:31] <linuxmen> Venho fomentando, palestrando, divulgando e fazendo o trabalho de vendedor Avon desde então....
[23:31] <Technoviking> linuxmen: What do you do as the admin of the Ubuntu Games team?
[23:31] <auro> my name is Christiano, im am part of brazilian's linux community since 1996, and part of Ubuntu community since 2005.
[23:32] <linuxmen> Atualmento sou fundador do Loco Team Ubuntu São Paulo e profissionalmente sou Analista de Suporte em soluções open sources
[23:32] <AndreNoel> linuxmen is one of the first Ubuntu advocators in Brazil
[23:32] <auro> since always i am speaking and advocating about ubuntu, like AVON salesman (door to door)
[23:33] <auro> linuxmen: o que voce faz como administrador do Ubuntu Games?
[23:33] <Technoviking> linuxmen: Were you involved in the excellent video of recording traditonal Brazilian music with Ubuntu from a couple of years ago
[23:33] <nixternal> ahh, that was an awesome video... i so gotta get down to Brazil one of these day
[23:34] <Pretto> nixternal, hehhehhehe
[23:34] <linuxmen> Ajude a manter o site, sou mantenedor de alguns fóruns e a parte principal é divulgação do projeto e fomentar pessoas para ajudar com o projeto em si (programação, designer)
[23:34] <auro> i am founder of Sao Paulo Loco Team, and professionally i work as an Open Source Support Analyst
[23:34] <nixternal> heh, like me...he went to school for business and came out a geek!
[23:35] <auro> Linuxmen: voce esteve envolvido, ha alguns anos atras, na excelente gravacao de video do Ubuntu com musica brasileira?
[23:36] <linuxmen> Sim yes
[23:36] <auro> Linuxmen: nixternal disse: que ótimo video, descerei ao Brasil qualquer dia desses :)
[23:37] <auro> linuxmen helps to mantain the ubuntu games website, as well some forums. it's main goal is advocate the Ubuntu Games project, and make people help with design and programming.
[23:38] <auro> ok guys, go on!
[23:38] <AndreNoel> linuxmen and carlos donizete (coringao) do a great job with Ubuntu Games
[23:39] <nixternal> linuxmen: do you have any plans on bridging out in the community, such as translations, packaging (I noticed debs for Ubuntu Games), bug triage, and such?
[23:39] <pedro_> linuxmen: in your wiki page you said that you're part of the Sao Paolo LoCo team and founder of that, so i'm wondering how's the relationship between that loco team and the Brazilian one (Ubuntu-BR)?
[23:40]  * auro and linuxmen are in a conference call to improve speed in translation
[23:41] <AndreNoel> Ubuntu-BR has regional teams on brazilian states, and Ubuntu Sao Paulo is a very good team
[23:41] <auro> Linuxmen are doing only beta testing and bug triage, because he does not have much programming knowledge.
[23:41] <auro> btw, he is always asking people to help in such activities.
[23:42] <Ursinha> auro, bug triage? ubuntu's you mean?
[23:42] <nixternal> linuxmen: have you faced any difficulties or issues with the LoCo team, Ubuntu Games, or other projects you have worked on, and if so, how did you go about resolving them?
[23:42] <Ursinha> I see no karma in LP, but I may be wrong
[23:43] <nixternal> I don't either, already looked
[23:43] <boredandblogging> linuxmen: have you organized any LoCo activities?
[23:43] <auro> Pedro_: We have an excellent relationship along these years, developing sinergy to help other brazilian loco teams in a organized way.
[23:44] <nixternal> linuxmen: how have the communications between yourself, the SP LoCo, and the Brazilian Council gone? Has there been any problems, and if so, were they resolved and how?
[23:44] <auro> Ursinha: Yes, ubuntu bugs and alpha/beta releases like Karmic.
[23:44] <Ursinha> auro, but why there's no record of that in LP?
[23:44] <MTecknology> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~christiano/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INVALID&field.status%3Alist=WONTFIX&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=FIXRELEASED&field.importanc
[23:44] <MTecknology> That was long - sorry
[23:44] <Pretto> Ubuntu-SP is sticking together Ubuntu-br  a few months ago, he claimed that was this way due to problems with ubuntu-br members.. so we are trying to glue all loco tems together
[23:44] <Ursinha> is the karma borked again? :)
[23:45] <MTecknology> http://tinyurl.com/linuxmen-bugs
[23:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://tinyurl.com/linuxmen-bugs
[23:45] <MTecknology> Ursinha: no
[23:45] <Ursinha> MTecknology, I see him as subscriber of that bugs, did I miss something?
[23:45] <auro> nixternal: there was a problem with webhosting in Ubuntu Games, and it was solved with Linuxmen offering such service.
[23:46] <pedro_> linuxmen: I'd love to have more help from my Brazilian friends on the BugSquad, but you don't seems to be doing triage there, in which products do you work on?
[23:46] <MTecknology> Ursinha: no - I just checked why there's no karma - sorry
[23:46] <pedro_> linuxmen: and where are you tracking the testing you've been doing for karmic, would be nice to know that as well ;-)
[23:46] <auro> Usrinha: Linuxmen do bug triage and testing in Coringao's packages, not right into launchpad.
[23:47] <Ursinha> auro, so it's a different thing than what you meant :)
[23:47] <Ursinha> not ubuntu bugs
[23:48] <Ursinha> MTecknology, actually I just wanted to know if I was really missing something :P
[23:48] <Pretto> Ursinha, worried about bugs on LP :D hehhehhehe
[23:49] <auro> pedro_: Linuxmen is actually working only on advocating Ubuntu and helping community members.
[23:49] <nixternal> is there anyone in here that hasn't left a testimonial for linuxmen around that would like to say a few words before we go to a vote?
[23:50] <AndreNoel> i support him and left a testimonial
[23:50] <auro> Ursinha: is a little bit different, i agree. But there is various and serious efforts to help the community.
[23:50] <Pretto> nixternal, we are trying to keep him together with ubuntu-br, he was apart for a long time
[23:51] <nixternal> linuxmen: why were you apart from Ubuntu BR for a long time?
[23:53] <Technoviking> linuxmen???
[23:53] <auro> nixternal: Linuxmen always helped Ubuntu-BR, but he is foccused on the Ubuntu-SP efforts, because is a very large region.
[23:53] <nixternal> groovy
[23:53] <AndreNoel> sao paulo has the size of an european country
[23:54] <auro> Recently the Ubuntu-SP coordination was given to Kemel, in that way Linuxmen will have some extra time to help the community in general, including UBuntu-BR again.
[23:54] <nixternal> nice, that is good to hear
[23:54] <nixternal> anyone else have any comments or testimonials?
[23:54] <auro> i will make a testimonial: I have met Linuxmen since 2 or 3 months.
[23:55] <auro> he came to mi house and is a very nice human being.
[23:55] <auro> i call him now "the Ubuntu's Steve Balmer" :D
[23:55] <nixternal> oh no
[23:56] <AndreNoel> hehehehe
[23:56] <Andre_Gondim> lol
[23:56] <auro> hehehe
[23:56] <auro> Nixternal: he talks a lot, and is pretty much convincent!
[23:56] <Technoviking> It think we are ready to vote
[23:56] <nixternal> hehe
[23:56]  * nixternal +1
[23:57] <AndreNoel> :)
[23:57] <auro> thank you guys!
[23:57] <boredandblogging> -1, I need to see more community work
[23:57] <auro> good luck / boa sorte Linuxmen!
[23:58] <Technoviking> -1 from me, while you have done some great work for your loco, I would like to to see a community work outside your loco
[23:58] <AndreNoel> boredandblogging: he works very much out of web
[23:58] <cody-somerville> +0
[23:58] <pedro_> -1 from here, I'd like to see communication with the Ubuntu-BR as a whole and more work there as well
[23:58] <delphiexile> +1 ; he deservs to be an ubuntu membre
[23:59] <AndreNoel> he is always present on events
[23:59] <AndreNoel> giving workshops
[23:59] <AndreNoel> teaching and advocating
[23:59] <Andre_Gondim> it's truth, I saw him at FISL working to Ubuntu-BR