[00:19] <dinda> does anyone here know anything about edubuntu?
[00:20] <dinda> i.e. anyone use it?
[00:22] <doctormo> dinda: No, it's not a healthy project from what I've heard. Although that's been from the OLPC guys
[00:23] <dinda> doctormo: they've tried to get the community team running again but it's been slow
[00:24] <doctormo> It can be, communities are like that. Although Walter Bender would love to get etoys and sugar working on edubuntu. That's about as much as I know.
[00:25] <dinda> yes, the olpc and sugar labs aspect is interesting
[00:31] <dinda> in other news just heard from a guy in the LA area who is starting a non-profit and wants to give Ubuntu sys admin training
[00:36] <BiosElement> I'm back from the dentist if anyone needs me. Apparently I'll live after a root canal >.>
[00:36] <doctormo> dinda: Interesting, anything to collaberate?
[00:38] <dinda> doctormo: I think he will be very interested in helping develop resources
[00:56] <doctormo> That sounds good
[00:59] <pleia2> I've spoken to LaserJock some talking about this team and edubuntu
[01:00] <pleia2> but it seemed like he's got his hands full with the attempt to get the edubuntu community running again, if possible
[01:19] <doctormo> be back soon
[01:38] <doctormo> OK back
[01:39] <doctormo> Ready for meeting
[01:40] <tiozinho> hi
[01:46] <doctormo> hi
[01:52] <pleia2> BiosElement: you about?
[01:52] <BiosElement> pleia2, Yep
[01:52] <pleia2> ok, #ubuntu-meeting is free during this upcoming timeslot so we're good
[02:01] <pleia2> k, we're started :)
[02:48] <BiosElement> Afraid I've gotta split, I'll read the rest of the meeting logs when I get back.
[03:05] <pleia2> dinda: let me know if you have any trouble logging in or don't actually have admin (looks like things are fine, though)
[03:06] <dinda> pleia2: do you know if there is any structure around course numbering yet?
[03:06] <dinda> pleia2: the shortname or course id fields?
[03:07] <pleia2> all I know so far is the bzr structure we have
[03:07] <pleia2> 5 core topics
[03:08] <pleia2> for instance
[03:08] <pleia2> |-- systems-admin
[03:08] <pleia2> |   |-- 01 - command line
[03:08] <pleia2> |   |-- 02 - computer basics
[03:08] <pleia2> etc
[03:08] <pleia2> |-- desktop
[03:08] <pleia2> |   |-- 01 - desktop familiarity
[03:08] <pleia2> does that help?
[03:08] <dinda> okay, so that is something that needs to be addressed - these are the field in the moodle database when you create a new course
[03:09] <dinda> these are different, think of like college course numbering 101, 102, 303, etc
[03:09] <dinda> each course has to have  a unique course #
[03:09] <pleia2> ah ok
[03:10] <dinda> we use course starting dates like 1001_09142009
[03:10] <dinda> don't worry, I'll make a list of these and we can discuss them in the next meeting
[03:10] <dinda> bodhi_zazen may have some experience in that area as well
[03:10] <pleia2> ok, great :)
[03:11] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[03:11] <bodhi_zazen> lolwut
[03:11] <pleia2> hey bodhi_zazen :)
[03:11] <pleia2> you missed the meeting!
[03:11] <pleia2> hehe
[03:11] <bodhi_zazen> indeed :(
[03:12] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: howdy!
[03:12] <bodhi_zazen> good to see you dinda
[03:12] <bodhi_zazen> and pleia2 =)
[03:13] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: was just creating a course on Moodle and wondering if you have a schema for course id #s?
[03:14] <bodhi_zazen> no, I wish I knew moodle better then I do , lol
[03:15] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: no problem - I'm making a list of things to discuss, decide next meeting
[03:16] <pleia2> 21:59:47 < dinda> I'll take an action to be here next Monday evening, same bat time to answer any getting started questions
[03:16] <pleia2> ^^ I'll add this to our schedule
[03:16] <pleia2> I won't be around (giving a lug presentation) but I'll catch up later
[03:17] <bodhi_zazen> LUG, nice
[03:18] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: yeah, I'm speaking at a conference next month and am soooooo scared, so I am doing another lug talk
[03:18] <dinda> pleia2: more talks!  you're so popular
[03:18] <pleia2> dinda: yeah, people found out I actually will speak if nagged, darn it :)
[03:18] <pleia2> I should have kept that a secret!
[03:18] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: why scared ?
[03:18] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: I'm very shy :)
[03:18] <bodhi_zazen> you will be just fine, better then most I am sure
[03:19] <bodhi_zazen> you , shy ?
[03:19] <bodhi_zazen> lol
[03:19] <dinda> pleia2: so am I!  public speaking is all an act
[03:19] <pleia2> yeah, turns out I'm actually not that bad at it
[03:19] <bodhi_zazen> everyone is shy at public speaking, just relax and be yourself
[03:19] <pleia2> oh no, I'm shy in genral :)
[03:22] <bodhi_zazen> Public speaking is hard at first, too bad we do not get more exposure in grade / high school
[03:22] <bodhi_zazen> For me the key is to rehearse the presentation once or twice and be familiar with the topic
[03:23] <pleia2> I actually had to do a fair amount in high school, had many sleepless nights before presentations
[03:23] <bodhi_zazen> it is otherwise not too bad
[03:23] <dinda> I hated public speaking until I started teaching a college course, then had no choice
[03:24] <dinda> the first time I heard someone ask, "Professor Lopez. . ."  I turned around b/c I didn't think they were referring to me
[03:25] <bodhi_zazen> lol
[03:25] <dinda> the first big conference talk was pretty nerve racking though
[03:26] <pleia2> hehe
[03:26] <bodhi_zazen> I would not say I hated it, but in my profession I was required to do teaching. I do public speaking professionally now and it is no more difficult then anything else I do
[03:26]  * pleia2 starts with a little conference :)
[03:26] <bodhi_zazen> At first I was very nervous and self conscious
[03:29] <dinda> it helps me if I have a projector or laptop/computer to help hide behind
[03:31] <pleia2> I need to watch some other people speak, at my last presentation I was like "oh no, I am looking at my laptop too much, I should look at the audience, where are my notes! hmmm I should maybe look at the projection screen and point to stuff?"
[03:31] <dinda> my big trick is to focus on folks foreheads instead of their eyes
[03:32] <dinda> to them it looks like you're looking at them but you can still hide and not see theme looking at you
[03:32] <bodhi_zazen> Men have it easier in that regard, we have to think along similar lines all the time =)
[03:33] <bodhi_zazen> I try to shift my focus between people every 20-30 seconds
[03:33] <pleia2> lol
[03:33] <bodhi_zazen> and if I see people falling asleep, I know I am droning on, which happens often
[03:34] <bodhi_zazen> so I try to be more lively and / or skip to the next topic
[03:34] <bodhi_zazen> I encourage questions during my talk as it keeps people more engaged
[03:34] <pleia2> me too
[03:34] <pleia2> I also ask questions to the audience
[03:35] <bodhi_zazen> yes, keep it broad
[03:35] <pleia2> like my sneaky question in my foss involvement talk, where the answer from everyone is "I was introduced to foss by my dorm buddy"
[03:35] <bodhi_zazen> I am going to move to the next topic, any questions on the first one ?
[03:35] <pleia2> and I say "that's the problem! we need fewer people learning about it in dorm rooms! get into the real world!"
[03:35] <pleia2> :)
[03:35] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[03:36] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think of FOSS when I reflect on lessons learned in dorm rooms
[03:36] <pleia2> lol
[03:37] <bodhi_zazen> when I think of FOSS and college days I think Unix Mainframe, the one with the cute terminal with glowing green text
[03:39] <BiosElement> I'm back now, sorry I vanished earlier
[03:40] <bodhi_zazen> wb Bis
[03:40] <bodhi_zazen> BiosElement:
[03:41] <BiosElement> haha, You were close bodhi :P
[03:46] <Vantrax> sorry I missed the meeting, had one on at work unfortunately
[03:46] <Vantrax> Couldnt miss it after having a few weeks off with the new bub
[03:47] <pleia2> no problem, it was mostly just groundwork for further discussion
[03:47] <pleia2> we'd sorta been talking about it in here on and off the past few days, I wanted to get some of the key folks together in a more formal setting to start hashing things out
[03:48] <pleia2> I posted details to the list, so you can catch up :)
[04:03] <pleia2> dinda: awesome!
[04:14] <BiosElement> I'm doing some research into formats + CMS/LMS Support for said formats.
[04:47] <dinda> night all
[04:47] <BiosElement> Night dinda
[08:22] <BiosElement> doctormo_, You about?
[08:22] <doctormo_> BiosElement: yes
[08:23] <BiosElement> doctormo_, I've looked over DocBook. Quite frankly, I think it's a mess, a step backword and it'd be even more confusing. >.>
[08:24] <doctormo_> BiosElement: Can you show me an example?
[08:24] <BiosElement> Oh, and it needs compiled too. >.>
[08:25] <doctormo_> What I'd like to see is that single class in both formats
[08:25] <BiosElement> I found the ubuntu community docs on it. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocBook
[08:27] <BiosElement> Note that it DOES support make to html, pdf and txt.
[08:30] <doctormo_> BiosElement: And how easy/possible would it be to convert between DocBook and Sphinx?
[08:30] <BiosElement> It does however feel to me WAY more complicated to even get started. I've no idea where to even start writing an "beginners guide to docbook".
[08:31] <BiosElement> doctormo_, I'm not sure. Simple enough but time consuming. Either by hand or a python script to convert it over which we'd have to code.
[08:32] <BiosElement> Ya know this doc of theirs is already off-putting. Whole section on "HTML and SGML vs. XML"
[08:32] <BiosElement> And then they say "t doesn't really matter whether you use SGML or XML."
[08:33] <BiosElement> And I've just gotten to 1.2. of the first section :S
[08:35] <BiosElement> doctormo_, I found a script posted on the sphinx-dev mailing list to convert from docbook to sphinx.
[08:35] <doctormo_> interesting, then perhaps it's not so important if things can be converted
[08:36] <BiosElement> doctormo_, Well maybe not but from what I can tell, docbook is the old tried and tested and sphinx is more up and coming.
[08:37] <doctormo_> BiosElement: OK, well if we can do a side by side comparision of the same content in both formats it might help picking one and the rationale for it
[08:38] <BiosElement> I may have to leave that up to someone who's used it before. because the docs are horrible. >.>
[08:40] <BiosElement> Well wait, I may have it working...Not sure how it worked but I guess it did.
[08:46] <BiosElement> doctormo_, Question: Do we want to be "writing" docs or do we want to be "coding" docs? Because I feel the docbook is more "code" compared to sphinx. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it is a big deal.
[08:47] <doctormo_> Depends on how good the GUIs are for both
[08:48] <BiosElement> GUI? What's that? The best GUI docbook has is code highlighting >.>
[08:48] <BiosElement> At least from what I've found so far. >.>
[08:49] <doctormo_> pleia2 might be able to answer that, from what she was describing, it seemed like the best thing since sliced bread. But XML isn't editor friendly
[08:49] <doctormo_> So I guessed that if pleia2 said it was easy, it must have a gui
[08:50] <BiosElement> doctormo_, pleia2 I think said something about bluefish which is just syntax highlighting.
[08:51] <BiosElement> And don't get me wrong, I love highlighting but it's about as user friendly as a plain text doc >.>
[08:51] <BiosElement> The only real "GUI" I've found so far is proprietary with a "personal" version for free. Closed source. Figures
[08:54] <doctormo_> If it's XML, then it's less. You have to consider the ability for coruption. Which with XML is higher that plain text, which is usually adaptive to errors.
[08:54] <doctormo_> Plus XML would be worse for diffs (although not as bad as odf)
[08:56] <BiosElement> doctormo_, Very much worse for diffs. Honestly I'm trying to like it but...It's xml. It nags you about a single space >.> I've been spoiled by python.
[08:56] <BiosElement> Add a space with python and it goes "Oh, ok. I'm sure you meant to remove that space so lemme do that for you! Here's what you wanted."
[08:58] <BiosElement> doctormo_, One thing going for docbook is it's Oreilly's format of choice.
[09:00] <EricFisher> Hi, if i want ask a question about apt-get? which channel is appropriate? Thanks.
[09:02] <BiosElement> EricFisher, You're looking for #ubuntu
[09:02] <EricFisher> thx,8
[09:08] <BiosElement> doctormo_, This is basically xml docbook format. http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/introduction.xml
[09:09] <EricFisher> well, too many people in #ubuntu. who knows how to find the source package after install the deb?
[09:10] <doctormo_> EricFisher: You can use `apt-get source [package-name]` to get the source of any deb that you have installed via the repositories (assuming sources are available)
[09:12] <EricFisher> i see. but after i installed the package,  does the deb exist in my machine? where is it?
[09:18] <doctormo_> EricFisher: I see, the downloaded source deb or binary deb?
[09:18] <EricFisher> binary deb
[09:18] <doctormo_> EricFisher: /var/cache/apt/archive/
[09:19] <doctormo_> EricFisher: Are you doing anything interesting with the deb cache?
[09:20] <EricFisher> no, actually, I just need to get the source file about a deb. but i'm not familiar with it.
[09:21] <EricFisher> so what about the src deb?  where should it be?
[09:21] <doctormo_> EricFisher: There is no src deb.
[09:22] <doctormo_> EricFisher: The debs are either compiled binaries, or tar.gz files with .changes and .debdiff companion files.
[09:22] <EricFisher> uh, thx
[09:23] <doctormo_> EricFisher: The best thing to do is to ask in #ubuntu-motu as they deal with apt for development, and I assume that's what your trying to do.
[09:26] <BiosElement> FYI I'm still toying with docbook
[09:26] <BiosElement> It does seem to have a huge backing, particularly commercial.
[09:34] <doctormo_> BiosElement: That was the consideration
[09:35] <BiosElement> Yeah, Problem is the only reason I see them saying they like it is because they're comparing it to a workflow of .doc's. Also they're mainly using it because it's not likely to vanish quickly. I should also note they use svn which kinda suggests they're not quick on updating things >.>
[09:37] <BiosElement> My opinion is that docbook is just going to make things stupidly complex. You even need tags for paragraphs...
[09:39] <doctormo_> BiosElement: Continue working on the sphinx workflow, if it can be made easy enough, then we can use that and it doesn't matter since it looks like it's possible to move to docbook and back anyway.
[09:39] <doctormo_> BiosElement: One thing I would say, what do you think to seperating out each section into it's own file?
[09:39] <BiosElement> Seen my latest bzr push about 15 hours ago?
[09:39] <doctormo_> prob not
[09:40] <BiosElement> Each class gets it's own folder, each section also get's it's own folder and inside that there's the section index + images folder for that section
[09:40] <doctormo_> BiosElement: I notice pngs are still there. >:-)
[09:41] <BiosElement> >.>
[09:44] <BiosElement> I'm off. and pleia2 or someone from the docs team or whoever likes docbook needs to explain why paragraph tags are not a bad thing. If that's a non-issue then I'll support whatever is chosen. Otherwise I don't see the point in docbook.
[09:47] <BiosElement> Off to sleep now. Lemme know what you think.
[10:41] <doctormo_> BiosElement: did you go?
[10:41] <doctormo_> damn ages ago
[10:56] <doctormo> Anyway I've sent a message documenting revised structure
[13:27] <pleia2> doctormo: I never said DocBook was easy, I said I'd dabbled with it once before a few years ago and I'd be willing to learn it
[13:28] <pleia2> and it was dinda who used bluefish, I only ever used vim (which supports docbook syntax highlighting)
[13:32] <pleia2> my point was that it's pretty much a foss standard for documentation development, so there are tools that support it, lots of ways to export it to other formats, lots of people are familiar with it, or, who, like myself feel it's a valuable skill to have
[14:11] <doctormo> pleia2: I agree, having it as reliable format is important and hell it's designed for this purpos. Plus there is a script to turn it into sphinx if we find that produces different, more interesting outputs.
[14:12] <doctormo> pleia2: We'd need to have a strong policy on checking the docbook xml format for correctness and formating (for best diffs), which can be added to bzr
[14:14] <pleia2> we should see what other teams do
[14:15] <doctormo> bbl
[15:39] <BiosElement> pleia2, Apologies if I mixed up who suggested docbook, I was not entirely sure.
[15:43] <dinda> BiosElement: i think i mentioned it was currenlty being used by the Doc team and others
[15:43] <dinda> Btw - I've received three leads on Moodle helpers!  :)
[15:44] <BiosElement> Great!
[15:52] <BiosElement> FYI pleia2 dinda Docbook files can be converted to .pot files with xml2pot apparentlty.
[15:53] <pleia2> yeah, docbook can be converted to pretty much anything :)
[15:56] <BiosElement> pleia2, I noticed. I'm not sure I like it, mostly because it's xml but it does have it's strong points.
[15:58] <dinda> BiosElement: I'm totally with you.  I hate docbook but like the things it does.  We use it for the Desktop course materials.
[15:58] <dinda> it was not a fun process learning it either
[16:27] <BiosElement> dinda, I've got no problem learning it and writing a how-to course, but if it'll take that much work then there needs to be strong advantages >.>
[16:28] <dinda> BiosElement: biggest advantage is that the format plays well with Bzr, you can mix and match chapters/sections, and easy to translate via po files
[16:32] <BiosElement> dinda, the po files are the only real advantage over anything else though chapters/sections may be useful
[16:33] <dinda> BiosElement: several folks last night mentioned revision control - so if you want RCS and BZR then docbook also makes that easy but any xml schema will do that as well
[16:33] <dinda> Moodle has no default RCS
[16:34] <BiosElement> dinda, I didn't even consider moodle an option for the docs because of that. The other option Sphinx has the same advantage with RCS
[16:35] <dinda> either way, those are just more barriers to entry. . .if someone wanted to create a course directly in Moodle, they should be able to - it was designed for a low barrier
[16:36] <dinda> if the team/project decides they want to use RCS or any other format other than someone typing directly into the Moodle html editor, then you start raising that barrier
[16:38] <BiosElement> dinda, I get what your saying but bzr and whatever we choose won't have a high entry level. We're not talking about a beginner off the street can write courses. It's safe to assume anyone who has something valuable to teach won't mind spending 15 minutes figuring the system out.
[16:39] <dinda> BiosElement: Bzr takes more than 15 minutes!
[16:39] <BiosElement> dinda, IRC lessons do, but a single page guide wouldn't take 15min to read and understand.
[16:40] <dinda> BiosElement: for non-technical folks it is a HUGE barrier, trust me
[16:40] <BiosElement> As is docbook and moodle. >.>
[16:41] <dinda> correct, which is why a kiss method of just having folks create the courses within Moodle should be an option
[16:42] <pleia2> good idea :)
[16:43] <pleia2> I really do like the pdf deployed ones too, so maybe we can have multiple ways of contributing? the long route for high-quality docbook-happy ones, and also an option to contribute directly through moodle (giving some of us the opportunity to convert to docbook later if we want)
[17:22] <L1nUX1z3R> hi
[17:22] <L1nUX1z3R> what was the last topic?
[17:24] <BiosElement> Eh, I thought the point of this was to keep one standard format, not going right back to having 30 different ways of doing everything >.>
[17:31] <sharath> there
[17:31] <sharath> hie
[17:33] <pleia2> hi
[17:35] <bharath> Hey sharath
[18:04] <doctormo> dinda, BiosElement, have you guys been debating this morning?
[18:06] <BiosElement> Ahh, yeah. Between docbook/moddle and bzr/sphinx basically
[18:07] <doctormo> I'm leaning towards bzr/moodle/docbook myself right now.
[18:07] <doctormo> I know dinda doesn't like the idea of devel on bzr, but it can be made eaiser.
[18:19] <BiosElement> One thing I should note real quick
[18:19] <BiosElement> Is that docbook is an xml format, not indended for reading in pure text while sphinx was designed to be readable in both .rst/.txt and .html/.pdf.
[18:47] <BiosElement> Wow, I really have to say docbook is the same as editing xml files by hand...Which is painful :S
[18:57] <pleia2> BiosElement: might want to ask some doc people who use it what editors they use
[18:57] <pleia2> it doesn't have to be edited by hand
[18:58] <BiosElement> pleia2, I've been looking into that. The only GUI editor I could find died back in 2005 and is very crash prone. >.>
[18:59] <pleia2> lyx?
[18:59] <dinda> Bluefish works
[18:59] <pleia2> this is the page the Training team put some editor ideas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/Tools
[19:00] <BiosElement> pleia2, I'll look into it. I'm currently poking through the docteam's pages on the ubuntu wiki. Lots of 404 pages >.>
[19:01] <pleia2> oh yes, bluefish seems to work nicely
[19:01] <BiosElement> Yeah, I saw that pleia2. It basically sums up what I thought already.
[19:02] <pleia2> BiosElement: you can probably also ask in #ubuntu-doc
[19:02] <BiosElement> pleia2, Will do.
[19:05] <BiosElement> Bluefish is pretty decent.
[19:05] <BiosElement> I still can't stop thinking that this is going to be difficult for people to figure out >.>
[19:08] <pleia2> is sphinx really that much easier?
[19:08] <pleia2> if it is, that's fine, it's why I asked
[19:10] <BiosElement> pleia2, Lemme show you a sphinx file real quick.
[19:11] <pleia2> no need (I'm at work anyway) I'm just asking :)
[19:12] <pleia2> the reason I suggested docbook was the whole "If we're going to make contributors use a format, have them use a popular one"
[19:12] <pleia2> but if it's really that awful, we don't have to
[19:12] <BiosElement> Ahh, I just think sphinx is much cleaner to format. It also does not use xml style tags and can be read from .txt format as easily as from .html or .pdf
[19:13] <BiosElement> pleia2, According to the wiki, docteam recommends gedit. Which is text-highlighting >.>
[19:13] <pleia2> do you want me to go into #ubuntu-doc and ask them? :)
[19:13] <pleia2> they are friendly, I promise!
[19:14] <BiosElement> haha, You can. Iwas going to but got distracted by the wiki docs >.<
[19:14] <pleia2> oh, I can't right now
[19:14] <pleia2> I'll have to do it later, or tomorrow
[19:14] <BiosElement> Well i will then.
[21:10] <BiosElement> doctormo, are you about?
[21:22] <BiosElement> Question: Which is more important? Simple Syntax & Shorter Learning Curve or XML Standard Syntax + 14-15 years of use + conformity with the current ubuntu doc team's standards?
[21:23] <dinda> BiosElement: trick question, depends on your priorties. . .
[21:23] <BiosElement> dinda, I know it is. I'm just trying to layout the pro's/cons as simply as possible.
[21:23] <dinda> BiosElement: doc team is about to change
[21:24] <BiosElement> What do you mean?
[21:24] <dinda> BiosElement: they are looking possibly going with the new system that upstream GNOME is transtitioning over to - mallard, I believe
[21:25] <dinda> BiosElement: but the question is worth asking, how much of their material can be reused in the learning project
[21:26] <dinda> if so, then compatiblity is important, if not, then what they do doesn't matter
[21:26] <BiosElement> dinda, I'm not thinking re-use, I'm thinking more that the tasks are generally the same and so we may as well teach people a skill that will benifit them or they may already know from past work
[21:27] <dinda> The biggest problem always seems to be in getting folks to develop course materials - so making that as easy as possible seem key - imho
[21:28] <dinda> BiosElement: even on the doc team there are relatively few key contirbutors who know the toolchain really well. . .
[21:29] <dinda> BiosElement: this is an issue that comes up regularly as the learning curve for new contributors keeps participation low from even enthusiastic new potential contributors
[21:29] <BiosElement> It'd be nice if someone would volunteer to try out sphinx and tell me how hard they think it is >.>
[21:29] <dinda> BiosElement: is it a wiki page I can just edit?
[21:30] <BiosElement> No, first you create a .rst file and edit it as a .txt with the styling, then you run "make html" on the makefile. I can get you my bzr branch with everything setup if you want
[21:32] <dinda> BiosElement: I got 30 minutes as I play teaching assistant for a live course - point me in the right direction
[21:32] <BiosElement> Just a sec dinda
[21:33] <BiosElement> The bzr branch is lp:~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat
[21:33] <BiosElement> You will need to install a couple packages, let me go get the names
[21:33] <dinda> BiosElement: I can already tell you, when you start sending me to Bzr for things, there's an issue but I'll play along for testing purposes ;)
[21:34] <BiosElement> hehe, I'll make a template file in a zip if we decide to use it
[21:34] <dinda> BiosElement: there's your first test - how many steps does it take to get me started?
[21:35] <BiosElement> Download the template, run a single console command to install packages, edit the file as you want, cd to the directory and run "make html" - done
[21:35] <BiosElement> And that last step can be done with a python script
[21:36] <BiosElement> Command is sudo apt-get install python-sphinx
[21:36] <BiosElement> That should get you everything you need.
[21:37] <dinda> installing
[21:39] <dinda> install complete
[21:39] <BiosElement> Great
[21:41] <BiosElement> I'd recommend after you bzr it to go to the systems-admin folder. The "build" folder is where all the html ends up and the makefile is in the systems-admin directory.
[21:41] <BiosElement> Again a python script can make that a doubleclick
[21:45] <dinda> BiosElement: what do you mean by "bzr it"?
[21:46] <BiosElement> bzr branch lp:~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat
[21:46] <BiosElement> Sorry I wasn't very clear
[21:46] <dinda> BiosElement: you gotta think in terms of steps, as in step 1, open a terminal and run this command, step 2. ???
[21:47] <BiosElement> I'll write up a quick guide then >.>
[21:47] <dinda> so step 2 is:  after the install is complete, type this command:  bzr branch lp:~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat  ??
[21:48] <BiosElement> Yes
[21:49] <dinda> step 3.  enter you pass key into the resulting popup window
[21:50] <dinda> step 4 - cd to ?? where
[21:50] <BiosElement> I just typed it up a tad differently
[21:50] <BiosElement> cd ~/Desktop
[21:50] <BiosElement> bzr branch lp:~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat
[21:51] <BiosElement> You will now have a folder on your desktop named sphnixformat. Inside you will find other courses. Each course folder has it's own makefile which you can run by typing
[21:51] <BiosElement> cd ~/Desktop/sphinxformat/<coursefoldername>
[21:51] <BiosElement> make html
[21:51] <BiosElement> There. It'll be better once I get the template course made.
[21:52] <dinda> step 5 - cd ~/Desktop - done
[21:53] <dinda> step 6 - bzr branch lp:~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/sphnixformat   done
[21:54] <BiosElement> I recommend the system-admin course because that's what we've gotten the most work done on currently
[21:55] <dinda> step 7 - cd ~/Desktop/sphnixformat/systems-admin
[21:55] <dinda> step 8 - make.html
[21:56] <dinda> BiosElement: step 8 - command not found
[21:56] <BiosElement> No ',' And you do that whenever you want to see the html formatting. After I started I only did it about twice to double check
[21:56] <BiosElement> *No '.'
[21:58] <dinda> okay, i've got the files - how do I edit with sphnix?
[21:58] <dinda> BiosElement: you've got 2 minutes ;)
[21:59] <BiosElement> heh, in the systems-admin/source/01-commandline folder there's a index.rst file. You can open that with any text editor and start editing.
[22:00] <BiosElement> ### underlines are level 1 headers, *** underlines are level 2 headers, surround words with *one* asterisk for italics, **two* * for bold, and so forth.
[22:01] <dinda> BiosElement: wow - that's ugly text
[22:01] <BiosElement> >.>
[22:05] <dinda> BiosElement: have you seen the flossmanuals site?  ;)
[22:05] <BiosElement> Do I want too? :P
[22:06] <BiosElement> Ahh yes, Twiki.
[22:06] <dinda> it's a wiki-based editing/publishing environment for FLOSS manuals
[22:06] <BiosElement> The project that had a takeover by the copyright owner
[22:07] <dinda> BiosElement: which project?  the whole FM one? or a certain title?
[22:07] <BiosElement> The Twiki project. Last I heard they were making a branch after the "owner" banned all the devs from the site because they didn't want him to make a commercial version
[22:09] <BiosElement> Not sure I'd want to start a project with Twiki just because I'm not sure how active it is anymore.
[22:12] <BiosElement> Simply put the doc team are developing a system "just" for the yelp powered docs so I don't think it'll be very easy to apply for our uses
[22:12] <BiosElement> Although I will note that it looks totally awesome
[22:29] <doctormo> BiosElement: I'm trying to think about the problem some more. To me DocBook xml is attractive as a source format simply because it is xml, it's controlable and elements can be structured from a computer-editing standpoint.
[22:29] <doctormo> Although human editing suffers it
[22:29] <BiosElement> doctormo, Here's further food for thought
[22:30] <BiosElement> The doc team is jumping ship from docbook
[22:30] <BiosElement> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml
[22:30] <BiosElement> The bottom has some of their reasons
[22:32] <dinda> BiosElement: yes, I met with ShaunM  this summer at a conference
[22:33] <BiosElement> Yeah, he's put alot of thought into it and basically summed up my complaints
[22:33] <dinda> BiosElement: he and the whole GNOME doc team - all 4 of them were trying to figure out how to make it easier for newbs
[22:33] <BiosElement> Yeah
[22:34] <BiosElement> Their solution is at least 6 months away from 1.0 and I'm not sure we'd be able to use it but it does look interesting.
[22:35]  * dinda recalls there was some beer drinking involved in that weekend so I'm a bit fuzzy on my mallard recollections. . .
[22:35] <dinda> there were woolly mammoths as well as ducks too . .
[22:35] <BiosElement> hehe
[22:36] <dinda> but yes, they have done some awesome work and are really good folks to work with
[22:39] <BiosElement> Here's the question though. Will we really gain from xml doctormo or is it just something "nice" to have?
[22:51] <doctormo> BiosElement: Well ShaunM seems to think it's a core part of being able to mix and match sections, and I have to agree.
[22:51] <doctormo> But more than that, it's more likely that we'd be able to write a simple gtk based tool for doing the editing.
[22:52] <BiosElement> With docbook or Mallard?
[22:53] <doctormo> BiosElement: Either TBH
[22:54] <BiosElement> And FYI, I'll look into a script to convert docbook/mallard/xml to sphinx. Shouldn't be difficult and may come in handy.
[22:54] <doctormo> Yep
[22:56] <BiosElement> EclipseIDE may have xml editing too
[22:57] <BiosElement> doctormo, http://i32.tinypic.com/9sc8qb.png
[23:00] <BiosElement> I scared him away! man I'm awesome at doing that >.>