[00:00] <boredandblogging> then his approval application should reflect it
[00:00] <boredandblogging> there is no list of any community activities
[00:00] <boredandblogging> all vague statements
[00:00] <auro> Pedro_: The Ubuntu-SP have a huge volume of people, is virtually impossibile be focused on Ubuntu-BR either. We have a continental country.
[00:00] <Technoviking> linuxmen: 3 againist , 1 for, one neutral, We would like to see you try again in a couple of months
[00:00] <nixternal> NOTE: Please be ready when you are called. When questioned, try to respond as quick as possible. time is running out :(
[00:01] <stochastic> Technoviking, nixternal: Both lajjr and AliTabuger7_ have agreed (in a private chat) to allow me to go next as I have to leave at 23:30 for work and will otherwise not be around for my evaluation.  I didn't realize each person would take 30mins.  Is this okay with the board?
[00:01] <nixternal> lajjr and AliTabuge: you don't mind that stochastic goes next?
[00:01] <lajjr> Yes I did agree..if allowed.
[00:01] <nixternal> rock on
[00:01] <AliTabuger7_> I'm ok with it since he does have to be somewhere
[00:01] <nixternal> that is totally groovy, thanks guys for letting him go
[00:01] <stochastic> Thank you both for the very kind gesture
[00:01] <Technoviking> we only have time for 1 or maybe 2 more people
[00:01] <stochastic> I owe you each a beer/coffe/tea
[00:01] <lajjr> np
[00:02] <AliTabuger7_> As long as I get to go still, whatever.
[00:02] <nixternal> stochastic: go ahead and introduce yourself...trying to push this a bit quicker so we can get some more in
[00:02] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: yes, you will get to go, we will not leave you hanging
[00:02] <auro> thank you guys!
[00:02] <stochastic> Hi I'm Eric Hedekar https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EricHedekar
[00:02] <stochastic> https://launchpad.net/~stochastic
[00:03] <stochastic> I'm a member of the Ubuntu Studio development team, a moderator for UbuntuForums.org (just in the Multimedia Production section), and a general advocate of Ubuntu
[00:03] <Technoviking> hold a sec, we lost a board member due to battery issues
[00:04] <stochastic> shall I repeat when pedro returns?
[00:05] <stochastic> Pedro???
[00:05] <nixternal> stochastic: continue on, 4 == quorum so we have that
[00:05] <Technoviking> stochastic: go ahead
[00:06]  * nixternal read "I'm a musician (with a BFA from STFU)"
[00:06]  * nixternal wants to go to that university
[00:06] <stochastic> I've steadily been getting more familiar with the Ubuntu contribution mechanism and have plans to grow my packaging list even larger in 10.04
[00:07] <nixternal> stochastic: I see you like to package, any plans for Universe Contributors, MOTU, or Core Developer in the near future?
[00:07] <nixternal> You should at least apply for Universe Contrib imho
[00:07] <stochastic> nixternal, yes I'd love to be a MOTU eventually
[00:07] <stochastic> this is the first step for me
[00:07] <nixternal> you seem to be well on your way there...your packages look good :)
[00:07] <nixternal> so do your boogs
[00:08] <stochastic> boogs?
[00:08] <nixternal> any plans on contributing to the greater Ubuntu project outside of Ubuntu Studio? Is there anything in Ubuntu Studio community wise you would like to see in ubuntu or vice versa?
[00:08] <nixternal> bugs :)
[00:08] <stochastic> I have a blog on open source audio at http://greyrockstudio.blogspot.com and I'm getting more and more active in the Vancouver LoCo
[00:08] <Technoviking> stochastic: How do you plan to fix pulse audio:)
[00:09] <stochastic> Technoviking, with hard determined bug fixing...
[00:09] <stochastic> or with a sledgehammer
[00:10] <stochastic> my next goal is to help get the Jack audio server into main so that firewire audio cards can integrate with desktop audio
[00:10] <stochastic> and integrate with Pulse Audio
[00:10] <nixternal> you aren't from the Burgers.... here is a goal for you and the LoCo Team. Aaron Seigo (aseigo on IRC) is one of the KDE leaders...get him to join the team and you are golden :p
[00:10] <Technoviking> you talk about being a mod in the multimedia area, but you have not done much on the forums since April
[00:10] <nixternal> stochastic: are you working with Daniel Chen (dtchen or crimsun on IRC) with Pulse Audio?
[00:10]  * stochastic looks up Aaron Seigo
[00:11] <nixternal> he just moved to Vancouver
[00:11] <stochastic> Technoviking? I'm on the forums almost everyday
[00:11] <nixternal> ScottK: you think he can get aseigo to join the loco? :D
[00:12] <ScottK> ;-)
[00:12] <ScottK> IIRC he uses opensuse.
[00:12] <Technoviking> stochastic: sorry about that, just found a forum bug
[00:12] <Technoviking> :)
[00:12] <stochastic> nixternal, I'm only starting to get familiar with Pulse Audio, my main knowledge speciality is ProAudio
[00:13] <nixternal> good testimonials...anyone here that would like to say anything further on stochastic?
[00:13] <TheMuso> stochastic has been a great contributor to UbuntuStudio in recent times, both with bug fixes, package additions, and helping to move things like jack/ffado into main.
[00:14] <fccf> stochastic is good at explaining things on ubuntuforums .. used his notes many times
[00:14] <nixternal> oh no, you actually got TheMuso to speak up....trouble :)
[00:14] <TheMuso> stochastic also managed to get several new packages into the Ubuntu archive, which are now shipped as part of UbuntuStudio./
[00:14] <nixternal> TheMuso: how come you haven't pushed him to us over in MOTU land yet :)
[00:14] <Technoviking> +1 here, great forums work and fanatastic work in universe
[00:14]  * nixternal +1
[00:15] <TheMuso> nixternal: I wasn't aware whether he was doing other things in the community, and I haven't had time to read his wiki page to find out.
[00:15] <boredandblogging> +1
[00:15] <nixternal> stochastic: seriously, start your universe contribs application, and then in the next couple of months, about the beginning of Karmic+1, go for MOTU!
[00:15] <stochastic> I'm on my way to MOTU...
[00:15]  * stochastic starts walking there right now.
[00:15] <TheMuso> Bare in mind archive reorg is coming.
[00:15] <nixternal> stochastic: haha
[00:15] <nixternal> TheMuso: I heard that 2 years ago :p
[00:16] <nixternal> ya, we are gearing up for that already in the MC
[00:16] <TheMuso> nixternal: read the tech board minutes, and I think you'll find thigns are moving along.
[00:16] <nixternal> yup, and we are starting to discuss it in MC on where and how to move forward
[00:16] <cody-somerville> +1
[00:16]  * nixternal is excited (kind of, I know it will be a ton of work)
[00:16] <TheMuso> ok
[00:16] <delphiexile> +1
[00:16] <nixternal> CONGRATS stochastic and WELCOME TO UBUNTU!
[00:17] <lajjr> congratz stochastic
[00:17] <stochastic> Thank you all, and once again, thanks to lajjr and AliTabuger
[00:17] <TheMuso> stochastic: Congrats!
[00:17] <lajjr> np.
[00:17] <lajjr> Be safe.
[00:17] <delphiexile> congratulation stochastic
[00:17] <AliTabuger7_> Have fun at work
[00:17] <DKcross> congrats stochastic
[00:18] <MTecknology> lajjr!
[00:18] <nixternal> lajjr: you are next, please introduce yourself
[00:18] <lajjr> ok..
[00:18] <lajjr> My name is Leo Jackson I have started off with Ubuntu Dapper Drake 6.04 I was giving it a try, I continue to use it and changed to different versions while working at starting a new aspect of my Company. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lajjr https://launchpad.net/~lajjr
[00:18] <lajjr> I changed to 7+ then 8+ and now I have Ubuntu Jaunty 9.04 on my system. I started to try to help with Items I like. Art, Graphics etc. I enjoy Inkscape so I start answering some questions. I start to do some answers in Ubuntu and bugs.
[00:18] <lajjr> I continue to add groups and start doing bugs. I also tried my hand out at packaging. Now I am at a road I want to do more so I am trying to mentor some and I added Ubuntu to my servers. I also test the new version now being Karmic.
[00:18] <lajjr> I will try to work toward being MOTU, Ubuntu Developer, Bug Control, and kill bug #1
[00:18] <TheMuso> good luck to those who remain. I gotta go.
[00:19] <lajjr> I will be help mentor some to.
[00:20] <lajjr> I am a programmer in my company.
[00:20] <MTecknology> Can I make a shout out for him right away?
[00:21] <lajjr> if allowed.
[00:22] <Technoviking> MTecknology: go ahead
[00:22] <MTecknology> Probably reading your profile atm..
[00:22] <MTecknology> ok
[00:22] <MTecknology> lajjr has been helping me learn how to triage bug lately. He also intends to teach me how to package for the motu. In addition to this, he plans to help me learn how to work with the Linux kernel for the kernel team. Considering he is on the kernel team and active in packaging and bug control, I feel he is extremely qualified to help tutor me. If you know anything about the Ubuntu-Drupal team, he's been active in developing a 
[00:22] <MTecknology> As far as devoting himself to the community, I haven't seen many members go beyond his level. He's been an exceptional addition to every team I've seen him in. lajjr has been helping me learn how to triage bug lately. He also intends to teach me how to package for the motu. In addition to this, he plans to help me learn how to work with the Linux kernel for the kernel team.
[00:22] <MTecknology> Considering he is on the kernel team and active in packaging and bug control, I feel he is extremely qualified to help tutor me. If you know anything about the Ubuntu-Drupal team, he's been active in developing a Planet module for Drupal which will mimic PlanetPlanet. As far as devoting himself to the community, I haven't seen many members go beyond his level. He's been an exceptional addition to every team I've seen him in.
[00:22] <MTecknology> I can't see him being anything other than a shining model of what an Ubuntu member should be. One thing I've noticed is that he doesn't like to take credit for his own work. He's prefer to let a team take credit for the work he's done. This shows me that he really is devoted to working as a community member and contributing to a whole rather than getting credit for his own work. This is an ideal example of "The Spirit of Ubunt
[00:22] <MTecknology> hopefully none cut off
[00:23] <lajjr> I try to help more then do my own lol..
[00:23] <lajjr> Ubuntu was cut..
[00:24] <lajjr> Thank you MTecknology
[00:24] <MTecknology> lajjr: np - all honesty
[00:25] <nixternal> lajjr: I see you are intending on joining MOTU, but do not see your name on the list 'MOTU/Council/Meeting' or the MC Mailing List....if you go for MOTU, you also get Ubuntu Membership...you didn't need to become a member first :)
[00:26] <lajjr> I would like to take some packages to their under me before doing that.
[00:26] <nixternal> also, you might want to have packages uploaded to Universe before applying for MOTU, as all I see are packages in your PPA...do you plan on getting packages into Universe?
[00:26] <Technoviking> lajjr: You seem to be a member on alot of LP teams, what areas interests you most and where do you want to contribute to Ubuntu most?
[00:26] <lajjr> Yes. I do..I paln  on getting as many packages in as possible.
[00:27] <nixternal> what is up with all of the languages on your LP page?
[00:27] <lajjr> well I took Lang art in college I was a translator for a court and airport for 5 years.
[00:28] <nixternal> I see you are a member of Kubuntu bugs, a team in which I am a part of...what have you done for that team and what are your future plans for that team?
[00:29] <lajjr> well I joined in hope to help get KDE package in I test the packages I create. I want to help make it work for all desktops.
[00:30] <lajjr> So I like the gnome but my wife is KDE so I want to make it possible for her to help and contribute.
[00:30] <nixternal> ahh, now I know why your nick was familiar, you helped me with a drupal issue a few months back
[00:30] <MTecknology> He's been teaching more than just me to manage bugs
[00:31] <lajjr> The area that intrest me is graphics and programming.
[00:31] <lajjr> yep a bit back.
[00:32] <lajjr> yes I try to help and simplify any problems to new comers My company has 37 persons going to get on to launchpad I hope soon..
[00:32] <nixternal> lajjr: any difficulties or issues you have experienced in the community and if so any ideas on how to fix them so they don't happen in the future?
[00:32] <lajjr> John on my wiki i only one of them.
[00:33] <nixternal> lajjr: are you afraid that you might be biting off a bit more than you can chew? You are taking on a lot of tasks in LP
[00:33] <lajjr> well not difficulties to say but a clash of style maybe way to deal with issues..
[00:34] <nixternal> one task I just looked at was Apport, in which your last comment was in June, and you set it in progress. I worked on the KDE front end for apport, how has working on apport gone for you?
[00:34] <lajjr> no I will have some of my people take some once I help them get a better hang of things..
[00:34] <lajjr> I like it Pitti is great.
[00:35] <lajjr> I had a death in my family it kill a lot of time I am still getting some problems from a person problem from that.
[00:36] <MTecknology> nixternal: From what I've seen, he seems to handle it very well. Which surprised me - I couldn't handle what's on his plate
[00:37] <nixternal> I am ready to vote
[00:37] <nixternal> everyone other RMB person ready?
[00:37] <boredandblogging> i'm ready
[00:37] <Technoviking> ready
[00:37]  * kirkland has to run, but I wanna give jbernard_ my +1 and two thumbs up; my testimonial is in his wiki page
[00:37] <MTecknology> [VOTE] lajjr for membership - even though I don't control the meeting
[00:37] <MootBot> MTecknology, Only the meeting chair can do that
[00:37] <nixternal> I am going to give a +1 because the work you have done has been solid..great testimonials...though I would say be careful biting off more than you can chew, and having all of that on your wiki and LP page look like you are trying to add fluff to make it look better...be careful
[00:37] <Technoviking> [VOTE] lajjr for membership
[00:37] <MootBot> Please vote on:  lajjr for membership.
[00:37] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:37] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:38] <nixternal> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:38] <Technoviking> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:38] <nixternal> now you figure out how to work the thing
[00:38] <boredandblogging> -1
[00:38] <MootBot> -1 received from boredandblogging. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:38] <Technoviking> cody-somerville???
[00:39] <cody-somerville> +0
[00:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from cody-somerville. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:39] <Technoviking> [vote] end
[00:39] <MTecknology> kirkland: said +1
[00:39] <MootBot> Technoviking, Either there isn't a meeting in progress, or there is already an active vote.
[00:40] <nixternal> OK, so we have 2 for, 1 against, and 1 obstaining...that means there was no quorum unfortunately, which also means you didn't make it this time around...however I encourage you to come back, probably our next meeting with a little bit more refined wiki page to help us out a bit
[00:40] <MTecknology> did his count?
[00:40] <Technoviking> MTecknology: he is not a RMB board member
[00:40] <nixternal> no, only RMB members...Dustin is a solar loving maniac :P
[00:40] <lajjr> ok thanks..
[00:41] <nixternal> #endvote
[00:41] <MTecknology> boredandblogging: Any chance you could explain why you don't approve?
[00:41] <nixternal> Technoviking: ^^
[00:41] <nixternal> #endvote
[00:41] <Technoviking> #endvote
[00:41] <boredandblogging> there is a lot of stuff on the wiki page, but none of it in depth
[00:41] <boredandblogging> think spread too thin
[00:42] <nixternal> [ENDVOTE}
[00:42] <nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
[00:42] <Technoviking> [ENDVOTE]
[00:42] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
[00:42] <lajjr> ok..end vote.
[00:42] <nixternal> it is one of those
[00:42] <nixternal> there we go
[00:42] <Technoviking> I'm sorry folks, but I need to go.
[00:42] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: you are up...gotta do this quick, as Technoviking has a mad wife waiting for him :)
[00:43] <nixternal> argh
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> Hi, I'm Evan Boldt. I've been the main developer for SpreadUbuntu project for about a year now, and it has almost earned the official spreadubuntu.com domain name. The site is currently viewable on my host (http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/).
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> I have personally spread ubuntu at my university by putting up posters, and when appropriate, helping them install it on their computer. I have personally installed ubuntu on at least 8 of other's computers (I wasn't really keeping track until recently).
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> While I plan to continue my dedication to SpreadUbuntu, I also hope to help develop some of the applications that make Ubuntu great. I've been teaching myself by writting unique scripts in Python. I'm also taking classes in C++, since I am a computer science major.
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> Ubuntu membership, to me, is an honorary thing: a way to be recognized for hard, loyal work.
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> I work most closely with Ruben Romero. Unfortunatly he couldn't make it to the meeting, but he did leave a testimonial.
[00:43] <Technoviking> AliTabuglast one
[00:43] <AliTabuger7_> I'll be quick to respond to your questions.
[00:45] <boredandblogging> AliTabuger7_: are you just waiting on canonical for the domain?
[00:45] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: we know you rock out the Spread Ubuntu..and for that there is entire group of people who are grateful, now with that said, here we go :)  Any plans on coming out of the marketing arena?
[00:45] <AliTabuger7_> yes
[00:45] <AliTabuger7_> yes
[00:45] <nixternal> damn, you are in my LoCo dude...have we met yet?
[00:45] <nixternal> I started and run Ubuntu Chicago :)
[00:45] <Technoviking> pleia2 is stepping in for me, I'm telling the meeting is ending, but not really
[00:46] <AliTabuger7_> I'm not in a loco, i don't think. I am in the chicago area, so I probably did join that group.
[00:46] <Technoviking> #endmeeting
[00:46] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:46.
[00:46] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: where at are you?
[00:46] <AliTabuger7_> We are only waiting on canonical. They have yet to give us any feedback on whether they will give it to us or not.
[00:46] <AliTabuger7_> I do hope to become a developer eventually, and I am actively working on improving my skills
[00:46] <Technoviking> The end is still continuing:) sorry about that
[00:46] <ScottK> Waiting for what?
[00:46] <AliTabuger7_> DeKalb. I go to NIU.
[00:47] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: rock on, I just east of St. charles...I ride my bike out by you :)
[00:47] <AliTabuger7_> Waiting for Canonical to direct the SpreadUbuntu.com domain.
[00:47]  * nixternal almost finished his Masters at NIU
[00:47] <AliTabuger7_> I'm also contemplating starting back up the NIU LUG. I'm not sure about that yet though. It doesn't seem productive enough for me.
[00:48] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: if we (Ubuntu Chicago) get the Ubuntu Global Jam rocking in the city, you down on coming out? join us in #ubuntu-chicago - we can continue it there later :)
[00:48] <AliTabuger7_> I'd definitely want to go.
[00:49] <nixternal> groovy
[00:49] <AliTabuger7_> I'd also like to point out that there is a lot of hidden complexity behind SpreadUbuntu that I'm responsible for. You don't often see a site that is that good at multilingual interfaces & content for that reason.
[00:50] <pleia2> +1 from me, amazing project work, like most locos we use SpreadUbuntu for Ubuntu Pennsylvania - many thanks! :)
[00:51] <boredandblogging> +1
[00:51] <AliTabuger7_> SpreadUbuntu is extremely popular in France (more so than the america's combined). It really does have a global impact.
[00:51] <AliTabuger7_> Thanks!
[00:51] <nixternal> +1 - ya dude, keep spread ubuntu rocking...and now that I know you are local, we gotta get everyone together dude, have you present it to Ubuntu Chicago, and maybe even the Chicago LUG, as this type of project can also help non-Ubuntu open source projects which totally rocks!
[00:52]  * nixternal remembers when he worked on the original spread ubuntu in like 2005....jeesh what a headache that was
[00:52] <AliTabuger7_> Yah. I actually talked with a GNOME guy who was looking at adopting our framework. He has yet to make his final decision.
[00:53] <nixternal> cody-somerville: wanna vote?
[00:53] <nixternal> I won't hold talking to a GNOME guy against ya :p
[00:53] <cody-somerville> +1 :)
[00:53]  * nixternal notes that cody-somerville needs to take a break from some code
[00:54] <AliTabuger7_> It was the guy that runs Phoronix. And we use GNOME, so of course you wouldn't.
[00:54] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: CONGRATS AND WELCOME!
[00:54] <fccf> When is the next Americas Board meeting?
[00:54] <nixternal> fccf: we are going to talk about that after this meeting...I would like to do it very soon so we can clear our list
[00:54] <pleia2> fccf: two weeks from tonight, same time
[00:54] <nixternal> oh, there you go
[00:54] <pleia2> hopefully :)
[00:54] <nixternal> I didn't even know that one :)
[00:54] <tenach> I apologize for not making the meeting sooner :(
[00:54] <fccf> pleia2: TY
[00:55] <pleia2> we'll update the wiki with the date soon
[00:55] <AliTabuger7_> Great! So, i'm a little confused as to what I have to do now...
[00:55] <nhasian> tenach, i was wondering where you disappeared to
[00:55] <tenach> I'm in the middle of moving and lost track of time.
[00:55] <nhasian> tenach, they didnt get through the entire list of member applications so there will be another meeting in two weeks
[00:56] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: I just did it, I added you to the "Ubuntu Members" launchpad team
[00:56] <nixternal> within the next few days you should have a new email address <lp_id>@ubuntu.com
[00:56] <nixternal> AliTabuger7_: join #ubuntu-chicago so we and others can chat in a bit
[00:57] <boredandblogging> meeting over
[00:57] <pleia2> right, so we need to wrap up the meeting
[00:58] <DKcross> nixternal,  no more for today?
[00:58] <boredandblogging> we'll schedule another one soon
[01:00] <nixternal> DKcross: not today unfortunately...today we were hopign to get all of the August people done, but we had members who had to leave or face certain death
[01:00] <tatica1> hahahaha
[01:01] <nixternal> in 2 weeks...we will have another meeting... jbernard_ will be first and you will follow
[01:01] <DKcross> ok:)
[01:01] <fccf> question about quorum ... LP shows 9 active members... how can 4 be a quorum?
[01:01] <nhasian> aight see you guys in about two weeks
[01:02] <nixternal> err, actually nhasian will follow jbernard_ and then you DKcross and then fccf...make sure you guys are ready, so we can bombard you fast and heavy
[01:03] <fccf> nixternal: bring it on ... see ya in 2 weeks
[01:03] <nixternal> oooh, I like a challenge :)
[01:03] <nhasian> nixternal, this is the 2nd time i got bumped.  so third time is the charm :)
[01:03] <nixternal> nhasian: did you readd your app to the wiki? cuz it says Sep. 5th
[01:04] <nhasian> nixternal, yeah originally i added it several months ago.  i just readded it recently
[01:05] <nixternal> ahhh, OK, we will have to make sure we fit you in then :p
[01:08] <DKcross> ok friends, the i will wait the new date for the meet
[01:17] <fccf> AliTabuger7_: Is your B-day 8/21/89 ... I am exactly 10 years your senior
[01:18] <AliTabuger7_> nice
[01:18] <fccf> Cool to know
[15:00] <huats> dholbach, nxvl hello
[15:00] <dholbach> hiya
[15:00] <dholbach> do we have porthose here too?
[15:00] <huats> charlie is not here yet
[15:01] <huats> we might consider to wait for him a bit...
[15:07] <huats> hey porthose
[15:07] <huats> :)
[15:07] <huats> we were waiting for you to start :
[15:07] <huats> :)
[15:07] <porthose> hey huates
[15:07] <huats> nxvl: around too ?
[15:07] <porthose> sorry I'm late
[15:08] <dholbach> hi guys
[15:08] <porthose> hey dholbach
[15:08] <huats> porthose: not a problem..
[15:08] <huats> seems like nxvl is idleing :)
[15:14] <dholbach> porthose, huats: let's just get going - nxvl can catch up when he arrives
[15:14] <dholbach> can you maybe sum up what the current state of MOTU Mentoring is?
[15:15] <huats> sure
[15:15] <huats> nxvl: may I ?
[15:15] <huats> sorry porthose: may I start ?
[15:15] <porthose> huats, please do
[15:16] <huats> ok
[15:16] <huats> so the mentoring has received quite a lot of demands in the last few months
[15:16] <huats> (I would say of mentor requet)
[15:16] <huats> request
[15:17] <huats> and it has started to be quite complicated to be able to match all the demands with a corresponding mentor
[15:17] <dholbach> do you have any numbers? like how many current mentors, how many mentees, how many people on the waiting list?
[15:17] <huats> dholbach  I can out that during the meeting
[15:17] <dholbach> no worries - I just wanted to get a feeling for what's happening
[15:17] <huats> I can find out during the meeting (is the corect phrase to read)
[15:18] <huats> :)
[15:18] <huats> the thing is that since it was more complicated to match a mentor/mentee
[15:18] <huats> it started to become more time consuming
[15:19] <huats> and we have started to be a little overwhelmed I think
[15:19] <huats> due also to our various other involvments
[15:19]  * porthose agrees
[15:19] <huats> (I am trying to be as neutral and fair as I can)
[15:19] <dholbach> sure
[15:20] <huats> I have tried to fill the gap for some time
[15:20] <huats> porthose did it also after me
[15:20] <huats> nxvl has been a little less involved for some time
[15:20] <dholbach> I guess we're always going to need more mentors, we're always going to have more people looking for a mentor, etc.
[15:20] <huats> (it is just the result of a discussion we had together)
[15:20] <dholbach> what do you think is the best help we give new folks who need help?
[15:21] <huats> I do think thet we might first start to reorganize ourself
[15:21] <huats> currently when we receive a request there is nothing done...
[15:21] <dholbach> right
[15:22] <huats> I do think that putting that on a real queue might help us
[15:22] <huats> I am saying that here for the first time (without ever mentionning that to porthose or nxvl)
[15:22] <huats> we should consider to add that waiting list in bzr (like we do so far)
[15:23] <dholbach> so you think there's nothing really wrong right now, it's just the reception that needs to change organisation?
[15:23] <huats> currently the only trackig of the waiting list is the "starred" email in my gmail account on the label "mentoring-reception"
[15:23] <dholbach> and maybe a call for more mentors and some fresh blood in the reception?
[15:23] <huats> it is not enought
[15:23] <huats> I have done regular calls for mentors
[15:23] <huats> without any luck (or very few)
[15:24] <huats> it might be great to ask new motus to be involved in that (throught the MC)
[15:24] <porthose> mentors are always needed, but yes some additional help with receiption would be nice
[15:24] <dholbach> I wonder if we could identify what help new folks need and if we maybe can find a way to help them more easily?
[15:24] <huats> actually I am a bit uneased with the addition of new blood to the reception
[15:24] <huats> I have to say
[15:24] <huats> I mean
[15:25] <huats> we are lacking some organisation so far
[15:25] <huats> and I fear that if we add new people it might be worst...
[15:25] <huats> I do think that new blood might be needed indeed but AFTER a reorganisation of our team work
[15:26] <huats> I know nxvl is planning to help out more right now, and we'll decide of his involvment in the next few months after giving a look at his capability t be involved more
[15:26] <dholbach> right now I'm thinking: maybe we can categorise ways in which new folks need help and try to solve those problems differently to get the workload down for current mentors
[15:27] <dholbach> like for example reenergise the motu-mentors list
[15:27] <dholbach> or boosting the on-call review idea somewhat (ubuntu-devel@ discussion right now)
[15:27] <dholbach> so people can always ask their questions
[15:27] <dholbach> and always get their stuff reviewed
[15:28] <dholbach> there's surely going to be some remaining open questions or requests for help, but it might be less than it is right now
[15:28] <dholbach> nxvl, porthose, huats: do you think that makes sense?
[15:28] <huats> it is true that we might consider that #ubuntu-motu is sometimes quite similar to questions we should encounter on @ubuntu-mentors
[15:29] <porthose> it would surely help
[15:30] <huats> actually I have some ideas to improve the mentoring program too... or at least so things / way to do  / needs to be done
[15:30] <dholbach> maybe for people who now get on the waiting list, we could tell them about the other current initiatives to they don't feel like they are blocked at the moment
[15:30] <huats> porthose: did you had a lot of answer on your email aboutthe status of mentees ?
[15:30] <huats> dholbach you are right
[15:30] <huats> clearly
[15:31] <porthose> I think four mentors responded
[15:31] <huats> it is really few
[15:31] <huats> ...
[15:31] <porthose> and one was a request to be removed from the list
[15:32] <dholbach> I have similar experiences with questions I asked regularly or mails that are sent regularly
[15:32] <dholbach> there must be a better way of finding out what we're after :)
[15:32] <huats> I do think that currently we (as the reception) have a lack of communication with mentors/mentee
[15:32] <huats> may be we should define a new way of intreacting
[15:33] <huats> like : asking regular reports from the mentee (like one every 2 weeks) and only 2reports of the mentors
[15:33] <huats> something brief
[15:33] <dholbach> people don't like writing reports :)
[15:33] <huats> but it might help to keep a link
[15:34]  * dholbach nods
[15:34] <huats> I am saying that in order to try to limit the burnout
[15:34] <dholbach> right
[15:35] <huats> we (receptionninst) also might need to meet up regulary like we did...
[15:35] <huats> porthose: agree ?
[15:35] <porthose> yes
[15:35]  * huats is really sorry for his really bad writing today (worst that ever)
[15:35] <huats> ok
[15:36] <huats> here are some actions we might have :
[15:36] <huats> try to find out new wa of interacting
[15:36] <huats> reorganisation of the reception (queue, meeting)
[15:37] <huats> announce future mentees to try to find out other actions to do during the process of their application
[15:37] <ScottK> Personally I have no idea where mentors are ineracting with their mentees.  It doesn't seem to be much on #ubuntu-motu.
[15:37] <dholbach> the feeling I get at the moment is that the mentoring doesn't really scale very well - I don't think we ever announced it publicly (like in blogs or something), but as there seems to be demand for help I feel a bit like we should think about how we can provide help more easily
[15:38] <huats> ScottK usually mentors / mentee are doing a close relationship
[15:38] <ScottK> I'd like to suggest they get encouraged to discuss stuff there (that also gets mentees used to interacting with more than their mentors)
[15:38] <ScottK> huats: Doesn't mean they can't talk in public.
[15:38] <huats> I really agree
[15:38] <ScottK> When they do so, the people that just watch the channel can learn too
[15:39] <dholbach> I could imagine that parts of it is email
[15:39] <huats> we should emphasize that : the mentors/mentee relationship should be string but not exclusive
[15:39] <huats> ...
[15:39] <ScottK> Also when mentors give bad advice, there are people there to give a quality check.
[15:39] <ScottK> So maybe mentors learn too
[15:39] <porthose> true
[15:40] <huats> dholbach I do think that the various sessions that happened lately should be great for mentees...
[15:40] <ScottK> It also helps build a sense of community
[15:41] <dholbach> huats: right, that too
[15:41] <huats> mentees should be more than encourage to attend that
[15:42] <huats> it would down the load of the mentors
[15:42] <dholbach> what do you think about doing a survey with the current mentees and ask them what kind of help they need, what kind of questions they have and what needs to be better?
[15:43] <huats> dholbachsounds great
[15:43] <huats> I also think  it might be great to write a mentor HowTo...
[15:44] <huats> to help mentors to deal with the mentoring is a way to lower their load and to share the experience : using of @ubuntu-mentors, using of #ubuntu-motu instead of private chat
[15:44] <dholbach> that would give us ideas for what we can improve, so there should be less need for mentors and less work for everybody
[15:44] <huats> ad things like that
[15:44] <dholbach> *nod*
[15:44] <huats> ok
[15:44] <dholbach> the reviews on irc and stuff
[15:44] <huats> exactly
[15:44] <huats> reviews are great for mentors
[15:45] <huats> mentees sorry
[15:45] <dholbach> I'm happy to help with that survey
[15:45] <huats> (well mentors too :))
[15:45] <huats> ok
[15:45] <huats> thanks daniel
[15:45] <dholbach> and also with some kind of short description of the initiatives we're offering, the docs we have and stuff
[15:45] <ScottK> dholbach: Just to mention it, these are all the same reasons I don't like the idea of a separate channel for reviews.
[15:45] <dholbach> I could imagine that'd help a lot
[15:45] <huats> ACTION : Dholbach to tackle the survey to mentors to know their opinion
[15:46] <dholbach> huats: help with it - not do it alone ;-)
[15:46] <dholbach> huats: I'll send over an email after the meeting
[15:46] <huats> oh I misread :)
[15:46] <huats> sorry :)
[15:46] <huats> ok
[15:46] <dholbach> ScottK: I think we can have that discussion separately - I'm just waiting for input from more folks now and think we can try either option and see how it works
[15:46] <huats> porthose: can you work on the survey with daniel ?
[15:46] <ScottK> dholbach: That's fine.  I just wanted to mention that I thought there was commonality in the reasons.
[15:47] <porthose> huats, I should be able to
[15:47] <huats> I willbe happy to write the mentors HowTo and to propose a new organisation of the reception
[15:47] <dholbach> ScottK: what do you mean? I'm not sure I understood the last sentence
[15:47] <huats> (of course I am saying that as I will write stuffs to be approved...)
[15:48] <dholbach> I'll add it to my todo list and send to all of you
[15:48] <ScottK> dholbach: I think that the reasons why it's not a great idea for mentor/mentee discussions to happen off the main channel are similar to why I think reviews off the main channel aren't a good idea.  That's all.
[15:48] <dholbach> and then we can see what we think needs to be improved or better documented or announce or something :)
[15:48] <huats> dholbach I agree
[15:48] <huats> I add to my TODO list too...
[15:49] <dholbach> ScottK: ok
[15:49] <huats> I do think many new mentors might be interested in joining if e can provide a mentors HowTo
[15:50] <huats> (new mentors are usually a bit freaked about doing wrong stuffs)
[15:50] <dholbach> that's probably something we can discuss very well on one of the mailing lists
[15:50] <nxvl> sorry, i get to much into my code and didn't check the hour
[15:50] <huats> indeed
[15:50] <huats> no problem nxvl
[15:51]  * nxvl reads scroll
[15:51] <huats> we have a  full list of actions for you :)
[15:51] <huats> :D
[15:51] <porthose> another problem I see is that receptions never get contacted when a mentee goes MIA
[15:52] <dholbach> that's probably all I have for now: the survey to identify areas that relieve the mentors somewhat and some better documentation for people who might not find a mentor or be on the waiting list
[15:53] <huats> MIA ?
[15:53] <dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$ wtf mia
[15:53] <dholbach> MIA: missing in action
[15:53] <dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$
[15:53] <huats> ok :)
[15:53] <nxvl> or Miami Airport
[15:54] <nxvl> :D
[15:54] <porthose> hahaha
[15:54] <huats> indeed
[15:54] <huats> porthose: it is something to be put on the mentors HowTo
[15:55] <porthose> cool
[15:56] <nxvl> i also remembered to suggest to have some guidelines for metors
[15:56] <nxvl> mentors
[15:56] <nxvl> as in the steps to guide their mentees trough
[15:56] <nxvl> as in "first teach X, then teach Y, then Z" and so on
[15:57] <nxvl> just to have as a guide to know what should the mentee know after the programme
[15:57] <huats> nxvl: have you backloggued the whole stuffs ?
[15:57] <huats> :P
[15:57] <Riddell> is this channel being used in the next hour?
[15:58] <huats> Riddell: no idea
[15:58] <huats> Riddell: do you have a meeting here ?
[15:58] <Riddell> we hope to but we can move to #kubuntu-devel if there's already one ongoing
[15:59] <nxvl> huats: nope, just go trough quickly
[15:59] <porthose> huats, if there is nothing else I have some appointments I need keep
[15:59] <huats> Riddell: I think we are almost good
[16:00] <huats> nxvl: because I was supposed to send a mentors HowTo (well to write one at least)
[16:00] <huats> porthose: sure I think we are good
[16:00] <huats> dholbach ?
[16:00] <huats> anything to add ?
[16:02] <dholbach> no, as I said above - that's all I have for now
[16:02] <huats> ok
[16:02] <huats> great
[16:02] <huats> then I think we are good
[16:02] <huats> I will send an email with a date for a future meeting date...
[16:02] <Riddell> apachelogger, seele, JontheEchidna, Nightrose, rgreening: council ping
[16:03] <huats> to see how far we have been able to work one :)
[16:03] <seele> Riddell: pong
[16:03] <Nightrose> o/
[16:03] <apachelogger> hullos
[16:03] <JontheEchidna> o/
[16:03] <huats> good meeting ninjas !
[16:03] <huats> :)
[16:03] <rgreening> pang
[16:03] <Riddell> thanks all for coming for what was not a very well publicised meeting
[16:04] <Riddell> agenda as ever is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[16:04] <Riddell> I don't think we have anyone for membership?
[16:05] <Riddell> first agenda item is from me
[16:05] <Riddell> I'd like to propose we include the message indicator in Kubuntu by default
[16:05] <Riddell> I find it very useful and a large improvement on what went before
[16:05] <apachelogger> isn't it in already?
[16:05] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: yes, for testing
[16:05] <Riddell> yes but thus far only for testing and feedback
[16:05] <rgreening> by include, you mean what exactly?
[16:06] <Riddell> rgreening: in the default plasma setup
[16:06] <seele> what happens after v2 when they change the purpose of the indicator? will there be an option to remove it in karmic +1 if necessary?
[16:06] <rgreening> so, every user has it on by default?
[16:06] <Riddell> rgreening: every new install, probably not upgrades
[16:06] <rgreening> I think that's not what we talked about and agreed to at UDS.
[16:06] <seele> rgreening: i thought it was the notifications that was discussed at uds, not the indicator
[16:07] <Riddell> seele: we can indeed.  better of course if we make sure we poke agateau and others to have v2 do what we want it to
[16:07] <rgreening> as it's still very experimental and in development. I wouldn't be happy with it on by default (at this point)
[16:07] <seele> Riddell: that would mean a fork from the ayatana project which doesnt sound reasonable
[16:07] <rgreening> hmm... I was thinking it was the whole Ayatana project scope seele
[16:07]  * ScottK waves
[16:08] <Riddell> rgreening: I wouldn't describe it as experimental and in development, as I say it works well.  agateau?
[16:08] <yuriy> i haven't seen the MI yet but I don't see why i wouldn't be default
[16:08] <agateau> Works fine for me
[16:08] <ScottK> My recollection is at UDS we discussed having it present by default, but not enabling KDE apps to use it by default
[16:09] <Riddell> yuriy: see this blog post for a summary http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4043
[16:09]  * Nightrose is very happy with the way notifications are handled in plasma right now tbh
[16:09] <rgreening> ScottK: present, as in in the taskbar or present on the CD and installed
[16:09] <ScottK> rgreening: If there are no messages, it should be invisible, so what's the difference?
[16:09] <yuriy> Riddell: yes i saw that, i mean i havent seen it in action
[16:10] <agateau> Nightrose: this is about indicators, not notifications
[16:10] <Riddell> ScottK: that's not how it currently works, there's no hidden mode
[16:10] <ScottK> The idea was (as I wrote to the ML yesterday), if one is using something like pidgin that unconditionally expects MI, then it ought to just work.
[16:10] <rgreening> ScottK: does the "invisible" work now?
[16:10] <ScottK> Apparently not.
[16:10] <agateau> no it does not
[16:10] <Nightrose> agateau: eh sorry - that's what i meant
[16:10] <ScottK> I don't think it's a big deal to have it in the tray and people who don't want it remove it.
[16:10] <agateau> I am worried about having an invisible plasmoid in the panel
[16:10] <agateau> how would user handle this?
[16:11] <agateau> seele, what's your opinion on this?
[16:11] <rgreening> Riddell: I'll +1 if a) the invisible works and b) apps are not configured by default to have it enabled
[16:11]  * apachelogger agrees with agateau
[16:11] <seele> i'm ok with it being there by default as long as it is still the v1 concept
[16:11] <rgreening> hmm...
[16:11] <seele> i have concerns about what htey want to do with v2 and future versions
[16:11]  * rgreening does too
[16:11] <Riddell> rgreening: that's not what I'm proposing.  I'm proposing we have it on by default and apps to use it.  it's far better than annoying popup notifications
[16:11] <agateau> seele: i was wondering about the invisible or not
[16:12] <ScottK> I think the future versions likely actively conflict with some stuff KDE has planned
[16:12] <seele> oh
[16:12] <Riddell> it's in KDE SVN by the way http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kdereview/plasma/applets/message-indicator/
[16:12] <yuriy> did quassel patches for MI get in?
[16:12] <ScottK> They did.
[16:12] <rgreening> Riddell: and didn't asiego trash it on the ML
[16:12] <seele> well.. being invisible when there are no messages would better support the purpose of the messge indicator instead of altering the icon
[16:12] <Riddell> yuriy: yes although there's some stuff to be fixed in them
[16:12] <ScottK> rgreening: No, that was the KDE libs stuff for notifications
[16:13] <rgreening> ah
[16:13] <agateau> seele: I think I could influence the API to have a "only running apps" flag
[16:13] <Nightrose> looking at aaron's comment in the blog linked makes me crinche
[16:13] <seele> agateau: do apps register in kde like they do in gnome? i didnt understand how that worked
[16:13] <seele> so if no apps which use the MI are running, it should definitely be off
[16:13] <rgreening> Riddell: personally, a default on at this point seems a bit pre-mature. THere are still too many questions we all have
[16:13] <seele> otherwise it's useless
[16:14] <apachelogger> hm
[16:14] <seele> rgreening: to be fair, it is 100% for testing purposes, specifically in combination with the ayatana style notifications
[16:14] <apachelogger> you know
[16:14] <apachelogger> Nightrose got a point there
[16:14] <ScottK> Which comment?
[16:14] <Nightrose> the first one
[16:14] <agateau> seele: don't you think it won't be very userfriendly if the user drop the plasmoid on the panel and nothing appears?
[16:14] <rgreening> seele: I agree, but the question at hand is make it default for all users, not "opt in"
[16:14] <apachelogger> the one were aaron said it is no goody good
[16:15] <apachelogger> TBH I would rather not piss off upstream even further
[16:15] <ScottK> Nightrose: Link?
[16:15] <apachelogger> me that is
[16:15] <apachelogger> ScottK: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4043
[16:15] <seele> agateau: how people add plasmoids is a separate problem, and yes it is a problem
[16:15] <ScottK> Thanks
[16:15] <seele> part of the problem with upstream is that they only finalized the systray spec last week at tokamak
[16:15] <seele> so there was no way of knowing what they were planning and how to work with them
[16:16] <ScottK> seele: Then how is it there are apps in KDE 4.3 using it?
[16:16] <seele> ScottK: i dunno, it's still in my unread box :)
[16:16]  * JontheEchidna would rather enjoy upstream not being PO'd at us too
[16:16]  * ScottK thinks this would have been much better as a systray app (and said so all along)
[16:16] <agateau> to me indicators are really different from the new system tray spec
[16:17]  * agateau can't remember when ScottK said so
[16:17] <ScottK> At UDS for a start
[16:17] <ScottK> On #ayatana a few times too.
[16:18]  * ScottK even got jumped on by tedg for it.
[16:18] <Riddell> I'd rather see all of the plasmoids power, device notifier and message indicator in the systray but that's not how they're coded currently
[16:18] <ScottK> Yep.
[16:18] <JontheEchidna> ^Things are looking better in 4.4 for that regard
[16:18] <ScottK> I think fundamentally because Ubuntu apps are expecting a MI to exist, we need to ship it.
[16:19] <agateau> 4.4 will make it possible to run palsmoid in systray
[16:19] <rgreening> IMO, until we resolve some of the key questions, I do not see us making this a default (yet). If we can resolve the issues at hand, its a possibility...
[16:19] <Riddell> rgreening: what are your issues?
[16:19] <ScottK> People use Gnome stuff in Kubuntu and we ought to (as best we can) make that work.
[16:19] <apachelogger> ScottK: or the ubuntu apps could be fixed, just like the patches against KDE apps should not expect indication when there is no indicator (as said in my mail from yesterday)
[16:19] <rgreening> Riddell: all the questions we have presented thus far..
[16:19] <apachelogger> all the same for ubuntu apps
[16:20] <ScottK> apachelogger: Who'se going to write these patches?
[16:20] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[16:20] <ScottK> That's the problem.
[16:20] <ScottK> I think they are what they are and we aren't going to change them.
[16:21] <rgreening> Is there a new package of MI?
[16:21] <apachelogger> well, I suppose we should limit the application of the indicator to that use case for now
[16:21] <rgreening> Currently mine doesn't behave the way I expect.
[16:22] <apachelogger> see where KDE goes with the systray
[16:22] <apachelogger> and let both mature
[16:22] <ScottK> I think that's reasonable.
[16:22] <JontheEchidna> yeah, is there a new version of the plasmoid? Mine currently still doesn't bring apps to the front
[16:22] <Nightrose> +1
[16:22] <agateau> JontheEchidna: it depends on the app actually
[16:22] <agateau> I fixed the Kopete bug
[16:22] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: I think he's stil working on that.  Turn focus stealing prevention off and it should work.
[16:22] <JontheEchidna> agateau: konvi and kmail, neither do anything really
[16:23] <rgreening> Kopete doesn't come forward for me
[16:23] <ScottK> Bug discussion probably doesn't need to happen in the meeting.
[16:23] <agateau> rgreening: uploaded a new patchset for this, should be working once it's integrated
[16:23]  * agateau agrees with ScottK
[16:23] <agateau> still, is invisible mode a blocker for you?
[16:23] <ScottK> Riddell: Is the kopete systray icon part of this discussion or a separate topic?
[16:23] <rgreening> well, its hard ot agree to something which doesn't work for me, is my point :)
[16:24] <JontheEchidna> ^same here
[16:24] <ScottK> rgreening: OK, well assuming it gets fixed.
[16:24] <Riddell> ScottK: I can't see a point in a systray for an app if the message indicator is on
[16:24] <ScottK> Riddell: I don't think it should be on by default and it's easy enough for people to hide it if they don't want it in 4.3.
[16:25] <ScottK> Riddell: I think what we are ~agreeing to do his is ship MI by default, but not enable it by default in Kubuntu apps.
[16:25] <Nightrose> Riddell: can i open and hide kopete to send a message and not have it in the taskbar all the time?
[16:25] <rgreening> +1 ScottK
[16:25] <Riddell> Nightrose: with the MI yes
[16:25] <seele> Nightrose: you can minimize to systray so it doesnt take up an entry in the task bar
[16:25] <Nightrose> ok
[16:25] <neversfelde> MI is very confusing when using it with multiple IMAP accounts with lots of folders and I heard many kopete users complain about not having a tray icon. I think bringing in MI by default would confuse a lot of users.
[16:25] <Nightrose> seele: yea that's what i was wondering
[16:25] <Nightrose> is that still possible
[16:26] <seele> yes
[16:26] <seele> the mi proposal is to remove the systray icon and only access it from the MI
[16:26]  * apachelogger notes that latest default settings have tray icons again
[16:26] <ScottK> \o/
[16:26] <seele> which is inappropriate imo because the MI is an indicator not a message center
[16:26] <Nightrose> *nod*
[16:26] <seele> you shouldnt go to a new message indicator to create a new message or find a buddy or manage kopete
[16:26] <Nightrose> right
[16:26] <rgreening> seele: however, in doing that, do we lose the icon functionality - i.e. the right click options? agateau
[16:27] <rgreening> I use the right-click menu al the time
[16:27] <agateau> rgreening: yes, there aren't any right click option on the indicator entries
[16:27] <agateau> it's probably not for you then
[16:27] <rgreening> -1 from me for that
[16:27] <rgreening> which is why "default" on would be bad.
[16:27] <Nightrose> dito
[16:28] <ScottK> rgreening: Having it there by default doesn't mean it has to be enabled for Kubuntu apps by default.
[16:28] <ScottK> Those issues are severable.
[16:28] <rgreening> ScottK: that's not what I sadi
[16:28] <rgreening> :)
[16:29] <ScottK> OK.  Wasn't sure.
[16:29] <rgreening> ScottK: we were referencing the default on in KDE apps
[16:29] <ScottK> OK.
[16:29] <ScottK> I think that shold definitely be off.
[16:29] <rgreening> So, I'm ok with adding the MI, but not with enabling by default in KDE apps
[16:29] <JontheEchidna> ^me too
[16:30] <rgreening> Riddell: will we vote on the amended proposal then?
[16:30] <Riddell> I'm not sure I understand the point, you want an extra icon on the panel which is only useful if people turn on options or run gnome apps?
[16:31] <rgreening> Riddell: not want, but as ScottK indicates, there are Gnome apps which require this... and in order to work under KDE
[16:31] <ScottK> Riddell:  I think people should opt in to using it.
[16:31] <ScottK> It's one right-click and a left click to remove it if they don't want it.
[16:31] <rgreening> turning on the integration, and losing functionality is worse IMO. We need to let this mature more. At UDS we all agreed upon an opt-in
[16:31] <agateau> it's probably quite late, but maybe we can make clicking on the icon display an explanation of what it is and how to enable it's use in applications
[16:32] <ScottK> That's not a bad idea.
[16:32] <rgreening> agateau: +++++1000000000
[16:32]  * agateau hits a high score :)
[16:32] <rgreening> :)
[16:33]  * apachelogger notes that by having it there, people who opt in can provide feedback on the general concept and the implementation
[16:33] <apachelogger> so we are not jumping the gun but allow users do it
[16:33] <rgreening> +1 apachelogger
[16:34]  * JontheEchidna likes that
[16:34] <apachelogger> gotta go ... +1 on having it there by default ... -1 on having it turned on in KDE apps
[16:34] <apachelogger> cyas
[16:34] <ScottK> Riddell: Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
[16:35] <Riddell> I maintain my previous comment
[16:36] <Riddell> but that seems to be the will of the council and community, seele, Nightrose?
[16:37] <rgreening> so, do we need a vote call or are we ok?
[16:37] <seele> Riddell: there seem to be some unresolved issues with it
[16:37] <Nightrose> i'm with apachelogger
[16:37] <seele> making it available but not enabled is the best i could hope for, i dont know if enabling it by default is a good idea
[16:38] <seele> it's ubuntu's fault for making gnome apps not work in KDE without the MI running
[16:38] <rgreening> lol
[16:38] <Riddell> I guess that's settled
[16:39] <Riddell> next item I put down is IRC client, are we any closer to deciding on Quassel vs konvi?
[16:39] <ScottK> For IRC client, I'd propose that be deferred.
[16:39] <Riddell> yeah you said there's something new coming?
[16:39] <ScottK> Post 0.5 rc 1, the quassel devs have been working on fixing usability bugs.
[16:39] <rgreening> I am actually rather enjoying Quassel (not that Ive gotten used to it)
[16:39] <ScottK> I've filed for a U/I freeze exception
[16:40] <Riddell> ok so we'll keep that as "decide before beta"
[16:40] <ScottK> Assuming it gets approved, I expect to have this uploaded by Sunday
[16:40] <Riddell> JontheEchidna had "KDE3 universe artifacts of an ancient past"
[16:40] <JontheEchidna> yus
[16:40] <JontheEchidna> Debian's begun to remove some of the older, unmaintained/orphaned kde3 apps
[16:41] <JontheEchidna> I've been following this using those lovely multidistro tools at qa.ubuntuwire.com
[16:41] <ScottK> We should follow, not lead on this.
[16:41] <JontheEchidna> yeah, but we also have quite a few apps not in debian ourselves
[16:41] <ScottK> OK.
[16:41] <JontheEchidna> when/how do we want to deal with these?
[16:41] <ScottK> Unless someone has been caring for them, just kill them, IMO.
[16:41] <JontheEchidna> upstream dead 2 years, not really popular = baleet?
[16:42] <ScottK> It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current archive rebuild test gets to K.
[16:42] <JontheEchidna> if old kde3 stuff fails we should just remove 'em, imo
[16:43] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: As a MOTU you are fully empowered to ask for cruft to be removed from the archive.  I'd say just do it unless you are uncertain and ask then.
[16:43] <Riddell> I already had to fix a compile issue in koffice 1, not fun
[16:43] <JontheEchidna> okie-doke
[16:43] <ScottK> Any objections to my suggestion?
[16:44] <Riddell> don't be afraid to cull where it seems sensible
[16:44] <JontheEchidna> any cruft-minded MOTUs are welcome to help me, of course :)
[16:44] <Riddell> JontheEchidna had an item "Userconfig vs KUser"
[16:44] <JontheEchidna> Yeah, userconfig is on the verge of being accepted into  Main
[16:45] <ScottK> I vote for userconfig on the basis of being integrated into systemsettings.
[16:45] <Riddell> it's not well integrated, it's still a separate dialogue
[16:45] <JontheEchidna> bug 423741, is the MIR, for the interested
[16:45] <JontheEchidna> unfortunately that's a limitation for any root-wanting systemsettings module :(
[16:45] <ScottK> Kuser sitting there by itself is just odd.
[16:45] <JontheEchidna> should be fixable in 10.04
[16:46] <JontheEchidna> assuming KAuth gets python bindings
[16:46] <JontheEchidna> KUser is also not that well maintained
[16:46] <Riddell> do we know or care about the LDAP question?
[16:46] <Riddell> yuriy: ^^
[16:46] <Riddell> yuriy: also any plans to include it upstream?
[16:47] <ScottK> Riddell: I don't think we are particularly enterprise ready at the moment, so if we move Kuser to the dvd for people that need LDAP, I think it's fine.
[16:48] <rgreening> +1 from me
[16:48] <rgreening> userconfig looks better and less cryptic
[16:48] <Riddell> +1 too
[16:48] <allee-k> ScottK: enterprise is IMHO not our target.  IMHO something even simpler than userconfig is the way to go
[16:49] <JontheEchidna> for really simple, users can already change their own passwords in the About Me module.
[16:49] <ScottK> Any objections to userconfig on the CD and kuser on the DVD?
[16:49]  * rgreening agrees with JontheEchidna
[16:49] <rgreening> nope
[16:49] <Riddell> any other business?
[16:50] <rgreening> not here
[16:50] <allee-k> JontheEchidna: I imagine a combination between about me and userconfig
[16:50] <Riddell> thanks for coming all
[16:51] <ScottK> Riddell: We can't move kuser until userconfig is promoted.
[16:51] <allee-k> independently userconfig way better than kuser for our desktop target group
[16:51] <Riddell> ScottK: I think I can do that immediately
[16:51] <ScottK> Excellent.
[16:51] <agateau> Is it the right time to discuss Ayatana notifications?
[16:51] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: someone shuld write a add new user wizard (which I though would satisfy allee-k) :)
[16:51] <rgreening> ehhe
[16:52] <ScottK> agateau: Is there some decision you want the community to take?
[16:52] <agateau> I would like to know whether my current patchset can go in
[16:52] <ScottK> What does it do?
[16:52]  * ScottK lost track
[16:53]  * agateau grabs an url
[16:53] <agateau> http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/plasma-ayatana-notifications/index.html
[16:54]  * rgreening keeps getting notifications and MI garbled :)
[16:54] <ScottK> agateau: Did you see my powerdevil question on the ml?
[16:54] <agateau> yes,
[16:54] <agateau> it would suck if the dialog would still be there after resume
[16:55]  * ScottK is behind on mail.  If you answered it, what did you say?
[16:55] <ScottK> It would.
[16:55] <agateau> haven't answered yet
[16:55] <ScottK> OK.  Would it still be there?
[16:55] <rgreening> someone suggested making the popup nitification last longer
[16:55] <agateau> I don't think so
[16:56] <agateau> rgreening: this is a good idea, but it won't work with ayatana notifications anyway
[16:56] <rgreening> ah
[16:56] <agateau> here is a link to the upstream discussion
[16:56] <agateau> http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=125179433603214&w=2
[16:56] <agateau> not really easy to follow in the archives though
[16:57] <rgreening> agateau: what is the liklihood of these patches getting into upstream
[16:57] <agateau> but if you click "next in thread" a few times, you will find some people who agree on dialog-ifying this
[16:57] <ScottK> agateau: No one asked the will it be there after resume quesiton IIRC.
[16:57] <agateau> ScottK: I guess they do not expect it still be there
[16:57] <rgreening> agateau: Im ok with dialog. assuming it can be made to go away or not appear on resume (maybe it already does - can you test)
[16:58] <ScottK> If the dialogue remains after resume, then I think it clearly can't be used.
[16:58] <agateau> ScottK: rgreening: there is no code behind this for now
[16:58] <agateau> that'll teach me to ask before coding :)
[16:58] <rgreening> ah
[16:58] <ScottK> agateau: I think this is a case where if you can get it accepted upstream for KDE 4.4, then we (modulo the resume question) do it.
[16:58] <rgreening> lol
[16:59] <agateau> seele: what do you think of this, from a ui point of view?
[16:59] <ScottK> agateau: I wouldn't want to have to keep this a Kubuntu patch in the long run.
[16:59] <agateau> ScottK: ok
[16:59] <ScottK> agateau: I'd like to understand why it's better than a slightly extended notification when using normal KDE notifications?
[17:00] <ScottK> If upstream takes it, I don't worry too much, but I am curious.
[17:00] <agateau> I think it's better because the system is about to perform a very drastic operation, so it should be allowed to warn you in a bit more disruptive way
[17:00]  * seele reads up
[17:00] <seele> sorry got a work phone call
[17:01] <agateau> It would also be nicer because of the countdown
[17:01] <agateau> (see my mockup on kubuntu-devel@ list)
[17:01] <seele> i dont see the question
[17:01] <ScottK> Countdown is a good point.
[17:01] <agateau> or here:
[17:01] <rgreening> seele: re powerdevil dialog
[17:01] <agateau> ttp://people.canonical.com/~agateau/tmp/powerdevil-suspend-dialog.png
[17:01] <agateau> arf
[17:01] <agateau> http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/tmp/powerdevil-suspend-dialog.png
[17:02] <agateau> seele: I would like to replace one of the  Powerdevil notifications with a dialog
[17:02] <agateau> the one which says that the system is about to suspend
[17:02] <rgreening> agateau: and if count == 0 or button pressed, doalog happliy goes away and power devil continues. excellent.
[17:02] <agateau> because with ayatana notifications, you don't get actions and can't prevent suspend
[17:03] <agateau> rgreening: that's it
[17:03] <seele> the text is fine although that looks like it should be integrated into the logout thing, not a new dialog
[17:03] <rgreening> +1 from me on this change. I think upstream would like that assuming it would work with or without ayatana notifications
[17:03] <ScottK> agateau: It'd also be nice to have a little bigger target to hit for don't suspend.  My Dell Mini 10v has a crap touchpad and so precision clicking in a short time is hard.
[17:04] <agateau> seele: you mean the fullscreen modal thingy?
[17:04] <seele> yeah
[17:04] <agateau> ScottK: dialog buttons tend to be bigger than notification buttons
[17:04] <seele> but it's better than nothing
[17:04] <seele> but it should be 30 seconds not 10
[17:04] <seele> 10 is too short
[17:04] <agateau> seele: agreed
[17:04] <rgreening> +1 on 30s
[17:04] <ScottK> seele: 10 is from KDE
[17:04] <agateau> this can probably be fixed in the default-settings package
[17:05] <seele> ScottK: i dont care, it's still too short :)
[17:05] <agateau> seele: I can investigate using the logout screen, but I am afraid it's going to be more involved than a dialog
[17:05] <ScottK> seele: I agree, I just think it'd be good to push there with your usability hat on.
[17:05] <yuriy> left at a bad time. Riddell: yes, in theory
[17:06] <seele> ok guys i've got to go
[17:07] <seele> i'll check the log and pm for anything you need me to respond to later
[17:07] <Riddell> so the whole ayatana notification patch is blocked on this one issue?
[17:07] <ScottK> Riddell: I don't think so.
[17:08] <Riddell> so what's the issue for us including it?  why can't we have it as long as agateau maintains it?
[17:09] <ScottK> It didn't seem terribly controversial upstream.  It'd be better if we didn't have to.
[17:09] <rgreening> +1 for less patches moving forward. Integrating upstream is a definate plus if we can do it.
[17:09] <Riddell> well it's UI freeze today as I understand it so I think we should include it in Kubuntu if we're going to
[17:10] <ScottK> We're already past UI freeze
[17:10] <Riddell> best get it in fast then :)
[17:11] <agateau> I would need a UI freeze exception for Powerdevil,
[17:11] <agateau> and for the explanation text in MI
[17:11] <agateau> and Ayatana notifications if it does not go in in a very short time :)
[17:11] <ScottK> Riddell: You could just committ it to kdesvn and we'd be done.
[17:12] <Riddell> I could if there's really no objections upstream
[17:13] <ScottK> I'd review the ML thread, but I don't recall any serious objections.
[17:13] <Riddell> it's a plan
[17:13] <agateau> I am not sure I understand what you want to commit to kdesvn?
[17:13] <ScottK> The powerdevil dialogue
[17:14] <agateau> oh ok
[17:14] <agateau> I wouldn't dare commiting it without proposing it on plasma@ before
[17:14] <agateau> or kde-core-devel@
[17:14] <agateau> (because it's not part of Plasma in fact)
[17:15] <ScottK> Right, so let Riddell do it.
[17:15] <agateau> Please also remember there is nothing to commit yet
[17:16] <ScottK> Certainly
[17:16] <agateau> so the plan would be 1. writing it 2. getting it upstream 3. backporting it?
[17:17] <ScottK> Yes.  With probably a VERY short interval between 2 and 3.
[17:17] <agateau> ok
[17:17] <agateau> can Ayatana notifications go in before this?
[17:17] <ScottK> I think so.
[17:18]  * ScottK isn't the final decider on anything, but I don't see why not.
[17:18] <agateau> sounds good to me
[17:19] <rgreening> agateau: btw, great work so far on all of this. We do appreciate your time and effort and in listening to our thoughts, discussions, etc.
[17:19] <agateau> rgreening: thanks
[17:19] <rgreening> np
[17:19] <Riddell> any other any other business?
[17:19] <ScottK> Not from me
[17:19] <rgreening> nope
[17:20]  * rgreening needs to write a FFe for arora 0.9.0
[17:20] <Riddell> yay, Arora
[17:20]  * rgreening think 'or get someone to do this' haha
[17:20] <rgreening> :)
[17:20]  * JontheEchidna has already written 2 FFe's for various things this cycle :P
[17:21] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: then you are old hat at this. Want to copy/paste one for Arora?
[17:21] <JontheEchidna> it's really unique to each upgarde
[17:22] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: http://arorabrowser.blogspot.com/2009/08/arora-090.html - bug fixes we require are listed on the blog :)
[17:22] <JontheEchidna> "I would like to request a feature freeze exception for" <- There you go :P
[17:22] <rgreening> haha
[17:22] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: ok. I'll do it. got a bug example I can work from...
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> basically you gotta state the reasons
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> attach a pbuilder log
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> and an install log
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> then subscribe motu release
[17:24] <JontheEchidna> oh, attach the updated package too of coursd
[17:24] <JontheEchidna> *course
[17:26] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: arora is in Main
[17:27] <JontheEchidna> hmm, who to subscribe then?
[17:33] <ScottK> ubuntu-release