=== Ahmuck-Sr is now known as Ahmuck [02:20] anybody alive? [02:21] yes [02:22] good to know somebody is :-) [02:23] Hey hey LaserJock [02:28] hi sbalneav [02:28] sbalneav: how's it going? [02:43] so uh yeah, we really need to get Karmic going here [02:45] what's wrong with karmic? [02:45] well, as of right now there's no release [02:45] i assume that a doc has been worked on about using different techs for "classroom" [02:46] I'm trying to get an Alpha 6 out but it's sketchy [02:47] I'm afraid we're going to have a working sabayon, and a cool LTSP-cluster, but then have no .iso :( [02:48] i wouldn't consider that a bad thing [02:48] who needs releases [02:48] well, Edubuntu will die if it doesn't release [02:48] people will look for an .iso [02:49] they don't understand or don't want to get things via a network connection [02:49] CrunchBang Linux 9.04.01 Released [02:49] Wednesday, July 8th, 2009 [02:49] some people, I should say [02:49] as well as others, release late [02:49] we can't [02:49] why [02:49] sure we can [02:49] because we are tied to Ubuntu's schedule [02:49] better to release late than release crappy [02:49] why [02:50] because the Ubuntu Release Team builds our .iso [02:50] pcos, crunchbang, lubuntu, fluxbuntu, etc all have "other" release dates [02:50] so if they build the iso, then we'll have an iso [02:50] because they aren't official releases [02:51] they may not be "official" but they at least work [02:51] yes [02:51] and they have a following [02:51] well, I can't change that much right now [02:51] we just need to gain some interest in actually getting a release out [02:52] so what's holding up the release? [02:52] well, basically people working on the .iso [02:52] particularly the seeds, and testing the output [02:53] but for instance, we don't have a boot splash [02:53] I'm not sure if the boot menus are right [02:53] because the Ubuntu Release Team builds our .iso - they don't work on the .iso ? [02:53] and I know the contents of the Livefs are not right, but I've hopefully fixed that to some degree [02:54] the Ubuntu Release Team runs the scripts [02:54] it's up to us to make sure the contents are right [02:54] what script would they run if the iso wasn't ready? [02:54] the scripts that build the .iso [02:54] then they host them [02:55] but so far little has been done to actual put contents on the DVD [02:55] what script is currently? [02:56] there is a set of scripts [02:56] that build Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Ubuntu Netbook Remix [02:57] there are 3 main components that I can tell, the livefs builder, the debian-cd scripts to build the .iso, and ubuntu-cdimage to run it all and build the pages on cdimage.ubuntu.com [02:57] honestly, if there is lack of participation on ubuntu's side, and/or canonical, i'd seriously look at taking edubuntu into it's own relm. without some of the tools such as italc, saybayon, and a good base of docs i don't think you have anything [02:58] no no [02:58] most of the individuals coming into edubuntu that i've seen are not running stand alone installations. they are running network installation [02:58] the *only* participation has been on the Ubuntu side [02:58] the problem is in getting the Edubuntu side going [02:58] i thought there was a canonical employee doing some coding at one time [02:58] not for Edubuntu anymore [02:58] there was, correct [03:00] imho, putting a dvd out that is halfway there would be more damaging to edubuntu than putting out something that is more complete. if this means one has to push the release date back, then so be it. [03:01] that would allow edubuntu to get a real grip on what's it wants on the dvd, and create something that works [03:01] point me to the docs on getting it into ubuntu. [03:02] LaserJock: ? [03:03] well [03:03] I'm not sure pushing the release date will do much if people aren't going to do it [03:03] if it's a matter of pushing the release to make sure we get final stuff then we can look at doing that at that time [03:04] but I think it's doable now if people can push and contribute where possible [03:04] Officially Supported Derivatives [03:04] These derivatives are fully supported by Canonical and the Ubuntu community. [03:04] Kubuntu - Ubuntu with the K Desktop Environment [03:04] Edubuntu - Ubuntu for Education [03:04] notice the word "fully" [03:04] there is a double message there [03:04] well, this has nothing much to do with Canonical though [03:04] do you have a contribution document? [03:04] not really [03:05] fully supported by Canonical [03:05] it depends on what a person wants to contribute [03:05] http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/derivatives [03:05] Canonical is building our .isos for us and hosting them [03:05] and providing a huge amount of work into the core of Edubuntu [03:05] what is the core? [03:05] saybayon? [03:05] Ubuntu [03:06] i undestand they had decided to drop saybayaon [03:06] i.e. the kernel, Gnome, etc. [03:06] under that permise, crunchbang is fully supported [03:06] Debian dropped sabayon [03:06] no [03:06] anywho, moving on [03:06] crunchbang has separate archives, separate hosting and builds [03:06] as a person, i don't know how to contribute if i don't know what needs to be contributed to [03:07] a task list [03:07] perhaps on the wiki [03:07] some centralized location [03:08] I can try to work something up [03:08] some of it is I don't know exactly right now what all needs to be done [03:08] as I haven't testing anything myself [03:09] highvoltage mentioned that the DVD bootup was a bit funky [03:09] we need to track down if that's a general thing (i.e. in Ubuntu too) or an Edubuntu problem [03:10] so the dvd is made already ? [03:10] where have you been finding your info so far about the "scripts"? [03:11] * Ahmuck looking through the ubuntu derivities list. moon os just looks awesome [03:12] the DVD is built automatically daily [03:12] http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/ [03:16] so u just need someone to download and test? [03:17] right now that's definitely a help [03:17] hopefully as we find issues people can step up to help solve them [03:18] my problem is that I'm now working for the US military and don't have a lot of free time and I can't work on Ubuntu during work hours [03:18] so my usefulness is going to be limited [03:21] I'd like to cut down the size of the DVD [03:21] right now it's ~ 3.6GB [03:21] I think it should be half that [03:28] LaserJock: you promised to send a mail to the list when testing was needed [03:29] well, I'm still waiting to get the Edubuntu stuff in the live session [03:30] but after hearing what highvoltage said I think maybe we could start general testing of the install [03:30] perhaps the specific set of package we install is secondary to having a DVD that boots and installs :-) [03:30] ########------------ 43.4% 162.8 kBps 0:26 ETA [03:31] I just didn't want to waste people's time on something that's essentially the Ubuntu DVD [03:31] I did test the live CD *and* the install [03:31] ace_suares: and it all went well? [03:32] yes, i told you that (i think) when you first anounced the dvd a week or more ago [03:32] yes, i'm curious, what is different about the edubuntu dvd ? [03:32] I did a zsync now and there seems minimal difference [03:32] did you just say you had a new dvd with more edubuntu stuff in the install version or did i misread? [03:33] well, I thought I did but I didn't [03:33] today's build failed [03:33] oh okay [03:33] let me know when you have a good build [03:33] I had to get cjwatson to fix some stuff in the build scripts [03:33] I'll test immediately as bandwidth allows [03:33] anything after the 16th should be good to test [03:33] Alpha 6 is scheduled for release Thursday [03:33] ok please send a mail you might attract more testers ;-0 [03:34] so it's critical we test between now and then in order for an .iso to be released [03:34] bfn [03:34] yes, I was just waiting until I had one that I knew was different from Ubuntu's [03:34] Ahmuck: currently they are almost identical [03:35] Ahmuck: I've been working on trying to add in the Edubuntu bits but it's a bit of a slow process [03:45] i don't think you have enough devs to do the job [03:46] we'll see I guess [03:46] I'm not sure where all the people who were demanding a DVD went though :( [03:46] I was hoping they'd chip in a bit [03:47] * Ahmuck never would have demanded a dvd [03:47] i just got a dvd player last year [03:48] who is the target audience? [03:48] I dont' like how a DVD seems to automatically double the download size [03:48] that's why i don't download dvd's [03:48] schools, teachers, parents I suppose are the target [03:48] i like the 600mb cd size [03:49] there is a real difference in all three [03:49] yeah, it's unfortunate that CD is just too small to get many features in [03:49] all three audiences have different goals [03:49] yep [03:49] were more like a school [03:49] Education is a huge space [03:49] though i do teach classes [03:50] is there a reason edubuntu can't be a "mentoring" organization so to speak? [03:50] creating solutions? [03:50] rather than concentrating on distro making? [03:51] well, I'm not sure [03:51] I think some of the problem is that people want products [03:51] none of the computers i use edubuntu on have dvd players [03:51] i.e. people want a disk they can use [03:51] they are all 800mhz and 512mb ram [03:52] USB ports? [03:52] there are ubuntu based edu products out there [03:52] it has usb ports, yes [03:52] you can burn the .iso to a USB disk [03:53] I just don't know that Edubuntu can ditch the technical bits all together [03:53] it seems to me that it wouldn't be very helpful if we were a mentoring organization if we didn't care about the underlying software [03:53] and if we care about the underlying software it seems that we should care about delivering that software [03:54] would a parent be able to download an iso and create and iso usb disk ? [03:54] yes [03:55] none of mine would [03:55] from an Ubuntu computer it's easy [03:55] they have a hard time finding openoffice [03:55] it's System -> Administration -> USB Startup Disk Creator [03:55] hrm, i'm trying to be consise with my words [03:56] I know what you mean, but there's just not a lot we can do [03:56] I'd love to make the whole thing foolproof and super easy [03:57] but I have a hard enough time getting an .iso at all :( [03:58] A good network connection can let you just use Add/Remove [04:01] yes, i'm not sure why were not using that [04:01] when i originally came to edubuntu, i came because i thought it was classroom manamement. Later I realized that was ubuntu ltsp. [04:02] well, it *should* be classroom management in addition to LTSP, etc. [04:02] in some respect, i think canonical has a conflict of interest with ltsp because of thier other "pay" product [04:03] so i think edubuntu is still trying to define itself imho [04:03] I think Edubuntu is just trying to survive [04:03] a lot of educators are looking for a turn key classroom system [04:03] Ahmuck: btw, you can use Add/Remove for Edubuntu stuff [04:04] I added in goodies to the Education menu [04:04] it was my understanding that when edubuntu chose the dvd side, that it was consumer based. however i'm not sure what was gained with a dvd if it's no different than the ubuntu dvd [04:04] well it certainly should be different than the Ubuntu DVD [04:04] it's just that we're using the Ubuntu DVD as a base [04:04] someone suggested i sit down and draft framework (which i haven't done). it looks like it may be that time [04:04] and not much work has been done to make it different [04:06] if Edubuntu could narrow down to a specific focus or "definition" I think it would help [04:06] that's what i've been saying all along [04:06] sure [04:06] it needs to define itself [04:06] we've all been saying that [04:06] so ... what's holding it up? [04:06] but nobody has really been able to do it, it seems [04:07] ah, that i can do. it'll take a couple of weeks [04:07] but there is no way it would be done before karamic [04:07] moreover, someone had made a nice diagram breaking down edubuntu and it's services [04:08] honestly i think you could offer choices upon boot up, server + ltsp, server + ldap + nfs, standalone (for parents), classroom [04:09] but one would have to break it down and do bit by bit. [04:09] like over the course of a year [04:10] i like the fact that saybayon is working. i wasn't to sure something else shouldn't have been done elsewise, but now that it's working, i won't knock it. [04:10] right, I'd like to have those bootup choices [04:10] well, i think that a foundation needs to be decided on. the apps can go on a seperate cd like before or as a complete dvd [04:11] i think once a foundation is decided upon, one can build from there. i get the feeling edubuntu is going with every change in wind direction currently [04:13] i'd like to propose looking at the target audiences and deciding what needs to be done to satisfy each one, starting with the easiest first, selecting the hardest next. [04:13] what do you mean by foundation? [04:13] well, the foundation would be it's direction. a cd that one could use with those choices, turn key, for a classroom educator [04:13] and/or parent [04:13] i know a lot of work is being done with old pc's in africa, phillipines, etc. [04:14] i've got a couple of reports on my desk. were looking for anything that is p3 or better to ship and set up linux computer labs in africa [04:14] but when it ships, it has to work, out of box so to speak [04:15] but I don't know what a foundation would be if you've got server, LTSP, and desktop choices [04:15] they seem so different that I'm not sure what they would have in common [04:16] the commonality is edu based [04:18] i'm not here to promote another distro, or derivative, but qimo is an excellent example of a stand alone derivative that works from a parental perspective. i can give it out at fairs and promotional etc. knowing it's going to work and promote edu [04:18] and it's on cd [04:18] right, but it's fairly limited in scope it seems to me [04:18] how so? [04:19] does it have all the server bits like LTSP, LDAP, etc.? [04:19] kids' loved it at the two county fairs (on was the largest county fair in the state outside of the state fair) [04:19] it's not a server distro [04:19] I don't think it's got all that many apps [04:19] it's an edu parental distro [04:19] no, I'm just illustrating [04:19] like i said, the kids' loved it [04:19] it was easy to install [04:20] if you focus down, then yeah, it's relatively easy to create a great product [04:20] it's on my machines for backup purposes in the event the ltsp server goes down [04:20] and quite frankly, ltsp has been a headache for me. it doesn't really work here [04:20] isn't this what edubuntu was attempting to achieve with the dvd ? [04:21] what? [04:21] k, what's limited about it? [04:22] about Qimo or Edubuntu? [04:22] actually you said it, defined it already [04:22] LaserJock> does it have all the server bits like LTSP, LDAP, etc.? [04:23] if this edubuntu, why a dvd? (though for karamic it's to late) [04:23] one only needs a ubuntu server cd with server type of options [04:23] and an edu app cd [04:23] but people didn't like that [04:23] what people? [04:23] we had that for 3-4 releases [04:24] or maybe 2-3 [04:24] users who came here, on the mailing list, also a company that sells Edubuntu computers [04:24] people were expecting something like qimo [04:24] nobody liked the 2 Cd thing [04:24] surely were not here for companies selling computers [04:25] a lot of users have come in here and on the list that were teachers and educators trying to set up "labs" for classrooms and gave it up [04:25] because of lack of management software [04:26] right, but people were coming here confused [04:26] because they didn't know how to to get Edubuntu [04:26] however, sbalneav or is it stgraber has fixed some of that with saybayon [04:26] sbalneav [04:27] so we had potential contributors come and say they would work on Edubuntu if it was a DVD and not a CD [04:27] imho, qimo fills the parental side [04:27] so we decided that the Addon CD just wasn't work and went for the DVD [04:27] right [04:27] edubuntu then only needs to fill the server side, with classroom, student, instructor management bits [04:27] Edubuntu has always leaned more on the classroom server side [04:28] i've never cared for the dvd, but never protestes either [04:28] I don't like them either but I don't see a good alternative [04:28] i think i'd just provide a link to qimo for people wanting stand alone edu *ubuntu [04:28] and concentrate on the server side [04:28] well [04:28] I guess [04:29] they can either use aptitude or download the extra cd. it's the same number of bytes [04:29] I'd rather see Qimo sort of folded into an Edubuntu "family" [04:29] honestly, they have put a lot of work into that establishing in it's own right [04:29] yeah [04:29] it's a hard situation [04:29] asking would be nice, but demanding would be rude [04:29] I love what they've done [04:30] but I wish they could have done it within Edubuntu [04:30] so, let edubuntu concentrate on the classroom side. what needs to be done to make a "classroom" distro [04:30] imho, edubuntu has been hard to work with [04:30] I guess some of that's me [04:30] I'm not a classroom server guy [04:30] but your audience is [04:30] I don't do LTSP, I don't run a classroom, etc. [04:31] I'm interested in educational software [04:31] from a biz standpoint, you always cater to your audience [04:31] right [04:31] educational software is getting used in "labs" [04:31] classrooms [04:31] they are your target audience right now [04:31] it's been interesting to watch lab participation [04:31] but I've always liked the parental, university audience :-) [04:31] not so much interested in labs particularly [04:32] but that's where I think edubuntu needs people who really get the audience [04:32] part of any leadership is looking beyond personal preferences and looking towards group goals [04:32] sure [04:32] but it's difficult to do that when 1) there's not much of a group and 2) you don't have a lot of experience in the other areas [04:33] I haven't tried qimo... What does it offer, except for visual/interface stuff? [04:33] if edubuntu can get a turn key server that works, you won't have trouble attracting an audience [04:33] I didn't mind it when I was just adding some university/science/edu app ideas to the big edubuntu pot [04:33] alkisg: put it in front of kids [04:34] i litterally had kids coming back all night long at our county fair to see if anyboyd had beaten their tux math scores [04:34] and if they had, they were in there again trying to get the higher score [04:34] i didn't realize how effective that bottom bar was at getting attention and naviagating applications [04:35] How is that related to qimo? Because it preinstalls tux math? [04:36] * alkisg doesn't know qimo and is just asking here [04:36] i didn't have to do anything except install and setup [04:36] install and then setup at the fair. i only had an hour before the show [04:37] So it basically offers icons/themes and other visual apps, and a selection of packages? [04:37] the presentation was part of a local lug presentation. interestingly enough, two private schools became interested in the project [04:37] they had old computers they wanted to use [04:38] didn't want to buy new ones. the show blocker was ... no classroom manamgement, tracking individual scores, etc. [04:38] and honestly the structure is there in ubuntu now, however it's going to take some "tweaking" to get it in our schools [04:38] Edubuntu has tux math, it's a matter of a more appealing UI? [04:38] So qimo offers a tool for classroom management? [04:39] * alkisg wishes the qimo site had more info... :( [04:39] alkisg: not that i know of currently [04:39] LaserJock: not entirely. remember that "add-on" cd. setting up currently meant, installing ubuntu and then waiting for edubuntu download, and then installing apps from it [04:39] So how can qimo help me as a teacher? I don't really care about a preinstalled tux math, I can easily install that after the initial installation... [04:40] Ahmuck: well, that's why we went to the DVD [04:40] (I mean in general, any set of apps - unless of course they come preconfigured as part of the installation) [04:40] alkisg: correct! qimo is a stand alone in the home distro from what i've been able to gather [04:40] which is where edubuntu needs to fill the gap [04:40] Ahmuck: so, moving to a dvd == a standalone distro, is a good thing, right? [04:41] (for edubuntu) [04:41] i don't have dvd's in any of my desktops [04:41] its' a mixed blessing [04:42] a majority of people in town that have computers are using windows. no spyware, malware problems as a subscribed service that checks those works very well [04:43] those that don't or have the lower end stuff "windows 2000", etc. and what i can give away without having to buy a license [04:43] i'm rambling now [04:43] Ahmuck: you have desktop pcs that are good enought to run edubuntu, but they don't have dvd drives? (and they have cd drives)? What are their specs? [04:43] 800mhz, 256 to 512mb ram [04:44] Ah, you put a lot of ram afterwards... [04:44] we advertise to recycle, then refurb and dump em back to the community. i have parents that refuse windows because linux is so stable [04:44] I think in this situation it's easy to net-install edubuntu [04:45] yes [04:45] Most labs I've seen here in Greece are either incapable of properly running *ubuntu (e.g. 800mhz / 128 ram) _or_ do have a dvd rom [04:46] and i DON'T have any interest in paying for windows when i can use linux [04:46] alkisg: some busineses here are still using 15" CRT [04:46] Most labs here still use 15" crt :) [04:46] heh heh [04:46] (or 14!!!) [04:47] yes, i've seen those as well [04:47] But those generally can't run edubuntu standalone, so they have to work as thin clients [04:47] honestly, the stand alone qimo desktops run better than the ltsp [04:47] here [04:47] In my experience, if the client is below 1GHz, it runs better as a thin client [04:48] i'd like so much to dump ltsp and go with centralized login and storage [04:48] E.g. clients so slow can't even play videos on youtube, but they can do so as ltsp clients [04:48] not getting away with direction, i've not looked at sugar yet either, but plan to [04:49] well, with the max ram the 800mhz pc's do well [04:49] Do you compare with ltsp on gigabit networks, or on 100mbsp? The difference is huge...! [04:50] When I first tried ltsp on 100mbps network, I was somewhat disappointed.. [04:50] so ur not in favor of a dvd ? [04:50] i'm on a gigabyte network [04:51] i did make sure of that [04:51] I am in favor of a dvd. I don't have clients that are capable to run edubuntu and that they don't have dvd drives... [04:51] gigabyte switch, cat6 cabling, etc. [04:51] And the clients, they do have gigabit nics? [04:51] i have wondered if my switch has been the problem [04:51] no, the clients have the standard nics [04:51] they came with [04:52] Then the whole network functions at 100mbps... [04:52] ...*unless* you specially took care to disable flow control. [04:52] I also had this problem. Got a new gigabit switch, a gigabit card on the server, cables etc,... [04:52] on the switch ? [04:53] i've got a gigabyte card on the server [04:53] switch, cables, server nic are all gigabyte [04:53] ...and I used netperf to monitor the bandwith. I *always* was < 100 mbps measured on the server [04:53] clients are standard nics [04:53] So all my expences were for nothing [04:53] I bought all the gigabit stuff and I still had 100mbps network speed :( [04:54] Then, 3-4 months after, there was a main in the ltsp-discuss list that mentioned flow control [04:54] because of the clients [04:54] Yes [04:54] where did you set flow control, at the server side or the switch? [04:54] or get new nics for the clients [04:54] Fortunately I had an intel gigabit on the server and I was able to disable flow control on the server, because my switch didn't support disabling it [04:55] After that, I used netperf again to monitor the bandwidth [04:55] i suspect my switch does [04:55] and server does as well [04:55] I now had 1000mbps measured on the server. 10 times faster!!! [04:55] Ahmuck: even if it does, you may have to disable it from the switch web interfaces [04:55] was this causing problems with firefox/flash? [04:55] Huge problems [04:55] 100 mbps is barely enough for openoffice [04:56] if i could get those issues resolved, i might not hate ltsp so much [04:56] I couldn't even surf the web with 100 mbps... nor use gimp etc [04:56] were using scribus, gimp, openoffice, and firefox. however, some apps just don't work well [04:56] at this point i'm actually looking at buying a new server [04:56] Ahmuck: if you try with 1 single client, with no other users logged on, do you think it's better than when e.g. 10 users are simultaneously working in your lab? [04:57] no difference from what i can tell [04:57] well, almost. there is some difference sometimes [04:57] And still with 1 single client, the performance is poor for you? [04:57] i only have 7 seats [04:57] on certian apps, yes [04:57] E.g. what happens if you try to view a dvd from a client? [04:57]