[03:41] <doctormo> BiosElement: Hello again
[03:42] <doctormo> Did bzr play ball last night?
[03:43] <BiosElement> Hey doctormo Yeah, it's mostly playing. Lemme link ya to what I upped. Afraid it's not much but I'll try to correct that problem. >.> Next project is writing a bzr for beginners guide for teachers writing a course
[03:43] <BiosElement> https://code.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/williamchambers
[03:44] <doctormo> Certainly an excelent plan
[03:44] <doctormo> And gets us all practicing creating classes
[03:44] <BiosElement> I figured at the very least it'd be a stopgap till the rest of the lesson is finised
[03:44] <BiosElement> *finished
[03:49] <doctormo> looking at it now
[03:50] <BiosElement> I probably organized it wrong >.>
[03:52] <doctormo> BiosElement, pleia2, paultag: Your advice please, I want thinking of having a description section for each course, explaining what it's trying to do and what we expect people to learn throught the entire course.
[03:52] <paultag> Hay
[03:52] <pleia2> in one of the course documents?
[03:52] <paultag> great idea doctormo
[03:53] <paultag> doctormo: it will help focus topics
[03:53] <pleia2> like an objective section
[03:53] <BiosElement> Already thought we were going to do that eventually. >.>
[03:53] <doctormo> Thinking they should be written before hand
[03:54] <doctormo> I think I'm also going to take dina's advice and have a section in each class lesson plan at the top which should be headed "Class Objectives" and in there a short description of what the students should achieve by the end of the class.
[03:54] <doctormo> She called them learning ovjectives
[03:54] <doctormo> Perhaps that's a better name,
[03:54]  * pleia2 nods
[03:57] <doctormo> BiosElement: OK, notes about your class so far. Not sure about the headers with the [# Name] format.
[03:57] <doctormo> But otherwise it's a great step forward,
[03:57] <BiosElement> Aight. I kinda liked it but I figured they were easy to change later.
[03:57] <doctormo> I'm thinking that perhaps a better source compilation format is required, I fear that the odts are not modual enough for the kinds of publication and style definition we might want to do.
[03:58] <doctormo> Thoughts on using TeX?
[03:58] <BiosElement> If you give me a minute I may have an idea
[03:58] <BiosElement> Well, more like 10min >.>
[03:58] <pleia2> tex makes the barrier for entry much higher
[03:58] <pleia2> I think odt is good
[03:58] <BiosElement> Pure .txt with syntax for headers, bold, etc
[03:59] <pleia2> we're already having a hard enough time getting people to write courses
[03:59] <BiosElement> Honestly, I don't like odt very much besides that it's an open format. >.>
[03:59] <BiosElement> But I agree it's important to keep it simple pleia2
[04:00] <pleia2> out of curiousity, what is the  ">.>" thing you end your lines with?
[04:00] <BiosElement> haha, sorry. Just a nasty habit of mine. It's supposed to be "shifty eyes".
[04:01] <pleia2> ah, I thought that might be it but you use it a lot so I wanted to make sure :)
[04:01] <BiosElement> I've got a few options that should all be very simple.
[04:01] <doctormo> pleia2: I agree, but we can help that by thinking about tools that make the workflow easy to get into, I was thinking about a simple dev tool that downloads the bzr branch and allows commiting like bzr-gtk
[04:02] <pleia2> doctormo: oh, that'd be great
[04:02] <BiosElement> The one I first thought of is Sphinx which is what python uses for their docs. It's got a very clear .txt format. Not sure how hard it'd be to setup though. I can try later tonight.
[04:02] <BiosElement> HTML: http://docs.python.org/3.1/whatsnew/3.1.html
[04:02] <BiosElement> TXT: http://docs.python.org/3.1/_sources/whatsnew/3.1.txt
[04:02] <doctormo> BiosElement: If we can find somethign that is editable in openoffice, but more flexible. Then that would be best
[04:03] <BiosElement> doctormo, I'm looking at pure .txt because It may always be possible to build later onto that.
[04:03] <BiosElement> Also bzr commit changes should show nicer.
[04:03] <doctormo> Of course, although html, xml, wiki and pdf should all be considered publication target formats.
[04:03] <pleia2> yeah
[04:04] <BiosElement> Exactly.
[04:04] <BiosElement> doctormo, Any thoughts on the sphinx example?
[04:04] <pleia2> and if there is some kind of moodle format
[04:04] <BiosElement> pleia2, If there isn't I could probably hack one together.
[04:05] <BiosElement> reStructuredText and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown are the other two that come to mind. The python docs example uses reStructuredText
[04:07] <doctormo> BiosElement: As a python programmer myself, I'd have a bias for using sphinx and such, but we may need something more apt, I'm not sure how we should include images etc, but it's a larger scope than just doc
[04:08] <BiosElement> doctormo, That's what I was thinking. I like python too. But Markdown is another that could work. though we'll have to figure out images.
[04:11] <BiosElement> Personally I see no need to re-invent the wheel with several good proven .txt based formats out there.
[04:15] <BiosElement> Images work with markdown. Syntax is ![Alt text](/path/to/img.jpg "Optional title")
[04:20] <doctormo> BiosElement: And now what about editing tools? At least LaTeX has gui tools for editing we could use
[04:23] <doctormo> Oh did I mention that your files should all have the name of the class rather than just the generic couse name 'Teaching'
[04:23] <BiosElement> I'd imagine there's a editor. I'll go poke around
[04:23] <BiosElement> And yeah, I figured that.
[04:26] <BiosElement> Would we even really need a gui though really? I mean the point would be to focus on the text. It could always be written in .odt and converted over to be upped
[04:26] <BiosElement> IMO the syntax is pretty clear
[04:27] <doctormo> BiosElement: Aye, sometimes it's just a matter of apperences though, if we could edit the entire class in one long stream but them have it split up when saved, that would be best.
[04:29] <BiosElement> I hear what you mean
[04:30] <BiosElement> Funny thing is Sphinx seems the least complicated >.>
[04:32] <doctormo> heh, well if you want to give it a shot just take my networking class and convert it into sphinx and see hwo easy the workflow is.
[04:32] <BiosElement> Aight, I'll start toying
[04:40] <doctormo> BiosElement: The most research and playing around, the better our workfow I think
[04:41] <BiosElement> Probably
[04:42] <BiosElement> doctormo, Sphinx can export to latex, html and probably pdf
[04:43] <doctormo> If not, then latex or html will, I just want to make sure that I could define 1xdiagram, 1xexplination, 1xdescription and 1xexercise which can be combined into a published section with other sections into the overview sheets we know and love.
[04:44] <BiosElement> Honestly with a few changes I think sphinx can do it. It's a little focused towards documenting a project rather then just a document but that should be just a few template changes away
[05:12] <BiosElement> doctormo, Question: Would it be useful to have digital "textbooks" and just use moodle for the "coursework" like quizzes, mail, etc?
[05:12] <doctormo> BiosElement: If we can do it so that the moodle is front end providing those downloads
[05:13] <BiosElement> doctormo, Well it could be all in a pdf, zip, page-by-page or hosted.
[05:16] <doctormo> BiosElement: Depends how we do it
[05:17] <BiosElement> Personally I'm really liking this format. It'll take me awhile to convert it all over but it's really simple to do and looks great.
[05:26] <doctormo> If you can commit to a different branch, then we can both have a play around, what ever you do, I'll need to set up some tools to make this all easier
[05:27] <BiosElement> I don't mind if I have to convert others work over from .odt format honestly. the actual work isn't hard. Just I'm flooded with windows here so It's kinda slow work >.>
[05:30] <doctormo> BiosElement: I can see that formatting and structuralisation is fun for you yes?
[05:31] <BiosElement> doctormo, I sound like a masochist don't I... >.> Not fun exactly, but it 'is' fun to get instant gratification.
[05:37] <doctormo> heh, well I'd like to see the first class and what scripts / tools to automate the workflow before you convert any more.
[05:38] <BiosElement> Currently all you do is run "make html" in the directory and it dumps the html files into a seperate directory ready for use. If there are images it'll copy the ones that are used over also
[05:40] <BiosElement> doctormo, http://bioselement.com/teachingtest.zip
[05:41] <BiosElement> Note that I haven't actually done more then a quick test. I got distracted by looking into the templates
[05:55] <doctormo_> BiosElement: Interesting stuff
[05:56] <BiosElement> That's what I thought.
[05:57] <doctormo_> Now get it to build pdf files :-)
[06:00] <BiosElement> Can do
[06:00] <BiosElement> For the record: pdf is where docs go to die
[06:00] <BiosElement> >.>
[06:05] <BiosElement> Dear heavens doctormo_ the latex data for converting to pdf's is a freaken gig >.>
[06:06] <BiosElement> Why? Because language files for every language under the sun, from english to the language of the lone fisherman in the middle of the ocean is required >.>
[06:06] <doctormo_> what? explain, I don't understand
[06:06] <BiosElement> texlive requires every supported language pack to be installed >.>
[06:24] <doctormo_> BiosElement: bUll, redo the package if that's what it's doing
[06:24] <BiosElement> doctormo_, That's what I said. I'm poking through the packages now to find the exact one
[06:24] <BiosElement> It's very poorly documented.
[06:25] <BiosElement> +1 for packages.ubuntu.com though >.> Making things much easier
[06:25] <BiosElement> Looks like texlive-latex-extra has the pdf generator and is 500mb less.
[06:26] <doctormo> heh, it's funny but if we were going to make use of it, we'd need it fixing anyway
[06:27] <BiosElement> doctormo, Yep. Well I've got the generator installed but it wants fonts...back to the salt mines for me.
[06:27] <BiosElement> Ahh, looks like I somehow didn't have 'textlive' installed with the fonts.
[06:28] <BiosElement> PDF: http://bioselement.com/TeachingTest.pdf
[06:29] <BiosElement> All the blank pages are because I broke the Table of Contents format
[06:29] <BiosElement> And because there's hardly enough content >.>
[06:32] <doctormo> BiosElement: OK, so I want to see a diagram and I want to see a code snipit, styled. This proves two of the couter points.
[06:34] <BiosElement> Aight
[06:37] <BiosElement> doctormo, Re-download the pdf
[06:37] <BiosElement> And the zip is bioselement.com/TeachingTest.zip
[06:38] <doctormo> They are the same
[06:38] <BiosElement> Shouldn't be. Should have code sample + image
[06:38] <BiosElement> Hang on
[06:39] <BiosElement> www.bioselement.com/TeachingTest2.pdf
[06:40] <doctormo> OK so the code snipit should be in a coloured box similar to what I have in my PDFs and the image should come from the svgs available.
[06:40] <doctormo> I don't really want raster images to be the norm
[06:40] <BiosElement> Fine by me, I just grabbed it as the closest image to toss in
[06:41] <doctormo> Oh and align right.
[06:43] <doctormo> But it's excelent work, I'm excited to see where this goes
[06:44] <BiosElement> Ahh, I'll see what I can do. Thanks
[06:44] <BiosElement> Not sure about the right align but I suspect it shouldn't be 'too' hard to ad the code styling for the pdf
[06:45] <BiosElement> It does support code highlighting
[06:45] <doctormo> Well I want to see how close to the style of my pdf you can get, since I want condensed styles, allowing teachers to print things out for students without bancrupting them
[06:47] <BiosElement> Images can be right aligned
[06:48] <BiosElement> I don't think I can get any kind of background behind the code for the pdf currently though
[06:48] <BiosElement> It is monospace though
[06:51] <doctormo> hmm, even html could put the code in a div tag which padding and borders
[06:51] <BiosElement> Currently the html version does have a code bg, only the pdf uses pure monospace
[06:52] <BiosElement> Honestly I think that saves ink
[06:53] <doctormo> Perhaps, but I'd still like to know I have full power to control the style, if it's too hard to style (and I'd like the style to be some form of a style sheet) then it's inflexible.
[06:54] <BiosElement> It's latex, It's a pretty standard format so I can't imagine there's nothing else out there.
[06:55] <BiosElement> See first i generate the latex docs, then from that go to pdf.
[06:58] <BiosElement> And if we wanted we could always generate the html files with a special template and just print them off that way.
[07:00] <doctormo> We could always generate them in a number of steps
[07:00] <doctormo> I suppose the html could contain the css refs and that could make pdfs of the right style
[07:01] <BiosElement> Exactly
[07:04] <doctormo> Now you just have to show me it in action :-D
[07:07] <BiosElement> haha
[07:22] <BiosElement> doctormo, I want candy :P
[07:22] <BiosElement> This is working nicely
[07:22] <doctormo> BiosElement: Wonderful, what kind of sweets?
[07:23] <BiosElement> haha, I'll take anything sweet. Speaking of which, the .rst files look 'really' sweet.
[07:24] <doctormo> cool, well I'll get you a crunchy bar, fair's fair
[07:24] <BiosElement> hehe, yay :P
[07:25] <BiosElement> FYI I'll need to add image padding to the css
[07:27] <doctormo> OK, so I'd like you to commit your work to an experimental branch attached to ubuntu-learning-materials, that way I can see it and help if need be, without uploading or padding around things
[07:27] <BiosElement> Ok. One minor problem just now, lemme fix it
[07:28] <BiosElement> Oh I see the problem
[07:28] <doctormo> Don't bother to commit any of the builded or compiled files, I should be able to work about it.
[07:29] <BiosElement> Aight, the only hard part was pdf's
[07:30] <BiosElement> FYI doctormo the make command is "make html" in the main directory
[07:38] <BiosElement> doctormo, Should be working https://code.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat
[07:38] <doctormo> thanks!
[07:38] <BiosElement> doctormo, Lemme know if it's missing anything....I think the makefile got list
[07:39] <BiosElement> doctormo, It was. Pushing the makefile now
[07:40] <BiosElement> Should be fine now
[07:40] <BiosElement> doctormo, Note this: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat/annotate/head%3A/systems-admin/source/01-command_line.rst
[07:41] <BiosElement> Easy to read, even with just text
[07:42] <doctormo> ok so I need to get sphinx, is that this bad package?
[07:43] <BiosElement> doctormo, No
[07:43] <doctormo> E: Couldn't find package sphinx-build
[07:43] <BiosElement> doctormo, One moment
[07:43] <BiosElement> package is python-sphinx
[07:44] <BiosElement> To make the pdf's you will need texlive and texlive-latex-base
[07:45] <BiosElement> The texlive-latex-base is the one that took me forever to find
[07:51] <doctormo> hmm a bunch of warnings and errors
[07:51] <BiosElement> About?
[07:57] <BiosElement> doctormo, Finished converting 01 - Command Line
[07:57] <doctormo> cool, I'll pull
[08:01] <BiosElement> "just" fixed the index page too
[08:07] <BiosElement> doctormo, Lemme know how it works
[08:09] <doctormo> Looks good, I will have to reform the css of course, since it's supposed to be more of a teaching thing than a documentation thing
[08:09] <BiosElement> Of course
[08:10] <doctormo> BiosElement: While I do that, can you get a simple svg2png process going on with the make, I'd like the svgs to be the source
[08:12] <BiosElement> Just outta curiosity, can't we just use svg's? I mean most modern browsers can read them and if we're teaching ubuntu I'd hope they have an ubuntu machine
[08:14] <doctormo> We could, but we'd have to use different html, not until firefox 4.0 will we be able to specify svgs in the img tag
[08:15] <doctormo> OK, I think we should remove the align right from the source docs, it's more of the style thing anyway
[08:15] <BiosElement> Figures >.>
[08:15] <BiosElement> It's up to you if you want too
[08:15] <BiosElement> But we 'can' align it
[08:17] <doctormo> Aye, I think I'll keep alignments in the css files, that way we can better control the publication
[08:18] <BiosElement> Only problem with that is if we 'don't want to align it
[08:20] <doctormo> Nah, that can be controlled too, alignment can be switched on and off at will
[08:24] <BiosElement> Ahh, well if that's true then great
[08:24] <doctormo> That one conf should probably apply to all sections of the same course, I'd like to make sure that the main editable documents are not stuffed inside of a directory and are the primary visible files
[08:25] <doctormo> The only directories are perhaps if we end up splitting each section out, I wonder if we could get it to build them automatically
[08:26] <doctormo> BiosElement: Do you know what hands off workflowing is?
[08:26] <BiosElement> I'm 99% sure I've heard of it, 99% sure I used to know what it means. But I can't seem to remember
[08:29] <doctormo> BiosElement: It's where we can just add new files and directories into the right places and have the machinery pick them up, we should need to configure conf.py with each new class, or configure each Makefile for each course.
[08:29] <doctormo> It's a sort of automated systematics.
[08:30] <doctormo> shouldn't*
[08:30] <BiosElement> Ahh, yeah.
[08:30] <doctormo> That should say, we shouldn't need to cofnigure
[08:30] <BiosElement> Actually
[08:30] <BiosElement> conf.py was made by the generator
[08:30] <doctormo> Aye, but I've just had to edit it
[08:30] <BiosElement> Ahh
[08:32] <doctormo> I set the static page to a root path and set a title and a few other things.
[08:33] <doctormo> But fortunatly, it's python, so we can make it more magic
[08:50] <doctormo> BiosElement: OK just commited a stylesheet and some mods for your merging in lp:~doctormo/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat
[08:50] <BiosElement> doctormo, Aight
[08:51] <doctormo> BiosElement: It produces very boring html, not as fancy as the python doc stuff, but we can work up to what we want out of the docs, since my aim is to make sure we can make pds that are clean.
[08:52] <BiosElement> doctormo, Well I don't think we should ignore the html version either. Because I'm sure we'll have classes taught on IRC too
[08:52] <BiosElement> Heck, I'd do some of those sometime
[08:54] <doctormo> Of course not, stylesheets can be very easily substituted for online use, but for building the primary must be clean so all formats are built and then we can publish as required.
[08:55] <BiosElement> Great. Just making sure
[08:56] <BiosElement> doctormo, Want to file a merge request or should I just do it manually?
[08:58] <doctormo> The merge request is formality, you still have to merge manually
[08:59] <BiosElement> Ahh, figures. GImme a sec then
[09:01] <doctormo> I've pushed up rev 6, updated styles
[09:01] <BiosElement> Figures...
[09:01] <BiosElement> I 'just' merged it
[09:02] <BiosElement> Lemme update and merge again
[09:02] <BiosElement> You should be proud of your teaching, a month ago I'd never touched bzr. >.>
[09:03] <doctormo> thanks
[09:03] <doctormo> That really does mean a lot to me
[09:03] <doctormo> althoguh you did have a head start knowing what other vcs are
[09:05] <BiosElement> doctormo, True. I must admit I can't decide if I like git or bzr better at this point. Though git is for sure more popular >.>
[09:05] <doctormo> git is faster and leaner, but bzr is python based and easier to use.
[09:05] <BiosElement> I mostly agree with you
[09:06] <BiosElement> >.>
[09:06] <BiosElement> Not sure about easier to use. It feels the same to me
[09:06] <doctormo> plus, while certain parts of git are perl (write once read never) and certain parts are C, I untimatly think bzr is the better structured.
[09:06] <BiosElement> CSS looks nice though
[09:06] <doctormo> Just not the better mathermatically worked out
[09:07] <BiosElement> So, is this better then .od
[09:07] <BiosElement> *.odt's?
[09:07] <doctormo> you can count on me for style sheets and image ;-) all this programming and marketing is just a day job.
[09:07] <BiosElement> haha, Suggestion
[09:08] <doctormo> Well these files will be 100 times easier to translate, if you can get it to generate pot files for uploading into launchpad's translation service, then you've got a strong contender why it shoudl be used.
[09:08] <BiosElement> Remove the left+right bars on the code box. Because on a print view the text flows over the bar on the right and looks silly
[09:08] <BiosElement> At least if there isn't a solid bar I don't think it'll look horrid
[09:08] <doctormo> BiosElement: That is why we make print css directives.
[09:09] <BiosElement> doctormo, Ahh, Aight. And yes, I do know what that is :P
[09:09] <doctormo> although your going to have to take a screen shot, because my print preview shows no such thing
[09:09] <BiosElement> Hang 1 sec
[09:11] <BiosElement> doctormo, I THINK we can translate to .po files Not sure about .pot
[09:12] <doctormo> Er, you know how translations work right?
[09:12] <doctormo> you make a pot file which contains all the original elements, and then eadch po file is a translation comapred to the pot file
[09:12] <BiosElement> doctormo, More or less. Here's your screenshot. FF Shiretoko latest build http://i32.tinypic.com/23j1pph.png
[09:12] <BiosElement> Yeah. I gathered that from the launchpad help page :P
[09:12] <doctormo> without a pot file, you can't make po files ;-)
[09:13] <doctormo> Ah it's the right side, not the left
[09:16] <BiosElement> Ya know I gotta say this is alot easier to read through then odt too...It even feels better formatted. >.>
[09:16] <BiosElement> Oh FYI, your bash: doctormo image was resized. It was something like 640x500 in the odt
[09:18] <doctormo> I think it's the PRE that causes that btw
[09:18] <doctormo> the overflow problem
[09:18] <BiosElement> Probably. PRE 'should' prevent text-wrapping but if we want this printed it has to wrap
[09:20] <doctormo> My best guess, remove the python-code section use and use some kind of custom class for that text, once it's in <p>'s I can deal with it in css.
[09:21] <BiosElement> The div's are<div class="highlight-python"><pre>
[09:21] <BiosElement> You 'can' style <pre> just like <b> ETC. I can probably find what's needed to enable word-wrapping on the print version
[09:22] <BiosElement> http://users.tkk.fi/tkarvine/pre-wrap-css3-mozilla-opera-ie.html
[09:22] <doctormo> I got it
[09:23] <BiosElement> Great
[09:24] <doctormo> So far with this system I'm concerned with: a) Images being converted to pngs, but not originating as pngs, b) translations, c) pdf published format, d) Common Man Editing
[09:25] <BiosElement> a) Probably a python script can handle that, b) Possible problem but it should be simple enough, c) just a bit more work should solve that d) If needed I volunteer to convert them from .odt or similer format if they get the images to me in a folder.
[09:27] <doctormo> BiosElement: for d) you'd become a single point of failure and attempting to find the best ways of bringing contributors onboard is important. Hell if people want to edit wiki pages and have them commit in, fine.
[09:27] <doctormo> But even wiki is not WYSIWYG
[09:27] <BiosElement> doctormo, Exactly. Which is why I figure most people will be able to learn the format.
[09:28] <doctormo> This is also good for the blind, because one of my students is blind, I have to make for him text files, html files would be even better.
[09:28] <BiosElement> And those who won't, I'm willing to convert it over. And if I die tomorrow someone else can. It's not exactly a difficult skill and I'm sure someone could be found to do it.
[09:30] <BiosElement> I'll also look into some form of WYSIWYG Web Editor later
[09:30] <doctormo> Is it possible to make odts from these source files?
[09:31] <BiosElement> Not sure.
[09:31] <BiosElement> doctormo, http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/119600
[09:31] <BiosElement> 2007 article
[09:32] <BiosElement> It's in the repo's python-odtwriter
[09:33] <doctormo> cool
[09:33] <BiosElement> command is.
[09:33] <BiosElement> rst2odt myinput.txt myoutput.odt
[09:33] <doctormo> Just thinking about ways we could allow _editing_ rather than creation in odt
[09:34] <BiosElement> Don't think it'll work backwords though
[09:34] <doctormo> Your the backwards :-)
[09:34] <BiosElement> heh
[09:36] <BiosElement> I do think we're making a bit of a mountain outta a mole hill though with the syntax. People learn to edit wikipedia all the time. While it does raise the entry barrier, it's not that big a jump and makes everything much easier once you jump it.
[09:37] <BiosElement> Oh doctormo It also supports folders if I didn't mention that.
[09:42] <BiosElement> doctormo, Gotta get some sleep. Do you want me to convert over the rest of your lesson tomorrow?
[09:43] <doctormo> BiosElement: before you go
[09:44] <doctormo> BiosElement: I agree with you but with two important conditions, 1) that there exists a barrier with bzr that is too high anyway, binging that down to common man editing will be harder, but is more important, 2) that when editing these files, that the results are tested before commiting, this required syntax tests
[09:44] <BiosElement> Yeah?
[09:45] <BiosElement> Of course there would be syntax tests
[09:45] <doctormo> So one of the things I'm pondering is how to get bzr easier to aquire without the CLI, your task (as well as converting things and doing the pdf and translation research) is to see if there is a syntax checker.
[09:46] <BiosElement> You never upload untested-broken code to anything but your own experimental repo's
[09:46] <BiosElement> doctormo, BZR has a great GUI >.>
[09:46] <doctormo> If I can get aquasition and pushing methods to work without the CLI, then I'll need some editing for the text files
[09:46] <BiosElement> Olive Bazaar manager or something like that
[09:46] <doctormo> Yea I just used it, it's not that great, it's a bzr manager, when what I need is a project manager.
[09:46] <doctormo> That ties heavily into launchpad.
[09:47] <BiosElement> Don't think we can do a syntax checker because honestly the only way you can tell is by making it and looking at it
[09:48] <BiosElement> We should just require you make html it and check first
[09:48] <BiosElement> The core files for that are not that big and we could even make a little python script if  needed to doubleclick make it >.>
[09:59] <BiosElement> doctormo, http://rst2a.com/ Might be useful
[09:59] <BiosElement> There's also what looks to be nearly WYSIWYG with Gedit. http://textmethod.com/wiki/ReStructuredTextToolsForGedit
[09:59] <BiosElement> And a cheetsheet here. http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/rst/cheatsheet.txt
[09:59] <BiosElement> Now I'm off to sleep, I'll log anything here.
[10:00] <doctormo> BiosElement: Wodnerful
[10:00] <doctormo> Good work tonight
[10:01] <BiosElement> Thanks, Night
[15:12] <switchgirl[H]> hi pleia2
[15:13] <pleia2> hi switchgirl[H]
[15:13] <switchgirl[H]> hope your day is ok
[15:13] <pleia2> it's good, thanks :) hope yours is too
[15:13] <switchgirl[H]> kinda
[15:14] <pleia2> interested in contributing to this project?
[15:14] <switchgirl[H]> is there a way I can learn shell while using windows xp?
[15:15] <pleia2> if you have a shell account somewhere
[15:15] <switchgirl[H]> I mean like a lightweight emulation
[15:15] <pleia2> I don't really know much about windows, but there are some linux environments that can be installed, like cygwin
[15:16] <pleia2> and google tells me there is a bash port for windows
[15:16] <pleia2> http://www.google.com/search?q=bash+on+windows
[15:18] <switchgirl[H]> yeah I am on an eeepc so, looking for something thumbdrivable
[15:20] <pleia2> pendrivelinux.com is pretty decent for guides on that
[15:20] <pleia2> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/index.php?s=ubuntu
[15:20] <switchgirl[H]> thanks
[15:21] <switchgirl[H]> I should ask elsewhere I guess
[15:22] <pleia2> yeah, this channel is for actual course development
[15:22] <pleia2> not many people here for support :)
[15:22] <switchgirl[H]> oh ok
[15:22] <switchgirl[H]> in that case may I /msg you ?
[15:23] <pleia2> yeah, but I'm at work so I am kinda busy
[15:23] <pleia2> #ubuntu is a better place to find support
[15:23] <pleia2> and I've never done anything with usb drives ;)
[15:24] <switchgirl[H]> k, I thought you where American
[15:24] <pleia2> I am
[15:24] <pleia2> it's 10:30 AM, I'm at work
[15:25] <switchgirl[H]> oh. ok
[15:25] <switchgirl[H]> hopes your having a good day
[15:34] <switchgirl[H]> do you guys run courses for absolute beginners
[15:35] <pleia2> yes, you can see our subjects on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[15:35] <pleia2> but we're course developers, loco teams and ubuntu classroom actually run the courses
[15:36] <pleia2> right now we're in the development phase
[15:39] <switchgirl[H]> I understand and I found a more appropriate channel for my questions #ubuntuforums-beginners sorry for hassling you
[15:39] <pleia2> not a hassle at all :)
[19:00] <BiosElement> pleia2, Did you see what we worked on earlier?
[19:01] <pleia2> BiosElement: not really, I need to focus on recruitment and finishing my own course
[19:01] <pleia2> as long as the barrier to entry is kept low, I don't mind what we use
[19:01] <BiosElement> Aight, just trying to make sure everyone's in the loop.
[19:02] <pleia2> and I want to see this get moving soon
[19:02] <pleia2> we've spent like 6 months planning, I'm getting bored :)
[19:02] <pleia2> we have people eager to help out, and still we're talking about formats
[19:03] <pleia2> (and really, I didn't see a problem with odt to pdf)
[19:03] <BiosElement> Yeah, I could see how that would be frustrating.
[19:04] <dinda> BiosElement: which course are you working on?
[19:05] <BiosElement> dinda, I'm working on the "How to write/teach a course" course that really needs a better name >.>
[19:05] <pleia2> it's actually "how to teach Ubuntu"
[19:05] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/TeachingTopics
[19:05] <dinda> BiosElement: how bout something simple like "How to develop courses"
[19:06] <BiosElement> pleia2, Thanks. Didn't know there was an actual name. doctormo didn't mention it >.>
[19:06] <pleia2> BiosElement: that wiki page is all yours :)
[19:07] <BiosElement> dinda, Thanks for the suggestion though.
[19:18] <pranav1> i need help with installation of ubuntu
[19:19] <pleia2> pranav1: you'll want to check out #ubuntu
[19:19] <pranav1> k
[19:21] <ibuclaw> BiosElement, likewise, not everyone is an effective teacher ;)
[19:21] <BiosElement> Heh, you did fine.
[19:24] <pleia2> we should have a team meeting
[19:24] <pleia2> BiosElement: are you busy tonight?
[19:24] <pleia2> doctormo_: how about you? meeting tonight?
[19:24] <pleia2> tonight == 5.5 hours from now
[19:25] <BiosElement> Shouldn't be but I 'may' be held up at the dentist.
[19:25] <pleia2> we can make it later if you want
[19:25] <pleia2> I'll be around all night
[19:26] <BiosElement> Ahh, maybe in 6.5 hours and It shouldn't be a problem.
[21:10] <dinda> pleia2: is there a meeting today?
[21:10] <pleia2> dinda: dunno, doctormo_ wandered off
[21:10] <pleia2> we didn't have anything planned, but I'm hoping if we can get some people together...
[21:11] <dinda> pleia2: I've been busy but ready to find out what the stopping points are for you folks
[21:12] <pleia2> I think right now we are trying to figure out what format to use for course development
[21:12] <pleia2> doctormo_ is using odt and pdf, which I think is fine
[21:12] <pleia2> but BiosElement doesn't like it
[21:14] <dinda> Moodle works best with it's own html but it does seem to prefer html. . .
[21:14] <dinda> pdfs are okay for final things which need to be printed but then you just get a course that's a bunch of linked pdfs
[21:15] <pleia2> yeah, so we've been putting the .odt files in bzr and releasing the courses as pdfs generated from that
[21:16] <pleia2> presumably we'd generate the html from that odt too, for moodle
[21:19] <pleia2> or go with another format entirely, but the fear is barrier to entry :)
[21:23] <dinda> anything involving bzr is a serious barrier to entry
[21:25] <pleia2> BiosElement is working on some super easy instructions
[21:25] <pleia2> we need something for sharing and revision control
[21:28] <paultag> I think I am teaching Bash tomorrow afternoon
[21:28] <paultag> looking forward to it
[21:28] <pleia2> paultag: do you have a document you're teaching from?
[21:28] <paultag> pleia2: on meatspace paper.
[21:29] <paultag> pleia2: I am going to write it up + more after I teach it
[21:29] <pleia2> paultag: ok cool, let me know if you need help getting it into the format doctormo_ has developed
[21:29] <paultag> pleia2: its a 1:15 long session, so I am freebasing some of it in class. I am good at that
[21:29] <paultag> pleia2: Please, I will need help
[21:29]  * pleia2 nods
[21:30] <pleia2> doctormo_: I am better at helping, reviewing and recruiting than writing courses
[21:36] <doctormo_> hey
[21:37] <pleia2> hey :)
[21:37] <BiosElement> Hey, I'm around but I've gotta head out in just a bit.
[21:39] <doctormo_> pleia2: The work done for the formating, it's a kind of research. I want to exlore different ways of formatting.
[21:40] <doctormo_> pleia2: The problem with odt is that it's bad for translations, bad for modualisation, terrible for centralisation of styles and formatting.
[21:40] <pleia2> BiosElement, doctormo_, will you both be around at 9EDT?
[21:40] <pleia2> doctormo_: ah ok
[21:40] <doctormo_> So keeping an eye out for other ideas I felt was useful.
[21:40] <BiosElement> pleia2, I should be yes
[21:40] <doctormo_> I will be
[21:41] <pleia2> ok, let's discuss then
[21:42] <doctormo_> dinda: There may be a way to reduce the barrier to entry for bzr
[21:43] <dinda> doctormo_: how so?
[21:47] <doctormo_> dinda: A nautilus plugin and some clever slight of the hand. Basically using XDG directories with a specified Projects directory you display a nautilus button that allows people to get involved with a project. This makes required dirs, stores important information, downloads the development focus and allows downloading of other branches too.
[21:49] <paultag> doctormo_: pleia2 do we have an example ( completed ) lesson about? I saw one last time I asked, but forgot the link
[21:49] <doctormo_> paultag: about the bzr stuff?
[21:49] <paultag> doctormo_: Whatever you have :)
[21:50] <doctormo_> paultag: There are irc logs and BiosElement is writing it up
[21:50] <paultag> doctormo_: I'd love to take a peek
[21:51] <pleia2> paultag: an example of the final lessons? doctormo_ has published several already on his blog
[21:51] <pleia2> the latest: http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/systems-administration-network-infrastructure/
[21:53] <paultag> thanks :)
[21:53] <pleia2> they are all linked to here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics (have "Done" written after the links)
[22:03] <paultag> BBL thank you again pleia2
[22:25] <doctormo_> BiosElement, pleia2: have you seen http://zim-wiki.org/Usage/VersionControl.html ? facinating project.
[23:32] <Vantrax> good morning all
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo Vantrax
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> I see the test server was full
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> I made more space
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> but I am having problems with dns =(
[23:35] <Vantrax> thats a good thing, means its getting used:P
[23:35] <doctormo> Hey Vantrax and bodhi_zazen!
[23:37] <Vantrax> hi mo
[23:38] <doctormo> BiosElement is doing some research into possible source formats from which publishing into pdf/html/wiki is possible. Your thoughts please.
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo doctormo
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> PDF is nice, but sometimes of poor quality in terms of images
[23:45] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: true, depends how it's made of course.
[23:46] <doctormo> Tonght's meeting should be more about source formats though
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> What time is the meeting tonight ?
[23:48] <doctormo> 9pm EDT